India-Russia: News & Analysis

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JCage
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Post by JCage »

Whatever these rtd navy types in think tanks say...do the opposite.
Somehow, while the Navy itself has the most fwd looking people, when they retire, the weirdest get into writing and bar the occasional Arun Prakash, the rest seem to become flag wavers for Uncle Sam and then experts writing for the Indian express/ TOI etc. Even with the Gorshkov issue and other irritants, these guys should be asking the Navy and MOD to review their planning as well, but they havent done so. No hard questions of why Indian shipbuilding stagnated, why we still cant fund our scientific community to pvt sector wage standards...none of these, instead we sit and crib about Russia.
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Post by Shrwan »

Let US agree to supply us LA class nuclear boats, help us in developing more advanced ATV, give us full ToT for latest blockTomhawk CM, then we can think over sinking the Russian boat .
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Post by p_saggu »

[quote="JaiS"]
“With India we cooperate in ... dual-purpose systems, ... Indian experts are working at some of our mission control centers,â€
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Post by Igorr »

[quote="p_saggu"][quote="JaiS"]
“With India we cooperate in ... dual-purpose systems, ... Indian experts are working at some of our mission control centers,â€
p_saggu
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Post by p_saggu »

Thanks Igorr, and a Happy New Year to You.
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Post by asprinzl »

JCage wrote:
Whatever these rtd navy types in think tanks say...do the opposite.
Somehow, while the Navy itself has the most fwd looking people, when they retire, the weirdest get into writing and bar the occasional Arun Prakash, the rest seem to become flag wavers for Uncle Sam and then experts writing for the Indian express/ TOI etc. Even with the Gorshkov issue and other irritants, these guys should be asking the Navy and MOD to review their planning as well, but they havent done so. No hard questions of why Indian shipbuilding stagnated, why we still cant fund our scientific community to pvt sector wage standards...none of these, instead we sit and crib about Russia.
I think I know how this things happen. After retirement, they probably get invited to a seminar or two to the USA to give a lecture or two at the various military/strategic studies communities or institutions and they get hooked.

I was at the Manicured Lawn (Upper East section of Central Park) with a lady friend a few months ago. There was this retired Indian military officer on a wheel chair. He was being pushed around by a preety decent looking Turkish lady. (I heard her speaking in Turkish on her cellphone). Before long he was giving her a major lecture on Asian culture. Then he progressed to how superior the Asian culture is over European culture ( ala Malaysia's Mahathir ) and his disappoinment at Turkey's desire to join the EU by abandoning their Asiatic culture.

Soon, he was talking to her about his military service. He finally touched on the need for India to be a strategic partner of the USA, how he wanted India to forget Russia. It was a lovely merry go round kinda logic and explanation. He was contradicting himself two three sentences down the line a few times.

In general terms, he sounded well informed and from the whole conversation, he sounded like he had been around in the lecture circuit quite a while.
Otherwise How could he afford a much younger European (Turkish) caretaker with his Indian military pension?

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Post by Igorr »

Yes, Asprinzl, the system of lectures and 'grants' - is a legal corruption system indeed. The Russian Parlament BTW prohibited in 2005 for all goverment service men to make any 'lection-tours' etc. at all.
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Post by Gerard »

For whatever reason, the Indian Navy seems to produce a higher proportion of retired officers who supplement their pensions with NGO grant money after they turn peacenik....
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Post by asprinzl »

Igorr wrote:Yes, Asprinzl, the system of lectures and 'grants' - is a legal corruption system indeed. The Russian Parlament BTW prohibited in 2005 for all goverment service men to make any 'lection-tours' etc. at all.
I remember Dimitri Volkogonov. He wrote a few books including about the KGB and was on the lecture circuit peddling his books. Folks in the CIA read the book on KGB. And they put two and two together. Viola!!. They busted three Americans who used to be Soviet moles in the 50s.

That was not very smart of General Dimitri.

Strangely, I now hear that India wants her secret assets in Pakistan to help Musharaf. The idea is supposedly to be done without exposing oneself. Hmm.......people can put two and two together and can come up with solid clues. Intel ops is basically not genius at play but mostly hard work and long hours spent piecing together clues and shreds of other information. As long as you spend time and effort, you will arrive at approximate destination. From there is just a matter of time to get your bogey.

When it comes to national security, exposing yourself is dangerous. Same goes to sending your high tech plane to exercise with questionable friends.
Ok, you turn off your radar or disable it. What about careless discussion with maintenance crews after a round of beef and ego stroking praises? Tech Manuals/Service Manuals? Parts list? Just one slip or carelessness and its OOPS I GOOFETH UP.

Smart people can put two and two together. Ultra smart people will know how to put together two, two, two and two if need be.

Lecture circuits are surely dangerous.
Avram
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Post by Igorr »

Some interesting views from RussiaTuday channеl:

1) Inside Russian submarine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CNR6LS0YRo&sdig=1
2) Russian Hercules http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCP9t1OqHUQ&feature=user
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Post by Rony »

RUSSIAN-INDIAN ROW OVER TAJIK BASE SUGGESTS MOSCOW CAUGHT IN DIPLOMATIC VICIOUS CYCLE
India’s strategic ambitions in Central Asia are in flux after Russia reversed an earlier stance, and now opposes the deployment of Indian military jets to an air base in Tajikistan. Russian displeasure over India’s strategic drift toward the United States appears to be the primary reason for the Kremlin’s policy shift.

India and Russia have traditionally had cordial relations, underpinned by New Delhi’s status as a prime buyer of Russian-made arms and military equipment. These strong ties enabled the Kremlin to sanction India’s efforts to establish a strategic beachhead in Central Asia, specifically at a Tajik air base at Ayni, about 15 kilometers outside the capital Dushanbe, and at a medical facility in Farkhor, near the Tajik-Afghan border. India has maintained a presence at the Ayni base since 2002, spending an estimated $1.77 million on upgrading the facility.

From New Delhi’s standpoint, seeking a permanent presence in Central Asia makes both economic and strategic sense. It would improve India’s response capability to a crisis in either Afghanistan or Pakistan, as well as potentially help India’s efforts to secure wider access to Central Asian energy supplies.

As recently as mid-2006, reports were circulating that New Delhi was on the verge of deploying as many as 12 MiG fighter-bombers at Ayni -- a development that would mark the establishment of India’s first military base beyond its borders. The deployment was initially delayed due to problems with India’s ability to upgrade Ayni. The base was not capable of accommodating the jets until mid 2007, when renovations were finally completed about two years behind schedule.

At about the same time in 2006 that India was contemplating MiG deployment, Russian and Indian diplomats opened discussions on the possibility of enlarging the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), and on India’s possible role within the group. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. By engaging India, Moscow seemed clearly interested in trying to check rising Chinese influence in Central Asia, especially given China’s own efforts to establish a military presence in the region, and for Beijing’s refusal to turn the Shanghai Cooperation Organization into a military alliance.

When India was finally ready to proceed with making Ayni fully operational, Russia was having second thoughts. And during the latter half of 2007, Moscow let it be known that it not only opposed Indian deployment, but it also began pressuring President Imomali Rahmon’s administration in Dushanbe to revoke Indian access to the base. About 150 Indian military personnel, mainly engineers and support staff, have been stationed at Ayni.

Russia’s policy change, according to analysts, is connected to possible shifts in the international arms market. Available sources in India strongly suggest that Moscow is concerned that New Delhi is becoming too close to the United States in general, and, in particular, too close to US defense firms. Over the next few years India is scheduled to buy $40 billion in weapons systems from foreign providers, and already it has released a tender for 126 fighter jets. Military aircraft manufacturers, including the US giants Boeing, General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin, have until late February to submit bids. The American firms are competing against Russia’s Mikoyan Design Bureau, maker of the "MiG" line of combat aircraft.

Indian sources believe that Moscow’s pressure on Dushanbe reflects its anger and apprehension that a valued and long-standing client, namely India, might well turn to Russia’s main rival in the weapons business. This would be a significant loss to Russia’s defense industry since India has been the Russian defense industry’s largest client and longest-serving customer.

Difficulties with recent arms purchases and negotiations have helped spur speculation that India might look elsewhere for weapons. With Moscow’s coffers filled with oil money, the Russian military is in the process of giving itself a total make-over after falling into a state of decay following the Soviet collapse in 1991. Russian defense manufacturers are presently having a tough time keeping up with domestic demand, and this is causing serious delays in the meeting of its export obligations to countries like India and China. In addition to delays, Indian officials have reportedly been miffed by the shoddy quality of some recent deliveries, and Russian efforts to drag out ongoing negotiations in order to extract a higher price.

Given the pattern established by Moscow in its energy dealings, the Ayni base matter may well be Russia’s not-so-subtle way of threatening New Delhi: Either give Mikoyan the military jet contract, or else kiss the base goodbye.

Beyond attempting to pressure both local governments and third parties outside Central Asia by squeezing their interests there, Moscow’s stance toward India betrays growing apprehension about the Kremlin’s geopolitical influence in Central Asia. It is clear that Moscow wishes to have controlling influence over the region’s political and economic affairs. But after experiencing a rapid rise in its influence in 2005-2006, Russian influence may again be on the ebb, as the region’s wealth of energy resources is providing political leaders, especially those in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, with leverage to resist Russian pressure.

As recent energy deals with Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan show, it is costing Russia ever more money to obtain energy form Central Asia. Central Asian governments are all increasingly able to conduct a "multi-vector" foreign policy, playing off regional powers -- including Russia, China, the United States, and even India -- for the maximum political and economic benefit.

In Tajikistan’s case, Dushanbe does not enjoy anywhere near the same level of foreign policy latitude as has been achieved by some of its bigger neighbors, namely Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Even so, Rahmon’s administration has grown more confident in itself over the past few years, as it has managed to establish a tight grip over domestic political life. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Thus, Moscow’s efforts to bully India, and by extension Tajikistan, could easily emerge as a source of irritation in Russian-Tajik relations.

Ultimately, the Ayni base issue highlights the fact that Russia may be caught up in a vicious diplomatic cycle, in which it must rely increasingly on coercion in order to get erstwhile loyal friends and neighbors to go along with the Kremlin’s economic and strategic wishes. Such a cycle can spin for only so long before it experiences a breakdown.


Editor’s Note: Stephen Blank is a professor at the US Army War College. The views expressed this article do not in any way represent the views of the US Army, Defense Department or the US Government.
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Post by UPrabhu »

JCage wrote:
Whatever these rtd navy types in think tanks say...do the opposite.
Somehow, while the Navy itself has the most fwd looking people, when they retire, the weirdest get into writing and bar the occasional Arun Prakash, the rest seem to become flag wavers for Uncle Sam and then experts writing for the Indian express/ TOI etc. Even with the Gorshkov issue and other irritants, these guys should be asking the Navy and MOD to review their planning as well, but they havent done so. No hard questions of why Indian shipbuilding stagnated, why we still cant fund our scientific community to pvt sector wage standards...none of these, instead we sit and crib about Russia.
I think that's to compensate for the lack of income, result of denial of opportunity to get lobbied in Navy. May be they think, what's harm in doing this after retirement.. as it is Indian state has no strategic vision, where is the question of us retired officers influencing anything on behalf of Uncle?
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Post by Vick »

Stating that India needs to diversify its sources of military equipment and not be overly reliant on Russia is not waiving the US flag. Bhaskar doesn't even mention the US in that piece. India having strategic relations with Russia and the US is not a zero sum game.

In other news, Russian vehicle maker Maz is coming to India.
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Post by Rudranathh »

Rony wrote:RUSSIAN-INDIAN ROW OVER TAJIK BASE SUGGESTS MOSCOW CAUGHT IN DIPLOMATIC VICIOUS CYCLE

Editor’s Note: Stephen Blank is a professor at the US Army War College. The views expressed this article do not in any way represent the views of the US Army, Defense Department or the US Government.
Hee Hee, An US army war college professor is crying about worsening India-Russia relations. That means that the opposite is true.
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Post by viveks »

Maintaining a balance between 2 extremes is highly arduous. You win some ....you loose some.
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Post by JCage »

Vick wrote:Stating that India needs to diversify its sources of military equipment and not be overly reliant on Russia is not waiving the US flag. Bhaskar doesn't even mention the US in that piece. India having strategic relations with Russia and the US is not a zero sum game.

In other news, Russian vehicle maker Maz is coming to India.
That piece may be innocuous. But the general trend in articles by some of these rtd types over the Indo-US nuke deal ("at all costs"), general contempt for investing in local R&D (not necessary, lets do JV with US), peace with Pak (we must and should do it), ....is inescapable. Dont appear to be batting for Indian interests. Bhaskar may be an exception, but there are several of these guys- especially one based out of Singapore now who are definitely no longer in the indian camp..alone.
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Post by Rony »

JCage wrote: Bhaskar may be an exception, but there are several of these guys- especially one based out of Singapore now who are definitely no longer in the indian camp..alone.
Rajamohan ?
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Post by kuldipchager »

This guy Basker keep saying think again,think again,seems like he speaking cia tune.If on any issue,We need to use VETO in united Nation issue like regarding pakistan,Is any nation beside RUSSIA will VETO for India.
Defence Relation with Russia takes Years to Built,I don't think,We can change or Walk Away.

THOBHEE KA KUTA<NA GHER KA NA GHAAT KA.
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Post by ramana »

Get a grip. Comodore Uday Bhaskar was former Deputy Director IDSA and is not your average retd chap. he knows his stuff. he is cautioning prudence. Just like the striking workers at GM say "There is a Ford in our future".
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Post by Philip »

Another item about the ongoing Indo-Russian "chill".Objectively,if weapon systems don't work,don't accept them.The precedent HAS been set before over the Talwar frigate's Shtil missile malfunctioning.Klub failures have been discussed before in depth.However,in refusing to accept the product ,one can do it privately,without fanfare.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india-refus ... 293-3.html

SUBMARINE ROW: India says INS Sindhuvijay’s cruise missile had not performed up to parameters.

Antony snubs Navy Chief over ties with Russia
Antony overrules Navy Chief, says no need for review of defence ties with Russia

No dealings on aircraft with Russia: Indian Navy
Russia hikes aircraft price, India refuses to buy it
Featured Slideshows

New Delhi: On the heels of the deadlock over the pricing of Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, India has refused to take delivery of the latest submarine INS Sindhuvijay from Russia, saying its cruise missile had not performed up to parameters.


The Navy refused to take delivery of the Sindhuvijay, which completed refit at a shipyard near St Petersburg, after its missiles failed to find their targets in six consecutive test firings, a news magazine reported.


The pre-delivery test firings were carried out between September and November.


"The 50-man crew sent to Russia to sail back with the submarine is set to return to India with the Naval brass taking a stern line by asking the shipyard to rectify the problem before it takes delivery of the sub", the magazine said.


The land attack cruise missile flies over 300 km and delivers a 400 kg warhead to its target with pinpoint accuracy. Naval officials said it would take another year to rectify the defects and prove it in firing trials.


In a contract signed in 2001, India had sent ten Kilo class submarines to Russia for upgradation to make them capable of firing the Klub class land attack cruise missiles.


Sindhuvijay was only the second Indian submarine to be fitted with land attack variants of the missiles. India has purchased 28 Klub class missiles from Russia in 2006 for Rs 844 crore.


Anti-ship variants of the missiles failed in repeated test firings in Indian waters with experts finding the fault to the submarines gyro.


India is now turning to France for new gyros to make the missiles perform in Indian conditions.


Defence Minister A K Antony had told PTI on Wednesday hat though negotiations were on, the deadlock over the delivery of the Gorshkov were still remained to be resolved.


Citing time and costs overruns, Russia had asked for a whooping extra $1.2 billion for the warship, which was scheduled to be delivered in August this year.


The delivery of the carrier has already been pushed back to 2012-13.


India and Russia had a similar spat over the delivery of upgraded IL-38 maritime reconissance aircraft when the Navy complained that its dragon suite were not working to parameters.


The deliveries were only taken after Russian rectified the suites.
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Post by Gerard »

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Post by Philip »

Russia's most notorious mafia boss has been arrested.He is also wanted in the UK, but will Russia extradite him in exchange for Berezovsky?

Russia's most notorious mafia boss arrested in Moscow
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/articl ... 87,00.html

Luke Harding in Moscow and agencies
Friday January 25, 2008
Guardian Unlimited


Detectives in Moscow this morning confirmed they had arrested Russia's most notorious mafia boss, who is wanted by both the US and UK authorities for his alleged involvement in decades of major international crime.
Police swooped on Semyon Mogilevich late yesterday evening when he emerged from a business meeting at Moscow's World Trade Centre. They also arrested his business partner, Vladimir Nekrasov, a millionaire Russian businessman.

Mogilevich's arrest appears to bring to an end one of the most colourful and picaresque criminal careers of modern times - involving money laundering, drugs, prostitution, smuggling, uranium, stolen icons, and international banking fraud.

FBI officials claim Mogilevich - a 61-year-old Ukrainian born Russian citizen - is a major figure in the world of the international mafia. He is wanted in the US on numerous charges including racketeering, securities and mail fraud.
Today Russian police said Mogilevich had been detained under one of his many aliases, Sergei Schneider. The mafia boss uses 17 other names and holds passports from several different countries, including Ukraine, Russia and Israel, they added.

Photos in this morning's Russian papers reveal Mogilevich to be a thickset man in late middle age. A photo in the Vremya Novosti newspaper shows him fiddling with a pen, a giant waistcoat encasing his considerable girth.

A Moscow court approved his formal arrest this morning. Last night's police operation was made in connection with an investigation into an alleged tax evasion scheme by the owners of Arbat Prestige, a lucrative chain of Russian cosmetic stores.

Around 50 police commandos grabbed Mogilevich on the street near a supermarket along with Nekrasov, Arbat Prestige's majority owner. The two men, who were accompanied by bodyguards, surrendered without a fight.

Mogilevich's criminal CV is a lengthy one. According to US and British investigators he is believed to control the world's largest Russian mafia syndicate.

Born in Ukraine, and nicknamed the Brainy Don - he has an economics degree - he joined a Moscow crime gang in the early 1970s, and was jailed twice for petty theft and fraud.

In the 1980s, Mogilevich bought up the properties of Russian Jews emigrating to Israel - promising to send on the funds. The money, however, never arrived. In the post-communist 1990s he transferred the base of his criminal operations to Hungary.

Here, Mogilevich was involved in a network of prostitution and smuggling, living in a fortified villa outside Budapest. He even bought a factory producing anti-aircraft guns.

His mafia syndicate was also involved in trading art and antiques allegedly stolen from museums and churches across the former Soviet bloc.

Mogilevich's most sophisticated alleged fraud took place in Russia in 1994 when he took control of Inkombank, one of Russia's largest private banks. It collapsed in 1998 under suspicions of money funnelling.

The FBI put him on its most wanted list in 2003. The US charges stem from a 2003 indictment in Philadelphia in which he is accused of manipulating the stock of a Pennsylvania-based company, YBM Magnex Inc.

In an interview with a Russian newspaper in 1999, Mogilevich, however, denied the FBI's claims, describing them as "delirious ravings".

This morning a spokeswoman for the Moscow bureau of Interpol, Tatiana Trunayeva, said that Mogilevich had been arrested - but not in connection with the US charges. "This arrest was not made at Interpol's request," she told the Guardian.

In recent years Mogilevich appears to have lived a semi-open life in Moscow. It is not clear why the Russian authorities have failed to arrest him before.

Today's Russian papers said he had been living as a guest in the Ukraine hotel - a vast Stalin-era edifice visible from across the Russian capital.
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Post by Rony »

'Russia reneging on transferring Brahmos technology'
After Russia back-pedalled on transferring technology for the production here of the T-90 main battle tank (MBT), a hiatus seems to have emerged over transferring 'total' technology for the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile that Russia is jointly developing with India.

'We have not got full technology for the transfer of the (missile's) engines,' C.G. Krishnadas Nair, a former chairman of state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), said at a seminar here that Defence Minister A.K. Antony inaugurated.

'We must have access to total technology. This denial is a serious matter,' Nair, who is the founder-chairman of Society of Defence Technologists (SODET), maintained.

'No one should hold the other to ransom,' he contended, clearly implying that Russia was holding back the technology for the missile's engine.
SODET brings together technologists of defence public sector undertakings, ordnance factory boards and military inspection establishments.

Nair was delivering the keynote address at the SODET-sponsored two-day national seminar on Defence R&D and Technology Management.

The defence minister refused to be drawn into the issue.

'What can I say? I have only just heard this,' Antony told IANS on the sidelines of the seminar.
However, A. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO of BrahMos Aerospace that manufactures the missile, disagreed with Nair's contention.

'This is a joint venture. So, there's no question of transfer of technology. Russia manufactures the engines, we manufacture the guidance system and integrate the two,' Pillai said.

'Transfer of technology occurs if the technology is purchased,' he added.

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia have jointly developed the BrahMos, which is named after the Bramaputra and the Moskova, the two major rivers of India and Russia respectively.

Work on the project began in 1998 and the missile was first test fired on Dec 22, 2004. BrahMos is a two-stage missile with a solid propellant booster and a liquid propellant ram jet system that gives it a 300-km range.

The Indian Army is currently preparing to operationalise at least one regiment of the BrahMos missile mounted on a mobile launcher. The triple-barrelled launcher is capable of firing the missile singly or in salvos of two or three.

The Indian Navy has also accepted the BrahMos missile system with an advanced fire control system for its warships. Work is also progressing on an Indian Air Force version that will be delivered from the Sukhoi SU-30MKI platform.

As for the T-90, Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor has admitted that Russia's delays in the technology transfer had pushed back its production here.

'Transfer of technology is a complex process due to different perceptions on either side on what exactly this involves. There have been delays but in the long run, the transfer will take place and indigenous production of the tank will commence,' he said earlier this.

India had purchased 310 of the tanks in 2001 and was to produce under licence another 1,000 T-90s. However, delays in the technology transfer prompted India to sign a contract with Russia in 2006 for 347 tanks to ensure adequate force levels.
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Post by Baljeet »

Mr. Sivathanu Pillai has been at US Lecture Circuit especially with US Army agency responsible to find IED counter measures. I agree with HAL person. Lately, Russians have become more belligerent in honoring their committments. No wonder exception of Oil and some military products they have nothing to trade with.
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Post by Shankar »

UNDERSTANDING RUSSIA -1

With several set backs in Indo -Russian military relationship being highlighted almost every day and US marketing forces trying their best to ruin the half a century old time tested relationship between our two great countries may be it is time we take a fresh look at the enigmatic land called Russia -its people -its vast land mass and its climate and ofcourse its history but not just the history of soviet union but much further back to the days of Ivan and Cathrine and even further to the days of Tatar Mongol invasion and even further back to the settlement of trading posts like Novogorod in the confluence of great rivers to the rise of civilisation itself in the after math of last ice age 26 000 years ago just after the Mammoths became extinct and small bands of humans roamed the vast land inter spaced with large icy marshes no trees and no animals .

To understand Russia we have to know its history about the effect of global warming ( not the present one of course) about the discovery that grass seeds can be crushed and made into food .about the discovery of iron ore in Urals and its peaceful and military use, the development of trading posts and preference of river routes for tared and commerce ,about the integration of Vikings who came to rule a vast land but got assimilated into the native population instead ,the four successive empires the last being the largest world has ever known -the soviet union ,the influence of romans and the greek on russian civilization,the birth and maturing of russian orthodox church ,the reason behind russian judaism

The list is long and very complex and surely fascinating.Why communism was so entrenched in Russia .It was just not political compulsion but also dictated by the short and harsh sowing climate ,the advantage of having large tracts of cultivable land ---

The genetic diffrence of Russians or rather ethnic Russians from other europeans ,the royal political alliances and the consequent pitfalls

And finally what makes the Russians so fearsome fighters as seen by France Germany Mongols and Lithuanians and host of others who dared invade Russia

How the imperial Russia became stronger than ever before after every catastrophic defeat -the emergence of Moscow in 1200

first we need to know the events and only then can try to analyse the Russia today -ar you ready to join me in that interesting road ???
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Post by Shankar »

UNDERSTANDING RUSSIA –2- 26000 YEARS INTO PAST

The territory of European Russia have seen human presence even before the ice age as evidenced by discovery of a grave near Sungir near Vladimir in central Russia.The grave contained remains of a 12 year old boy and a seven year old girl dressed in something like an anorak and leather trousers sewn directly into their moccasin type shoes, some thing like this is still used by Siberians to fight the harsh winter. The clothes were decorated with thousands of shell beads. These along with variety of stone tools, pierced antler rods, ivory bracelets, and spears made from straitened mammoth tusks suggest these kids were possibly offspring of a tribal chief .Anthropologists believe the Sungir remains mark the end rather than the beginning of an era of Russian civilization who disappeared along with mammoths along with the population of rest of Europe.As the intensity of cold increased they either moved off to warmer climate towards the southern edges of the continent or simply died. The territory however got resettled by human population around 16000years back ,

It can be said with reasonable certainty Russians are European by descent confirmed essentially by work of genetic scientists like Dr O Semino wh analyzed the blood samples of 1000 men from all over Europe focusing on Y chromosomes carried only by males. The results of this unique experiment in trying trace the roots of civilization through the genetic route led them to conclude that at the onset of ice age about 24000 years ago the early humans migrated south wards in three directions namely Mediterian(France and Spain),The Balkans and Ukraine. The present day Russians are descendants from the group which migrated to Ukraine
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Post by Shankar »

UNDERSTANDING RUSSIA -3

The ice age did not end quickly and the so called first global warming took place slowly in stages with occasional interruptions when the cold wave returned .Over hundreds of years the glaciers retreated and our earth warmed up faster making herself more habitable. However perm frost stayed on in Tundra region in far north and a large part of Siberia. Even today large tracts of land in Siberia is still deep frozen making running a railway based communication network very difficult. But for rest of the Russia the warming up of climate was followed by increase in humidity level, so very important in creation and sustaining of life. First the plants came back followed by the insects and finally the animals used to living in cold. As larger and larger tracts of land became conductive to life with a flourishing plant and animal life, humans returned too ,to the land abandoned by their ancestors ,at the onset of ice age

At the time of return each group of humanoids or humans carried genetic specific which differed significantly from others. As per data available most of them had a blood type B+. But the blood of Ukrainians to which the present day Russians own their origin had another distinctive feature haplotype Eu 19.This genetic marker was carried by generations of Slavs and other Europeans who followed.

At first these ancestors of Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, and Hungarians were confined to a territory to the north and west of black sea. At that time much of the country known as Russia today was still covered in icy marsh and deep ice. Most of the frozen terrain did not have enough humidity to sustain any form of life and consequently very dead and bleak. It was necessary for the nature to build the ecological support system first as required before humans could venture in and conquer the vast land. The first species of plant that came in where those with high tolerance for cold .Tiny rudimentary plants started the process of taming the vast icy cold waste land followed by successive generation of larger plants and trees. Some of this species are still pre dominant trees in northern Russia like Burch and Aspen, Pine, Hazel and Willow. As the temperature warmed up, humidity level increased too and along came the trees like Horn Beam, Linden .At around 7000 years back the Oak and Elm came into being taking advantage of the cold and moderate humidity zones created by the earlier generation of trees. This perhaps is the period when the large cold weather forests of Russia started taking shape.

Something different was happening in the south. As the temperature increased the existing forests in fact got converted into rolling steppe. the reason was entirely the climatic change associated with global warming following ice age. the rainfall became intermittent and strong winds from Asia made any large tree difficult to live except in protected areas like in ravines and gorges .Everywhere else it was thick vegetation but lacked the magnificence of large trees so characteristic of Russian forests.
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Post by Surya »

Shankar u r killingme :lol:


To maintain our time tested?? 50 yr friendship you went back to the ice age. ROTFL


Now a trip report would be nice (although from you it will be suspect)
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Post by JCage »

To maintain our time tested?? 50 yr friendship you went back to the ice age. ROTFL
:lol: I was half expecting a bunch of Russians charging a woolly mammoth.
Now a trip report would be nice (although from you it will be suspect)
Oh he had posted one. And BRF owes Igorr thanks for travelling a huge distance just to meet Shankar and show him around.
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Post by Surya »

Oh - missed that trip report

If someone can find earlier trip reports post it in the thread I created for Indians travelling abroad
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Post by Igorr »

Shankar wrote: It can be said with reasonable certainty Russians are European by descent confirmed essentially by work of genetic scientists like Dr O Semino wh analyzed the blood samples of 1000 men from all over Europe focusing on Y chromosomes carried only by males. The results of this unique experiment in trying trace the roots of civilization through the genetic route led them to conclude that at the onset of ice age about 24000 years ago the early humans migrated south wards in three directions namely Mediterian(France and Spain),The Balkans and Ukraine. The present day Russians are descendants from the group which migrated to Ukraine
It's interesting, that due to its harsh clime Europe was inhabited by Homo Sapience population long time after Australia or America were. Also the well grounded 'Out of India Theory' says, all non-tropic African human population came throughout Indostan, i.e. India is the oldest inhabited territory out of Africa.

So, the question, why the habitus of the contemporal Russian people is different allthought the languages are so close? The answer is climatic: because too low solar radiation in Europe, the children of the Indostan-via-Central-Asia migrants suffered from Vit-D insufficiency ('rickets') . Then, only the most light-skinned have survived...
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Post by shyamd »

A book going to come out this month on Gazprom's ties in Europe, particularly Germany.

Interesting to note:
Former Chancellor Schroder visited France in 2006. A few months before that trip, he was named as a Chairman to Nord Stream AG, a swiss firm owned by Gazprom, that is building the pipeline from Russia via the Baltic sea bypassing Poland and Belarus. Ever since Schroder has been constantly defending Russian foreign policy.

The current Chairman of the company, a german who is an ex Stasi agent (and ex chairman of Dresdner Bank), who was in contact with Putin in his days of working as a KGB operative in Dresden. The same guy opened Dresdner Bank's branch in Russia in St Petersburg when Putin was incharge of external relations of the City Hall. It has sinced moved to Moscow apparenlty.
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Post by Sanjay M »

That's the one thing I liked about the Lefty Schroeder, which is that he had good ties with Putin, as contrasted with some of the more hardline NATO-expansionist Atlanticist types.

It's a bit harder for me to choose between the German Left and Right, because while the Right tend to be more NATO-expansionist, they may also be more favorable towards the War on Terror.

Perhaps not favorable enough though, as we see from continued German refusal to re-deploy its troops from Northern Afghanistan to the more militant-infested Southern Afghanistan. So maybe the German Right doesn't have enough going for it after all, then. Unless you want to count their lesser tendency towards trade protectionism.

Anyway, it's good to see some renewed Russian-Prussian cooperation, as this will leave the frontline NATO states in the lurch.
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Post by Shankar »

UNDERSTANDING RUSSIA -3

With increase in humidity and temperature insects came in including the bees. In the water rise in temperature the number of fish species multiplied and that included pike, perch and salmon. Ducks and water fowl arrived from warmer climes in large numbers and more complex animals moved in to the new land .These included hares, beavers, red deer, row deer followed by the predators the fox, wolves, glutton . The black bear came in after the honey producing productive bees and the environment was ready for the predator of predators –the humans to come back and rule once again the land which their fore fathers have left thousands of years ago.

Actually the humans or early Russians have learn t to use and exploit certain animals when they were taking shelter in southern areas during ice age and as the animals came back early Russians simple followed suite. Agriculture was still some time away into future. They essentially hunted wild pigs, horse and deer for food. About the same time they learned how to domesticate some of them mainly the horse. It is in this period the basis of famed Russian cavalry was born which some day will help it create the largest nation on earth. Slowly they learned to cultivate certain grasses and crush their seed into flour and then cook it .This again was perhaps the starting point of various types of bread which forms the staple of Russian Diet today. The movement of humans from warmer south to still quite cold north lands was done very slowly and deliberately. Farming though started was not very encouraging and people still lived on hunting (deer and pigs) fishing (plenty in the large river systems) gathering edible fruits in the unending forests and the early Russians survived in a very inhospitable and unforgiving land .

As the early Russians became bolder they moved to the very edge of northern territories into areas which were free of ice only in few short summer months .They were no doubt good hunters and hunted for food as well as the furs ,feathers, horns and bones . This was again perhaps the starting point in time when the nascent Russian fur trade took shape and would remain a main trade item with till early twentieth century.Even then Russians had a multi pronged approach while one group would track and hunt animals in the forests ,another group would explore the rivers and lakes and go as far north as possible where the fishes were plenty and comparatively easy to catch, the women and children were entrusted to gather fruit and nuts .This was a purely as seasonal activity and everyone withdrew south at the onset of winter. However as the food supply became more assured and consequently the population increased ,pressure was on to make the temporary northern settlements permanent .Similar population pressures in the western Europe also made the population migration to the northern fringes and these groups would later be identified as Balts and Fin. The people who explored and eventually made Russia their home were genetically different .Caucasoid in anthropological terms ,capable of language and speech and had a stone age culture but more advanced the Paleolithic type .In simple words the Russians were even from stone age curious, adventurous, ingenious and adaptable – the basic nature traits which will shape their destiny in years to come
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Post by Shankar »

UNDERSTANDING RUSSIA-4

The northwards movement of early Russian ancestors from Ukraine to colonize territories what is now Russia was not a planned and systematic one. The main geographical problem was presence of extensive icy marshes along the landscape making access to many areas impossible. Similarly presence of very dense forests also discouraged exploration and colonization. Compared to this rivers were a big plus –easy to cross and navigate in fact becoming a sort of primitive high way along which the ancient Russian civilization flourished .The original Slavonic language also met morphed into a variety of languages just as physical characteristics of early Russians changed with geography and their genetic make up. It has been claimed the the variation in different forms of Slavonic language kept in like with genetic variation brought about by climate, location, mating and ecological conditions. But irrespective f minor variations the basic Russian language and genes are what makes Russians what they are today and makes it impossible to differentiate the Slavic races today that inhabit that specific part of globe today. Differences in language mostly originated because of local geographic barriers like mountains .The Carpathian Mountain separated the ancestors of Czechs and Poles from south Slav Serbs and Croats. Similarly the Pripet marshes acted as a wall between west Slavs and East Slavs whose descendants became Ukrainians, Belarusian and Russians. The age old conflict between Poles and Russians most likely was rooted in geography rather than politics or language.
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Post by Philip »

A most interesting commentary on the current situ between Russian defence sales to China and India,espcially the fall in sales to China because of Russian reluctance to sell China its besteqpt. which is sold to India.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... s.asp?pg=2

A Dead End?
Russian defense sales to the PRC.
by Reuben F. Johnson
02/05/2008 12:00:00 AM

Kiev
THIS WEEK THE MOSCOW daily Nezavismaya Gazeta (The Independent Newspaper) reported what Russian defense industry officials have been saying for some time now about the steep decline in orders from the People's Republic of China (PRC). Beijing has been one of--if not the--biggest cash cow for Russia's weapons makers. A large portion of Moscow's defense industrial complex might have gone under in the early to mid-1990s without the massive orders from Beijing for fighter aircraft, naval vessels, air defense systems, and air-launched weapons.

But all this Chinese business is coming to a halt, according to some well-placed but unnamed sources that spoke to NG's Viktor Litovkin for an article entitled "Military Export Dead End: Moscow Is Losing A Major Buyer of Weapons."

"The time has past when China was in top number of the heavy buyers of Russian defense products," he writes. "At present, exports to the PRC of domestically developed military technology and weaponry are close to zero." A "well-informed source" tells the Moscow paper that there is now "serious concern" in Moscow over losing their Chinese market and that this has become the "central issue of attention in the preparations for an upcoming visit by the Russian Defense Minister to China."

But, even though this is a burning issue that has some rather weighty implications for Russia's future as a maker of high-tech weaponry--which in turn determines whether the country will continue to be a world power--there is no rush by the Russian side to push this meeting to the forefront of
the current government's agenda. NG's anonymous source tells the daily that there is so far no set date for this visit to take place or for the two nations' defense ministers to participate in a session of the Russia-PRC bilateral commission on military-technical cooperation.

The delay in setting a date for the meeting between Russian Defense Minister Anatoliy Serdyukov and his Chinese counterpart, Cao Gangchuan--and possibly turning the tap back on for Chinese orders--appears to be part of the maneuvering now taking place in Moscow as Russian President Vladimir Putin's heir-apparent, First Deputy PM Dmitri Medvedev, prepares to run almost unopposed for the Russian presidency. NG's source tells the paper that "the meeting between the two ministers of defense will take place not earlier than the next Russian presidential election, but not later than when he officially takes office."

This is a clear signal, say some observers, that Medvedev wants to make sure that any restoration takes place under his presidency. This is consistent with two other major events that have taken place this week in Moscow.

Earlier in the week the local Moscow police arrested reputed mobster Semyon Mogilevich in an operation that is seen as an attempt by Medvedev's to fire a shot across the bow of the siloviki (the circle of former intelligence and security services personnel) within the Putin Kremlin. Local city police units were used in the arrest as the Federal Security Service or other law enforcement bodies (all controlled by the siloviki) would likely have tipped Mogilevich. His arrest is part of a power struggle between them and Medvedev's faction over control of the Russian natural gas monopoly Gazprom.

Currently Medvedev is the chairman of Gazprom, but later in the week the proverbial other shoe dropped when it was announced that the present Prime Minister, Viktor Zubkov, will take this position after the election. (Medvedev has already said that if or when he is elected president he will appoint Putin to be the next PM in Zubkov's place.) Zubkov is also Serdyukov's father-in-law, keeping control of Russia's gas empire and its weapons sales in the same family.

One official reason given in the article for this long delay in the two defense ministers meeting is the personnel changes at the MoD--chiefly the promotion of the former Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov, who originally proposed the bilateral discussions, to the post of First Deputy PM. The unfamiliarity of his successor, Serdyuov, with many of the issues that must be addressed at these talks is another. Serdyukov is a former St. Petersburg furniture store manager turned tax administration official. He has no background or experience in military matters. His appointment has been met with some disbelief given the need for a competent manager to reform and revive the Russian military.

This has all caused the bilateral meeting to be postponed from the fall of 2007 until sometime next year, but independent experts consulted by NG state that the change in ministerial personnel or lack of experience by Serdyukov is not the main reason for the delay. "The chief reason is the serious pause that has arisen in the military-technical cooperation between the two nations. Today in
Moscow there is not one large-scale defense contract with Beijing as there was several years ago. Russia at one point earned US $1.8-2 billion dollars per year in contracts in sales to China of weaponry and military technology, which was 40 per cent or more of the total in foreign currency export earnings."

The chief cause of this drop off in orders is China's unhappiness with Russian defense export policy. The major sticking point is Russia's decision to sell some of its most advanced weaponry to China's regional adversary, India, while at the same time "there is no consensus among the military leadership [in Russia] as to what should be sold to Beijing . . . thus far Moscow has not given a positive answer to the majority of the requests or inquiries from Beijing."

Interestingly, China is referred to in the article as "Podnebesnaya," which is an abbreviation of a common name used by Russians when they refer to China. It means "the subheavenly empire." This is almost a Russian variant on the English-language nickname for China, "The Middle Kingdom," but the complete Russian phrase for China of Podnebesnaya Imperia is closer to the Chinese term Tianxia, which means "under heaven." This phrase has long been used in political writing dating back to when the country was ruled by an emperor. According to this line of thought, the emperor was looked upon as the political leader of the entire world and not just China itself.

Russians use the term to telegraph their increasing apprehension about the breakneck speed at which China is expanding its military might and economic clout. Military leaders in Moscow are afraid that China could very well end up ruling the entire world in everything but name, and, as Beijing's neighbor, Russia could be the first domino to fall--hence the hesitation to sell the Chinese military the most advanced systems in Russia's arsenal.

Meanwhile, Russia's defense industry is taking a bit of a gamble that they can hold the Chinese at bay until the planned post-election meeting of the Russian and Chinese defense ministers. Their one singular advantage at present is that China really has nowhere else that it can go to buy its next-generation weaponry and defense technology.

"What saves the Russian arms exporters thus far," says the paper, "is that the EU still maintains its moratorium on military cooperation with China. If this should be changed, then we cannot forget about the billions [in export sales] that are badly needed by the Russian defense-industrial complex."

This leaves a difficult decision in the hands of Russia's next president. Does he allow China access to the most sophisticated and latest defense technology available and gamble that it will never be used against Moscow, or does he bar any such orders from China in the interests of national security.

Political considerations, such as the Russian-Chinese military cooperation that is part of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, weigh in here. So far, Russia has successfully used this military alliance as a counter to U.S. influence in Asia, but this active partnership could evaporate should Russia cut its defense industrial links with China.

Most likely the political leadership's desire to keep making money for itself will see orders to China rising again very soon. The Russian arms exporting monopoly's umbrella company, Russian Technologies, is also run by longtime Putin friend and KGB comrade Sergei Chemezov, who in the last few years has pushed Russian weapons into new markets like Venezuela.


Neither he nor any of the others who personally profit from defense exports want to see the Chinese market become a permanent dead end. Which is why this current situation is likely little more than a temporary pause. Before too long the next Russian president will start the deliveries to Beijing back up again and it will be back to business as usual.

Reuben F. Johnson is a regular contributor to THE DAILY STANDARD.
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Post by ramana »

Historically its in German interests to have good relations with Russia. The wars in Eastern Europe are caused due to the imablance between these two powers.

BTW, Deccan Chronilce has this op-ed in 7 Feb., 2008
Russian eagle’s two heads
By S. Nihal Singh

Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev’s rare rebuke of Russia’s President Vladimir Putin is a reminder that the land of the tsars and Communist ideology has reached a fork. That fork is not the simplistic one defined by the West as one between authoritarianism and democracy. Rather, it is a question of moulding the diminished modern state of the Russian Federation into a functioning democracy at peace with the Russian soul.

President Putin’s task is complicated by a host of problems. In one sense, it was easy to reverse Boris Yeltsin’s disastrous stewardship of the state after the disintegration of the Soviet Union — the darling of the West had, indeed, delivered the coup de grace. He had to demolish the power of the oligarchs who had embedded themselves in the Kremlin power structure. And President Putin was lucky to receive the windfall of sky-high energy prices for his country’s hydrocarbon riches.

Over some eight years, Putin had brought stability and a measure of prosperity to his sorely tried people. He had decided that to rein in separatist ambitions, he had to restore the institution of appointed provincial governors. And to a people dismayed at seeing their leader Yeltsin following not merely American economic prescriptions to disastrous effect but also serving US, rather than Russian, national interests on the world stage, he brought hope by insisting that Russia still counted.

The approaching end of his mandatory second term in early 2008 was recognised as an important test for Putin and Russia because it would define the country’s future direction. Given his popularity and the people’s wishes, it would have been easy for him to amend the Constitution, but he would have diminished his own and his country’s stature in the process. In the event, he chose to bless a candidate, Dmitry Medvedev, to succeed him while choosing to serve as his future Prime Minister.

It was, at best, a messy compromise. Putin had headed the list of the king’s party, United Russia, to contest parliamentary elections it expectedly won handsomely. All the cards were stacked in the party’s favour. And in the run-up to the presidential elections early next month, the Kremlin has not covered itself with glory. A demonstration by former world chess champion Gary Kasparov was disrupted and he was briefly arrested. Besides, the only serious Opposition candidate, former Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov — the other being the perennial Communist Party challenger Gennady Zyuganov — was disqualified on specious grounds.

It was the rejection of Kasyanov’s candidature that provoked Gorbachev to take issue with Putin and call for electoral reforms. He had earlier criticised Putin for cutting welfare benefits to the elderly and less privileged, blaming his advisers more than him. Now he was more forthright in expressing his distress by declaring, "And now I sense an odour that says that soon in our government … there will appear slogans, such as less democracy, fewer social programmes."

Gorbachev wants major reform of the Russian electoral system, with individuals being allowed to contest parliamentary elections to reduce the power of the party bosses who determine the lists. In his view, Parliament should enjoy greater powers, the judiciary should be independent and the executive’s powers should be curbed. He also counts the government’s decision to control the electronic media among Putin’s "mistakes." Unsurprisingly, Russian television channels did not carry Gorbachev’s criticism.

How the projected "double-headed eagle," with Medvedev as President and Putin as Prime Minister, will work in practice remains to be seen. Some Russian analysts have openly expressed pessimism, fearing confusion and dissension in the executive branch, if not the downgrading of the presidency. The kindest construction one can place on the new formula is that Putin believed he had to be in the Kremlin power structure to influence policy at this stage of Russia’s development, rather than try to exercise influence as an elder statesman.

Putin’s future task has become more difficult against the backdrop of continuing American attempts to contain Russia and stymie it by encircling it with a ring of pro-West Nato states. Washington used the disintegration of the Soviet Union to cripple the successor state as far into the future as possible by wooing Russia’s neighbours into a pro-West military alignment and trying to divert the energy resources of the former parts of the Soviet Union in Central Asia to the West outside Moscow’s reach. The icing on the cake, from US perspective, is the plan to install elements of a missile defence plan in Poland and the Czech Republic in Russia’s immediate neighbourhood.

President Putin’s seminal warning to Washington on the dangers of its policy was made in Munich in February last year. If the West was taken aback by the vehemence and passion of President Putin’s sentiments, it had not paid heed to the Russian resentment building up over the years. Moscow particularly resented Washington’s determination to condemn Russia to a lowly status in the world after displacing it from the perch of a superpower. Having secured political stability and some prosperity, Putin was in a position to challenge the American dream of being the Second Roman Empire. Earlier, Russia had successfully bested the US at the latter’s own game of monopolising Central Asian energy resources.

By all accounts, Putin is still groping towards seeking a democratic Russian solution to governing the vast and varied Russian Federation. A question Russians are asking is whether he is relying too much on the siloviki, men of the security services often with a KGB background, indirectly being blamed by Gorbachev under the rubric of bureaucrats.

The double-headed eagle experiment is unlikely to succeed and the world is at a loss to understand why the Kremlin needs to resort to clumsy methods of suppressing dissent when Putin and his nominee would win hands down, given his popularity. Gorbachev has been supportive of Putin for most of the changes he has brought about. Asked by an interviewer whether he preferred stability or democracy for his country, he had answered, "…We need both things." Here lies the rub. Putin needs to figure out how he can implement Gorbachev’s wise formula.
A Russian politicanin the 19th century said "Every people get the govt they deserve. Ours is absolutism mixed with anarchy". The key concept is there is a need for strong central authority in Russia just as in China. What Putin is trying is to bring in an element of representative govt without the chaos of the Yeltsin years.
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Post by Igorr »

Philip wrote:A most interesting commentary on the current situ between Russian defence sales to China and India,espcially the fall in sales to China because of Russian reluctance to sell China its besteqpt. which is sold to India.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... s.asp?pg=2

A Dead End?
Russian defense sales to the PRC.
by Reuben F. Johnson
02/05/2008 12:00:00 AM
.
I read the original of Litovkin's article. This is it:
http://www.ng.ru/economics/2008-01-29/1_tupik.html

According to his information, 'Rosoboron' is keeping the requests from China's military for follow systems:

1) 'Shmel' shoulder handed launcher
2) 'Nona-SVK' 120 mm SPH
3) 'Vena' 120 mm SPH
4) 'Msta-S' 152 mm SPH
5) 'Smerch' 300 mm MLRS
6) T-90S tanks
7) BTR-80, BTR-90
8 ) Mi-28N strike helicopter
9) Ka-50 strike helicopter
10)3-coordinate radars
11)ship-based AAS
12)EW systems and electronnic intelligence systems

They displayed interest also to
1) Su-33 ship based fighter
2) MiG-31 interceptor
3) Tu-22m3 long range bomber
4) cruisers
5) nuclear submarins

All those request were put on hold hovewer
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Post by ranganathan »

Igorr, Why would they want both mi-28N and Ka-52? Which cruisers were they interested in? Ukrania or some other slava? Which nuclear sub? Akula?
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Post by Surya »

Hi shankar

Here you go - cost increases all bahana

It is just they want us to give more order.

From Zeenews


Initial price of Gorshkov was `unreasonable`, says Russia

New Delhi, Feb 07: Ahead of the negotiations to revise the Gorshkov aircraft carrier agreement, Russia on Thursday said the initial price of 1.5 billion dollars worked out for the deal was "unrealistic" and needed revision.

But Russia is willing to "compensate" for the cost of Gorshkov if it gets more military orders, which Moscow insists is not linked to 126 fighter planes that India is planning to buy but other defence purchases.

Moscow feels that the agreement for supply of the 45,000 tonne warship was signed at a time when the Russian ship-building company was in bad shape and India "used" the situation to sign the contract at lower price.

The ship-building company was facing closure and was ready to sign any kind of contract when the contract was signed.

"The price was unrealistic," a Russian official said, adding "it became clear that the price was not adequate once the refitting process (on the warship) started."

The 1.5 billion dollar contract was signed in 2004 and the warship was to be delivered by august this year. Russia, however, stunned India in November last by demanding an additional USD 1.2 billion for refitting and other works.

After initial refusal to re-negotiate the price, India agreed to hold discussions on the cost.

Defence Secretary Vijay Singh will lead a high-level delegation to Russia on February 19 to carry out physical verification of additional refit work needed to be done on the carrier to justify additional costs as claimed by Moscow.

The Russian side had conveyed that "extensive" refit work would be necessary on the warship which will now have to undergo sea trials for a year in Russian waters under their experts.

Sea trials would cost crores of rupees to be borne by India. It would take three to four years for the carrier to be delivered after a nod is given for new refits.

"During the winter conditions, it is difficult to hold trials in arctic area which is another reason for delay," the Russian official said.

The Russian demand was earlier opposed by the Naval Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, who publicly said that there should be no revision in the contract.

"We have not given up the obligation but are only reassessing the cost," the Russian official said.

India has asked for MIG-29 fighters along with Gorshkov, although it traditionally has Sukhois.

The demand for MIG-29 was because India planned to produce smaller aircraft carriers on which these fighters could land.

Bureau Report
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