India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Apr 2012 22:23

PratikDas wrote:
Theo's position is that India has all the electricity it needs. Indians are not using it efficiently. This is bogus propaganda and the use of the Chennai factory is a strawman.

theo is bang on target
India's energy deficit at current generation base is only 11-13%. We are certainly not using it efficiently as out AT&C losses are 14-62% against 5-6% of SOKO. Energy Conservation potential is 25% or more. As Energy intensity of GDP /our economy increases we have to improve energy efficiency of GDP as well. And to call it a bogus propaganda shows that you have not studied the numbers properly. Please visit relevant sites giving these details in Indian context. Chennai factory is only one such example. We are fixing targets for all such high energy consumers the targets for savings so they become more efficient or face penalty. If they achieve more savings then that could be traded.Lets hope it works.

For perspective

On the demand side, there is a considerable scope for enhancing the efficiency of energy use in major energy consuming sectors. The industrial sector consumes 51.4% (as fuel and feedstock) of the total energy consumption in India, with some eight industries accounting for 80% of the total industrial use of energy (TEDDY 2002 4). The energy use per unit output in these industries is high when compared with other countries, indicating the large gains possible from improvements in energy intensity.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Apr 2012 22:27

PratikDas wrote:Theo's position is that India has all the electricity it needs. Indians are not using it efficiently. This is bogus propaganda and the use of the Chennai factory is a strawman. People in western countries use snow blowers to create artificial snow for leisure when mother nature doesn't provide enough and somehow India is supposed to use every kWh of energy frugally at the expense of highly energy-efficient but costly building materials. I've lived outside India long enough to know that when people build homes, they think about diverting funds to square-footage, not thicker insulation. Why should India work differently

This is not my position at all. India will have to be frugal for our sake.

We don't have access to cheap coal and Uranium. We have some gas and need to find the rest. But with 1.2 Billion people on 2.5% of the earths land I don't see any situation where we are swimming in resources. We will always be starved of resources. It is how we figure out how to be productive within that circumstance that will determine our future. Massaland can be profligate because they sit on wide open spaces and easy coal. we don't. To thingk that our aim is to be that profligate is just going against reality.

And we know how the square footage race ended right!Why would you want Indians to blindly follow the west in stupidity as well. And yes we can be that rich and grow wealthy while the rest of the world is profligate. That factory in Chennai produces real wealth with little energy and no straw or even strawmen or strawwomen (strawperson?). That cardboard box with gigantic square footage and no insulation destroys wealth.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 11 Apr 2012 23:10

Theo, it is our decision to make. In fact, I would say that it is our situation to manage and improve over time. Not one to be enforced by another country or bloc.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Apr 2012 23:12

PratikDas wrote:
Sanku wrote:Please revisit, you will find that quote gets messed up not in my post but later.
This is your post. I didn't quote Satya but you [inadvertently] made it look like I did. It's not a big deal for me.

Oh dear,

I did mess up.

Apologies, and thanks for being a good sport about it.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 11 Apr 2012 23:20

chaanakya wrote:We are fixing targets for all such high energy consumers the targets for savings so they become more efficient or face penalty. If they achieve more savings then that could be traded.Lets hope it works.

Who is "we" and who hopes it works?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Apr 2012 23:23

chaanakya wrote:
Amber G. wrote: "Those with a mind for real-world solutions know that this transformation can be attained only with nuclear power in a central role...,
Despite all this tamasha from Nuclear Jehadis (term coined by Amit , methinks, you can read Nuclear experts instead) ) .

Since we are talking of "real world solutions"; in the real world, when a lobby of a particular industry meets, it inadvertently pitches for 400% diversion of all resources in the world towards itself because then it will over next two weeks create perpetual motion machines.

That is a typical sell. Ever heard a conference say "we are limited, please look at alternatives. We really arent cost effective, please cut down our funding and spend wisely else where"

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Apr 2012 23:37

PratikDas wrote:
chaanakya wrote:We are fixing targets for all such high energy consumers the targets for savings so they become more efficient or face penalty. If they achieve more savings then that could be traded.Lets hope it works.
Who is "we" and who hopes it works?

MOP/GOI

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Apr 2012 23:39

PratikDas wrote:Theo, it is our decision to make. In fact, I would say that it is our situation to manage and improve over time. Not one to be enforced by another country or bloc.

I agree and that decision is ours and ours alone.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Apr 2012 09:03

its absurd to think that per capita power requirements won't rise and that we have surplus capacity ..bla..bla...

In 10 years time we ll have a nominal per capita income of 8k-10k USD..Every household will own a television a refrigerator and a microwave.

We need enhance intra-city public transport. In the next 2 decades 50 or more of our cities will have a metro rail in place or under construction..

Our manufacturing output is supposed to increase by 4-6 folds in the period..

We need a great deal of electricity for the purpose.. We may never need the American per cap consumption. But we surely need the brazil or the italian level ...unless of course someone can suggest a lean mean green djinn solution..

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Apr 2012 12:27

chaanakya wrote: We are fixing targets for all such high energy consumers the targets for savings so they become more efficient or face penalty. If they achieve more savings then that could be traded.Lets hope it works.

What will stop Indian consumers importing goods from China or some other country where they couldn't give a damn, thereby bypassing the need for those Indian industries altogether?

Australian businessmen are on record saying that it is much easier setting up a business in China than in Australia, not because Australia doesn't have good infrastructure but because Australia has onerous regulations and difficult labour laws. Similary a high energy consumption penalty in India will simply push manufacturing overseas in those industries. What then? Sit on the laurels?

And if you're thinking of stringent import duties then what about Hillary and WTO throwing a tantrum?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Apr 2012 13:37

gakakkad wrote:...unless of course someone can suggest a lean mean green djinn solution..

Sir ji
Green is lean was assumed. But UK experience ( see few pages earlier ) shows that without subsidies green is dead!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Apr 2012 13:47

IPratikDas

am sure you are not supporting wasteful or inefficient use of energy at cheaper prices. If India can afford it , well do it. I don't think India can afford it. China advantage is cheap hydro power and probably subsidised too and chepest labour and poorer labour conditions. How long wil it continue remains to be seen.
Double standards of western countries and some of the posters are well known, They want goods at cheaper prices and shift production base to inefficient economies which may emit more GHG yet they want less CO2.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Apr 2012 14:06

I'm suggesting we not take the economy down with the greenhouse gases. If that means we use nuclear, solar, wind, gobar gas fusion, or hamster treadmills for us to remain competitive then so be it. And coal, how could I forget.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Apr 2012 15:14

PratikDas wrote:I'm suggesting we not take the economy down with the greenhouse gases. If that means we use nuclear, solar, wind, gobar gas fusion, or hamster treadmills for us to remain competitive then so be it. And coal, how could I forget.

Quite agree.

However do note that improvements in energy efficiency are for me at least, primarily a economic and geo-strategic argument. I would dare say it is the same for most people who talk about industries being more frugal in Indian context.

In fact I am most suspicious of the "CO2 lobby"; with arguments being made like "any sacrifice needed to save a single ounce of CO2 is worth it. CO2 OMG, Global warming OMG, xyz OMG "

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 12 Apr 2012 15:32

In the light of recent posts in this thread (such as Theo_Fidel's Post of 11 Apr 2012) on energy conservation and an example thereof about BorgWarner factory at Chennai (European-in-India?), the following links/quotes bringing out energy conservation measures achieved by DAE in Indian Heavy Water Plants may be of interest.

1. Article by Dr K.S Parthasarathy in Deccan Herald, in 2009 India's heavy water project comes of age

India is the largest manufacturer of heavy water in the world, perhaps the only country which has mastered the two processes (hydrogen sulphide-water bi-thermal and ammonia -hydrogen mono-thermal) to produce it. HWB is developing a technology at Baroda using water — ammonia exchange process to operate a heavy water plant independently of fertiliser plants. The cost of energy constitutes 70-80 per cent of the operating cost of HWPs.

HWB could reduce over the last decade, specific energy (energy needed to produce a kg of heavy water) consumption by about 36 per cent by systematic energy conservation measures.

2. Hazira heavy Water Plant:

The isotopic exchange process is energy intensive since enrichment requires is of the order of 9000 times and handling of large quantity of feed stock. However the specific energy consumption at Hazira is lowest amongst all the Heavy Water Plants in India.

India is the only country in the World where this process is successfully employed for production of Heavy Water.

3. Presentation on Energy Conservation by Dr. S. Thangarathnam, Member TN Electricity Regulatory Commission

Slide 20 of 39
Heavy Water Board is an independent unit under the Department of Atomic Energy. India is the second largest producer of heavy water. It is a highly energy intensive unit with 70 % production cost. This high technology under went many challenges and setbacks. Having mastered the technology from seventies till nineties there was a paradigm shift in the focus from “ production at any cost” to “production with least cost”. Tremendous efforts were taken and extensive energy audits were carried out in the plants to reduce wasteful energy and the plants were re-optimized to operate at highest possible efficiency.
Extensive energy saving measures were carried out in waste heat recovery system, recycling of effluent water, re-optimizing of hydraulic loop by impeller trimming and by the use of variable speed drive, re-optimizing of cooling water and refrigeration system using innovative and integrated system designs.

Data pertaining to energy savings achieved in the HWPs, in tabular form, may be found in Slide 30 of 39.

4. Article in The Hindu Bussiness Line about a scheme for energy efficiency notificatified on March 30, 2012 by Ministry of Power and Bureau of Energy Efficiency (BEE). This not specific to HWB; rather, according to the article, applicable to 478 identified industries.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Apr 2012 17:14

Neela wrote:
gakakkad wrote:...unless of course someone can suggest a lean mean green djinn solution..
Sir ji
Green is lean was assumed. But UK experience ( see few pages earlier ) shows that without subsidies green is dead!

green djinn onleee.

On a serious not , "eco friendly" designs can at most save 10% power. If we reduce our t&d loses , which by all means we should do , than we can prevent wastage of upto 15% of our total capacity..

But in spite of that our per cap consumption is 5-6 times less sub tropical countries like Brazil ...

ergo we need to increase our total capacity by 5-6 times...

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 12 Apr 2012 17:58

Just to provide an idea of how the 5 to 6 times increase would look like. India would be close to what china consumes. And a snap shot of how china got there. Please pay close attention to what the energy mix matrix (draw your own conclusions of what it means) of china looks like in second link. Apologize for the formatting. Easier to look at the link.
This is just a snap shot. Is India going to be able to magically change the energy mix matrix?
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/ene ... onsumption

Extracted text electricity consumption:
United States 21.7%
China 19.3%
Japan 4.8%
Russia 4.8%
India 3.2%
Germany 3.1%
Canada 3%
France 2.5%
Brazil 2.3%

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/China/India/Energy

Energy stats: China vs India

Chinese Energy stats Indian Energy stats

Coal consumption 1,310,000,000 339,000,000

Coal > Production 2,204,729,000 ton 407,013,000 ton

Commercial energy use 904.93 494.03

Electricity > Production by source > Fossil fuel 80.2% 81.7%

Electricity > Production by source > Nuclear 1.2% 3.4%

Gasoline prices 0.66 0.98

Geothermal power use 8,724 699

Natural gas reserves 1,290,000,000,000 cubic feet 542,400,000,000 cubic feet

Nuclear energy consumption 25.9 terawatt-hours 19.4 terawatt-hours

Oil Consumption > Thousand barrels daily 6,684 2,555

Oil imports > Net 1,600,000 barrels per day 1,200,000 barrels per day

Oil reserves 18,260,000,000 barrels 5,700,000,000 barrels

Primary Energy Consumption > Million tonnes oil equivalent 1,386.2 375.8

Traditional fuel consumption 5.7% 20.7%

Uranium > Production 730 ton 230 ton

Wall plugs > Voltage 220 V 240 V

Wind energy installation 764 MW 2,985 MW

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Apr 2012 18:02

India overtook russia last year.. we are adding close to 30k MW every year..(THATS twice the total capacity of porkiland

) ....we ll read chines levels in 15 years time if all goes well..

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Apr 2012 19:50

gakakkad wrote: On a serious not , "eco friendly" designs can at most save 10% power. If we reduce our t&d loses , which by all means we should do , than we can prevent wastage of upto 15% of our total capacity..

But in spite of that our per cap consumption is 5-6 times less sub tropical countries like Brazil ...

ergo we need to increase our total capacity by 5-6 times...

OTOH imagine if we can save 15% of our current output/need (say X), what will be the net amount which is 15% of future needs? It would be 15% of 5-6X. That is 75%-90% of X.

So if we are frugal, we can for the future save energy comparable to our entire production today.

Put in that perspective, thats huge saving isnt it?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Apr 2012 20:08

OTOH imagine if we can save 15% of our current output/need (say X), what will be the net amount which is 15% of future needs? It would be 15% of 5-6X. That is 75%-90% of X.

So if we are frugal, we can for the future save energy comparable to our entire production today.

Put in that perspective, thats huge saving isnt it?

Thats why it is important to prevent power wastage and add capacity simultaneously .. Wherever possible underground wiring must be done.. THe T&D loses in Mumbai are less than 5% , due to underground wiring..Private companies can be made charge of transmission and distribution , and minimization of lose should be made an incentive..

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Apr 2012 21:33

gakakkad wrote:
OTOH imagine if we can save 15% of our current output/need (say X), what will be the net amount which is 15% of future needs? It would be 15% of 5-6X. That is 75%-90% of X.

So if we are frugal, we can for the future save energy comparable to our entire production today.

Put in that perspective, thats huge saving isnt it?

Thats why it is important to prevent power wastage and add capacity simultaneously .. Wherever possible underground wiring must be done.. THe T&D loses in Mumbai are less than 5% , due to underground wiring..Private companies can be made charge of transmission and distribution , and minimization of lose should be made an incentive..

I agree with you.
To supplement your point, though news is little old but relevant here
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... nt/309397/

State government-owned power distribution company, Mahavitaran, has managed to reduced its transmission and distribution losses (T&D) by 6.5 per cent in 2007 leading to a rise in the discom’s average monthly revenue from Rs 1,200 crore to Rs 1,700 crore. With this, the company expects to breakeven by the end of current fiscal year.

Addressing a press conference, Mahavitaran managing director AB Pandey said, “We were always reminded about Maharashtra’s high percentage of T&D losses, which stood over 32 per cent in 2005, and were always compared with Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat on this front. But today, we stand in the league of Gujarat and Andhra. While our T&D losses are now around 22.35 per cent, Gujarat’s losses are around 21.6 per cent and Andhra’s at 22.70 per cent.”

In the year 2005-06, when the erstwhile state electricity board was trifurcated and three separate companies for generation, transmission and distribution were created, Mahavitaran’s losses stood at Rs 300 crore. This was reduced to Rs 100 crore in 2006-07.

And yes we need to add substantial capacity as our needs are growing. But Nuclear wont be anywhere near 100%.

as dreamt by some.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Apr 2012 21:37

While Mumbai has reduced T&D losses,it does not generate much power. Maharashtra T&D losses are high at about 34%.
Bihar is 36% and UP in 35% TN 17% ( all approx in nearest digits)
Amazing.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 12 Apr 2012 22:55

While some are busby causing scare techniques, calling Indian Scientists idiots and nuclear jeehadis...enabling ..Sri Lanka to be afraid of nuclear plants in India ...
Sri Lanka-India resolution row goes nuclear

Statements like these may look very familiar to some posted in brf ...by those who think Busby is their hero and members of scientific community are nuclear jihadis...

Villagers said that in the event of a Fukushima-type disaster, a rapid evacuation would be impossible as over one million people live within a 30-kilometer radius of the plant. ..

{why blame them, when millions of deaths due to radiation, Sr, seeping everywhere, Fish dying of fission (

) is repeated ad-absurdum }

If there is any doubt, about motives of such people ..please also read .. from the above story...

Sri Lankans are hailing support Colombo received from its "true friends", China and Pakistan at the UNHRC. They are saying that India must be made to pay a price for its treachery. ..

Jai Ho!

While Rest of the world moves on .. (xpost as it is really important for India to watch the world)
(From main-stream media in US )
NuHub Launches Partnership with NuScale to Revolutionize the Nuclear Power Industry

COLUMBIA, S.C., April 11, 2012 -- /PRNewswire/ -- NuHub announced today that it has partnered with NuScale Power, LLC, which is developing a modular, scalable commercial nuclear power technology, to recruit the nation's first small modular nuclear reactor (SMR) models to South Carolina

Even NYtimes grudgingly has a head line:

Nuclear Power’s Death Somewhat Exaggerated

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Apr 2012 23:16

from NYTimes Link above
Looks like it is on ventilator . But for hope in India and China, it would have long gone????
Don't understand why Unkil gace permission to build only one in last 30 years despite indian sidekicks of great scientists supporting loudly and explaining this to their Amirkhan students. Are their students morons ??

NUCLEAR energy is going through an odd patch. It refuses to die, but it does not prosper.

Senator Lamar Alexander, a Tennessee Republican who has called for building 100 reactors in the next few years, told a conference of industry specialists in late March that the long-ballyhooed “nuclear renaissance” did not really exist anymore. Now, he said, it is an “awakening to the awareness of nuclear.”

the 33rd anniversary of the Three Mile Island accident, a few weeks after the Nuclear Regulatory Commission gave permission to build a power reactor for the first time in more than 30 years, for the twin Vogtle reactors near Augusta, Ga.

The industry’s three great recent stumbling blocks, the Fukushima accident of March 2011, the exceptionally low price of natural gas and a recession that has stunted demand for power, mock the idea that dozens of new reactors are waiting in the wings. But in an era of worry over global warming, support is plentiful for at least keeping a toe in the water.

If the nation’s 104 reactors, all but one finished by the 1980s, were eventually replaced, it would be with equipment that has fewer moving parts and fewer ways to get into accidents. But they may not be replaced because the competition from other sources of electricity is strong.

And the Fukushima meltdowns did not help.

How the phrase "Meltdowns" have become so common place while describing FUK-D, once derided upon.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 13 Apr 2012 01:41

^^^ Looks like sarcasm of mentioning NY times (eg my use of "grudgingly") was lost to some.
For those who do not know, NYtimes's ayatollah's oped is at par...In 1974 NYtimes oped was ..someone wondering why starving people will work on nuclear energy (or defense ).. all they have to do is to rein in hindu fundamentalists and give up cashemer, and stop burning brides.... (no I am not making this up)..Remember, even Diwali terrorists attack in Delhi was described as "religious riots". ..(NY times was one of the biggest critic of US-India Nuke deal)

Post Fukushima, when one sensible article appeared in NYtimes, and I praised it in Brf, GuruPrabhu commented something to the effect "so so choohe kha ke, billi chali haj ko.."

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 13 Apr 2012 02:06

disha wrote: Coming back to the limitations of the liquid metal design, they have been mastered already., the challenge is to scale it up in to several hundered megawatts and gigawatts range. Before I go on further, the liquid metal design were first adapted for nuclear submarines. In fact several Gen IV reactors are liquid metal (some form of it - either Na, NaK or lead-bismuth) based.

...FYI Russia is planning to have first demonstration model based of lead-bismuth.. around 2017.
See for example:
Russian plans first SVBR-100 lead bismuth modular fast reactor for 2017

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 13 Apr 2012 03:05

chaanakya wrote:...indian sidekicks of great scientists supporting loudly and explaining this to their Amirkhan students....
.....How the phrase "Meltdowns" have become so common place while describing FUK-D, once derided upon.

Chanaakya,

I'm not sure said sidekick is Indian citizen. Maybe Indian origin person advocating for foreign paycheck. I have never seen any great love for India or concern for its future, just a sales opportunity. Aim is to stiff India and scoot back to safe massa suburb. No skin in the game. If you have property near a nuclear plant as I do you will be more concerned.

And yes there was a organized demand to ban anyone mentioning 'meltdown' at one point. Talk about Jihadism.
------------------------------------------------------

That said it is interesting that the argument has turned towards efficiency.

Annual per capita consumption for India 2012 ~ 1000 kwhr / year
Annual per capita consumption for USA ~ 1300 kwhr / year

I have done some preliminary numbers to boost India standard of living.

Refrigerator (No auto defrost) Energystar : 250 kw/year
A/C single window type in R-25 insulated bedroom alone 1/6 ton : 300 kw/year
TV LCD : 200 kw/year
60 watt scroll fan 4x as efficient as Khaitan : 150 kw/year
LPG Stove.
Lighting (2) 13 watt (60 watt eq) CFL : 30 kw/year
laptop : 40 kw/year

Total of 980 KW per person per year. There is plenty of lee way as I have counted everyone as having a fridge & A/C.

If say 50% of consumption goes to Industrial/retail/etc We will need about 980x2 = 1960 kw per person per year. With a decent lifestyle. We can do this because we mostly don't need heating and our dry climate allows us to live well without central A/C.

This would work out to a total capacity needed in the range of 400,000-500,000 MW.

This is doable as a nation. I'm dubious about 2000 GWH of capacity or even 4000 GWH. Failure to get there would mean the fat cats hoard all the electricity. We must force efficiency on everone in our resource starved situation to make sure everyone has access.

Optionals

Clothes dryer : 1000 kw/year
Washer : 200 kw/year
Electric stove/oven : 400 kw/yr
Electric heat : 1,500 kw/year (not needed?)

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 07:41

@ THEO household electricity consumption only accounts for 14% of the American electricity production.. Most electricity consumption is by industries and other things.Your calculationg annual household requirements and saying that only 980KW/person is needed is lahori logic.. Because households will constitute at most 10-15% of consumption.

.India has USD 3 trillion/ANNUM worth of manufacturing in the waiting , 1000s of hospitals /schools /colleges about to be constructed etc...We ll need a lot of electricity for these..

http://www.eia.gov/emeu/reps/enduse/er01_us.html

U.S. HOUSEHOLD ELECTRICITY CONSUMPTION IN 2001

Electricity consumption by 107 million U.S. households in 2001 totaled 1,140 billion kWh. The most significant end uses were central air-conditioning and refrigerators, each of which accounted for about 14 percent of the U.S. total.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 07:55

chaanakya wrote:
So you agree that 25% could be saved. That's about 45GW load savings at current generation.

Your point about 5-6 Times increase in capacity would make sense if you provide timeline.

For your information India plans about 1300-1700 GW of which Coal would be about >900 GW capacity by 2032.

Now if we are efficient economy though not bothering about CO2 Lobby here and there we would save 25% of it in avoided capacity addition i.e. 325 GW at lower end. To put things in perspective , much to the chagrin of Nuclear jehadis and bookish sidekick of great scientists , under forced Nuclear only 89 GW or so would be planned.

One needs realworld solutions not some wet dream of farticle fyzicysts.

Energy Mix and place of Nuclear option is one issue, safety concerns are another issue, local population consent is another, fuel availability is also important, indegenous technology is important issue. To discuss all these and point out deficiencies does not make one against Nuclear or Coal or Renewables or Lobbyist for one or other form of energy. Policy planners does not have such luxury as afforded by farticle fyzicysts.

First thing- You ant-nuclear folks keep trying to bring t&d loses in every discussion..Its almost as if NPP is creating those loses ..and that by using solar/wind/ t&d loses would magically improve..Lahori logic.. our t&d has to improve whether the power source is nuclear,thermal or hamster running on a treadmill..

Second thing- Nuclear investment is for beyond 2030 .. Everyone here knows that by a huge fraction of our energy production will be thermal till 2030..But research in nuclear energy is the only way we can sustain a future beyond that.. Whether India invests in nuclear or not other countries will do so. At present we have much better capabilities than other countries. We have to cash in on our man power and technical skills and keep developing our nuclear technology..

Third thing - You use of polemics rivals uday kumar.. By opposing Indian nuclear program , you are supporting china and pakistan..

Let me summarise the events in the past 12 months from the political perspective ..

Approximate timeline..

June 11-- noises against knpp start..
july 11 - murder of the entire top leadership of the russian atomic agency..
july-december -protest continue with possible LTTE supporters entering the protest
January- finally the government acts against the protestors
March - Karunanidhi pressurises MMS to vote against sl
April - SL begins making noises against KNPP..

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Apr 2012 08:37

Here is electrical energy flow from production to consumption for 2010 in us. Almost 1/3rd of gross production and consumption is for residential sector.
http://205.254.135.7/totalenergy/data/a ... agram5.cfm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... w_2009.png

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 08:42

JwalaMukhi wrote:Here is electrical energy flow from production to consumption for 2010 in us. Almost 1/3rd of gross production and consumption is for residential sector.
http://205.254.135.7/totalenergy/data/a ... agram5.cfm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... w_2009.png

this is energy , not electricity ... energy = electricity + fuel used in cars + gas used in cooking/heating ...

the link I gave was from the US govt website which deals with electricity onlee. since..

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Apr 2012 08:46

Saar, it is electicity only purely. If for some reason, the first link is not working here is the pdf that would help.
http://205.254.135.7/totalenergy/data/a ... sec8_3.pdf

BTW: If one follows the electricity generation even in the wikipedia graph from livermore labs, one can easily trace electricity only. Oh well..

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Apr 2012 08:49

Further more, here is how the residential would break up. Lot of it will be used in space heating even in commercial setup. Almost 1/3rd in just space heating for both residential and commercial.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_pie

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 08:54

JwalaMukhi wrote:Saar, it is electicity only purely. If for some reason, the first link is not working here is the pdf that would help.
http://205.254.135.7/totalenergy/data/a ... sec8_3.pdf

both links are working...wiki link is total energy which includes everything including ..

here is the pdf..

http://205.254.135.7/totalenergy/data/m ... sec2_3.pdf

even here the total household energy consumption is onlee 20%..

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 08:56

JwalaMukhi wrote:Further more, here is how the residential would break up. Lot of it will be used in space heating even in commercial setup. Almost 1/3rd in just space heating for both residential and commercial.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_pie

most of the heating in amreeka is by gas and not by electricity..our discussion is only of electricity.. gas for India is onlee cooking..

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 09:04

20% of the american energy requirements go to households ... Most energy is for commercial, industrial and transport purpose..so again household is minority..

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Apr 2012 09:04

gakakkad wrote:both links are working...wiki link is total energy which includes everything including ..

Well, wiki link graph is very explicit in just following electricity only, if one is interested, if one can follow the color code. However it is for 2009.

most of the heating in amreeka is by gas and not by electricity

Will grant you that. Still electricity is used very substantially to regulate space temperature (heating/cooling) and is not trivial.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Apr 2012 09:06

gakakkad wrote:20% of the american energy requirements go to households ... Most energy is for commercial, industrial and transport purpose..so again household is minority..

Yep, but let's stick only to electrical energy.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Apr 2012 09:09

Well, wiki link graph is very explicit in just following electricity only, if one is interested, if one can follow the color code. However it is for 2009.

even if it is 30% , most of the electricity goes towards commercial and industrial segment...so theos argument about using household figures only falls apart since , you need most electricity for commercial and industrial segment..

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 13 Apr 2012 09:22

^correct. If one were to match the pace of industrialization and commericialization on par with either china or US., nearly 2/3rd (not 85%) would have to be for that. Although the caveat is, there is far less requirement for regulating space temperature (heating/cooling).