India-Russia: News & Analysis

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Parasu » 20 Feb 2018 16:42

Russia's main concern in Afghanistan is that Islamic jihadism does not enter into its territory and sphere of influence through the soft underbelly of (Muslim) Central Asia.Stability in Afghanistan is essential.

Not true. The primary concern of China, Iran and Russia is the US military base in Central Asia. Jihadism is secondary concern. Otherwise why would Russia get together with Pakistan, the mother of all ills in Afghanistan.
Unfortunately we seem to be hitching our wagon to a fading superpower in the Indo- Pacific region, the US which has totally lost the plot in the ME, especially over Syria, where the Russians taught it a signal lesson in the application of military force to defeat ISIS anc humiliate UX diplomacy. We funnily see more Indian diplomatic activity with the US hoping that it will pull our chestnuts out of the fire vis a vis China and Pak despite the evidence before our eyes of US decline and appear to have forgotten or deliberately ignored Russia which stood by us for decades allowing us to dismember Pak into two.As the hostility between the US and China grows, Russo-Sino relations get warmer.

Hitching our wagon is strong and wrong phrase. But correct policy by India. Since Russia is getting cosier with China (India is not the reason), Desh sees US as a better bet.
This is an inescapable fact.We must also realise that if we want to woo the US to the detriment of our relationship with Russia, viewing the security of the rdgion thriugh Yanqui made spectacles,closer ties between it and Pak are inevitable.However, these ties as one can see are limited to the Afg.theatre.

We are seeing the region and world through our lens onlee. Its the Russians who are trying to play zero sum games with us. Strategic convergence with US was gonna happen because Russia was getting closer to China anyway. These ties wont be limited in the Afghan theatre either. This is wishful thinking.
In the ultimate analysis we should take a good hard look at history and see how the US let down its bum-chums time and time again.From Vietnam to the Phillippines to Iran to Iraq to Panama and now to its Sunni Arab allies in the ME .The Kurds ard getting yet another lesson in betrayal from the US.Above all Pak which relied so much on the US in '71 got shafted because Nixon and Kissinger could not risk a spat with Russia which warned them against any action against us! Our current diplomacy which is trying to be all things to all nations has its limitations.

Everyone shafts everyone else. It is Russia doing more of the betrayal to the Kurds in Syria. It was Russia that betrayed its communist allies in Afghanistan by withdrawing. Betrayed India in 1962 by calling how India and Chinese are brothers. So evil Amreeka and nice Russia is not actually true. Putin needs to decide whether India is valued enough a friend or not.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Parasu » 20 Feb 2018 21:49

Paki foreign minister is in Russia on the invitation of Lavrov.
Foreign minister of Pakiland says in news conference that Russia wants to enhance trade and defence ties with the country in Moscow.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 20 Feb 2018 22:50

Have you forgotten '71 and who protected our backs both from the US and China? Secondly , who has provided us with the key cutting edge weapons and tech that give us the qualitative edge still with both our enemies? Would our SSBN programmd have sicceeded without Ru help? Read what our former chiefs and sr. officers have said about the Indo- Russiam mil
relationship that has served us so well for ddcades.The Kurds have been repeatedly backstabbed by the US from the time that they allowed him to gas them, with chemicals sold to them by the global chem warfare experys thd Germans!

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Viv S » 20 Feb 2018 23:41

Philip wrote:Have you forgotten '71 and who protected our backs both from the US and China?

Hmm.. lets see. The Chinese were foxed by the timing of the war, which was delayed by Manekshaw to Nov-Dec to, among other things, ensure that the Himalayan mountain passes were impassable. The US meanwhile was neck-deep in the Vietnam war, hundreds of troops were dying every month (over 6,000 in 1970) and anti-war protests in the country had peaked. Gunboat diplomacy aside, there was absolutely no political will to actually start another war in Asia, this time against a democratic nation and member of the commonwealth (unlike the commie North Vietnam).

Secondly , who has provided us with the key cutting edge weapons and tech that give us the qualitative edge still with both our enemies?

Same ones who provided China with key cutting edge weapons? The Su-27s, Su-30MKs, Kilo-636s, Sovremennys, S-300s, etc. were superior to anything in India's Russian arsenal, and marked the start of the erosion of India's qualitative edge, which today is pretty much all gone.

Would our SSBN programmd have sicceeded without Ru help?

Well, the powerplant is indigenous and India had gained some production experience through the U-209 project, so yes, its quite possible. Meanwhile India's MBT & AFV projects would have thrived.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 21 Feb 2018 03:25

We were offered all this, got them first and more, long before the Chinese who never got the top line models.Offered Backfires 3 decades ago, a fleet of SSNs, etc. ,and now their best bird the FGFA.Our mistake if we don't take our opportunties and others do.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Viv S » 21 Feb 2018 03:49

Philip wrote:We were offered all this, got them first and more, long before the Chinese who never got the top line models. Offered Backfires 3 decades ago, a fleet of SSNs, etc. ,and now their best bird the FGFA.Our mistake if we don't take our opportunties and others do.

The Chinese had the Su-27 & Su-30 operational years before the IAF received its Su-30s. It got S-300s that were better than anything in our inventory, and Kilos that were better than the ones in service with the IN. And they were reportedly offered Tu-22s as well in the early 90s.

Today the S-400 & Su-35 is operational with the PLAAF and the J-10/J-11/J-20 series continue to be powered by Russian engines. Long story short - the Russians are selling to both sides with claims of better equipment to India being just that.. an unverifiable claim. Which is perfectly fine for them but India doesn't owe Russia any favours.

As far as the FGFA is concerned, given the fact that the Su-57 hasn't delivered a single production unit to date, its safe to assume that its at least a decade away from maturity. Any units bought in the meantime are likely to be under-performing, unreliable, poorly supported maintenance hassles.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vivek K » 21 Feb 2018 09:05

No point in wasting band width arguing with RRFs (Russo Rakshaks).

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Parasu » 21 Feb 2018 14:55

Philip wrote:Have you forgotten '71 and who protected our backs both from the US and China? Secondly , who has provided us with the key cutting edge weapons and tech that give us the qualitative edge still with both our enemies? Would our SSBN programmd have sicceeded without Ru help? Read what our former chiefs and sr. officers have said about the Indo- Russiam mil
relationship that has served us so well for ddcades.The Kurds have been repeatedly backstabbed by the US from the time that they allowed him to gas them, with chemicals sold to them by the global chem warfare experys thd Germans!


Ah. History.
Didnt Babur come from Uzbekistan?!
Kurds have been nicely f@cked by Russia which had previously stationed troops in Afrin and vacated them after a "deal" with jihadi Erdogan. That was about only a month ago. Somehow you remember things 40 years old but don remember stuff 500 years or one month old.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Amoghvarsha » 22 Feb 2018 03:49

Paki news agencies claiming Russia supporyed the Pakis in FTAF.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Rudradev » 22 Feb 2018 03:56

Indian news outlets report the same.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 007465.cms

Sources at Pakistan’s foreign ministry said Islamabad’s success was due to intense diplomatic efforts. “China, Turkey and Russia, all of whom are part of FATF, opposed the motion, which was jointly moved by the US and the UK against Pakistan,” official sources said. After failing to arrive at a consensus, sources claimed, the global watchdog dropped its plan to table the motion for voting in its plenary session starting on Wednesday.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Amoghvarsha » 22 Feb 2018 04:20

Rudradev wrote:Indian news outlets report the same.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 007465.cms

Sources at Pakistan’s foreign ministry said Islamabad’s success was due to intense diplomatic efforts. “China, Turkey and Russia, all of whom are part of FATF, opposed the motion, which was jointly moved by the US and the UK against Pakistan,” official sources said. After failing to arrive at a consensus, sources claimed, the global watchdog dropped its plan to table the motion for voting in its plenary session starting on Wednesday.


Russia has turned heel. With Rus and chen backing bakis, we have little chance of punishing bakis diplomatically.

Our worst nightmare will be Russians stopping spare supplies for our weapon systems. This may be catastrophic for our war waging capabilities.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Prem » 22 Feb 2018 09:26

When asked about the Moscow meeting, Russian Ambassador to India Nikolai Kudashev told The Hindu last week that Russia’s decision at the FATF would depend on “how weighty and substantiated the proof for Pakistan’s involvement in financing terrorism will be,” adding that “ to corner Pakistan” was not Russia’s policy.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 745575.ece

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Zynda » 22 Feb 2018 10:46

IMHO, the above was expected. With us aligning more & more with Western (US) interests/defence purchases and with Russia relying plus aligning with China, Russia has to prioritise TSP interests as well perhaps due to Chinese pressure mainly but also to signal to us that new Russia won't stand by India always unless it is buttered up i.e. keep the moolah flowing in through defence article purchases. I'd say, let them look out for their interests and let us look out for us. If needed be, let India pull out of FGFA program and go full ahead on our AMCA. Better if we could pull in Dassualt to help us out (technically if not financially) and bring out a joint 5th gen product, it would be still better since France does not have a 5th gen program of its own.

Russia has to worry about the prospects of its exports in 10-15 years from now. Two of its biggest arms exporters would probably not be looking at Russia for defence wares. The ME countries may buy some Russia wares but it won't be in quantities like India used to buy. Most of the major economies which are capable & may have needs for huge defence purchases are Western countries or prefer to buy Western equipment. Prospects for Russia wares export in huge quantities may not be so strong in future!

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Parasu » 22 Feb 2018 17:55

Going as per plan. Russia China and jihadi states, Turkey, Pakistan aligning against India, Israel, Western states.
Huntington`s clash of civilizations coming of age.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Bart S » 22 Feb 2018 18:02

Amoghvarsha wrote:
Russia has turned heel. With Rus and chen backing bakis, we have little chance of punishing bakis diplomatically.

Our worst nightmare will be Russians stopping spare supplies for our weapon systems. This may be catastrophic for our war waging capabilities.


Their spares supply and product quality is so poor at the best of times that they don't even have to try. And if they want to do so, they would probably drag their feet and secretly delay or disrupt the supply chain rather than explicitly coming out and doing it as policy.

The bigger threat to India is them supplying lethal weapons and force multipliers to Pakistan, unlike our proclivity to buy white elephants like a worthless carrier from Russia, they have a razor sharp focus on hurting India and would probably like to get their hands on platforms where Russia does excel at and can provide value for money like infantry weapons, artillery/MBRL type systems and missiles.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Amoghvarsha » 22 Feb 2018 21:25

Bart S wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:
Russia has turned heel. With Rus and chen backing bakis, we have little chance of punishing bakis diplomatically.

Our worst nightmare will be Russians stopping spare supplies for our weapon systems. This may be catastrophic for our war waging capabilities.


Their spares supply and product quality is so poor at the best of times that they don't even have to try. And if they want to do so, they would probably drag their feet and secretly delay or disrupt the supply chain rather than explicitly coming out and doing it as policy.

The bigger threat to India is them supplying lethal weapons and force multipliers to Pakistan, unlike our proclivity to buy white elephants like a worthless carrier from Russia, they have a razor sharp focus on hurting India and would probably like to get their hands on platforms where Russia does excel at and can provide value for money like infantry weapons, artillery/MBRL type systems and missiles.



Will Russians sell for free? The time Russia sells MRBLs or ABMs or missiles to Pakistan, Russian MIC will literally lose the Indian market.

What i fear is a denial of supply of spares in a war like event with Pakis and we not able to keep a large part of our weaponary working.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 22 Feb 2018 21:29

Regarding the FATF , news reports that it was Saudi, China and Turkey which did not allow Consensus to emerge against Pakistan.(Minimum 3 naysayers were required to break the consensus).
Last edited by Vips on 22 Feb 2018 21:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 22 Feb 2018 21:32

Parasu wrote:Going as per plan. Russia China and jihadi states, Turkey, Pakistan aligning against India, Israel, Western states.
Huntington`s clash of civilizations coming of age.


Nope, Russia is fully christian(Orthodox) whereas Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China (225 Million and growing).It is on track to becoming the largest christian nation in the world within the next 10 years. Per Huntington's theory the clash of civilization will be a clash between Islamic vs the rest (majorly christian) grouping/countries.
Last edited by Vips on 22 Feb 2018 21:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 22 Feb 2018 21:35

Amoghvarsha wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Indian news outlets report the same.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 007465.cms



Russia has turned heel. With Rus and chen backing bakis, we have little chance of punishing bakis diplomatically.

Our worst nightmare will be Russians stopping spare supplies for our weapon systems. This may be catastrophic for our war waging capabilities.


Pakistan will suffer the same fate as America and Europe will stop the spares supplies to them.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 22 Feb 2018 21:43

Whether we like it or not GOI will have to give a big contract in the near future to the Russians (S400 or FGFA) to ensure they remain at least neutral in future India pakistan equations. Again to remain neutral not pro-india.

As far as China is concerned, they will openly oppose India in China's favor in any future calculus.

Uncle Sam is with us for now but i hope better sense prevails and we also strategically court France (as a Veto holding power) and ensure they are with us and exercises the Veto in our favor in future when push comes to shove. In 1998 it was France which signaled to India its support and desire for such a relationship when the West wanted to impose sanctions on us after the dhamakas.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Parasu » 23 Feb 2018 01:45

Vips wrote:Regarding the FATF , news reports that it was Saudi, China and Turkey which did not allow Consensus to emerge against Pakistan.(Minimum 3 naysayers were required to break the consensus).

Thanks. Was surprised with the Russian vote too.
India needs to stay engaged woth russia. China of course has aligned with Pakistan.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Amoghvarsha » 23 Feb 2018 02:21

Vips wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:
Russia has turned heel. With Rus and chen backing bakis, we have little chance of punishing bakis diplomatically.

Our worst nightmare will be Russians stopping spare supplies for our weapon systems. This may be catastrophic for our war waging capabilities.


Pakistan will suffer the same fate as America and Europe will stop the spares supplies to them.


70% of our equipment is Russian origin. We are buying even more.

Pakistan has Chinese equipment and that supply wont stop.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 23 Feb 2018 03:35

All the cutting edge stuff (relatively speaking) that pakistan has- from F16's and Mirages to frigates, to Artillery Guns to Submarines is all Western stuff, and is susceptible to spares embargo.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Rudradev » 23 Feb 2018 03:56

Vips wrote:Regarding the FATF , news reports that it was Saudi, China and Turkey which did not allow Consensus to emerge against Pakistan.(Minimum 3 naysayers were required to break the consensus).


Would like to see a link to these news reports, please.

The 37 permanent members of FATF are Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, china , Denmark, European Commission, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Gulf Co-operation Council, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Russian Federation, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, United Kingdom and the US.

Israel and Saudi Arabia have observer status.

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/about/membersandobservers/

Can a country with "observer status" be one of three naysayers to break the consensus between actual FATF members? I would think the naysayers have to be permanent members of FATF, which certainly keeps the focus on Russia along with Turkey and China.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Viv S » 23 Feb 2018 04:09

Vips wrote:All the cutting edge stuff (relatively speaking) that pakistan has- from F16's and Mirages to frigates, to Artillery Guns to Submarines is all Western stuff, and is susceptible to spares embargo.

Not necessarily.

They've only got one squadron (18 aircraft) of F-16 Blk 52s. The rest are of early 80s vintage, upgraded in the mid-00s. Must be around 35 years old at this point. Are unlikely to be serviceable past 2025. Mirages are already being replaced by JF-17s.

Their OHP is badly under-armed and only really useful for maritime policing, while the Type 21s are practically buoyant scrap-metal. The most modern component of their surface fleet are the four Chinese-origin F-22Ps. Similar situation wrt undersea element. The Agosta 70s are deadweight, the three Agosta 90Bs are fairly effective, however, the core of the submarine fleet will be the eight Yuan-class boats ordered from China to be delivered between 2021 & 2028.

The PA's M109s though are legitimate embargo targets. But keep in mind even they are modernized 80s-era equipment. Unlikely to have a great deal of service life remaining.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Bart S » 23 Feb 2018 04:13

^^GCC vote might be controlled by Saudi Arabia. Also, China might control the HK vote.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 23 Feb 2018 04:26

Viv S wrote:
Vips wrote:All the cutting edge stuff (relatively speaking) that pakistan has- from F16's and Mirages to frigates, to Artillery Guns to Submarines is all Western stuff, and is susceptible to spares embargo.

Not necessarily.

They've only got one squadron (18 aircraft) of F-16 Blk 52s. The rest are of early 80s vintage, upgraded in the mid-00s. Must be around 35 years old at this point. Are unlikely to be serviceable past 2025. Mirages are already being replaced by JF-17s.

Their OHP is badly under-armed and only really useful for maritime policing, while the Type 21s are practically buoyant scrap-metal. The most modern component of their surface fleet are the four Chinese-origin F-22Ps. Similar situation wrt undersea element. The Agosta 70s are deadweight, the three Agosta 90Bs are fairly effective, however, the core of the submarine fleet will be the eight Yuan-class boats ordered from China to be delivered between 2021 & 2028.

The PA's M109s though are legitimate embargo targets. But keep in mind even they are modernized 80s-era equipment. Unlikely to have a great deal of service life remaining.


The only front line aircraft whether upgraded or not are the F16s which will be embargoed. With 60 JF17's and minus the assured flying of F16's and Mirages how effective will PAF be? The Navy is dependent on the frigates to do the patrolling if they are not serviceable what will the 4 Chinese frigates be good for? Same goes for the Mirages.The first of the Yuan class submarine is a good 5 years away from coming in to service. So in effect half the fighting force right now is vulnerable.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Philip » 23 Feb 2018 07:48

Pak may get from friendly Muslim nations as they did in the past a few aircraft , AVs, ammo,etc.,but are in no shape to take on India alone.Their major hope is to play a JV part with China apart from the terror campaign against us in J& K. China will keep them beefed up with as much Chin eqpt. that they can absorb so that numbers are boosted.But that's about it.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 23 Feb 2018 10:04

Rudradev wrote:
Vips wrote:Regarding the FATF , news reports that it was Saudi, China and Turkey which did not allow Consensus to emerge against Pakistan.(Minimum 3 naysayers were required to break the consensus).


Would like to see a link to these news reports, please.

The 37 permanent members of FATF are Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, china , Denmark, European Commission, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Gulf Co-operation Council, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Russian Federation, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, United Kingdom and the US.

Israel and Saudi Arabia have observer status.

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/about/membersandobservers/

Can a country with "observer status" be one of three naysayers to break the consensus between actual FATF members? I would think the naysayers have to be permanent members of FATF, which certainly keeps the focus on Russia along with Turkey and China.


Saudi Arabia acted on behalf of the Gulf Cooperation council.

Got to hand it to the Saudis. What Chutzpah. They have not become full member of the FATF knowing fully well that majority of the shady financing (to madrasas and hate preachers) worldwide originates from that country. So they remote control the outcome of any meeting by exercising the GCC vote. They are not only the cause of the problem but also sit and lord over deciding if/when action is to be taken and against whom!!!!!

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Austin » 23 Feb 2018 11:56

Saudi has bankrolled the entire Pakistan Nuclear program and they have a proxy Sunni Bomb , PA today is fighting Saudi war in Yemen where it has deployed security forces in behalf of Saudi , both countries are actively promoters of Jihad and Paki politicians run to Saudi for any dispute with PA , All said and done this is a marriage made in heaven , Saudi even gave Oil Pakistan credit during Kargil crisis to tide of financial issue.

Dont expect Saudi to ever support India for any issue no matter how trival it is when it comes to pakistan.

Saudi being leader of OPEC and GCC their decision is by default GCC decision if any country tries to revolt they would meet qatar fate

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 23 Feb 2018 19:20

Austin wrote:Saudi has bankrolled the entire Pakistan Nuclear program and they have a proxy Sunni Bomb , PA today is fighting Saudi war in Yemen where it has deployed security forces in behalf of Saudi , both countries are actively promoters of Jihad and Paki politicians run to Saudi for any dispute with PA , All said and done this is a marriage made in heaven , Saudi even gave Oil Pakistan credit during Kargil crisis to tide of financial issue.

Dont expect Saudi to ever support India for any issue no matter how trival it is when it comes to pakistan.

Saudi being leader of OPEC and GCC their decision is by default GCC decision if any country tries to revolt they would meet qatar fate


Do not want to be OT here but the Saudis want in big time in all future Oil and Gas related business of India (Tens of billions of $$). They want to take a stake in the largest grass root refinery (65 Million Tonnes/Year) to be set up by India in Maharashtra and also in other refinery additions in other parts (200 Million tonnes/Year). Saudi Arabia relations with Israel is improving and its general strategic outlook is changing under the new King/Prince and if now the US offers Nuclear umbrella to Saudi against Iran the Pakistani hold on Saudi defense will dilute to a considerable extent.

Over a period of time the GCC is bound to come out of Saudi influence. Each of the GCC member is very affluent. Qatar is doing just fine with Iranian and Turkish support. The Saudis cannot take their lordship for granted. UAE will be their only assured lackey.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Austin » 23 Feb 2018 21:54

Vips wrote:
Austin wrote:Saudi has bankrolled the entire Pakistan Nuclear program and they have a proxy Sunni Bomb , PA today is fighting Saudi war in Yemen where it has deployed security forces in behalf of Saudi , both countries are actively promoters of Jihad and Paki politicians run to Saudi for any dispute with PA , All said and done this is a marriage made in heaven , Saudi even gave Oil Pakistan credit during Kargil crisis to tide of financial issue.

Dont expect Saudi to ever support India for any issue no matter how trival it is when it comes to pakistan.

Saudi being leader of OPEC and GCC their decision is by default GCC decision if any country tries to revolt they would meet qatar fate


Do not want to be OT here but the Saudis want in big time in all future Oil and Gas related business of India (Tens of billions of $$). They want to take a stake in the largest grass root refinery (65 Million Tonnes/Year) to be set up by India in Maharashtra and also in other refinery additions in other parts (200 Million tonnes/Year). Saudi Arabia relations with Israel is improving and its general strategic outlook is changing under the new King/Prince and if now the US offers Nuclear umbrella to Saudi against Iran the Pakistani hold on Saudi defense will dilute to a considerable extent.

Over a period of time the GCC is bound to come out of Saudi influence. Each of the GCC member is very affluent. Qatar is doing just fine with Iranian and Turkish support. The Saudis cannot take their lordship for granted. UAE will be their only assured lackey.


There is lot of if in that argument , If saudi does that and others do that .... I am not sure how Saudi can leave Pakistan and bank roll Sunni Jihadist all over the world including India that is the nature of regime , We need to deal with the devil that is now and leave the hope thing to better times.

But then even US failed taking any action against Saudi and if GOI gets tough they will just send back all the expat from GCC back to india we dont have much choice then be just cordial and smile and hope for best.

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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Rudradev » 23 Feb 2018 22:41

Confirmed. Vips and Austin were correct.

It was China, Turkey, and Saudi (on behalf of GCC)... NOT Russia, that tried to block FATF putting Pakistan on the watchlist.

Also, the attempt failed when US frowned at Mohammed Bin Salman and he backed off :mrgreen:

With U.S. Push, Pakistan Placed on Terror Finance List
Saudi Arabia abandons earlier support for Islamabad under pressure from Washington


https://www.wsj.com/articles/with-u-s-p ... 1519401064


By Saeed Shah
Feb. 23, 2018 10:51 a.m. ET


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—Saudi Arabia has backed down under pressure from the U.S. and allowed Pakistan to be placed on an international terror-financing watch list, officials from countries involved in the decision said Friday, dealing a blow to the country’s struggling economy.

The Financial Action Task Force’s decision to put Pakistan on a list of countries with lax controls over terror financing and money laundering is part of a push by the Trump administration to punish Islamabad over what it sees as inaction against terrorists operating on its soil. Last month, Washington announced it was withholding $2 billion in security assistance.

Pakistan says it has carried out successful counterterrorism operations, leaving no militant safe havens on its territory, and that it believes the U.S. move is political and will undermine its ability to take further action.

The country’s inclusion on the list will make the country’s borrowing more expensive, require greater scrutiny for international banking transactions and add red tape for exporters. It could also damage the prospect for foreign direct investment, just as Pakistan is seeking to remake its international image as a “normal” country and a destination for business.

At the meeting of the secretive body in Paris, Saudi Arabia joined China and Turkey on Tuesday to vote down the U.S-led proposal to put Pakistan on the watch list, in a rare disagreement with the Trump administration. Saudi Arabia was representing the Gulf Co-operation Council block of six Persian Gulf nations.

In an unusual move, Washington pushed a second vote on the issue, after leaning on Saudi Arabia. In the final vote, Saudi Arabia didn’t support Pakistan, according to officials from countries in the task force. That meant Islamabad no longer had the required number of countries on its side to block a nomination.

China, which has moved closer to Pakistan with a $55 billion investment program, didn’t support Pakistan either in the final vote. Beijing didn’t immediately comment.

“For the first time we’re holding Pakistan accountable for its actions. We’ve seen modest progress in terms of Pakistan’s actual acknowledgment of these concerns, but the president is not satisfied with progress when it comes to Pakistan,” White House spokesman Raj Shah said Thursday.

There was no immediate comment from Saudi Arabia, but the country is a close partner for Pakistan as well as the U.S. This month, Pakistan said it would send up to 1,600 soldiers to Saudi Arabia for training and advising.

Pakistan said it believed that lobbying from archrival India also worked against it at the task force meeting, which ends Friday.

“I think Pakistan put up a very strong case. We were confident,” said Rana Afzal Khan, Pakistan’s deputy finance minister. “This is Indian-sponsored.” There was no immediate comment from New Delhi.

Washington denied earlier this week that it was acting in conjunction with India. The U.S. proposal was co-sponsored by the U.K., and also joined by Germany and France, according to Pakistan.

Although the task force decided to add Pakistan to the list, the process of implementing the decision means Islamabad won’t be officially named until the summer.

In the days before the meeting, Pakistan began a crackdown on Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the militant group blamed by the United Nations for the 2008 attack on the Indian city of Mumbai, which killed 166 people. Pakistan said it had seized some 200 properties belonging to the group and passed a law to ban it—10 years after the U.N. proscribed the outfit.

The sessions of the task force—which includes 27 members, though some are groupings of countries—are held in private, with countries meant to maintain the confidentiality of the discussions. An official statement is issued only at the end of the proceedings.

“Thank you Turkey for standing with Pakistan against all odds & proving that we are one. We are proud to have a brother like you,” a post on the Twitter account of Ahsan Iqbal, the Pakistani Interior Minister, said.

Washington accuses Pakistan’s military of supporting jihadist groups, like Jamaat-ud-Dawa against India, and says the Taliban, and the allied Haqqani network, use Pakistan as a safe haven. Pakistan says the Taliban doesn’t need sanctuary in Pakistan, as so much Afghanistan territory is in its control, and has urged peace talks with the insurgent group.

Pakistan has received some $33 billion in U.S. aid since 2001, according to Washington.

—Ian Talley in Washington contributed to this article.


JE Menon
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby JE Menon » 24 Feb 2018 00:47

>>“For the first time we’re holding Pakistan accountable for its actions. We’ve seen modest progress in terms of Pakistan’s actual acknowledgment of these concerns, but the president is not satisfied with progress when it comes to Pakistan,” White House spokesman Raj Shah said

Who's closer now, than lips and teeth, who's harder than steel, what's deeper than the oceans and higher than the mountains", iron brother?

Sweeter than honey!

Rudradev
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Rudradev » 24 Feb 2018 01:01

Adding insult to injury, the Cheeni birather also dropped its opposition to keeping Pakistan off the FATF watchlist at the last minute! The very same week that Pakistan made Mandarin an "official state language", virtually (and humiliatingly) declaring itself a Chinese colony!

This left only Erdogand's Turkey (AKPistan) sticking with the like-minded terrorist Pakis until the very end.

Vips
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 24 Feb 2018 02:27

Austin wrote:
Vips wrote:
Do not want to be OT here but the Saudis want in big time in all future Oil and Gas related business of India (Tens of billions of $$). They want to take a stake in the largest grass root refinery (65 Million Tonnes/Year) to be set up by India in Maharashtra and also in other refinery additions in other parts (200 Million tonnes/Year). Saudi Arabia relations with Israel is improving and its general strategic outlook is changing under the new King/Prince and if now the US offers Nuclear umbrella to Saudi against Iran the Pakistani hold on Saudi defense will dilute to a considerable extent.

Over a period of time the GCC is bound to come out of Saudi influence. Each of the GCC member is very affluent. Qatar is doing just fine with Iranian and Turkish support. The Saudis cannot take their lordship for granted. UAE will be their only assured lackey.


There is lot of if in that argument , If saudi does that and others do that .... I am not sure how Saudi can leave Pakistan and bank roll Sunni Jihadist all over the world including India that is the nature of regime , We need to deal with the devil that is now and leave the hope thing to better times.


There are not may if's here just one and that is what will be status of Saudi dependency on pakistan if US offers them a guarantee.

But then even US failed taking any action against Saudi and if GOI gets tough they will just send back all the expat from GCC back to india we dont have much choice then be just cordial and smile and hope for best.


With India projected to become the 3rd biggest oil importer in the world (after US and China) ,and US and China exploring alternate means (US - Shale Oil and China importing more and more of its oil from Russia), Saudis on the contrary will rely more and more on India for an assured market for its Oil.
Remember India did not invite Aramco and still they offered to be a partner in the massive downstream complexes that are to be set up in the next 15 years for refining and petrochemicals in India. It is not just India that needs the expat $$ but also Saudi that needs India as a market to make money , So we have a choice rather then as you put it to be cordial and hope for the best. Alternatives exist for India (Iran, Qatar and Iraq in the future).

ArjunPandit
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Feb 2018 03:18

A lot of people make out of indian workforce in ME, the question which country can provide such cheap and non bothering manpower on earth? Chinese/Pakis. The door swings both ways.

Vips
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Vips » 24 Feb 2018 10:48

ArjunPandit wrote:A lot of people make out of indian workforce in ME, the question which country can provide such cheap and non bothering manpower on earth? Chinese/Pakis. The door swings both ways.


More important which other labor/work force has the work ethics of Indians?

Tuan
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby Tuan » 24 Feb 2018 22:53

“The attraction of disinformation appears directly associated with the attraction of authoritarianism.”

A must read Canadian secret service report on Russian and Chinese fake-news.

Who Said What? The Security Challenges of Modern Disinformation
https://csis.gc.ca/pblctns/wrldwtch/201 ... 222-en.php

chola
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Postby chola » 25 Feb 2018 10:22

It seems hundreds of Russian “mercenaries” similiar to what they used in Ukraine were annihilated by Amreeki artillery and air strikes.

They made the deadly mistake of attacking — with their Assad pals — a base housing US troops:

http://dailycaller.com/2018/02/24/russians-us-strikes-syria/

The Russian government has downplayed the recent strikes on Russian mercenaries in Syria, however, recordings from fighters on the ground reveal just how hard U.S. forces hit them.

“One squadron ****** lost 200 people … right away, another one lost 10 people … and I don’t know about the third squadron but it got torn up pretty badly, too … So three squadrons took a beating,” a man believed to be a Russian contract soldier said in the first of three audio recordings obtained from a source close to the Kremlin by Polygraph.info, a fact-checking website affiliated with Voice of America.

“They beat our asses like we were little pieces of shit,” the man said, Newsweek introduced.

A U.S.-led strike following a raid on a Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) base where U.S. troops were stationed is believed to have killed hundreds of Russian military contractors fighting alongside pro-Syrian irregular forces. The U.S. forces hammered the attackers with heavy artillery and air strikes.


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