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Indus Water Treaty

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 16 May 2017 22:58

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

Modi's water war: India fast-tracks hydro projects in Kashmir

NEW DELHI: India has fast-tracked hydropower projects worth $15 billion in Indian Jammu and Kashmir in recent months, three federal and state officials said, ignoring warnings from Islamabad that power stations on rivers flowing into Pakistan will disrupt water supplies.

The swift approval of projects that had languished for years came after Prime Minister Narendra Modi suggested last year that sharing the waterways could be conditional on Pakistan clamping down on anti-India militants that New Delhi says it shelters.

Pakistan has opposed some of these projects before, saying they violate a World Bank-mediated treaty on the sharing of the Indus river and its tributaries upon which 80 percent of its irrigated agriculture depends.

The schemes, the largest of which is the 1,856 MW Sawalkote plant, will take years to complete, but their approval could prove a flashpoint between the nuclear-armed neighbors at a time when relations are at a low ebb.

"I say the way you look at these projects, it is not purely a hydro project. Broaden it to a strategic water management, border management problem, and then you put in money," said Pradeep Kumar Pujari, the top ranking official in the power ministry.

Pakistan's foreign ministry spokesman, Nafees Zakaria, said he would confer with the Ministry of Water and Power on the proposed Indian projects, saying it was a technical matter.

He noted, however, that India would be attending a regular meeting of the Indus Commission later this month in Lahore, even though the broader peace dialogue was on hold.

"It seems that finally India has realized the importance of this mechanism under the IWT (Indus Waters Treaty) for resolving water disputes related to the Indus water and its tributaries."

TRIPLE POWER

Six hydro projects in Indian Jammu and Kashmir either cleared viability tests or the more advanced environment and forest expert approvals in the last three months, two officials in India's Water Resources Ministry and the Central Electricity Authority said separately.

Together these projects on the Chenab river, a tributary of the Indus, would triple hydropower generation in IoK from the current level of 3,000 MW, the biggest jump in decades, added the officials, declining to be named because the approvals had not yet been made public.

"We have developed barely one-sixth of the hydropower capacity potential in the state in the last 50 years," the senior official at the Water Resources Ministry said.

"Then one fine morning, you see we cleared six to seven projects in three months; it definitely raises concern in Pakistan."

Pakistan's water supply is dwindling because of climate change, outdated farming techniques and an exploding population.

A 2011 report by the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations said New Delhi could use these projects as a way to control Pakistan's supplies from the Indus, seen as its jugular vein.

"The cumulative effect of these projects could give India the ability to store enough water to limit the supply to Pakistan at crucial moments in the growing season," it said.

India says the projects are "run-of-the-river" schemes that use the river's flow and elevation to generate electricity rather than large reservoirs, and do not contravene the treaty.

Environmental groups have questioned whether the government has followed proper procedures in fast-tracking projects located in a highly seismic area.

"BLOOD AND WATER"

Modi told a meeting of government officials on the Indus treaty last year that "blood and water cannot flow together", soon after India blamed militants allegedly based in Pakistan for a deadly attack on its troops in Uri.

Modi's message was two-fold, Indian foreign ministry spokesman Gopal Baglay said. Terrorism had to stop and India must fully utilize the economic potential available to it within the Indus treaty.

The projects that have won technical approvals in recent months are Sawalkote, Kwar, Pakal Dul, Bursar and Kirthai I and II.

Most of the projects have been held up for at least a decade awaiting multiple clearances. Sawalkote, which was cleared by a government-constituted environment committee in January, was first given techno-economic approval in 1991.

It is now up for forest clearance from the state authorities, after which the government will finalize financing and begin construction.

Some projects like Pakal Dul were stuck in litigation, but that has been resolved, Jammu and Kashmir's Power Minister Nirmal Singh told Reuters in the summer capital Srinagar. "Things are now in a position of take-off," he said.

In January, senior federal officials made a presentation on energy security to Modi in which they proposed interest subsidies and long-term loans for hydroprojects above 100 MW, according to the document seen by Reuters.

But Himanshu Thakkar, coordinator of South Asia Network on Dams, Rivers & People, said some projects had been cleared without impact assessment studies and public consultation.

"It's on one river, the Chenab, where you are doing so many projects. This is a very vulnerable region. It's landslide-prone, it's flash flood-prone, earthquake-prone."

Corrected as per SriJoy Ji suggestion» 16 May 2017 23:04
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Last edited by SSridhar on 17 May 2017 06:18, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title corrected

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Kashi » 17 May 2017 05:43

The title still says IoK. Peregrine Ji, please edit that too.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 20 May 2017 10:42


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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 22 May 2017 18:51

Indus cascade a Himalayan blunder - for Pakistan - Joydeep Gupta, Economic Times
The five dams forming the North Indus River Cascade that China has just promised to finance and build in Pakistan -- including Pakistan-administered Kashmir -- has the potential to generate over 22,000 MW in an energy-starved country. But the dams will also stop the flow of silt which is the lifeline of agriculture downstream. In non-monsoon months from October to June, they may also reduce the flow of water down the Indus to Pakistan's Punjab and Sindh provinces.

Climate change is making water flow along rivers more erratic. Pakistan's entire water supply for agriculture, factories and homes is dependent on rivers in the Indus basin. Water availability is already below the 1,000 cubic metres per person per year level at which a country is described as water-scarce, according to the global norm followed by most UN agencies.

In this situation, it is critical to look at the food, energy and water together, as a nexus. Instead, the planners of Pakistan appear to be looking at energy alone.

China is providing Pakistan with $50 billion for the Indus Cascade. An MoU was signed to this effect during the recent Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) conference in Beijing. China's National Energy Administration (NEA) will oversee the funding. China Three Gorges Corporation -- which runs the world's largest hydroelectricity project at the Three Gorges Dam -- is the frontrunner to build the five dams that will form the cascade.

This is in addition to the $57 billion China is providing to Pakistan for a series of infrastructure projects along the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a part of BRI. The infrastructure projects include the building of coal-fired power stations and the port at Gwadar on the Arabian Sea, at the end of the corridor.

The cascade is planned all the way down the Indus from Gilgit-Baltistan to the existing Tarbela dam near Islamabad. It will effectively turn this huge transboundary river into a series of lakes in the last part of its journey through the Hindu Kush Himalayas to the plains of South Asia.

The uppermost of the five dams is being planned at Bunji near Skardu in Pakistan-held Kashmir.

The 7,100 MW Bunji Hydropower Project has been described by Pakistan's Water and Power Development Authority (WAPDA) as a run-of-the-river (RoR) project. But the promotional video (for the entire cascade) which provides this description also says it will have a reservoir that will be spread along a 22-km stretch of the Indus and inundate a 12-km stretch of the road between Gilgit and Skardu -- the two main towns of Gilgit-Baltistan. So, despite the description, this may not be an RoR project.


The next dam in the cascade is the big one -- Diamer-Basha -- with a planned live storage of 6.4 million acre feet (MAF) of water and a hydropower generating potential of 4,500 MW. From Diamer-Basha, the projects run along the Karakoram Highway, which China built in the 1960s through Pakistan-administered Kashmir despite strenuous objections from India. The reservoir that will form behind the Diamer-Basha dam will submerge 104 km of the Karakoram Highway and displace about 30,000 people, according to WAPDA.

The Diamer-Basha dam is being promoted by WAPDA as a sediment trap and therefore good for downstream hydropower projects. But the same sediment -- mainly silt -- rejuvenates the soil downstream every year and has been the main reason why agriculture has been sustained in the Indus valley for millennia.


Building the Diamer-Basha dam is estimated to cost $15 billion. For years, Pakistan has been seeking the money from multilateral funding agencies, to no avail. Experts at the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank have advised Pakistani planners to think of smaller dams instead. Now China has promised funding.

Just downstream of Diamer-Basha is the third dam in the cascade -- the 4,320 MW Dasu Hydropower Project. This will have a reservoir that will stretch upstream for 74 km along the Indus, all the way to the Diamer-Basha dam, according to WAPDA. It will also submerge 52 km of the Karakoram Highway. Some of the peripheral work for this project has started, and people have already been displaced, with WAPDA seeking contracts for resettlement and providing free transport to resettlement sites.

And immediately downstream of that, WAPDA has planned the 2,200 MW Patan Hydropower Project, with a 35-km-long reservoir that goes up to the Dasu dam.

Once again, the fifth dam in the cascade is just a little downstream -- the 4,000 MW Thakot Hydropower Project in which the plan is to divert the Indus waters through four headrace tunnels to generate electricity.

By the time the Indus emerges from the tunnels, it will be close to the existing dam at Tarbela
, which has been in operation since 1976.

The electricity that will potentially be generated by the five new projects forming the Indus Cascade adds up to a little over 22,000 MW.

In 2015, China Three Gorges Corporation had said it wanted to be part of a financing consortium with a $50 billion fund to build hydroelectric power projects in Pakistan.

The corporation may be the frontrunner to build the dams, but it is not the only competitor. After the MoU was signed in Beijing, several Chinese power sector companies showed willingness to join the project. This will be the first large-scale private sector hydroelectricity project in Pakistan.

At the MoU signing ceremony, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif spoke glowingly of cooperation between the two governments to overcome Pakistan's energy crisis and added: "Water and food security are of paramount importance for Pakistan keeping in view the challenges posed by climate change."

However, the Indus Cascade will actually reduce water and food security in Pakistan.

One proven effect of climate change is an intensification of the water cycle. In lay terms, it means fewer rainy or snowy days but more intense rainfall or snowfall in those days. Pakistan is already suffering the effects.

For the first nine years in this century, the Indus failed to reach the sea. Then there was such a cloudburst in 2010 that a fifth of the country was flooded. The floods also brought down, and continue to bring down, huge sediment loads that reduce the working lives of dams.

To build more large dams in this situation appears dangerously short-sighted.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 22 May 2017 21:00

SSridhar wrote:Indus cascade a Himalayan blunder - for Pakistan - Joydeep Gupta, Economic Times
China is providing Pakistan with $50 billion for the Indus Cascade. An MoU was signed to this effect during the recent Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) conference in Beijing. China's National Energy Administration (NEA) will oversee the funding. China Three Gorges Corporation -- which runs the world's largest hydroelectricity project at the Three Gorges Dam -- is the frontrunner to build the five dams that will form the cascade.
This is in addition to the $57 billion China is providing to Pakistan for a series of infrastructure projects along the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a part of BRI. The infrastructure projects include the building of coal-fired power stations and the port at Gwadar on the Arabian Sea, at the end of the corridor.
SSridhar Ji :
I draw your attention to the following :

1. Railways needs $35 billion for complete uplift, says minister

LAHORE: Cash-strapped Pakistan Railways is likely to continue facing financial woes even after CPEC pours investments and upgrades to the tune of $10 billion to its infrastructure.
Rafique said that Railways needs $30 to $35 billion – approximately 10% of Pakistan’s economy – to upgrade its entire ecosystem and bring it at par with railway networks of developed countries.

2. Upgrading the rail sector
Pakistan and China signed two agreements on upgrading the ML-1 rail line running between Karachi and Peshawar and establishing a dry port at Havelian during the Belt and Road forum in Beijing. This is an important step taken by the two sides under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.
So with US$ 57 Billion for CPEC + US$ 50 Billion for the Indus Cascade and say another US$ 25 Billion for the Railways, a total Debt of around US$ 135 Billion or so it will be curtains for Clapistan and it will be "HELLO CLAPJIANG". Are the Clapistani Leaders out of their "Cotton Pickin' Minds"? Clapistan will never be able to "Repay" such a Debt. :shock:
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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 22 May 2017 21:24

Peregrine ji, so, it is already (all in USD Billions) 62 + 50 + 27 (I am assuming that the USD 8B for Railways is already committed by China). The Chinese, I am afraid, have met their match and are entering a bottomless pit.

At this rate, CPEC alone will be another OBOR !

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Bheeshma » 22 May 2017 22:50

It will entertaining to see the fall out when pakis cannot repay and resort to their pakiness.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 14 Jun 2017 01:00

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

Pakistan eyes 2018 start for China-funded Diamer-Bhasha dam

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan expects China to fund a long-delayed Indus river mega dam project in Gilgit-Baltistan with work beginning next year, Federal Minister for Planning and Development Ahsan Iqbal said in an interview with Reuters.

Pakistan has been keen for years to build a cascade of mega dams along the Indus flowing down from the Himalayas, but has struggled to raise money from international institutions amid opposition from its nuclear-armed neighbour India.

Those ambitions have been revived by China’s Belt and Road infrastructure plans for Pakistan, a key cog in Beijing’s creation of a modern-day Silk Road network of trade routes connecting Asia with Europe and Africa.

The $12-$14 billion Diamer-Bhasha dam should generate 4,500MW of electricity, and a vast new reservoir would regulate the flow of water to farmland that is vulnerable to increasingly erratic weather patterns.

Iqbal, the Islamabad lead on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), said a Chinese company from a Beijing-picked shortlist and a local partner would build the dam over a 10-year period, and work should begin in the next financial year, which begins in July.

“This water reservoir is most critical for food security in Pakistan, so is a very high priority project for Pakistan,” Iqbal told Reuters in an interview late on Monday at his ministerial home in Islamabad.

China and Pakistan signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) in December for Beijing to help fund and develop Pakistan’s Indus Basin dams, though no timelines have been released. Pakistan estimates there is 40,000MW of hydro potential.

The Diamer-Bhasha dam and reservoir would displace more than 4,200 families in nearby areas and submerge a large section of the Karakoram Highway to China, Pakistan’s Water and Power Development Authority estimates.

The federal minister also said Pakistani and Chinese engineers were also surveying other projects, including the 7,100MW Bunji hydro power project that would be the first in the cascade that stretches down to the Tarbela Dam near Islamabad.

India’s foreign ministry and ministry for water resources did not respond to requests for comment.

India this year fast-tracked $15 billion worth of dam projects in occupied Kashmir, despite fears from Islamabad that the power stations will disrupt vital Indus water flows into Pakistan.

Iqbal, a close ally of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, said India needed to “stop its myopic thinking towards CPEC” and accept the Chinese-funded project is going ahead. “Better still would be for India to become part of Beijing’s Belt and Road plans,” he said. Begging Bowl - Kaskol Again!

‘$20 billion plus’

Future CPEC plans are increasingly focusing on how Beijing can help build up Pakistan’s ailing industries, creating special economic zones and opening up sectors from mining to agriculture to Chinese firms.

But Iqbal said infrastructure construction would not stop, with contracts set to be signed for roads and for mass rail transport systems in Quetta, Peshawar and Karachi.

He said about $10 billion in new deals should be signed in the next year on top of Chinese pledges topping $50 billion, and that was likely to double by 2020.

“I would say conservatively $20 billion plus [in new investment by 2020],” Iqbal said, adding that this would also include private investment.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 20 Jun 2017 14:53

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

China to build dam in Pakistan that World Bank, ADB refuse to fund

NEW DELHI: Pakistan claimed on Monday that China has offered to make a dam project on the Indus River that India objects to, a part of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) , said the state-run Radio Pakistan.

The information about the project, the Diamer-Bhasha Dam, was conveyed by Pakistan's state-run power utility to a committee of the country's National Assembly on Monday. Earlier this month, Pakistan's planning minister Ahsan Iqbal told Reuters in an interview that "Pakistan expects China to fund" the project.

The Diamer-Bhasha Dam is a project that both the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank (ADB) have refused to touch because India objects to its location, which is in the Gilgit-Baltistan region. India claims the region is a part of Kashmir. A little over a year ago, the US was making noises about supporting the project and India didn't shy away from showing it was peeved.

Muzamil Hussain, the chairman of the state-run power utility said that currently no mega hydro-power projects are included in CPEC, which is why both Pakistan and China are seriously considering making the Diamer-Bhasha a part of it.

Two years ago, the World Bank refused to come on board as a lender for the dam project, because Pakistan didn't want to seek a no-objection certificate from India for the project. And last November, the ADB too declined to fund what's said to be a $14 billion project.

Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif last December approved "in principle" the financing plan+ for the 4500 megawatt Diamer-Bhasha dam. He told his Water and Power secretary to begin preparations to start work on the dam before the end of next year.

The Daimr-Bhasha Dam was first announced in 2006 and the foundation stone for it was laid in 2011.

Pakistan envisages the dam project will generate 4,500 megawatts of electricity, Reuters reported earlier this month. A vast new reservoir is also expect to regulate the flow of water to farmland that is vulnerable to increasingly erratic weather patterns, the news agency added.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby sarang » 20 Jun 2017 15:13

What will happen to these type of installations when the occupation finishes before debt instalments?
I mean the financial part only?

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 20 Jun 2017 16:16

sarang wrote:What will happen to these type of installations when the occupation finishes before debt instalments?
I mean the financial part only?
sarang Ji :

The Terms, Conditions, Exclusion, Penalties etc. etc. for the CPEC Project are unknown to the Cwapistanis. The following sums up the situation :

Stick a pony in me pocket
I'll fetch the suitcase from the van
'Cos if you want the best ones
But you don't ask questions
Then brother, I'm your man

Cause where it all comes from is a mystery,
It's like the changing of the seasons
And the tides of the sea
But here's the one that's driving me berserk:
Why do only Cwapistanis and donkeys work?

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 20 Jun 2017 17:56

sarang wrote:What will happen to these type of installations when the occupation finishes before debt instalments?
I mean the financial part only?

IMHO, the Chinese are aware that the funds being given to Pakistan are not going to be returned. They recognize that they may get some peanuts in return, if at all. But, they consider that their investment (USD 62B for CPEC + USD 50B for Northern Cascades) is fair price for the real estate of that artificial construct called Pakistan because it has multiple strategic benefits for China. This is pittance from that strategic PoV. That's all. For the Pakistani Generals and politicians, this is another opportunity to get their 'cut' in all projects and if in addition, if the Chinese can provide security cover for their terrorism against India, what more can they ask for? They are therefore willing to pawn their whole country.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Jun 2017 18:41

1. India should threaten them to walk out of IWT if pakistan/china go ahead with this. Even if we can't do much now, even a symbolic protest and actions like water trains will give enough shalwar browning
2. china is taking imperialism to altogether different level. In the end pakistan will be governed (on the face ) by paki generals who will take orders from beijing. As long as pakjabi interests are taken care of situation will not be very different from what it is today. To darn with balochs, pathans, sindhis, kashmiris and pashtuns. This is what presents us an opportunity, with their so called 'martial history', and mard-e-momin lineage it will be on a scale far bigger than '71. May be this is our dharmic way of making ChiPak pay for their sins.
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 20 Jun 2017 18:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 20 Jun 2017 18:46

ArjunPandit wrote:china is taking imperialism to altogether different level.

You are absolutely right. Chinese emperors always demanded a 'tribute' and got it too over the centuries. The traditionalists that the CPC are in most matters, in spite of Mao's Cultural Revolution, it follows the practice of its emperors. We will not discuss this here anymore; may be in the Chinese thread.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 23 Jun 2017 03:40


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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Falijee » 11 Jul 2017 01:57

Flooding In Pakistan Blamed On India !

IWT violation: India not sharing flood information with Pakistan since 1999
The Express Tribune > Pakistan

ISLAMABAD:
There may be multiple reasons for floods in the country, but Pakistan’s archrival India has also played a major role in aggravating Pakistan’s problems.
Official sources say New Delhi – despite being bound by the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT) – has not shared with Islamabad details about water outflow from its rivers since 1999, causing major floods in Pakistan. During all these years, Pakistan has repeatedly requested India for provision of information with regard to rains and floods but India has been reluctant to share timely information. Another one of those "baseless allegations" for which Pakistan is famous the world over !
Due to the absence of this vital information, Pakistan is unable to get accurate and timely preparation for the monsoon and remains at risk of heavy flooding. In last 15 years, Pakistan has to endure at least five major floods that have caused huge human and financial losses. "Gamechanger CPEC" tasked to "solve this problem" :mrgreen:
According to a senior government official, Pakistan has raised this issue several times at various international conferences and meetings, but the Indian government has turned a dead ear.“Earlier there was some possibility of convincing India but as the tension between the two countries is mounting it seems very difficult to get the required information from the hostile neighbour,” he told this correspondent. In a high-level meeting held recently, Chairman National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) Lt Gen Omar Mehmood Hayat also urged ‘upper riparian neighbour’ India to cooperate by giving timely information on water outflow from its rivers and actual rainfall recorded as stipulated in the IWT.
Applaud Modi-ji and his Govt for adopting a "comprehensive policy" as to how to deal with "rouge entity" :twisted:

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 11 Jul 2017 04:15

A.Noorani, of the school of thought that says India is not 100% wrong, but it is far more wrong than the other party, be it China or Pakistan, sometimes even the US or UK! - has written in a recent issue of Frontline that it is barbaric to even think of reducing water to Pakistan. But of course, it's not barbaric for Pakistan to send terrorists into India to kill Indian civilians and soldiers. Condemn/ridicule/find fault with the strong Indian response, don't condemn the initial aggression by the other side, is Noorani's premise.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Jul 2017 04:21

wait a second, if they dont know the outflow data, then how do they determine the 80% they are supposed to get...I wish we screw them that ways...

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Falijee » 12 Jul 2017 17:22

X Posted from Paki Thread

Ex- Fauji Chairman Of WAPDA Says That Pakistan Wastes 90% Of It's Water :eek:

Pakistan wastes water worth Rs25bn annually: Wapda Chairman.

Water and Power Development Authority (Wapda) Chairman retired Lt Gen Muzamil Hussain during a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee on Wednesday revealed that Pakistan wastes water worth Rs25 billion every year. Hussain, while briefing the committee, said that although Pakistan receives 145 million acre feet of water (100%) every year. However, only 14m acre feet of water ( 10% ) is preserved. So, by saying this, he also debunks Hafiz Suar's oft repeated claims that India is "stealing" Paki water. !
The chairman said that due to soil gathering at the base of Tarbela Dam, the storage capacity of the dam has decreased by 36 per cent. Therefore, constructing the Diamer-Bhasha dam is necessary, he added. Tarbela, one of the world’s largest earth-filled dams, was completed in 1978 with the World Bank’s assistance under the Indus Water Treaty signed by Pakistan and India. Pakistanis have never been known to maintain their national assets be it Tarbela Dam, National Highways or even Trucks ( Bahawalpur Accident !)
Hussain regretted that only two dams had been built in the country over the past 70 years. :oops: But "Bum For Islam" was given a "priority" !
An independent Chinese consultant ( last resort due to lack of funds :roll: ) hired by Wapda to conduct a feasibility study on desilting of the Tarbela dam claimed that desiltation of the dam is not a viable option either economically or technically, and may damage the country’s largest power house and reservoir, a senior government official shared with Dawn in an earlier report.
The Wapda chairman in today's briefing informed the committee that the cost of the Neelum-Jhelum power project was Rs4bn in the beginning. Now the project's costs have increased to Rs500bn, he said.
The percentage increase is astounding :shock:
Both Awami Muslim League head Sheikh Rashid took issue with work on the Neelum-Jhelum power project. Rashid said Rs41bn had been paid against "the world's only project initiated without conducting a geological survey", as it stood at the fault line for an earthquake. The area where the project is situated was struck by an earthquake in 2005, a year after work began on it, he said.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 14 Jul 2017 05:09

Experts warn India may be able to use water as weapon of war against Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: As India continues to build dams and hydropower projects in pursuit of acquiring capability to manipulate the flow of water, experts have warned that New Delhi may be able to use water as a weapon of war against Pakistan.

They expressed these concerns at a seminar on “Water Security and Emerging Threats in Pakistan” organised by the Centre for Global and Strategic Studies (CGSS) on Thursday.

The seminar brought together water experts, climatologists, specialists, government representative, students from across the country and individuals from public and private entities.

In his opening remarks at the event, Chairman CGSS Lt-Gen (retd) Muhammad Zahirul Islam said, “Water was once our biggest asset – the blood to the agricultural backbone of our economy – [but] now it is our biggest threats.”

He added, “Our dams remain empty, and there is less and less clean water to drink each year” and “this shows the amount of mismanagement and ignorance we show to this vital commodity”.

The CGSS chairman called India the biggest threat to Pakistan’s water security.

Former WAPDA chairman Shamsul Mulk presented a paper on “Political, Economic and Social Issues faced by Pakistan in Securing Water Resources”, and highlighted the importance of water resources management.

Describing proper management as mandatory, he spoke about the loopholes in the bureaucracy, hampering the implementation of various projects, and stressed the need for reforms.

Chairman Gomal Damaan Area Water Partnership Brigadier (retd) Muhammad Aslam delivered a speech on “Realistic Appraisal of Indus water Treaty”.

He said that India’s Kishanganga Hydel Project could interfere with Neelum-Jhelum Power Plant. “India, an upper riparian, is not doing responsible watershed management,” he stressed.

Vice President CGSS Babur Suhail spoke about “Growing Indian Threats to Cut Water Supply: Analysis of IWT”.

He shed light on the IWT (Indus Water Treaty), its implications for Pakistan and India as well as water terrorism and threatening statements by India to turn Pakistan into a water-scarce country.

He stated that right after the independence, there was friction on water sharing between Pakistan and India. He said the IWT is based on ‘division’ instead of ‘sharing’.

Chairman, Pakistan Council of Research in Water Resources (PCRWR) Muhammad Ashraf presented his views on water management loopholes and elaborated the essence of water for human life.

He also discussed the impact of mismanagement of water resources and its repercussions on the economy.

Further highlighting the impacts of mismanagement of water, he briefed that ground water depletion is a major cause of loss of water in Pakistan. Notably, he also gave certain precautions and offered recommendations for effective water storage in Pakistan.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 27 Jul 2017 18:10

Pakistan-India water talks next week - DAWN
Pakistan and India seem all set to finally hold the much-delayed water talks in the US capital next week {I doubt this news item}, hoping to avoid further tensions over an issue that has far-reaching consequences for both.

Official sources told Dawn that Minister for Water and Power Khawaja Mohammad Asif is likely to lead the Pakistani delegation at these talks that would be held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington. The delegation will include Secretary Water and Power Yousaf Naseem Khokhar and several other senior officials.

Secretary Ministry of Water Resources Dr Amarjit Singh is likely to lead the Indian delegation.

The last round of the World Bank-supervised talks was held in November 2016, and the World Bank had indicated that it intended to hold another round in April this year but could not do so, as India refused to accept the third-party arbitration. {So, what has changed between April & July for India to change its mind?}

Pakistan not only wanted the talks to be held as scheduled but also sought the World Bank’s arbitration as the guarantor of the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT). But India rejected arbitration, saying it preferred negotiations within the framework of the treaty.

Pakistan too recognises the treaty’s pivotal role but disagrees with the Indian interpretation, which seeks to minimise arbitration.

The talks will focus on two controversial hydropower projects — Kishanganga and Ratle — over which Pakistan sought International Court of Arbitration through the World Bank.

Pakistan believes India has been using delaying tactics to complete the controversial hydel projects it is building on western rivers in held Kashmir.

“We are ready to hold talks with India under World Bank and the US guidance. But we will not withdraw our case against Ratle and Kishanganga projects,” a Pakistani official said, adding that India had also refused earlier to respond to Pakistan’s call for inspection of Pakul Dal and other dams it’s constructing in the occupied area.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby schinnas » 27 Jul 2017 18:13

I hope India does not agree to talks on Indus Water treaty unless Jadhav is returned and Saeed, Dawood and other terrorist leaders are handed over to India.

It is for Pakistan to choose between terrorism and water.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby schinnas » 27 Jul 2017 18:14

I hope India does not agree to talks on Indus Water treaty unless Jadhav is returned and Saeed, Dawood and other terrorist leaders are handed over to India.

It is for Pakistan to choose between terrorism and water.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby chetak » 27 Jul 2017 18:23

schinnas wrote:I hope India does not agree to talks on Indus Water treaty unless Jadhav is returned and Saeed, Dawood and other terrorist leaders are handed over to India.

It is for Pakistan to choose between terrorism and water.


We are ready to hold talks with India under World Bank and the US guidance


why under such conditions?? The job of the WB and the US was over once we got gypped of our legitimate share of the waters and same was legally signed away by our fearless leader JLN.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby arun » 02 Aug 2017 11:52

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan-India water talks next week - DAWN
Pakistan and India seem all set to finally hold the much-delayed water talks in the US capital next week {I doubt this news item}, hoping to avoid further tensions over an issue that has far-reaching consequences for both.

Official sources told Dawn that Minister for Water and Power Khawaja Mohammad Asif is likely to lead the Pakistani delegation at these talks that would be held at the World Bank headquarters in Washington. The delegation will include Secretary Water and Power Yousaf Naseem Khokhar and several other senior officials.

Secretary Ministry of Water Resources Dr Amarjit Singh is likely to lead the Indian delegation.

The last round of the World Bank-supervised talks was held in November 2016, and the World Bank had indicated that it intended to hold another round in April this year but could not do so, as India refused to accept the third-party arbitration. {So, what has changed between April & July for India to change its mind?}

Pakistan not only wanted the talks to be held as scheduled but also sought the World Bank’s arbitration as the guarantor of the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT). But India rejected arbitration, saying it preferred negotiations within the framework of the treaty.

Pakistan too recognises the treaty’s pivotal role but disagrees with the Indian interpretation, which seeks to minimise arbitration.

The talks will focus on two controversial hydropower projects — Kishanganga and Ratle — over which Pakistan sought International Court of Arbitration through the World Bank.

Pakistan believes India has been using delaying tactics to complete the controversial hydel projects it is building on western rivers in held Kashmir.

“We are ready to hold talks with India under World Bank and the US guidance. But we will not withdraw our case against Ratle and Kishanganga projects,” a Pakistani official said, adding that India had also refused earlier to respond to Pakistan’s call for inspection of Pakul Dal and other dams it’s constructing in the occupied area.


India-Pakistan Indus Waters Treaty talks were held in the spirit of cooperation: World Bank :

First Post

Direct from the World Bank, two links, both dated August 1st, on the above affair.

Fact Sheet: the Indus Waters Treaty 1960 and the World Bank:

BRIEF
Fact Sheet: the Indus Waters Treaty 1960 and the World Bank
August 1, 2017

Origins of the Treaty:

The Indus Waters Treaty was signed in 1960 after nine years of negotiations between India and Pakistan with the help of the World Bank, which is also a signatory. The negotiations were the initiative of former World Bank President Eugene Black. Seen as one of the most successful international treaties, it has survived frequent tensions, including conflict, and has provided a framework for irrigation and hydropower development for more than half a century. Former U.S. President Dwight Eisenhower described it as "one bright spot ... in a very depressing world picture that we see so often."

How the Treaty works:

The Treaty sets out a mechanism for cooperation and information exchange between the two countries regarding their use of the rivers, known as the Permanent Indus Commission, which has a commissioner from each country. The Treaty also sets forth distinct procedures to handle issues which may arise: “questions” are handled by the Commission; “differences” are to be resolved by a Neutral Expert; and “disputes” are to be referred to a seven-member arbitral tribunal called the “Court of Arbitration.” The World Bank’s role in relation to “differences” and “disputes” is limited to the designation of people to fulfill certain roles when requested by either or both of the parties.

What the disagreement is about:

India and Pakistan disagree about the construction of the Kishenganga (330 megawatts) and Ratle (850 megawatts) hydroelectric power plants being built by India (the World Bank is not financing either project). The two countries disagree over whether the technical design features of the two hydroelectric plants contravene the Treaty. The plants are on respectively a tributary of the Jhelum and the Chenab Rivers. The Treaty designates these two rivers as well as the Indus as the “Western Rivers” to which Pakistan has unrestricted use. Among other uses, India is permitted to construct hydroelectric power facilities on these rivers subject to constraints specified in Annexures to the Treaty.

Different Treaty mechanisms have been sought by India and Pakistan:

Pakistan asked the World Bank to facilitate the setting up of a Court of Arbitration to look into its concerns about the designs of the two hydroelectric power projects. India asked for the appointment of a Neutral Expert for the same purpose. These requests came after the Permanent Indus Commission had been engaged in discussions on the matter for a while. During several months prior to December 12, 2016, the World Bank sought to fulfil its procedural obligations with respect to both the Court of Arbitration and the Neutral Expert. The Treaty does not empower the World Bank to choose whether one procedure should take precedence over the other; rather it vests the determination of jurisdictional competence on each of the two mechanisms. At the same time, the World Bank actively encouraged both countries to reach agree amicably on a mechanism to address the issues.

Pausing Treaty processes and working with India and Pakistan:

On December 12, 2016, World Bank Group President Jim Yong Kim announced that the World Bank would pause before taking further steps in each of the two processes requested by the parties. This was done to safeguard the treaty, since referring the matter simultaneously to the processes sought by each of the countries risked contradictory outcomes and worked against the spirit of goodwill and friendship that underpins the Treaty.

Since December 2016, the World Bank has worked towards an amicable resolution of the matter and to safeguard the Treaty. President Kim spoke several times with the finance ministers of both countries. The World Bank Chief Executive Officer Kristalina Georgieva traveled to both countries for high-level meetings. The World Bank Vice President for the South Asia Region, Annette Dixon, visited both countries twice. Kim’s adviser, Ian Solomon, made multiple visits to the region. Locally-based World Bank teams have convened dozens of meetings with different stakeholders. A variety of proposals have been discussed with both countries on how to resolve the disagreement and the World Bank believes that many of these ideas, or similar ones, would be worth pursuing and merit continued consideration.

Last Updated: Aug 01, 2017


The second one:

World Bank Statement on the Indus Waters Treaty Meetings:

WASHINGTON, August 1, 2017 -- The Secretary-level discussions between India and Pakistan on the technical issues on the Indus Waters Treaty took place this week in a spirit of goodwill and cooperation. The parties have agreed to continue discussions and reconvene in September in Washington, D.C.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 02 Aug 2017 15:21

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

India permitted to construct Kishanganga, Ratle projects: World Bank

WASHINGTON: India is allowed to construct hydroelectric power facilities on tributaries of the Jhelum and Chenab rivers with certain restrictions under the 1960 Indus Waters Treaty (IWT), the World Bank has said.

The World Bank's comments came as officials from India Pakistan concluded the secretary-level talks over the IWT.
Pakistan opposes the construction of the Kishanganga (330 megawatts) and Ratle (850 megawatts) hydroelectric power plants being built by India in Jammu and Kashmir, the global lender said in a fact sheet issued yesterday.

Noting that the two countries disagree over whether the technical design features of the two hydroelectric plants contravene the treaty, the World Bank said the IWT designates these two rivers as well as the Indus as the "Western Rivers" to which Pakistan has unrestricted use.

"Among other uses, India is permitted to construct hydroelectric power facilities on these rivers subject to constraints specified in annexures to the treaty," the Bank said in its fact sheet.

It noted that the talks on the technical issues of the IWT took place this week "in a spirit of goodwill and cooperation".
The parties have agreed to continue discussions and reconvene in September in Washington DC, it said in a separate statement.

In the lengthy fact sheet, the World Bank said Pakistan asked it to facilitate the setting up of a Court of Arbitration to look into its concerns about the designs of the two hydroelectric power projects.

On the other hand, India had asked for the appointment of a neutral expert to look into the issues, contending the concerns Pakistan raised were "technical" ones.

The IWT was signed in 1960 after nine years of negotiations between India and Pakistan with the help of the World Bank, which is also a signatory.

The World Bank's role in relation to "differences" and "disputes" is limited to the designation of people to fulfil certain roles when requested by either or both of the parties, the fact sheet said.

Earlier, in a letter dated July 25, the World Bank had assured Indian Ambassador to the US Navtej Sarna its "continued neutrality and impartiality in helping the parties to find and amicable way forward."

The two countries last held talks over the two projects in March this year during the meeting of the Permanent Indus Commission (PIC) in Pakistan.

Pakistan had approached the World Bank last year, raising concerns over the designs of two hydroelectricity projects located in Jammu and Kashmir.

It had demanded that the World Bank, which is the mediator between the two countries under the 57-year-old water distribution pact, set up a court of arbitration to look into its concerns.

The international lender had in November 2016 initiated two simultaneous processes for appointing neutral expert and establishing of a court of arbitration to look into technical differences between the two countries in connection with the projects.

The simultaneous processes, however, were halted after India objected to it.

After that, representatives of the World Bank held talks with India and Pakistan to find a way out separately.

The talks between the two nations over the treaty come amid tensions between them after a number of terror attacks in India by Pakistan-based terror groups.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby schinnas » 02 Aug 2017 15:34

X-Posted from STFUPaki thread.

..........

There is a golden opportunity for India to maximize exploitation of western rivers allotted to Pakistan that is not discussed in any source or forum I have seen so far.

<background>
Regarding Indus Water Treaty, the very high level summarization without nuances and details is that few rivers are marked for exclusive Indian use and few rivers (western rivers including Indus itself) are marked for unrestricted use by Pakistan but India can construct run off the mill projects for hydro electricity and stuff, but not canals, etc., which divert the water. Pakistan gets a larger share of water allocation partly due to internationally agreed upon (but not always enforced) Riparian rights as it the largest Riparian state, and partly due to India's generosity / carelessness in a treaty executed during times of water surplus and floods in Indus.

Until now, India does not even fully consume water allotted to it. Neither has it fully exploited the hydro electric potential of wester rivers alloted to Pakistan. Currently GoI is rightly focused on accelerating projects that would enable India to fully utilize her share of water and secondly to expedite hydro electric projects that help maximize gains from water flowing to Pakistan. These hydro electric projects with large storage capacity also gives India a trump card during war times to with-hold water or release water without advance notice that has potential to create flood like situations for Pakistan. Pakistan knows this and hence their panic.
</end background>

Now, the question I want to explore and seek educated inputs is without violating the letter of the treaty, what else can India do to maximize utilization of the so-called western rivers allotted to Pakistan in the IWT? Allow me a small digression here...

<OT>
Over the past few years Art of Living Foundation of Sri Sri Ravishankar ji has been working silently to rejuvenate as many as 20+ minor rivers and tributeries primarily in Maharashtra followed by Karnataka. MH government and Fadnavis have smartly leveraged this in their draught hit areas. KN's congress ruled government isnt making use of the services offered by AOL volunteers to the level MH is due to perceived political reasons or just inefficiency.

The process is very simple and involve boosting the underlying water ecosystem. The are in no-particular order:

Traditional means of conservation:
1. Reducing high water consumption / evaporation trees such as Eucalyptus near river banks,
2. Planting very high number of native trees such as Neem which give shade reducing water evaporation, prevent soil erosion and very frugal on water consumption.
3. De-silting rivers, canals, lakes and ponds that collect excess river water. Again planning shade giving trees on the banks of these canals, ponds, tanks and mini lakes to reduce evaporation.

Most important:
In most rivers, due to lack of sufficient sand bed (due to sand mafia or natural reasons), not enough water is percolated to underground storage where it benefits water tables of near by areas and more immune to evaporation concerns.

4. Improve underground water storage - Every certain distance, AOL volunteers & environmentalists dug a large "well" or large diameter borewell smack in the middle of the river and covered it with pebbles. There are different calculations to the diameter and depth of these wells factoring into the account nature of soil and nature of river and water flow. This ensures that as much possible water is retained as underground water through natural processes. So the excess water that unnecessarily drains into ocean or evaporates is reduced and even when river runs dry, there is enough underground water until next rainfall. For a river that has gone dry (fully or partially) when water flows into the river after a rainfall, the river quickly gets revived because not too much water is absorbed due to pre-existing underground water
.........
</OT>

If you have stayed with me till now, you may have already guessed it. Now with satellite imagery (or using water diviners), it is possible to see how underground water channels are connected and extract underground water at another distant point in the same channel. For example if we find that underground water channel connected to Indus river or Beas or Chenab extends as far as 15 kms, we can have large borewell based irrigation or canal system (with needed power provided by hydro electric projects on Beas, Chenab or Indus) at the extreme end point of the water channels. These water channels wouldnt go dry as long as we have sufficient number of micro wells that let river water flow into them.

All we would need to do is ensure that we construct thousands of such micro wells that boost up underground water storage and swells these underground water channels.

To my understanding, this approach would not violate IWT as boosting underground water isn't prohibited and neither can it be detected or enforced - unlike say building a canal. If done right, it can be at-least as effective as diverting water over a canal.

If and when J&K goes into governor rule, such a scheme should be quietly implemented. No need for unnecessary publicity.

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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 03 Aug 2017 18:00

SSridhar Ji & schhinas Ji

Reminds me of an old Marathi saying "Mian Ji chi Taang Ooper aur Makaad Mantos Maazi Laal"

India agrees to heed Pakistan’s reservations over Indus hydropower projects

LAHORE: India has agreed to pay heed to Pakistan’s reservations over Indus hydropower projects being built by the former according to the dispute resolution mechanism defined under the Indus Waters Treaty, officials said on Wednesday. “It is for the first time that India itself asked for resolving differences on Indus Waters Treaty as per accusation made by Pakistan,” said an official.

India, for long, disagreed that the technical design features of the two hydroelectric plants (330 megawatts Kishenganga and 850MW Ratle) contravene the treaty. Yet, it agreed to continue discussion on the contentious issues under the aegis of the World Bank, which is a key mediator between the two countries, in future.

Recently, both the countries were engaged in talks to iron out differences over the construction of the plants being built by India on a tributary of the Jhelum and the Chenab rivers. “The Secretary-level discussions between India and Pakistan on the technical issues on the Indus Waters Treaty took place this week in a spirit of goodwill and cooperation,” the World Bank said in a statement following Indus Waters Treaty meetings. “The parties have agreed to continue discussions and reconvene in September in Washington, DC.”

The World Bank announced pausing of settlement process last year. Yet, the foreign lender restarted efforts to reach an amicable resolution of the matter and to safeguard the treaty.

World Bank Group President Kim Yong spoke several times with the finance ministers of both India and Pakistan, while the bank’s Chief Executive Officer Kristalina Georgieva traveled to both the countries to meet with the officials. The World Bank Vice President for the South Asia Region Annette Dixon visited both the countries twice. Yong’s Adviser Ian Solomon made multiple visits to the region.

In fact, the Bank’s teams have convened dozens of meetings with various stakeholders to broker a deal. A variety of proposals have been discussed with both the countries on how to resolve the disagreement.

“Many of these ideas, or similar ones, would be worth pursuing and merit continued consideration,” said the Bank.

The Indus Waters Treaty, signed by India and Pakistan in 1960, designates the two rivers as well as the Indus as the western rivers to which Pakistan has unrestricted use. India is permitted to construct hydroelectric power facilities on these rivers, subject to its adherence to the provisions of the treaty.

Indus Waters Treaty sets forth distinct procedures to handle issues which may arise. Therefore, Pakistan asked the World Bank, which is also a signatory to the treaty, to set up a court of arbitration to look into its concerns about the designs of the two hydroelectric power projects.

In contrast and visibly as a move to stall whole process, officials said India asked for the appointment of a neutral expert for the same purpose. Both India and Pakistan failed to resolve the differences at the platform of the Permanent Indus Commission and through government-to-government talks. During several months prior to December 12, 2016, the World Bank sought to fulfill its procedural obligations with respect to both the court of arbitration and the neutral expert.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 04 Aug 2017 22:40


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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 06 Aug 2017 01:07


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Indus Water Treaty

Postby Peregrine » 07 Aug 2017 14:04

X Posted on the STFUP Thread

India, US conspiring to sabotage Indus Waters Treaty: Pakistan's new foreign minister Khawaja Asif

NEW DELHI: Pakistan has accused India and the US of being "involved in an international conspiracy to sabotage the Indus Water(s) Treaty", reported Pakistani media.

India is "also supporting the conspiracies being hatched by Afghanistan against Pakistan", isn't giving any response to "Pakistan's peace initiatives" and is, like Afghanistan, involved in a "blame game" with Islamabad as the target, said Khawaja Asif, Pakistan's new foreign minister.

In his first press conference since being appointed foreign minister, Asif also reportedly said that "Pakistan's desire for peace and good relations with neighbours should not be construed as its weakness."

Regarding the clauses of the Indus Waters Treaty, Asif didn't specify how the US and India were involved in a "conspiracy to sabotage" it. All he said was that the international community has kept Pakistan in the dark about the treaty's clauses.

Asif may have been referring to what the World Bank,+ not the US, said last week about two Indian dams on the Jhelum and Chenab rivers. The World Bank plays the role of guarantor of the Indus Water Treaty.

The international lending organization said that as per the clauses of the Indus Waters Treaty, India is permitted to construct hydroelectric power facilities on these rivers' tributaries with certain restrictions. Pakistan opposes the Indian construction of the Kishanganga and Ratle hydroelectric power plants on these rivers.

Asif made no comment about India's allegation that Pakistan is constructing six dams on the Indus river in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir with China's assistance, as Minister of State for External Affairs V K Singh said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha last week. The Indian government has in fact issued demarches to both Islamabad and Beijing over the constructions stating that it is in violation of India's sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Pakistan's Asif meanwhile said they are "taken up the burning issue of stoppage of water by India into Pakistani rivers" with the World Bank. He then claimed that the issue of the construction of the Kishanganga dam "had almost been resolved by Pakistan and India about one-and-a-half years ago, but progress on it was halted due to suspension of further talks by India thrice afterwards," reported Nation.

"Both countries want the continuity of the Indus Waters Treaty, however, any violation would worsen relations even further," said Asif, according to The Express Tribune.

The foreign minister's comments on "Pakistan's peace initiatives" took aim at India as well as at Afghanistan.

"It's high time for both India and Afghanistan to come forward as good neighbours and give positive response to Pakistan's peace initiatives and end the blame game," said Asif.

In addition to India being "in a conspiracy with Afghanistan", India was also "continuously violating the ceasefire accord by shelling the civilian population along the Line of Control", Asif said.

India believes it's the other way around. India has often summoned the Pakistani high commissioner in Delhi over Pakistan's continual violations of the ceasefire.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby pankajs » 07 Aug 2017 14:22

BTW, the recent WB communication on IWT indirectly endorsed Indian position that the dispute is technical in nature and not fit for COA.

While it may not be able to persuade Bakis to withdraw it's request for COA, it is clear that resolution has to be arrived at a lower level. In effect it's the Indian position that is being implemented and because of India's strong stance.

Reason for so much khujli in Bakistan. They are not being afforded the opportunity to grand stand and bring extrenious matters into play.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby anupmisra » 07 Aug 2017 16:02

Peregrine wrote:Regarding the clauses of the Indus Waters Treaty, Asif didn't specify how the US and India were involved in a "conspiracy to sabotage" it. All he said was that the international community has kept Pakistan in the dark about the treaty's clauses.


Unbelievable!! I guess the pakis don't have a copy of the UN resolution on cashmere either.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 07 Aug 2017 19:57

I am waiting & watching the unfolding WB drama.

I was astonished in the first place that India agreed to such a 'brokered' meeting between India & Pakistan for two reasons:
  • The WB has no such mandate to 'broker' either in the PIC-level or secretary-level contacts between the two nations. I therefore refused to believe the news item about the Washington meet.
  • I thought India would never allow a third party to interfere in the implementation of IWT even if it were the WB, especially after the strident reference to it by PM Modi

But, now it appears to me that the evil baniya Hindus are up to something. The TFTA mard-e-momin are absolutely clueless.

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby anupmisra » 07 Aug 2017 20:10

SSridhar wrote:But, now it appears to me that the evil baniya Hindus are up to something. The TFTA mard-e-momin are absolutely clueless.


"Clueless" is one thing (all that inbreeding). Feigning ignorance is another. Pakis are now claiming that they were not aware of the treaty terms. In legalese it amounts to putting the onus on the other party. Pakis are now claiming to be the "victims" of a US+India conspiracy!

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby SSridhar » 07 Aug 2017 20:30

anupmisra, that 'ignorance' claim is hilarious. What secret clauses are they talking about? How can a treaty have secret clauses unbeknownest to the Head of State who signed it? After all, the US was staunchly on their side and had an aversion for India (mutual, perhaps) at that time. They even had a 'Mutual Defence Assistance Agreement' through which sophisticated arms & ammunitions were being supplied to Pakistan. The IWT clauses were negotiated for several years between Indian & Pakistani negotiators before being signed. India, as an upper riparian, liberally let go of large quantum of water permanently to a warring, jihadi Pakistan. So, what are these secret clauses? India has simply started to use its provisions of the treaty lately. That's all. Khwaja Asif must let out these secret clauses.

Whenever the Pakistanis talk about IWT, I laugh aloud because my mind goes 14 years back when the Pakistani PIC and his team of engineers claimed that everything 'went above their head' after the evil Indians took them to Roorkee where they had a working model of Baglihar and explained to them their calculations etc.

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Postby Peregrine » 07 Aug 2017 20:51

SSridhar wrote:I am waiting & watching the unfolding WB drama.

I was astonished in the first place that India agreed to such a 'brokered' meeting between India & Pakistan for two reasons:
  • The WB has no such mandate to 'broker' either in the PIC-level or secretary-level contacts between the two nations. I therefore refused to believe the news item about the Washington meet.
  • I thought India would never allow a third party to interfere in the implementation of IWT even if it were the WB, especially after the strident reference to it by PM Modi

But, now it appears to me that the evil baniya Hindus are up to something. The TFTA mard-e-momin are absolutely clueless.
anupmisra wrote:"Clueless" is one thing (all that inbreeding). Feigning ignorance is another. Pakis are now claiming that they were not aware of the treaty terms. In legalese it amounts to putting the onus on the other party. Pakis are now claiming to be the "victims" of a US+India conspiracy!
SSridhar Ji & anupmisra Ji :
Such are the evil genius masterplan machinations of the Yevil Yindian Yindoos & Yamrican that they have "Printed" The Indus Water Treaty in the Yevil Yindian Language of Yinglish - a language which is Phoren to the Bious Muslims of Clapistan! :rotfl:

Now Clapistan will have to re-hire Clapistani British Barrister Khawar Qureshi so that he can read pertinent Clauses of the Indus Water Treaty and explain to the Clapistanis in Urdu the import of the contents regarding the clauses of the Indus Waters Treaty.

Gentlemen please have patience, it might take many months nay years for the Clapstanis to understand the contents of the clauses of the Indus Water Treaty.

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Re:

Postby anupmisra » 07 Aug 2017 23:14

Peregrine wrote:Gentlemen please have patience, it might take many months nay years for the Clapstanis to understand the contents of the clauses of the Indus Water Treaty.


Were they confused between the eastern and western rivers because they all flow into al bakistan?

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Re: Indus Water Treaty

Postby Prem » 07 Aug 2017 23:38

Paaki "gave India water of all Saffron rivers & Kept the green rivers for exclusive use of Momins . Now US, India and WB say no green river exist.

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Re: Re:

Postby Peregrine » 08 Aug 2017 00:12

anupmisra wrote:
Peregrine wrote:Gentlemen please have patience, it might take many months nay years for the Clapstanis to understand the contents of the clauses of the Indus Water Treaty.


Were they confused between the eastern and western rivers because they all flow into al bakistan?
anupmisra Ji :
Could might be conphused but actually the Clapistanis have to wait for somebody or the other to read the IWT and to explain to them the meaning of the Clauses in Urdu!
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