The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

[sudarshan]

Cross posting from Ram Janmabhoomi thread.

Thanks. Apologies in advance for the slight thread derailment - your background interests me in the context of this forum and your post above. You're from the post 1992 generation, correct ? You're a demographic whose voice here is small, but is very significant given that you're a member of the half of population that's under 35; most of us here are over that age.

Would you mind taking time in the politics thread to describe what you see on SM or IRL regarding the political views of your generation, and also how they view Modi in the context of what you said above ? How is that different from their views of (insert anyone else in his age group or older) ? Why do you think they hold this view ?

Thanks in advance. I think your perspective would be very enlightening to the forum in the appropriate thread.

Thanks for asking me this question. I will try to put into words the thoughts and observations I have had for a long time.

First of all I am 21. (Even the forum is older than I am) So I have not even graduated college yet. And I come from a middle class background.

So coming back to the question about how my generation feels, I have to narrate my own transformation. Pre 2014 I was a secular. I was young and I didn't knew much back then. Even though I had started reading newspaper much earlier than my peers, I had been thoroughly brainwashed through all those NCERT books written by commies starting from class 6 and used to listen to NDTV. Barkha and company were my favourite news channel. And Rahul Gandhi was the preferred choice for the post of Prime Ministership in 2014 for me and my politically aware friends . It was mainly because most of us came from a so called secular family who viewed NaMo and Hindutva in bad light. As some kind of bad person responsible for 2002. And being from a peaceful state where we didn't see the face of the peacefool community on a daily basis made us live in delusional world of secularism. And on top of that the so called 'intellectuals' stranglehold on our thought process and subsequent brainwashing that followed. So we believed whatever they said, becuz we thought they are 'intellectuals' so how can they be wrong? Even though we were very much angry about the corruption that took place in UPA-2, we thought maybe Rahul Gandhi will save us becuz those intellectuals said so. I still remember as a kid waking up and reading everyday on the newspaper how a new scam had taken place, Pakis had beheaded our soldiers, China had grabbed territory etc etc. But we still believed Rahul Gandhi is a good man.

But all of that changed on the day of 16 May 2014.

The moment NaMo won, something changed inside me and many of my friends. How could the intellectuals be so wrong about this thing? Yes, the run up to the General Elections had made sure Rahul Gandhi was forever tagged as a Pappu. But we still believed he was a good man. So why had the country rejected him so massively? And then we felt attracted towards Modi. I still remember watching his every speech from his victory in 2014 to oath taking ceremony to election speeches he had given prior to General elections and even after that in Maharashtra elections. Very intently I watched and I found that he had that certain charisma which had attracted me and many of my friends to the fold.

The rise of social media ensured that all the stranglehold the so called intellectuals had on knowledge and thought process was wiped out. And I came to know about Ram Janmabhoomi and the white washing of our history, the crimes of banditji and his family and how this congressi nepotism at top had ensured a class system in which Raja ka beta Raja baneja doctrine was followed to the fullest in every industry and every job.

It exposed the face of congressi appeasement and sickularism. The true colours of the media, writers producers, Bhaiwood, bureaucrats, politicians etc was also exposed. How BIF forces were conspiring to break India and how India was truly alone. The deshdrohis aka commies and Islamists being blood thirsty for Hindus. The media especially lost credibility in the eyes of our gen. Barkha, Sardesai etc etc were openly called out for their crimes.

All of these ensured that I and most of my generation went from sickularism to Kattar Hindutva. This all happened because of social media and forums like Bharat Rakshak. For which I am thankful of.

And from what I have observed from 2014, I felt Indians and it's upcoming generations are finally reclaim it's lost confidence. It is no longer a shame to wear the tag of an Indian Hindu but it is now a matter of pride. From the bleak situation in 2013 to a bright future of Ram temple in 2021, I can now feel that India is now ready to reclaim it's lost glory because it has retuned to it's roots. That is the view of my generation of unapologetic Hindus.

The day Ram Janmabhoomi court case was settled in Supreme Court, all of my friends celebrated that momentous occasion. Even yesterday most of them were watching the program on TV and were very active on social media. And when Ram mandir construction will finally get over, my gen and the coming gen will remember it forever.

From what I have seen, when Ramayana was telecasting all of my friends watched in rapt attention, and this Ram issue has even brought out the Hindutva in even the most sickular person of my gen. From what I believe, most of the build school, hospital, etc etc thoughts/suggestions coming from my gen were because many of them thought building Ram temple is an impossibility. But suddenly when that changed on the November judgement of supreme court and the events that took place yesterday, wiped out the sickularism in them. They are now proud to identify themselves as Hindus. No more Ganga Jamuna tamasha.

Coming to your questions. My Gen first got attracted to Modi was he won in 2014. Then as time passed, we found a new confidence in our country. And NaMo represented our confidence and aspirations about making India great again. He embraced his culture, his religion and was proud of it. The genuineness he displayed acted as a magnet for us who had become increasingly aware of the threats our country faced both externally and internally. So he was became our protector. And a Elder of our family.

In comparison, many of the older generation (my father included) viewed him as a dramebaaz, feku, etc etc. And revered the Congress leaders and hoped for a congress rivival. They are the generation who worshipped Indira Gandhi and the freedom fighter Banditji. Their parents (aka my grandparents) had influenced their thought process.

They are not that active on social media as much as our generation is. So their views formed from years of Congressi brainwashing can't be so easily removed. So it feels as if the young generation wants Modi while the older 50+ Gen wants congress back.

But the most profound impact Modi has are on kids. The children are now recognising Modi was the elderly grandpa and the paramount leader. I have seen instances when every word said by modi is taken very seriously. Like for example when modi introduced Swachch Bharat abhiyan, our principal in school remarked that from that day onwards the young pre adolocent children were taking the campaign very seriously and even scolding the elders if they tried to litter.

The political ramifications of this is that Namo has more sway over Indians especially young Indians more than any leader in our history. The future gen and even my gen will not remember who congress was or what their legacy was. But will definitely remember it was Modi who built Ram temple. And who changed our nation.

I think that answers all the questions you had posed, Suraj ji. I hope it's helps the Brf members in understanding what my gen think of modi.

[sudarshan]

Cross posting from Ram Janmabhoomi thread.

Wise much beyond your years. May you and your generation prosper and revive India to reach its old station.

[sudarshan]

AshishAcharya: My word, that was a tour de force of a post, young man! I cannot claim to speak for the forum, but I learned a lot from your post about how the 18-30 generation in India think .

From my early millennial perspective, we were shaped by events like Kargil and the nuclear tests of 1999. You were barely born then . It is very revealing to understand the political events that are shaping the minds of your generation.

It is very heartening to see your generation take such pride in your heritage and culture. We see your loud presence on SM but before you, I don’t think anyone has as yet articulated the worldview of the generation that just voted the first time .

I’ve often asserted from data that GE 2014 and 2019 are anomalies with turnouts absurdly high - multiple standard deviations above long term avg. Your description of the level of political engagement of your generation helps answer some of that .

Your lot are smarter, more engaged and confident than whatever could be mustered by my gen or our predecessors . The nation is in good hands.

[sudarshan]

Thanks for putting all that down. As you've probably figured out by now, the more somebody is claimed to be an intellectual or expert in h** field, the higher the standards that the person has to be held to, in terms of basic sanity checks. While there is no cause to be disrespectful, if the person is bluffing, there will be enough red flags that even a lay person can pick up on, if that lay person is not enthralled by the aura.

A hard-earned lesson for me, I too was in the thrall of very many "intellectuals" until I wised up.

Feeling reassured now, that once the younger generations come of voting age, many things will change (or are already changing).

[sudarshan]

Cross posting from Ram Janmabhoomi thread.
..... .

Ashish, your post made me realize a lot of things. Firstly, we are not there young Turks anymore. Was a aharp reminder of mortality.

Secondly, I come from a family that had been staunch Gandhians and INC faithful before Independence. The forcing out of Netaji, Direct Action Day in Calcutta and family history of Partition made us question everything the INC did. Even then missionary schools, erudite media, pseudo intellectuals and opinions of seniors at the workplace converted me into Modi bad after 2002. Yes my parents had been involved with three BJP in WB before that. And in mid 90's had flirted with being a closet supporter. But I had been deracinated. Only BRF and curiosity brought me back to reconsider. i know this personal background is long but am stressingit to show how even in an anti INC family children can be deracinated. Used to worry what will happen to India's future. Who will guard? Your words give me confidence. Even if 20% of tbe next generation fell this way, then we a are on the right track. It brought back memories of my debates with my uncles and father.

Even though you are younger than me, please accept my pranams.

[sudarshan]

Salaam ji, Suraj ji, Sudarshan ji and Mukesh ji

I can humbly thank all of you for the kind words you have said about me. This coming from the stalwarts of BRF means a lot to me. As the magnificent people here have been my inspiration ever since I stumbled upon this site by mistake in 2018. And it has played a significant role shaping my viewpoint. So even though my Generation might take the helm in future, it needs to blessings and guidance of the elders to successfully make India a golden eagle of the world.

Btw another point came to my mind. I have always wondered why can't we aspire to become the leader of the world like USA, the superpower? I asked this question to my father and he had a dismissive view of that. So one more difference even noted by Mukesh Ambani is that there is very big difference between the aspirations of the young people and the those of the older generation.

[sudarshan]

I can humbly thank all of you for the kind words you have said about me. This coming from the stalwarts of BRF means a lot to me. As the magnificent people here have been my inspiration ever since I stumbled upon this site by mistake in 2018. And it has played a significant role shaping my viewpoint. So even though my Generation might take the helm in future, it needs to blessings and guidance of the elders to successfully make India a golden eagle of the world.

Your post was very valuable in the contest of answering the psephological meaning of GE 2014 and 2019. You see, the long term turnout average in Indian general elections is about 57%. The highest ever was 63% weeks after Indira Gandhi was assassinated in 1984, when RaGa's daddy got elected with 425 seats. He didn't last a single term before resigning, though. What a waste.

Now one looks at 2014 and suddenly turnout is 67%. A full TEN percentage points above LTA. In 2019, it's >68% . But why ?? Nobody died and drove a traumatized population to the polls. Historically, no electorate anywhere in any major country ever had higher turnout to re-elect someone. People decide their work is done and don't bother showing up 2nd time.

Multiple generations of Indians didn't bother to get to even 60% participation rate in GEs, despite all their grievances. So who's driving the thrust to such absurdly high turnouts and decisive parliamentary majorities of 282 and 303 seats ? Can't be my generation or older ones - we've never shown any capability to do that, and secondly, the <35 demographic already outnumbers us in absolute terms though not yet in terms of eligible voter count.

So, starting with the assumption that the extra turnout and votes are coming from the young, WHY are the young so enamored with Modi ? Historically, newer generations have never resulted in statistically significant changes to turnout LTA. Except for blips, turnout has been largely ~57% for six decades, and then bam - since GE 2014, the country is voting in a completely different way. That's the question I put to you.

Your answer, regarding the extent to which even things like SBA and Mann Ki Baat are teaching kids about Modi as an elder statesman, is revealing. I don't think anyone here ever said 'millions of kids are going to become conscious about cleanliness and Modi's leadership here and become likely voters'.

While we may not have precise age-wise voting breakdown, IF it is indeed correct that the 18-30 generation are driving both the enormous increases in turnout, and the very decisive mandates to the current admin, then my own view is that this generation deserves great respect for its focused desire to generate stable national consensus needed to aspire to greatness. It is a kind of motivated broad based nationalism that reflects everything that most of us on this forum desire.

Btw another point came to my mind. I have always wondered why can't we aspire to become the leader of the world like USA, the superpower? I asked this question to my father and he had a dismissive view of that. So one more difference even noted by Mukesh Ambani is that there is very big difference between the aspirations of the young people and the those of the older generation.

Easy there, cowboy Leadership is a question of desire to be achieve the highest possible tier of accomplishment. From a sports perspective, it means not being satisfied with being school champion. Or district, state, zonal, interzonal or national champion, of even continental - only world level success will do as a complete statement. We see in sports like shooing where 16 year old Indian kids are world champions. That is scary to imagine for anyone 30+ . We are not used to expecting and striving for greatness, and seeing it on such a scale.

We expect sportspeople to fail and come saying it's because they have less exposure, and are not able to keep up with the best. Mediocrity was an acceptable norm. Now we have a generation where 16 years olds with 0 exposure go and clean up the gold medals at world level events. Or see the cricket team consistently win from hard positions where those who grew up in the 1990s are used to the trauma of repeatedly failing in those moments. We went from completely useless at finishing a game (when Tendulkar got out, people turned off TV) to Dhoni/Kohli being the best finishers in the history of the game.

I'm sure such things do great things to the psyche of an impressionable teenager like you were a few years ago. We 30+ folks cannot begin to grasp what it might be like. We're jealous of it too, but we don't know what such a demonstration of national level accomplishment does to young minds who then hunger for even more. We cannot stop thinking the way we've been hardwired to think - "ooh Dhoni's gonna get this done, but maybe we'll fall apart like we did 15 years ago ? (dhoti shiver)' . You're blessed with not growing up with such negativity in many ways.

So I'm not sure what the older generation can teach you here. The younger folks are already doing things were unimaginable when we were your age 15+ years ago. You want to make India a world power, go for it. Demand a political framework that implements timebound goals towards great power status. None of us are going to complain, and don't let us keep you from it by saying it can't be done

[sudarshan]

Thank you Suraj ji for this wonderful post and really touching post. It gave a insight and clarity on the actions and motivations of my generations. It helped me understand the vital role I as a individual and my generation as a whole my play in shaping India's destiny in the 21st century.

[sudarshan]

Cross posting from Ram Janmabhoomi thread.
said above ? How is that different from their views of (insert anyone else in his age group or older) ? Why do you think they hold this view ?

Thanks for asking me this question. I will try to put into words the thoughts and observations I have had for a long time.
............................

..............I think that answers all the questions you had posed, Suraj ji. I hope it's helps the Brf members in understanding what my gen think of modi.

Ashish Ji, let me add my voice to the chorus of appreciation for your words that are so revealing. I am much older than you and it is extremely refreshing to see a different perspective. I am mostly a lurker here although a member since the late 90s. BRF is somewhat of an echo chamber and most of us here are old fogies who largely agree with each other on matters of national security. In the beginning it was a 'secular' forum but gradually became more focused on Dharma and IMHO a truly secular meeting place for like minded people.

Your story finds deep resonance within me. Even in the 60s and 70s, in fact perhaps more so, the Britshit remnants ruled the roost. I even had white Anglo teachers in my school, a leftover from the Colonial era. Everything Hindu and Indian was undesirable, we were all made to feel that the only 'educated' people were those who spoke English well and aped the Brits. My generation was deracinated very early on. It took me half my life for me to cast off this Colonial yoke and be proud of 'my people'. This happened on Dec 6, 1992. It was a seminal event in this long and painful story of Hindu India. At the time I was a fully apologetic Darkie living in UK, having drunk enough of the Koolaid and embarrassed of all the Ram Mandir 'nonsense'. The events of that afternoon shook me to my core and became my Red Pill Day.

From Dec 1992 we have indeed come full circle and August 5, 2020 will forever be remembered as the Day India really woke up.

Thank you for sharing your views and bringing to us the true facts about your generation. I had lost all hope but now see that the reality is quite different. Makes the work ahead that much harder since the opposition will pit everything they can against the rise of India and of the Hindu.

[sudarshan]

Hat-tip to AshishAcharya for his spirit and his clear talent that is evident from his writing: imbued with matter-of-clarity that doesn’t compromise on passion. I have always held that clear writing, clear thinking, and moral uprightness go together. Sort of how, Sri Ramachandra’s straight-and-true arrow is a metaphor for his character.

Honor your elders, know them for the good people they are, shaped like all are, by the circumstances of their lives. Give thanks for your own circumstances, which your elders surely had a part in shaping.

And having done that, work out life for yourself. You have all the necessary equipment already within you.

“Ab tumhare hawale yeh watan”, as the song says, fills me with a little less dread, thanks to your post.

[sudarshan]

Came across this. Do give a read, pretty interesting thread.

https://twitter.com/saket71/status/1290982132005789702

I was supremely secular on 6th of December 1992. I was in the hostel. When the news came, I took my roommate and sat in the room of a Muslim classmate. I thought he might be feeling so alienated. We didn’t say anything. We sat silently.

He goes on to tell his transformation.

[sudarshan]

Kudos AshishAcharya. So glad to see that your fundae are so clear while still in college.
During my times, college was for playing Counter Strike, bunking classes and generally chilling in life. Not that I regret that
I seriously starting reading stuff only after college and BRF helped tremendously in clarifying things.

Being from devabhoomi Uttarakhand, while I did not have much negativity when it comes to Hindu traditions, I did pretty much go along with the standard narrative and wasn't gung-ho about Hindutva.
After passing out of college, I finally started reading about politics and religion around 2004-2005.
I wasn't anti or pro Modi, but I had bought into the narrative that Modi was involved in Gujarat riots. This view was reinforced when I spoke to some people from Gujarat who openly supported Modi and asserted that he had a hand in the riots in targeting and killing muslims.

Then I seriously started reading BRF and was surprised to learn that far from fanning the riots, Modi had done everything possible to bring the riots under control.
During those days there was no Twitter, so BRF was literally a treasure trove of information related to countering the dominant anti Hindu/BJP narrative.
It's when it became clear to me that Modi was innocent of any wrongdoing during the riots that my journey towards being a politically aware Hindu started. When the dominant narrative could be so wrong about Modi, what other lies had it fed me?
I will forever be grateful to BRF and the gurus here for that.

[sudarshan]

Ashish Ji, let me add my voice to the chorus of appreciation for your words that are so revealing. I am much older than you and it is extremely refreshing to see a different perspective. I am mostly a lurker here although a member since the late 90s. BRF is somewhat of an echo chamber and most of us here are old fogies who largely agree with each other on matters of national security. In the beginning it was a 'secular' forum but gradually became more focused on Dharma and IMHO a truly secular meeting place for like minded people.

Your story finds deep resonance within me. Even in the 60s and 70s, in fact perhaps more so, the Britshit remnants ruled the roost. I even had white Anglo teachers in my school, a leftover from the Colonial era. Everything Hindu and Indian was undesirable, we were all made to feel that the only 'educated' people were those who spoke English well and aped the Brits. My generation was deracinated very early on. It took me half my life for me to cast off this Colonial yoke and be proud of 'my people'. This happened on Dec 6, 1992. It was a seminal event in this long and painful story of Hindu India. At the time I was a fully apologetic Darkie living in UK, having drunk enough of the Koolaid and embarrassed of all the Ram Mandir 'nonsense'. The events of that afternoon shook me to my core and became my Red Pill Day.

From Dec 1992 we have indeed come full circle and August 5, 2020 will forever be remembered as the Day India really woke up.

Thank you for sharing your views and bringing to us the true facts about your generation. I had lost all hope but now see that the reality is quite different. Makes the work ahead that much harder since the opposition will pit everything they can against the rise of India and of the Hindu.

Primus ji. Please no ji for me. I am much younger than you and almost all of the members here. Please feel free to call me by my name.

First of all, thank you for taking out your time to write such a wonderful post. Reading such posts on BRF has been very enlightening for me. When I first stumbled here in 2018, I was really fascinated by the depth of knowledge the members had especially on defense matters and international relations which was above all the noise one finds in social media sites like twitter. And a unique feature was the acronyms like TFTA, SDRE etc that made me chuckle. Afterwards, when I came across the dharmic aspects in some threads of BRF, it refined and broadened my nascent dharmic concepts. I found myself being more involved in Puja (helping my mom), watched Rath Yatra more enthusiastically, had a deep moment with Lord Jagannath (the kind when you surrender yourself to God) when I visited the temple in Jan and lastly read extensively on the Indic history. And I found myself feeling proud of our history. And in general BRF and the events after 2014 changed my life. I cannot even imagine the pre 2014 me doing all of this.

So BRF, irrespective of the slightly older age of members here, played a very important role just like it played a very important role in changing the thoughts of many of the members. For me, it will always be ahead of the curve.

I sometimes feel that my generation is privileged to live in such good times when things people once thought impossible are finally becoming reality. I cannot imagine what it must be like to live in 1950s to late 90s when commie/Islamist forces ran rampant. India has come a long way from those times. My father used to talk how of Punjab terrorism and North East militancy along with no jobs except in govt sector along with 90s economic crises had a tremendous impact on his generation. So comparing to what India has gone through, I feel very thankful that I was born in such good times.

As you had your red pill moment in 1992. I had mine on 16 May, 2014. I consider that year the most valuable year for India in 21st century. It changed my thinking and in general changed my life. And moreover I don't think August 5, 2020 was the day India woke up. It is merely a checkpoint to the main important date when Mandir will be finally be completed and Modi will be the first to do Puja there. That date will be the day when Ram will truly come home. It will herald a era of Ram Rajya, India has been longing for a long time

Lastly, I think the BIF gang don't even realise what they are up against. Their worst fears will come true eventually. But looking at what happened to those who tried to stop Rath Yatra aka Mulayam, Lalu etc I am pretty sure that BIF guys will be wiped out.

[sudarshan]

Kudos AshishAcharya. So glad to see that your fundae are so clear while still in college.
During my times, college was for playing Counter Strike, bunking classes and generally chilling in life. Not that I regret that
I seriously starting reading stuff only after college and BRF helped tremendously in clarifying things.

Aha! I did all of that too. Except it was PUBG in my case (it was before I knew it was chini maal) along with social media. I tried to replace it with BRF

Again thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with all of us. It shows me that despite all the age difference, we had similar experiences and how brf was a significant reason our views changed.

[sudarshan]

Hat-tip to AshishAcharya for his spirit and his clear talent that is evident from his writing: imbued with matter-of-clarity that doesn’t compromise on passion. I have always held that clear writing, clear thinking, and moral uprightness go together. Sort of how, Sri Ramachandra’s straight-and-true arrow is a metaphor for his character.

Honor your elders, know them for the good people they are, shaped like all are, by the circumstances of their lives. Give thanks for your own circumstances, which your elders surely had a part in shaping.

And having done that, work out life for yourself. You have all the necessary equipment already within you.

“Ab tumhare hawale yeh watan”, as the song says, fills me with a little less dread, thanks to your post.

Thank you KLN Murthy ji for those kind and encouraging words which I think I don't deserve. What I did was just pour my heart out on the feelings I had since 2014. And that too I wrote it when I didn't have any sleep that night. I had never thought it would receive such love from the members here and tbh I was a bit worried if I was making sense or had just post a incoherent piece.

So the amount of love and encouragement coming from BRF is really overwhelming for me.

And Murthy ji, I would try to follow yours and Suraj ji's advise for rest of my life. And lastly, I am happy that my post has restored the confidence in our gen and reassured you that we will change India's destiny for better.

[sudarshan]

We all have moments that shape our long term perspective like this. In 1992 I was too young and lacked interest in current affairs. I remember being woken up early morning in summer 1991 and being told RaGa Snr had been assassinated. I just shrugged 'so, just like his mother ?' and went back to sleep. Not much of hopey changey feelings in those days to inspire kids. However, May 11 1998 was the day I started building my own world view. The nuclear tests were all over. Why was it important ? Why hadn't anyone done it before ? Why were we pussyfooting around about it so much ? Why did one party teetering on the brink of loss of power still risk its hold on power to do that ?

Those who already had their views set long ago, don't quite appreciate how moments like May 2014 impacted the minds of children like AshishAcharya, and cultivated a generation of youth for whom the present is the accepted and desired norm for the country. It's quite fascinating, and in a way explains the sheer loudness of the left intelligentsia - they're trying to desperately change a generation of young minds they fear are otherwise 'set' for life.

I didn't even consider that something like Swacch Bharat Abhiyan would cause millions of kids to grow up as advocates of public order and cleanliness the way it has. I thought most kids would see it as a punishment class to put up with, but clearly the PM understands how to be an agent of socio-cultural change. I remember back in 2014 when speaking about women's welfare and safety, he said very insightfully "a discussion about your daughter's safety also involves asking your son where he has been all evening". I think this kind of thoughtful insight is why he has such an enormous following on Mann Ki Baat - he's not offering bhashans from an elevated stage, but is being one of the people, giving insight, ideas and feedback on their concerns towards him.

[sudarshan]

Suraj ji, the left intelligentsia is trying it's level best to influence the young gen. Netflix, Amazon Prime and co are now their latest attempts to influence the young gen. But the biggest asset they have is their hold on Universities.

For example, a friend was a hardcore Modi supporter in school. But when he went to IIM Indore on a integrated course, he changed. And now he is one of those Anti CAA -liberal out to defeat non-existent fascism. So by talking to him I could realise the profs and the students there had a huge impact on him. Same is the case with some of my friends in law. We absolutely need to purge the commie presence in universities to free the young minds from the shackles put by commie-islamist-congi nexus. Along with that we must change the NCERT books that are still brainwashing children.

[sudarshan]

...

Thank you KLN Murthy ji for those kind and encouraging words which I think I don't deserve.
...

You do know, I am sure, that the essence of dharma is that no one is the arbiter of what they "deserve." Only thing that counts in dharma is duty.

Just teasing you, a little.

[Primus]

We all have moments that shape our long term perspective like this. In 1992 I was too young and lacked interest in current affairs. I remember being woken up early morning in summer 1991 and being told RaGa Snr had been assassinated. I just shrugged 'so, just like his mother ?' and went back to sleep. Not much of hopey changey feelings in those days to inspire kids. However, May 11 1998 was the day I started building my own world view. The nuclear tests were all over. Why was it important ? Why hadn't anyone done it before ? Why were we pussyfooting around about it so much ? Why did one party teetering on the brink of loss of power still risk its hold on power to do that ?

After my Red Pill Day in 1992, I set on a course to educate myself. Bought and read all the books published by Voice of India and others. By 1994 I had firmly become the opposite of what I was during the first half of my life.

I well remember that day in 1998. I was chairing a meeting in the South Bronx hospital where I worked and an American woman started what she thought was a 'warm up' to the academic discussion by commenting on the nuclear tests Indian had done. Her statement was typical of the condescension displayed by most Western agencies "India should first learn to feed its starving masses before spending money on nuclear weapons" she said.

It was too much for me and I promptly responded - "look out the window, this is America, the richest nation in the world with thousands of nuclear weapons. And yet Americans are starving right here, right now. Outside that window women are selling themselves for crack and men are diving into garbage bins for scraps of food. I've never seen that even in the poorest parts of India. Why don't you tell the government to sell off the nuclear weapons and feed these people".

She was aghast that somebody could speak up to her and was speechless after that. There was an Indian dietitian there who until now was cowering, but after my outburst, she sat up straight and looked at me, a grateful smile on her face.

I realized then that if you want people to respect you, you need to stand up for yourself. From that day on, I've never let it go, no matter who it is.

In this as in everything else in life - jo dar gaya, samjho mar gaya.

[SRajesh]

I realized then that if you want people to respect you, you need to stand up for yourself. From that day on, I've never let it go, no matter who it is.

In this as in everything else in life - jo dar gaya, samjho mar gaya.

Primusji
From my own experience I can add another small thing one should try : Stick to you first name and surname(if you have and not deracinated to use one) and see how they quickly fall into place.
I had a nurse outpatient joking asking me why can't I be a Smith or Jones and I asked what if I COULD make easier for myself if hers was a begum or a bibi

[sudarshan]

Yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah
Sa yat pramanam kurute lokas tad anuvartate

Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.

BG 3.21

I've been maintaining that this is a good description of the Modi phenomenon. AshishAcharya's post on how kids of the new generation in India now look upon Modi as a role model, and how they even admonish their elders for littering (SBA), confirms the above for me. I think the younger generation in India will do fine, they have a first-class role model, which my generation never had (Gandhi? Nehru? Yeah, sure, we had that).

Having said that - if one wants to understand the Modi phenomenon, I think one must study the Gandhi phenomenon. The fact is that Gandhi did become a role model for hundreds of millions of Indians, and is probably the sole reason why sickularism got a head start in India (fed and nourished by vote-bank politics, but the birth was with Gandhi).

How did the half-naked fakir do it? This is not an insult, Gandhi himself was okay with this description of himself, originally attributed to Churchill.

I believe Gandhi was seen to be genuine. His fasts unto death were the real deal, sans the liberal snack breaks of those politicians who later tried to emulate them. He did lead from the front, whether it was the salt satyagraha, or the QIM. He did sport a simple, ostensibly Bharatiya attire (or as "Bharatiya" as most people were reduced to in those times), eat simply, spend time in an ashram, spinning a charkha, singing bhajans. The Indian masses saw him as their spiritual leader, and it wasn't just a disguise, it was his entire lifestyle. His daily diet was tailor-made to project that image, and it was his *only* diet, he genuinely survived on that. Different matter, as Smt. Sarojini Naidu commented, that "it's costing us a fortune to keep Gandhi in poverty." What matters, is how the aam Indian perceived Gandhi, and I daresay, it's not much different from how the aam Indian perceives Modi today, as a role model and leader. And I daresay, if Gandhi hadn't lived that lifestyle, at least to the extent that he did, the Indian public would have tired of his antics, or at least of its after-effects (lasting 70 years) long ago. There is after all, a sound reason, why a certain family deliberately adopted the surname of Gandhi.

The Modi phenomenon might be following the same mechanism as the Gandhi phenomenon, which is fascinating, because the Modi phenomenon is working in reverse, to undo the effects of sickularism! People do genuinely identify Modi as a man of humble origins, steeped in the Indian tradition, who leads from the front, and lives the life that he wants others to live.

TLDR: want to understand the Modi phenomenon? There could be many valuable clues in the Gandhi phenomenon. Gandhi was the promise of a new India to that generation, Modi is its fulfillment to the new generation.

[SRajesh]

^^Exactly sir
The ‘Mahatma complex’ got to him and dictated his every action
Modiji knows what it takes to recreate that but I pretty sure that he won’t let it dictate his life

[sudarshan]

^^Exactly sir
The ‘Mahatma complex’ got to him and dictated his every action
Modiji knows what it takes to recreate that but I pretty sure that he won’t let it dictate his life

Who exactly "nominated" Gandhi for the "post" of Mahatma, anybody know? Was it spontaneous, from the people, or was it more deliberate?

[Vayutuvan]

Or see the cricket team consistently win from hard positions where those who grew up in the 1990s are used to the trauma of repeatedly failing in those moments. We went from completely useless at finishing a game (when Tendulkar got out, people turned off TV) to Dhoni/Kohli being the best finishers in the history of the game.]

Believe you me that you haven't seen what it was like growing up watching 5 day test cricket during 70s. It was a frequent thing for us to lose and lose big. We were beaten black and blue by West Indies, Ozzies, and Brits. Pataudi was one of the best captains who never won any test series. Suni Gavaskar and Vishwanath, while great, were no where near British and West Indian batsmen. Our fielding was very lax. Eknath Solkar used to be the standout among all. Our fastest pace bolwer Abid Ali was not all that fast. We had no pace bowlers of note though our spinners were magicians.

[Vayutuvan]

TLDR: want to understand the Modi phenomenon? There could be many valuable clues in the Gandhi phenomenon. Gandhi was the promise of a new India to that generation, Modi is its fulfillment to the new generation.

This is absolutely correct. My dad, when he was 10-11 year old growing up in Wardha, used to bike to Gandhi's Wardha ashram every Saturday evening where Gandhi would give a small lecture followed by prayer. Those evenings had a life long impact on him. Was he "secular"? Probably he was. But he never deviated from truth ever in his whole life. Never afraid of any pressures that he faced while working in a coal mining town.

[AshishA]

Probably influenced by social media, I have seen most of my friends and acquaintances take a very dismissive view of Gandhi. His not-so-good side is often forwarded in social media which helped in breaking the hold Gandhi had on Indians. Now he is more of a meme material than some kind of legendary leader. Maybe that's what Rahul's Gandhi surname isn't working?

Though my parents and grandparents revere Gandhi and preach the ahimsa ideals.

It's much worse for Nehru though. He is blamed for every problem India is facing now from what I have seen. And tbh that's true. Nehru is indeed responsible for a lot of problems India that's plaguing us.

Before Modi came, both of these figures were respected in my gen. But now? I see hatred for the so called founding fathers. Bose is now idolized in place of these guys.

[manish singh]

Bose is now idolized in place of these guys.

I believe you mean Subhash Chandra Bose.
It took me a very long time to even be aware of another Bose whose stellar contribution to our independence is not well known even among BJP supporters: Rash Behari Bose.

[AshishA]

Yes I was talking about Subhash Chandra Bose. And tbh I knew very little about Rash Behari Bose. I knew he was a freedom fighter and he had a Japan connection but it was limited to only that. It's very saddening to see that many of the freedom fighters were forgotten by us in our worship of Nehru and Gandhi. Some like Savarkar were vilified and their reputation destroyed.

[Mollick.R]

Bose is now idolized in place of these guys.

I believe you mean Subhash Chandra Bose.
It took me a very long time to even be aware of another Bose whose stellar contribution to our independence is not well known even among BJP supporters: Rash Behari Bose.

Manish babu count another Bose in the list

Jagdish Chandra Bose...
He too was a genius and contributed immensely in scientific field as well as associated Image building of so called nation of SDREs.

Marconi copied Idea of Wireless Communication and JC Bose lost chance to win Noble Prize.

JC Bose's earlier demonstration in front of elites (Including some Brithsh mayor or something like that I'm unable to recall exactly) of working model of a wireless system through which he passed a signal some 20 feet away penetrating a brick wall and ringing a bell was not not recorded/ counted & Marconi got the glory of Noble Prize.

[AshishA]

Bose is now idolized in place of these guys.

I believe you mean Subhash Chandra Bose.
It took me a very long time to even be aware of another Bose whose stellar contribution to our independence is not well known even among BJP supporters: Rash Behari Bose.

Now that I have read some articles about him, I came across a very interesting fact. His only daughter had refused to meet with the a Bangladeshi Journalist investigating RBB because she was miffed with the fact that he was not given his due recognition in his land of birth.

[SRajesh]

^^Exactly sir
The ‘Mahatma complex’ got to him and dictated his every action
Modiji knows what it takes to recreate that but I pretty sure that he won’t let it dictate his life

Who exactly "nominated" Gandhi for the "post" of Mahatma, anybody know? Was it spontaneous, from the people, or was it more deliberate?

Sudharshanji:
The word Mahatma, while often mistaken for Gandhi's given name in the West, is taken from the Sanskrit words maha (meaning Great) and atma (meaning Soul). Rabindranath Tagore is said to have accorded the title to Gandhi.[386]
Tagore, Rabindranath (15 December 1998). Dutta, Krishna (ed.). Rabindranath Tagore: an anthology. Robinson, Andrew. Macmillan. p. 2. ISBN 978-0-312-20079-4.
Basu Majumdar, A. K. (1993), Rabindranath Tagore: The Poet of India, Indus Publishing, ISBN 81-85182-92-2, p. 83: "When Gandhi returned to India, Rabindranath's eldest brother Dwijendranath, was perhaps the first to address him as Mahatma. Rabindranath followed suit and then the whole of India called him Mahatma Gandhi."

[manish singh]

@AshishAcharya,

Do read this. Without Rashbehari Bose there would be no INA >> no naval mutiny >> no independence.

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/rashbeha ... /8230.html

PS: And to think that he was at it since World War 1 !

[Primus]

Primusji
From my own experience I can add another small thing one should try : Stick to you first name and surname(if you have and not deracinated to use one) and see how they quickly fall into place.
I had a nurse outpatient joking asking me why can't I be a Smith or Jones and I asked what if I COULD make easier for myself if hers was a begum or a bibi

Please, no Ji.

Yes, been there. I still have my original name and use it, correcting people if they mispronounce it, but politely.

A Jewish radiologist once asked me why I couldn't have a simple name like my principal in the practice - who was known simply by his initial - I said, it won't work for me but I've thought of calling myself Katz or Cohen - but that is soooo common and what is the fun in that anyway? He shut up after that.

I do not blame Indians in public life and who deal with a lot of Americans on a daily basis and therefore find it easier to change their names to one or two syllables. However, Indian names are increasing in the Western world and I'm more often than not pleasantly surprised when an American (or European) hears my name and immediately pronounces it correctly.

[Primus]

Yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah
Sa yat pramanam kurute lokas tad anuvartate

Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.

BG 3.21

Having said that - if one wants to understand the Modi phenomenon, I think one must study the Gandhi phenomenon. The fact is that Gandhi did become a role model for hundreds of millions of Indians, and is probably the sole reason why sickularism got a head start in India (fed and nourished by vote-bank politics, but the birth was with Gandhi).

How did the half-naked fakir do it? This is not an insult, Gandhi himself was okay with this description of himself, originally attributed to Churchill.

I believe Gandhi was seen to be genuine. His fasts unto death were the real deal, sans the liberal snack breaks of those politicians who later tried to emulate them. He did lead from the front, whether it was the salt satyagraha, or the QIM. He did sport a simple, ostensibly Bharatiya attire (or as "Bharatiya" as most people were reduced to in those times), eat simply, spend time in an ashram, spinning a charkha, singing bhajans. The Indian masses saw him as their spiritual leader, and it wasn't just a disguise, it was his entire lifestyle. ..................

TLDR: want to understand the Modi phenomenon? There could be many valuable clues in the Gandhi phenomenon. Gandhi was the promise of a new India to that generation, Modi is its fulfillment to the new generation.

Gandhi was a very clever man. I am sure he had figured out the best way to win the hearts and minds of people was to become like them. This is a classic tactic used throughout history. The best example of this that comes to mind is that of Roberto de Nobili who came to India and settled down in then Madura (Madurai) in the early 1600s. He dedicated himself to behave like Brahmins (complete with hair, clothes, janeyu, vegetarian diet etc) and mixed vedas with Christian scripture. He was so successful that he converted thousands of Hindus. He was following Paul the original evengelist's teachings: "To the Jew I became a Jew to gain the Jews, to those under the law I became under the law, to those without the law, I became without the law, to the weak I became the weak, I became all things to all men to save them all".

The only thing I've never understood is why Gandhi did all that he did, because in the end it did not help the Hindus at all. Whether it helped India too is difficult to assess. From everything I've read, he was NOT instrumental in getting rid of the Britshits, so what exactly did he achieve for the nation as a whole? I realize this is OT and definitely controversial. I've read the arguments in his favor but cannot bring myself to accept all that, there is way too much damage he did, albeit I would agree it was perhaps not his intention. In this sense he was the classic 'misbegotten missionary'.

Modi connects with the people without any pretense and the common man sees him without the filters we 'educated' folks see him through. They do not understand or care about the myriad issues we all measurebate here ad nauseam. For them, he is like them, a son of the soil, born in the lower caste, poor as they are, who has given them respect and made their lives meaningful after decades of neglect. That is enough for them.

[sudarshan]

RSatchi, thanks, I didn't know it was Rabindranath Tagore and his brother who gave Gandhi that title. Wonder what they saw in him, must have been something substantial, I have a healthy respect for the intellect of that Tagore family.

Gandhi was a very clever man...

The only thing I've never understood is why Gandhi did all that he did, because in the end it did not help the Hindus at all. Whether it helped India too is difficult to assess. From everything I've read, he was NOT instrumental in getting rid of the Britshits, so what exactly did he achieve for the nation as a whole? I realize this is OT and definitely controversial. I've read the arguments in his favor but cannot bring myself to accept all that, there is way too much damage he did, albeit I would agree it was perhaps not his intention. In this sense he was the classic 'misbegotten missionary'.
...

Y'know, I can't figure out what Gandhi was after, either.

Years ago, a gori casually informed me that Gandhi was the first leader (PM/ prez) of (modern) India. I was shocked, and hastened to inform her that was not the case. While I was pretty annoyed at her casual presumption that Gandhi would have automatically become the first leader of independent India, I guess it was an understandable error. Pretty much every liberator in every other part of the world has gone on to be the political leader as well. Ho Chi Minh, de Gaulle, Mandela, Bolivar. So what was different about Gandhi?

Seemed like he was genuinely disinterested in political power. He stepped out of the way and let a younger guy take that mantle. That the younger guy was the bandit chacha, is of course India's misfortune. Was it age? Not really, Advani in his 90's couldn't resist the temptation. Gandhi seems like a very paradoxical person.

[Vayutuvan]

The grand dad of all - George Washington. In fact, he was weighing between making the US a monarchy similar to Britain. He might run into some headwinds or so the story goes.

[Primus]

Y'know, I can't figure out what Gandhi was after, either.

Years ago, a gori casually informed me that Gandhi was the first leader (PM/ prez) of (modern) India. I was shocked, and hastened to inform her that was not the case. While I was pretty annoyed at her casual presumption that Gandhi would have automatically become the first leader of independent India, I guess it was an understandable error. Pretty much every liberator in every other part of the world has gone on to be the political leader as well. Ho Chi Minh, de Gaulle, Mandela, Bolivar. So what was different about Gandhi?

Seemed like he was genuinely disinterested in political power. He stepped out of the way and let a younger guy take that mantle. That the younger guy was the bandit chacha, is of course India's misfortune. Was it age? Not really, Advani in his 90's couldn't resist the temptation. Gandhi seems like a very paradoxical person.

Just last night, talking to my kids - who both grew up here - the topic of Gandhi and Nehru came up. They both said they thought IG was Gandhi's daughter or otherwise related to him. When I told them she was Nehru's daughter (and explained that still unclear mystery of Feroz's origins), they were shocked. They know about Bose and his INA but did not know that it was he who was responsible for throwing the Britshits out and not Gandhi. There has been so much disinformation over the years that it is not surprising people know so little.

Perhaps it is my fault, not having taught them Indian history. But it is a sign that most people in the world outside of India are clueless about Gandhi the 'Mahatma' and the Die-nasty that bears the same name.

[SRajesh]

But it is a sign that most people in the world outside of India are clueless about Gandhi the 'Mahatma' and the Die-nasty that bears the same name.

Primus
Me thinks that this was all deliberate and cleverly manipulated by the Father and Daughter to fool the gullibles.
Marriage to Feroze was to this most likely
Never Who quiet smartly used 'Mahatma'
If ever in UK(I DONT KNOW IF THEY STILL HAVE CHURCHILL'S SPEECH in the Imperial War Museum about India/Indians and why the Brits have to look after us ) you should listen to it.
It is exactly what the Congi's in conjunction with the Lootyens and the Baboo's did to us.
We just swapped one set of rulers with the other.
And the poor commoners were led to believe that indeed Indira was 'Mahatma's' daughter.
And none of his own progeny were there to either refute or challenge this assumption.!!

[Vayutuvan]

http://www.dam.brown.edu/people/mumford ... imple.html

This article was posted by David Mumford, a Fields Medalist in algebraic geometry, and Prof. Emeritus, Brown University and Harvard.

Why his views are important is because the following two reasons:

1. He has a very healthy respect for Indian Mathematics.
2. On the other hand, he was one of the signatories to a letter sent to IITM when IITM failed (?) or some such thing with a few SC/ST students who were not able to come up to speed.

Here is a quote tfrom the blog article. Ensuing dicussion on Disqus is also very interesting. Nither Mumford nor the responders (who tried to oppose him on certain points related India) are not even wrong. They simply don't have any deep understanding of India or Indian Nationalism nor an idea of "Hindutva". Prof. Mumford quotes several Wikipedia articles in his blog.

What has two sides and is oversimplified is not slavery vs. human rights. Human rights is seen by a large percentage of the world's population as morally right, while slavery and social death to people living alongside us is seen as morally wrong. The biggest problem is not even that it is given merely lip service by many. The worst problem is that it is still flatly rejected in practice by so many countries. India, for example, consigns nearly all its Dalits, the untouchables, to virtual slavery. Most Dalits inherit lifelong jobs such as manually cleaning latrines with no personal protective equipment (PPE) which often causes them to die from this job. The Indian rallying cry "Hindutva" has justified massacres of Muslims.

This is egregious to say the least. He is British-American.

Mumford was born in Worth, West Sussex in England, of an English father and American mother. His father William started an experimental school in Tanzania and worked for the then newly created United Nations.

[Suraj]

This is an example of irony. A man who rails at 'upper caste oppression of Dalits' and 'evil Hindutva', but behaves exactly like the figurative 'evil upper caste Hindooo himself' - wants others to treat him as a subject matter authority even though he's a complete nobody whom no one is obligated to take seriously, but imagines his skin color and Field's Medal in a totally unrelated area gives him the authority to speak about whatever he things he can throw his weight around about. He's quite literally behaving like some 'wicked upper caste Dalit oppressor' himself. He has absolutely no authority except what he thinks his race and accomplishment in entirely unrelated matters gives him the authority to debate.

This is a very common trait of white intellectuals. More than anything else, they covet control over the narrative. THEY establish the narrative. They decide who has or doesn't have credibility. Others are to react and respond, whereupon they decide whether those responses are sufficient. This extends even to the 'woke liberal' domain - the white folks control what goes and what doesn't - the non whites are simply weaponized to push the 'right' narrative and shame the rest into silence.

I haven't read the Disqus comments. But I've taken on similar behavior in the following manner:
White 'intellectual': <makes some daft assertion, not a subject matter expert, mostly Wikipedia educated>
Me: Your arguments have no standing.
WI: And yet you have no credible rebuttal ?
Me: I don't even recognize your credibility or authority to speak on this topic. You don't deserve to be taken seriously. You know nothing more on this topic than what you've hastily googled. I can manipulate my responses to you that'll make you go looking in Wikipedia again and find bogus articles I wrote just to prove you wrong. Explain why you have the authority to speak on this ? I'm more than willing to play this game in kind and manipulate you, and then judge you for it.

It's not clear to me why anyone should take Prof.Mumford seriously when he's talking about stuff where he as the same level of authority as Kim Kardashian or Jerry Lewis.

If there's one thing that really embarrasses this demographic with their implicit assumption that they set the RoEs of any intellectual engagement, it's the open discrediting of their standing to gas about things they're a nobody in. And I have no qualms about immediately cutting them short and leaving them no option but to assert 'respect my authority', which is to be coolly refused, and turned around again to mock them more.

Is Prof Mumford going to treat Prof Manjul Bhargava - another Fields Medalist - as an exponent of British class and race dynamics the moment the latter starts a blog about it, and treat him with due deference ? Nope. Prof.Bhargava will get the 'who the cluck are you to talk about this ? Maybe you should fix your own problems first' treatment. Prof Mumford does not deserve any respect or regard here.

This goes further as a larger picture. Scholarship and narratives about India must be driven and controlled by Indian nationalist sources, only. We decide who's right, who has the right to be considered any sort of significant scholar in the matter. For about two centuries now, western scholars have been teaching India its own history, regardless of the fact that most of them, including Mumford here, are quacks with no authority. We have famed western Indologists who claim to be the ultimate source of Indology while being unable to read basic Sanskrit - something a 6th std schoolkid can easily outdo them at. Part of taking back control is about having no qualms about mocking anyone with delusions of their own standing, regardless of how high a pedestal they stand upon. The Chinese in comparison as absolutely assiduous about controlling the narrative of their own history.