India-Russia: News & Analysis

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2019 20:19

EP.734: Alexey Pushkov- Though not India Specific but good insight into Russian Foreign Policy from one of Foreign Policy makers in Russian Parilament


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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Austin » 15 Apr 2019 11:31

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/r ... 2019-04-12

Russia awards Narendra Modi its highest order, PM thanks Putin

HIGHLIGHTS
PM Modi awarded for helping boost India-Russia ties
Order of St Andrew the Apostle was established in 17th century
The award is Russia's highest state decoration

Russia has awarded Prime Minister Narendra Modi Order of St Andrew the Apostle, the highest order of the Russian Federation. PM Modi was awarded the order for "exceptional services in promoting special & privileged strategic partnership between" Russia and India, the Russian embassy in India said in a tweet.

PM Modi thanked Russian President Vladimir Putin, saying he was "honoured to receive this prestigious award". "Foundations of India-Russia friendship are deep & the future of our partnership is bright," PM Modi said, adding, "President Putin remains a source of great strength for the India-Russia friendship. Under his visionary leadership, bilateral and multilateral cooperation between our nations has scaled new heights."

Honoured to receive this prestigious award. I thank President Putin and the people of Russia.

Foundations of India-Russia friendship are deep & the future of our partnership is bright.

Extensive cooperation between our nations has led to extraordinary outcomes for our citizens. https://t.co/4ppEC7ZAWe

Chowkidar Narendra Modi (@narendramodi) April 12, 2019
According to the Russian government, the Order of St Andrew the Apostle was established in the 17th century by Peter the Great around 1699 and is the oldest of Russia's state decorations.


The Order of St Andrew the Apostle is both the highest and the oldest state decoration of Russia. The order was abolished in the erstwhile Soviet Union in 1918 and was re-established in 1998.

On April 12, @narendramodi was decorated with the Order of St Andrew the Apostle for exceptional services in promoting special & privileged strategic partnership between and and friendly relations between the Russian and Indian peoples.@mfa_russia @MEAIndia @IndEmbMoscow pic.twitter.com/jUFt5aawxw

Russia in India (@RusEmbIndia) April 12, 2019
According to the Russian government, "The Order of St Andrew the Apostle is awarded to outstanding politicians and public figures, as well as other citizens of Russia, for exceptional services..."

In 2017, Chinese president Xi Jinping was awarded the Order of St Andrew the Apostle.

With the Russian award, PM Narendra Modi has now been honoured with around seven top global awards. PM Modi has previously been awarded the United Arab Emirates's top honour as well as of countries including South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Palestine and Afghanistan.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby vimal » 15 Apr 2019 11:42

Austin wrote:https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/russia-narendra-modi-order-of-st-andrew-the-apostle-1500321-2019-04-12

Russia awards Narendra Modi its highest order, PM thanks Putin

With the Russian award, PM Narendra Modi has now been honoured with around seven top global awards. PM Modi has previously been awarded the United Arab Emirates's top honour as well as of countries including South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Palestine and Afghanistan.


:shock: :shock: When did Modi get so many awards? I don't remember reading about any??
Is this a case if strength respects strength.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby rajsunder » 08 May 2019 06:27

what do our learned maulanas think about this



In this video Abhijit Iyer says that it is just a matter of time before russia would be in the lap of China and by proxy in the lap of bakistan.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby kit » 08 May 2019 07:44

rajsunder wrote:what do our learned maulanas think about this



In this video Abhijit Iyer says that it is just a matter of time before russia would be in the lap of China and by proxy in the lap of bakistan.


i don't think Russia will be in the lap of China or anyone else for that matter, they value their autonomy more than most people think., this is a country that lost millions of their youth in the world wars. Their relation with China is more of a marriage of convenience., they will get out of it the moment the west does away their embargo and related restrictions. China is actually a strategic threat to them despite their professed bonhomie. The relation with Pakistan should not be seen through the china lens but it is more of a necessity in view of the Islamist threat via Afghanistan.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Aditya_V » 08 May 2019 11:49

Part of this propaganda by some Arms dealers selling western equipment, India has made too many Russians deals, the Russians will continue to sell to their biggest customer PRC( off course everything will always be perfectly reverse engineered by the Chinese) and some equipment to Pakis like RD 33, Mi 35 and Mi 17 which will harm us. But they are hardly going to be a poodle to China that too for the Pakis sake and pull the plug on

ARMy
1. 464 T-90, parts for 1000 T-90 1700 T72, M-46, BMP, bridging equipment, Smerch, Brahmos etc

Airforce

1. Supply of various ordinance sparts for Mig 29, SU 30 fleet along with spare parts
2. S-400
3. 18 new Build SU 30 and 21 Mig 29
4. Significant fleet of Mi 17's
5.Brahmos and other CM
Navy
1. Ka 31's, Ka28
2. Krivak class Ships
3. Akula subs
4. Brahmos and various CM from styx, Kashin AK 630.

The point is over 50 years both Russia and India have a lot of interdependence even in Oil and Gas etc. The Russians are not so helpless to throw all this out for China. We should stop taking snake oil salesmen soo seriously.

The India- Russia alliance does cause a lot of takleef to China and the West, it was why Nixon and Mao collaborated, so they will use snake oil salesmen to divide and drive a wedge.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby rajsunder » 09 May 2019 04:50

kit wrote:
i don't think Russia will be in the lap of China or anyone else for that matter, they value their autonomy more than most people think., this is a country that lost millions of their youth in the world wars. Their relation with China is more of a marriage of convenience., they will get out of it the moment the west does away their embargo and related restrictions. China is actually a strategic threat to them despite their professed bonhomie. The relation with Pakistan should not be seen through the china lens but it is more of a necessity in view of the Islamist threat via Afghanistan.

As per the video China buys close to $50 billion dollars worth of crude from Russia. As the time passes by and oil depending countries will have to face the consequences of increased electric cars usage and decrease of crude usage, countries like Russia will become desperate to hang on to their customers.
In 5 to 10 years majority of the weaponry sold by Russia would become obsolete. Except few technologies, Russia is not investing in R & D in other domains. Case and point would be the PAKFA. Russians lack resources to build world class weapons.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Cain Marko » 09 May 2019 10:15

^yeah we heard this stuff before after the fall of the FSU, it's almost 30 years since and the world including India continues to buy rusdki weapons. Of course I'm sure it will be all obsolete in the next 10 years
Last edited by Cain Marko on 09 May 2019 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby kit » 09 May 2019 10:21

rajsunder wrote:
kit wrote:
i don't think Russia will be in the lap of China or anyone else for that matter, they value their autonomy more than most people think., this is a country that lost millions of their youth in the world wars. Their relation with China is more of a marriage of convenience., they will get out of it the moment the west does away their embargo and related restrictions. China is actually a strategic threat to them despite their professed bonhomie. The relation with Pakistan should not be seen through the china lens but it is more of a necessity in view of the Islamist threat via Afghanistan.

As per the video China buys close to $50 billion dollars worth of crude from Russia. As time passes by and oil depending countries will have to face the consequences of increased electric cars usage and decrease of crude usage, countries like Russia will become desperate to hang on to their customers.
In 5 to 10 years the majority of the weaponry sold by Russia would become obsolete. Except few technologies, Russia is not investing in R & D in other domains. Case and point would be the PAKFA. Russians lack resources to build world class weapons.


they would be down but not out. A country's greatest strength is the will of the people and that is the indicator they have gone by and do so in the future, no Russian I have met be it a millionaire or otherwise have forgotten how the west has treated them and how they view China ( which is not so much )., just a matter of time. Russians are strong in the basic sciences and so they will be ready when they invest more in research., and they are right now focussing on strategic and asymmetric weapon tech, like hypersonic weapons

As regards crude futures that is a different ball game, will be played out and through with it in the next decade. the future is indeed electric!

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 09 May 2019 11:31

kit wrote:
rajsunder wrote:As per the video China buys close to $50 billion dollars worth of crude from Russia. As time passes by and oil depending countries will have to face the consequences of increased electric cars usage and decrease of crude usage, countries like Russia will become desperate to hang on to their customers.
In 5 to 10 years the majority of the weaponry sold by Russia would become obsolete. Except few technologies, Russia is not investing in R & D in other domains. Case and point would be the PAKFA. Russians lack resources to build world class weapons.


they would be down but not out. A country's greatest strength is the will of the people and that is the indicator they have gone by and do so in the future, no Russian I have met be it a millionaire or otherwise have forgotten how the west has treated them and how they view China ( which is not so much )., just a matter of time. Russians are strong in the basic sciences and so they will be ready when they invest more in research., and they are right now focussing on strategic and asymmetric weapon tech, like hypersonic weapons

As regards crude futures that is a different ball game, will be played out and through with it in the next decade. the future is indeed electric!


++1 KIt.

All Russians, I have met know this point, and feel it. At least one thing that the Soviet Union, gave them was good basic education system, though it's slowly fraying.

I find Russians similar to India on many factors:
  1. Family is still important, with mothers playing a larger role.
  2. Long history and longer memory.
  3. Like India, they have had cyclic stages of deracination- fascination with West and a return to the soil. Tsarist Russia had French as court language with the bourgeois sending children to Paris for education, and the pull back of the intellectuals who led the revolution in search for roots. Similar played out with fascination of trying to be European in the mid nineties, and then the realization that they will never be accepted as Europeans

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby siqir » 27 May 2019 20:20


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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Austin » 24 Jun 2019 10:31

Russia, India should support their own currencies instead of using US dollar — official

https://tass.com/economy/1064439

MUMBAI, June 18. /TASS/. Russia and India should jointly use the dollar less and develop national currencies instead, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev said on Tuesday at the session of the Eastern Economic Forum in India.

"This is an advantage that the US enjoys. With the help of the dollar, they significantly influence world economy," Trutnev said.

"The world should be multipolar both politically and economically. We should work on this together. I am confident that there should not be only one dominant currency in the world, this is just wrong," he added.

In particular, Russia and India should support their own national currencies, he concluded.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Austin » 24 Jun 2019 10:35

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:I find Russians similar to India on many factors:
[list=1]
[*] Family is still important, with mothers playing a larger role.


mostly due to revival of Eastern Orthodox church after fall of SU ......While church is not the state it has increasing infulence when it comes to social policy matters.

West know this and try to slide in LGBT Rights , Jehova Witness etc to break the social fabric and when the back of both got broken they west cried foul.

I have not see any Western leaders crying about LGBT right for any Islamic countries.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Jun 2019 18:39

Austin wrote:Russia, India should support their own currencies instead of using US dollar — official

https://tass.com/economy/1064439

MUMBAI, June 18. /TASS/. Russia and India should jointly use the dollar less and develop national currencies instead, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Trutnev said on Tuesday at the session of the Eastern Economic Forum in India.

"This is an advantage that the US enjoys. With the help of the dollar, they significantly influence world economy," Trutnev said.

"The world should be multipolar both politically and economically. We should work on this together. I am confident that there should not be only one dominant currency in the world, this is just wrong," he added.

In particular, Russia and India should support their own national currencies, he concluded.


A nonsense report to make Indians feel good. The Russians want USD plain and simple. They get that with India’s arms purchases. Commercial trade relations are abysmal. If they can supply gas for cheap, then the story changes, until then it’s all pissing in the wind.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 25 Jun 2019 19:25

Barter trade works well too.It avoids trading in the almighty greenback and avoids sanctions.India can easily buy Iranian oil in a tri- partite exchange, where Russia sells us Iranian oil its bought and we pay for it in whatever currency/ basket of commodities that the Iranians desire via Russia.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby dinesh_kimar » 26 Jun 2019 17:42

We need to escape the bear hug, which wants to stifle and ensnare us. It is no longer the bear of old, but a rabid offshoot.

They played dirty with weapon and part deliveries, didn't adhere to cost , quality and delivery for last 25 years now. We are their only market in many cases.

Our critical requirement may be nuclear equipment and supplies like the Akula and it's fuel, S400 strategic air defence systems and radars, and Su-30 engines and radar (raw materials!). Maybe a ear at the security council is useful. Maybe space cooperation is required.

But cap it at these items only. Pay for their use, till we have a better alternative. If they refuse, do local development like the cryogenic engine.

We should not encourage them much for bread and butter tactical gear like rifles, ammo , ships and light helicopter, when we either have a domestic program or better source.

Recent discussions of choosing LCA over old Mig 29 has got me thinking along these lines.

When numbers are critical, and domestic production is low / needs time to pick up, a good strategy may be to deploy nuclear weapons in the services.

For Eg. No one will pick up fight with even a 25 squadron IAF, if they have nuclear weapons deployed under local commanders, the similar doctrine followed by NATO against overwhelming massed Soviet union forces.

The Pakis have successfully used their low cost tactical nuke scare on us, and we almost broke the bank buying 124 + 72 Rafales.

We need time and space for our MIC to grow.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby abhik » 26 Jun 2019 23:17

IMO the establishment have been metaphorically honey trapped (Natasha'd) but are in denial - we still think this is true love. She is squeezing us for all we have got, in exchange all we get is some choli-ke-peche nebulous benefits.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 27 Jun 2019 09:01

Let's get real about our capabilities.We are about 30 to 40 years behind the major players in tech. We've yet to make a fighter engine despite decades of spoonfeeding Kaveri. We have yet to perfect an AESA radar too.We take great pride in BMos, but in truth the engine, the core element is Ru.Our relationship with Ru allows us to leapfrog tech. which the west is discarding and wants us to buy like F-16/18s.We do not have the money .Our entire N-sub programme would be in its infancy without Ru help.The lease of Chakra 1 and 2 with C-3 due in a few years time is invaluable for training our submariners. We now have SSBNs coming out in series at last and will in time to come roll our our SSNs too.

It is only in strategic rocketry that we are truly indigenous with the Agni series of BMs , Prithvi, Shaurya, etc.Even Astra originally flew with an Ru seeker.
So let's take a positive view of the relationship.Ru has offered almost everything that we've required which we are unable to obtain from the West or develop ourselves within the required timeframe.These have also come at much lower cost than western equivalents. It has served us well in our past wars and current situ. We have also diversified our def suppliers including the US and Israel.

Our goal of greater indigenous systems is a tough goal to achieve.It can't be done overnight but has to be done incrementally in stages for which clear priorities need to be listed and a roadmap made to achieve the same, fully supported by the required finance and accountability by those in charge of critical programmes.The old DRDO culture will not do.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vivek K » 27 Jun 2019 09:32

Neither the LCA nor the Arjun nor the P17s nor the Arty guns under trials are 30-40 years behind the best. And a lot of stuff bought “fakes” being more advanced and then remains in their hangars/depots for want of spares or other items.

Every time we make a phoren purchase, indegenization is pushed back further. Today India has the capability to make every weapon - look at the short lead time in making the Arty guns. The Vikrant will be better than the Vikramaditya and the Shivaliks are acknowledged to be superior to the Talwars.

So this bogey of - we are poor and low tech so must buy imported does not cut any ice. Russia produces everything for Russian conditions- not to fight in Thar.

Bite the bullet - take the harder road of indigenous production that will uplift the country’s poor and herald true industrialization. Reject this false notion trying to mislead and push the country back to its knees. Economic well being lays the foundation for national security.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Mort Walker » 27 Jun 2019 09:48

Vivek K wrote:Neither the LCA nor the Arjun nor the P17s nor the Arty guns under trials are 30-40 years behind the best. And a lot of stuff bought “fakes” being more advanced and then remains in their hangars/depots for want of spares or other items.

Every time we make a phoren purchase, indegenization is pushed back further. Today India has the capability to make every weapon - look at the short lead time in making the Arty guns. The Vikrant will be better than the Vikramaditya and the Shivaliks are acknowledged to be superior to the Talwars.

So this bogey of - we are poor and low tech so must buy imported does not cut any ice. Russia produces everything for Russian conditions- not to fight in Thar.

Bite the bullet - take the harder road of indigenous production that will uplift the country’s poor and herald true industrialization. Reject this false notion trying to mislead and push the country back to its knees. Economic well being lays the foundation for national security.


I agree. Purchase of foreign weapon systems is a waste of the Indian taxpayer's money. Make in India no matter what. The idea that N-sub program would be in infancy is bunk. The Russians are prohibited by treaty to help India on reactor design. Russian subs are dangerous rusty underwater garbage scows that radiate like crazy and give away their position. India does not need them. The S-400 is a pipe dream which shall never work and have availability less than 25% of the time. Better to spend that money on indigenous air defense programs.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 27 Jun 2019 15:40

True that our naval corp of designers can design most types of warships.but pray what desi weapons are on our P-15 s? Nothing is desi barring the hull the sonars and some EW and miscellaneous items. Even the GTs are US.We heard a decade ago big talk about a naval variant of Kaveri.It has remained just that DRDO big talk..SAMs are Israeli JV and BMos an Ru JV.The gun is Italian, the ASW helos will be US, main radar Israeli and Dutch.It is only now that we've introduced desi heavweight torpedoes.A few electronic EW systems and chaff decoys desi.So let's not fool ourselves that we can simply do it all alone.Even BMos NG and BMos- H is being deveopled with Russia. The French over Rafal that we were unable to absorb all advanced tech. even if full TOT for the Rafale was given and refused to sign on and guarantee the quality of HAL built Rafales.

As I said before, the list of critical technology and weaponry reqd. must be listed in order of priority and realistically assessed, what we can accomplish ourselves , where we need help as in a JV and what needs to be at first an outright purchase.Secondly, desi programmes must have a deadline for development, trials and induction. Programmes cannot go on indefinitely for decades like Kaveri.Perhaps we need the old Sov. and US tactic of getting two desi entities to develop prototypes in parallel.Is is good to see that with the arty, it is happening.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vivek K » 27 Jun 2019 18:35

There we go again - completely missing the point of having the ability to design and buying off the shelf components.

One must be realistic and not pooh pooh domestic accomplishments - Shivaliks, LCA, Arjun, Vikrant, INSAS, Dhanush artillery guns, ATAGS. And look up the history of the Marut in 71. It was exactly this phoren loving attitude that killed local industry and had IAF buy the Jaguar instead of developing the Marut Mk1R.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby dinesh_kimar » 27 Jun 2019 20:08

Singha wrote: cross post from UK thread

When the japanese realized their leg, they proactively went out and learned as much as they could to haul themselves up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration


The Japanese have long studied the matter of Technology indigenisation, and have made practical steps to tackling it.

(Singha sahib has once again come close to the crux of the matter).

It is from them we learn that there are a no. of stages in it.

1. Acquisition of operations techniques

2. Maintenance of equipment

3. Repairs and minor modifications of equipment

4. Designing of equipment

5. Domestic manufacturing of equipment(self-reliance in technology)

In the 80s, there was a great thrust given to Maintenance in India, but sadly did not take off. ( Some colleges were offering M.tech in this field.)

The F-35 screwdriver giri with full depot level maintenance is to be seen in this context.


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