India-Russia: News & Analysis

[krishna_krishna]

VivS this as much before MMS Days, MMS became massa pimp not speaking a word for support to Russkies including Seeria and sanctions during eu craine. Atleast a statement publicaly in support would have been enough. What was the reason for provocation there ?

[svinayak]

Russia is a spent force. With a declining population and brain drain, the cannot get back anywhere close to their former glory. The USSR militar industry complex was very large and had lot of momentum going for it even after collapse of the union.

With all the advances made in electric vehicles, it is a matter of time before oil's utility reduces. There are no long term things going for Russia. Russia would be ill advised to antagonize India, which considered Russia its staunch ally.

Geopolitics goes beyond such things. Russia still hold the land mass and that is huge and plays a major influence in the Eurasian politics.
Central Asia, East Asia and Middle east has Russia influence and India is impacted by that.

TO prevent NATO to take over dominance of Oceans below southern Asia - Indo - Pacific ocean Russia is trying to build relations with all countries touching the Indo Pacific Ocean.(Pak)
US has established relationship with those countries in the RIM of the Indo Pacific in the 'Pivot' to Asia Strategy.
US has opened new relations with Iran, Myanmar, Vietnam, Af-Pak, Iraq

The SCO has welcomed most of those countries to prevent them to cooperate with NATO

India holds the IOR key and Russia needs India to keep IOR neutral. Hence Russia has invested in N submarines, advanced weapon systems with India since India holds the dominance and can tilt the balance.

Even China needs India for cooperation in SCO to prevent total encirclement of China

[svinayak]

LEMOA is absolutely essential for US. They will pay any price to get it!

[Bhurishravas]

Imho Indian diplomacy has failed to support Russia where it easily could have. For example, we did not raise much sound over the shooting down of the Russian plane by Turks. Nor on Ukraine issue.
While the change/readjustment in Indian foreign policy is welcome, not making sounds in support of Russia where we can/could is foolish and reminiscent of small power mentality.

Not sure what you are saying. We did not condemn the Crimea invasion, we did not blame the Russians (or their proxies) for shooting down the Malaysian airliner. Are you suggesting that we should have supported them on both counts?

The shoot down in Syria was for the Russians and Turks to figure out.

Not sure what you are saying either.
Since 95% of the events are between two sovereign states why do we need to give statements over anything anyway. Since Kashmir issue is for Pakistan and India to figure out why does Russia have to veto resolutions in UN security council.
We did not condemn the maidan coup either. Or was it a revolution? We did not condemn a fascist puppet government initiating a military campaign against its eastern region either. Are you suggesting that India did Russia a favour by not condemning its takeover of Crimea which is 90% Russian anyway?

The Paki Russian exercise is fine. Why are so we hot and bothered about it? Play the game, next time they want to train with us, ask them to come to Arunachal Pradesh. Then see whether they balk when the PRC convulses

The Paki Russian exercise is fine. And we dont need to be bothered about it. Agreed there.
We also do not need to propose training in Arunachal either. Thats not needed unless one is too bothered.

[Bhurishravas]

India signed lesmoa with sworn enemy of russia. In turn russia pays back compliment.

Russia has been arming up China for long. Where are the jet planes engines into paki bandars coming from.
Russia is free to chose its friends. The PAki-Russian exercise itself is no big deal.
But India would do well to articulate its positions well. Islamists like Erdogan are supporting Pakistan overtly by declaring human rights violations in Kashmir. But India wont condemn Turkey when it shoots down a russian plane. Thats small power mentality and foolish according to me.

[Philip]

Russia could easily absorb a few millions of Indians to exploit its vast untapped mineral wealth. A million Indians on its eastern border with China would also aid in securing a defensive shield against the Hans!

It is true though that we could've been more forthright in support of Russia over the UKR/Crimea,Syria,etc. The sheer duplicity and hypocrisy of western nations beggars the imagination.For the UK to accuse the Russians of war crimes in Syria when they've butchered they way in the ME,Libya,etc. over a decade now,is simply appalling.

Russia has had to export arms to China to keep its arms industry alive.However,it has to be noted that thus far China has never been given the most advanced versions of mil systems,becos of PRC copycat activities and Ru suspicion of PRC long-term intent in the east.
Should we firm up the FGFA deal amongst others, we will still have mil superiority over the PRC as far as Ru eqpt. is concerned.

[Austin]

All this discussion is like Alif Lila Ki Kahani simply delusional , India is having hard time taking decision what to do about those POK terrorist that come into our own country and attack armed forces and civilians.

There is no point in living a Sheik Chilli world where India will stand up to protect its Interest or of some other Nation in the World when we cannout protect our against our own neighbour.

China , Russia are very different players with total different political will and ability to use its armed forces to protect its interest ..... We have a very long way to go and attacking POK to protect our own interest would be a baby step in this direction , lets first act as regional player in protecting our interest before we become a global one.

Let us stand up for our own interest first and defend it every time till we stand up for worlds interest or our own interest globally.

[Viv S]

VivS this as much before MMS Days, MMS became massa pimp not speaking a word for support to Russkies including Seeria and sanctions during eu craine. Atleast a statement publicaly in support would have been enough. What was the reason for provocation there ?

I suggest you edit your post. Its quite muddled as it stands.

Yes this was before MMS days. India hadn't 'provoked' Russia yet. Didn't stop the Russians from signing a strategic agreement with China now did it?

As for the other part, assuming we subscribe to a linear understanding of time, I fail to see how not showing support over a dispute that hadn't occurred yet, can be considered a 'provocation'.

Timeline:

2001: China-Russia treaty.
2004: UPA govt formed
2014: NDA govt formed
2014: West sanctions Russia
2015: Russia intervenes in Syria

[Viv S]

Since 95% of the events are between two sovereign states why do we need to give statements over anything anyway. Since Kashmir issue is for Pakistan and India to figure out why does Russia have to veto resolutions in UN security council.

1. The last UN resolution on Kashmir was passed in 1951.
2. The last Soviet veto on the "India-Pakistan question" (not Kashmir) was issued in Dec 1971.

The Russian Federation has never vetoed any resolution on Kashmir.

[Austin]

RF is the defacto successor of SU as it took over all the rights obligations and debts of Soviet Union and indeed UNSC seat as well.

Perhaps there is no UN resolution on Kashmir on long , 1971 was a war and they had to veto thrice as West was pushing for some sanctions on India ....If there is again a war on kashmir we will see how many will stand up for India

[rsingh]

Russia just playing brinkmanship here and to their amazement we are not blinking first.

[zoverian]

Russia just playing brinkmanship here and to their amazement we are not blinking first.

This is interesting......

[Austin]

IIRC India abstained from Ukraine vote at UN and RF abmassador to India thanked India for it. Russia never asked India to vote for it or against it.
When Kerry was in India then Sushma said that RF India relation would be business as usual irrespective of Ukraine event.

On Syria both Russia and India are on the same page , they dont want Regiem change in Syria and they want a free and fair election with all stake holder , so there is no issue there. Since India is not at UNSC where real game is played India cannot critically infulence decision on Syria , Had India had Veto power it would have gone along with Russia and Syrian Assad on larger picture of not affecting regiem change through outside support.

India voting or not voting against Russia is more like a Good Will gesture on part of India which is a welcome one but Since India does not hold a veto to critically influence things at UNSC , I dont think RF would be enthusiastic or dissapointed if vote goes either war , The bilateral relation is too deep too strong and too long to be affected by any specific event that happens at world stage.

[Austin]

This is how we have been accustomed to look at currency. We wonder what will Russia do with accumulating rupee reserves? At the same time we question what exactly full convertibility means or in what way does SDR status contribute to the strength of the currency?

We have heard about Pavlov and his experiments with his dogs. Our response to the bell is quite Pavlovian. I mean no disrespect. I am just stating how we have been conditioned to think in a particular way.

Trade surpluses and trade deficits are ubiquitous in the $ based international monetary system ($IMFS). Its a vestige of Bretton Woods and Petrodollar system.

In my opinion, we are moving away from trade imbalances to balanced trade. We cannot buy until we pay for it. Countries like China believe that they can keep accumulating surpluses. Countries like US believe that they can can run perpetual deficits by just raising the debt ceiling every year.

When the transition happens, we will move to settlement. Not unlike it happens at individual level. We are not going back to barter as Willem Middlekoop keeps saying or to SDR based gold standard as Jim Rickards does.

All settlement will happen using the only 'GIffen Good' that central bank trust. Russia is well positioned for this too.

The key question is what do we pay with is it Rupee , Gold , SDR or Green Buck .....Today the global system of Energy trade is well positioned and time tested to be paid with Green Buck .......its serves OPEC interest of trading in Green Buck in return for Security from America.

But Russia is not part of OPEC cartel whose power is itself diminishing in determining the price of Oil ..... Then that leaves we pay in Gold as universal currency to bypass every thing or Central Bank of Both Country Work out a Mechanism for payment or part payment in Rupee and some other mechanism be it Gold or SDR. Even Iran went back on its promise to trade Oil in Rupee for India

Its very complicated but PBOC and CBR has worked our mechanism for Renminbi Ruble trade plus their mutual trading base is large ....We will have to work out similar mechanicm with RBI and CBR and increase the trading base.

[Viv S]

RF is the defacto successor of SU as it took over all the rights obligations and debts of Soviet Union and indeed UNSC seat as well.

The Soviet Union and India had a strategic relationship uniting us against the threat from the US & China. So, if Russia took over all of the 'rights, obligations and debts' of the USSR then it can also be understood to have struck the first blow against the Indo-Soviet relationship by signing a military treaty with the PRC and permitting them access to high end weapons & technology.

Perhaps there is no UN resolution on Kashmir on long , 1971 was a war and they had to veto thrice as West was pushing for some sanctions on India ....If there is again a war on kashmir we will see how many will stand up for India

And if there is a war on Tawang... ?

[Kashi]

And if there is a war on Tawang... ?

We'll probably see the same. No one wishes to get entangled in others affairs. We saw in Ukraine, Yemen and Syria, unless their interests are involved.

[Austin]

The Soviet Union and India had a strategic relationship uniting us against the threat from the US & China. So, if Russia took over all of the 'rights, obligations and debts' of the USSR then it can also be understood to have struck the first blow against the Indo-Soviet relationship by signing a military treaty with the PRC and permitting them access to high end weapons & technology.

If China was so inimical to Indias interest we would not have joined China lead SCO or china lead Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) in which we are 2nd largest contributor.

And if there is a war on Tawang... ?

Well we can even fight with the Aliens or Tawang and Russians may Veto that, Let GOI show courage first to attack POK and Pakistan

[ldev]

If China was so inimical to Indias interest we would not have joined China lead SCO or china lead Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) in which we are 2nd largest contributor.

And the US and the USSR were real close buddies at the end of WW 2. That is the only reason that the USSR joined a western dominated UN security countil. After all the US was not inimical to the USSR's interests!!

More seriously, the US and the West is squeezing Russian financial gonads. And when that Russian reserve fund runs dry, the only country that can write them a big enough cheque is China. For the right pound of flesh from the Russians, China will be able to increase the current $25 billion swap facility by a multiple factor. Can India do anything remotely similar? One could argue that China is using it's financial muscle to achieve strategic goals vs India by pulling the Russians into the China-Pakistan orbit. i doubt the Russians like this....they like to view themselves as a European power. But with the US financial pressure they have virtually no other options. India-Russia relations are bound to be affected by this play.

[Austin]

And the US and the USSR were real close buddies at the end of WW 2. That is the only reason that the USSR joined a western dominated UN security countil. After all the US was not inimical to the USSR's interests!!

More seriously, the US and the West is squeezing Russian financial gonads. And when that Russian reserve fund runs dry, the only country that can write them a big enough cheque is China. For the right pound of flesh from the Russians, China will be able to increase the current $25 billion swap facility by a multiple factor. Can India do anything remotely similar? One could argue that China is using it's financial muscle to achieve strategic goals vs India by pulling the Russians into the China-Pakistan orbit. i doubt the Russians like this....they like to view themselves as a European power. But with the US financial pressure they have virtually no other options. India-Russia relations are bound to be affected by this play.

China has swap agreement with many countries and now once they are in SDR their infulence will only grow.Recently they opened in Renminbi clearing center in US and Britain has the 2nd largest Renmibi clearing center IIRC. Its more of a reflection of China trade base which iirc has surpassed US last year.

But both china and US are in extreme large debt so this cycle wont last long and the skewed economic situation means the longer this goes the greater will be the fall , remember we are in 90 month of near zero interest rate cycle.

Sanctions are good for Russia it forces her to trade with China , India and countries in East where the WB predict will be real growth for next 30 years and subsequently more energy needs , You see the many energy deal we had with russia in past 2 years is more than we had in past 25 years , same goes with China , Vietnam etc.

I hope the EU and US keeps the sanction for many decade which would force the Oligarch not suck up to west , Already some EU countries want to remove sanction which I think is bad

[Viv S]

If China was so inimical to Indias interest we would not have joined China lead SCO or china lead Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) in which we are 2nd largest contributor.

So.. you're suggesting China policies are not inimical to India's interests?

The fact that Pakistan is a 'fellow member' in the SCO, I believe illustrates the nature of that organisation. Its a talking forum not unlike the G7/G8/G20 and nothing more.

As for AIIB, practically every major state in the world is a member with the exception of Japan & US. China has a surplus of capital and limited avenues of productive investment, while developing states like India have extensive investment opportunities, particularly in infrastructure, and a scarcity of capital. They've put a fancy name on it and given a nice rosy tint to its image, but at its core.. its business (same is true for the NDB).

That's why we were welcome in the AIIB & SCO but have been blocked in the NSG & UNSC.

Well we can even fight with the Aliens or Tawang and Russians may Veto that, Let GOI show courage first to attack POK and Pakistan

Because if there's a war, it can only be started by India? And while nobody gives two hoots about the UN at this point, question is will Russia 'stand up' for India as the Soviets did?

If not, then we can finally close the book on the Soviet nostalgia and look the facts in the face - Russia isn't USSR. Its a different country, with a differing set of national interests that may only intermittently coincide with ours.

[Austin]

So.. you're suggesting China policies are not inimical to India's interests?

The fact that Pakistan is a 'fellow member' in the SCO, I believe illustrates the nature of that organisation. Its a talking forum not unlike the G7/G8/G20 and nothing more.

Atleast Delhi does not look China policies threatening enough and is happily to interact at BRICS , SCO , Bilateral , Banks and what not.

Pakistan is also member of SAARC and India does not stop any relationship with Pakistan , atleast not so far.

Let India take some action to start with pakistan then we will see how it goes and how long , Rest all talks on Tawang are just hypothetical.

Because if there's a war, it can only be started by India? And while nobody gives two hoots about the UN at this point, question is will Russia 'stand up' for India as the Soviets did?

Russia will stand up and sit coz they have a chair in UN where they can do both

Will US stand up or sit down or do both

[panduranghari]

Its very complicated but PBOC and CBR has worked our mechanism for Renminbi Ruble trade plus their mutual trading base is large ....We will have to work out similar mechanicm with RBI and CBR and increase the trading base.

I very quickly tried to find out the trade balance between Russia and China. I did not get much far. I think that might shed more light on how the 2 are making their currency swaps work.

Just to do a quick guesstimate- Russia has oil. China needs oil. China accepts Russian rouble for the goods they buy from Russia- mainly oil. Russia needs Chinese stuff. Those things inaccessible to Russians from west, like semiconductor chips amongst others, are bought from China by accepting Rmb. They may also use spare Roubles for this.

Of course there will be quite a lot of information in the details, which I hope you can find.

India can lever its population base. That is what no other nation-state has. We could accept oil and pay in return by labour of our citizens for a certain time. Most countries would jump the gun. Merkel episode has proven, you cannot import labour from moslem lands, without ruining your own country.

While automation is heralded as saving grace for the west, I doubt if all can afford automation. IMO onlee.

[Viv S]

Atleast Delhi does not look China policies threatening enough and is happily to interact at BRICS , SCO , Bilateral , Banks and what not.

Pakistan is also member of SAARC and India does not stop any relationship with Pakistan , atleast not so far.

Let India take some action to start with pakistan then we will see how it goes and how long , Rest all talks on Tawang are just hypothetical.

The point being made was that modern-day Russia is not Cold War-era UN-vetoing USSR. Our strategic interests diverge on China and they're diverging on Pakistan.

The fact that we talk and trade with China & Pakistan does not bridge our faultlines with either state.

[Karan M]

>>>The fact that we talk and trade with China & Pakistan does not bridge our faultlines with either state.

LOL same applies to US as well.

[JwalaMukhi]

Russia has not been understood by Indians and that is huge Blind Spot. This wilful blind spot is going to hurt for a very long time. The amount of dispassion that is exhibited when dealing with other countries, is plainly not shown when assessing Russia. Russia is treated just like minorities are treated by the pseudo-secular government. This is largely due to cultivation of eco-system inside India for a long time.

Russia enjoyed monopoly for a long time in supplying overpriced equipment. Indians were pushed to TINA factor. Just as when commies take over, it becomes useful to stay in line to get ones quota of bread. Has any serious attempt be done to study the Russia links with current day commies, Naxals and even Islamists for that matter? While Russia is eager to be wannabe Four Father of napakis, the eco-system inside India says India needs "self-introspection"to see why the lily white taller then mountain deeper than ocean friend Russia is forced to act like that. Would napakis attacking India serve Russia's interests to push to sell more over priced stuff, with an already cultivated procurers inside Indian establishment?

Common sense dictates,one needs to see how Russia's friends have fared in the long run. Russia doesn't have wherewithal (neither demographics and most importantly nor openness) to adjust to changing global situation. It is playing in earlier era and will continue to do so as long as possible.

The relationship with Russia has come at a very heavy price for India and none on the Indian side is willing to study and assess it. It has created India to look and trust in others, and has stunted India's trust in itself.
Prediction: In long run Syria is going to be a looser, just as Cuba is. India better get out of this blind one-sided love affair with Russia, and display atleast 50% of skepticism it displays while it deals with US. Else, just like napakis, Indians will be beholden to its own tallel than mountain and deeper than ocean dosth Russia.

[krishna_krishna]

How come Russians supported us by trailing massa battle group by its own submarine and we won 1971, I do not believe we lost with their support. Cuba too if you see from different angle. Vietnam too, only place they lost is a'stan and because of internal reasons. They again bounced back from what they were in 90's. Give due credit when they deserve, can anyone claim where they were no one including massa thoughts that they would be able to stand up. Now they are up and running

[Manish_Sharma]

For my education I want answers to these questions :
1.) Who will impose sactions and work against Bharatvarsh if we were to conduct nuclear tests, Russia OR amrika?

2.) Who impose sanctions and work against Bharatvarsh if we were to launch war against porkis, grab hold of Haji Pir Pass, Neelam Valley, Skardu? And who will pressure Bharat Sarkaar to return these back to porkis, Russia or amrika?

3.) If Bharat were to find agosta sub and drown it, plus attack Jinna naval base, Karachi port and Gwadar port, who will sanction, hurt, pressurise Bharat Russia or amrika?

In all the above or one of above 3 acts Bharat does who will feel anger in their heart against us more Russia or amrika?

[panduranghari]

^ the ability of US and Russia, independently or together to hurt India in 2016 is severely blunted. Its not 1998 any more.

[JwalaMukhi]

Hypothetical scenarios are one thing.

What Russians have done is equivalent to:

India conducting joint exercises with Ukraine near Crimea, and then to add insult injury make a vague statement from a low-level official flunkey saying that reports in the media about India and Ukraine participating is not actually in Crimea, while Russians were in thick of things dealing with svestapol crisis.

At a minimum, this kind of Russian action with napakis, should have atleast had the Russian ambassador woken up in midnight and given an earful.

Instead, Indians are into a tizzy discussing whether, Indians signed Lemo, didn't tie their dhothis properly, or did Indians look funny when talking to some Russians, which has pushed Russia to be wannabe four fathers.

The Indian mind is phucked up with Russian love affair, even today there are many inside India proudly calling themselves and naming their kids Stalin. A sign of mindphucked nation beholden to some fairy tale. While effect of maculay is known, the cultivation of Indians by Russians largely remains unknown.

[Manish_Sharma]

Or just the presence of both Ukrainian and Georgian defence ministers in desh, they are present in Barak 8 testing, then photographed caressing the MRSAMs affectionately.....

Just on the concluding day of pork-russo excercise !!!

[Paul]

We have to swallow this, give the Russians a tongue lashing and then move on. This was coming for the last 10+ years.

It was the right decision to sign LEMOA. We need an independent foreign policy. and since we pay cash for our purchases, it is our wish who we purchase it from.

[Philip]

Givwe the Russians a tongue-lashing!? Ye Gods.WE've just drummed up enough courage to scold Pak,haven't yet been able to scold its chief sponsors,the US and China ,who have provided Pak with almost all of its mil eqpt. and financial support. Yet somee dream of tongue-lashing the nation which supplies us with 75% of our arms,esp cutting edge eqpt. like BMos,MKIs,Vik-A carrier,Akula N-sub,etc,etc.,

Instead,when Putin comes-a-visiting in October,we should firm up swift delivery of S-400s (to give us an ABM defence) plus whatever other eqpt. that the 3 services require to go to war with Pak within the next 6 months.

[Cosmo_R]

Hypothetical scenarios are one thing.

What Russians have done is equivalent to:

India conducting joint exercises with Ukraine near Crimea, and then to add insult injury make a vague statement from a low-level official flunkey saying that reports in the media about India and Ukraine participating is not actually in Crimea, while Russians were in thick of things dealing with svestapol crisis.

At a minimum, this kind of Russian action with napakis, should have atleast had the Russian ambassador woken up in midnight and given an earful.

Instead, Indians are into a tizzy discussing whether, Indians signed Lemo, didn't tie their dhothis properly, or did Indians look funny when talking to some Russians, which has pushed Russia to be wannabe four fathers.

The Indian mind is phucked up with Russian love affair, even today there are many inside India proudly calling themselves and naming their kids Stalin. A sign of mindphucked nation beholden to some fairy tale. While effect of maculay is known, the cultivation of Indians by Russians largely remains unknown.

+1.

I remember as a 1st standard kid in Delhi, getting a holiday in 1953 for some person named 'staleen'. Flags were flown at half mast such was our affection for a mass murderer.

[Cosmo_R]

Questions 1-4: China ^^^

[Philip]

By the time Putin visits Delhi Aleppo would've fallen to his and Syrian forces.Mr.Modi would do well to ask his advice on how to deal with Pak,using muscle. What Russia under Putin's leadership is doing in the MEast is saving the region from the most evil and monstrous rabid force of anti-humans the planet has ever seen.The great tragedy is that the US and West,supposed upholders of democracy,human rights,blah,blah,have been the most blatant supporters of the anti-human legions."A plague upon their houses",truly said the bard!

[Manish_P]

Mr.Modi would do well to ask his advice on how to deal with Pak,using muscle.

Why ?

Does Russia have a lot of experience in dealing/defeating the Pakis

[saumitra_j]

Before we get all emotional about Russians exercising with Porkis, have we considered that we are signing LEMOA and all sorts of agreements with the nation that has armed the Porkis to teeth? Why this anger against the Russians onlee, hain ji? That said, Russia is doing what they think is good for them, we should do what is good for us. Phillip sir, Putin can NO WAY tell us anything about how to deal with Porkis, just as we can tell nothing to the Russians about Nuclear Bombs. If anyone has to learn anything, Russia should learn from India how to increase population, because that is one thing that is going to destroy them as a nation!!
Slightly O.T. but I have had the pleasure of dealing with the Russians professionally and if what I saw was how the general culture is, then Russians have a very very long way to go before they can compete in a free market economy. Completely inflexible, process oriented blokes - the 80 20 rule still applied, some folks were brilliant but lack of flexibility, unprofessional attitude, and absolutely no culture of "service", with a cocky attitude despite screw ups... I probably realised first hand what the IAF and IN are going through dealing with Russia as a vendor

[Philip]

The Russians in their recent pro-active military actions in the UKR/Crimea and in Syria,have shown that they can take decisive military measures and hold their own against the US,UK,NATO,ISIS and the camel drivers of Arabia! Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.Don't forget the Russians have a very long military history where they defeated Napoleon and Hitler.In Syria right now,they're showing the world how to win battles against a plethora of enemies from east to west.

[Kashi]

The Russians in their recent pro-active military actions in the UKR/Crimea and in Syria,have shown that they can take decisive military measures and hold their own against the US,UK,NATO,ISIS and the camel drivers of Arabia! Had Pak behaved against Russia the way it has done with India,it would've been decimated long ago.Don't forget the Russians have a very long military history where they defeated Napoleon and Hitler.In Syria right now,they're showing the world how to win battles against a plethora of enemies from east to west.

Ha ha Afghan war ring any bells?

[Paul]

Paki F16s have shot down soviet MIGs in the Afghan war.