India and Japan: News and Discussion

[Suppiah]

^^ Yes, absolutely.

Lakshmikanth garu, I have not been there for a few years, though was there quite often over 10+ years, spending months there sometimes. Perhaps the recent quake + disputes with China + India's growth story has chastened some of the pure there. As I said, you will also come across extraordinary levels of courtesy and politeness that makes you embarrassed sometimes..

I love many things about Japan/ese, including its food, seasons,work culture and so on..but there definitely is this superiority complex which can be dealt with.

I think japan will look for the exit vis-a-vis China. ASEAN would be the first beneficiary. Some spillovers will come our way. Better grab it fast.

[D Roy]

gentlemen,

please do note that it isn't about whether Japan wants to merge the ATD-X/F-3 and AMCA projects or whether their parliament will amend their constitution to allow them to do so.

It is more about the fact that they have removed Indian entities from their own entity list. And when Japan does things like this, unlike the US, it means something.

Once we start getting unfettered access to hi-tech components from Japan we can prototype AMCA et al so quickly that Chicom will be left wondering why exactly did their gleat chicom leadership make an enemy out of India.

[nakul]

gentlemen,

please do note that it isn't about whether Japan wants to merge the ATD-X/F-3 and AMCA projects or whether their parliament will amend their constitution to allow them to do so.

It is more about the fact that they have removed Indian entities from thei own entity list. And when Japan does things like this, unlike the US, it means something.

Once we start getting unfettered access to hi-tech components from Japan we can prototype AMCA et al so quickly that Chicom will be left wondering why exactly did their gleat chicom leadership make an enemy out of India.

+1

The Soviet Union/Russia also relied on hi tech Japanese machining tools. They are already a superpower in advanced techs.

[member_23677]

^^^ What a ride , from discussing about carving out separate Japan to over appraisal of Japan. Anyways, the point I was making was there are 200 countries in the world, you can't carve out 200 different countries for these people. They have to assimilate in our culture and live here,just like an Indian would when he goes to Japan, Amreeka,Urinal Queendom etc. , learn english, learn their culture or atleast what to avoid etc. Don't know why some people have hard time applying the same rule here. Let the Japanese,Amreekis etc learn about India from Indian perspective,learn Hindi, assimilate here if they are living here. I could care less if a Japanese person in japan feels that he is superior to others,as long as he lives like an equal in my country and learns the ways of life here.

[Prem]

They are much advance in extracting methane noodles from ocean floor and this tech can give us energy security like no import.Machines, Tools, manufacturing experrise and energy extraction can do good to us. It take care of 2 fundamental weaknessess of India.

[member_23677]

They are much advance in extracting methane noodles from ocean floor and this tech can give us energy security like no import.Machines, Tools, manufacturing experrise and energy extraction can do good to us. It take care of 2 fundamental weknessess of India.

Nothing justifies carving out new lands for guests. Guests become the family when you assimilate them in your family...

[shiv]

My experience at school was that the Japanese-American kids are fine, while the FOB Japanese were a close knit clique who stuck together and couldn't be seen even hanging out with the other kids.

These are the bosses and families who are in a minority and seen on the golf course, ladies wearing pink gloves. They train locals to work their way.

[ramana]

In 1980 my flight got delayed and I ended up in Mumbai Centaur Hotel. I met a Japanese engineer who was wooking in India as a consultant and loved his owrk. The point is Japanese have a long connection to India and dont need any enclaves etc. They can adjust.

As Droy posted the important thing now is they have revised the entity list and this is because of China threat.

All along every one thought the China threat is to India but Japan is feeling th ehat first and and is coming to terms with it.

Expect more INA memories to be brought up.

[RajeshA]

The downside of enclaves is that the Japanese would end up building a ghetto all for themselves, where the only Indians they will interact with are those providing services like household help, gardening, cleaners, etc. and thus they may inadvertently develop the attitude of colonialists and masters towards Indians.

What is preferable is that they be made to feel welcome in other ways, through extending Indian hospitality as well as respect towards their culture as well. I would consider it in fact positive if more Japanese restaurants and "food stalls" set up shop in Indian metropoles, and some Japanese Buddhist temples are also allowed space there. Perhaps a couple of Japanese gardens in a few cities or their outskirts would be good. All these facilities can be visited by both Japanese businessmen as well as Indians. What is happening in Anime and Manga is actually phenomenal, and Indian artists themselves may like to have some Japanese presence in India in the arts, which can also enrich Indian art scene.

If Indians too learn a few words of Japanese, it adds another level of hospitality. India ought to meet Japan exclusively as Indians and not as some Anglophile tattus.

Japanese visitors would feel appreciated by the Indians and they would neither be excluded nor secluded but become part of the Indian life.

[member_23677]

The downside of enclaves is that the Japanese would end up building a ghetto all for themselves, where the only Indians they will interact with are those providing services like household help, gardening, cleaners, etc. and thus they may inadvertently develop the attitude of colonialists and masters towards Indians.

What is preferable is that they be made to feel welcome in other ways, through extending Indian hospitality as well as respect towards their culture as well. I would consider it in fact positive if more Japanese restaurants and "food stalls" set up shop in Indian metropoles, and some Japanese Buddhist temples are also allowed space there. Perhaps a couple of Japanese gardens in a few cities or their outskirts would be good. All these facilities can be visited by both Japanese businessmen as well as Indians. What is happening in Anime and Manga is actually phenomenal, and Indian artists themselves may like to have some Japanese presence in India in the arts, which can also enrich Indian art scene.

If Indians too learn a few words of Japanese, it adds another level of hospitality. India ought to meet Japan exclusively as Indians and not as some Anglophile tattus.

Japanese visitors would feel appreciated by the Indians and they would neither be excluded nor secluded but become part of the Indian life.

I highly doubt there is any such feeling as they weren't able to control India. Also, why are you assuming that they will come to our country and become the boss? If they are in our country, they have to adopt to this lifestyle. I don't see where the question of ghetto comes here. They can live among us, this multi-cultural crap only creates cultural bubbles and it will weaken the country pretty badly, if you can see what I mean

[chaanakya]

While not generalising, my own experience indicates that Japanese are friendly to Indians. They have been investing in India for a very long time. By and large their policies are friendly towards India. In some cases compulsion of USA orientation is seen (esp Nuclear trade, Dual purpose tech etc) which is inevitable. Now that is also cleared and way is open for them to institute even more friendly policies. This is reflected in entities list.
If they come to India and invest on still bigger scale and if it suits our interests and policies well and good. We should welcome it. They would bring good practices and also gel with local populace with little or no trouble except for mad traffic and poor roads.

JMT

[member_23677]

While not generalising, my own experience indicates that Japanese are friendly to Indians. They have been investing in India for a very long time. By and large their policies are friendly towards India. In some cases compulsion of USA orientation is seen (esp Nuclear trade, Dual purpose tech etc) which is inevitable. Now that is also cleared and way is open for them to institute even more friendly policies. This is reflected in entities list.
If they come to India and invest on still bigger scale and if it suits our interests and policies well and good. We should welcome it. They would bring good practices and also gel with local populace with little or no trouble except for mad traffic and poor roads.

JMT

Don't worry, they are being improved...

[D Roy]

the Japanese don't want ghettos.

Some of them ( top executives) are happy to stay in the gated communities/ microcities springing up all around India with a
hyper market in tow.

another set are pretty cool staying in delhi colonies like even vasant kunj dda etc.

and there is a third group which wants to live in more crowded mohalla type places amongst aam janta.

I have not come across anybody wanting Little Tokyo.

if you have actually heard somebody talking on these lines or are conveying an actual desire, I personally will be happy to hear about it.

[member_23677]

the Japanese don't want ghettos.

Some of them ( top executives) are happy to stay in the gated communities/ microcities springing up all around India with a
hyper market in tow.

another set are pretty cool staying in delhi colonies like even vasant kunj dda etc.

and there is a third group which wants to live in more crowded mohalla type places amongst aam janta.

I have not come across anybody wanting Little Tokyo.

if you have actually heard somebody talking on these lines or are conveying an actual desire, I personally will be happy to hear about it.

Why so? Also, the general tone is not directed to Japanese but others too, we shouldn't create divides and keep outsiders as outsiders... gated communities and ghettos do just that.... and once it starts we all how quickly it may escalate to unsafe levels.

[RajeshA]

The downside of enclaves is that the Japanese would end up building a ghetto all for themselves, where the only Indians they will interact with are those providing services like household help, gardening, cleaners, etc. and thus they may inadvertently develop the attitude of colonialists and masters towards Indians.

What is preferable is that they be made to feel welcome in other ways, through extending Indian hospitality as well as respect towards their culture as well. I would consider it in fact positive if more Japanese restaurants and "food stalls" set up shop in Indian metropoles, and some Japanese Buddhist temples are also allowed space there. Perhaps a couple of Japanese gardens in a few cities or their outskirts would be good. All these facilities can be visited by both Japanese businessmen as well as Indians. What is happening in Anime and Manga is actually phenomenal, and Indian artists themselves may like to have some Japanese presence in India in the arts, which can also enrich Indian art scene.

If Indians too learn a few words of Japanese, it adds another level of hospitality. India ought to meet Japan exclusively as Indians and not as some Anglophile tattus.

Japanese visitors would feel appreciated by the Indians and they would neither be excluded nor secluded but become part of the Indian life.

I highly doubt there is any such feeling as they weren't able to control India. Also, why are you assuming that they will come to our country and become the boss? If they are in our country, they have to adopt to this lifestyle. I don't see where the question of ghetto comes here. They can live among us, this multi-cultural crap only creates cultural bubbles and it will weaken the country pretty badly, if you can see what I mean

As things stand, India is really only bi-cultural and not multi-cultural - You have Bharat and you have Anglophones/America-lovers.

When it is bi-cultural, one culture with time becomes dominant and the other fades away. The process can take 3-5 generations, but it can happen. Considering that Anglophone culture is considered the passport to progress in career, one gets the idea which of the two cultures would ultimately win, i.e. unless Bharat regains its narrative and makes its way into administration, business, education and sciences.

However if one allows "multi-culturalism", every foreign culture present and available is just one of the many, and the link culture becomes the dominant culture and can retain its dominance.

So if one gets Thais, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Indonesian, and a host of other cultures spreading around in India, the possibility increases that Bharat wins over the Anglophonic cacophony.

In any case, if India has to again become the center of the world, being host to a presence of subcultures from all over the world is simply a natural development.

[member_23677]

I highly doubt there is any such feeling as they weren't able to control India. Also, why are you assuming that they will come to our country and become the boss? If they are in our country, they have to adopt to this lifestyle. I don't see where the question of ghetto comes here. They can live among us, this multi-cultural crap only creates cultural bubbles and it will weaken the country pretty badly, if you can see what I mean

As things stand, India is really only bi-cultural and not multi-cultural - You have Bharat and you have Anglophones/America-lovers.

When it is bi-cultural, one culture with time becomes dominant and the other fades away. The process can take 3-5 generations, but it can happen. Considering that Anglophone culture is considered the passport to progress in career, one gets the idea which of the two cultures would ultimately win, i.e. unless Bharat regains its narrative and makes its way into administration, business, education and sciences.

However if one allows "multi-culturalism", every foreign culture present and available is just one of the many, and the link culture becomes the dominant culture and can retain its dominance.

So if one gets Thais, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Indonesian, and a host of other cultures spreading around in India, the possibility increases that Bharat wins over the Anglophonic cacophony.

In any case, if India has to again become the center of the world, being host to a presence of subcultures from all over the world is simply a natural development.[/quote]

Nice idea,but I don't think the Bhartiya culture will fade, only 11% of India actually gives english any importance other than their professional lives...

[Singha]

I have seen japanese and koreans here living in middle to upper middle class apartments and managing. seen plenty of them travelling in delhi metro as well. there are a lot of korean kids in my son's school.

both these cultures seem not inclined to the isolationism of the EU/US/Aus types who prefer to live in gated comms , interact only with household help and generally want to have a driver and personal vehicle for their every need.

same would go for other ASEAN cultures, they will fit more easily in indian context than the EU/US/Aus types ever will on avg.

many of these people are also used to living in flats .... while US/Aus types want to live in individual homes !

hanging clothes to dry on rods poking out of windows or in apartment lobbies is common in Singapore ! (in apts where everyone owns atleast a camcord)

they can manage and drive in chaotic traffic without a driver !

rice and fish is a common binding glue !

[member_23677]

I have seen japanese and koreans here living in middle to upper middle class apartments and managing. seen plenty of them travelling in delhi metro as well. there are a lot of korean kids in my son's school.

both these cultures seem not inclined to the isolationism of the EU/US/Aus types who prefer to live in gated comms , interact only with household help and generally want to have a driver and personal vehicle for their every need.

same would go for other ASEAN cultures, they will fit more easily in indian context than the EU/US/Aus types ever will on avg.

many of these people are also used to living in flats .... while US/Aus types want to live in individual homes !

hanging clothes to dry on rods poking out of windows or in apartment lobbies is common in Singapore ! (in apts where everyone owns atleast a camcord)

they can manage and drive in chaotic traffic without a driver !

rice and fish is a common binding glue !

Singhaji!! Which place do you live in ?

[RajeshA]

Nice idea,but I don't think the Bhartiya culture will fade, only 11% of India actually gives english any importance other than their professional lives...

That may be so, but the Anglophonic culture in India should simply become one of the many from the rest of the world at home in India. It should lose its elite standing. Broadening the cultural interaction of India as Bharatiyas, would help in this correction.

[D Roy]

P.Bhagat,

Read that last line a little closely.

I am not saying that I would be "happy" to hear the "fact of" somebody "wanting to live" in a "little tokyo".

But if this discussion is actually based on the transmission of such a desire by some entity, I would want to hear more (and that is were I use the word "happy" in a manner of speaking) about what they are proposing. Because then we would know that this entire discussion is not conjecture but something that certain quarters are actually thinking about.

Comprende?

[Singha]

A business hotel very targeted to japanese extended stay travellers is going to come up in blr soon. The decor, furnishings and food will be made japanese to keep them happy on longish trips and staff would be fluent in their language and culture

[Suppiah]

The Japs n Koreans who come are not tycoons they are just folks like us..middle class. As Indian middle class lifestyle gets closer to their own, they will feel at home.

Having said that, no harm in inviting a few Thais to setup restaurants, bars and maybe brothels to keep the salary man happy.

[JE Menon]

and you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be just the sarariman in that case

[Rony]

After discussing security cooperation with India, Japan is drawing closer to Taiwan and viceversa

Crises strengthen Japan-Taiwan ties

[devesh]

http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry ... st-century

Demographic Sunset in the Land of the Rising Sun: Japan in the 21st Century

Everyone has a favourite iconic Japanese consumer product – the Sony Walkman, a Panasonic DVD recorder, Blu-ray disc player, a Canon, Nikon, Minolta or Pentax camera or even a Toyota Prius. But this century will witness the long, slow sunset of Japan’s power.

That’s because the country’s ageing and depopulating society will drag the economy down with it, as it has already started to do.

“There’s a difference between being comfortable and being viable. We are gradually losing our viability… Japan has been utterly defeated as an economy. We’re losing the economic game.” Tadashi Yanai, CEO of Fast Retailing

“Our choice is rebirth or ruin.”—Yoichi Funabashi in “Japan’s Zero Hour”

Although there is a moderate danger before 2050 of a nationalistic war with China, [1] the new Asian giant, it is more likely that Japan will manage its century-long decline in relative peace, probably accompanied by a final flowering of exquisite Japanese art and literature, tinged with nostalgic tones. Then, after several decades of graceful decline, population ageing and demographic shrinkage, the country will face colonisation by an Asian power. If the conquerors subsequently inter-breed with the Japanese, it could mean an eventual vanishing of Japan within a generation or two of this conquest. Another great civilisation will have been consigned to history, at some time in the 22nd century, fatally weakened from within by a depopulation process which began, ironically, in the midst of the nation’s greatest economic boom.

The key to understanding the anticipated collapse of Japan lies in its demographics. Japanese depopulation is starkly evident in the forecasted decline of its total population [2] in the most current national population statistics based on census data.

The high-point of Japan’s population was 128 million, but it is projected to decrease by 2060 to just over 85 million. By 2100, it is anticipated to collapse to 37.9 million. [3] To shrink from 128 million people to around 38 million people in this century would mean losing approximately 90 million citizens in 90 years, a severe average depopulation rate of 1 million people every year. That’s like losing annually the combined populations of the cities of Las Vegas and Miami.

The National Institute of Population and Social Security Research in Tokyo indicates that Japan started suffering net losses of population from 2005, the year in which there were more deaths than births for the first time since records began. [4] By 2010, there were 126,000 more deaths than births.

2005, then, is the year depopulation officially kicked in to cause net losses to Japan’s national population. The crude death rate in that year (8.6%) exceeded the birth rate (8.4%) for the very first time. By 2010 the death rate had risen to 9.5% with the birth rate at 8.5%.

In 2005, Japan became a society in which more people die each year than are born.

One cause of depopulation, which is likely to lead to the downfall of Japan if it is not reversed, is a collapse in the total fertility rate (TFR) for Japanese females in their child-bearing years (from 15-49). This TFR fell precipitously from 5.10 in 1925 to an exceptionally low 1.39 by 2010 (compared to a UN world average of 2.52 for 2010). [5] The replacement rate for a population is two children per woman. With its TFR not just below 2 but now under 1.5, it is not surprising that Japan’s population is shrinking and getting older. The CIA World Factbook ranks Japan 202 out of 222 countries in its country comparison table for TFRs. [6] Japan’s net reproduction rate fell by over half from 108.2 in 1925 to 44.0 by 2010.

Ominously, such a depletion of population will be accompanied by an equally significant fall in economically active citizens (those in the working age bracket of 15-64).

This shrinking population with its declining workforce will also be ageing. Sadly, the only aspect of Japan’s population which will continue to grow relative to other age groups will be its senior citizenry (those aged 65 and over).

The mean age of the Japanese is expected to rise from 45 years old in 2010 to 54.6 years old by 2060. [7] We are looking at the world’s oldest society. [8]

Japan from now on, then, will be characterised by a rapidly decreasing population (through its falling birth rate and TFR), a shrinking number of workers, a declining young age group and an escalating aged population. [9]

The IMF estimates Japan’s GDP could fall 20 percent over this century if its population shrinks as expected. [10] The 65+ age group will also become a much larger part of society, turning Japan into a gray society, whilst by 2060 only half of the nation will be in the working age group driving the economy.

In short, Japan will be a gradually contracting society experiencing a serious, and possibly terminal, demographic crisis. I believe it is impossible for a society with this demographic profile to sustain competitive rates of economic growth in the long-term, given the costs of looking after the elderly, [11] the loss of taxation income for the government, the depletion of labour and productivity and the fact that older people do not spend and buy as easily as their younger counterparts (consumer spending accounts for about 60 percent of Japan’s GDP).

The prognostic signs of Japanese depopulation were emptying hamlets known as genkai shuraku [12] (“terminal or limited villages”) which began to appear in the rural areas of the country in the 1980s, as had been warned by some prescient social scientists as early as the mid-1970s. [13]

But it is long-term, continuous depopulation which becomes a fatal disease for any society. Depopulation will be a malignant social cancer, eating away at the heart of a nation.

It is not just these population projections on paper which are a concern. For Japan has important psycho-cultural problems exacerbating these demographic trends. The nation appears to be suffering from a strange, unprecedented sociological malaise which is destroying the family structure and its critical child-bearing role, a loss of national vitality characterised by declining belief in marriage, decreasing fertility rates of females, shrinking families and the spread of isolation and fatalism.

The structure of the family in Japan has been critically weakened. Political economist and demographer with the American Enterprise Institute, Nicholas Eberstadt, explains that between 1970-2005, the proportion of never-married women in their late 30s rose from 5.8% to 18.4%. In 2010, a third of Japanese women entering their 30s were single, with at least half of them not expected to marry at all, compared to 13-15% of women in Britain and the US in their late 30s who are single. [14] Drawing on data from the Asia Research Institute, Eberstadt points out that by 2040 about 24% of 50 year-old Japanese women will never have married and 38% of them will be childless. [15] Both the average marriage age of women and the numbers of women between 35-39 who never married rose steeply in Japan between 1980-2005. [16] There has been a steady erosion of marriage and its child-bearing role in post-industrial Japan .

read the rest of the article and it gets more depressing. is this it? are we actually seeing the death of a civilization?

[sanjaykumar]

To prognosticate 5 years into the future may possibly be prescient, to do so fifty years into the future is foolish.

[Rony]

Is China Unintentionally Rekindling Japan’s Great Power Ambitions?

But China’s increasingly assertive foreign policy is, perversely, the one faint glimmer of hope for the moribund Japanese economy. Military Keynesianism, in which Japan builds up its armed forces, emerges as an aggressive exporter of arms worldwide, and pumps up its economy by large R&D budgets for military technology, could give Japan’s economy and its corporate sector a huge boost, particularly if this new military technology spurs the development of civilian high-tech companies.
Some Japanese nationalists have been promoting this idea for years. As fear of China pushes more of the public toward the nationalists, China unwittingly may not only be promoting the emergence of a dangerous military competitor but also reviving a powerful economic competitor. Certainly if China were deliberately attempting to create the rearming, reinvigorated Japan of its worst nightmares, it couldn’t do a much better job than its current mix of bluster, threats and political pressure.

[SSridhar]

Manmohan Singh postpones visit to Japan

It is unfortunate as the momentum needs to be maintained. Hope they find another date quick enough.

“There have been fast-paced internal developments in Japan. Factoring these in, the Government of India has decided that we should look for new dates. So, the Prime Minister is not going from November 15 to 18,” Joint Secretary (East Asia) in the External Affairs Ministry Gautam Bambawale said at a news conference here.

Tokyo informed New Delhi about the decision of Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda to dissolve Parliament and announce elections. The dates for the polls could be announced on Friday, the day Dr. Singh would be in Tokyo. Hence, New Delhi though it appropriate to call off the visit now.

Informed sources said most political parties in Japan had agreed to fix December 16 as the date for voting. Normally, the prime minister assumes office after a week. That means the elected prime minister could explore the possibility of a prime ministerial summit after the India-Asean summit in Delhi and Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit on December 24.

The sources pointed out that last year too, there was a severe crunch of available dates on which the two Prime Ministers could meet. Finally, a date just before the New Year’s Day was found suitable and Mr. Noda agreed to travel to New Delhi to ensure that the two Prime Ministers met bilaterally and at length once every year.

“May be something like that could be worked out this time as well,” said the sources.

[devesh]

To prognosticate 5 years into the future may possibly be prescient, to do so fifty years into the future is foolish.

demographic trends are not easy to change direction. especially if those trends become established gradually over a period of decades and generations, it's even harder to radically realign them without some kind of an extraordinary paradigm change. Japan has a herculean task ahead.

[member_19686]

read the rest of the article and it gets more depressing. is this it? are we actually seeing the death of a civilization?

The whole "death of civilization" depends on the idea that this trend will continue indefinitely until there is only 1 Japanese person left.

Japan has seen a slight uptick in birth rate & it may continue.

It may be the case that population will decline for a while and then begin to grow again, say down to 90 million (which will take a while). 90 million doesn't mean death of Japan.

If Japan is going to die as a civilization it will be due to uncontrolled immigration (if they allow it) or domestic growth of the followers of ROP and ROL.

The Japanese don't want non Japanese immigrants & I don't have the data about the growth of the 2 sister ideologies.

The cultural environment appears to be rather old-fashioned as well. Only 2% of Japanese couples cohabit. Percentage of unmarried young men (left) in the 25-29 and 30-34 age groups has been rising since the 70′s, but flatlined in 2005. The growth in the percentage of unmarried young women (right) has slowed a lot, too. This is most visible in graphs of five-year percentage changes in the unmarried rate (on the right). There is a sizeable and growing fraction of shotgun marriages (top graph, broken down by age). Japan boasts an impressively low rate of out-of-wedlock births (on the right), and its 10% rate of single-parent households is the result of divorce and bereavement rather than illegitimacy.

Finally and most importantly, opinions of the Japanese people on marriage and divorce have turned around 2000 as well. According to the most recent opinion survey conducted by the Cabinet’s information arm in relation to plans for gender-equal society, the percentage of those who think that being unhappy with your spouse is grounds for divorce has declined from a peak of 54.2% in 1998 to 46.5% in 2008, although some ground was lost in 2010 (50.1%), no doubt because of the above-mentioned ‘plans’ (on an unrelated note, opposition to the death penalty has been steadily decreasing for decades despite leftist agitation). A 2010 international Cabinet survey shows that the twenty-something generation disapproves more strongly of out-of-wedlock births (56.2%) than the 30- (48.8%) and 40-somethings (51.2%). This phenomenon was observed in the other countries covered by the survey — Korea, USA, Sweden and France — although it was much less pronounced. Moreover, Japan’s disapproval percentage in 20- and 30-somethings was the highest of all five countries, somewhat higher even than in Korea. USA sits in the middle, and in France and Sweden the percentage does not differ appreciably from the percentage of immigrant population, about 10%.

Update: while answering a comment over at Spandrell’s, discovered another interesting survey of opinion on marriage, and it supports my turnaround hypothesis too:



To round up with a bit of data on immigration, the graph on the right presents results of a J-CAST internet poll of attitudes to immigration attached to an article on the same subject peddling mass immigration as a cure for falling working-age population. J-CAST is not noted for its reactionary views. It is if anything neoliberal (or neoconservative?); for instance, one of its associate experts has studied with Bernanke. I daresay they were disappointed by the poll results, but still more by the excellent comments to the article. The commenters made short work of the neoliberal arguments in favor of mass immigration (‘cheap labor will pay for our social security’ etc.), pointed out the problems (especially the decline of public order) that the Western countries who tried mass immigration have saddled themselves with, or rather that Western elites have saddled their populations with, doubted whether any immigrants worthy of letting in would even come now that the economy is faltering, and laid blame on the article’s author’s generation for the low numbers of the present 20-somethings. Many said “OK, let’s become poor, but at least we’ll stay Japan and we won’t have immigrants to deal with as well” — a very Japanese sentiment. May it never weaken.



http://candide3.wordpress.com/2012/08/0 ... -in-japan/

[devesh]

Surasena ji,

I am all for Japan finding some kind of a solution to their demographic problem. if they start a serious effort now, it will take at least 5-10 years to start showing some effect. demographic trends are very inelastic. some kind of a nationalistic appeal to patriotism is the only thing that can reverse it.

[member_19686]

Surasena ji,

I am all for Japan finding some kind of a solution to their demographic problem. if they start a serious effort now, it will take at least 5-10 years to start showing some effect. demographic trends are very inelastic. some kind of a nationalistic appeal to patriotism is the only thing that can reverse it.

It is true that replacement TFR is hard to achieve.

But upticks in birth rates can be achieved as it has happened in Russia.

More importantly this is generally a novel issue in the history of humanity though there were exceptions in the past as in late Rome when there was population decline. Would Roman pagan birth rates have come back up to replacement levels, we will never know because Christians took over Rome and destroyed it.

So we don't really know how things will go but I doubt it will be an indefinite decline till only 1 million people are left in Japan or something like that. Japan is a crowded place (much more so than India which is supposed to be "overpopulated") because a huge chunk of the population is squeezed into the Tokyo area and living space is limited. So it may take a period of decline before you see it go back up to replacement TFR.

This is the bigger danger to Japan, in the name of population decline hysteria some usual suspects would like to push mass immigration as the solution, that will be a true disaster for Japan especially if the immigrants happen to be Muslims or Christians.

More devout participation in ancestor worship along with patriotism and a more public role by the Emperor (the centrality of the Imperial house to Japanese nationalism cannot be over stressed, it has always been stressed by Japanese intellectuals as the force around which all Japanese should rally) should help recovery of the birth rates along with family friendly economic and social policies.

The family law of the Sugi's has great advantages over other family laws, namely it prescribes ancestor worship, without which any family will soon go to pieces, worship of the Gods, charity towards relatives, study of literature, to avoid being submerged in Buddhism and finally it prescribes agriculture.

- Yoshida Shōin in a letter to his sister Chiyo about their family law.

Celibacy, condemned by public opinion, - except in the case of Buddhist priests, - was equally condemned by the code. "One should not live alone after sixteen years of age," declares the legislator; "all mankind recognize marriage as the first law of nature." The childless man was obliged to adopt a son; and the 47th article of the Legacy ordained that the family estate of a person dying without male issue, and without having adopted a son, should be "forfeited without any regard to his relatives or connexions." This law, of course, was made in support of the ancestor-cult, the continuance of which it was deemed the paramount duty of each man to provide for; but the government regulations concerning adoption enabled everybody to fulfil the legal requirement, without difficulty...

Iyeyasu was himself a member of the Jodo sect of Buddhism, and a friend of Buddhism in general. But he was first of all a Shintoist; and the third article of his code commands devotion to the Kami as the first of duties: - "Keep your heart pure; and so long as your body shall exist, be diligent in paying honour and veneration to the Gods." That he placed the ancient cult above Buddhism should be evident from the text of the 52d article of the Legacy, in which he declares that no one should suffer himself to neglect the national faith because of a belief in any other form of religion. This text is of particular interest:

"My body, and the bodies of others, being born in the Empire of the Gods, to accept unreservedly the teachings of other countries, - such as Confucian, Buddhist, or Taoist doctrines, - and to apply one's whole and undivided attention to them, would be, in short, to desert one's own master, and transfer one's loyalty to another. Is not this to forget the origin of one's being?"

http://explorion.net/japan-attempt-inte ... ion?page=3

[Agnimitra]

This is the bigger danger to Japan, in the name of population decline hysteria some usual suspects would like to push mass immigration as the solution, that will be a true disaster for Japan especially if the immigrants happen to be Muslims or Christians.

More devout participation in ancestor worship along with patriotism should help recovery of the birth rates along with family friendly economic and social policies.

Ancestor or race worship seems to be mixing pretty well with Christianity in neighboring Korea. Christian EJ'ism is big in Korea (not only because Jesus himself had his second coming there a few decades ago in the person of Sun Myung Moon). Yet, Koreans remain very nationalistic, and most Korean guys would prefer a Korean wife to anyone else purely because of race preservation.

So EJ/Islamism is not shut out by nationalism, racism, etc. They can ride any horse.

[lakshmikanth]

^^^ Last I heard, the Koreans were ok with White In Laws. Indian in laws are a big time no-no total Chi-Chi and the unlucky one will be abandoned by the family for generations.

I wonder how they manage to keep international politics out of Christianity. Maybe they never had a conflict of interest with the west. It would be interesting to see the outcome of that.

[member_19686]

This is the bigger danger to Japan, in the name of population decline hysteria some usual suspects would like to push mass immigration as the solution, that will be a true disaster for Japan especially if the immigrants happen to be Muslims or Christians.

More devout participation in ancestor worship along with patriotism should help recovery of the birth rates along with family friendly economic and social policies.

Ancestor or race worship seems to be mixing pretty well with Christianity in neighboring Korea. Christian EJ'ism is big in Korea (not only because Jesus himself had his second coming there a few decades ago in the person of Sun Myung Moon). Yet, Koreans remain very nationalistic, and most Korean guys would prefer a Korean wife to anyone else purely because of race preservation.

So EJ/Islamism is not shut out by nationalism, racism, etc. They can ride any horse.

Most South Koreans are not Christians FYI.

About 30% are Christian, so I don't see how your point is relevant unless you can show me devout Korean Christians worshiping ancestors and performing the old rituals for them. The Christian Koreans are the one's pushing for evolution to be removed from school textbooks and attacking ancient Buddhist temples.

Besides my post was primarily about increasing the birth rate not about resistance to Christianity.

Why don't you read what Japanese who successfully led the resistance to Christianity wrote?

Miura Baien, Fabian Fukan, Aizawa Seishisai, Hayashi Razan, Tetsujo, Nariaki all wrote about the great danger posed by Christianity to Japan. Ieyasu discusses it in his "Legacy" and why he decided to crush it.

A sample:

However, Fukan does not simply replace his former Christian belief with
Buddhism. Instead, his religious standpoint is characterized by a pluralistic and a
particularistic attitude. His affirmation of religious plurality is obvious in the way he
contrasts the Christian idea of a creator god with Buddhist, Confucian and Shinto
explanations of how the world arose. Fukan quotes the Dao de Jing on the arising of
heaven and earth and all phenomena, mentions the Buddhist concept of joj¨ ek¨ 成
住壊空, i.e. the cyclical process of evolving and vanishing world-systems, and the
legendary primal deities of Shinto mythology. He concludes by asking, “Why is it
that only the Christians again and again talk about this topic as if only they knew
about the creation of heaven and earth?” (Ha Daiusu 1970: 426) Thus, Fukan does
not claim the superiority of Daoist, Buddhist or Shinto cosmogonies, but attacks
the claim of exclusiveness made by the Christians. Throughout the book, Fukan
displays this pluralistic standpoint. He contrasts Christian doctrines with respective
counter-models taken from Confucian philosophy – especially with regard to the
arising of the world out of the dao (道) and through yin and yang (in’yo 陰陽), or
Mahåyåna Buddhist thought, such as the idea of the dharmakåya. (Ha Daiusu 1970: 427, 429 f)

In addition, Fukan opposes the universalism of Christian truth claims by
advocating a particularistic attitude. He explains the co-existence of Buddhism,
Shinto and Confucianism by the particular situation of Japan as “the land of
the gods, and, because of the eastward expansion [of Buddhism], the land of the
Buddhas.” (Ha Daiusu 1970: 427) According to Fukan, it is due to the heavenly
mandate given by Amaterasu to the first emperor of Japan, and the propagation of
Buddhism by Prince Shotoku, a manifestation of a Buddha who acted in accordance
with Amaterasu’s will, that Japan is protected by both, kami and Buddhas. Thus, the
peaceful reign of the country depends on the prosperity of Buddhism and Shinto
and vice versa. (Ha Daiusu 19970: 441 f) “When Shinto and the Buddhist law exist,
the royal law will also flourish, and because there is the royal law, the authority of
kami and Buddhas rises [...].” (Ha Daiusu 1970: 441) By emphasizing the mutual
dependency of political stability and religious prosperity Fukan makes the welfare of
Japan his criterion of evaluating religion.

The combination of concern for the country and dismissal of universal and
exclusivist religious claims is most evident in Fukan’s comment on the Ten
Commandments. Here, he counteracts Valignano’s statement that the Ten
Commandments are profoundly reasonable and just; therefore they can and should
be accepted by all countries and people. (Nihon no katekizumo 1969: 135; Catechismus
Christianae Fidei, Libri secundi, A 3 f) Against this assertion Fukan argues that the
Ten Commandments cannot be accepted in Japan. Because of Shinto mythology,
Japan’s political order rests on the worship of kami and Buddhas, whereas its social
order depends on the Confucian virtues of filial piety and loyalty towards the
secular lord. To him, the first commandment “You shall revere God above all other
things” threatens the balance of political, social and religious order in two ways:
It forbids the worship of non-Christian deities, thus preparing the ground for an
implementation of foreign customs;35 and it authorizes resistance against secular
lords, if this is in accord with God’s will: “According to the first commandment one
must not follow the commands of one’s lord or father, if these are against the will
of Deus, nor even value one’s life; it includes the encouragement to conquer the
country and destroy the Buddhist and the imperial law.” (Ha Daiusu 1970: 441 f,
quotation 441) Again he argues on the premise that religion ought to serve the
country, and that Christianity is not compatible with a peaceful political order.
He also questions the exclusivity of the Ten Commandments by stating that
they are included in the five precepts for lay Buddhists (not to kill, not to steal, not
to commit adultery, not to lie and not to consume intoxicating liquids). Beside, they
do not exceed Confucian moral teachings:

There are numerous moralities, but none exceeds the five relationships. Lord and
vassal, father and child, husband and wife, older and younger brother, friend and friend, if they fulfill their mutual moral duties, what need could there be for anything
else? [...] The duties among lord and vassal are loyalty and benevolence, among
father and child filial piety and caring love, among husband and wife their respective
obligations, between older and younger brother brotherly love, and faithfulness
between friends. (Ha Daiusu 1970: 441)

The plurality of religions as advocated above is paralleled here by a plurality of
moral teachings. Although much of Fukan’s arguments against Christianity is based on the idea of
national welfare, reason still is the other criterion of evaluation. He does not refer
to dori or kotowari as extensively as in Myotei Mondo, but he applies logical reasoning
when he criticizes inherent contradictions in the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient
and merciful God. For example, he comments on the teaching that Jesus was sent
by God to atone for the sin of Eve and Adam.

They say that God appeared on earth 5000 years after heaven and earth were
opened. Was this atonement so late because the distance between heaven and earth is
extremely far and it took him some years to come such a long way? Or did he need so
long to prepare for the journey? Since there was no atonement for 5000 years all men
all over the world must have fallen into hell, an uncountable number of people. These
uncountable people must have dropped into hell like raindrops. Can you really call
him, who watched this without mercy for 5000 years, without making up his mind to
create a means to save these people, lord of mercy? (Ha Daiusu 1970: 438)
In a similar pattern the narrations of the Old Testament are used to question
the qualities attributed to God: Why did God create the angels so that some of
them would oppose him? (Ha Daiusu 1970: 433) Why did he create Adam and
Eve so they would sin against him? This god must be either cruel or ignorant, he
concludes. (Ha Daiusu 1970: 434 f)

35. In Ha Daiusu (1970: 441) he states: “The Christians wait until the time has come to turn
the whole of Japan Christian, to destroy the Buddhist law and the way of the gods.”

http://www.japanese-religions.jp/public ... hrimpf.pdf

[Agnimitra]

Surasena ji,

I have been reading the parts you have been posting with interest, and learning a lot. Its just that I'm not sure if there's a relation between mere anti-Christianism and national preservation or population surge. And 30+% EJ's in Korea is a huge deal.

Only if resistance to EJ'ism is coupled with a positive attraction to native traditions (which are inextricably mixed with Buddhism) can there be a national revival of all sorts. I think Japanese investments in Buddhism-related projects in Bihar, etc can be seen in that light, in terms of their own self-interest. Ultimately only India's resurgence concomitant with Dharmic revival will create a strong axis, and all other civilizations that orbit around that axis will begin to reverse their decline or confusion and begin to thrive.

[member_19686]

Surasena ji,

I have been reading the parts you have been posting with interest, and learning a lot. Its just that I'm not sure if there's a relation between mere anti-Christianism and national preservation or population surge. And 30+% EJ's in Korea is a huge deal.

Only if resistance to EJ'ism is coupled with a positive attraction to native traditions (which are inextricably mixed with Buddhism) can there be a national revival of all sorts. I think Japanese investments in Buddhism-related projects in Bihar, etc can be seen in that light, in terms of their own self-interest. Ultimately only India's resurgence concomitant with Dharmic revival will create a strong axis, and all other civilizations that orbit around that axis will begin to reverse their decline or confusion and begin to thrive.

The Korean war and pervasive American influence plays a role in why rapid advances were made in Korea. The devout Christian Koreans don't worship ancestors, forget about worshiping ancestors they want to take Korea back to the stone age hence their efforts at removing evolution from text books just like their American cousins.

Japan's history is different, I agree about strengthening of native traditions but generally those who led the resistance to Christianity placed Shinto worship of the Gods first, not Buddhism. In fact some saw Buddhism itself as a subversive force that paved the way for Christian gains in 16th century Japan.

For example:

"owning to the rise of Christianity, Buddhism has become an instrument of government, and when that happens we cannot escape the criticism that we are using wolves to hunt wolves"

- Tokushi Yoron by Arai Hakuseki, 1712

[member_19686]

This might also interest you:

As we also know well, Miura was not so outspoken as his contemporary loyalists, es-
pecially Takeuchi Shikibu (1712-62) and Yamagata Daini 177 (1725-67). This prudence
may be the main reason why he was not molested. Still, that he had the deepest veneration
for the imperial house and that his national feeling prompted him to prefer things Japanese
to the culture and ideas from China were obvious facts in his favor, too. Out of this attitude
stems his tendency to belittle the bakufu system which, however, he never dreamed of
trying to change or suppress. Moreover, the sense of loyalty toward the de facto ruler,
that is the shogun, prevented him from thinking about any system other than the one he
was living under. Veneration toward the imperial house and loyalty to the lord were not
conflicting loyalties in the case of most Tokugawa thinkers. The idea of an emperor himself
actively ruling over of the country is a development of recent political science in Japan.
Miura's views are briefly expressed in a passage of his Toyuso in which his travel to the
Ise Shrine is recorded. On his way back he passed through Kyoto and in front of the imperial
palace he stopped to sing the praises of the imperial and eternal family, whereas in China,
on the contrary, rulers come and go rather quickly. "In the other country [China] at the
sound of a drum, what was a dog or a sheep in the morning, is in the evening proclaimed
a lord." 178 This kind of thing is unthinkable in Japan. For Baien all the praises which must
be lavished upon Japan are due to this persisting and unifying role of the imperial house
and further reinforced by the sense of stability which does not permit revolutions
from below, or from any quarter, for that matter.

About China, Miura does not mince words. He extolls first of all Japan in comparison
with China, because Japan's geographical position, notwithstanding her smallness, pre-
sents the uncommon advantages of an island compact in itself. The sea, the best natural
defence, has offered an insuperable obstacle to invasion. And aside from other reasons there
is no cause for exalting China as the Central Kingdom of the world. Nippon,179 the name
itself, means originating from the sun. This is another reason why Japan must be praised
in preference to China. For Baien the antiquity of the term Nippon goes back to remote
ages, even beyond the time traditionally accepted in both China and Japan. But the name
and geographical position are nothing more than secondary factors. Japan excells China
because Japan's moral standards are higher generally and also because of Japan's unique
political tradition. Moral behaviour was good in China till the times of Confucius when
deterioration set in, and Miura gives examples of cruel punishments of culprits, adding
further, that the Chinese family cannot be of high quality due to the fact that women have
been imported from strange countries. No wonder then, that even Confucius thought of
visiting Japan. Miura is also angered at the cult of Chinese letters, although he himself did
not show much interest in the Japanese classics.

The main point, however, for judging the moral standards of a nation, is to see the politi-
cal stability of its institutions. The koshitsu or imperial house has no beginning nor end
(mushi mushu) stemming from Amaterasu through Jimmu Tenno 180 down to recent
times and for centuries to come. This is the constant reproach of Baien toward China, that
she had too many political changes with different rulers. This Japanese boast of an un-
broken Imperial Line is never explained in its historical details by Baien or anyone else
fond of the subject. Besides early changes in historically recorded eras, the southern and
northern courts war in medieval times together with the adoption system make it clear
that biological descent is variagated while the family name has been perpetuated intact...

Contrasting the Christian idea of a supreme God with Confucianism, Baien says: "The
Way of the Sages does indeed revere and venerate Heaven, but it is totally a doctrine of
human ethics Qsen-jinrin)."... "Moreover," continues Baien, "if from a foreign country there were
an attack coming with the images of Chou statesmen and of Confucius borne at the head of
their army, those devoted to Confucianism would raise their spears and defend their own
soil fighting against the foreign enemies. This is because the doctrine of the Sages require that one treat one's father as father and one's lord as lord, and, besides his lord and father
there is nothing else to be venerated."195

In passing we may mention here that similar feelings toward China were to be found also
among Confucian nationalists like Yamaga Soko and Yamazaki Ansai 196 (1618-82), not
to speak of the Kokugakusha,197 or National Scholars. Yamazaki has the closest expression
similar to the one above from Baien. Asked by a pupil what he would do in case the Chinese
army led by Confucius and Mencius were to invade Japan, Yamazaki answered that it was
the Confucian duty to take up arms in defense of one's country and make Confucius and
Mencius captives.198

The anti-transcendent and socially centered ethics of Miura are stressed forcefully again
in the last pages of the Samidaresho. After having praised the westerners because they know
many things about astronomy and geography, he reproaches them because they know
only about coarse matter and nothing about the creation of things. "That is why they
place the Lord of Heaven (Tenshu)199 in the position of the Creator.". . ."The error is in
seeing Heaven-and-earth from the standpoint of man, instead of seeing man from the stand-
point of Heaven-and-earth." And Miura continues stressing the point so dear to him that
never can the lord and the father be subordinated to the veneration of something else.
For Baien there is nothing beyond death. "We live only while our body is alive... .it is
foolish to seek for ineffectual happiness after death while impairing the present. . . ." His
concluding remarks are as follows: "Whatever the faults of the lord and of the father, the
Way of the Sages teaches us never to rebel against them. Thus there is no way of setting up
another object of veneration over one's lord and father."200

On the other hand, Miura's patriotism and political conservatism, his emphasis on
Japanese values make him again a typical representative of Japanese thinkers, who were
always ready to borrow from the ancient East and from the modern West. But this always in
function of a greater Japan regardless of adjustments of the political structure of the country.
In Baen's case there was not the slightest thought of a different political structure, with
the result that his political conservatism stands out all the more. Why Baien, and the great
majority ofJapanese thinkers, never applied to the political structure the rationalism and
critical mind they had showed in other fields of speculation, is difficult to say. We might
well apply here what Baien himself says about the difference between rikutsu and dori. 208
Both terms mean reason or logic, but the former refers to pure logical reasoning whereas
the latter includes feelings and subjective elements which are alien to rikutsu. When prob-
lems concerning Japanese values are discussed dori seems to be the normative mode of
thought.

Source: Miura Bajen, 1723-1789 AND HIS DIALECTIC & POLITICAL IDEAS
by GINO K. PIOVESANA, S.J.

Miura also briefly comments on Sanskrit poetry:

SANSKRIT POEMS. As may be seen from the Nankai-kikiden5'
by the priest Gijo6' of the T'ang dynasty, there exist poems by the Crown-
prince of Antarava7' and by the venerable Acvaghosa.8' It is said that
A9vaghosa also wrote a poem on the true way of the Buddha.9) These
are Indian poems. Also in the holy books of the Buddhists one finds the
gatha (religious stanza's), which are Chinese translations from the San-
skrit ; although their true form cannot be seen, these compositions also
belong to the class of poetry. In the bin-fudan, by the Sendai priest
Baikoku,'0? it is said: " In India and in the South Seas, the love of
poetry flourishes, more almost than even in China. Further, examples
of their composition do not differ from those of China. The great
scholar Bhartrhari, having seven times entered priesthood and returned to
the world, bemoaned himself in the following lines:

Through worldly desires 11) I returned to laymanhood
Leaving cupidity"i) behind me I again donned the priests' robe.
How is it that these two things
Play with me as if I were a child ?

I wonder in what book this is to be found. It appears that in Japan and
India originally the prosody established by Shinyaku2 2)was not borrowed,
since in India poems (already) existed, and similarly Japanese songs (waka)
do not owe anything to Chinese poetry. If such be not the case, were the
methods of Chinese poetry transmitted to India, or did the Chinese make
such errors (in translating Sanskrit poetry) ? These are matters to ask
specialists about. The rhymes of Sanskrit are only a i u e o, long and
short ; this can be verified in the Shittanjiki.

Source: Miura Baien on Indian and Dutch Poetry by R. H. van Gulik

[SSridhar]

India-Japan to give push to two pending issues

With domestic politics in Japan resulting in Prime Minister Manmohan Singh postponing his visit to Tokyo at the 11th hour, Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda made a conciliatory phone call on Thursday and agreed on forward movement on two pending issues.

These issues would otherwise have been decided during the summit meeting this weekend between the two leaders.

During the telephonic conversation, both professed faith in the India-Japan Strategic and Global Partnership and agreed that in view of the dissolution of the Japanese Lower House of Parliament to be announced on November 16, Dr. Singh’s visit could take place at a later date.

They welcomed the conclusion of the agreement on social security as well as a memorandum on cooperation (MoC) in the rare earths industry in India. They also reiterated their desire to maintain the schedule of annual summits.

The social security agreement (SSA) will immediately benefit about 30,000 citizens of both countries – about 22,000 Indians working in Japan and about 8,000 Japanese employed in India – whose social security contributions won’t be deducted in both countries.

While the SSA will benefit a few thousands, the MoC has strategic significance. The resolve to cooperate in rare earths was expressed during Dr. Singh’s visit to Tokyo in 2010 at the time when China, the world’s biggest repository of rare earths, decided to cut off their exports to Japan following a territorial dispute.

Since then, several rounds of discussions have been held between Toyota Tsusho and Indian Rare Earths Limited for a joint project to refine rare earth minerals in India and export them to Japan. Preliminary talks had indicated an export figure of about 5,000 tonnes of rare earths that will be used mainly in mobile phone and automobile sectors.

Japan has in the past imported all its rare earth requirements from China but has been scouting for alternatives after political turbulence hit its ties with Beijing. For instance, Sumitomo has tied with the Kazakh company Kazatomprom for mining in eastern Kazakhstan.

[SSridhar]

Japan to give fresh infra loan of USD 22.6 Billion
That is some amount.

Japan will give a fresh loan of about $22.6 billion for the second phase of Dedicated Freight Corridor and an infrastructure project in South India {Is it the Bengaluru-Chennai corridor ?}, Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda today told his Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh as they met here, making up for an opportunity lost a few days ago.

Singh, while welcoming the announcement of loan, emphasised to Noda that India's priority was investments by Japanese companies in infrastructure projects like Delhi Metro Rail, which was a "fine example" other cities want to emulate.