Baluchistan: The Story of Another Pakistan Military Genocide

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 22 Feb 2012 18:32

Barhamdagh Bugti supports US bill on Balochistan

Barhamdagh Bugti, separatist leader and founder of Baloch Republican Party (BRP), has said he supports US Congress bill, espousing self-determination for Balochistan. Talking to media via telephone on Wednesday, the Baloch leader said with the tabling of US resolution on Balochistan, the matter had now become integrity of Pakistan. Talking about the proposed All Parties Conference on Balochiostan, he said the elements responsible for atrocities on Baloch people were now convening the APCs. He said that situation in Balochistan was not hidden from any one and nobody paid heed towards the province’s aggravating situation over last two years.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 22 Feb 2012 22:41

QUETTA: Supporting the US congressional bill on Balochistan, Baloch Republican Party’s self-exiled chief Brahamdagh Bugti has welcomed all foreign intervention in the province whether it is by the US, Nato or India.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/340137/will ... arahmdagh/

Brahamdagh said the change of heart was rooted in apprehensions over Punjab’s sovereignty. “Pakistani politicians like Nawaz Sharif are now visiting Balochistan and inquiring about the plight of Baloch people. There are discussions and talks on TV channels and print media in recent days about Balochistan. Because they are now worried about the sovereignty of Punjab and [want] to protect Punjab’s interest.”

I think this problem needs a UN Resolution.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Feb 2012 22:47

A self-determined Balouch, followed by becoming an Indian protectorate, with an independent FP and economy. India should buy ALL their oil/gas to keep the afloat.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Feb 2012 23:10

ManuT wrote:I think this problem needs a UN Resolution.

India would most probably vote against such a UN Resolution!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 22 Feb 2012 23:34

RajeshA wrote:
ManuT wrote:I think this problem needs a UN Resolution.
India would most probably vote against such a UN Resolution!

Perhaps the salvation to the Kashmir issue would lie in this hypothetical UN Baloch resolution. Watch the pakis come to their senses then.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Feb 2012 00:21

The gloves are off for sure. end game is getting closer.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Feb 2012 00:37

More than UN resolution , Balochis need sniper reifles and Chinese Anzas to shove in Poaq Mush.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 01:07

I don't trust this will go anywhere, for the reason that, first, the bill has to be passed, I am pretty sure TSP has already put it's lobbying machine in motion to curtail the bill. Secondly, US would back down if TSP is ready to GUBO once again and promise to fall in line for the time being. Third, even if it goes to UN, taller than mountain friend will veto, it has it's Gwadar project to protect at the least even if doesn't care for it's best friend, so I think PRC will veto when it comes to that. So many things can go wrong. But it's a good start to keep TSP very nervous. I wish we jump in overtly and say Balochis must have the right to self determination and open give arms, and say we are giving them moral support only, why look away or mince words.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2012 01:40

venug wrote:Third, even if it goes to UN, taller than mountain friend will veto, it has it's Gwadar project to protect at the least even if doesn't care for it's best friend, so I think PRC will veto when it comes to that.

venug ji,

when it does come up in the UNSC, there can be many other things going on! Perhaps there is something on at the time that China values more than Baluchistan, may be its own life! Who knows what strategic cards one may be able to collect against China at that time!

It is all business!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Feb 2012 01:50

I think China and Iran (apart from Pakis) would come together to prevent the US from helping the oppressed Baluchis gain independence. I think the fact that Iran will definitively form an alliance with China-TSP is something that prevents India from getting involved in the Baluch cause.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2012 02:02

Carl ji,

we should be talking to Russia also. If Baluchistan becomes free, Russia Oil & Gas companies can sell India abundance of Gas!

Iran is in favor of keeping West and India out of Central Asia, so in the case of Baluchistan we could look for support from the Gulf also, because if Baluchistan goes from the control of Pakistan, Iran would lose all connectivity to Pakistan, and thus its influence there would also decrease, something Saudis may be interested in. Of course more Oil & Gas from Central Asia may arrive in the market, which could press down the prices hurting Saudis also. But there is some possibility there. Oman would be happy to see Baluchistan separate from Pakistan.

The thing is we need to convince the Afghans more that Independence for Baluchistan means Independence for Afghans also, independence from both Pakistani and Iranian control, so the Afghans should throw in their lot with Baluch independence movement and support it in any way possible. With Baluchistan free, Afghanistan can become a hub for mining.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 02:04

RajeshA garu,

Have been reading your insights, thank you for enriching me with your gyan. You are right UNSC is too far, and IF PRC's testimonials are squeezed, it too can let go of any plans it has. But who will do the honors of squeezing China where it hurts? I know we can do that, but not sure if we want to. May be in couple of decades when we have the financial muscle to stand up to it. Till that happens, with the TSP gifting away it's territory, PRC will be more than willing to hold to it's new possessions in view of it's own strategic depth vis-a vis India.

And US is highly unreliable, they never stood for what is right as we all know, it is opportunistic nation which sees it's own gains, if TSP does a taqqiya again, US will swallow it, it has been doing that for 60 years, so why should we assume it has learnt it's lessons and now they really want to side with Balochis? there is no sign of change of heart. Obama is ready to give 2.5 billion more and the new P-3Cs it is giving to TSP, it is more than likely than US is going to do what it does best - Nothing. It is just wishful thinking on our part to assume US will stand by Baluchis. Infact if you ask me, Baluchis will benefit if they trust Indians more than Americans. Not sure if we are providing them any support but we make a resolve to support Baluchis, it will be executed, unlike US.
So long way to go, nothing concrete on the horizon, atleast to me. Time can change many things, but I think with ethnic cleansing time is not on Baluchis side.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Feb 2012 02:17

RajeshA ji,

But Russia, too, has a relationship with Iran for its W.Asia policy. A lot of pieces will have to move around on the board to create the scenario that you indicate.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 02:31

Carl ji, RajeshA ji,

I am with Carlji, Iran will side with PRC and TSP, after all they too have Baluch territory they want to protect. I am not sure why Saudi will support Baluchis when they are bum pals of TSP and have vested interests in bank roiling TSP. Baluchis are in iron grip, not much of support for them for now, May be Oman, but I don't see Saudi siding with Baluchis unless US asks them to for some reason. Russia is too far away to Influence, even if they want to, how will they? through Afghanistan? RajeshA ji is right about gaining Afghanistan's support, but again in 2013-2014, Taliban are going to take Afghanistan, so who will they support? recently one of the Taliban guys said that they have nothing to do with Baluchi movement and they want to see TSP unified, so I dont think you can Afghanistan's support if they come to power there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Feb 2012 02:59

Oman has role to play in mobilising GCCC. China can still get their oil and gas via Gwadhar. Indians and Unkil dont need to object . It has to be all about Poaq-Iran Khatan issue only. India wont need either Iran or Poaqstan to access CAR . It will make Pushtun rich so they can lord over Pakjabi people.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Feb 2012 03:03

^^^ Among GCC members, Oman has the closest relationship with, both, Iran and India. Previously, Oman has even rebuffed the US in order to maintain and develop its relations with Iran. So it will require a major khiyanat from Oman to get aggressively involved in Baluch independence struggle at the cost of its relationship with Iran. They seem quite content just retaining influence there without being bothered about managing a whole new state squeezed between powerful neighbors.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 03:27

One game changer in the immediate future is IF something happens to Iran through US/Israeli action. Too far fetched, but can influence events in Baluchistan. If Iran is in turmoil via US action, who knows Oman can then side India, if we want to support Baluchis? I think I am dreaming too much.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Feb 2012 06:54

shyamd wrote:The gloves are off for sure. end game is getting closer.

I would say you are fairly close. US would like bases, however small, in A'stan. And, access to them. Even if the Prez believes in integrity, the intelcom has to devise an alternative.

RajeshA wrote:
ManuT wrote:I think this problem needs a UN Resolution.
India would most probably vote against such a UN Resolution!

As long as India does the opposite in private, that is just fine.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Feb 2012 07:05

The trick to keep Iran (and actually A'stan too) quiet is to make sure that an independent Baluchistan is carved ONLY from TSP.

Also to be sure this is not going to happen without some amount of convulsions in the region. China is doing everything to prevent it from happening, thus there is a sense of urgency to make it happen.

IF it is possible let Iran be neutral - tough going for sure, but it has to be done.

Then sideline China and get the rest of the nations to buy in.

It can be done. It should be done.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 08:04

The baluchis also want territories liberated from Iran too. Their struggle is not just limited to TSP. That makes the whole support to them tricky. You can't just support Baluchis without angering Iranians. Iranians are certain to support TSP in this regard. So liberation of Baluchis is not going to be that easy and will simmer on till atleast something changes. Weakening of TSP or Iran or Unkil really supporting Baluchi struggle, I don't think we will support them knowing that Iranians will not welcome such a move from us.

archan · Post by **archan** » 23 Feb 2012 10:29

They need to be told to go easy on Iranian part and accept the paki part (which by itself would be substantial). You cannot always win back all the land lost by your ancestors. Time changes, and you need to follow. Either take the paki part and set up a peaceful nation, get strong in the next 20-25 years, and maybe then negotiate with Iran. Who knows what the scenario would be then. Or keep getting raped by the pakjabis behind the iron curtain. It is not like you are in a super strong position to choose.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 23 Feb 2012 12:21

The bill is just pressure tactics to make TSP fall in line. Rohrabacher has done similar things with Indian Kashmir in the past.
Expect nothing out of it unless the Pakis become more obstinate. Besides it is widely believed that US helped TSP in getting
rid of Bugti.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 23 Feb 2012 12:55

But they might be starting something which they cannot stop by giving political backing to the Baluch struggle. Those who were part of the struggle overtly or covertly stand to gain a lot from this political capital being invested by unkil. Unkil may intend only to put pressure but it can be utilised by baloch parties in a lot of ways.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 23 Feb 2012 18:56

Baluchistan right now is like Syria - problem is, there is no media coverage (or very little). Thats because no one wants to rock the boat too far. But the revolution in Baluchistan has definitely started. We can break them apart now if we wanted.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 23 Feb 2012 19:23

Mr Mengal posed a very pertinent question: “People get killed in Karachi and Frontier [Khyber Pakhtunkhwa] every day but our ‘beloved’ army does not react on these killings. Why does it only react in Balochistan? Mutilated bodies [of the Baloch] are found only in Balochistan. I am sorry to say but this army is only for Punjab, not Pakistan. It only reacts when Punjabis are killed. Either that or I am not part of Pakistan,” said Mengal sahib. He further added that “Balochistan has reached a point of no return” and the youth of Balochistan are the ones in control of things and they do not want to remain with Pakistan “because they are being systematically eliminated and forced to seek refuge in the mountains”.

'Barhamdagh Bugti, separatist leader and founder of Baloch Republican Party (BRP), has said he supports US Congress bill, espousing self-determination for Balochistan. Talking to media via telephone on Wednesday, the Baloch leader said with the tabling of US resolution on Balochistan, the matter had now become integrity of Pakistan. Talking about the proposed All Parties Conference on Balochiostan, he said the elements responsible for atrocities on Baloch people were now convening the APCs. He said that situation in Balochistan was not hidden from any one and nobody paid heed towards the province’s aggravating situation over last two years'.

Mengal sounds like Mangal = good; auspicious

Barham sounds like Brahm = Lord Brahma

Have Balochis been able to retain Indic culture after so many centuries?

Usually, Paki names are Islamic.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2012 19:30

shyamd wrote:Baluchistan right now is like Syria - problem is, there is no media coverage (or very little). Thats because no one wants to rock the boat too far. But the revolution in Baluchistan has definitely started. We can break them apart now if we wanted.

The Serdars would be making billions if they later on accede to India, because Indian forces would provide security and integrity of Baluchistan, and the Serdars would not have to do the fighting on their own. They will be able to concentrate more on the economics.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 20:04

RajeshA garu,

If we are desirous of Balochistan to integrate into India, we have to play a very prominent role either covertly or overtly in helping them oppose TSP now. Without that I doubt they would. Right now US is making all the right noises for them. They would be very happy to welcome American interests than Indian at this point. And secondly, Bangladesh is an example, we helped them so much, yet I don't see them like us so much, leave alone the being favourable to us. So why should we expect Balochistan to agree and integrate into India? That too they want to be independent. So I think we should be satisfied if they are favourable to us, allow us trade access and/or military access to their lands in the event of war with TSP.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 23 Feb 2012 20:15

Russian "advisers" are in Baluchistan. I do not know what they are advising but knowing Russian friends for over half a century we would probably never know! They leave zero residual presence. May be they are just there to piss off the Americans or Putin is going more paranoid than normal.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Feb 2012 20:20

shyamd wrote:Baluchistan right now is like Syria - problem is, there is no media coverage (or very little). Thats because no one wants to rock the boat too far. But the revolution in Baluchistan has definitely started. We can break them apart now if we wanted.

Who is "we", and why would we not want it at this time?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Feb 2012 20:21

venug ji,

Baluchistan is surrounded by powers which are much stronger than them - Persians to the East, Pushtun to the North, Pakjabis to the East. Baluchis by themselves are a small population. By itself Baluchistan can never protect its borders, and others would infringe them with impunity.

For that they need a strong army, but an Army which does not try to subjugate them or steal them, as the Pakjabis have done. With the Indian Army they would be having the best protection of their border possible. Only the Indian State can ensure that Baluchistan remains politically stable in which social development and economic progress can take place.

So regardless of whether India helps them in their freedom or not, that would always remain an issue.

I personally am more in favor of India giving Baluchis material support while denying them political support in the beginning. We should be giving them all the money, weapons, training, intelligence they need to push back Pakistani Army. On the other hand, we can continue to keep silent and let the political support come from America and Europe.

If India gets involved politically too prominently, then Baluchi Independence would look like an Indian game plan, and the Westerners would not buy the Baluch story and extend support.

India can come into the picture later on, when the rock has already gained momentum tumbling down the slope!

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 23 Feb 2012 20:33

From Wiki:
In 1947, the Khan of Kalat reportedly acceded to the dominion of India. But his accession papers were returned by Jawaharlal Nehru, the Prime Minister of India.[16][17][18] As a result, Kalat joined Pakistan on the agreement that defence, currency, foreign office and finance will be controlled by the federal govt but that the rest the province will control by itself. However, after death of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, formation of one unit changed this situation and it was merged into Pakistan like other areas.

Is this true that Nehru rejected Khan's proposal?How foolish is that?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Feb 2012 20:35

RajeshA garu, I agree and I see your point. But I don't know if we have such plans if it comes to that. We also have to show the Balochistan freedom fighters why integrating to Indian union is better, else we would have any other insurgency at our hands the way TSP faces now. But I think this is not much of a problem, if we give the rights of Baluchis back, so that they can the lion's share of oil and mineral resource profits, they certainly would welcome that.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 23 Feb 2012 21:04

Jhujar wrote:More than UN resolution , Balochis need sniper reifles and Chinese Anzas to shove in Poaq Mush.

That should be in the resolution too, using Libya as a precedent.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 23 Feb 2012 21:05

WRT to the appeal to India, maybe Karzai can be used as a precedent to look at Balochistan.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 23 Feb 2012 21:15

RajeshA wrote:
ManuT wrote:I think this problem needs a UN Resolution.
India would most probably vote against such a UN Resolution!

That's no surprise sir, if you remember GOI policy, at the time of hijacking of a PIA flight by the Baloch in response to Chagai hills being used as a nuke testing site.

This was AFTER a history of support to Khalistani hijackers, and the cooperation GOI extended in making sure flight lands in Pakistan was repaid with planning and execution of IC-814 by TSP State within 18 months.

But, I am thinking of looking at this as a Karzai moment.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 23 Feb 2012 21:37

I am no expert, but, I would want the TSP lobby which uses US aid (==US Tax dollars) in the US to spend more time chasing issues like India's seat at the UN security council and explaining the Balochistan issue than using US-aid money to lobby for more toys and money.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 23 Feb 2012 22:40

Shankaraa wrote:From Wiki:
In 1947, the Khan of Kalat reportedly acceded to the dominion of India. But his accession papers were returned by Jawaharlal Nehru, the Prime Minister of India.[16][17][18] As a result, Kalat joined Pakistan on the agreement that defence, currency, foreign office and finance will be controlled by the federal govt but that the rest the province will control by itself. However, after death of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, formation of one unit changed this situation and it was merged into Pakistan like other areas.

Is this true that Nehru rejected Khan's proposal?How foolish is that?

That's a fact. In a way, I am glad (others may not agree with me). A situation similar to East and West pakistan would have emerged. Just like the bangladeshis, the baloch have no love lost for India (and Hindus). Please disregard what they say in public. Balochistan (or Kalat) was an independent nation for almost a year. They got their independence before India did.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Feb 2012 00:34

RajeshA wrote: The Serdars would be making billions if they later on accede to India, because Indian forces would provide security and integrity of Baluchistan, and the Serdars would not have to do the fighting on their own. They will be able to concentrate more on the economics.

Problem is Desh is worried about somebody doing that in Kashmir and also having to deal with 2 TSP's (or 3 if you include BD) as BK asserted. India has to tread carefully. Its also all down to management.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Feb 2012 00:41

Carl wrote:
shyamd wrote:Baluchistan right now is like Syria - problem is, there is no media coverage (or very little). Thats because no one wants to rock the boat too far. But the revolution in Baluchistan has definitely started. We can break them apart now if we wanted.
Who is "we", and why would we not want it at this time?

We - India.
US is worried about pull out - doesnt want to be reliant on Russian kindness too much,as the US will hjave to give back something in return which may be more detrimental.. So needs TSP.
Iran and Pak will collaborate to keep Baluch split. PRC will join in because of Tibet and Xinjiang.

India can easily split Baluchistan if it wants. They are extremely weak right now and tipping over to the other side(independence). This is not new, the type of ops the TSPians were doing there from April/May last year showed that US was building up the pressure and driving local public opinion.

Baluch is hanging by the thread, India can do the needful very easily.

The writing is on the wall - post US pull out the US will do the job. We are keeping our hands clean for the last year or 2.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Feb 2012 01:53

shyamd ji, thanks. I'm still unconvinced that it is such an "easy" task, given the logistics. But we all await an end to the ongoing merciless genocide of the Baluchis by the Pakis.