India-Russia: News & Analysis

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chetak
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

This is why friends are important.

The policy mixes and realpolitik changes that Modi and jaishankar have brought into India's geopolitical quiver will pay dividends that are tangible.

And yet, we will strive to maintain our right to autonomy, subject only to the primacy of our supreme national interest(s), while not being dictated to or being distracted by other players with their own agendas who may be maneuvering for advantage in the same geostrategic arena.

India is resetting its ties with global powers #US, #China and #Russia from a policy of strategic autonomy to strategic self-interest in a complex, rapidly changing world order.
says minhaz merchant
Last edited by chetak on 17 Nov 2021 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
Vivek K
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vivek K »

venkat_kv wrote: ...but the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves, sure they can be nudged in certain ways, a la Parrikar Saab did with Tejas or the previous dispensation did with respect to buying foreign stuff to fill party and personal coffers.
Typical of us Indians! Its always someone else' fault! Make one run around in circles to the next table without ever solving the problem. I wonder if you're correct about the role of an armed force then why don't the forces of advanced nations like USAF or RuAF buy Rafales or other "superior aircraft in place of some of their products. Every nation takes the job of building their economy as seriously as the territorial security. In India we hide behind this phrase - "my job is to fight for the defense of the nation and not help build the MIC" and use it as an excuse to deny local orders. In the US the AF had selected a tanker from Europe some time back and the result was that the solicitation was canceled and they found other ways of buying the local tanker. In the case of the Arjun, it wasn't the MOD, it was the IA's DGMO that put the Arjun into trial after trial, then someone sabotaged the Renk gearbox to make it look bad. If you search around, you will find how orders for the Arjun were denied.
Coming to the crux of your argument, we hear a lot from time to time that India is purchasing from Russia, but we haven't bought anything yet other than strategic purchases of S-400, nuclear sub leasing and an Ak203 license manufacture (this item is a surprise for me).

We haven't bought the KA-226 or the SU or Mig-35 or even the stealth fighters, though the news seem to be coming every now and then. We seem to be having some discussions with the russians regarding platforms and are deciding based on price and other factors and it looks like either the middle men here or from Russia there are releasing these talks and the internet creates a news on it own.
$ 5B for S-400, Almost 300 SU-30 fighters for several B, IIRC at least 3 Frigates being completed at this time and 6 others purchased in recent times (even though the local ones are as capable), MLUs of all Kilo subs (now complete), INS Vikramaditya (price raised by $2B), 45 Mig-29Ks, 1500 or so T-90s .... ! Please explore a bit more than just glossing over several billions of purchases.

India must continue to purchase from Russia next gen techs to include in its future weapons - be a collaborator.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Manish_P »

chetak wrote:...

India is resetting its ties with global powers #US, #China and #Russia from a policy of strategic autonomy to strategic self-interest in a complex, rapidly changing world order.
says minhaz merchant
Chetak ji, could you please elaborate on what the author means by strategic self-interest? I am not clear on how it is independent from strategic autonomy.
chetak
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

Manish_P wrote:
chetak wrote:...


says minhaz merchant
Chetak ji, could you please elaborate on what the author means by strategic self-interest? I am not clear on how it is independent from strategic autonomy.

Manish_P ji


The Non-Aligned Movement was established in 1961 in Belgrade, Yugoslavia through an initiative of the Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Yugoslav President Josip Broz Tito, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, Ghanaian President Kwame Nkrumah, and Indonesian President Sukarno. All rogues and dictators in one form or another as can be seen from this august list

they railed and pontificated, mainly against the west and imagined that they were on a higher plane both intellectually as well as morally

the stated objective of the Non-Aligned Movement was to ensure "the national independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity and security of non-aligned countries" in their "struggle against imperialism, colonialism, neo-colonialism, racism, and all forms of foreign aggression, occupation, domination, interference or hegemony as well as against great power and bloc politics."

Being part of the NAM, neverwho liked to pretend that he was the champion of the non-aligned and also a colossus of sorts on the world stage and he followed this concept of strategic autonomy. He did not seek membership in any pact, be it defence or economic unlike the pakis who were aligned with the amerikis and were members of SEATO and CENTO (the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO), and the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) were considered necessary in the postwar period to protect member countries from Communist aggression and conspiracy). Those memberships alone brought great economic and military benefits to the pakis and the benign amerikis turned a nelson's eye towards many illegal pursuits of the rogue paki regimes, notably in the areas of nuclear proliferation and unleashing of terrorists on India, whereas India lost out economically as well as GDP growth wise because of its insistence on non alignment/strategic autonomy.

Remember the many jibes about the "Hindu rate of growth"

Even though India later signed the Indo–Soviet Treaty of Peace, Friendship and Cooperation, we brazenly stuck to and also projected the hypocritical narrative that we were non aligned maybe because we were not a part of the Eastern/soviet bloc which included Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Romania

India has once again renewed this treaty very recently, like maybe in the last week or month or two

Strategic self-interest is what the amerikis have been doing since the end of the second world war. In the ameriki case, it is the ruthless pursuit of their supreme national interest and is based on their grand narrative of ameriki exceptionalism "American exceptionalism is the idea that the United States is inherently different from other nations. ... being perceived both domestically and internationally as superior to other nations or having a unique mission to transform the world".

India does not have a grand narrative because the vital importance of such a concept is not clearly understood and the commie historians have done their very best to ensure that such a concept for India has been buried very deep and attention has been diverted away from it.

It is very important that we should have our very own grand narrative for India too.

just remember how the amerikis simply steamrollered their way into eyraq and afghanistan, tolerated no narrative other than their own, and forced the other white guys to follow them into the geopolitical minefields based on just the one sole narrative.

In India's case, strategic self-interest is the conscious moving away or distancing the country from this useless and impotent pursuit of the chimera of non-alignment, a policy that only brought us ridicule and caused most of the western world to ignore or isolate us.

So, one may see India enter into short term understandings and adjustments, including the seeking of other countries' accommodating India's interests and India herself accommodating other's interests on a time or situation, constrained basis.

This has been necessitated by the amerikis withdrawal from afghanistan and the cataclysmic changes in ameriki's perceived ability to project and sustain its now radically reduced geopolitical primacy in setting the narrative and geostrategic dexterity in global power projections and the active management of the balance of power equations.

Also. the global loss of trust that has resulted from the intemperate military withdrawal while ceding vital strategic space to the scheming pakis and more importantly to the paki puppet master china via the subterfuge of the taliban fronting the jihadi victory has caused a rethink in the strategic thinking of many affected countries.

also

India-Russia Friendship Renewed


India-Russia Friendship Renewed

Kanwal Sibal
Thu, 15 Jul 2021

Minister Jaishankar’s visit to Russia from July 7 to 9 was important in the context of the new instabilities surfacing in the international system, the increasingly strident US-China rivalry, the unabashed aggressiveness of China in pursuing its ambitions, the threat of a melt-down in Afghanistan with the Taliban expanding territorial control with consequences for regional security, the political, economic and social impact of the corona virus pandemic exposing another failure of multilateralism in combating a collective threat facing the international community. In addition, the visit was important in removing perceptions that India was neglecting its ties with Russia and leaning too far towards the US.

Although Russia is also an Asian power with a long border with China, gaps have developed between it and India on Asian security, China’s assertiveness in the region, the emergence of the Indo-Pacific concept and the Quad. The deepening of Russia’s strategic ties with China, both being targeted as adversaries by the US and subject to sanctions, and Russian fears that the US was once again creating political and military blocs and drawing India into them, accounts for the differing Russian and Indian perspectives on developments in Asia.

Russians have enough experience of geopolitics to understand India’s motives and concerns, and hence our continuing attempt, as was evident in Jaishankar’s visit, to convey our thinking to the Russians to reach some understanding. If Russia is strategically drawn towards China because of US policies, India is drawn towards the US because of Chinese policies.

The joint press conference by Ministers Jaishankar and Lavrov indicated that good ground was covered. Jaishankar was quite effusive in his remarks, calling the talks “as always very warm, comfortable, comprehensive and productive”. Lavrov noted that the two paid special attention to prepare the content for the upcoming Russia-India summit this year. Jaishankar expressed confidence that when it takes place, “the development, the progress in our cooperation will be very much on display”. He noted that a new dimension had been added to ties by the agreement to hold the 2+2 Dialogue of Foreign and Defence Ministers later in the year.

Both Ministers underlined the agreement to produce the Russian vaccine Sputnik V in India. With the EU playing politics over its approval, its acceptance and production in India is a big boost for the Russian vaccine internationally too.

Trade and economic cooperation between India and Russia remain a weak point in ties, though in some areas progress is being registered. On June 29, the construction of the 5th unit at Kudankulam began. Lavrov stressed the need for an updated investment protection agreement prior to formulating any programme of trade, economic and investment cooperation to be realised by 2030.

A working group had been set up to explore talks for forming a free trade area between India and the Eurasian Economic Union. Jaishankar noted that energy cooperation had grown very significantly in the last few years, reflected both in new potential investments and long term commitments in the field of oil and gas. Greater inter-regional cooperation particularly with the Russian far east was being discussed.

Jaishankar’s speech at the Primakov Institute carried several subtle messages. It reminded the Russian audience that India was no longer one that the Russians were familiar with in Soviet days, and to some extent even now. It had changed in the last 25 years and was now the sixth-largest economy, a nuclear weapon power, an IT Centre, a reservoir of global talent and an active shaper of global debates. Its interests and influence had grown well beyond the Sub-Continent and was often perceived as first responders in crisis situations.

Whereas Lavrov during the visit did not mention “multipolarity”, Jaishankar dwelt on the theme quite extensively in the context of America no longer in a position to shape the world order as before-as its withdrawal from Afghanistan implies- and China’s bid to reshape that order with “Chinese characteristics”, not to mention Russia extending its strategic sway in some vital regions. Jaishankar made the point, no doubt in the context of China’s ambition to dominate Asia, that a multi-polar world must logically have a multi-polar Asia as an essential constituent. With an eye on China, he also emphasised that “it should be our effort to discourage unrestrained pursuit of balance of power and resist domination in all forms.”


Indirectly explaining conceptually India’s choices, Jaishankar said that “the operating principle of a multi-polar world is the legitimate pursuit of flexibility without seeking exclusivity. After all, the latter is antithetical to the very logic of multi-polarity.” Eschewing the phrase “strategic autonomy”, he said that “an important reason why India and Russia readily accept multi-polarity is their strong sense of independence. Perhaps, such self-confidence is a natural outlook for large polities with a long history, a rich culture and a deep-rooted identity.” The use of such language of self-confidence shows the change of India’s equations with big powers.

Jaishankar explained that the “world of convergences that the multi-polar and re-balanced international order has created …will be less structured and more fluid, leaving open the possibility of differences even among those who are together. The inclination would be to look at pragmatic and result-oriented cooperation on defined issues. To some extent, the weakening of multilateralism has contributed to this”. All this to explain the rationale of the Indo-Pacific, stating that India that now sees much of its trade eastwards, and its interests and reach today extend well into the Pacific, with its major partners located there, including cooperation with the Russian Far East.

Jaishankar alluded to the shift of global growth eastwards, with its consequences for the international order now getting visible. India and Russia, he said, need to work together to ensure the stability and diversity of the world, which included an insistence on honouring agreements and observing laws and, on the economic side, the realization of the importance of resilient and reliable supply chains. All this with China in mind.
venkat_kv
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by venkat_kv »

Vivek K wrote:
venkat_kv wrote: ...but the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves, sure they can be nudged in certain ways, a la Parrikar Saab did with Tejas or the previous dispensation did with respect to buying foreign stuff to fill party and personal coffers.
Typical of us Indians! Its always someone else' fault! Make one run around in circles to the next table without ever solving the problem. I wonder if you're correct about the role of an armed force then why don't the forces of advanced nations like USAF or RuAF buy Rafales or other "superior aircraft in place of some of their products. Every nation takes the job of building their economy as seriously as the territorial security. In India we hide behind this phrase - "my job is to fight for the defense of the nation and not help build the MIC" and use it as an excuse to deny local orders. In the US the AF had selected a tanker from Europe some time back and the result was that the solicitation was canceled and they found other ways of buying the local tanker. In the case of the Arjun, it wasn't the MOD, it was the IA's DGMO that put the Arjun into trial after trial, then someone sabotaged the Renk gearbox to make it look bad. If you search around, you will find how orders for the Arjun were denied.
Coming to the crux of your argument, we hear a lot from time to time that India is purchasing from Russia, but we haven't bought anything yet other than strategic purchases of S-400, nuclear sub leasing and an Ak203 license manufacture (this item is a surprise for me).

We haven't bought the KA-226 or the SU or Mig-35 or even the stealth fighters, though the news seem to be coming every now and then. We seem to be having some discussions with the russians regarding platforms and are deciding based on price and other factors and it looks like either the middle men here or from Russia there are releasing these talks and the internet creates a news on it own.
$ 5B for S-400, Almost 300 SU-30 fighters for several B, IIRC at least 3 Frigates being completed at this time and 6 others purchased in recent times (even though the local ones are as capable), MLUs of all Kilo subs (now complete), INS Vikramaditya (price raised by $2B), 45 Mig-29Ks, 1500 or so T-90s .... ! Please explore a bit more than just glossing over several billions of purchases.

India must continue to purchase from Russia next gen techs to include in its future weapons - be a collaborator.
Vivek K Saar,
you are mixing and matching quite a few arguments to make your case. I will try to answer them one by one.

1. The MOD is responsible for the defense of the nation. Its is its prerogative/turf to get things done, sitting with various stake holders and reaching an agreeable/working solution. Abdicating that responsibility due to any number of reasons be it political pressure or trying to make a quick buck on the side favoring one system over the other, lack of basic knowledge about the requirements and general apathy doesn't cut it. You will have to bring changes into the MOD to make it work rather than crib about it stating any or all the reasons stated before. maybe a transformational figure might come in, but even that minister/ bureaucrat will not be there for ever. it is far easier to get things done through a process and getting that process to work.

/OT example to make my point/
I will quote another example for this though this is OT. say in our everyday office the cleaning staff didn't come and take out the trash. If you can't work in your workplace, you will at the most try to clean up your cubicle and try to get your work done. You will not try to clean the entire office trash and neither will our Boss or the CEO or HR manager step in to save the day even though one of the requirements a company provides is to have a safe and good working environment. That simply shows that you were not hired to take out the garbage but to do your job, what ever it may be - sometimes in extraneous situations maybe you will do this garbage cleaning but not all the time and every time saying its your responsibility to fix this mess. you will ask the HR or facilities to take care of it to get the work done.

the forces primary job is to fight and be prepared for it at all possible time with the budget and hardware allocated to them. it would be nice if they also help in building domestic MIC, but that is not their primary task. They will also do it once local products come online and forces have experiences with them and their service. We are still in that process of making those weapons and handing them over, a little more patience would serve us all better.

Trying to the this has got nothing to do with shifting the blame as in an Indian trait. You need to fix where the issues are even though temporarily you might go through a quick fix.The issue you see in today's world is mainly due to people with no domain expertise trying to muscle their way into things that they they have no business to be in the first place like our humanities and secular bunch trying to tell everyone on how to celebrate festivals, rule the country and pass judgements from court.

2. if the DGMO was putting Arjun through trial after trial, someone from the MOD should have questioned atleast the basis of the trial and what trials were done fro the prior inducted equipment and why this is important. This doesn't show the folks from DGMO in positive light, but the issue should have been stopped by MOD itself. It would have either led to Arjuns induction or at the very least more trials for the T-90 to show case its issues (or maybe russians would have managed that as well). this is abdication of the responsibility by the MOD and the OFB is least bothered as long as whether Arjun or T-90 orders go through them. This is the current reality of the situation.

3. When we order S-400 or Su-30 MKI, do we have any desi alternative in their place to order those instead. The argument can be made about the Talwar class ships, but modular construction, if i am not wrong was achieved during the 2018-2019 time frame. maybe the P17 and P15B should be put to test with the time lines and fine tuning our process with further orders.

4. We have issues with respect to technology. There is an excellent post by our own Shiv that details what India's industrial capacity was when ordered the Mirages. And in the subsequent years till now from 1985's we have been constantly chipping away at things based on our priorities (Missiles were the highest and later we are into seekers, propulsion's, radars) We are getting there over time by constantly working. The work hasn't stopped, has it?

5. If rumors are to be believed we were willing to buy the American planes for GE to transfer hot sections of the engine technology. But they haven't and we went in another direction. We seem to be willing to spend money if it allows us to leap frog and get techs.

6. The Americans, Russians, Frenchies all have a head start of more than a 100 years on us. Why would they go outside when they have a thriving industry and one that gives them options for their requirements. If you really want to compare, didn't the Americans source weapons from French when they were fighting the british for their independence. The Americans then didn't have industry and had to source from outside and now have head start on arms research due to World wars and destruction of Europe. We were a poor nation when we got our independence and were in the enthrall of socialism and our then leader didn't think much about defense forces or its related research. We have are further along the way as we seem to be bringing in changes with CDS and modernization of the forces which needs to have arms sourced locally ( not only because of pride and flexibility but also due to the hefty forex bill for imported arms).

So desi MIC is a must and rather than breathing fire if the process is tweaked it should give us better results than hoping for a transformational character coming in and forcefully having army to purchase locally and then CAG put out technicalities of such a thing (procedural and not anything on the system itself) with Rahul and assorted ilk braying from roof tops with a compromised media about a non-existent scam. That in itself will set it back by several decades.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by bharathp »

the russians announced that they are building a heavy transport helicopter with the chinese. guess where the transport heli will be used?
Manish_P
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Manish_P »

Thank you Chetak ji for indulging my queries. My initial thought was that the two were linked (two sides of the same coin) or that one was a sub-set of the other. Hence the query.

I will require some time to take in what you have posted.. for now i will highlight the points made by you, which i think are most important.
chetak wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Chetak ji, could you please elaborate on what the author means by strategic self-interest? I am not clear on how it is independent from strategic autonomy.
Being part of the NAM,.. did not seek membership in any pact, be it defence or economic.. India lost out economically as well as GDP growth wise because of its insistence on non alignment/strategic autonomy.

India has once again renewed this treaty very recently, like maybe in the last week or month or two - ( :?: Why ? Unless we think that Strategic Autonomy and Strategic Self-interest can co-exist, and if we do think that now then presumably we thought the same earlier as well ?)

Strategic self-interest ..is the ruthless pursuit of their supreme national interest and is based on their grand narrative of ameriki exceptionalism ... being perceived both domestically and internationally as superior to other nations or having a unique mission to transform the world". India does not have a grand narrative because the vital importance of such a concept is not clearly understood and the commie historians have done their very best to ensure that such a concept for India has been buried very deep and attention has been diverted away from it.
(or is it also in no small measure because of our centuries old non-evangelist Dharmic roots and way of life - 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam'?)

In India's case, strategic self-interest is the conscious moving away or distancing the country from this useless and impotent pursuit of the chimera of non-alignment, a policy that only brought us ridicule and caused most of the western world to ignore or isolate us. So, one may see India enter into short term understandings and adjustments, including the seeking of other countries' accommodating India's interests and India herself accommodating other's interests on a time or situation, constrained basis.
(But haven't we done this balancing act all along - support the palestinians while buying from the Israelis, buying from Russia but also from the Euros, buying from the Yanks and also from Eyranians, etc etc. So again why re-sign the NAM pact - if it has been a constraint in entering into short term arrangements?)

This has been necessitated by.. the cataclysmic changes in ameriki's perceived ability to project and sustain its now radically reduced geopolitical primacy in setting the narrative and geostrategic dexterity in global power projections and the active management of the balance of power equations...and China’s bid to reshape that order with “Chinese characteristics”, not to mention Russia extending its strategic sway in some vital regions. Jaishankar made the point, no doubt in the context of China’s ambition to dominate Asia, that a multi-polar world must logically have a multi-polar Asia as an essential constituent.(So net net it is just a way of telling the Russians that if the US is may be in decline, and/or disinterested in Asia ('west'), China will take the opportunity to take it's place and India will do what it must, including aligning further with the Yanks, to stop them, even as the Russians won't - being focused as they are on eastern europe (or in agreement with China in division of sphere of influences - Eastern Europe for Russia, Asia for China). But then isn't the US just re-pivoting - taking the south-east Asia - West Pacific route to contain China - with the AUKUS, QUAD and what not)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Karan M »

No Govt has done as much for local MIC as this Govt has.

Can it be better, sure? Should it be better, sure. I personally would want them to increase the DRDO budget and spend more on stuff like the GaN fab. The Kaveri is another sore point. But to ignore how much the Modi led GOI has done to increase the indigenous footprint in the services with committed orders and rant on about imports alone is just plain nuts.

Thanks to this GOI we now have - QRSAM and MPATGM programs, along with the VSHORADS - combination of the three, ordered locally will result in savings of thousands of crores. Akash 1S program - will soon lead to the order of 2 regiments for the IA and the IAF already placed a follow on order for 7 squadrons. Total, around 11K crore. Tejas - thats Rs 36K crore for 83 aircraft. 8 Pinaka regiments at Rs 3070 Crore. Brahmos regiment 4th at Rs 4300 crore. Brahmos for IAF at Rs 1300 Crore estimated. The list can go on and on and on. If anything this GOI is lousy at publicizing its achievements. For instance, fixing the ALH serviceability requirements by having HAL open up more facilities, spending more on spares leading to services place more orders. Even imported designs have been made in India, with significant indigenous content like the K-9. The new MRSAM deal for the IA, fixes the glaring technology access loopholes present during the UPA era, with many critical items now made in India. Even the Rafale deal gives an offset windfall to the private sector if even its partly completed. We have sought to strike a balance wherever possible.

DRDO has taken up 79 new projects at Rs 8,201 Crore over the past three years, including programs like Akash NG, VL-SRSAM and many more missile and sensor, and aircraft programs, many of which are unlikely to be in the public domain. Do they need more funding? Yes, around 30% more per their own projections, but then again, we have to balance the needs of the AF which have literally been starved of tech and inductions for a decade under the UPA and want everything now. Literally every Rs, every $ is being chased.

The order multiple from these successfully developed programs, will be of many multiples more. Thanks to this GOI we now have Tejas MWF and AMCA snatched from the teeth of the import mafia. The private sector is getting a host of new orders. There are now ammunition manufacturers in the private sector providing everything from grenades, and soon rockets and all-up systems. Helmets, BPJs- lakhs of orders placed on the private sector. DRDO told to transfer its tech to anyone willing, public and private to increase the industrial depth, and they have done it. During Covid, 36K ventilators made by BEL with a pvt partner based off of a DRDO reference design and import-substitution support. India is now one of the world's largest PPE kit makers thanks in part to DRDO and IIT tech transfer.

The OFB has been corporatized, which means that orders no longer go as nomination to it unless GOI so decides. They will have to go via tender and IA can choose to decide whom to give the deal to per process. Huge change. Not as radical as privatization but more likely to succeed as versus privatization which might have just collapsed the entire OFB structure.

The only issue is the quantum of overall spend, which forces us to choose between cutting edge and highly expensive imports, and the induction of desi systems, but we are arguably the only country which hasnt printed its way into a massive splurge. We retain that option if a true crisis requires it.

Even the emergency procurements are boosting local business, for instance anti-drone and drone systems. The COAS recently noted:
We were able to conclude 118 contracts, worth more than Rs 16,000 crore, in a period of just 12 to 15 months, with delivery periods of one year from the signing of the contracts," the Chief of Army Staff told the gathering.
"A majority of this, more than 55 per cent of this, is for indigenous contracts and indigenous content. More than 50 per cent of that has gone to MSMEs [Micro, Small & Medium Enterprises] (sic)," the Army Chief said.
So lets please have some sense and context, and lets stop having pointless discussions on how the GOI is unaware of its duty to the MIC. The world or even looks like this forum has no idea of the pace and scale of the orders being placed with our limited financial resources. Once the next gen development programs mature, and the economy is able to sustain a higher spend, we will see even bigger orders.
shyamd
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by shyamd »

shyamd wrote:Russia dropping hints to GOI to buy S-550 missile. Russians have allocated the job to someone important close to their NSC to ensure this is sold to GOI. I have no idea what is special about S-550 perhaps others can help.
snippet from todays press
Putin to have one to one with PM
It is already in discussion with the Russians to acquire the S-500 systems which is in last stages of development.
kit
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by kit »

shyamd wrote:
shyamd wrote:Russia dropping hints to GOI to buy S-550 missile. Russians have allocated the job to someone important close to their NSC to ensure this is sold to GOI. I have no idea what is special about S-550 perhaps others can help.
snippet from todays press
Putin to have one to one with PM
It is already in discussion with the Russians to acquire the S-500 systems which is in last stages of development.
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... derivative

Following an announcement by the Russian Defence Ministry on November 9th that a new air defence system, the S-550, was under development, new details regarding the weapons system have been announced. Speaking to the Ria Novosti news agency, sources in the defence industry stated that the S-550 would become the world's first mobile special operation missile defence system capable of effectively destroying intercontinental range ballistic missiles, and would be a more specialised derivative of the S-500 Prometheus. “The S-550’s capabilities to intercept warheads of enemy ballistic missiles, mainly, intercontinental ones, as well as space attack weapons will be by an order greater than the capabilities of the S-400 and the S-500, as well as those of the U.S. THAAD and AEGIS air defences fitted with the 3M-3 Block IIB missiles”, one source was quoted as stating. Another added: "the development of a new system is currently at an advanced stage.”

The first images of launchers associated with the S-500 were released in July, and missiles for the system entered production the following month. Advanced features including its very high degree of situational awareness, its 600km engagement range, its ability to intercept hypersonic and space targets including satellites and ICBMs, and its ability to network with older air defence systems such as S-400s to maximise situational awareness
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rakesh »

Russian Roulette Ahead
https://bharatshakti.in/russian-roulette-ahead/
05 Dec 2021

By Lt Gen PR Shankar (Retd)
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vips »

India, Russia Sign Record 28 MoUs, Programme of Cooperation In Defence For 10 Years | Key Points:

India and Russia have been in regular touch on Afghanistan and regional issues, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said on Monday and noted that the two countries have not only helped each other without hesitation but also taken care of each others’ sensitivities.

The Prime Minister, who held the annual summit meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin at Hyderabad House here, said the 2+2 mechanism between the two countries has started a new mechanism to increase cooperation between the two countries. “Both countries have not only helped each other without any hesitation but have also taken care of each others’ sensitivities. This is really a unique and trustworthy model of intrusted friendship,” he said.

This is the first in-person between PM Modi and Putin since they met on the sidelines of the BRICS summit in 2019 in Brasilia. The visit of the Russian leader is in continuation of the tradition of annual summits held alternately in India and Russia.

Key Takeaways from the Meeting:
28 agreements/MoUs signed during the 21st India-Russia Annual Summit in New Delhi today

PM Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin discussed regional & global developments, including post-pandemic global economic recovery, & the situation in Afghanistan

PM Modi thanked President Putin for the welfare of Indian community in Russia, especially during COVID pandemic.

Both leaders discussed the need for mutual recognition of vaccine certification to enable easier travel by our citizens to each other’s countries

On the trade & investment side, there are some specific plans which include long-term corporation in the areas of inland waterways, fertilizers, coking coals, steel, skilled manpower.

President Putin’s visit is short but highly productive & substantive. There were excellent discussions between the two leaders.

The issue of RELOS (Reciprocal Exchange of Logistics Agreement) has been put off for some time because there are still a few issues that we need to discuss further, so I think we will be concluding it at the earliest: Foreign Secretary Harsh Vardhan Shringla said after India-Russia meet

PM Modi said that various fundamental changes had occurred at the global level in the last few decades and multiple new geopolitical equations have emerged but despite these variables, the friendship between the two countries has been constant.

He emphasised that 2021 is a special year for the strategic partnership between India and Russia.

“Today, the first 2+2 dialogue was convened among our foreign and defence ministers. The dialogue has begun a new mechanism to increase our practical cooperation. We have also been regularly in touch on Afghanistan and other regional issues,” the Prime Minister said.

“The regional partnership that began from Eastern Economic Forum and Vladivostok summit today is turning into real assistance between Indian states and Russian Far East,” he added.

The Prime Minister said the two countries are also implementing a long-term vision to strengthen economic ties.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by yensoy »

Rakesh wrote:Russian Roulette Ahead
https://bharatshakti.in/russian-roulette-ahead/
05 Dec 2021

By Lt Gen PR Shankar (Retd)
2 unanswered questions:
1. How does Russia see our relationship with Ukraine? We rely on them for engines, and are a huge importer of sunflower oil; in general we have a good equation.
2. How does Russia see our support of Armenia in their conflict with Azerbaijan?
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ramana »

Let them stew on it.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Aditya_V »

Media is full of Ka 226, Su30MKI 50 nos, 21 Mig 29 for 18000cr , Igla S, 460 T90 deal etc etc. But officially nothing. I have a feeling media does not have a clue what's going or why Putin has come.

Officially we have signed deal for Ak203, coal for steel production and oil supply
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Manish_P »

Aditya ji, your should check out the Baki media... they are going bonkers :twisted: ... well they usually are but this time they are even more shrill...
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Vips »

Aditya_V wrote:Media is full of Ka 226, Su30MKI 50 nos, 21 Mig 29 for 18000cr , Igla S, 460 T90 deal etc etc. But officially nothing. I have a feeling media does not have a clue what's going or why Putin has come.
Each of those deals will be signed 'one at a time' (Like the AK 203 this year) for "summit meeting" which will now be every year. Got to show something substantial to do Photo_ops of signed agreement being exchanged by two clueless babus :)

For next year meeting's the signing up of agreement for 21 Mig 29's and 12 SU-30 is already lined up.

What is really surprising is that this time there was no Logistics agreement on use of each others bases during this visit by Putin. This has been postponed for doing 'additional consultations'. Seems like Russia is not comfortable with a situation where India asks for access to its bases in the event of a war with china.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Let them stew on it.
russia's relationship with china is not against India, they are pursuing their own agenda

likewise, India's relationship with ukraine is not anti russia, we are pursuing our own agenda

The russkis are mature enough to understand this just as they understand that the Indo US tango is necessary for India.

They are in the arms business and they will sell wherever they can.

But the real question is will the russkis help out others in the nuclear power arena, with advanced technology and fuel like they do India, will they lease out a nuke sub to anyone else.... would they help anyone else design a naval submarine compatible reactor that can also be adapted to a warship or a nuke powered carrier after further development

clearly, the answer is no.

there have been no significant objections so far to India doing all of the above with russki help.

That, by itself, speaks volumes about how the other powers see India, quite unlike the rogue states they all see in eyran, the pakis, and a few others too.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ldev »

chetak wrote:

They are in the arms business and they will sell wherever they can.

But the real question is will the russkis help out others in the nuclear power arena, with advanced technology and fuel like they do India, will they lease out a nuke sub to anyone else.... would they help anyone else design a naval submarine compatible reactor that can also be adapted to a warship or a nuke powered carrier after further development
It is the prolonged hand holding which makes India vulnerable to cross currents in international relationships. The relationship right now between the US, Russia and China is very volatile and these cross currents have buffeted India unfortunately. None of the P-5 powers required hand holding and guidance in designing their nuclear subs for the sheer number of years that India has needed it. And the speculation that India needs hand holding for the larger reactor required for the SSNs under design inspite of having the smaller Arihant reactor operational speaks volumes. On the other hand there have been posts here which state that BARC has got the design of the larger SSN reactor crystallized. If that is indeed the case then why the Russian help at this stage?
Last edited by ldev on 07 Dec 2021 21:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rakesh »

Chetak has hit the nail on the head in his post above. Fully agree.

Whatever transactions India has had with Ukraine to date, does NOT endanger Russian strategic interests. As long as India maintains that course, Russia will have no problem in our dealings with Ukraine.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/PatilSushmit/status ... 17024?s=20 ---> India may become the first foreign buyer of the new S-500 air defense system. This was announced by the Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov.

https://twitter.com/PatilSushmit/status ... 66209?s=20 ---> "Of course, after we supply these weapons to our native army in the required quantity, India will be the first on the list if it expresses a desire to buy these modern weapons," he said.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srikandan »

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1 ... 5076139025
JUST IN - Russia vetoes UN resolution to recognize "climate change" as a threat to global security.
Good move. Thank you, Russia. No UN fig leaf for the this nonsense.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by vijayk »

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/indi ... 211216.htm
India mum on report about Modi's upcoming meet with Xi, Putin
Russian news agency TASS, quoting a Kremlin official, said holding of the RIC (Russia-India-China) summit figured in during a recent video conference between President Vladimir Putin and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Xi and Putin had a trilateral meeting in the Japanese city of Osaka in June 2019, on the sidelines of a G-20 summit.
Days before Putin's visit, the foreign ministers of Russia, India and China held talks in the virtual format with a focus on regional issues of mutual interests including the situation in Afghanistan.
Wondering this is the way we can balance woke scums who are bent on screwing India using Jihadi/COMMIE looter gang to destroy and divide India
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Haresh »

“The Truth is Rarely Pure and Never Simple” (Oscar Wilde). How Russia and Ukraine got to where we are today… but no one wants to talk about it.

https://www.rough-polished.com/en/analytics/124001.html
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by ldev »

In first bilateral visit by a Pak PM, Imran Khan to go to Russia this month

So China has successfully brokered this first visit by a Pakistani PM to Moscow, after a very long time, during Putin's visit to Beijing for the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by AkshaySG »

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1490 ... 2Ii3Q&s=19

Russia tries to distance itself from the comments made in the Russian state affiliated media group Redfish's new documentary about Kashmir.

Where they called it another Palestine and compared India to colonial occupiers of a land and spoke to the victims.

They can hide behind labels all they like but the fact of the matter is that this combined with the facilitation of Imran's visit etc definitely means that Chinese influence on them is showing. And a financially underwhelmed Russia up against US & NATO in Ukraine and Eastern Europe will naturally gravitate towards China and the CCP seems to be playing it well.
Last edited by AkshaySG on 07 Feb 2022 00:43, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Atmavik »

^^^ this might be the ‘best thing to happen to our private arms industry’
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rudradev »

AkshaySG wrote:https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1490 ... 2Ii3Q&s=19

Russia tries to distance itself from the comments made in the new Russian state afflicted media group Redfish's documentary about Kashmir.

Where they called it another Palestine and compared India to colonial occupiers of a land and spoke to the victims.
Maybe we shouldn't rush to a conclusion here.

Where do we get the notion that Redfish is Russian State Affiliated Media?

Answer: because Twitter labeled their handle as such. Correct me if I am wrong, but there does not seem to be any independent confirmation of this notion.

Remember that when Sambit Patra had shared a copy of the Greta Thunberg/NGO toolkit for aandolanjeevi protests against the farm bills, Twitter had labeled Sambit Patra's tweet as "manipulated media".

So Twitter's decision to put labels on various handles & their tweets is not necessarily objective either. In fact, it's quite likely to be a politically motivated false flag in this case too.

That said, there is definitely a growing Beijing-driven influence lobby in Moscow that has been promoting Pakistani interestd there. We have known this since the negotiations for a post-US-withdrawal dispensation in Afghanistan, when Russia/China/Pakistan were coordinating their efforts & India was denied a seat ar the table.

But I don't think it's reached a stage where actual Russian state media would air outright Paki propaganda on J&K.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

The problem stems from the fact Russia’s industrial capacity is restricted by sanctions for open trade. Many certified critical electronic components will have to be developed on their own, basically reinventing the wheel taking years, or they get it from China, who has high volume trade of goods around the world. The latter is the fastest approach and allows for Chinese access to weapons development.

As far surveillance (radar, communications, signals) technology goes, India’s domestic designs are on par with the US and Israel, but the manufacturing capacity isn’t there yet.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by srikandan »

The problem stems from the fact Russia’s industrial capacity is restricted by sanctions for open trade. Many certified critical electronic components will have to be developed on their own, basically reinventing the wheel taking years, or they get it from China, who has high volume trade of goods around the world. The latter is the fastest approach and allows for Chinese access to weapons development.
The stumbling block for India and Russia is the patent regime which essentially blocks any Russian or Indian technolopgy under the western/chinese patent regime -- no matter what is developed there will be some conflict with the 200+ million or so patents in that past 4 decades. How can India and Russia create new tech outside of the western patent regime? Only option seems to be working outside of it, and shielding themselves from western/chinese patent regimes.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by GShankar »

kinks in the armour of (uncomfortable) friendship?




Important discussion points w.r.t to india:

1. Russia didn't agree to using RMB as transaction currency
2. Russia insisted that the interests of India-Russia ties could not be over-ridden with any agreements with china

PS: coming back from a long slumber. Sad to see some sr. members go away. Happy for all the new blood (at least in the current handle names that i see)

PS-2: can't help the timely rhyming retort. If complaint has been made, let's move on pls..
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Rudradev »

"Chinki" is not a good idea in my opinion. Many halfwit Indians (and believe me, there are multiple crores of halfwit Indians) routinely use this as a slur for Indian citizens from the Northeast whom they encounter as college students or migrant workers or IT employees or whatever.

So like it or not, "chinki" is already well established in the discourse as a pejorative term against NE Indians-- no amount of claiming exceptions that "we mean it only for the PRC" is going to make any difference to that.

This means it can be, and is being used by vested interests to deepen a completely unnecessary faultline between Indian citizens of different regions and ethnicities. Stating the obvious fact that this is an absolutely pointless self-goal has nothing whatever to do with being "woke". Perpetuating its use is giving ammunition straight into the hands of those whose endgame is the subversion of India, extinction of Hinduism, or both.

To use it as a PRC-specific slur (when it can apply equally well to Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese, and others whom we have no issue with) is not a smart idea either.

"Paki" is fine. In fact, having a broad derogatory term to refer to PRC is fine too. But make one up. Don't use one invented by Western racists, imported by halfwit Indians, and repurposed against India and Hinduism by BIF interests.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by KLNMurthy »

Y. Kanan wrote:BRF is turning into a bunch of woke snowflakes. Never thought I’d see the day… :rotfl:
I object to the derogatory term “jingos” used by some backward primitives to refer to forumites.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by suryag »

Thread cleaned up and RD ji's response. Any further racial slurs will get instant ban. Lets return back to the topic here
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by KLNMurthy »

Vivek K wrote:
venkat_kv wrote: ...but the forces primary goal is to fight for the defense of the nation, not help build in MIC. That is the work of the MOD. You should direct more of your angst there. the forces give recommendations and never purchase anything themselves, sure they can be nudged in certain ways, a la Parrikar Saab did with Tejas or the previous dispensation did with respect to buying foreign stuff to fill party and personal coffers.
Typical of us Indians! Its always someone else' fault! Make one run around in circles to the next table without ever solving the problem.

I am not convinced that this sort of behavior is “typical of us Indians.” If you know something about it that I don’t—for example, some evidence that everyone except Indians handle these things in a nice, rational way—please do share that and enlighten me.

Otherwise, please stop mindlessly bashing India and Indians.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Bart S »

Rudradev wrote:
AkshaySG wrote:https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1490 ... 2Ii3Q&s=19

Russia tries to distance itself from the comments made in the new Russian state afflicted media group Redfish's documentary about Kashmir.

Where they called it another Palestine and compared India to colonial occupiers of a land and spoke to the victims.
Maybe we shouldn't rush to a conclusion here.

Where do we get the notion that Redfish is Russian State Affiliated Media?

Answer: because Twitter labeled their handle as such. Correct me if I am wrong, but there does not seem to be any independent confirmation of this notion.

Remember that when Sambit Patra had shared a copy of the Greta Thunberg/NGO toolkit for aandolanjeevi protests against the farm bills, Twitter had labeled Sambit Patra's tweet as "manipulated media".

So Twitter's decision to put labels on various handles & their tweets is not necessarily objective either. In fact, it's quite likely to be a politically motivated false flag in this case too.

That said, there is definitely a growing Beijing-driven influence lobby in Moscow that has been promoting Pakistani interestd there. We have known this since the negotiations for a post-US-withdrawal dispensation in Afghanistan, when Russia/China/Pakistan were coordinating their efforts & India was denied a seat ar the table.

But I don't think it's reached a stage where actual Russian state media would air outright Paki propaganda on J&K.
It is affiliated with the Russian State (not saying just because of the Twitter label, but because multiple other sources also say the same thing, it seems to be a spinoff of RT) and even the Russian Embassy did not deny it. If you see their mealy mouthed non-apology on it, they do not deny that it is state affiliated, just saying that they 'do not influence the editorial control' of that channel. They are either deliberately needling us or don't care enough about our sentiments to take their proxies to task.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Igorr »

Bart S wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't rush to a conclusion here.

Where do we get the notion that Redfish is Russian State Affiliated Media?

Answer: because Twitter labeled their handle as such. Correct me if I am wrong, but there does not seem to be any independent confirmation of this notion.

Remember that when Sambit Patra had shared a copy of the Greta Thunberg/NGO toolkit for aandolanjeevi protests against the farm bills, Twitter had labeled Sambit Patra's tweet as "manipulated media".

So Twitter's decision to put labels on various handles & their tweets is not necessarily objective either. In fact, it's quite likely to be a politically motivated false flag in this case too.

That said, there is definitely a growing Beijing-driven influence lobby in Moscow that has been promoting Pakistani interestd there. We have known this since the negotiations for a post-US-withdrawal dispensation in Afghanistan, when Russia/China/Pakistan were coordinating their efforts & India was denied a seat ar the table.

But I don't think it's reached a stage where actual Russian state media would air outright Paki propaganda on J&K.
It is affiliated with the Russian State (not saying just because of the Twitter label, but because multiple other sources also say the same thing, it seems to be a spinoff of RT) and even the Russian Embassy did not deny it. If you see their mealy mouthed non-apology on it, they do not deny that it is state affiliated, just saying that they 'do not influence the editorial control' of that channel. They are either deliberately needling us or don't care enough about our sentiments to take their proxies to task.
This is the first time I hear about this group. In addition, the Russians have long lost sympathy for the Palestinians and Sunnis in general due to the fact that Hamas is supported by Saudi Arabia against Syria and the pro-Russian Alawites and Shiites. And vice versa: Russian society sympathizes with Hindus and Buddhists because of the impudence of Muslim migrants in Russia. This whole story looks like an artificially created provocation in order to drive a wedge between Russia and India.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Mort Walker »

I wouldn’t put it past the current US regime to plant a story like this.
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by rsingh »

Just before going to an imposed conflict Putin will be ready to meet leaders of Chad. It is just a show of match. BAKISTANI will bee warned of letting US use its bases.JMT
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Re: India-Russia: News & Analysis

Post by Bart S »

Igorr wrote: This is the first time I hear about this group. In addition, the Russians have long lost sympathy for the Palestinians and Sunnis in general due to the fact that Hamas is supported by Saudi Arabia against Syria and the pro-Russian Alawites and Shiites. And vice versa: Russian society sympathizes with Hindus and Buddhists because of the impudence of Muslim migrants in Russia. This whole story looks like an artificially created provocation in order to drive a wedge between Russia and India.
I have no problem with Russian govt having their propaganda channels to counter the Western propaganda. The problem is that a Russian govt funded propaganda channel puts out inflammatory content designed to needle India (maybe by rogue far-left people associated with it) but whoever in the Russian govt is running these programs didn't really put a stop to it in time before it became an issue. I am sure that you won't find such inflammatory content (for example supporting Chechen terrorism) on Indian govt channels because at all levels there is recognition of the sensitivities involved. Just giving out excuses like the Russian embassy in India did, that the govt does not have editorial control etc doesn't really cut it either. Nor does the excuse from Redfish that 'why can't we get away with it when Al Jazeera can' - unless they think that the relationship that India has with Russia (at all levels, govt, intelligence, military, public sentiment) is the same as for Qatar.
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