India-Russia: News & Analysis

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Manish_P
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Manish_P »

Vivek K wrote:Morons should be our calling card - 460 T-90 tanks killing our own jobs! The world has not seen such foolishness (or corruption)!!
Sir, what about line item 2 :)

Isn't import dependency on that most basic of infantry weapons a damming indictment about the overall vision, or lack thereof, for our own MIC.
Vivek K
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

Its a damming indictment of the armed forces that want to keep India week and subservient to foreign masters. The forces are destroying the economic security and sovereign decision making for short term territorial security.

Instead of developing the INSAS further, the IA has like its preference, Marutized the INSAS.
Pratyush
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Pratyush »

WRT, the agreement of weapons purchase. I would wait before any tin can order are signed.

As I have not seen any indication of this numbers of tin cans being procured before this report. The last time I saw such a report was for the procurement of the T90MS. But in that case that deal was being discussed for over a year before it was signed in 2019.

Having had that deal there is no reason to sign an additional deal. As we can simply produce additional tanks under that deal itself.
chetak
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Vivek K wrote:Its a damming indictment of the armed forces that want to keep India week and subservient to foreign masters. The forces are destroying the economic security and sovereign decision making for short term territorial security.

Instead of developing the INSAS further, the IA has like its preference, Marutized the INSAS.
any incentives for the russkis to keep batting on our side or are we expecting charity. Their supply is sans sermons on human rights, free of partisan politics, hypocrisy, and religious bigotry.

just saying onlee

they have stood by India for the longest time. Gone to bat for us at the UN on uncounted occasions. I would not piss them off. Seriously.

BTW, it is not a decision by the armed forces. It is the GoI's decision to make the final call, whether to import or not. They have to find the money and also ways to keep putin happy. That's always a tough ask.

If the GoI says that we will not approve imports, do you think that the IA will sulk, take its bat and ball and go home or simply roll up its sleeves, gird its loins and get back to staring down xi in ladakh or whatever the hell the GoI wants it to do.

The IA has survived neverwho, krishna menon and toy soldier kaul, and many other guttersnipe politicos, so it knows how to fight with what it has. It was once forced to fight on the freezing heights in canvas shoes and summer uniform, without supplies and food because some babooze and politicos punks did not know what it took to fight and survive at such altitudes.

I never once heard an apology from any one of those responsible for the debacle

and less of this
"It's a damming indictment of the armed forces that want to keep India week (sic) and subservient to foreign masters. The forces are destroying the economic security and sovereign decision making for short term territorial security."
you don't know the half of it

and with India's Armed forces, never ever forget that the best of them don't come home
ArjunPandit
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ArjunPandit »

Vips wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:It's their job to try and do hafta vasooli in return of any veto....and ours to develop our systems and say no..
Chanakian Yindoos have diluted the Power or sway of possible Russian help to India by using their Veto for India by building a strategic partnership with France. India now has an alternative. So Russians will be shooting themselves in the foot if they overestimate their importance or try to take India for granted.
well they can make all the noises..esp as they did when india selected chinook..i remember a russian officer/diplomat saying mi26 lifted chinook..but that said their broader alignment with china has a problem..also with france we are overestimating the relationship..best to develop ours and let the games unfold...less and less hafta paying to anyone..
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Vips wrote:
Chanakian Yindoos have diluted the Power or sway of possible Russian help to India by using their Veto for India by building a strategic partnership with France. India now has an alternative. So Russians will be shooting themselves in the foot if they overestimate their importance or try to take India for granted.
well they can make all the noises..esp as they did when india selected chinook..i remember a russian officer/diplomat saying mi26 lifted chinook..but that said their broader alignment with china has a problem..also with france we are overestimating the relationship..best to develop ours and let the games unfold...less and less hafta paying to anyone..
The russkis are facing a threat from the hans and are doing what they think is best to mitigate that. They are walking a tightrope, with both the hans and the amerikis after their blood and territory.

Under neverwho and the congis, we did exactly the very same thing, appease and placate the hans right up to 2014 and the babooze are still kowtowing silently and quietly by subverting efforts to stop this policy. Look at the massive balance of trade we have with the hans despite their being eyeball to eyeball in ladakh and tawang. This is a declared enemy state.

But the russkis still sold you the S-400, to which the hans must have very strenuously objected and are now also offering you their latest S-500 too as the lead customer

The russkis would not have been very happy when India turned to the amerikis in a strategic shift.

India has wisely diversified its weapon supply chains and is buying from all three thus avoiding the all eggs in one basket syndrome while keeping its lines of communication open with all three.

the russkis give us access to civil and military systems which the amerikis and france will not sell to us, as well as nuclear tech in which we are already very heavily into russki equipment and under some "grandfather agreement", they are even selling us fissile materials

while it's best to develop your own capabilities and systems, it is also wise to keep the russkis in your corner and batting for you

It is the amerikis who are taking us for granted by threatening to sanction us for buying from the russkis.

It's high time we told the amerikis to bugger off and let us be, to buy from where we will, as we need and per our requirement based on the threat perception to ourselves and not be a lackey to service some great game being played out from some remote continent.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ArjunPandit »

chetakji totally agree above, i would also point out that russia has been more reliable in standing for its allies/friends rather than US that has thrown its allies to dogs..including those in 'nam, iraq, turkey, afghanistan, iraq, and even paxtan.There could be valid reasons for that but when it comes to trusting, the hierarchy goes, "own capabitlity", ruskies, and then a distant khan.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

ArjunPandit wrote:chetakji totally agree above, i would also point out that russia has been more reliable in standing for its allies/friends rather than US that has thrown its allies to dogs..including those in 'nam, iraq, turkey, afghanistan, iraq, and even paxtan.There could be valid reasons for that but when it comes to trusting, the hierarchy goes, "own capabitlity", ruskies, and then a distant khan.
ArjunPandit ji

Just saying onlee

No need to buy from the russkis or from anywhere else, for that matter unless we really need to do so.

This reorganization of the ordnance factories is a step towards something bigger and more proactive to the needs of the hour

The ameriki weapons in taliban and paki hands are a direct threat to India and so the Govt is bound to respond rapidly and augment resources and capabilities.

We also need light tanks for operations in the heights of ladakh which is not your typical tank terrain

At one time we were ourselves interested in acquiring the ameriki MRAPS that were being used in afghanistan on completion of their ops there.

We need many effective Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected type of transports urgently in the naxal infested areas, and not necessarily ameriki stuff.

The pakis wanted the MRAPs even more badly for their own ops in baluchistan and some other troubled areas
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

ArjunPandit wrote:chetakji totally agree above, i would also point out that russia has been more reliable in standing for its allies/friends rather than US that has thrown its allies to dogs..including those in 'nam, iraq, turkey, afghanistan, iraq, and even paxtan.There could be valid reasons for that but when it comes to trusting, the hierarchy goes, "own capabitlity", ruskies, and then a distant khan.
Russia looks after their own interests and is no different than the US or France. They need USD and will keep playing on stupid sentiment to make up for weapon systems that have poor reliability. It is time for India to ban all imports for at least 10 years on all weapon systems and favor the promotion of domestic industry first. In 2-3 years from now, we can almost guarantee that the CAG will find poor availability of the S-400 system. The Admiral Gorshkov, MiG-29K, SU-30MKI, T-90 and others come to mind.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

How long will India remain grateful for Russian help? During the SU days - India was given hardware at a lower cost - but the difference was made up through allowing roosi industry export duty free sales in India. So this was a double whammy - killed MIC and also killed civilian industry.
And does UN dictate anything anymore? Why are we so scared of world opinion? Others aren't and pay scant attention to it. So why is this support so important?

So basically what Chetak is describing in his post is a relationship of sycophancy or dependence - give what the "friend" wants else the friend will turn against Indian interests. Well if India wants to be blackmailed in this manner, then don't try to attain a power status. We buy products that are difficult to service, spares are not easily available and some capabilities are just in brochures.

If RU is a friend, then friends do not blackmail - do not need appeasement. Friends share common interests. India is a large market and it should act its size. But... then if we want to bend over....
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Prem Kumar »

chetak wrote: The ameriki weapons in taliban and paki hands are a direct threat to India and so the Govt is bound to respond rapidly and augment resources and capabilities.
Which is why, IMHO, we missed a trick. We should have done a Surgical Strike 4.0 from the Tajikistan airbase, once the Americans left, to destroy all their equipment. It should've been timed before Taliban overtook Kabul. Could've done it with minimum bloodshed even for the Talibs (not that we care). If Amrikans complained, we could've told them that we did the cleanup that they failed to do.

Better than wringing our hands in helplessness & teeth-grinding at the Americans for surreptitiously passing along maal to terrorists.

Anyway OT for this thread
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Vivek K wrote:How long will India remain grateful for Russian help? During the SU days - India was given hardware at a lower cost - but the difference was made up through allowing roosi industry export duty free sales in India. So this was a double whammy - killed MIC and also killed civilian industry.
And does UN dictate anything anymore? Why are we so scared of world opinion? Others aren't and pay scant attention to it. So why is this support so important?

So basically what Chetak is describing in his post is a relationship of sycophancy or dependence - give what the "friend" wants else the friend will turn against Indian interests. Well if India wants to be blackmailed in this manner, then don't try to attain a power status. We buy products that are difficult to service, spares are not easily available and some capabilities are just in brochures.

If RU is a friend, then friends do not blackmail - do not need appeasement. Friends share common interests. India is a large market and it should act its size. But... then if we want to bend over....
if one ignores friends, then, in time, they will drift away. The friends have a life too and they will simply get on with their's, with or without you.

who drives away or ignores friends in the hour of the nation's urgent need.

the russkis have never blackmailed us, whereas, the amerikis have frequently done so using their so called "fearsome" threat of sanctions.

even sanctions will not work with Modi as India is now too large a power to be successfully sanctioned and the world knows it for a fact.

If the amerikis sanction us, amazon and walmart will be the very first to take a hit by being banned from operating in India, quickly followed by twitter and facebook and non ameriki replacements will come flooding in to fill the gaps

and where does that leave you, in the hands of new friends who have always been inimical towards you, spirited away hundreds of thousands of your best and brightest, ones that you have educated, nurtured, and prepared using scarce national resources, are these your new friends, thieves who have stolen you blind for decades and will do so with impunity for many more decades to come and yet you will never dare to open your pie hole because it does not suit your woke narrative

translated to dollars, can you calculate how many trillions you have lost to the amerikis over the many decades of intellectual theft by this greedy "soft" power

India is too big to be sycophantic, which is exactly what the amerikis wanted, needed, and expected from India but that never happened. They have always derided India right from the beginning hence the pronounced paki tilt, always hoping to use the saudis to control the rogue pakis.

so how is that working out for niazi and bajwa, saudi control with an ameriki remote.


the amerikis shit all over the pakis but walk very very gingerly around Modi.

does that look like sycophancy to you

But Modi is in the way. The slumber of the majority has broken and their eyes have been opened.

the russkis gave us weapons for the barter of bananas, tea and bata shoes etc

and they initially gave us fighters, submarines and missiles when no one else would and now we operate a russki carrier, russki nuke subs and great help in completing the nuke triad which upset a lot of people.

don't believe anything some coked out defence journos tweet. they are being paid to do so. Alleged figures of serviceability and availability are BS. This info is classified and will not be bandied about by any guy in uniform. So the gamut of tweets run from the fanciful to the absurd. Take your pick.

the amerikis and the west want to break the relationship between India and russkis for their own ends. That is what being part of the BIF is all about

The amerikis only talk of weapon sales, market access for amazon, walmart, and harley davidson, "freedom of speech and democracy" as defined by twitter and facebook so that we can be brainwashed and manipulated and arm twisted into doing what the ameriki deep state wants. They need to have their hands in your pockets all the time.

who is more poisonous, huawei, amazon, walmart, twitter, and facebook is actually a toss up.

All these entities are poisonous to the well being of India and Indians

why do you have this deep seated hatred for your country's soldiers. your language for them is revealing of a particular mindset and you seem to be habituated to making such overarching and sweeping statements. there is no way that you are better than any of them so stop being condescending and patronizing.

Have you even seen an INSAS close up, much less held or fired one.

So, what exactly is "marutized the INSAS" or did you just like the way it sounded woke.
Its a damming indictment of the armed forces that want to keep India week and subservient to foreign masters. The forces are destroying the economic security and sovereign decision making for short term territorial security.
seriously, they do what they do and still have time for this codswallop that you are accusing them of............

what is it that you wish to convey by making the above statement, care to explain

who exactly are these "masters" that the armed forces are so worried about that they are so willing to destroy the country for

our threats are immediate and looming and so the solution too has to suit the timeline.

pipe dreams can wait.

or you will not only be bending over but also speaking chinese, if we don't act now.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

chetak wrote:
if one ignores friends, then, in time, they will drift away. The friends have a life too and they will simply get on with their's, with or without you.

who drives away or ignores friends in the hour of the nation's urgent need.
Friends do not force themselves on you. When the price of Admiral Gorshkov was raised $2B - India paid up. When Sukhoi was going bankrupt - India advanced $2b to help keep them afloat - as 100% upfront payment for the Sukhois.

Putin had set goals of how many $B he needed from India - and India has lived up to that. How long can this contiue? The T-90 purchase puts Indian national security at risk - a tank that is inferior to the Arjun is purchased in the thousands - how many Indians will die in poverty because of this decision? How much could the nation have earned in exports for the Arjun?
the russkis have never blackmailed us, whereas, the amerikis have frequently done so using their so called "fearsome" threat of sanctions.
Are we looking for a Sugar Daddy when we don't need one? India has repaid its debt to Russia many times over - yet some Indians continue to put Indian sovereign decision making as subservient to Russian interests. This is illogical. The cold war is over - India needs to look out for herself - preserve her own jobs, build our own industries. Friends are needed - but no more does today's India need to buy ships or fighters or missiles or tanks or guns from anyone. We need technology for items that may add value to our products. And that's where we need to collaborate with Russia - as a friend with shared interests. But one day will come when the tide will turn - Russia may want to buy Indian products. Or would you keep buying from them?
even sanctions will not work with Modi as India is now too large a power to be successfully sanctioned and the world knows it for a fact.

If the amerikis sanction us, amazon and walmart will be the very first to take a hit by being banned from operating in India, quickly followed by twitter and facebook and non ameriki replacements will come flooding in to fill the gaps
I pray every day that India is sanctioned by the US - that will draw our attention to a lot of necessary inventions. You cannot become powerful with another's largesse! Powerful nations, as history has shown, become powerful from within.
and where does that leave you, in the hands of new friends who have always been inimical towards you, spirited away hundreds of thousands of your best and brightest, ones that you have educated, nurtured, and prepared using scarce national resources, are these your new friends, thieves who have stolen you blind for decades and will do so with impunity for many more decades to come and yet you will never dare to open your pie hole because it does not suit your woke narrative
You're off on a tangent buddy! The question is
a) 460 T-90s or 460 Arjuns?
b) AK-203 or INSA derivatives

Unless you think swadeshi is "woke" then I pity you - truly!
why do you have this deep seated hatred for your country's soldiers. your language for them is revealing of a particular mindset and you seem to be habituated to making such overarching and sweeping statements. there is no way that you are better than any of them so stop being condescending and patronizing.
I am reporting you to the admins! But i truly do pity you. Wanting my soldiers to be armed with the best - Arjun is better than T-90 (by the army's own tests) seems not good enough for you. I consider persons like you traitors to the Indian national cause. You cry over Amercia everytime Russia is criticized or an Indian product is appreciated. Till date we have seen about 40 LCAs fly for the past nearly 2 decades. How many have crashed? Compare that with all other fighters (pray don't even look at the Mig-21s that have killed more Indian pilots in peacetime than we have lost in war).
Last edited by Vivek K on 15 Nov 2021 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
chetak
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Vivek K wrote:
chetak wrote:
if one ignores friends, then, in time, they will drift away. The friends have a life too and they will simply get on with their's, with or without you.

who drives away or ignores friends in the hour of the nation's urgent need.
Friends do not force themselves on you. When the price of Admiral Gorshkov was raised $2B - India paid up. When Sukhoi was going bankrupt - India advanced $2b to help keep them afloat - as 100% upfront payment for the Sukhois.

Putin had set goals of how many $B he needed from India - and India has lived up to that. How long can this contiue? The T-90 purchase puts Indian national security at risk - a tank that is inferior to the Arjun is purchased in the thousands - how many Indians will die in poverty because of this decision? How much could the nation have earned in exports for the Arjun?
the russkis have never blackmailed us, whereas, the amerikis have frequently done so using their so called "fearsome" threat of sanctions.
Are we looking for a Sugar Daddy when we don't need one? India has repaid its debt to Russia many times over - yet some Indians continue to put Indian sovereign decision making as subservient to Russian interests. This is illogical. The cold war is over - India needs to look out for herself - preserve her own jobs, build our own industries. Friends are needed - but no more does today's India need to buy ships or fighters or missiles or tanks or guns from anyone. We need technology for items that may add value to our products. And that's where we need to collaborate with Russia - as a friend with shared interests. But one day will come when the tide will turn - Russia may want to buy Indian products. Or would you keep buying from them?
even sanctions will not work with Modi as India is now too large a power to be successfully sanctioned and the world knows it for a fact.

If the amerikis sanction us, amazon and walmart will be the very first to take a hit by being banned from operating in India, quickly followed by twitter and facebook and non ameriki replacements will come flooding in to fill the gaps
I pray every day that India is sanctioned by the US - that will draw our attention to a lot of necessary inventions. You cannot become powerful with another's largesse! Powerful nations, as history has shown, become powerful from within.
and where does that leave you, in the hands of new friends who have always been inimical towards you, spirited away hundreds of thousands of your best and brightest, ones that you have educated, nurtured, and prepared using scarce national resources, are these your new friends, thieves who have stolen you blind for decades and will do so with impunity for many more decades to come and yet you will never dare to open your pie hole because it does not suit your woke narrative
You're off on a tangent buddy! The question is
a) 460 T-90s or 460 Arjuns?
b) AK-203 or INSA derivatives

Unless you think swadeshi is "woke" then I pity you - truly!
why do you have this deep seated hatred for your country's soldiers. your language for them is revealing of a particular mindset and you seem to be habituated to making such overarching and sweeping statements. there is no way that you are better than any of them so stop being condescending and patronizing.
I am reporting you to the admins! But i truly do pity you. Wanting my soldiers to be armed with the best - Arjun is better than T-90 (by the army's own tests) seems not good enough for you. I consider persons like you traitors to the Indian national cause. You cry over Amercia everytime Russia is criticized or and Indian product is appreciated. Till date we have seen about 40 LCAs fly for the past nearly 2 decades. How many have crashed? Compare that with all other fighters (pray don't even look at the Mig-21s that have killed more Indian pilots in peacetime than we have lost in war).
i am not your buddy.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

If you think that in the current usage "buddy" came even close to "friend", you may want to contact your English teacher and get some help.
chetak
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Vivek K wrote:If you think that in the current usage "buddy" came even close to "friend", you may want to contact your English teacher and get some help.
In the forces, they don't do woke

what part of i am not your buddy did you not understand

my last on this
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srikandan »

Stating the obvious (or not, going by ^^), "swadeshi" is a long term goal to reduce external dependency that cannot meet short term goals of having stuff the Armed forces can use in short order, as in the next 2-3 years. This is not an either-or situation.

All this R&D self-flagellating above seems to ignore the fact that a hostile china with good reason to push for a conflict with India reduces the timetable for acquiring equipment that will needed to fight the war, if it is imposed on us.

GoI has to have a story for the short term (which it tries to recover from the situation created by the traitors in the INC), and a long term story in terms of self-sufficient. Those in charge cannot ignore short-term threats and requirements in favor of long-term requirements (or vice-versa). GoI should "attracting global sanctions on ourselves is the best thing we can do"..so that what? the GoI can tell the enemy to stand still for a few weeks while we get self-sufficient with "swadeshi" weapons? Interesting plan.

What is happening is exactly what Dr. Jaishankar talked about in the past months re: the outlines of the current GoI's policy -- India has to balance/"Swing" between these mutually hostile states to secure its own interests, which include attracting foreign investment and war-fighting weaponry that the Armed Forces need, and lots of other contradicting requirements which requires diplomatic space for the GoI -- making enemies of anyone won't cut it.
chetak
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

srikandan wrote:Stating the obvious (or not, going by ^^), "swadeshi" is a long term goal to reduce external dependency that cannot meet short term goals of having stuff the Armed forces can use in short order, as in the next 2-3 years. This is not an either-or situation.

All this R&D self-flagellating above seems to ignore the fact that a hostile china with good reason to push for a conflict with India reduces the timetable for acquiring equipment that will needed to fight the war, if it is imposed on us.

GoI has to have a story for the short term (which it tries to recover from the situation created by the traitors in the INC), and a long term story in terms of self-sufficient. Those in charge cannot ignore short-term threats and requirements in favor of long-term requirements (or vice-versa). GoI should "attracting global sanctions on ourselves is the best thing we can do"..so that what? the GoI can tell the enemy to stand still for a few weeks while we get self-sufficient with "swadeshi" weapons? Interesting plan.

What is happening is exactly what Dr. Jaishankar talked about in the past months re: the outlines of the current GoI's policy -- India has to balance/"Swing" between these mutually hostile states to secure its own interests, which include attracting foreign investment and war-fighting weaponry that the Armed Forces need, and lots of other contradicting requirements which requires diplomatic space for the GoI -- making enemies of anyone won't cut it.
you got it right, srikandan ji
Voltaire, the French writer, said, “The best is the enemy of the good.” Confucius said, “Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.” And, of course, there's Shakespeare: “Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.”
I trust jaishankar as well as Modi to get us out of this maze.

they are doing exactly what is needed to put down an increasingly desperate and unstable xi while concentrating on getting out of the covid induced global clusterf(uk.

considering that it was xi who unleashed the wuhan virus in the first place, it has returned to cheen with a vengeance to bite him in the ass and other headwinds have also conspired and kicked him in the solar plexus

we need to be vigilant because xi has not left cheen for over 600 days now, fearing a coup in his absence

he badly needs a victory somewhere, either internally or externally, to bolster his image and standing
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

The Russians may be sympathetic, but they are only friends while India has the cash. The reality is, India is not prepared to fight out a war with China and much less, a two front war with China and TSP. The only solution is to build domestic MIC, but that can’t happen with continued imports be it from Russia, US or France.
Vivek K
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

Obviously Russia needs these orders after Covid's impact. But so does India. If the shoe were on the other foot, would Russia close its own factories and place an order with India? When you make friends used to illogical actions, it spoils the friendship. No one shuts their domestic industry to place orders abroad. Like the current gen of posters and admins on BRF say - there is a large enough market then it should be lucrative enough for purchase of components and technologies from friendly nations to foster our domestic MIC and move India towards economic security and sovereign decision making with the Indian products allowing adequate quantities of weapons to counter multiple threats to territorial security.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

Russian industrial capacity is not what it was and India’s is increasing. Russian GDP is limited outside of oil and gas. They may have some useful technologies, but India doesn’t owe Russia anything.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srikandan »

Having the ability to make local weapons 10 years from now is not sufficient to address near term threats without importing, unless the claim is that India can just whip these needs out in short order "with a little help from friendly nations", which is unrealistic bordering on the delusuional.

There is no "domestic market" for military products outside the armed forces (ignoring spin off tech that may be licensed to the civilian space), and who is going to pay these local companies for the R&D work to be "swadeshi"? Patriotic fervor is not enough to pay the bills for product development. Whatever direction these things spin, companies need years of lead time to do R&D-->Manufacture at scale before these companies can recoup their investments.

The current GoI has made it abundantly clear that it intends to create local MIC, which requires private players willing to participate in a domain where there is no civilian demand, and someone (private players) have to eat the risk of spending on R&D in anticipation of the rewards (contract) if they can create solid products that the Indian armed forces want to acquire.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/manuf ... 25909.html
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

srikandan wrote:Having the ability to make local weapons 10 years from now is not sufficient to address near term threats without importing, unless the claim is that India can just whip these needs out in short order "with a little help from friendly nations", which is unrealistic bordering on the delusuional.
How is it delusional to buy 36 Rafales when an order for 200 LCA Mk1 and 1A could have been given? How is it delusional to buy T-90s when the Arjun has been languishing? How is delusional to buy M777 howitzers when the LR Dhanush howitzer is available? These items are available and importing components, integrating, testing and delivering these weapon systems will create huge employment and know how.
srikandan wrote: There is no "domestic market" for military products outside the armed forces (ignoring spin off tech that may be licensed to the civilian space), and who is going to pay these local companies for the R&D work to be "swadeshi"? Patriotic fervor is not enough to pay the bills for product development. Whatever direction these things spin, companies need years of lead time to do R&D-->Manufacture at scale before these companies can recoup their investments.
Who cares about the domestic market when a greater amount of money was going out of India for imports? The weapon systems are for the armed forces and the taxpayer can pay Indian companies for recouping their investment. The technical skill and manufacturing base is well worth it. It happens in the US all of the time.
srikandan wrote:The current GoI has made it abundantly clear that it intends to create local MIC, which requires private players willing to participate in a domain where there is no civilian demand, and someone (private players) have to eat the risk of spending on R&D in anticipation of the rewards (contract) if they can create solid products that the Indian armed forces want to acquire.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/manuf ... 25909.html
These are half measures by the GoI. In a similar vein the taxpayer is on the hook for ISRO's missions and screw ups. The same can be done for defence manufacturing production. As bad as it sounds, the public will have to eat the risk, and private companies must profit.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srikandan »

Mort Walker: How is it delusional to buy 36 Rafales when an order for 200 LCA Mk1 and 1A could have been given? How is it delusional to buy T-90s when the Arjun has been languishing? How is delusional to buy M777 howitzers when the LR Dhanush howitzer is available? These items are available and importing components, integrating, testing and delivering these weapon systems will create huge employment and know how.
The delusional part is expecting that all of the above can be manufactured and inducted in the short term. I did not say it was delusional to think India could manufacture these lines in the long term to the satisfaction of the armed forces.

The restructuring of OFB (link in previous post) seems to be cause they could not deliver the items above, as they did not pass qualifying trials.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-08-11

And L&T seems to be developing its own competing product along with those OFB spinoff companies which will have their own competing line, so it seems like a matter of time before the armed forces can choose from local offerings. It would be great if all of these were offered this year or the next, but it usually takes longer, but it is great that things are at least headed in the right direction, a welcome change from the times of INC scum.

Unrealistic expectations are a recipe for certain disappointment, and the public sector companies have not delivered so far, and private players are getting in, and there are no criminals or their doormats like Manmohan Singh running the process these days, so there is reason to be optimistic because things are changing. Not fast enough for everyone's liking but there is change.
Last edited by srikandan on 16 Nov 2021 07:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Vivek K wrote:Its a damming indictment of the armed forces that want to keep India week and subservient to foreign masters. The forces are destroying the economic security and sovereign decision making for short term territorial security.

Instead of developing the INSAS further, the IA has like its preference, Marutized the INSAS.

Vivek K, Don't lose your cool and get banned. It is not the armed forces but the GOI that makes such decisions.

Large arms purchases are always political.
And let us see the balance of forces.
A light tank in Laddkah will get shot up with just a 30mm cannon and possibly block our own troops if it's the lead tank.
So you need good armour.
Once that's settled, note the GOI just gave a 118 Arjun order to Avadi.
So they cannot crank out more.
Then it leaves imports only if you want to fight the Chinese in Ladakh.
Next, it better be compatible to reduce the logistic trail in IA>
So you narrow down on T 90.
And it keeps Russia on the Indian side in picking a side versus China.
QED.

It is not about the industrial base but about reducing incentives for China to attack.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

The public sector companies have not been infused with billions like foreign contracts. The deal for the Rafales was a G-to-G contract signed in 2016 and all deliveries will happen by April 2022. Some 6 years later. If the investment was made in HAL, then the same time frame would have delivered at least 72 LCA Tejas Mk1 and 1A. Any investment into private companies can be made with contract agreement that should the company fail, then GoI takes over the capital assets. The investment in defense production has long term yields. At some point you have to sh!t or get off the pot. Half measures will only ensure India remains a regional power and one that can't project its power beyond.

Once investments have been made, then opposition parties must come around to the same thinking due to vested political interests in manufacturing. The current GoI is not guaranteed to return to power in 2024. Electoral politics is fickle.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srikandan »

Mort Walker: The current GoI is not guaranteed to return to power in 2024. Electoral politics is fickle.
That would be India's permanent misfortune. If the criminals in the opposition win the election, none of this talk about "swadeshi" etc. is going to matter, as their first order of business will be to demolish all the progress made, so they can get back to scamming weapons deals to fund their election campaigns and their extended families. There are videos of the likes of AK Anthony arguing in Parliament (less than a decade ago) that India is better defended by not building roads and defense systems to counter the Chinese...may as well surrender and start learning chinese if 2024 results bring such criminals back to power and takes us back to the bad old days.
Once investments have been made, then opposition parties must come around to the same thinking due to vested political interests in manufacturing.
Current obstructive and criminal behavior of the opposition parties does not suggest the criminals in the opposition will "come around" if there is money to be made by not coming around.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Mort Walker wrote:The Russians may be sympathetic, but they are only friends while India has the cash. The reality is, India is not prepared to fight out a war with China and much less, a two front war with China and TSP. The only solution is to build domestic MIC, but that can’t happen with continued imports be it from Russia, US or France.
agreed

but what happens in the intervening period, when we remain denuded and vulnerable

every "domestic" company "willing" to enter the MIC sector is asking for iron clad guarantees and not willing to risk their capital or make investments. This does not show confidence in their own capabilities.

first develop your company and then show some results including the all important design and development potential to bring home some useful systems/products

If such companies are not willing to commit skin in the game, why should the taxpayer prop up these guys.

scam after scam has been unearthed where govt funds have been sunk and syphoned off blithely followed invariably by a one way first class ticket to bartania

the ameriki MIC was developed after a prolonged commercial shakeout that winnowed out the wheat from the chaff.

They got their start during the two world wars. Such ecosystems will not occur again and so the new companies will have to either perform or perish.

Subsidies, in this age of scams, is not an option for this govt

why is it Modi's job to develop the MIC, what was the congi lot doing.

If modi tries and still companies fail because the success rate may only be 30-40%, will the failures go the predictable rafale way, with pappu swearing that bribes were taken, with global anti Modi propaganda in wapo, the guardian and the NYT

why not joint ventures between capable Indian companies or even consortiums of vertically specialized Indian companies bidding as an entity on a project basis

we need to avoid debacles like the pipav clusterf(uk which definitely will be used to burn Modi.

BTW, how easily we forget that the russians were our friends even when India did not have the cash. They stalled the US 7th fleet mid ocean.

we are and have always been short of friends. Hold on to those few whom we already have

there is plenty of business in India besides weapons. We need the FDI.

The frenchies have come into India in a very big way, selling automobiles for example.

The russkis too have other opportunities in India. Who is holding a gun to our head saying buy weapons from us, or else......... (except the sanction crazy amerikis, of course)

Learn to leverage your strengths and don't parade your weaknesses
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Mort Walker wrote:The public sector companies have not been infused with billions like foreign contracts. The deal for the Rafales was a G-to-G contract signed in 2016 and all deliveries will happen by April 2022. Some 6 years later. If the investment was made in HAL, then the same time frame would have delivered at least 72 LCA Tejas Mk1 and 1A. Any investment into private companies can be made with contract agreement that should the company fail, then GoI takes over the capital assets. The investment in defense production has long term yields. At some point you have to sh!t or get off the pot. Half measures will only ensure India remains a regional power and one that can't project its power beyond.

Once investments have been made, then opposition parties must come around to the same thinking due to vested political interests in manufacturing. The current GoI is not guaranteed to return to power in 2024. Electoral politics is fickle.
we did not "intervene" in srilanka, nepal, bhutan, afghanistan and POK ( after the cheeni deployments/encroachments via the BRI)

we "intervened" in beediland (1971) and it was a right royal dog's breakfast of an "intervention". look at the mess it has created for us. My handsome german shepherd would have easily out done IG and her idiotic team at the negotiating table in shimla.

IG's so called "vision" was limited to dynasty and self preservation and regarding matters strategic and geopolitical, she hadn't the faintest clue

we partially "intervened" in srilanka because a woke "central casting" prime minister got conned into it. Paid the price for it too. Sad for the soldiers that he foolishly and wantonly sacrificed. Their shattered faimlies still continue to pay the price for that needless foolishness even today.

we are not cut out for global or soooper power machinations.

All our weapons are strategically defensive in deployment, dogma, and doctrine.

we are like a dharmic tortoise onlee, content to swim alone, happiest when not bothered, and occasionally stick the neck out to take in the passing scenery while carrying a heavily armoured shell for self protection.

yes, we do get aggressive but only when pushed well beyond our rather wide tolerance limits. This has been our story for many centuries past. No indication that this stance will change anytime soon. We had traitors and jaichands then as indeed we do now.

we are quite happy to be a regional power but alas, only a harmless vegetarian one.

By all means, develop an excellent MIC but pipedreams of global power will remain just that, a wispy and surreal pipedream.

We just do not have the stomach for vengeance and unprovoked aggression, the two prime adharmic traits of any soooper power worth its name
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by S_Madhukar »

I love the diplomatic chops we bring when we say we want to keep Russia on our side. Everyone knows we won’t have a great MIC yet and it makes sense to taper our foreign reliance and may be only buy cutting edge stuff from them.

But I hope IA and MoD also recall that no amount of diplomatic chops in playing one European power with the other stopped us from being colonised to the point we even forgot how to group and fight after 1857. All strategy and no muscle is no good. By that time the other side moved to guns and we were forgetting how to sword fight.

An Indian citizen should have the confidence that if needed tomorrow we have a decent MIC that will produce weapons en masse to fight a modern war … heck even North Korea does better than us in this regard and even Bakis.

Seems to me that since the Mughals or Abdali or even now with UT and SS etc. our hopeless leaders are rather used to the idea of using an external or foreign crutch instead of not compromising and standing on our own feet. Easy to sell something or someone instead of doing the hard work and standing on one’s own feet. Unless that mentality changes nothing will

Also expect such nincompoop strategies until our MoD and babus and forces actually “professionalise” . Not many in our country are yet exposed to modern ways of thinking and working unless they work in services or manufacturing
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

ramana wrote: Vivek K, Don't lose your cool and get banned. It is not the armed forces but the GOI that makes such decisions.
Ramana - strange that we threaten to ban people for being in favor of their country over others. But that is the admins' prerogative. And I need to I guess learn the full range of Indian actions to learn more about why we're where we are. So though I may disagree, I certainly can understand your reasons.
ramana wrote: Large arms purchases are always political.
Did you mean all over the world or in India? In India large arms purchases are mostly used to fund party treasuries. That is the only politics involved domestically. You may have meant "geopolitics" which i understand in the current context as "buying friends". Such friends always have the option to go against you like the Russians supplying engines for the JF-17 or MI-IV helos to PAF. Is it better to base your geopolitics on appeasement / purchases? Or on shared threat perceptions?
ramana wrote:And let us see the balance of forces.
A light tank in Laddkah will get shot up with just a 30mm cannon and possibly block our own troops if it's the lead tank.
So you need good armour.
Good analogy but I'm not sure what you're hinting at? A tank weighing 35 tons will cause just as much trouble in the hills as a 50 ton or more tank if it is the lead tank. Can you get "good armor protection" in a "light tank"? You would have to have a compromise somewhere. But how does this go against the Arjun? Unless you're saying that India is buying 460 T-90s for the mountains?
ramana wrote:Once that's settled, note the GOI just gave a 118 Arjun order to Avadi.
So they cannot crank out more.
Then it leaves imports only if you want to fight the Chinese in Ladakh.
Great because we cannot produce more than 118 tanks, we should give a 460 tank order to Russia? Why not we increase our own order to 460? In any case the 460 T-90 will not come in time for the current battle so why cover a bad decision by the Army?
ramana wrote:Next, it better be compatible to reduce the logistic trail in IA>
So you narrow down on T 90.
That takes the cake brother! If you don't order anything other than the T-90, then of course your logistics are simple. Why order then even the 118 Arjuns?
ramana wrote:And it keeps Russia on the Indian side in picking a side versus China.
QED.
It is not about the industrial base but about reducing incentives for China to attack.
But you come to the real reason here - we're using arms purchases to buy friends. BTW China's economy is bigger than ours. Any orders we can place with the Russians, the Chinese can place with them too. But a better thread to base our friendship with Russia is the common threat perception vis-à-vis China. It is in the Russians' interest to not let the Chinese become stronger than Russia. But perhaps the Chinese will exceed Russian military capabilities.

In the end, building your own capabilities up will keep India secure - not such appeasements. But my 2 paise!
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by AkshaySG »

Looking at the some of the previous posts here I do feel that sometimes we can be a little too emotional about arms purchases... Sometimes these transactions are just transactions and there is no need to attach deep geopolitical consequences when there aren't any

To put it simply.. Just because we bought a weapon system from "X" country does not mean that they owe us or we owe them, Goods and services were exchanged for money and that can be that.

India - Russia deals are one the best examples of this, Yes Russia sold us certain weapons that other countries wouldn't and have supported us in some areas but we too have supported their arms/defense industry by paying top price for deals and buying in big numbers. We have continued to be non aligned when every major economy was pivoting towards pro American sentiments
Last edited by AkshaySG on 17 Nov 2021 05:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you AkshaySG :)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Vivek K I see you are being dense on purpose. Not going to argue with you.
Sorry I had to engage you thinking you want to reason.
My fault.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by venkat_kv »

Mort Walker wrote:The public sector companies have not been infused with billions like foreign contracts. The deal for the Rafales was a G-to-G contract signed in 2016 and all deliveries will happen by April 2022. Some 6 years later. If the investment was made in HAL, then the same time frame would have delivered at least 72 LCA Tejas Mk1 and 1A. .
Mort Saar,
I think you are arguing with hindsight 20/20 here. In 2016 Mk1A was still in planning stages, we are still no where close to making MK1A flying as a part of squadrons. We only had MK1 with a long list of improvements list from Airforce and credit to HAL that has worked and got most of those worked to air force's satisfaction. Even if you had placed an order say in 2016 you would still get those from 2019-2020 and with covid we would still have fewer than Rafales as we are scaling, but moving forward we would probably have outpaced them. Investment in HAL is going on in parallel where HAL is becoming lead integrator and other private companies (like VEM technologies) are coming up with the work.

all of these need structural changes as opposed to signing a file and saying it is done. it will again need sec. level guys asking for progress with continuous monitoring. It will face stiff opposition from entrenched unions within HAL who will see it as usurping their turf. All of this have to be handled carefully or it will have a domino effect of stopping the modernisation process itself with Congress and its coterie braying from rooftops, although they have not done anything for HAL itself during their tenure other than parking money in the bank and earning interests.

I will echo Chetak Saar and other poster words that forces fight with what they think is mature and ready and what is available to them as of now. rafale was that product in 2016 and was selected to arrest the declining squadron numbers. Maybe by 2023 we will be looking at Tejas MK1A in the same way.

Mods if this has to be moved to Mil thread and doesn't belong here please move to the appropriate thread. thanks in advance.
Last edited by venkat_kv on 17 Nov 2021 09:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by venkat_kv »

Vivek K wrote:Obviously Russia needs these orders after Covid's impact. But so does India. If the shoe were on the other foot, would Russia close its own factories and place an order with India? When you make friends used to illogical actions, it spoils the friendship. No one shuts their domestic industry to place orders abroad. Like the current gen of posters and admins on BRF say - there is a large enough market then it should be lucrative enough for purchase of components and technologies from friendly nations to foster our domestic MIC and move India towards economic security and sovereign decision making with the Indian products allowing adequate quantities of weapons to counter multiple threats to territorial security.
Vivek Saar,
I do appreciate your passion for desi MIC, i really do, but the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves, sure they can be nudged in certain ways, a la Parrikar Saab did with Tejas or the previous dispensation did with respect to buying foreign stuff to fill party and personal coffers.

Also I would like to point out that it was Ajit Doval somewhere in 2015-2016 mentioned that tanks are not seen as a future for warfare. The assault will be led by air force, drones and helicopters with tanks taking a secondary role. This has lead to tanks being relegated to a lower role.

One of the main reason Arjun tanks being ordered late is the engine being produced here. I think we had news of a 1500hp engine being manufactured in India and about a few months later we have the order for Arjun tanks coming in (maybe its a coincidence and I reading tad too much). There seems to be a concerted effort to get a few of the important part of the MIC manufactured in India itself or atleast license produced.

Coming to the crux of your argument, we hear a lot from time to time that India is purchasing from Russia, but we haven't bought anything yet other than strategic purchases of S-400, nuclear sub leasing and an Ak203 license manufacture (this item is a surprise for me).

We haven't bought the KA-226 or the SU or Mig-35 or even the stealth fighters, though the news seem to be coming every now and then. We seem to be having some discussions with the russians regarding platforms and are deciding based on price and other factors and it looks like either the middle men here or from Russia there are releasing these talks and the internet creates a news on it own.

I would just be happy if we can get the airforce Mig29 and Su-30 for now to make up for the shortfall so the mrfa circus doesn't have to be propped up.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Manish_P »

venkat_kv wrote:
..the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves...
Well said, Venkat ji. However please note that the recommendations of the forces have to be completely unbiased, pragmatic and tied-in with the overall strategic goals of the nation. No nation became a self-sufficient superpower, able to support it's own men and defend it's territory, by importing the bulk of its weapons, especially knowing that most suppliers are purely transactional and will supply to your opponent just as well.
Also I would like to point out that it was Ajit Doval somewhere in 2015-2016 mentioned that tanks are not seen as a future for warfare. The assault will be led by air force, drones and helicopters with tanks taking a secondary role. This has lead to tanks being relegated to a lower role.
A question.. if Tanks are relegated to a lower role (defensive? Holding sanitised enemy territory? ) then why not go with the desi alternative, even if it is not a good as the foreign stuff.. Yes it might be costlier (again debatable) but at least a good portion of the money stays in Desh, pumped back into the economy...
Coming to the crux of your argument, we hear a lot from time to time that India is purchasing from Russia, but we haven't bought anything yet other than strategic purchases of S-400, nuclear sub leasing and an Ak203 license manufacture (this item is a surprise for me).
Then perhaps these purchases are just payments to sweeten the deal for buying the strategic stuff which the others won't supply us.. or like another informed poster said - some transactions are just that, mere transactions.
I would just be happy if we can get the airforce Mig29 and Su-30 for now to make up for the shortfall so the mrfa circus doesn't have to be propped up.
Agreed. Better to buy more of these or more of the strategic stuff to try and keep the Russians as our 'friends', while supporting (developing, buying, improving) our own basic products.

The catch however is that, unless the Chinese economy is a well-concealed bubble which will implode soon (or we significantly increase the % share of our GDP on defense buying), the Chinese will continue to out-spend us in buying things from the Russians and keeping them happy to be on their side of the fence.

OTOH if their economy is really and fundamentally solid and their efforts in tech research/development are true and continues growing (leading to less and less orders for the Russian stuff) then Russia might be more inclined to support Desh as a counter in the future..
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by venkat_kv »

Manish_P wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:
..the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves...
Well said, Venkat ji. However please note that the recommendations of the forces have to be completely unbiased, pragmatic and tied-in with the overall strategic goals of the nation. No nation became a self-sufficient superpower, able to support it's own men and defend it's territory, by importing the bulk of its weapons, especially knowing that most suppliers are purely transactional and will supply to your opponent just as well.
Also I would like to point out that it was Ajit Doval somewhere in 2015-2016 mentioned that tanks are not seen as a future for warfare. The assault will be led by air force, drones and helicopters with tanks taking a secondary role. This has lead to tanks being relegated to a lower role.
A question.. if Tanks are relegated to a lower role (defensive? Holding sanitised enemy territory? ) then why not go with the desi alternative, even if it is not a good as the foreign stuff.. Yes it might be costlier (again debatable) but at least a good portion of the money stays in Desh, pumped back into the economy...
Coming to the crux of your argument, we hear a lot from time to time that India is purchasing from Russia, but we haven't bought anything yet other than strategic purchases of S-400, nuclear sub leasing and an Ak203 license manufacture (this item is a surprise for me).
Then perhaps these purchases are just payments to sweeten the deal for buying the strategic stuff which the others won't supply us.. or like another informed poster said - some transactions are just that, mere transactions.
I would just be happy if we can get the airforce Mig29 and Su-30 for now to make up for the shortfall so the mrfa circus doesn't have to be propped up.
Agreed. Better to buy more of these or more of the strategic stuff to try and keep the Russians as our 'friends', while supporting (developing, buying, improving) our own basic products.

The catch however is that, unless the Chinese economy is a well-concealed bubble which will implode soon (or we significantly increase the % share of our GDP on defense buying), the Chinese will continue to out-spend us in buying things from the Russians and keeping them happy to be on their side of the fence.

OTOH if their economy is really and fundamentally solid and their efforts in tech research/development are true and continues growing (leading to less and less orders for the Russian stuff) then Russia might be more inclined to support Desh as a counter in the future..
Manish P Saar,
that of course goes without saying that forces need to be giving unbiased reviews and MOD needs to focus on diligently working to create the defense of the nation - including building own MIC and purchasing weapons for armed forces in timely manner. but people get swayed by earlier treatment or what they see in brochures. If past posters account were to be taken into account the forces had terrible experience with the OFB and they pretty much had a captive customer. Any poster here will not go and buy a car or consumable just because its manufactured in India even if they had poor experience with the product and its after sales service. things seem to be moving towards better, but as we jingoes seem to want it, it could be faster.

Coming to the tanks question, my guess is that since it is relegated to a lower priority the R&D keeps going on with each item being ticked off sequentially and no new tanks are ordered as we have a limited budget for acquisitions. And when the push comes to shove, we then make a "strategic purchase" to put all and sundry in our corner.

The MOD should actually ask as to why an OFB manufactured Arjun is not acceptable over quality issues while the same OFB manufacturing T-series are ok. In order to solve this issue the MOD with a sec. level bureaucrat should have a meeting with the Armoured force chaps and OFB sitting together and iron out the issue and trying to get a working set of proposal after which they will take the tank, a kind of proposal for tejas from MK1 to MK1A and no excuses given after that. Getting 118 or 236 order and then work on the next iteration while the OFB works to fulfill this order in the next five years.

In the absence of this, posters blaming OFB, Forces or one or the other is counterproductive I feel.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Tanaji »

I do appreciate your passion for desi MIC, i really do, but the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves, sure they can be nudged in certain ways, a la Parrikar Saab did with Tejas or the previous dispensation did with respect to buying foreign stuff to fill party and personal coffers.
I have another view of this. No politician worth his salt will go against the recommendation of the armed forces. So if the armed forces rank something as Athos > K9 > Atags and say Atags needs summer, winter, rainy and new moon trials, no MoD or politician will go against it. And why does that happen? Former vets who are now dealer representatives work with active personnel to ensure desi systems get ridiculous amounts of trials, no doubt at the behest of politicos. On one hand trials itself for a developmental system are good, but only as much that the foreign system is subjected to as well. This does not happen in India.

So at the risk of channelling Kajri, “Sab mile hue hain ji”
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Manish_P »

venkat_kv wrote:..

Coming to the tanks question, my guess is that since it is relegated to a lower priority the R&D keeps going on with each item being ticked off sequentially and no new tanks are ordered as we have a limited budget for acquisitions..
But new tanks are being ordered, sir. 460 of them...
The MOD should actually ask as to why an OFB manufactured Arjun is not acceptable over quality issues while the same OFB manufacturing T-series are ok.


Good point. Here the user simply states that the desi prototype product is not meeting the staff requirements in the first place - it needs 'n' improvements, quality issues by OFB will come much later (if it gets there at all - after all the rounds of trials post each improvement).

This usually doesn't happen to firang systems because -

a) the certification that the system is given by that country and is taken a gospel truth. Any issues, when they inevitably arise later are put down to difference in climate, poor training levels, bad maintenance by SDREs etc etc.

and

b) the 'requirement-test-requirement' loop of trials, for desi products, are used as a way to take so much time that the GoI is pushed into a fait accompli vis-a-vis the urgency of procurement of a 'proven' product from outside. If the product itself is new then justification is given that manufacturer is a long time entity and hence there is no risk that the product will be a dud.

Note - An eye-opener surprise for me was the PAKFA/FGFA thing, where the GoI/IAF quit the project when they finally realised that it was just not worth the high price of investment if we were not being given access to the R&D..
In order to solve this issue the MOD with a sec. level bureaucrat should have a meeting with the Armoured force chaps and OFB sitting together and iron out the issue and trying to get a working set of proposal after which they will take the tank
I do think some attempts of this sort was initiated by the Government, don't know how the Babudom took it off the rails (recollect Namos statement about the babudom wasting the first five years of his term).. if they have the will then will find ways to do it.. even if they might not know the difference between gross weight and ground-pressure.

But I am well aware that this is a very long process. A generational change, if one might call it that. Starts have been made, for instance the privatization of the OFB (starting with its 'corporatisation') and I remain hopeful. Even cautiously optimistic.

However it is the risky, almost fickle nature of our democracy that fills me with a sense of almost desperate urgency. What if the NDA loses power before these changes get implemented and rooted in. The old dalals and power-brokers will be back in action in the corridors of power before BRF has even closed the thread on the analysis of the elections..
In the absence of this, posters blaming OFB, Forces or one or the other is counterproductive I feel.
I agree. Which is why I try not to whine as I would when I was a newbie here.. But every few years it just gets to me :( Anyway as I said before, I remain cautiously optimistic and a hopeful jingo forever. So last from me on this for the time being.
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