Indian Interests

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ldev
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ldev » 30 Dec 2009 14:11

Post deleted. Do NOT bring RSS or any other organization in such discussions and do NOT discuss another member's affiliations, whether true or not. If you feel someone is delving too much into religious discussion, report the post instead of continuing the OT discussion.
Last edited by archan on 30 Dec 2009 16:55, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Another OT post

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Rudradev » 30 Dec 2009 14:15

nachiket wrote:
ldev wrote:
But the disconnect that Shiv speaks off with the present generation of NRIs is inexplicable. Communication is no longer an issue. The India that they have left behind is changing faster than imaginable. And no amount of brainwashing in Hindu supremacist idealogy can wish away the 150-180 million Indians who are nominally non hindu. The only possible answer is deep seated insecurity among them.

I also wonder whether this insecurity is communicated via genes. More on this later, but the history of Marathas thread in the GDF thread gave me some ideas I will talk about in a later post.


Hold on a second there. I accept that there are varying degrees of disconnect between what NRI's think of the situation in India and the ground reality here. But how did you arrive at the conclusion that NRI's are being brainwashed in "Hindu Supremacist Ideology"? And brainwashed by whom? What is Hindu supremacist ideology anyway?
You can't make any wild claims on this forum without backing them up with evidence and get away with it.



LDev evidently considers us so pathetically gullible that "Wild Claims" are the only sort of discourse he deems necessary to advance his perspective. Consider the drivel about how the US (world's mightiest hyper-Pawar) was first an economic suparipower, and onlee then became a military Pawar to achieve its great Pawar ishtatus.

One gem of sophistry (not to mention misinformation) that has been advanced as an "argument" in favour of this dubious point of view is "which coundree had the biggest GDP in 1915, and which coundree had the biggest naval fleet in 1915"?

The GDP of the US in 1915 had everything to do with the vast natural resources it had accumulated, by establishing territorial supremacy from the Atlantic to the Pacific over the preceding century. These resources were obtained by virtue of extermination of the continent's indigenous population, and the occupation of their lands. This of course was achieved entirely through non-military means. :roll:

The tremendous manpower required to develop those resources came, shackled throat-to-ankle in the holds of ships from Africa. Naturally, military capacity was of no consequence in that process either. Certainly the Africans whose labour built the gigantic agricultural and industrial wealth of the United States were attracted onlee by the tantalizing glow of her economic supari-powerdom (like the Mexicans of today, no doubt).

Finally the colonial exploitation of every Latin American and Caribbean nation ensured that the US' sphere of economic influence dominated the Western Hemisphere completely. This again was achieved, apparently, without any military coercion whatsoever. Banana Republics willingly made slave-labour plantations of themselves for the US' benefit, solely because they were seduced by the US' economic supari-powerdom. The term "Gunboat Diplomacy", often used to describe the process, is misleading because "Gunboat" in Espanol actually refers to "wads of cash".

Oh but but but! Why did the US not have the "biggest naval fleet" in 1915?

Maybe because it didn't have a maritime empire to defend on the scale of European powers who did in fact have larger fleets? Perhaps because it was not menaced by similarly powerful fleets controlled by similarly strong rivals separated from its shores by small bodies of water? Possibly because it had already established unchallenged military supremacy in the American supercontinent that was its declared sphere of influence at the time, and did not calculate that the larger fleets of European powers posed any sort of existential threat (following the War of 1812, the failure of European powers to influence the Civil War, and the Spanish-American war?)

No, none of those factors offer any realistic explanation. It must be because until 1915 the US had concentrated on becoming an economic supari-power onlee, and only then decided to become a military Pawar.

And today of course, the world is just like it was in 1776. The geopolitical situation of India (the Americans' natural al-lie) is not significantly different from the United States two centuries ago. So let us do the same thing onlee. Let us concentrate on economic supari-powerdom and give up all these Hindoo supremacist dreams of imperial expansion. Let us give up our strategic arsenal to demonstrate our bona-fides and secure a Western-approved new clear umbilical cord (now That's "energy independence"!) Let us withdraw troops from Kashmir so that the Pakistanis, key allies against global terrorism, can continue to furnish their sequence of "Al Queda Number threes" in peace. Hell let us give them Kashmir onlee... it is what the Japanese would have done, and our good Prime Minister has announced that he wants us to follow the "Japan model". Why wait for atom bombs to fall on our cities... just admit defeat in advance, it's so much more painless!

If we do all this we will be made into an economic supari-power, and then and only then... a Great Pawar. Promise. After all Condi Auntie said so.

Excuse me now while I go reproduce. Time to pop out a few more RSS-vadi NRIs by bequeathing unto them my bright saffron DNA.

ldev
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ldev » 30 Dec 2009 14:19

vera_k wrote:^^^

This article says that India had regained an investment grade credit rating from Moody's post 1991 but lost it in 1998. The downgrade was not based on the economic situation at hand, but was initiated because they disapproved of the nuclear tests.


There is something called country risk in finance. Foreigners will categorize a country by country risk when investing/lending to a particular country. But Indians even when living abroad will always look at India country risk differently compared to a foreigner. And the reason is that even in the event of default of a foreign currency payment, Indians will always hope for payment in domestic currency in that worst case situation. This domestic currency payment always has higher utility for an Indian even if an NRI or PIO compared to an out and out foreigner. This higher utility results in a higher response rate for Indian investments from Indians. That is not a matter of patriotism. It is simple self interest.
Last edited by ldev on 30 Dec 2009 14:27, edited 1 time in total.

ldev
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ldev » 30 Dec 2009 14:24

Rudradev,

Your long bhashan does not change one basic fact. In the present situation where the cutting edge of India's armed forces relies on critical components or entire products from abroad, India has to pay for those products in foreign exchange. And foreign exchange always forces a comparison of currencies and values. And that means savings in some other countries currencies. And if you do not have that you do not become a global power. No country has become a global power based on somebody else's currency. The Chinese are trying very hard, and its a huge gamble, but then the Chinese are always big gamblers. I dont think that the Government of India will ever gamble with the future of India the way the Chinese government gambles with the future of their people. In the absence of that, economic growth has to come first to pay for the armed forces.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby archan » 30 Dec 2009 15:17

Locked for moderation. Some heads might roll.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby archan » 30 Dec 2009 17:04

Okay!
So this thread has been going awfully OT and I see many users have been contributing to it. I was initially going to issue an official warning to every one but I suppose an unofficial warning will do for now. Your deleted posts are in your "user notes" (which admins/mods can see) and if you repeat these antics, you will get warnings or a ban.
Now
1) No more discussion about NRIs vs. resident Indians.
2) No more discussion about Hindutva, RSS ityadi.
3) Note to shiv: you have made a series of posts, apparently generalizing what is an NRI mentality when it comes to perceiving threats to India and how far off they are from reality on the ground. I am surprised that a person as learned as you could make a sweeping generalization. I had noted in one of my response to you that what one NRI says may not represent what all of them think. By making this generalization you have done a disservice to the forum IMO because I see many users quoting your posts and it is leading to thread derailment. I know it is not all your fault and I am not one to say so either. But as a responsible senior member, I hope you would rethink. Thank you.

With this I reopen the thread.

** anyone who quotes or responds to the posts marked OT by me will be warned or banned ***
Had I gone through with official warnings, some of you might have qualified for a ban today.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby somnath » 30 Dec 2009 18:22

Archan,

Saw a post deleted with a "warning"..Puzzled, as I was responding to a statement made by another moderator:

ramana wrote:What was the reaction when NRIs bought up all those Resurgent India bonds after the 1998 tests?


and the subsequent post from Acharya on this..

And where did I discuss "religion" in the post?? It was simply clarifying the point that NRIs investing in RIBs has nothing to do with patriotism, only sound investment sense..

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2009 18:48

OK let me once again try and say things that are difficult to say and no - I am not going to bash NRIs or someone. Thoughts occur in flashes but without an ability to express them they stay locked up inside.

One of the trains of thoughts that has intrigued me is as follows but first a disclaimer. I am not saying what I am going to say in order to cause anger and if you do feel angry please hold back and let me have my say. i sometimes say difficult things but let me try and put it across.
My thoughts are related to two points:
1) What is in India's interest
2) What is and what should be the way we talk about Muslims on BRF based on the reality that they are equal citizens. I am mentioning BRF alone here although I believe some of BRFs attitudes actually represent Indian attitudes in general. But that is a sweeping generalization - so a few words about that.

A point has been made about "sweeping generalizations" about NRIs. Sweeping generalizations about anyone can never be wholly right - so by the same token let me start by saying that sweeping generalizations of Indian Muslims are also likely to be inaccurate.

BRF has tended to show a particular frank and "in your face" attitude towards Muslims. If all non Muslim Indians showed the same attitudes that we fearlessly display on this forum - India would be unlivable for Muslims. But although India is not unlivable for Muslims it does not mean that the attitudes towards Muslims expressed on BRF are absent on the ground in India. They are obviously present. So how does one gauge how a Muslim feels in India?

"How a Muslim feels in India" has been described in many colorful ways - but there are some things that can be said about "How Muslims feel" on this forum that will attract little or no opposition. Nobody on this forum would be able to present cogent counter arguments if the following feelings were attributed to Indian Muslims
    1) They are full of grievances and want special treatment
    2) They will support Ummah first and think about India later.
    3) They stick to each other (probably a variant of 2 above)

The above 3 points are sweeping generalizations that appear to be true.

Let us assume they are true (I am willing to listen to arguments that show how these points are not true, but I don't recall hearing too many such arguments on the forum). So let me set up this possible strawman, and assume that all 3 points are true of Indian Muslims

If these points are true of Indian Muslims it is usually interpreted in the following way: "Muslims are cocky self centered violent people who do not have an iota of love for the land and look to Saudi Arabia (or Pakistan) for inspiration even as they try and grab more and more from other Indians (usually Hindus)

But, if you are willing to look at this in another way the above 3 points could also indicate the behavior of a community that is shit scared of being mauled any minute by a threatening and hostile majority who do not like them one bit. Every one of the following attributes of Muslims (to repeat)
    1) They are full of grievances and want special treatment
    2) They will support Ummah first and think about India later.
    3) They stick to each other (probably a variant of 2 above)

All this can be explained as the behavior of a scared community. Any group that is full of fear, but wishes to coexist, and yet want to retain their religion is likely to behave in this way. After all, we could ask this community "OK you buggers - now grovel and beg for mercy" This would only cause more fear. Asking them to discard their religion too would cause fear. Their only way out short of complete capitulation, grovelling and conversion is to ask that they be allowed to live with their religion and to look for support from anyone who gives it to them. Let me use an analogy. If, tomorrow, I am attacked for belonging to a particular community, I will seek support from anyone who offers it to me. Failing that I will fight for my rights because it is my last stand.

Now why don't we Hindus see Muslims as a scared community? That is because we have convinced ourselves that we Hindus have been defeated and Muslims have nothing to fear from us because we are so nice and gentle. In India any Hindu who accuses other Hindus of any violence is usually condemned as an anti Hindu pseudosecular. Hindus do not want to see themselves as threatening. There is a distinct preference for Hindus to see themselves as a defeated aggrieved community who would not harm a hair on anyone's body. So the idea that Indian Muslims as a community are actually a scared community sh1tting brix is alien to most of us. It goes against everything we have taught ourselves to believe about Hindu behavior and Muslim characteristics.

So people - thanks for getting this far, but I put it to you that it is possible to start viewing Indian Muslims as a minority group that is scared. Hindus are scaring them and any statement that this is happening is denied by Hindus who say "Who? We? Hindu? Scaring Muslims? :rotfl: Tell me another one. Such a harmless community as Hindus never existed on earth. And Muslim violence speaks for itself"

But folks. It is there. We have scared the crap out of Muslims. We need to look at them differently and see if we can give them a break. Revenge for past atrocities is one thing. But remember - No generalizations no? And no collective punishment. And Indian Muslims are as Indian as Mizos. We must give them space, at least in our minds, and a modicum of understanding.

This is just an alternate viewpoint. I believe that quest for what is right and just requires that we look at all sorts of possibilities and aspects of the truth. And this is one thought I have been having for some time. I sense these aspects in interactions I have in India and in reading articles by Muslims. There is more to say about Muslim fears - but I will stop here.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Dec 2009 21:54

Shiv: Best to start a separate thread on the issue of "The state (of mind) of Indian Muslims", admins willing. Ofcourse, the challenge for admins will be the likely regress of such a thread to discuss Islam and avoid fist cuffs.

PS: I remember a derivative thread, when Islamism was discussed, where it was explored, if IM's are a discriminated lot ( :( you did not archive them)

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 30 Dec 2009 21:59

Shiv,
Your proclammations are based on the myopia of not looking beyond the current geograpahy of India and also forgetting about the recent past.
There are so many loopholes in your argument that challenging them will surely get me friendly fire (oh! not you, not at all).
This is a nice Taqiya ful argument that will lull all into complacency. Mizos = Muslims.. What the hell??
I doubt if anyone is buying this line of thinking so I won't even bother.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 30 Dec 2009 21:59

Shiv,
Your proclammations are based on the myopia of not looking beyond the current geograpahy of India and also forgetting about the recent past.
There are so many loopholes in your argument that challenging them will surely get me friendly fire (oh! not you, not at all).
This is a nice Taqiya ful argument that will lull all into complacency. Mizos = Muslims.. What the hell??
I doubt if anyone is buying this line of thinking so I won't even bother.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby vera_k » 30 Dec 2009 22:13

Bravo. Now can we extend the same logic to Pakistan? Pakistan is a nation scared of India and barely trying to survive. Actions by some misguided officers in the Pakistan army are just a result of fear psychosis due to Indian aggression. Let us dismantle half the army, move the rest to the Chinese frontier and feed all the starving children.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby munna » 30 Dec 2009 22:15

vera_k wrote:Bravo. Now can we extend the same logic to Pakistan? Pakistan is a nation scared of India and barely trying to survive. Let us dismantle half the army, move the rest to the Chinese frontier and feed all the starving children.

Vera there is a difference between our compatriots and a foreign hostile nation. We are talking our own blood and kins here let us be a little more sympathetic to dissenting views too.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 30 Dec 2009 22:18

Shiv-ji,

You are seeing “Fear for Islamism” where as the opposing POV is just cautious of Islamism’s impact on Indian Interests. Those two are very different.

You are imposing the unproven prejudice in Hindu Majority to support the proven insecurity in IM minority. IM’s insecurity becomes visible in the way that society responds to non-Indian Islamist issues, and its intolerance against secularism and uniform civil code. IM’s majority behavior comes into light in JK and parts of Kerala and Hyderabad.

I posted the correspondence between IM family members in Indian-Elite thread, to give a peek at how a community addresses its own issues if left alone. The young mother (in that post) offers a solution for interested minds. "Show TOUGH LOVE to these pampered kids". I think that is the best approach for the moment. Remove all special-nonsense for selected communities and treat all Indians as same and the people will find suitable ways to solve their problems within the constitutional limits.

Any ideology or individual who cannot fit in Indian constitutional limits, must be given a one way ticket to the place of their dreams.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby derkonig » 30 Dec 2009 22:21

shiv wrote:Now why don't we Hindus see Muslims as a scared community? That is because we have convinced ourselves that we Hindus have been defeated and Muslims have nothing to fear from us because we are so nice and gentle. In India any Hindu who accuses other Hindus of any violence is usually condemned as an anti Hindu pseudosecular. Hindus do not want to see themselves as threatening. There is a distinct preference for Hindus to see themselves as a defeated aggrieved community who would not harm a hair on anyone's body. So the idea that Indian Muslims as a community are actually a scared community sh1tting brix is alien to most of us. It goes against everything we have taught ourselves to believe about Hindu behavior and Muslim characteristics.


Care to give any proof for the above? Show me one instance where Hindus have explicitly 'threatened' the Muslims (pl. don't quote incidents like Guj riots, etc. as in all of these cases, it was the Muslim community which started the problem & then they acted as victims who were all worried and scared to death about backlash & profiling, etc.)

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby vera_k » 30 Dec 2009 22:21

munna wrote:Vera there is a difference between our compatriots and a foreign hostile nation. We are talking our own blood and kins here let us be a little more sympathetic to dissenting views too.


No issues about your statement. I'm trying to point out the ridiculously simplistic assumption that all behaviours can be laid at the doorstep of fear (people being scared of XYZ). If one holds this to be true, then this can be equally applied to Pakistan and would explain the persistent Indo-Pak conflict.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RayC » 30 Dec 2009 22:31

shiv wrote:OK let me once again try and say things that are difficult to say and no - I am not going to bash NRIs or someone. Thoughts occur in flashes but without an ability to express them they stay locked up inside.

One of the trains of thoughts that has intrigued me is as follows but first a disclaimer. I am not saying what I am going to say in order to cause anger and if you do feel angry please hold back and let me have my say. i sometimes say difficult things but let me try and put it across.
My thoughts are related to two points:
1) What is in India's interest
2) What is and what should be the way we talk about Muslims on BRF based on the reality that they are equal citizens. I am mentioning BRF alone here although I believe some of BRFs attitudes actually represent Indian attitudes in general. But that is a sweeping generalization - so a few words about that.

A point has been made about "sweeping generalizations" about NRIs. Sweeping generalizations about anyone can never be wholly right - so by the same token let me start by saying that sweeping generalizations of Indian Muslims are also likely to be inaccurate.

BRF has tended to show a particular frank and "in your face" attitude towards Muslims. If all non Muslim Indians showed the same attitudes that we fearlessly display on this forum - India would be unlivable for Muslims. But although India is not unlivable for Muslims it does not mean that the attitudes towards Muslims expressed on BRF are absent on the ground in India. They are obviously present. So how does one gauge how a Muslim feels in India?

"How a Muslim feels in India" has been described in many colorful ways - but there are some things that can be said about "How Muslims feel" on this forum that will attract little or no opposition. Nobody on this forum would be able to present cogent counter arguments if the following feelings were attributed to Indian Muslims
    1) They are full of grievances and want special treatment
    2) They will support Ummah first and think about India later.
    3) They stick to each other (probably a variant of 2 above)

The above 3 points are sweeping generalizations that appear to be true.

Let us assume they are true (I am willing to listen to arguments that show how these points are not true, but I don't recall hearing too many such arguments on the forum). So let me set up this possible strawman, and assume that all 3 points are true of Indian Muslims

If these points are true of Indian Muslims it is usually interpreted in the following way: "Muslims are cocky self centered violent people who do not have an iota of love for the land and look to Saudi Arabia (or Pakistan) for inspiration even as they try and grab more and more from other Indians (usually Hindus)

But, if you are willing to look at this in another way the above 3 points could also indicate the behavior of a community that is shit scared of being mauled any minute by a threatening and hostile majority who do not like them one bit. Every one of the following attributes of Muslims (to repeat)
    1) They are full of grievances and want special treatment
    2) They will support Ummah first and think about India later.
    3) They stick to each other (probably a variant of 2 above)

All this can be explained as the behavior of a scared community. Any group that is full of fear, but wishes to coexist, and yet want to retain their religion is likely to behave in this way. After all, we could ask this community "OK you buggers - now grovel and beg for mercy" This would only cause more fear. Asking them to discard their religion too would cause fear. Their only way out short of complete capitulation, grovelling and conversion is to ask that they be allowed to live with their religion and to look for support from anyone who gives it to them. Let me use an analogy. If, tomorrow, I am attacked for belonging to a particular community, I will seek support from anyone who offers it to me. Failing that I will fight for my rights because it is my last stand.

Now why don't we Hindus see Muslims as a scared community? That is because we have convinced ourselves that we Hindus have been defeated and Muslims have nothing to fear from us because we are so nice and gentle. In India any Hindu who accuses other Hindus of any violence is usually condemned as an anti Hindu pseudosecular. Hindus do not want to see themselves as threatening. There is a distinct preference for Hindus to see themselves as a defeated aggrieved community who would not harm a hair on anyone's body. So the idea that Indian Muslims as a community are actually a scared community sh1tting brix is alien to most of us. It goes against everything we have taught ourselves to believe about Hindu behavior and Muslim characteristics.

So people - thanks for getting this far, but I put it to you that it is possible to start viewing Indian Muslims as a minority group that is scared. Hindus are scaring them and any statement that this is happening is denied by Hindus who say "Who? We? Hindu? Scaring Muslims? :rotfl: Tell me another one. Such a harmless community as Hindus never existed on earth. And Muslim violence speaks for itself"

But folks. It is there. We have scared the crap out of Muslims. We need to look at them differently and see if we can give them a break. Revenge for past atrocities is one thing. But remember - No generalizations no? And no collective punishment. And Indian Muslims are as Indian as Mizos. We must give them space, at least in our minds, and a modicum of understanding.

This is just an alternate viewpoint. I believe that quest for what is right and just requires that we look at all sorts of possibilities and aspects of the truth. And this is one thought I have been having for some time. I sense these aspects in interactions I have in India and in reading articles by Muslims. There is more to say about Muslim fears - but I will stop here.


Good analysis.

I am not afraid of the minorities.

How many NE chaps on this forum?

If not, why not?

They are educated and equally Indians!

Why are they taken as aliens in Delhi?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 30 Dec 2009 22:38

^^^^ Lo shuru ho gaya garba

Please revisit
- Partition of India
- Treatment of minorities in Af-Pak and Bangladesh
- Treatment of minorities in J&K
- Treatment of minorities in districts in West Bengal, Kerela, UP
- Ethnic cleansing in Lebanon - Christian pop went from 71% to less than 50% in 30-40 years. Check out their condition

Everyone should be equal-shequal but let us not forget history and what happens in the world.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Arjun » 30 Dec 2009 22:42

Shiv, not sure what you are trying to get at. From what I can see you have moved on from making gross unwarranted generalizatons about NRIs to making gross unwarranted generalizations about the BRF forum.

There seems to be a consistent attempt by you ( and RayC in the past) to paint BRF as a Hindutvavaadi forum - not sure what the agenda is behind this. Any attempt to portray this forum as anything other than a nationalist forum that bases itself off rational, logical thinking - is doing the forum a disservice and in my mind counts as libel.

Any forum is fundamentally defined by the policies and rules on posting, and the enforcement of these. I presume your point is that gross unwarranted generalizations about IMs are allowed by the forum. If indeed it were so - certainly what you say would be true, but is that indeed the case? Are you saying these unwarranted generalizations of IMs happened when you were a moderator or have been happening since then? If the former, obviously you as moderator were the culprit for not putting in a place and enforcing a consistent policy. If the latter, are you claiming the current set of moderators have been lax in allowing posts that do resort to sterotyping and unwarranted generalizations regarding Muslims? If so that is a serious allegation. Since the policies regarding religious stereotyping, as far as I know, have been in place for a while - what prevented you as a concerned BRFite from reporting the posts to Moderators. Are there posts that you had concerns about and reported - and the moderators did not agree with you? Can you bring these up, so we can determine if they had crossed the line?

The only standard that I would want this forum to stick to is to ensure that all posts whether pro-Christian, pro-Hindu of pro-Muslim - stick to standards of rational and logical debate. Any that don't need to be reported to moderators so that action can be taken. Obviously this is a self-reinforcing system where posters that have trouble meeting logical standards and making logical inferences will soon be weeded out. It is as simple as that.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby archan » 30 Dec 2009 22:43

ShauryaT wrote:Shiv: Best to start a separate thread on the issue of "The state (of mind) of Indian Muslims", admins willing.

No.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Jarita » 30 Dec 2009 22:59

Lebanon is a fascinating case study
The Syrian attack on Lebanon and final ethnic takeover was facilitated by pple of a select ideology in lebanon who allied with the Syrians. In face of that the minority or equal community (40-50% of pop) suddenly became the majority.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_gro ... nic_groups

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby vera_k » 30 Dec 2009 23:04

ldev wrote:There is something called country risk in finance. Foreigners will categorize a country by country risk when investing/lending to a particular country. But Indians even when living abroad will always look at India country risk differently compared to a foreigner. And the reason is that even in the event of default of a foreign currency payment, Indians will always hope for payment in domestic currency in that worst case situation. This domestic currency payment always has higher utility for an Indian even if an NRI or PIO compared to an out and out foreigner. This higher utility results in a higher response rate for Indian investments from Indians. That is not a matter of patriotism. It is simple self interest.


If people cannot hope to get paid in a form that increases the amount of money invested, how can it be said that the investment was made out of self interest? Wouldn't their economic self interest be better served by waiting until the country defaults and then buying the domestic currency at fire sale prices?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby KLNMurthy » 30 Dec 2009 23:57

shiv wrote:
...

But, if you are willing to look at this in another way the above 3 points could also indicate the behavior of a community that is shit scared of being mauled any minute by a threatening and hostile majority who do not like them one bit. Every one of the following attributes of Muslims (to repeat)
    1) They are full of grievances and want special treatment
    2) They will support Ummah first and think about India later.
    3) They stick to each other (probably a variant of 2 above)

All this can be explained as the behavior of a scared community. Any group that is full of fear, but wishes to coexist, and yet want to retain their religion is likely to behave in this way. After all, we could ask this community "OK you buggers - now grovel and beg for mercy" This would only cause more fear. Asking them to discard their religion too would cause fear. Their only way out short of complete capitulation, grovelling and conversion is to ask that they be allowed to live with their religion and to look for support from anyone who gives it to them. Let me use an analogy. If, tomorrow, I am attacked for belonging to a particular community, I will seek support from anyone who offers it to me. Failing that I will fight for my rights because it is my last stand.

Now why don't we Hindus see Muslims as a scared community? That is because we have convinced ourselves that we Hindus have been defeated and Muslims have nothing to fear from us because we are so nice and gentle. In India any Hindu who accuses other Hindus of any violence is usually condemned as an anti Hindu pseudosecular. Hindus do not want to see themselves as threatening. There is a distinct preference for Hindus to see themselves as a defeated aggrieved community who would not harm a hair on anyone's body. So the idea that Indian Muslims as a community are actually a scared community sh1tting brix is alien to most of us. It goes against everything we have taught ourselves to believe about Hindu behavior and Muslim characteristics.

So people - thanks for getting this far, but I put it to you that it is possible to start viewing Indian Muslims as a minority group that is scared. Hindus are scaring them and any statement that this is happening is denied by Hindus who say "Who? We? Hindu? Scaring Muslims? :rotfl: Tell me another one. Such a harmless community as Hindus never existed on earth. And Muslim violence speaks for itself"

But folks. It is there. We have scared the crap out of Muslims. We need to look at them differently and see if we can give them a break. Revenge for past atrocities is one thing. But remember - No generalizations no? And no collective punishment. And Indian Muslims are as Indian as Mizos. We must give them space, at least in our minds, and a modicum of understanding.

This is just an alternate viewpoint. I believe that quest for what is right and just requires that we look at all sorts of possibilities and aspects of the truth. And this is one thought I have been having for some time. I sense these aspects in interactions I have in India and in reading articles by Muslims. There is more to say about Muslim fears - but I will stop here.


I agree with you to the extent that I too have generally felt that the gestalt of BRF is not welcoming to Indian Muslims.

However, in relation to the point about IMs being scared of Hindus, I would not be the only one pointing out that this fear (real or not, we don't know for certain, since we are mostly non-Muslims discussing the state of mind of Muslims) is exactly the foundation of Pakistan, and for its mad obsession with crushing Hindus before they crush them.

The second point is that, other than in immediate adrenalin-generating instances (such as being confronted by a tiger or a mob baying for one's blood), most modern-day fears are a product of imagination--you imagine that someone will do something to you, or to some entity or concept that is important to you, and then you develop a kind of abstract fear. This kind of fear has an element of choice: you can decide that you won't be afraid, and deal with reality rather than your imagination, or you can remain fearful (and therefore aggressive, a perpetual victim in your own mind, and refusing to take any moral responsibility). In other words, we need to take another look at the idea that the Muslims' fear is caused by Hindus' conduct, and consider the possibility that this fear is more of a primary phenomenon, arising in the imagination.

So, while all Indians including those on this forum have an obligation to treat all other Indians (including Muslims) with courtesy, respect, fairness, equality and dignity, they ultimately have no control over the fear that someone may be feeling. After all, if they decide to become afraid, they could simply interpret the courtesy etc. as taquiyya, confirming their fears.

What I would conclude is this: there is a lot that is actually healthy, normal and within the range of non-traitorous and patriotic behavior in Indian Muslims (how proportional this behavior is to the proportion of Muslim population we don't know), and such normalcy is exactly the outcome of said Muslims deciding to not allow fear to dictate their behavior as Indians. I think there is a lot of truth in what you say about a sense of fear pervading the Indian Muslim mindset, therefore it is all the more remarkable that so many of them have the strength to overcome that atmosphere and contribute positively. This ability of its people is exactly what I love about India.

As for the fear itself, the only answer I have is to repeat the need to maintain dignity & respect while being honest in communication. The last is important, because platitudes and soothing lies are always seen through, and will only deepen contempt and suspicion.

RamaY
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 31 Dec 2009 00:27

KLNMurthy wrote:I agree with you to the extent that I too have generally felt that the gestalt of BRF is not welcoming to Indian Muslims.


I disagree!

I made it a point to invite a IM friend to this forum. My friend felt at home on BRF except the BENIS-Dhaga. I listend to his point passionately, and explained the logic behind it. My friend even tried to become a member of this forum, but faced some technical difficulties. I reached out the admins on that.

An average IM is not averse to an honest and open discussion. It is our fault that we somehow think we need to bend backwards to make them feel at home. That is the logic I despise.

Perhaps, all of us should make it a point to invite our IM friends to this forum, atleast as lurkers.
Last edited by RamaY on 31 Dec 2009 00:29, edited 2 times in total.

derkonig
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby derkonig » 31 Dec 2009 00:28

Lets also discuss this whole alleged 'fear' in the IM society. Does it really exist? Or is this 'fear' just a ruse to stay away from the mainstream and remain ghettoized? Is this fear rational or is it a defence mechanism or an alibi to justify wrongdoings? Are there instances and incidents that can justify this fear?

nachiket
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby nachiket » 31 Dec 2009 00:52

derkonig wrote:Lets also discuss this whole alleged 'fear' in the IM society. Does it really exist? Or is this 'fear' just a ruse to stay away from the mainstream and remain ghettoized? Is this fear rational or is it a defence mechanism or an alibi to justify wrongdoings? Are there instances and incidents that can justify this fear?


How are these questions to be answered here when there are few or no posters from the IM community on this forum (for whatever reasons)? I would say it is better to drop the whole discussion on "the IM community". I'm sure there are many other things to talk about concerning Indian Interests.

archan
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby archan » 31 Dec 2009 06:21

yes nachiket, but who needs IMs when we have experts who can lay down their mentality threadbare. Everything is an "Indian Interest" apparently. Since users cannot keep thread discipline and I don't see much good coming out from this thread, let us have no Indian Interests thread.

RayC
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RayC » 31 Dec 2009 12:26

There seems to be a consistent attempt by you ( and RayC in the past) to paint BRF as a Hindutvavaadi forum


No BRF is not a Hinduvta forum and don't involve me in what is your dream.

However there are many Hinduvta fanboys as posters.

That is the difference!


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