India-EU News & Analysis

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gunjur
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby gunjur » 19 Feb 2012 15:49

Apologies if already posted.
Europeans migrate south as continent drifts deeper into crisis

Ohhoho and what is this? Angola pours money into debt-ridden Portugal Blacks trying to uplift white man. Surely this should hurt.:twisted: Hope the white man who himself is a burden doesn't bring down the globe.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2012 06:52

Barely weeks after their famous spat in public over the Euro,and being hailed as a great "Thatcherite" hero at home,"Rosbif" David Cameron and ancien enemy "Froggie" Sarko have embraced each other yet again in a vaudeville act that makes one wonder whether the entire EU is nothing more than a circus performance,with Frau Merkel as the "ring-mistress"! The two trapeze artistes,or should we instead say buffoons,"Sarko and Clown",sorry...Cameron,have restored man's faith in hilarity with their prized antics.One moment at each other's throats,the next moment with "gay" abandon,in a steamy clinch that makes one wonder whether there are further twists in the tail....sorry tale!


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 79781.html

Cameron hails new era of Franco-British military and nuclear co-operation

xcpt:
At a meeting in Paris yesterday, David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy agreed that Britain and France would strengthen their military and nuclear co-operation, create a joint command and control centre for armed operations, and speed the development of a new generation of battlefield drones.

The new Anglo-French civil nuclear agreements, potentially worth £10bn in the longer term, will create 1,500 jobs and bring in £500m in new commercial nuclear deals.

Rolls-Royce will benefit from a first-phase £400m share in the building of new nuclear plants. The firm will contribute power plants for the next generation of UK nuclear generators which were announced last year. It will also deliver components – initially worth £100m – for the reactors that will be assembled in the UK. France's nuclear specialist, Areva, will supply the cores.

The two governments announced they would also be working with the International Atomic Energy Agency to strengthen the international community's ability to deal with nuclear emergencies, such as the Fukushima disaster 11 months ago.

Last year the UK government confirmed eight sites where nuclear plants are likely to be built. Preparatory work, with a budget of £100m, has already started at Hinkley Point in Somerset – despite protests from environmental groups, which say Westminster has sidelined planning regulations.

Mr Cameron and Mr Sarkozy hinted that the new co-operation on nuclear power may be extended to both countries' defence policies.

Their announcement of a joint military command and control centre will cement the command roles Britain and France assumed over Libya last year, with United Nations approval. Mr Cameron described the combined role as a "real breakthrough" saying it would save money and improve the military capabilities of both countries.

BAE and Dassault, the French aircraft manufacturer, were given the go-ahead in Paris to collaborate in the development of new"fighter" drones.

The project, with a 2020 delivery date, comes after British and French military criticism that both countries relied too heavily on US Reaper MQ-9 drones. The new project aims to take the battle-field capabilities of drones, linked to both surveillance and attack, to a new level.

The Cameron-Sarkozy pact is likely to annoy both Eurosceptics in the UK, and the US defence establishment, which believed the previous Franco-British joint declaration on European defence, made in St Malo in 1998, challenged Nato's authority and balance.

The St Malo deal called on the European Union to play its full role on the international stage by creating both a common EU defence policy and "credible" EU defence force that would be able to respond to international crises.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 20 Feb 2012 06:56

Image

From the Hindustan Times

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2012 17:46

Considerable differences with India over killing of Indian fishermen: Italy


Italy says the men have immunity from Indian law as the tanker, the Enrica Lexie, was flying with an Italian flag in international waters as it sailed from Singapore to Egypt when the shooting occurred on Wednesday.

The two soldiers, who were deployed on the ship under a new law passed in Italy last year to protect against the growing threat from pirates in the Indian Ocean, were produced before a magistrate in Kerala on Monday.

They were escorted off the vessel and arrested on Sunday.

Italian officials have said the Indian fishing boat behaved aggressively and was repeatedly warned by officers on board the ship before shots were fired.

But India has protested against the deaths of the unarmed men and said that the suspects must face justice in local courts.


The Italians are behaving arrogantly here, feel almost tempted that we must let the ship and crew sail say 20 miles and torpedo it and let the ship and crew sink to the bottom. No remorse about the killing of 2 poor Indians for no fault of theirs by Trigger happy Navy personal. I am sure unarmed fishing boat would have stayed away if warning shots were fired.

P.S- Those Norwegians will not protest this killing.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby anishns » 20 Feb 2012 20:38

Image

uddu
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby uddu » 21 Feb 2012 20:04

Italian netizens call for all-out ban on Indian products
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... oducts-228
If this is true, then a counter need to be launched and a boycott of all Italian products be called for.
Have anyone noticed such debates or discussion in Italian forums?

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Jaspreet » 21 Feb 2012 20:10

If this is true, then a counter need to be launched and a boycott of all Italian products be called for.


Does that mean Sonia Gandhi will have to leave India? :)

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby pgbhat » 21 Feb 2012 20:25

Jaspreet wrote:
If this is true, then a counter need to be launched and a boycott of all Italian products be called for.


Does that mean Sonia Gandhi will have to leave India? :)

:lol:

Anyhow... Italian propaganda in full swing..

From chindu
Italy sends top diplomat over Marines’ arrest
However, Italian media, including respected titles like Corriere Della Sera have taken a mystifyingly jingoistic position, casting doubts on the Indian version of events. Initially the media suggested that the Enerica Lexie may not have been the vessel sought by Indian authorities as there were “at least four other vessels in the vicinity at the time.”

Readers' comments too have been frankly anti-Indian. “Our soldiers cannot be tried by a third world country,” :(( wrote one reader. Another used just one word to describe his or her frustration –"Indiani!!!" as if to say “what can be expected of Indians, after all.” :((

Italy's claim

Italy’s Defence Ministry continues to claim that the Indian fishing trawler was behaving “aggressively”. The Corriere della Sera has carried long extracts from the declarations made by one of the arrested Italians, Massimiliano Latorre, who claimed that the third time the fishing boat was fired at, it turned around and sped away and that there was no damage and no victims.

In an article based on details given by Defence Ministry sources journalist Fiorenza Sarzanini wrote that satellite images confirmed that the Italian tanker was in international waters at the time of the shooting. She also said that the Italian navy had ordered the two marines on board not to obey the order of the Indian authorities. “

In his report two days ago to the Carabinieri ROS special operations group and the Rome public prosecutor’s office, Massimiliano Latorre reconstructed the sequence of events off the Indian coast. The report names those who fired and denies that there could have been any casualties, far less victims. Latorre was in charge of the security unit on board the oil tanker Enrica Lexie to protect it from pirates and he is the author of the report, complete with photographs, which public prosecutor Francesco Scavo Lombardo will use to investigate the incident. Latorre and Salvatore Girone face charges of murdering two seamen on the St. Antony fishing vessel. The case file also contains statements from the five other service personnel on board and the conclusions of the unit’s leader,” Ms Sarzanani writes.

However, she says, the versions of the Indians and the Italians differ significantly, especially concerning the time of the incident, the precise position of the vessel at the time and the vessel that “attacked” the tanker. “Why did the Italians, who reported they were in international waters, nonetheless enter the Indian-controlled zone, enabling the arrest of the two marines? And why did they do so despite the objections of the Italian navy?” Ms. Sarzanini asks.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby anishns » 22 Feb 2012 04:54

Kerala murders: We must tell the Italians where to get off

Let’s not forget, Italy is Greece, struggling to keep its head above water. The country is on its knees, and it has no power to decide what we can do. Only we can pull ignominy from the jaws of this superior position – morally and realistically.

Italy would never have done us this favour if the boot was on the other foot.

We should, therefore, tell them to go take a walk. If at all we want to do a deal with them, we should ask them for a quid pro quo: what are you going to do for us in return for this big favour — apart from compensating the victims and punishing your navy’s killers?

This is the time to flex muscles, not lie over and play dead.


This article surely follows the BR line of thinking! :D

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby sanjaykumar » 22 Feb 2012 05:17

Italian! They should stay away from anything with a rudder, or did they not learn any moral courage from their cruise ship captain?

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Rony » 22 Feb 2012 11:42

The Iranians use Shia channels to put pressure on India. The Saudis use their wahabi/sunni channels. Now the Italians are using the catholic channels. :roll:

Italy works back channels, sea law to get marines off Indian hook
Besides engaging diplomatically, Italy is working the Catholic channels via the Vatican to allow the two marines to leave for Rome after paying some compensation to the families of the killed fishermen.


and the fifth column acts as per their masters wishes

Cardinal George Alancherry confuses 'allegiance to Rome'
Newly-ordained cardinal, belonging to the Syro-Malabar denomination of the Catholic church, George Alancherry, has asked the Kerala government not to take "precipitate action" in the case of killing of two Indian fishermen by Italian soldiers. He also warned the Opposition in the state, CPM-led Left Democratic Front, against scoring political points over the issue.

An agency report from Rome said the Cardinal, who is currently in Rome, has spoken to ministers of the Oommen Chandy government on the issue. "I contacted the Catholic ministers of Kerala urging the government not to act precipitately," George Alencherry, who has recently been elected a cardinal, told Catholic news agency 'Fides' in Rome

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby nvishal » 22 Feb 2012 12:54

You don't see the beauty of all this...

The italians will demonize themselves by lobbying in favour of those gun nuts. India doesn't have to do anything. Just feed the italians to talk more and more. Bring the catholic megalomaniacs of kerala to join this parade... even better.

Just relax and watch them make those "interesting" arguments. Keep them talking.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Atri » 22 Feb 2012 13:48

Rony wrote:Cardinal George Alancherry confuses 'allegiance to Rome'
Newly-ordained cardinal, belonging to the Syro-Malabar denomination of the Catholic church, George Alancherry, has asked the Kerala government not to take "precipitate action" in the case of killing of two Indian fishermen by Italian soldiers. He also warned the Opposition in the state, CPM-led Left Democratic Front, against scoring political points over the issue.

An agency report from Rome said the Cardinal, who is currently in Rome, has spoken to ministers of the Oommen Chandy government on the issue. "I contacted the Catholic ministers of Kerala urging the government not to act precipitately," George Alencherry, who has recently been elected a cardinal, told Catholic news agency 'Fides' in Rome


Small data point this is. But it is heart breaking at times to read such news. reinforces my faith in Savarkar's definition of Hindu (Indian).

आसिंधु सिन्धु पर्यन्ता यस्य भारत भूमिका l पितृभू पुण्यभू च एव स वै हिन्दुरिती स्मृतः ll

One who refers to entire Indian subcontinent as Bhaarat and considers this Bhaarat as land of his forefathers(Pitrubhumi) and most revered land (Punyabhoomi), he is a Hindu/Indian.

How come a cardinal take such position. Will the pontiff of greek church take such position? Leave aside greeks they are orthodox. Would head of catholic church in spain take such directives from an italian minister simply because Pope sits in Rome (Vatican, to be precise).

Is this at all a matter of religion? If greek and spanish pontiffs would keep themselves aloof of this, why is it that this cardinal of ours is getting entangled in this issue? Does Roman catholic church see this as Faithfools Vs. Kaafir affair? The christian version of Darul Islam (Christendom) Vs. heathen. I do know even know the religion of the fishermen who were killed by the Italians.

Because all indic religions consider India as their most revered land, this is not the problem with Indic religious leaders and followers with respect to India. Due to Pakistan, allegiance of many Indian Muslims has always been under scanner. There was no spat of India with Christian lands, hence no such trust deficit existed between Hindus and Christians until 1980s in recent post independence history. But One spat with Italy and the cardinal comes out of closet, hain ji?

Who the f*** is he to warn Kerala Government and opposition about what to do and what not? his job is to be pontiff of a Moksha Marga.. Why the f*** is he getting involved (in capacity of his office) in the matters of Dharma and Artha of Indian nation of which he is citizen?

P.S. This is not against Christians. This post is against church and behavior of its pontiffs in India. But this should also be a reminder to those fanatics to look inside and an check their allegiances.

Shameful and despicable. I denounce this attitude, this person and this act in harshest possible words.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby sampat » 22 Feb 2012 14:17

Black Box' Data Could Vindicate or Condemn Italian Security in Maritime Shooting

“Black box” data could provide evidence of the escalation of force that led to an incident in the Indian Ocean that left two fishermen dead, but it may be too late to recover it. 

There’s still a lot of uncertainty about what exactly happened aboard the Enrica Lexie [1] last week. Mistaking fishermen for approaching pirates, Italian marines, aboard the oil tanker as security, shot and killed two of them.

“The particulars of the Enrica Lexie incident are unknown, but there will seldom be an instance where a security team jumps directly to lethal force. A scaled escalation of force always starts with the lowest level of force, with additional force added until the threat is eliminated,” wrote piracy expert captain Richard Madden in a blog about the incident [2].

Rules of engagement should begin at a lower level of force--a security team, for example, may be enough to dissuade some pirates. Higher levels could include aiming bright lights at approaching vessels, using water cannons, and activating Long Range Acoustical Devices.

Crewmembers aboard Enrica say they saw a boat of five armed men approaching the ship. The crew says they sent the boat a warning followed by warning shots fired into the water. That was enough for the smaller craft to change its course, according to Umberto Vitelli, the ship’s captain. Vitelli said there was no visible damage to the smaller boat and no casualties.

The men in the boat tell a different story [3]. J. Freddy was part of an 11-man team that had set out for a three-week fishing expedition. Freddy says he woke up from a nap to a “hail of bullets” as the man steering was shot. He took control of the boat and steered it away. A second crew member was shot as they fled.

The fishermen alerted authorities that they had been fired on by a ship. Only four ships were located in a 60-mile radius of where the shooting occurred, according to the Coast Guard.

“As no merchant vessel had reported a pirate attack [4], the Coast Guard radioed these four ships, asking if they had been involved in a piracy incident. Only Enrica Lexie responded positively,” The Hindu reports.

 

This raised suspicion among coast guard officials because pirate attacks are usually reported immediately. It had been more than three hours since the shooting when the Coast Guard contacted the Enrica. The Coast Guard requested that the Enrica proceed to a port in Kochi where two members of its security crew were taken into custody.

Madden says the February 15th incident shows the importance of VDRs on ships. VDRs function like black boxes, recording audio, speed, GPS, radio communications, hull information and other data that can help investigators piece together what happened before and during an incident.

“You will want to be able to prove to authorities and your company that a scaled escalation of force was used. A thorough investigation of the Enrica Lexie incident should include a review of the VDR data to demonstrate the actions taken,” Madden wrote--data that unfortunately, may no longer be available.

A VDR will constantly record data, but will overwrite data after 12 hours if it isn't activated to collect data from a specific incident. "Official sources said that as per norms, the VDR is switched on in the event of a suspected pirate attack [5] or an act like the firing," The Asian Age reports.

Authorities suspect the Italian crew let the recorder overwrite old data in an effort to “intentionally destroy crucial evidence.”

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby SRoy » 22 Feb 2012 15:59

Atri wrote:I do know even know the religion of the fishermen who were killed by the Italians.

Christians.

One hopes that this incident sends out appropriate meesage to the Indian Christians.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 22 Feb 2012 20:34

The argument that it's an Italian flag ship in international waters, so Flag State (Italian) jurisdiction is what comes about..does not hold. The Crime was committed on the Indian flag fishing vessel, not the Italian flag vessel. So the Italian argument does not hold. Since the murder happened on the Indian flag ship, Indian laws will apply on the perpetrators. If an Indian national was murdered by a foreign national and escaped to foreign shores, extradition treaties exist to get the person back for trial. In this case extradition is not necessary as the Ship is held and the perpetrators under 'arrest'.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby nawabs » 22 Feb 2012 21:00

Kids in foster care are not orphans, India tells Norway

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 920233.ece
Reacting strongly to attempts by Norwegian authorities to extend the Residence Permits of two Indian children in foster care there, India today told Norway that they are neither orphans nor stateless persons, and enjoy the protection of the Indian State.

“The Government of India was made aware of the fact that the Norwegian authorities were seeking to extend the Residence Permits of the two young Indian children...The Government immediately conveyed its serious concerns regarding the manner in which this was done to the Norwegian Foreign Office, in Oslo as well as in New Delhi,” Ministry of External Affairs Spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said here.

New Delhi’s terse response came following reports that Norwegian officials were trying to keep the children there after their visas expire next month. The authorities have applied for extension of visa by themselves.

Indian couple Sagarika and Anurup Bhattacharya have been accused of negligence by the child welfare officials in Norway and their two children – one-year-old Aishwarya and three-year-old Abhigyan - were taken away from them last May and placed in foster care.

Mr. Akbaruddin said that “it was pointed out that the children are neither orphans nor Stateless persons, and enjoy the protection of the Indian State and any request for extension of Residence Permit on their behalf should emanate from either the parents or the Indian State”.

He said the Norwegian Government was urged once again to expedite the process of return of the young children to India in view of the humanitarian dimension of the issue.

“It was underlined that India has strong legislative and institutional mechanism to protect the interests of children after their return to India,” he said.

The fresh turn of events came nearly a month after Norwegian childcare authorities agreed to hand over the custody of the children to their Kolkata-based uncle, who is currently in Oslo.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby nawabs » 23 Feb 2012 04:17

An article I fond in The Hindu written by a professor from norway on CPS.
The iron hand that rocks the cradle

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 842917.ece
I must compliment Indian newspapers, not least The Hindu, for giving a thorough coverage to the case of the Indian couple deprived of their children by the Norwegian ‘child protection services' (CPS).

Very many of the comments to the articles, too, are exactly to the point. But you all need to know that this is the way the Scandinavian CPS carries on in general. Sweden is actually the worst of the Scandinavian countries.

One commentator says: “It would be interesting to see how many other white Norwegian children are taken away from their parents just because they don't have ‘proper toys'.” The answer is: thousands, on exactly such a pretext, or any other. Parents who are frightened or who protest are stamped with a quack psychiatric diagnosis. There is not much need of real social work in Norway and what there is (helping out with practical tasks such as washing and cooking in homes where the parents are ill), the social workers do not want to do. The CPS, in order to have work, wants children and they attack anybody who is vulnerable. That means mostly poor people, Norwegians as well as foreigners, because they are helpless to defend themselves. The general population chooses to disbelieve and despise the families, to believe CPS lies, and to believe that they themselves could never be hit because they are such good parents.

The truth is: Almost all families attacked by the CPS are both good and loving. Some need help, e.g. financial; but most of them need nothing other than to be left in peace by this vicious agency and its helpers. The CPS smashes the family and destroys the individuals. In their ideology, family ties are unimportant; they speak not of parents but “caregivers.”

Living off foster care

CPS lives by depriving children of their parents. It is an industry, which pays incredible amounts, especially to psychologists, for “reports” and to foster “parents” (they advertise for people to be foster parents and announce a yearly pay of, say, NOK 430.000 (€ 30.000) plus paid holidays and regular “time off” from the foster children plus allowances for building their house or buying an extra car plus pension entitlement. The business also, of course, provides extra income and extra jobs for social workers.

Frequently, the social workers themselves will take as their own foster children some of the children they remove from parents. Tens of thousands of teachers, kindergarten personnel, health workers, etc., report their “worry” over this and that child to the CPS. The court procedures are those of kangaroo courts. No matter how well those of us who fight against this are able to document the disastrous effects on the lives of both parents and the children, all the changes in legislation and procedures keep going in the wrong direction: The children are the property of the state and every parent who questions anything is accused of being an ill-doer and a danger to his/her children.

“What is this confidentiality about?” another commenter asks. Answer: The Norwegian state is trying to blackmail everyone to shut up about Norwegian child “protection” atrocities as a condition of letting the Indian children out of their clutches. That way Norway can: a) have the case die down by letting the children return to India, b) prevent outspoken comments abroad and avoid several of these countries perhaps joining forces, c) still continue to protect its social “services” — an industry feeding tens of thousands of people doing unproductive “work”, and d) avoid having to face heaps of other cases quite similar to the Stavanger/Kolkata one, some involving Norwegian families, some foreign families.

Another case involving India, because the child's mother is Indian (the father is Swedish), is that of Domenic Johansson, taken by Swedish police on behalf of the Swedish CPS off an aeroplane to stop him and his parents from going to India, and then abducted by Swedish CPS. The charge against the parents was that they wanted home schooling for Domenic:

(“The Domenic Johansson Case. Home schooled boy snatched from plane in Sweden” http://www.nkmr.org/english/ dominic_johansson_case_ home-schooled_boy_snatched_from_ plane.htm)

Fighting state abuse

Cases similar or identical to the Stavanger/Kolkata case are many. There are people trying to fight against this criminal abuse perpetuated by our state, of course, but they themselves are often threatened. Anyone trying to help children who flee the CPS is prosecuted and jailed. It is encouraging for Norwegians trying to get publicity out about CPS abuses (the press is very state-subservient and uninterested) to see, in the bottom right hand corner of the large poster carried in the demonstration in Kolkata (the picture from the newspaper Stavanger Aftenblad is shown on the front page of http://forumr-b-v.net, a little way down from the top), a picture of an ogre with the text “Barnevern” (child protection). That picture has been taken precisely from this website. So, some intelligent Indians seem to have discovered “us”. It warms our hearts.

Although CPS persecution in Norway happens mostly to Norwegian families, foreign families are disproportionately represented. One case, with the same head of social services, Gunnar Toresen, as in the Indian case, concerns two Turkish children, a case from which I have numerous details. I wrote about it in 2006: “The Manavgat case in Turkey — Norway is the kidnapper” on the website “Redd Våre Barn”: http://forum.r-b-v.net/viewtopic.php? f=56&t=628

The case has recently come to life because at long last, a Stavanger newspaper went after some details of the city of Stavanger having paid out half-a-million crowns to be spent as graft to take the children illegally out of Turkey. The man who engineered this is a private investigator who previously worked for the Norwegian crime force and now did this job for the CPS. But, in my view, there are far more important facts: The children had been placed with a Norwegian foster “father” who had already been accused by two previous foster girls to have abused them sexually. (No attention was paid to this, of course, since the CPS do not tolerate criticism of their foster “parents”.) The boys were kidnapped and taken back to Norway, to the very same foster “father” and his partner. This foster “father” has only now been on trial for child ***** and child sexual abuse, and been found guilty.

Back in 2006, the social services and their Norwegian lawyer derided the boys' parents in a Turkish court for making such claims of abuse, expressing contempt and irony towards the parents, holding that the mother wanted her boys back out of prestige and not out of love, since she made no attempt at that time to get back her daughter, only her sons. (The mother had been only 14 when her daughter was born, and the CPS had immediately taken the daughter because of the mother's “immaturity” and never let her know where her daughter was. The sons were born much later and had lived with their parents for several years before they were taken. It was possible for the parents to find them.

I am full of admiration about the actions taken by the family of the Bhattacharyas, the Indian people and newspapers in general. You need to continue being on the alert: You cannot trust a single thing said by the Norwegian CPS, the Norwegian Foreign Minister or any other politician or official. It was foreseeable that Norway would try blackmail in the form of making it a condition for returning the Indian children to their family that everybody must promise to shut up about the case. In that way, Norway can continue to do what it does, the kangaroo courts can go on as before, the foster “parents” and psychologists can go on earning money, myriad social workers trained each year can get jobs. Needless to say, I hope Norway does not succeed with this blackmail.

Comments by Norwegians and Britishers concur with what the professor is saying.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby chetak » 23 Feb 2012 08:11

SRoy wrote:
Atri wrote:I do know even know the religion of the fishermen who were killed by the Italians.

Christians.

One hopes that this incident sends out appropriate meesage to the Indian Christians.


The cardinal belongs to the dominant and wealthy Syro Malabar Church, while the fishermen belong to the Latin Catholic Church.

The two often don't see eye to eye.

Such are the dynamics of church politics in Kerala. :)

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Dhiman » 23 Feb 2012 10:49

sampat wrote:Black Box' Data Could Vindicate or Condemn Italian Security in Maritime Shooting

“Black box” data could provide evidence of the escalation of force that led to an incident in the Indian Ocean that left two fishermen dead, but it may be too late to recover it. 

Authorities suspect the Italian crew let the recorder overwrite old data in an effort to “intentionally destroy crucial evidence.”


The Italians have probably dropped the murder weapon into the ocean by now. Without the murder weapon, there is no way to prove that those bullets that hit the fishing vessel were actually fired from the ship.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby arun » 23 Feb 2012 11:48

chetak wrote:The cardinal belongs to the dominant and wealthy Syro Malabar Church, while the fishermen belong to the Latin Catholic Church.

The two often don't see eye to eye.

Such are the dynamics of church politics in Kerala. :)


In this case they certainly are not seeing eye to eye.

The adherents of the Catholic sect and Latin Church sub sect of Christism one of whose followers was the fisherman murdered by members of the "Catholic" Italian Navy are reportedly upset, and deservedly so, with the comment seemingly supporting Italy by a religious leader of Cardinal Rank belonging to their co-religionists of the Catholic sect though of the Syro-Malabar sub sect :

Latin Catholics express concern

Is the Kerala Chief Minister Oomen Chandy a member of the Catholic sect of Christism? And if so does any know what sub-sect he belongs to?

Philip
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 23 Feb 2012 13:44

Italians.They come in all shapes and sizes and kinds.I have some excellent Italian friends,honourable to a fault,especially those from the island of Sicily.One due in India very soon.They are very much like Indians in behaviour with strong family values.So there is no need for us to respond in knee-jerk fashion.I think that in this case-the killing of Indian fishermen,the GOI/MEA is proceeding correctly.Let the facts of the matter be revealed in full and then let the Indian law/international maritime law,whichever is applicable decide on the merits of the case,where Indian lives have been lost.In fact,this is probably the first time in living memory that the GOI has taken up the rights of an Indian citizen so courageously.We are too familiar with the sufferings of the Indian nationals who work in the Gulf.

Italy in recent years was in the vice-like grip and rule of Berlo and Co. The domination of the Italian media by Berlo and the management of news put out by his publications,brainwashing the locals finally ended as Italians had had enough of his scandalous escapades,that disgraced the reputation of the nation.If some Italians wish to boycott Indian goods,etc.,they are most welcome.They can buy Chinese-an age old tradition dating from the days of Marco Polo in particular!

We must also remember that we have had thus far excellent relations with Italian defence firms,especially for the IN's requirements.Italy is a smaller but significant supplier of Italian defence eqpt.,wiht whom we have had a hassle free experience thus far.

Decline of the West:Great article.

Why the decline of the West ?
By PROF. R..VAIDYANATHAN (PROFESSOR OF FINANCE
INDIAN INSTITUTE OF MANAGEMENT, BANGALORE


Ten years ago, America had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny
Cash. Now it has no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash. Or so the joke
goes.


Only, its no joke. The line is pretty close to reality in the
US. The less said about Europe the better. Both the US and
Europe are in decline. I was asked by a business channel in 2008
about recovery in the US. I mentioned 40 quarters and after
that I was never invited for another discussion.

Recently, another media person asked me the same question and
I answered 80 quarters. He was shocked since he was told some
sprouts of recovery had been seen in the American economy.

It is important to recognise that the dominance of the West
has been there only for last 200-and-odd years. According to
Angus Maddisons pioneering OECD study, India and China had
nearly 50 percent of global GDP as late as the 1820s. Hence India
and China are not emerging or rising powers. They are retrieving
their original position.


In 1990, the share of the G-7 in world GDP (on a purchasing
power parity basis) was 51 percent and that of emerging
markets 36 percent. But in 2011, it is the reverse. So the
dominant west is a myth.

Similarly, the crisis. It is a US-Europe crisis and not a
global one. The two wars which were essentially European wars
were made out to be world wars with one English leader commenting
that we will fight the Germans to the last Indian.

In this economic scenario, countries like India are made to
feel as if they are in a crisis. Since the West says theres a
crisis, we swallow it hook, line and sinker.
But it isnt so. At no point of time in the last 20 years has
foreign investment direct and portfolio exceeded 10 percent
of our domestic investment. Our growth is due to our domestic
savings which is again predominately household savings. Our
housewives require awards for our growth not any western fund
manager.

The crisis faced by the West is primarily because it has
forgotten a six-letter word called saving which, again, is the
result of forgetting another six letter word called family. The
West has nationalized families over the last 60 years. Old
age, ill health, single motherhood everything is the responsibility of the state.

When family is a burden and children an encumbrance, society
goes for a toss. Household savings have been negative in the
US for long. The total debt to GDP ratio is as high as 400
percent in many countries, including UK. Not only that, the
West is facing a severe demographic crisis. The population of
Europe during the First World War was nearly 25 percent and
today it is around 11 percent and expected to become 3 percent
in another 20 years. Europe will disappear from the world map
unless migrants from Africa and Asia take it over.

The demographic crisis impacts the West in other ways.Social
security goes for a toss since people are living longer and
not many from below contribute to their pensions through taxes.
So the nationalisation of families becomes a burden on the state.

European work culture has become worse with even our own Tata
complaining about the work ethic of British managers. In
France and Italy, the weekend starts on Friday morning itself.
The population has become lazy and state-dependent.
In the UK, the situation is worse with drunkenness becoming a
common problem. Parents do not have control over children and
the Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregation in London
said: There are all signs of arteriosclerosis of a culture and a
civilization grown old. Me has taken precedence over We and
pleasure today over viability tomorrow. (The Times: 8 September ).

Married couples make up less than half (45 percent) of all
households in the US, say recent data from the Census Bureau.
Also there is a huge growth in unmarried couples and single
parent families (mostly poor, black women). Society has become
dysfunctional or disorganized in the West. The government is
trying to be organized.
In India, society is organized and government disorganized.
Because of disorganized society in the West the state has to
take care of families. The market crash is essentially due to the
adoption of a model where there is consumption with borrowings
and no savings. How long will Asian savings be able to sustain
the western spending binge?

According to a recent report in The Wall Street Journal (10
October 2011), nearly half of US households receive government
benefits like food stamps, subsidized housing, cash welfare or
Medicare or Medicaid (the federal-state health care programs
for the poor or social security.

The US is also a stock market economy where half the
households are investors and they have been hit hard by bank
and corporate failures. Even now less than 5 percent of our
household financial savings goes to the stock market. Same in
China and Japan.
Declining empires are dangerous. They will try to peddle their
failed models to us and we will swallow it since colonial
genes are very much present here. You will find more Indians
heading global corporations since India is a very large market
and one way to capture it is to make Indian sepoys work for it.

A declining West is best for the rest and also for the West,
which needs to rethink its failed models and rework its
priorities. For the rest like us the fact that the West has failed
will be accepted by us only after some western scholars tell
us the same. Till then we will try to imitate them and create
more dysfunctional families.


We need to recognize that Big Government and Big Business are
twin dangers for average citizens. India faces both and they
are two asuras we need to guard against. The Leftists in the
National Advisory Council want all families to be nationalized
and governed by a Big State and reform marketers of the CII
variety want Big Business to flourish under crony capitalism.
Beware of the twin evils since both look upon India as a
charity house or as a market and not as an ancient civilization.

chetak
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby chetak » 23 Feb 2012 14:30

arun wrote:
chetak wrote:The cardinal belongs to the dominant and wealthy Syro Malabar Church, while the fishermen belong to the Latin Catholic Church.

The two often don't see eye to eye.

Such are the dynamics of church politics in Kerala. :)


In this case they certainly are not seeing eye to eye.

The adherents of the Catholic sect and Latin Church sub sect of Christism one of whose followers was the fisherman murdered by members of the "Catholic" Italian Navy are reportedly upset, and deservedly so, with the comment seemingly supporting Italy by a religious leader of Cardinal Rank belonging to their co-religionists of the Catholic sect though of the Syro-Malabar sub sect :

Latin Catholics express concern

Is the Kerala Chief Minister Oomen Chandy a member of the Catholic sect of Christism? And if so does any know what sub-sect he belongs to?



Currently oomen chandy is a staunch and true believer and primary member of the Church of our Lady of perpetual Self Preservation (dedicated to the cloistered and recent order of St Antonia of lusiana, italy). Some openly but most Indian poloticos secretly belong to this very cathloic, [ The word in English can mean also "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing" ] very influential and accomplished sect. :)

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Klaus » 23 Feb 2012 14:56

Is the Enrica Lexie crew party to a failed or partly successful attempt to spy on coastal based defense infra? IOW, is there an intel angle to the lead-up to the shooting murders?

The shootings look like a last ditch attempt to cut loose and make a dash for it.

Philip
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 23 Feb 2012 17:16

In the age of Google Earth and spy sats,there is little that cannot be observed from the skies.There have been suspicious pvt. yachts snooping around our ports and bases in the past,therefore it is unliklely that the tanker was snooping around our coast.There is one particular detail though.From all pics,it is clear that the tanker is empty.Was it transiting to the Gulf or on the way back? The ships log should be examined to see its last ports of call.

As to the accuracy of where the ship was when the incident happened,within or outside Indian waters,it is clear that even if it was outside Indian waters,it was pretty colse to the intl. maritime boundary and to imagine that the ship was under attack from Somali pirates-who have had a very hard time when confronmted by Indian warships,indicates that either the marines were spooked out of their wits and sh*ttng bricks (hardly likely for tough marines),or were p*ssed out of thir wits and took pot shots for pleasure.The latter seems more likely.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby vishvak » 27 Feb 2012 18:19

harbans wrote:The argument that it's an Italian flag ship in international waters, so Flag State (Italian) jurisdiction is what comes about..does not hold. The Crime was committed on the Indian flag fishing vessel, not the Italian flag vessel. So the Italian argument does not hold. Since the murder happened on the Indian flag ship, Indian laws will apply on the perpetrators. If an Indian national was murdered by a foreign national and escaped to foreign shores, extradition treaties exist to get the person back for trial. In this case extradition is not necessary as the Ship is held and the perpetrators under 'arrest'.

The lack of comments from well-wishers of India is alarming in case of the Indian parents and children in the custody of Europeans countries. Hopefully, Indian children in Europe wold not have to go through what natives went through in Canada.
Canada commission issues details abuse of native children
A commission examining Canada's policy to separate indigenous children from their families says the abuse created a legacy of turmoil.

From the country's formation in the 19th Century until the 1970s, the children had to attend schools where they were stripped of their identity.

Many of the 150,000 children also suffered physical abuse from the staff at the church-run boarding schools.

See how hollow is the charade of civilization. If in a school run by a Hindu organization even such a single such incident happens it could be an international issue. On the other hand the moral keepers of Europe are silently doing bidding for Europeans and only Europeans.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby pgbhat » 28 Feb 2012 09:19


arun
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby arun » 04 Mar 2012 14:14

Those onboard the Italian ship Enrica Lexie which is involved in the murder of two Indian’s off the coast of Kerala are also suspected of intentionally destroying e-mail and voice data recorder evidence.

Noose tightens on 'Enrica Lexie' captain Umberto Vitelli

arun
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby arun » 04 Mar 2012 14:30

Family of murder victim refuses to meet the Deputy Foreign Minister of Italy whose jaw must certainly be aching from all the verbal gymnastics of claiming to care for the Indian’s murdered even while supporting the Italian Navy personnel who committed the murders.

A fine display of doublespeak from the Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Staffan de Mistura.:

Family of killed fisherman refuses to meet Italian minister

vishvak
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby vishvak » 04 Mar 2012 14:35

arun wrote:Family of murder victim refuses to meet the Deputy Foreign Minister of Italy whose jaw must certainly be aching from all the verbal gymnastics of claiming to care for the Indian’s murdered even while supporting the Italian Navy personnel who committed the murders.

A fine display of doublespeak from the Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Staffan de Mistura.:

Family of killed fisherman refuses to meet Italian minister

Indian society must rise up for benefit of Indian fishermen and family so that such 'international' issues are treated well as per the laws of the land and shielded from & manipulated by external factors.

arun
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby arun » 04 Mar 2012 16:42

arun wrote:Family of murder victim refuses to meet the Deputy Foreign Minister of Italy whose jaw must certainly be aching from all the verbal gymnastics of claiming to care for the Indian’s murdered even while supporting the Italian Navy personnel who committed the murders.

A fine display of doublespeak from the Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Staffan de Mistura.:

Family of killed fisherman refuses to meet Italian minister


Yet more doublespeak from Italy this time delivered by the Italian Defence Minister Giampaolo Di Paola.

Let Italy’s protestation of respect for India etc also be looked at against the backdrop that Italy is a leading light, along with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, of the “Uniting for Consensus” aka “Coffee Club” grouping at the UN which has worked to block India’s elevation to being a permanent member of the Security Council.:

Di Paola calls on India to respect Italy

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Lisa » 06 Mar 2012 22:36

Sweden in secret Saudi arms factory project - report

We have the best arms export laws in the world, sniff, sniff!

From very enlightened EU state on how to run a nation. If you suspect the
state may be committing an offence you set up a private company instead
to commit the offence so you can plead ignorance!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17271596

arun
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby arun » 07 Mar 2012 07:45

arun wrote:
arun wrote:Family of murder victim refuses to meet the Deputy Foreign Minister of Italy whose jaw must certainly be aching from all the verbal gymnastics of claiming to care for the Indian’s murdered even while supporting the Italian Navy personnel who committed the murders.

A fine display of doublespeak from the Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Staffan de Mistura.:

Family of killed fisherman refuses to meet Italian minister


Yet more doublespeak from Italy this time delivered by the Italian Defence Minister Giampaolo Di Paola.

Let Italy’s protestation of respect for India etc also be looked at against the backdrop that Italy is a leading light, along with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, of the “Uniting for Consensus” aka “Coffee Club” grouping at the UN which has worked to block India’s elevation to being a permanent member of the Security Council.:

Di Paola calls on India to respect Italy


The lack of concern by Italy for murdered Indian's, even those who follow the Catholic sect of Christism, is more and more evident:

Italy summons Indian ambassador over marines' arrest

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Gaurav_S » 07 Mar 2012 08:25

If Italians claim this crime was committed in International waters, then what's the evidence? Why were we slow in recovering VDR/black box?

Couldn't find answers in previous page, so asking.

shiv
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2012 08:45

Gaurav_S wrote:If Italians claim this crime was committed in International waters, then what's the evidence? Why were we slow in recovering VDR/black box?

Couldn't find answers in previous page, so asking.


What black box? I must have missed the news.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Gaurav_S » 07 Mar 2012 09:23

shiv wrote:
Gaurav_S wrote:If Italians claim this crime was committed in International waters, then what's the evidence? Why were we slow in recovering VDR/black box?

Couldn't find answers in previous page, so asking.


What black box? I must have missed the news.


Voyage data recorder (VDR) acts as blackbox on ships recording many details including ships position. Where is this VDR? Was it ever recovered? If not, on what evidence are we going to prosecute Italians? How we going to prove ship was in Indian water?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_data_recorder

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby uddu » 07 Mar 2012 09:52

The captain of the ship can be arrested for destroying evidence. If those things that are necessary to be kept are missing then the captain is at fault. He must be immediately arrested.

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Gaurav_S » 07 Mar 2012 10:31

Some soul on BR who may be aware of any international laws around keeping VDR? Is it mandatory to have VDR on such vessels? What are the rules if VDR is missing or if its compromised?

Found it:
Passenger ships and ships other than passenger ships of 3000 gross tonnage and upwards constructed on or after 1 July 2002 must carry voyage data recorders (VDRs) to assist in accident investigations, under regulations adopted in 2000, which entered into force on 1 July 2002.


http://www.imo.org/OurWork/Safety/Navig ... s/VDR.aspx

Need to find or do educated guess of weight of this ship Erot*ca Lexie or whatever.

Philip
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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 07 Mar 2012 15:06

First India,then Russia and now Sri Lanka too! Today's media reports have an account of yet another "kidnapping" by a Norwegian child care entity ,this time of a Sri Lankan child.What's with these Norwegian cradle-snatchers?

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Re: India-EU News & Analysis

Postby harbans » 07 Mar 2012 15:36

Voyage data recorder (VDR) acts as blackbox on ships recording many details including ships position. Where is this VDR? Was it ever recovered? If not, on what evidence are we going to prosecute Italians? How we going to prove ship was in Indian water?


This is not required. Even if the ship was in international waters, the murders took place on an Indian flag ship (The Fishing vessel). Maritime and International law are very clear that even if the vessel is in international waters, the flag state rule applies where the crime has taken place. The crime (murders/ killings) took place on technically under International law on Indian soil. So this argument being propped by Italians is totally false.

Secondly the VDR may not give the required info. Information gets rubbed off. It's very easy to find the position of the ship when at sea. There is a GPS log maintained every half hour/ hour maximum. Just ask for that. Any tampering will be easily noticed. It also should tally with positions marked in the Deck Log book. Also the charts will be marked for positions every 30 min/ hour minute on it's way to the Indian Port right from where it started off the ME..so all 3 must match (GPS Log, Official Deck Log book and the ship position markings on the charts). It's within the purview of all Port authorities in the world to access these documents. Any refusal to port authorities will result in seizure of the ship. And If logs are tampered it's a big crime and the ship can be seized by Indian authorities and the Captain arrested and jailed for possibly more time than an unintended homicide.. (Courtesy an ex ChEng and GM Technical of a major shipping concern at Singapore)

So a VDR is not required to know the exact position. But this is not required. Assume even if the ship was in international waters, the murders took place on Indian flag ship=Indian soil. So Indian jurisdiction is applicable under International Maritime law. Flag state rules apply. Italians are trying to fudge that part.

Need to find or do educated guess of weight of this ship Erot*ca Lexie or whatever.


It's a fairly medium sized tanker..

Ship Type: Oil products tanker
Year Built: 2008
Length x Breadth: 20 m X 5 m
Gross Tonnage: 58000, DeadWeight: 104769 t
Speed recorded (Max / Average): 12.5 / 12.4 knots
Flag: Italy [IT]
Call Sign: ICKC
IMO: 9489297, MMSI: 247232700


http://www.vesseltracker.com/en/Ships/E ... 89297.html

But as i mentioned before and now, there is no requirement to prove the ship was in Indian or international waters..the killings took place on Indian soil. So Indian law applies.



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