India-Russia: News & Analysis

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dinesh_kimar
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by dinesh_kimar »

Cain Marko wrote: They seemed to have been reliable enough in Syria, and their much maligned hardware including upgraded cold war designs like Tu22s and Fencers put up some very serious uptimes in a rather far away location. That kind of power projection can only be matched by the USA, nobody else.
If that's the case, why are these designs much maligned?

Why no one else use Tu-22 and Fencer, if it's such a big hit?

Even the third world like Egypt and Iraq have smartly disposed off their inventory. No repeat orders.

Where's the Russian single engine multirole fighter with High MTBF engines?

Why has the IAF ordered 920 AL-31 engines till date for approx. 230 Sukhois?

Their production and reliability is shitty. The recent news feature of S-400 manufacturing plant , I think by Nitin Gokale, looks like a geriatric German shopfloor from the 1980s.

Our BDL and DRDO facilities look better.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Yes,that'a why the services keep on buying Ru! :rotfl:

But seriously,the doctrine is very different, for example life hours for engines compared with the west,keeping in mind battle conditions,attrition rate ,etc. Secondly,some systems like Backfires have not been offered to anyone.A few years ago the PRC seemed v.keen,but eventually nothing happened ,Ru apparently said " nyet", and the RuAF are upgrading at least 40+ of the 100+ in stock. Many havr been in action in Syria ddevastating ISIS. Even the elderly TU-95/142 Bears will serve until 2040+,just like B-52s. Their immense range,endurance,arrival of new LRCMs,huge payload- v.useful for launching drone swarms, has given them extra longevity. IAF veterans rue the retirement of our Canberras bombers which could've been converted into tankers which we are short of now.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Cain Marko »

dinesh_kimar wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: They seemed to have been reliable enough in Syria, and their much maligned hardware including upgraded cold war designs like Tu22s and Fencers put up some very serious uptimes in a rather far away location. That kind of power projection can only be matched by the USA, nobody else.
If that's the case, why are these designs much maligned?
When used properly, they work. Point is that what the Russians managed in Syria was quite the feat. And they did it with enviable logistical support for platforms with very decent uptimes.
Why no one else use Tu-22 and Fencer, if it's such a big hit?
Who the hell has a need for such platforms in today's world? Maybe India can use the backfire, and the fencer is now being replaced by the su34.
Even the third world like Egypt and Iraq have smartly disposed off their inventory. No repeat orders.
Iraq is a US proxy now. but there are many ordering new Russian wares in a hurry. Including mig35s, su35s kilos etc. Why look far away, desh is ordering plenty... From AKs, luh, talwar to s400. Some are repeat orders and others are fresh.
Where's the Russian single engine multirole fighter with High MTBF engines?
Ask the Chinese. They use it on about 400 of their 4.5 gen fighters.
Their production and reliability is shitty. The recent news feature of S-400 manufacturing plant , I think by Nitin Gokale, looks like a geriatric German shopfloor from the 1980s.
[/quote]
That's why the things that come out of that shop floor are selling like hot cakes! From China to Saudi and turkey and India. Get your western glasses off, and you'll see that the world continues well enough without them.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 31 Oct 2020 11:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

It would be extremely unwise of anyone to draw reliability conclusions based on data from battlefield sorties.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan M »

dinesh_kimar wrote: Even the third world like Egypt and Iraq have smartly disposed off their inventory. No repeat orders.

Where's the Russian single engine multirole fighter with High MTBF engines?

Why has the IAF ordered 920 AL-31 engines till date for approx. 230 Sukhois?

Their production and reliability is shitty. The recent news feature of S-400 manufacturing plant , I think by Nitin Gokale, looks like a geriatric German shopfloor from the 1980s.

Our BDL and DRDO facilities look better.
Please do some basic research. The Egyptians are buying MiG35s. The Algerian military is full of Russian gear. Russian SAMs are popular throughout the Middle East as are their ATGMs let alone small arms.

I don't know which images you saw but the S400 plant is fairly modern. You must be the only person even on the internet who thinks that the S400 imagery indicates some lousy reliability or production quality. The Chinese, India, Greek, Turks have all procured the S3/400. Various ME countries are in discussions for variants. IAF ordered engines in advance to ensure that if Russia again had issues we wouldn't be caught without spares and could manage the lower TBO/TTL of the engines.

There was an extended period of time post the FSU breakup wherein Russian mfg and supply chain took a heavy hit. While Russian gear gas often been maintenance heavy their mature products are often quite reliable.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan M »

dinesh_kimar wrote: Stating the obvious : cash isn't the problem, their systems and products remain shitty. They don't have an improvement culture.

Eg.
- the Russians produced and sold 680 Su--27 aircraft,
- 630 Su-30,
- 270 Su- 30MKI + 20 Su 30 MKM, and
- 160 Su-30 MKK.

An obvious bonanza, but they didn't improve their aircraft industry, it's still not as high tech and reliable as the West.

The Gripen, for example, has better reliability than Russian aircraft, and it's not technologically out of reach for Russia.
We expect higher quality posts. Spend some time on the topic. Don't just make off hand comments based on your personal perceptions etc.

"The Russians don't have an improvement culture". Yeah sure. So thats why there is S300 PS/PT, PMU1/2, S400 and now S500. The new S300V variant. And the S350, the Buk, Pantsir variants rapidly introduced on the basis of combat deployment. "The aircraft industry is still not as high tech and reliable as the west"..err, they have a quasi 5G platform in tests which when it matures would be superior to all the Eurocanards in service. None if the Euro countries have an eqvt at a similar stage. The modernized Su35 like the F15, can give a tough account of it itself vs most of the Eurocanards. Its key issue is its opex. Anyways IAF has enough Flankers and would seek.supploer diversity too.

The only new aircraft superior to the Su57 would be the US F-35, bar the F22 and that too there may be areas the Russian aircraft has some edge.

Where exactly do you think cash isn't a problem? ? It's their biggest issue. They have to prioritize and tactical weapons aren't a priority bar those which are more export ready. This us a key reason IAF chose Rafale over Su57. They wanted a mature product already funded and in service not a testbed where they'd have to keep investing to get it ready asap.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Karan M wrote:
dinesh_kimar wrote: Even the third world like Egypt and Iraq have smartly disposed off their inventory. No repeat orders.

Where's the Russian single engine multirole fighter with High MTBF engines?

Why has the IAF ordered 920 AL-31 engines till date for approx. 230 Sukhois?

Their production and reliability is shitty. The recent news feature of S-400 manufacturing plant , I think by Nitin Gokale, looks like a geriatric German shopfloor from the 1980s.

Our BDL and DRDO facilities look better.
Please do some basic research. The Egyptians are buying MiG35s. The Algerian military is full of Russian gear. Russian SAMs are popular throughout the Middle East as are their ATGMs let alone small arms.

I don't know which images you saw but the S400 plant is fairly modern. You must be the only person even on the internet who thinks that the S400 imagery indicates some lousy reliability or production quality. The Chinese, India, Greek, Turks have all procured the S3/400. Various ME countries are in discussions for variants. IAF ordered engines in advance to ensure that if Russia again had issues we wouldn't be caught without spares and could manage the lower TBO/TTL of the engines.

There was an extended period of time post the FSU breakup wherein Russian mfg and supply chain took a heavy hit. While Russian gear gas often been maintenance heavy their mature products are often quite reliable.

+108

Russian stuff is generally good and reliable.

factors like hygiene and inadequate handling precautions by unionized desi workers on the factory floor are the most common causes of reliability issues and unscheduled shop visits.

go and checkout any maruti dealer workshop and then checkout a BMW dealer workshop in the same city and it will be easy to understand
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

dinesh_kimar wrote:
The Gripen, for example, has better reliability than Russian aircraft, and it's not technologically out of reach for Russia.

Cash and sales are not the problem, the Russians are highly corrupt, each Billion in sales probably gets eaten away quickly, and they cannot improve their country much.
How do you know the relative reliability of Grippen and Su when it can only be known from systematic intelligence data. But continue to fantasize and live in your own virtual world. :lol: Unfortunately, due to Anglo-Saxon arrogance, there are very few balanced English-speaking reporting from Russia about the simple everyday life of large Russian cities, where 80% of the population lives. The biased video sequence, including filming from the backward villages of Siberia, forms a picture that is convenient for fake visionaries like you. Instead repeating the well known Anglo-Saxon political mythology better watch the report of this honest British journalist about Moscow, maybe something will change in your mood.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by pandyan »

Igorr ji - one problem i notice is lack of people-people interaction between indians and russians. Whereas, in almost all western countries, there is a large population of Indian professionals and vice versa. When I was growing up, SU was viewed as a good friend and source of great math and physics books. Today, I think Russia is viewed mainly as a provider of military wares. Problems with Aircraft Carrier tarnished the image quite a bit.

The quoted poster also once claimed that Mig21 landing speed is 700KM/h :mrgreen:
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by nandakumar »

pandyan wrote:Igorr ji - one problem i notice is lack of people-people interaction between indians and russians. Whereas, in almost all western countries, there is a large population of Indian professionals and vice versa. When I was growing up, SU was viewed as a good friend and source of great math and physics books. Today, I think Russia is viewed mainly as a provider of military wares. Problems with Aircraft Carrier tarnished the image quite a bit.

The quoted poster also once claimed that Mig21 landing speed is 700KM/h :mrgreen:
I completely agree. Russia missed a trick by not nurturing and sustaining existing links created by Soviet Union. At least so far as India is concerned. Granted that the first couple of years after the break up of Soviet Union were difficult years for Russia. But Russia could have easily caught up thereafter. I mean, how much would it have cost Russia to keep the Tal Chess Club in Chennai going? A club that not only produced a World Chess Champion in Viswanathan Anand but countless IM norm players.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Dilbu »

Prospective Russia-China military alliance can impact Delhi-Moscow ties: Top Russian expert
NEW DELHI: Top Russian foreign policy and strategic affairs experts have opined that a prospective military alliance between Moscow and Beijing would adversely impact traditional partnership with India and is therefore impractical. Russian President Vladimir Putin had recently speculated that a military alliance between Moscow and China is possible, although both sides "in general" have no need for it.

Signing formal military alliance with China would be impractical for Russia, it will tie Russia’s hands and force other traditional partners of Russia, India in particular, to cooperate closer with the US, according to Carnegie Moscow Center director Dmitry Trenin.
"Russia has no need to strike a formal military alliance with China against the United States now. Such union would tie hands of both parties, and would scare the neighbors, India in particular, who would be forced to abandon partnership with Russia and cooperate closer with the US," Trenin pointed out, reported Russian official news agency Itar Tass.

Besides, a formal alliance would raise question of hierarchy within the allied structures. According to Trenin a true military alliance of Russia and China would be feasible only in case of the US attack on both countries at the same time.

"It is possible to speculate that, in case of the US’s [military] aggression against Russia, China, while supporting Russia politically, would refrain from taking part in the war. In my opinion, this is exactly how [we] should react to a military clash between the US and China, which seems to become more and more probable," the expert said.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by darshhan »

Anybody who says Russia doesn't produce quality stuff is smoking quality stuff. From S-400/500 to formidable submarines(both nuclear and conventional) to fighter aircraft(sukhoi and mikoyan) to infantry weapons like RPGs, most feared RPO shmel and ofcourse the ever popular kalashnikovs. Those who have been at the other end of these weapons will testify like Americans in vietnam war and isis in syria. Their lot of capabilities are also unknown to many like their impressive Electronic warfare capabilities which have been effectively put to use in both Ukraine and Syria. In fact now most of their tactical weapons are heavily battle tested.

Yes the decade of 90's was very turbulent phase for them. Their military industrial complex had to undergo a rebuilding phase which is still an ongoing process. Do also keep in perspective that their budgets for R&D would be a fraction of that of US. In some areas they are behind NATO countries like Jet engines or leveraging information and communication technologies in warfare. But overall they are good.

Their problem doesn't lie in military R&D/production. Their main issue is having children to stave off a possible demographic collapse. Manufacturing weapons is easy for them. On the other hand creating babies is a challenge. This assumes even more importance if you see the percentage of muslims in Russia which is more than 20% now. I.e more than India
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

There was a recent list of the world's 40 best subs by sub expert Sutton. Top 6.
1.Ohio with a massive 140+ missiles.
2.Yasen-2. 72 missiles,etc.
3.Oscar-2 with 50+,100 planned.
4.Seawolf.
5.Akula-2
5.Sierra-2.

In the conv.AIP list further down the order, rankings were given according to no. of weaponry carried. I am a bit puzzled by this system as some heavy load carriers may be quite noisy,like the Collins class of Oz. I suppose it could be better called the most "powerful" subs. Bunched together inthe 24/27 etc. where current favourite types like Kilos,Lada,etc. U-boats and Scorpenes lower becos of smaller payloads.,

But Putin's latest strat. weapons revealed last year,the UW nuclear torpedo,Avantgarde missile, hypersonic LRCMs, etc. show that Russia has a crucial lead in some cutting edge weaponry.
Only the uninformed will write off Ru weaponry.Read veteran expert Peter Butowski too onthe most dangerous Ru aircraft.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Dilbu »

Russia fulfills India`s defence requirements list handed over in June
New Delhi: Russia has fulfilled requirements related to India's defence equipment list handed over in the month of June. Sources confirming the development said that India’s defence requirements included light guns, projectiles, bombs.


A number of contracts were signed during the summer to implement the Indian requirement. While the status of the shipment is not known yet, the requirement was by March 2021.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

nandakumar wrote: Russia missed a trick by not nurturing and sustaining existing links created by Soviet Union. At least so far as India is concerned. Granted that the first couple of years after the break up of Soviet Union were difficult years for Russia. But Russia could have easily caught up thereafter.
Yes. I completely agree that Russia's activity towards India has been sluggish. Suffice it to compare the number of Putin's meetings with Merkel and that of him with Indian leaders. I think that the reason is the underestimation of the prospects for India's position in the new century World and the traditional Eurocentrism of politics, which has not vanished until now. However, one can see also problems on the Indian side of the field. So, despite the fact that Russia has always supported India's position on the Kashmir issue (I remember that on all the maps, back in school, we learned that Kashmir is a completely Indian state, partially occupied by Pakistan), Delhi still hesitates to recognize Russian Crimea . If I'm wrong, let them correct me. I think the solution is for media figures in Russia and India to more actively lobbying for the accelerated development of mutual cooperation between two states.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

Well - Igorr, Russia needs to define and frame its engagement with China and Pakistan better. The JF-17 flies on Russian engines and China is provided latest Russian hardware - S-400, Su-30/35. India has been loyal to Russia longer than any other nation. The Gorshkov deal and the Mig-29ks deal was handled very poorly. I'm sure that India also made mistakes. So there should be a meeting to sort out issues and correct the future partnership.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

It makes complete sense for Putin to concentrate on the EU and China as both have significantly more trade with Russia than India. In fact, I believe Russia has more trade with the US than with India. India-Russia trade in 2019 was less than $10 billion/annually. There was some talk to get it $30 billion/annually by 2025, but remains to be seen.

Waxing nostalgic about the past means little now. Cooperating yes, but anything more than that doesn't bring any benefit.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

Exactly - just like blaming the Gorshkov fiasco on Indian negotiating does not help the relationship.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

Vivek K wrote:Well - Igorr, Russia needs to define and frame its engagement with China and Pakistan better. The JF-17 flies on Russian engines and China is provided latest Russian hardware - S-400, Su-30/35. India has been loyal to Russia longer than any other nation. The Gorshkov deal and the Mig-29ks deal was handled very poorly. I'm sure that India also made mistakes. So there should be a meeting to sort out issues and correct the future partnership.
80% of China's military technology has Western roots, which nowhere interfere the Indo-US bonhomie . In electronics, there is is 100% core American technology and American training of Chinese students. The United States continues to be the main source of high-tech knowledge and skills for China, despite Trump's high-flown words. Your American friends have trained hundreds of thousands of Chinese specialists on their territory, and they sell electronic components to China for 100 times more than for India and Russia together. They sell China all the most advanced chips, which they never sold to Russia, for example. I'm not even talking about the scale of US military cooperation with Pakistan. Do you want Russia to not even sell engines to China? This is not serious.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by m_saini »

Igorr wrote:80% of China's military technology has Western roots, which nowhere interfere the Indo-US bonhomie . In electronics, there is is 100% core American technology and American training of Chinese students. The United States continues to be the main source of high-tech knowledge and skills for China, despite Trump's high-flown words. Your American friends have trained hundreds of thousands of Chinese specialists on their territory, and they sell electronic components to China for 100 times more than for India and Russia together. They sell China all the most advanced chips, which they never sold to Russia, for example. I'm not even talking about the scale of US military cooperation with Pakistan. Do you want Russia to not even sell engines to China? This is not serious.
This is true. US is far more responsible for cheen being what it is today than any of the Russian engines.

And if we feel cheated in the relationship with Russia, then the fault lies with us. Nobody forced us to buy the Russian "junk" weapons. Actually Russia was the only one willing to help when our leaders were busy with their "world's spiritual leader" and "non-aligned" wet-dreams. We were/are never fully aligned with the Russians for the to treat us like an actual ally. Just seems like we want to maintain our neutrality and still want to be treated like a god.

We feel no need to bad-mouth the French or the swedish or the US for selling weapons to the pukis so why place the blame solely on Russians? I feel that's very unjustified.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by titash »

Vivek K wrote:Well - Igorr, Russia needs to define and frame its engagement with China and Pakistan better. The JF-17 flies on Russian engines and China is provided latest Russian hardware - S-400, Su-30/35. India has been loyal to Russia longer than any other nation. The Gorshkov deal and the Mig-29ks deal was handled very poorly. I'm sure that India also made mistakes. So there should be a meeting to sort out issues and correct the future partnership.
I broadly agree with Igorr here. All countries have permanent interests and not permanent friends or allies.

India & Russia:
(1) do not share common borders and have no territorial disputes
(2) unlike the RoP'ers, India's largely dharmic population feels no need to conquer and convert other people whom we come in contact with - ergo, Indians largely have mutually beneficial engagements with other folks including Russians
(3) India is a large market for defense goods thanks to its neighbors

Overall, India and Russia will always maintain a decent harmonious relationship that can be tempered by political skulduggery and irritants like the RD-33 sales to Pakistan and Su-30/35 sales to China and the Gorshkov (business related) issues

We have to accept that the cold war is over, China is a new superpower in town, and both us and the Russians will play the game to further our permanent interests. No need to get emotional.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Prem »

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... r-BB1aJUIB
Vladimir Putin will quit in January amid fears he has Parkinson's disease, Moscow sources have claimed.
The 68-year-old strongman president of Russia is being urged to retire by his former gymnast lover Alina Kabaeva, 37, insiders say.
Recent footage of Putin's legs moving around as he gripped onto the armrest of a chair have raised eyebrows.
Eyes are also drawn to a twitching pen in the former KGB operative's fingers and a cup which analysts told The Sun was filled with painkillers.Earlier this week it emerged that unexpected legislation was being rushed through to ensure that Putin could be made a senator-for-life.Others have previously noted his 'gunslinger's gait' – a clearly reduced right arm swing compared to his left, giving him a lilting swagger.
An asymmetrically reduced arm swing is a classic feature of Parkinson's and can manifest in 'clinically intact subjects with a predisposition to later develop' the disease, according to the British Medical Journal.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vips »

If this is true then the postponed Modi-Putin meet in India will not happen and the deal to manufacture (assemble) AK 203 rifles in India will be delayed further.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vips »

First Turkey shoots down a Russian warjet and openly threatens it against further escalation and now Azerbaijan treats Russia with contempt after shooting down its chopper. What next for Russia - Tuvalu giving it a few jhapads? :lol:

Imagine the dire straits Russia will be in when China openly starts encroaching and occupying its eastern territories and mineral rich Siberia. Russia's position right now is akin to worse then what was of Bahadur Shah Zafar during the British Rule. The emperor is naked behind the flashy gown :rotfl:
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by darshhan »

Prem wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pu ... r-BB1aJUIB
Vladimir Putin will quit in January amid fears he has Parkinson's disease, Moscow sources have claimed.
The 68-year-old strongman president of Russia is being urged to retire by his former gymnast lover Alina Kabaeva, 37, insiders say.
Recent footage of Putin's legs moving around as he gripped onto the armrest of a chair have raised eyebrows.
Eyes are also drawn to a twitching pen in the former KGB operative's fingers and a cup which analysts told The Sun was filled with painkillers.Earlier this week it emerged that unexpected legislation was being rushed through to ensure that Putin could be made a senator-for-life.Others have previously noted his 'gunslinger's gait' – a clearly reduced right arm swing compared to his left, giving him a lilting swagger.
An asymmetrically reduced arm swing is a classic feature of Parkinson's and can manifest in 'clinically intact subjects with a predisposition to later develop' the disease, according to the British Medical Journal.
Deep state article. Yes he is 68 yeas article and will obviously not be the same as he was 20 years earlier but this article is stretching things too far.

Maybe Putin saheb can consider a stint at patanjali yoga center at Hardwar or Bihar school of yoga at Munger for general health benefits. Also Indian style vegetarian food along with cutting of meat from diet would give him lot of physical benefits.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Cyrano »

During the 80s, copies of a Russian current affairs magazine in English called "Soviet Union" and a children's magazine called "Misha" were distributed free in schools for some years - not sure by whom, and at some point around 87/88 they disappeared mysteriously without a trace. Both propaganda rags but interesting reading. One could also find some communist eulogy literature in bookshops at that time, that too vanished.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by S_Madhukar »

Yup I remember Misha - saw some old ones in my local library in the 90s ... print quality was surprisingly good and some of it quite good but never thought of it as a commie propaganda as I was just 10-11 years old.. I felt proud I was reading something non-American ...those were the days ;-)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan M »

Misha had amazing production standards. There was a Russian book house in most cities where you could get these mags.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Dilbu »

Blow to China, Pakistan as Russia backs India at SCO meet
New Delhi: Russia has come out in support of India noting that bilateral matters should not be raised at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) forum. The development comes after Pakistan attempted to raise India-Pakistan matters at the virtual meet.

The Russian Deputy Envoy to Delhi, Roman N Babushkin, in response to a question by WION, said, "This is a part of SCO charter and SCO basic documents not to bring the bilateral issue into the agenda. It has been made clear to all members states that it should be avoided...for the sake of the progress of multilateral cooperation."
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

S_Madhukar wrote:Yup I remember Misha - saw some old ones in my local library in the 90s ... print quality was surprisingly good and some of it quite good but never thought of it as a commie propaganda as I was just 10-11 years old.. I felt proud I was reading something non-American ...those were the days ;-)
I also read something as a child: in the USSR it was officially possible to buy the American magazine 'America' in Russian. I, too, did not understand then that this was pure imperialist propaganda, 'hybrid war device' and 'fake news' in current terminology. I really enjoyed reading it and it was a very interesting magazine. Just in the late 80s, he also disappeared from the shelves, apparently the funds for anti-Soviet propaganda ran out haha. In fact, these magazines were published as part of the Helsinki agreements on human rights. All gonna its end, even cold wars.
darshhan wrote:
Deep state article. ..
Exactly! To distract attention from Biden's rather precarious health, they invent flashy media stories about Putin. 'Fake news' at its most naked, in my opinion.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by g.sarkar »

https://thediplomat.com/2020/12/india-r ... e-trouble/
India-Russia Relations Face More Trouble
India and Russia cancelled their annual summit for the first time in two decades. Is China the reason why?
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan, December 31, 2020

India and Russia have gone through several ups and downs in their decades-old bilateral relationship. The two appear at present to be going through a tricky phase. The two-decade old India-Russia annual summit was cancelled for the first time. A news report in India suggested that the postponement was the result of “severe reservations on New Delhi joining the Indo-Pacific initiative and Quad.” India’s Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) spokesperson responded by saying, “The India-Russia Annual Summit did not take place in 2020 because of the COVID pandemic. This was a mutually agreed decision between the two Governments. Any imputation otherwise is false and misleading. Spreading false stories on important relationships is particularly irresponsible.” The Russian side also responded with a statement saying that it is in “close touch” with its counterparts in India to finalize new dates for the summit, “postponed due to epidemiological reasons.”
But such denials are unlikely to entirely remove speculation about the state of bilateral relations, especially considering that India has taken part in a large number of bilateral and multilateral talks virtually, even if the pandemic has prevented physical meetings.
Moreover, overall speculation about difficulties in the relationship is not exactly new. There has been a lot of it, especially because of comments from senior Russian officials, such as Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, on India’s Quad and Indo-Pacific policy. Russian officials have repeatedly criticized the idea of the Indo-Pacific and the Quad, arguing that it is meant to contain China. Lavrov publicly stated so at the annual Raisina Dialogue in New Delhi in January 2020. More recently, Lavrov returned to the theme, saying at the general meeting of the Russian International Affairs Council in Moscow on December 8 that “India is currently an object of the Western countries’ persistent, aggressive and devious policy as they are trying to engage it in anti-China games by promoting Indo-Pacific strategies, the so-called ‘Quad’ while at the same time the West is attempting to undermine our close partnership and privileged relations with India.”
Indian officials and public commentators are increasingly miffed at this lack of sensitivity to Indian concerns about China, especially coming after China’s intrusion in Ladakh this year, which led to a bloody clash and Indian casualties. Even the normally cautious Indian foreign ministry was forced to respond, with the MEA spokesperson stating that India has always had an independent foreign policy based on its own national interests, that India’s Indo-Pacific approach was not directed at any particular country, and that India stands for a free, open and inclusive Indo-Pacific. He also added, for good measure, that “India’s relationship with each country is independent of its relations with third countries. We hope that this is well understood and appreciated by all our partners.”
All of this is coming at a time when the India-China relationship is in one of its worst phases. India’s External Affairs Minister Dr. S Jaishankar while speaking at an Australian think tank, the Lowy Institute, commented that India and China are “at the most difficult phase of our relationship” in the last three or four decades and that the relations between the two were “very significantly damaged” over the past year.
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Gautam
Mukesh.Kumar
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

Igorr wrote:
nandakumar wrote: Russia missed a trick by not nurturing and sustaining existing links created by Soviet Union. At least so far as India is concerned. Granted that the first couple of years after the break up of Soviet Union were difficult years for Russia. But Russia could have easily caught up thereafter.
Yes. I completely agree that Russia's activity towards India has been sluggish. Suffice it to compare the number of Putin's meetings with Merkel and that of him with Indian leaders. I think that the reason is the underestimation of the prospects for India's position in the new century World and the traditional Eurocentrism of politics, which has not vanished until now. However, one can see also problems on the Indian side of the field. So, despite the fact that Russia has always supported India's position on the Kashmir issue (I remember that on all the maps, back in school, we learned that Kashmir is a completely Indian state, partially occupied by Pakistan), Delhi still hesitates to recognize Russian Crimea . If I'm wrong, let them correct me. I think the solution is for media figures in Russia and India to more actively lobbying for the accelerated development of mutual cooperation between two states.
Privet Igorr-ji and Snovym Godom.

I believe that somewhere, we have lost the plot. Russia and India, are both natural allies, both countries with a fairly heterogenous population mix, being held together by a strong Center. Both countries have what I would losely term as a "Big Country Phillosophy", and at least for the next fifty years no territorial conflict. It's unfortunate that lack of imagination- vision among our leaders, language barriers (more from Anglophile Indians) and racism (let's face it in general Indians are not so well looked at by Russians) has hampered our ties.

We can be natural allies. But this does not mean a thing if it's talk of defence co-operation or energy resources or movies. That does not touch lives of individuals on a day to day basis. We really need to build more trade. Top of my head these are areas we could capitalize on:
  1. Russia has water and land, which indians die for. People emigrate to Canada and Italy for land. You have a problem in the Far East with Chinese coming in. Why not offer Residency and possibility of furute citizenship to farmers from India to farm.
  2. Import food stuff and allow Indian FMCG firms to operate in Russia. You reduce reliance on getting apples from Poland and you build a caucus of Indian groups aligned with Russia interests
  3. What about Auto? Why not have joint ventures? Royale Enfield, Tata's, Mahindra
  4. What about Russian private shipyards building shipyards in India. Make In India, pseudo access to warm water ports
  5. Whether it's Moscow State or other Universities, Russia still has significant IP edge in many areas. What about tie-ups with Indian educational institutes?
I am sure we can find many more areas. We both need allies, the Russian Duscha and Indian Atma aren't that different, time we overcame corporeal differences.

P.S. I hope you don't mind the comment on racisim. It's a reality, especially among the younger generation. This from someone who's travelled in Russia and has had a SHQ, who even forced me to nebullize with 'kartoshka' when I got infleunza
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by kit »

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Igorr wrote: Yes. I completely agree that Russia's activity towards India has been sluggish. Suffice it to compare the number of Putin's meetings with Merkel and that of him with Indian leaders.
We can be natural allies. But this does not mean a thing if it's talk of defence co-operation or energy resources or movies. That does not touch lives of individuals on a day to day basis. We really need to build more trade. Top of my head these are areas we could capitalize on:
  1. Russia has water and land, which indians die for. People emigrate to Canada and Italy for land. You have a problem in the Far East with Chinese coming in. Why not offer Residency and possibility of furute citizenship to farmers from India to farm.
  2. Import food stuff and allow Indian FMCG firms to operate in Russia. You reduce reliance on getting apples from Poland and you build a caucus of Indian groups aligned with Russia interests
  3. What about Auto? Why not have joint ventures? Royale Enfield, Tata's, Mahindra
  4. What about Russian private shipyards building shipyards in India. Make In India, pseudo access to warm water ports
  5. Whether it's Moscow State or other Universities, Russia still has significant IP edge in many areas. What about tie-ups with Indian educational institutes?
I am sure we can find many more areas. We both need allies, the Russian Duscha and Indian Atma aren't that different, time we overcame corporeal differences.
I agree that Russia and India are indeed natural allies., but its geopolitics and relations with other powers that come in the way esp with the USA. Increasingly WATER, Oil, natural resources and scientific expertise ( less so) are important to India., having said that Russian economy now runs in fiefdoms literally under the control of some people and are not driven by market policies., the long term gain seems to be less significant to the short term gains which is derived from the Chinese association. Russia probably needs to set its house in order before the Chinese swamp it ! Politically driven compulsions can only go so much on the economic front., its the companies that need to look up and use the benefits , maybe some expos of indian companies in Russia and vice versa could make aware of the opportunities that are increasingly available in the subcontinent , with some political blessing India could replace China as a benign influence rather than a malign one on the Russian economy.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

Russia is a far more stable nation today than the great US ofA!
There,a virtual civil war is at hand with the nation completely polarised.Biden's victory could well turn out to be a pyrrhic one.
It has untapped mineral and energy wealth for a millenium,and the warming of the Arctic Sea is opening up another huge resource.
It has low debt, a v.high technological base- see the revolutionary weapon systems being introduced,first hypersonic weapons anywhere, and a leader whom the overwhelming majority of the nation support.

True,there are problems, an economy that has to weather western sanctions,but has not succumbed at all.Even Iran has made much military progress after being denied western tech and finance.
As they say," neccessity is the mother of invention" and Russia simply cannot be stopped. Under Putin,a resurgence of Russia in international affairs has appeared,especially in the MEast where ISIS was tamed ,and it is reinforcing its presence in the Meditt. at Tartus. The Crimea returned to its motherland,the UKR crisis is relatively calm and a wedge has been driven between Turkey and the US over S-400 sales. Its relations with the PRC are currently good,but if the west relents, and cooperation resumes between the two, Russo-Sino relations will retract

The first CV vaccine was the Sputnik-5,part of it being used in the Oxford one too,while the Chin one has internationally bit the dust.
CV in Russia has not deteriorated to the extent as it has in the UK,which is reeling from the renewed onslaught.I spoke to a close friend recently who said that it has surpassed the highest levels of May last yr.

Indo-Russo relations remain strong at the respective govt. levels,but culturally a lot more happened during the Sov. era. More cultural troupes visited,much appreciated by our people,who retain much goodwill for the Russian people and likewise from them.If you meet a Russian abroad, the chances are strong that old Raj Kapoor numbers will be sung! More people-to-people relations are reqd. Life after all isn't all about govt. arms deals but enjoying the fine things of life and Russian culture has much to enjoy.Its music,literature,food, and its great cultural heritage mostly intact despite WW2.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Y. Kanan »

m_saini wrote:this is true. US is far more responsible for cheen being what it is today than any of the Russian engines.

And if we feel cheated in the relationship with Russia, then the fault lies with us. Nobody forced us to buy the Russian "junk" weapons. Actually Russia was the only one willing to help when our leaders were busy with their "world's spiritual leader" and "non-aligned" wet-dreams. We were/are never fully aligned with the Russians for the to treat us like an actual ally. Just seems like we want to maintain our neutrality and still want to be treated like a god.

We feel no need to bad-mouth the French or the swedish or the US for selling weapons to the pukis so why place the blame solely on Russians? I feel that's very unjustified.
Basically, the Russians figured out we're a sh*tty ally. Appeasing us is not worth sabotaging their relations with China. It's difficult to fault them for that; we would do the same (see: Iran).
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rudradev »

I look forward to witnessing the continuous, deliberate, high-intensity battering Russia will be receiving (across multiple fronts) from the incoming Biden administration, throughout the next four years at least.

I actually wanted the Republicans to win, and don't expect nearly anything good out of a Democrat regime in Washington. Except for this: the Democrats see themselves as having a score to settle with the Kremlin, need to focus on an external enemy to unite as much of the US populace behind them as they can, and have always been inveterately anti-Russia anyway. So they will pull out all the stops this time.

I am really going to enjoy this.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Pratyush »

^^^ the net effect of this will be to push the Russia into an embrace of PRC. Net net PRC will be winners.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Philip »

The army chief Gen.Nav. said that all issues with the AK-203 deal have been ironed out and hoped it would be sealed soon.
The cost of an AK-203 less than 70K, compared with 89K for a US equiv. Kalashnikv's royalty will be 6,000/- per rifle. The keyfactor is total TOT which will enable the OFB to manufacture various other infantry weapons.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rudradev »

Pratyush ji,

I think that has been comprehensively disproved over the past 5 years.

In 2016 the conventional wisdom was:
1) Trump is as pro-Russia as any leader of the US can ever be;
2) Trump is also more anti-China than any other President since the 1970s;
3) Because Trump will go easy on Russia & be tough on China, Putin will get some breathing room and strategic space. He will not be so China-dependent, and even if he doesn't become pro-West, he can at least maintain balance and allow Russia to emerge as a distinct geostrategic pole equidistant from both China and the US;
4) Net net, a more multipolar world which is good for India & allows more space for India to emerge as a global pole in her own right (as opposed to forcing India to choose sides).

It didn't happen. Trump WAS indeed more favourable to Russia than any President since Roosevelt. But Putin responded by crawling up the backside of Xi & nestling there with all the self-respect of a Pakistani.

People say India didn't do enough to try and assuage Russia's concerns. Really?

Just look at the number of times Modi tried to make overtures of cooperation with Beijing.

Right after Modi became PM, Xi was invited for a summit. Immediately came a PLA intrusion in Demchok. This was followed by a PLA-sponsored coup in the Maldives. And then Doklam.

Now whatever people accuse Modi of, he is not a fool. He had the pulse of Xi very well by this point. He knew the man was a megalomaniac Han supremacist who would never, ever stop attacking and undermining India... no matter what avenues of mutually beneficial relations India might suggest, they would all be met with rebuffs & backstabbing.

And yet. Despite NOT being a fool, after all this Modi tries again... inviting Xi to Mamallapuram.

Why did he do this? Obviously not hoping to change CCP's heart & mind. The reason was to provide Russia with a demonstration of good faith that India...despite ALL the Chinese aggression & treachery in recent years... had STILL not gone 'all in' with the US-led Quad. That we were still prepared to give Sisupala an opening for rapprochement, to keep alive the vision of multipolarity & SCO solidarity so dear to Moscow's heart.

And what did we get for the show of good faith? Galwan, Pangong Tso, and a scenario of more intensive PLA-TSPA coordination than at any time in the past. Fortunately we were quite prepared.

Meanwhile for its own part Russia has followed China's lead in international diplomacy to a "T" (despite a pro-Russia, anti-China Trump in the White House).

Towards India, Russia has done the bare minimum to avoid losing New Delhi altogether as a cash-paying, 100% transactional arms buyer. The net result of this purely mercantile relationship has been to retard India's drive towards indigenization.

Apart from that the Russians have made every effort to cultivate Pakistan & Turkey while collaborating fully with Pak-Chinese machinations to deny India any strategic space in Afghanistan. In the Kremlin as in South Block, it is clear that any hint of a strategic "special relationship" between Moscow & New Delhi is ancient history. And that is entirely thanks to Putin's decision to service Xi's every whim with the wretched complicity of a TSPA jarnail.

So this business of "Democrats acting against Russia will force Moscow into Beijing's arms" stands completely discredited by the evidence of the past 4 years. Despite facing relatively little pressure from Trump, Russia has very willingly jumped not just into China's arms but China's bed. So let them get f****d.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by vimal »

Philip wrote:The army chief Gen.Nav. said that all issues with the AK-203 deal have been ironed out and hoped it would be sealed soon.
The cost of an AK-203 less than 70K, compared with 89K for a US equiv. Kalashnikv's royalty will be 6,000/- per rifle. The keyfactor is total TOT which will enable the OFB to manufacture various other infantry weapons.
Can it fire laser or plasma ?
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