Indus Water Treaty

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Gagan
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 07:25

Those nano sats don't have a very good resolution
The real thing is the cartosat that was launched with them. The cameras are sensitive enough to read car number plates!

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 07:30

Watch what Khawaja Asif said on media. Pakistan admits that there is no water loss due to kishanganga, they have a 10% drop in power output from Neelum Jhelum, even that they will try to recover by building some other project downstream.

Further, the neutral expert castigated them and wondered why Pakistan was pursuing and starting the Neelum Jhelum, after India had already started the kishenganga project.

That video can be referred to to silence all paki talk show questions

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 07:33

What advantage does India have from the Indus Water Treaty hain ji?
This thing is only a licence to allow these uneducated Pakis to want to know, demand to see the designs of indian projects in J&k, take India to court on each and every project in J&K.

Another one of Chacha's gifts to the nation

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 22 Mar 2017 08:37

India, Pak. to review Miyar project - Mubashir Zaidi, The Hindu
India and Pakistan on Tuesday agreed on redesigning the Miyar Hydroelectric project, at the end of two-day talks of Indus Water Commissioners in Islamabad, the state-run {Paki} media reported here [Islamabad] as the official announcement is awaited.

It was also agreed that the Lower Kalnai and the Pakal Dul projects would be inspected again.


The Pakistani delegation was headed by Mirza Asif Saeed while P.K. Saxena led the Indian team.

The talks between the two countries began after 22 months when Pakistan in 2015 skipped consultations following objections on the Kishenganga and the Ratle hydroelectric projects by India.

Washington meet

Kishenganga is in arbitration while officials of the two countries are meeting in Washington next month on the Ratle project on the invitation of the World Bank.

Pakistan’s request for arbitration on Ratle is still pending with the World Bank
, which is the guarantor of the 1960 Indus Water Treaty.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 22 Mar 2017 10:10

India takes Pak water woes seriously

http://nation.com.pk/national/22-Mar-20 ... -seriously

Islamabad - After Pakistan’s objection, India has withdrawn the design of 120MW Miyar hydropower project, located across Miyar Nalla in Indian Occupied Kashmir.A communiqué issued here said that during two-day meeting of the Permanent Indus Commission (PIC) discussions were held on India’s proposed Miyar, Lower Kalnai and Pakal Dul hydropower projects as well as on matters pertaining to exchange of data and conducting tours and meetings of the PIC.Permanent Indus Commission has discussed three ongoing hydroelectric projects on Chenab in held Kashmir including Pakal Dul project (1,000MW), Miyar (120MW) and Lower Kalnai hydropower project (48MW).According the communiqué India has withdrawn its design of Miyar project, as Pakistan had made objections on it in the previous meetings of the commission. The hydroelectric project is located at Miyar Nalla, a right-bank main tributary of River Chenab.On the pondage, Pakistan has estimated pondage of the project at 0.28 million m3. According the Pakistan stand the subsequent DSL is at 2842.91 Masl which is 5.68m higher than India’s DSL i.e. 2837.23 masl.
Besides this, Pakistan has proposed a surface gated free-overflow spillway design. In addition, Pakistan has also highlighted an anomaly in India’s spillway design that it can pass the design flood of 832 m3/S with water level 4m below the DSL.On intake of the project, Pakistan has proposed to adopt a surface intake instead of submerged intake. Surface intake is more treaty compliant and preferable to prevent the coarse sediment ingress into the power tunnel, the official said.In the discussions on the other two projects, Indian side agreed to reconsider Pakistan’s observations and to respond to those in the next meeting of the Commission.The communiqué further said that Indian side also agreed to tour of inspection for Pakistan’s Indus Commission which is expected to be arranged before August 2017.During the first day of PIC meeting Pakistan side demanded the Indian commission allow visit to the sites of three controversial hydropower projects located in Occupied Kashmir, but the Indian side declined the demand, saying that the condition in the hydroelectric project area was not conducive for the visits, a source said. However, during second day of the talks they showed their readiness to arrange a visit after the snow melting.Pakistan had raised objection on the freeboard of the project as it wanted it to be 1m, and India had agreed to this demand in 111th Meeting of the PIC, the official said.On the pondage, Pakistan has estimated pondage of the project at 0.28 million m3. According the Pakistan stand the subsequent DSL is at 2842.91 Masl which is 5.68m higher than India’s DSL i.e. 2837.23 masl.Besides this, Pakistan has proposed a surface gated free-overflow spillway design. In addition, Pakistan has also highlighted an anomaly in India’s spillway design that it can pass the design flood of 832 m3/S with water level 4m below the DSL.On intake of the project, Pakistan has proposed to adopt a surface intake instead of submerged intake. Surface intake is more treaty compliant and preferable to prevent the coarse sediment ingress into the power tunnel, the official said.
In the discussions on the other two projects, Indian side agreed to reconsider Pakistan’s observations and to respond to those in the next meeting of the Commission.Pakistan’s prior objections related to pondage and freeboard of Lower Kalnai and freeboard and spillway of Pakal Dul Hydropower projects.The communiqué further said that Indian side also agreed to tour of inspection for Pakistan’s Indus Commission which is expected to be arranged before August 2017.During the first day of PIC meeting Pakistan side demanded the Indian commission allow visit to the sites of three controversial hydropower projects located in Occupied Kashmir, but the Indian side declined the demand, saying that the condition in the hydroelectric project area was not conducive for the visits, a source said. However, during second day of the talks they showed their readiness to arrange a visit after the snow melting.Pakistan side demanded India to provide the outflows from Baglihar and Salal dams (on Chenab river) during flood season to issue flood early warnings. Indian side agreed to consider Pakistan’s request and it is expected that India would start providing the required data starting from the coming flood season.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 22 Mar 2017 10:15

No Indian word to halt work on controversial water projects
https://www.dawn.com/news/1322106/no-in ... r-projects

ISLAMABAD: Two-day Pakis­tan-India Permanent Indus Commission (PIC) talks concluded here on Tuesday on a positive note as India withdrew the design of a smaller hydropower project and agreed to reconsider Pakistan’s observations on two others.There was, however, no commitment from the visiting side to halt construction work on the controversial projects, indicating India’s traditional time-gaining approach to project development.This was evident from the fact that a senior member of the Pakistani team confirmed that construction work on the Lower Kalnai project was in progress while that on the Pakul Dal project was yet to start. Both projects are on two different tributaries of the Chenab River.When asked by Dawn if India had given any assurance to stop constructions, the official requesting anonymity said he would not talk beyond an official statement.A former water and power secretary said it was a pattern from all the previous controversial projects like Baglihar and Kishanganga that New Delhi engaged Islamabad in technicalities and kept civil and side works moving for years until reaching a fait accompli stage when challenged in international forums.
A statement issued by the water and power ministry at the conclusion of the talks said India had withdrawn its design on the Miyar hydropower project after Pakistan raised objections to it at the commission’s previous meetings. It said the 113th meeting of the PIC held discussions on India’s proposed Miyar, Lower Kalnai and Pakal Dal hydropower projects as well as matters relating to exchange of data and conducting tours and meetings of the commission.
Insiders said Pakistan had already withdrawn its objections to freeboard of the 1000MW Pakal Dul project located on the Marusadar River — a right bank tributary of the Chenab. Pakistan has raised objections to its pondage, spillway and filling criteria.It is a storage-cum-power project and can have gross storage of about 108,000 acre feet of water. The project design envisaged its filling every monsoon season between mid-June and end-August.Pakistan is of the opinion that the tunnel spillway of Pakal Dul should be raised closer to the dead storage level because its placement 40 metres below the dead storage level could allow drawdown flushing not permitted to India under the 1960 waters treaty.
On the 48MW Lower Kalnai project, Pakistan has raised objections to its freeboard, pondage and intake. Islamabad is of the view that depth of bridge girder and provision of freeboard should be close to one metre and considers two-metre freeboard as ‘excessive’.Pakistan has also challenged the discharge series of river Lower Kalnai at Dunadi for winter months and estimated permissible pondage of 0.38 cubic megametres compared to Indian design pondage of 2.74 cubic megametres.The Lower Kalnai project is on a left bank tributary of Chenab and can have gross storage of about 1,508 acre feet of water.Pakistan has also raised objections to freeboard, pondage, spillway and intake of the 120MW Miyar hydroelectric project on the right bank Miyar tributary of Chenab. It is also a run-of-the-river project but the barrage type structure could have gross storage of about 1,298 acre feet of water.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Rishi Verma » 22 Mar 2017 10:44

India needs to link water to bakistan not just with terrorism but also with PoK and Gilit Bakistan

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Philip » 22 Mar 2017 13:33

Look at the US's shameless duplicity! It is rushing to help us resolve the water "dispute" which will allegedly affect Pak,but has done "F" all,or wants to do anything about resolving the dispute of Paki Terror waged against India for decades! Mr.Modi must tell the US sh&tworms to first resolve the issue of terrorism against us by perfidious Pak before we engage in talks about water.Why is the Delhi durbar ,our babudom,so keen to bow and scrape whenever the US farts at us?

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby chetak » 22 Mar 2017 16:23

The world bank was a facilitator and not a guarantor of the IWT. It's role is now defunct.


India denies Pak’s claim of talks on Indus in US


India denies Pak’s claim of talks on Indus in US
Mar 22, 2017,

NEW DELHI: India is unlikely to participate in any meeting in Washington DC with Pakistan on the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT) in April, as has been announced by the Pakistan government after a meeting of the Indus Commissioners in Islamabad on Tuesday. Sources also said India had not, as Pakistan claimed, agreed to halt the Miyar hydroelectric project in J&K.

The Pakistan water and power minister Khwaja Asif apparently jumped the gun when he announced at a press conference during the IWT meeting that the two countries would hold a "three-day 'way forward'" meeting on the Ratle and Kishenganga projects in April in Washington. According to Pakistan media reports, this proposed meeting would be mediated by the World Bank vice-president.

Indian sources said there was little possibility of a mediated meeting in the current context between India and Pakistan at this point. India is yet to receive any formal communication from the World Bank on any such meeting, said sources. As far as India is concerned, any disputes or differences would have to be discussed by the Indus Commission, not by a mediated meeting.

The Pakistan minister was quoted saying, "I am happy to reveal that talks on the Indus Waters Treaty have been resumed with the efforts of Government of Pakistan. Former US Secretary of State, John Kerry and the World Bank president played a pivotal role in bringing the two parties to the table."

Indian sources also denied a Pakistan media report claiming India had agreed to halt the progress on the Miyar hydroelectricity project's design after objections by Pakistan. "It is factually incorrect", sources said. Pakistan has raised objections over the designs of three projects, including Miyar hydroelectricity project, located in Himachal Pradesh's Lahaul Spiti district.

Last year the World Bank started two parallel processes - appointing a neutral expert as asked by India as well as a court of arbitration as asked by Pakistan. India had slammed the move, calling it "legally untenable." The World Bank had to abandon the twin track

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby arun » 22 Mar 2017 21:17

^^^ Like the above linked TOI article a Hindustan Times article also indicates that secretary level meeting in Washington is unlikely to happen as India believes that such a meeting is against the “Spirit of the Pact” ie: Indus Water Treaty.

HT article further reports “India believes that there is no need to look for another mechanism to break the deadlock since the treaty already had a dispute resolution system built in it”.

HT article then goes on to add that “India also believes the World Bank which brokered the pact in 1960 has lately been “biased” in following the treaty provisions. Sources indicated that India cannot be party to any meeting “which is against the provisions of the Indus waters treaty”, putting the Washington meet under a cloud. “

From HT here:

India, Pakistan head for showdown over Indus water; Delhi may skip US meet

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 22 Mar 2017 22:00


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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 22:46

The wonderful news is that a company from Biradher mulk Turkey is also helping build this project. This is probably the biggest project in J&K and will generate a whopping 1856 MW of electricity !

Incidentally there is a proposed railway station in Sawalkote on the Katra-Baramulla section of the Jammu-Srinagar railway line, which is currently under construction

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 23:02

Cabinet approved Sawalkot, Pakul Dul and Bursar projects in Sept 2014, which will together generate >3500 MW of electricity.
These should start construction one after the other in short order. All three are on the Chenab.

In addition Ratle, on river chenab, is under construction which will generate 850 MW.

Pakul Dul will connect to Dul Hasti (already constructed on the Chenab)

So one can easily anticipate that there will be a LOT, I mean a really really severe bit of rona dhona from Pakistan in the coming few months and years

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 23:11

These are the projects already constructed or under construction on the Chenab
J&K:
1. Salal - completed
2. Sawalkot
3. Baglihar - Completed
4. Ratle - Under construction
5. Dul Hasti - Completed
6. Pakul Dul
7. Bursar

Himachal Pradesh
8. Dugar
9. Sach Khas
10. Miyar - under construction
11. Tinget
12. Patam
13. Bardang
14. Rashil
15. Tandi
16. Jispa
17. Gondhla
18. Reoli Dugli
19. Teling
20. Seli
21. Khoksar
22. Chhatru

These are just the ones I have marked on Google earth and are the major projects. They might all get constructed in the next 2 decades
As one can see, there is a LOT of rona dhona by Pakistan in the upcoming future.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 22 Mar 2017 23:16

16. Jispa is also probably under construction or close to starting. There was a tribal protest due to them planning a tunnel. But this seems to have been resolved it seems.
19. Teling is actually going to be pretty close to where the Rohtang Tunnel will emerge in the Chenab valley

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby vasu raya » 22 Mar 2017 23:50

Gagan wrote:16. Jispa is also probably under construction or close to starting. There was a tribal protest due to them planning a tunnel. But this seems to have been resolved it seems.
19. Teling is actually going to be pretty close to where the Rohtang Tunnel will emerge in the Chenab valley


The Rohtang Tunnel could connect Chenab with Beas and have it operate as an aquaduct in the night when there is no traffic.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 23 Mar 2017 00:15

Rohtang tunnel height is too high right now.
It is well above the proposed dam height

Also if these many dam projects are going to be built on the Chenab in Himachal, flow can be diverted at so many different points. But a tunnel a little north-west in one of the gullies will be shorter

My dream project, which will probably never happen is a 100 Km tunnel from the Indus from where they plan the Dumkar Project to bring water to just north of Bursar on the Chenab tributary. It is nearly a 700 m drop from the indus to the Chenab, and could be a mega hydro-electric project by itself

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby vasu raya » 23 Mar 2017 00:51

Having the tunnel higher than the dam is a safety feature, one doesn't want tunnel flooding risk, water can be pumped normally using the electricity generated at the dam

tapping Indus you may want to look at this, the zanskar tribute is so close to chenab as chenab is closer to Beas start point

Image

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 23 Mar 2017 01:50

The height difference between the rivers is crazy. The Zanskar origin will be like 1000-1500 odd meters higher than the chenab, but the indus will be like 500-700 m below the zanskar.
Height differences have to be dealt with, can't just reverse flow in the rivers

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby vasu raya » 23 Mar 2017 02:03

Pumping (not a whole lot of height though, the dam height can be adjusted) is a preferred option since its a 'shared' tunnel between Chenab and Raavi, not Beas my bad, while a dedicated tunnel is preferred between the higher Zanksar and lower Chenab

Indus to Zanskar it would have to be a high dam somewhere over the Indus with the backwaters reaching Zanskar either directly or as a short tunnel

New projects are going to take time while cross border terrorism itself started way back.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby manjgu » 23 Mar 2017 08:18

been talking to someone in know of things...the gist of it is a) the paki spin on talks is nonsense..the talks are basically chai biskoot sessions..b) the so called objections are v trivial but blown out of proportion on paki media for domesitc paki consumption..c) the capability to screw paki on river water is coming up slowly but surely ..the pakis know it and we know it.. d) in few years down the line if we stay on course... Pakis are royally screwed. he said if we store even the water allocated to us as per IWT..pakis are screwed. and if we play a little more hanky panky..pakis are royally screwed. e) we need to make better utilisation of punjab river water and ensure not even a drop goes out to the pakis.. my 2 cents..the map presented above is v good..but what looks so close on the map might not be so easy on ground. Can someone confirm if we are allowed to link any one of the 3 eastern rivers with the western rivers?

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby manjgu » 23 Mar 2017 08:24

https://www.dawn.com/news/1322300/next- ... n-jeopardy ....the KishenGanga is a done deal..pakis are beating a dead horse.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby kit » 23 Mar 2017 08:42

Wonder how Pakistan will pay back China for all the bridges plants etc etc .. Quite probably they will do a "Pakistan " on China :mrgreen: .. those uzhgur militants will come in handy for them and a 6 lane highway to transport straight to China :rotfl: .. all India needs to is not to join CPEC in any way and keep economic pressure on them for at least a decade

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby sudeepj » 23 Mar 2017 09:43

https://thewire.in/117410/sawalkot-dam-india-pakistan/

Sawalkot is causing major heart burn. Brace for opeds against big bad India waging a water war against little misunderstood Pakistan.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 23 Mar 2017 15:24

manjgu wrote: ....the KishenGanga is a done deal..pakis are beating a dead horse.

Pakistan is trying to resurrect the Kishenganga issue through backdoor because, if we recall, Pakistan placed six objections before the CoA on that project, of which only two concerned the CoA:

  1. Admissibility of diversion of water into a tributary
  2. Drawdown flushing (DDF) technique to manage sedimentation by India

I think the remaining four were with respect to certain minor design issues or operations which the CoA asked the two parties to resolve between themselves. IMO, these were not worthy of a 'dispute' and hence the implication by the CoA was that, at best, the two PICs or the Secrtaries of the two Governments or at worst, an NE should resolve them. Pakistan has kept quiet on these since the CoA award.

It is these issues that Pakistan wants to raise now because India informed Pakistan, as per IWT requirements, in August last year that the works were over and filling up of the reservoir would start. That incensed the Pakistanis who also created some disturbance in the Gurez seector adjoining the KHEP area and probably also decided to escalate the matter. The disturbances led to the postponement of inauguration of the project. The initial filling up of the Dead Storage is as per agreement between the two PICs, but if no agreement is possible, India could unilaterally fill it up between June 20 & Aug 20 (in the case of Jhelum). The Pakistanis, constituted a parliamentary committee that recommended approaching the WB for a CoA. The idea is to delay the project as much as possible and Pakistan is encouraged in this by a temporary injunction by the previous CoA against India proceeding with any work for a brief period during the hearings. This, of course, was later vacated after inspections etc. But, Pakistan clutches to straws in the wind.

The second reason, IMHO, is that Pakistan is trying to behave in its usual sly manner. Last time around, it included the question of DDF, a technical issue that is best left to a Neutral Expert (in fact, an NE had already given his clear ruling in the Baglihar case), to the CoA where it fancies its chances better. Since it could not take it up directly, it camouflaged it under a larger rubric of diversion of water from Jhelum to a tributary etc. Over-ruling strong Indian objections to a CoA addressing this ‘difference’ which was technical in nature and which had already been addressed, all that the CoA could weakly offer as a rebuttal was that the CoA also had some technical expertise and that iy could take up anything that an NE could take up and beyond too!!

Since we do not know what are Pakistan's current set of objections vis-a-vis Kishenganga that needs the WB to constitute a CoA, we have to believe that it could be trying to play a similar trick by taking the remaining four issues (of which one, I think was agreed to between the two PICs and three still remain outstanding) massaged in a suitable way as a 'dispute' to a CoA. The hope here, by Pakistan, is that at best it could get a favourable judgement in one or two of these issues that could be a setback to the operationalization of KHEP by India as it grapples with re-design or at worst, delay power generation by a few years if an interim stay is awarded by the CoA.

The fact that India claimed that the issues were only 'differences' that needed only a NE confirms the suspicion that Pakistan is trying a sleight of hand approach.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby manjgu » 23 Mar 2017 16:14

Ssridhar..correct. a) I believe that KG has already started power generation though not to its full capacity. On the so called ' objections' ...the person i was talking to ..said there are at best cosmetic changes..done more to show that Paki Govt. is on the job...fighting for the cause. However, the main stuff has been done/ completed/sealed. b) Correct me if i am wrong.. i think u did mention that water from chenab CANT be transferred to the Beas or any other river of the easter river system as some members are alluding to.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 23 Mar 2017 16:18

manjgu wrote:b) Correct me if i am wrong.. i think u did mention that water from chenab CANT be transferred to the Beas or any other river of the easter river system as some members are alluding to.

No, I do not remember to have made any statement regarding Chenab. However, on the face of it, I do not think we can divert the waters of any western river to an eastern river. But, I am not aware of the context.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Bart S » 23 Mar 2017 16:58

It's high time that we change the playing field itself instead of playing this game and playing by the rules. We are doing everything by the book and seem to take satisfaction in defeating Pakistan's silly obstructions i.e we are playing the game and seem to be winning.

But as Christine Fair stated about the Paki Army, they don't care if they win, the fact that they are playing is in itself a victory in their minds. Pakis goal here is not necessarily to ensure that they have water (if it were they would have done better water management and not built just one dam since independence), but to harass India as much as possible.

So though it seems like we are easily swatting them away, it's still not a productive activity for us and it gives them recognition as a credible party to the disputes (something that we might have had to agree to in the 50s and 60s but not today) and we need to either re-write the rules or stop playing this game with them entirely.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Gagan » 23 Mar 2017 17:28

Exactly!
Pakistan does not want to really solve anything. To do that they will have to give up terrorism,, and the Pakistan Army will have to give up compulsive hatered of India.
That they are not prepared to do.
So the next best thing is to pretend that they are striving hard, and are confronting evil India.

They lose these cases on each and every occasion, the neutral experts and ICJ must be surprised at their stupidity.

When they lose, they can shift blame onto evil india, evil world, who are all conspiring against pakistan and the muslims. Not one person will go back to ordinary pakistanis and say that they never had a case in the first place, and India has been unduly benevolent in giving them something like the Indus Waters Treaty.
For future reference, never give a bunch of nimcompoops anything, they will mess it up and keep asking you for more.

Imagine this! Even after getting 86% of the water from the massive Indus river system, the Pakistanis are crying about being near drought! It just shows the shocking level of water mismanagement that they have done. Even if you give them the Indian ocean, these people will waste it away.

They are irredeemable, let them be. Do not get involved and become a tool in their internal politics, by sending our water teams to them. Any meeting with them causes their political juices to flow, and the lies to flow. The result is an uptick in terrorism in India.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 23 Mar 2017 17:51

Bart S wrote:It's high time that we change the playing field itself instead of playing this game and playing by the rules.

True. Instead of reacting to events, we have to lead. I think that is the conclusion that this government came to last year. We are going to see IWT being handled differently now, Insh'a Alla'h.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby vasu raya » 23 Mar 2017 20:23

Just a data point, they managed to complete a large diameter tunnel in J&K thats 11km long in about 4 years and they weren't using TBMs

Image

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/national/pm-to-inaugurate-indias-longest-road-tunnel-in-jk-on-april-2/article9595870.ece

They probably had two working heads, one from each direction, so a longer tunnel might need more working heads some starting on intermediate locations of the tunnel axis

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 24 Mar 2017 15:31

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

Pak-India showdown over Indus treaty likely

NEW DELHI: India and Pakistan are set for another showdown over the Indus waters treaty with New Delhi finding the World Bank’s proposal of a secretary level meeting in Washington next month against the ‘spirit of the pact’, reports foreign media.

Earlier this week, Water and Power Minister Kh Asif announced that the two countries would hold a “three-day ‘way forward’” meeting on the Ratle and Kishenganga projects in April in Washington. Sources say India believes that there is no need to look for another mechanism to break the deadlock since the treaty already had a dispute resolution system built in it.

India also believes the World Bank which brokered the pact in 1960 has lately been “biased” in following the treaty provisions. Sources indicated that India cannot be party to any meeting “which is against the provisions of the Indus waters treaty”, putting the Washington meet under a cloud.

These sources maintain that World Bank is playing the role of a ‘mediator’ whereas it should be a ‘facilitator’ between India and Pakistan to resolve the issues “in accordance with the provisions of the Indus Water Treaty”. The World Bank had suggested the meeting of water resources secretaries for three days in April.

Sources familiar with the developments told the foreign media that the World Bank proposal for the water resources secretaries meeting in Washington goes against the ‘spirit of the treaty’. New Delhi feels the World Bank continues to work against the spirit of the pact by initiating two separate dispute resolution mechanisms.

In the dispute of Kishenganga project, India wanted the neutral experts mechanism to solve the issue but Pakistan favoured arbitration. The World Bank had kicked in the two mechanisms at the same time, much to the anger of India last year.

Indian and Pakistani officials of the Indus water commission who met in Islamabad on March 21 and 22 could not make much progress on the issues. Indus water commissioner P.K. Saxena led the Indian delegation while the Pakistani side which was headed by Mirza Asif Saeed.

For the Indian side, the main issue now is resolving differences the over Kishenganga and Ratle hydro power projects. The two projects are being constructed on the Jhelum and Chenab rivers respectively. Pakistan while objecting to the design of the 330 MW Kishenganga project maintains it would result in a 40 percent reduction of water flowing into the country, which it says is against the provisions of IWT. India refutes that charge.

For the 850 MW Ratle power plant, Pakistan wants the planned storage capacity of the project reduced from 24 million cubic metres to eight million cubic metres. Pakistan also wants the height of the dams to be reduced.

Pakistan is set to raise issues related to three dams — 1000 MW Pakuldul on Chenab, 120 MW Miyar across Miyar Nalla which is a major tributary of the Chenab and the 43 MW Lower Kalnai hydro project — on Lower Kalnai Nalla, a tributary of the Chenab.

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chetak
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby chetak » 24 Mar 2017 18:36

desperate pakis pathetically eager to claim some "victory" to present to their phata abduls and phati ayeshas



#BREAKING: #Pakistan Water Commissioner Mirza Asif Baig says, India agreed to halt work of the Miyar hydroelectric project's design.

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vasu raya
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby vasu raya » 25 Mar 2017 01:48

Apologies if posted earlier, this project on Sutlej


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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 25 Mar 2017 15:37

Pakistan’s water diplomacy - DAWN
FOR no other known reason but to avoid being seen as violating the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT), India sent a 10-member delegation to Pakistan from March 20 to 21, for the 113th meeting of the Permanent Indus Waters Commission. India had practically declined these mandatory annual meetings since May 2015. It is a positive development, even if the result was predictably inconclusive.

India and Pakistan are pursuing two diametrically opposed approaches: India is implementing a long-term plan of constructing a chain of hydropower projects while occasionally sharing drawings and sometimes even agreeing to revise them. Pakistan has no plan. It has instead relegated negotiations to water engineers who can only raise technical objections. The policy is devoid of a long-term vision and needs a new, strategic push. Pakistan is apprehensive that the Indian infrastructure will diminish water quantities over time, whereas the real threat is that it will dissipate the Indus ecosystem as we know it.

Islamabad’s regional water strategy needs to be two-pronged: i) make some strategic moves to win friends for Pakistan’s case and ii) integrate external diplomacy with domestic water sector investments.

Presently, our water diplomacy is overly Indus Waters Treaty centric, and begs for an integrated view. While the IWT is a strategic asset that both India and Pakistan must strive to protect and constantly enrich {Why should strive to 'protect & enrich' IWT? What are its benefits?}
, for Pakistan it is a lifeline that drives livelihoods for the poor and lifestyles for the rich.

Pakistan gets about 127 million acre feet water under the treaty. But, as mentioned above, its water policy has become too IWT centric, often at the cost of other strategic assets: almost 70 per cent of water in our rivers flows from the glaciers; groundwater is the source of over 60pc of water used in our agriculture; and almost all of our rainwater, particularly during the monsoon, is neither harvested nor stored or productively used. Additionally, the Indus River system gets more than 15pc of its water from the Kabul River, but no agreement with Afghanistan exists to secure or regulate these flows. Our regional water diplomacy must concurrently respond to these challenges. Having a water policy that ignores non-IWT sources of water is perilous for Pakistan’s security and economy.

This country’s water diplomacy in the region must be based on four cardinal principles:

First, water for Pakistan is not only a bilateral matter with India — and Pakistan is not the only country with which India has unresolved water issues. In fact, India has unresolved water disputes with almost all its neighbours, from Bangladesh to China. India’s water neighbours can benefit from Pakistan’s experience. Pakistan should therefore elevate transboundary waters to bilateral discussions with all of India’s water neighbours — particularly Bangladesh and China, but also with increasingly more assertive Bhutan and Nepal. {This author is suggesting that Pakistan and other countries should gang-up against India. For this reason alone, we must make IWT useless and irrelevant asap.}


Pakistan’s regional diplomacy should seek to proactively respond to India’s efforts to keep a lid on water as a bilateral matter and deal with each neighbour separately. India’s water policy can use better consistency in dealing with her neighbours, and they in turn sure can learn from each other.

Second, transboundary water is not only about diplomatic negotiations, but also an issue of upstream investments for downstream economic needs. Pakis­tan has not made adequate investments to secure water for its future use. Upstream investments in Bhutan by India have resulted in three hydel power projects of 1,416MW, and three more of 2,129MW are under construction. Afghanistan-Pakistan geography and topography is ideally suited for benefit sharing from Kabul River. Pakistan needs to consider similar upstream investments in Afghanistan, where the construction of 13 smaller dams is under consideration. Pakistan can fully or partially fund the construction of one or two smaller dams in Afghanistan. In return, Pakistan can secure both energy and water to lift its tribal areas and parts of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa out of water and energy deficits. A clear proposition by Pakistan can help Islamabad forge common ground with Afghanistan and, ideally, with the World Bank. Prolonged inaction by Islamabad will inevitably result in a void that can be too tempting for extra regional actors.

Upstream water investments in Afghanistan are in Pakistan’s strategic interest: increased agricultural productivity and livelihood options can help curtail migration from Afghanistan to Pakistan for economic opportunities between Peshawar and Karachi. This can also lay the foundation for regional water markets. Much like the proposed South Asian energy corridors, the time for regional water markets is fast approaching.

Third, water for Pakistan is more than about precipitation during the monsoon. Climate change is creating a similar set of challenges for regional countries in the Himalayan-Hindu Kush regions, and from the Bay of Bengal to the Arabian Sea. It is posing serious threats to food security, increasing migration and extreme events, including floods, droughts and heatwaves. Cloudbursts in Jammu inundated Sialkot, much as Nowshera became a victim of flooding in the Kabul River. Transboundary flooding risks are attributable to climate change and are engulfing the entire South Asian region. Transboundary water management needs to be ramped up by Pakistan to a higher regional and international security plateau, and employed as an instrument to enhance regional trade and economic cooperation.

Fourth, for success in regional water diplomacy, Pakistan must invest in institutional infrastructure. How could a country that depends so much on transboundary water supplies not have a full-fledged water ministry and departments at the federal and provincial levels? How could Pakistan afford not to have national and provincial water policies? Or water pricing? In order to bury the ad-hocism of regional water diplomacy, a National Commission on Transboundary Waters needs to be established with a constitutional status comparable to the Election Commission, mandated to manage all transboundary water issues dealing with the Upper Indus Basin, Afghanistan and, of course India and the IWT’s Permanent Commission.

Finally, we are notorious for using water wastefully and have extremely poor drop-to-crop ratios. We need to make investments and upscale our infrastructure, augment storage capacities and improve our agricultural system efficiencies. Getting our due share under IWT is only half the game. The other half is how efficiently and judiciously we use the water we get from various sources.

The writer is CEO, LEAD Pakistan, a think tank focusing on climate and water issues.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 28 Mar 2017 18:32

Water scarcity feared to affect upcoming crop sowing

ISLAMABAD: The Indus River System Authority (Irsa) has projected 35% water shortage for irrigation purposes in the upcoming Kharif crop-sowing season.

The estimate was arrived at in a meeting of the technical committee of Irsa on Monday and final projection would be made in the huddle of Irsa’s advisory committee on March 31.

According to an official aware of the development, a Sindh representative talked about water supply in the Kharif season and suggested that Irsa should refrain from water storage at the time of shortage.

“Water should be made available first before storing it in dams for Kharif crops,” the representative said, adding water should also be released from reservoirs to meet the needs of sowing in the season.

Balochistan and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa are normally exempted from supply cuts during periods of shortage. Still, a Balochistan representative insisted that his province as well as Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa should not be forced to bear the impact if water scarcity emerged in the Kharif season.

However, Punjab and Sindh – two major regions that grow many vital and other crops – are expected to share the water scarcity in the upcoming sowing season, beginning April 1 where major crops like rice, maize (corn), moong, cotton and sugarcane are planted.

Though water shortage was earlier feared to be 40-50% at the beginning of the season, the Irsa’s technical committee noted that the shortage level would stand below 35% and that too would be gradually reduced.

According to deliberations of the committee, 108 to 113 million acre feet (MAF) of water will flow in rivers to meet irrigation requirements in the Kharif season.

Water loss on the Indus River will be 40% in early Kharif, which will be gradually curtailed to 20%. Chenab and Jhelum Rivers will face 10% water loss in the early season, but it will be brought down to zero later.

An Irsa official revealed that the water supply regulator had released 40,000 cusecs each for Punjab and Sindh to help them steer out of the shortage in a week. For Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, the regulator was releasing 3,000 cusecs.

The technical committee met to finalise recommendations for water distribution among provinces in the new sowing season. Irsa Director Operations Khalid Rana presided over the meeting where representatives of provinces, irrigation departments and the Water and Power Development Authority (Wapda) were present.

The recommendations will be tabled before the advisory committee at March end for a final decision on water sharing.

According to a report released by Wapda, water inflows in the Indus River at Tarbela were calculated at 22,300 cusecs and outflows at 20,000 cusecs, in Kabul River at Nowshera, inflows were 16,300 cusecs and outflows were also 16,300 cusecs, in Jhelum River at Mangla, inflows were 38,100 cusecs and outflows were 31,900 cusecs and in Chenab River at Marala, inflows were 14,900 cusecs and outflows were 6,500 cusecs.

At present, water level in Tarbela Dam stood at 1,384.85 feet and in Mangla Dam at 1,068.45 feet. Live storage was estimated at 0.055 maf and 0.175 maf respectively.

In Chashma, the water level was at 642.30 feet and its live storage was 0.186 maf.

Inflows and outflows on the Indus River at Tarbela and Chashma, Kabul River at Nowshera and Jhelum River at Mangla reflected the mean flows of 24 hours whereas other flows were gauged at 6am.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby manjgu » 28 Mar 2017 20:41

i cross both Sutlej ( nearPhillaur) and Beas ( near Beas town) regularly. The sutlej is practically dry at Ludhiana .. the Beas comparatively carries more water.. Sutlej has been effectively tamed... as also Beas.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby chetak » 28 Mar 2017 20:44

manjgu wrote:i cross both Sutlej ( nearPhillaur) and Beas ( near Beas town) regularly. The sutlej is practically dry at Ludhiana .. the Beas comparatively carries more water.. Sutlej has been effectively tamed... as also Beas.


is it a seasonal thing?? or because of us??

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby manjgu » 28 Mar 2017 22:26

both..but more of because of us.. I got an idea about this in jaisalmer. Jaisalmer is suffering from effects of excess water !!! as per a local citizen courtesy the canal which brings in water from Punjab..in addition to the numerous dams on the eastern rivers. the eastern rivers are practically dry as they enter Pakistan except probably in monsoon.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby chetak » 28 Mar 2017 22:54

manjgu wrote:both..but more of because of us.. I got an idea about this in jaisalmer. Jaisalmer is suffering from effects of excess water !!! as per a local citizen courtesy the canal which brings in water from Punjab..in addition to the numerous dams on the eastern rivers. the eastern rivers are practically dry as they enter Pakistan except probably in monsoon.


well played, indeed.


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