India and Japan: News and Discussion

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nam
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Nov 2018 00:27

Bart S wrote:
Nobody does that. They didn't go to China to 'build the Chinese tech industry', they did so because China delivered on the infrastructure, logistics and labour laws and they saw the opportunity to make money from it. We are building infrastructure at least, albeit much slower than the Chinese pace, but on labour reform it has been a big zero from all govts including current central and state ones so far. Don't expect large scale manufacturing to come here without that. India did have an advantage with electronics R&D and NPI type operations at least, but the Chinese have taken that over starting from low-end assembly and moved far ahead.


It is not always our fault. There are enough states with good infrastructure and relaxed labour laws. If labor and infra were that bad, companies like Samsung would not be setting up shop.

South Korean companies seem to be more forth coming. SK even let K9 manufacturing to L&T for pity order of 100. Compared to that we invited Japan for P75I, the declined participate. On the other hand they have been very eager to manufacture the same sub in Australia, along with tech transfer

Given that Japan wants us to counter balance China in Asia and our drawback being technology, I would expect a push from the Japanese government to encourage Japanese companies to move some of the production from China and building up of Indian production and R&D tech. Nothing of that sort is happening. As seen in the Bullet train deal, if the Japanese gov really wants, it can make things happen.

I have come to a understanding that Japanese see us a competitor in Asia over the long term and have learnt from Chinese experience. Since we are in good terms with the West and in 10 years will have similar GDP economy, Japan would not like to set up another competitor, specially in the "friendly camp".

China is the adversary for Japan & US. India is not, in the same camp and have many advantages, which might bring down Japan's value in the group.

We should form a more strategic relationship with SK, if Japan is not planning to have a forth coming attitude.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2018 09:05

nam wrote:We should form a more strategic relationship with SK, if Japan is not planning to have a forth coming attitude.


There's little to believe that SK will be any different in this matter. For instance, have a look at the tech transfer disagreements involving K9 Vajra.

No one is going to share their secrets and risk the recipient surpassing them in one way or the other. Japan, SoKo and Taiwan are in a unique position of having received generous tech inputs and then generously or rather naively doling it out to the Chinese (in case of Japan also to SoKo and Taiwan) who are now undercutting them in the very same domains.

The only way to get the tech is to develop our own and as unethical as it may appear, the Chinese way.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Nov 2018 13:25

Kashi wrote:
The only way to get the tech is to develop our own and as unethical as it may appear, the Chinese way.


We cannot realistically expect to design and build ourselves, specially for tech which we have no ecosystem of. We need someone to teach us to some level. Else there would be no need of universities and student can graduate themselves by studying at home.

Why do we need to steal? Look at Turkey. It has access to european tech and has been able to grow their ecosystem and build some good weapon system. Did they steal?

I am a great supporter of kis** Japan, SK & taiwan where ever they want, as long as they include us in their production supply & design chain.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2018 14:03

nam wrote:We cannot realistically expect to design and build ourselves, specially for tech which we have no ecosystem of. We need someone to teach us to some level. Else there would be no need of universities and student can graduate themselves by studying at home.

Why do we need to steal? Look at Turkey. It has access to european tech and has been able to grow their ecosystem and build some good weapon system. Did they steal?

I am a great supporter of kis** Japan, SK & taiwan where ever they want, as long as they include us in their production supply & design chain.


One may argue we have done similar with the auto industry, but still critical components (gear box transmission) are not fully indigenised.

Regarding Turkey, I do not really know how much high-end stuff they have actually designed as opposed to licensed manufacture.

The thing is our requirements are immense, we need cutting edge tech, but no one out there will share the meaty details with us, because then they will lose their cutting edge and they spend a long long time, money and efforts to get there. This is why they will be happy to set up license manufacturing and share the blue prints, tooling etc. But will always hold back the know-why. In the case of Japan, Korea and Taiwan it's a case of once-bitten-twice-shy based on their past experiences with China, or in case of Japan, thrice-bitten-so-very-shy. Why would they want to repeat, what they perceive as their past mistakes with us?

This is not about "kis*" anyone, but about realising that for cutting edge technologies, we'll have to develop it ourselves. Facilitate a set up that will nurture ideas and startups that will one day evolve into cutting edge technologies and applications. We can and should endeavour to participate in the supply chain and for that we need to provide incentives for those willing to invest. Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese or Europeans will all look for similar incentives that would prompt them to move their existing supply chains to India.

Other option is buy the technology and the know-why as it becomes available on the market- companies going into bankruptcy or disengaging from certain applications, for instance and therefore, IP and all the other details are put on sale. I believe Kalyani systems purchased the designs and all the tech for manufacturing 155mm guns from an Austrian company.

But even there, governments are also mindful of letting sensitive knowledge pass into foreign hands. Toshiba recently filed for bankruptcy and put out their units for sale, including the chip-making unit. Japanese government blocked a proposal from a Chinese company to acquire the unit.

Heck we have had Tatas owning JLR and Corus for a decade now. How much of high-end stuff from there has actually found its way into Tata Steel and/or Tata Motors?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2019 19:26

japan had no natural resources to plunder so perhaps thats why nobody showed a persistent interest in conquering it.

indonesia, malaya and india were the prize catches , and some strategic choke points like aden, suez, hormuz, trincomalee, singapore and hong kong

when the japanese realized their leg, they proactively went out and learned as much as they could to haul themselves up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration


The Japanese knew that they were behind the Western world when US Commodore Matthew C. Perry came to Japan in 1853 in large warships with armaments and technology that far outclassed those of Japan with the intent to conclude a treaty that would open up Japanese ports to trade.[1] Figures like Shimazu Nariakira concluded that "if we take the initiative, we can dominate; if we do not, we will be dominated", leading Japan to "throw open its doors to foreign technology." Observing Japan's response to the Western powers, Chinese general Li Hongzhang considered Japan to be China's "principal security threat" as early as 1863, five years before the Meiji Restoration.[2]

The leaders of the Meiji Restoration, as this revolution came to be known, acted in the name of restoring imperial rule to strengthen Japan against the threat represented by the colonial powers of the day, bringing to an end the era known as sakoku (the foreign relations policy, lasting about 250 years, prescribing the death penalty for foreigners entering or Japanese nationals leaving the country). The word "Meiji" means "enlightened rule" and the goal was to combine "modern advances" with traditional "eastern" values.[3] The main leaders of this were Itō Hirobumi, Matsukata Masayoshi, Kido Takayoshi, Itagaki Taisuke, Yamagata Aritomo, Mori Arinori, Ōkubo Toshimichi, and Yamaguchi Naoyoshi.
.....
. Despite the help Japan received from other powers, one of the key factors in Japan's industrializing success was its relative lack of resources, which made it unattractive to Western imperialism.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby dinesh_kimar » 27 Jun 2019 20:25

^ Another reason for Japan to be unattractive as a British colony - the Japanese were united under the Emperor, had an armament mfg capability ( incl. Steam powered battleships) and were united as a people. No foreigners for trade were allowed in as a rule, only engineers and technicians.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2019 23:48

its worth noting japan faced rice famine several times and this drove immigration first to hawaii and then california, which was not well received by the whites. they wanted to be the leading colonial power in the west pacific and use its resources , but ran into the western alliance.


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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Jun 2019 03:12

Japan like India has had an open source code religious life. In India one may contribute to the corpus ad lib and take away what one prefers.

I have begun to think that is a more civilised method than....ahem.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 28 Jun 2019 22:21

"The Last Samurai" is a very inaccurate characterization of what Japan was going through during the Meiji Restoration, but it looks over the broader picture. Japan was not united behind the emperor during that period. The whole reason it's called a 'restoration' is because political power was restored to the imperial office from the hands of the shogun. The emperor was just a ceremonial position during the Edo period (~1600-~1860). There was a full scale civil war - the Boshin War fought over this.

Within a decade of the war, there was another rebellion, this time between imperial forces pushing modernization, and disaffected samurai - the Satsuma Rebellion. The leader of the samurai during this rebellion, Saigo Takamori, is the person whose life is portrayed by the 'Katsumoto' character in the movie. The Tom Cruise character is of course complete fiction - it was the Germans who trained the imperial forces and not Americans.

The Meiji Era was a period when Japan carefully but successfully conducted the hair raising transition from isolated pre-industrial island backwater to the first industrial power in Asia. It learned the right lessons, understood what to imbibe (technology) and what to keep out (religion), and went about transforming their society within 3-5 decades, culminating in the Battle of Tsushima that cemented their world power status. The British built flagship of Admiral Togo (not the same guy as the WW2 baddie Tojo) - Mikasa - continues to be preserved as a public museum in Yokosuka. I've visited it.

The reason why the movie is mostly inaccurate is that it romanticizes the samurai and Katsumoto's character, while making the Omura character - the emperor's agent, as some sort of evil person. In reality. the real person behind Omura himself was a samurai, and understood that the samurai resistance could harm Japan's long term progress. It was a difficult decision they made, to deliberately gut their former society in order to modernize. There are lessons in it for how India should manage modernization.

The Japanese venerate Emperor Meiji. The Meiji Shrine is a major place of visit, located adjacent to the huge Yoyogi Park in central/southwest Tokyo. Every Dec 31 midnight, one can see how Japan mixes tradition and modernity - tons of people throng all major Shinto shrines - Meiji Shrine in particular - to offer hatsumoude. They show up in all kinds of garb and vehicles, from regular clothes on subway or foot, to high end suits and outfits in Lexuses, stand in line in the freezing cold of late night, ring the large gong and offer prayers. It was an interesting sight and experience for me to see. Should be fun to experience again this winter.

Both Meiji Shrine and Yasukuni Shrine (yes, that controversial one) are great places for Indians to visit in Tokyo - the latter has a special shrine dedicated to Justice Radhabinod Pal. Some older guy politely asked me "Indo ?" ("Are you Indian ?") when I was there reading the plaque of that memorial, and nodded in appreciation when I said yes. I found it remarkable that in a creative and cultured way they assert their own historical viewpoint in that manner, by deifying one particular judge who sat back amidst the kangaroo court of the post WW2 trials and said something different from the west.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Haresh » 17 Jul 2019 18:44

The man behind some of Japan's most stylish denim has one main rule: fabric first

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/ ... S77zI5KiUk

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Jul 2019 19:57

As an aside, the longest staple cotton is grown in India. The Japanese but most of it. I’m trying to get my hands on this cotton.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 28 Aug 2020 12:24

Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe announces retirement says BBC.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53943758


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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 28 Aug 2020 18:25

Would Suraj weigh in with his comments on Abe's resignation and what a possible successor could mean for India-Japan relations?

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 29 Aug 2020 23:54

Japanese politics are hard even for Japanese to parse... for a country of such modernity, they've have about 60 Prime Ministers since 1945. Yes you read that right - SIXTY. Abe is an anomaly - just 65 and already the longest serving Japanese PM ever. Normally they change PMs every 9-12 months. It was like that even in the Empire of Japan, starting from the famous Ito Hirobumi, the first PM during the Meiji Reformation. Their list of PMs is a whole lot of nobodies with some famous names in between.

Abe is pretty young, and Taro Aso is a commonly stated option for replacement. Somewhat a hardliner, and potentially prone to being unseated quickly in the game of thrones that is Japanese PMship, lacking the demonstrated wile of Abe. Aso though is a member of Japanese political nobility, He is the grandson of Shigeru Yoshida, who led Japan in the late 1940s through the early phase of its miracle growth. Yoshida's right hand man was minister of finance Ikeda Hayato, whose plans drove Japan's post-war economic miracle. Ikeda was famously mocked by Charles de Gaulle as 'that Japanese transistor salesman'. Japan would go on to vastly outdo France economically.

Given the current circumstances, I assume Japan will go back to its revolving door PM system, where everyone and their dog gets to be PM for a while. Aso is rather too old to be PM for very long, and the other contenders are too young and not well known. But we'll see.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Aug 2020 00:58

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/worl ... ister.html
NEWS ANALYSIS
Many Want to Be Japan’s New Leader. Do They Know What Awaits Them?
The coronavirus, a tanking economy, an aggressive China, a postponed Olympics, a U.S. election: That’s just the start. And any successor will confront those challenges without having the stature of Shinzo Abe.
By Motoko Rich, Aug. 29, 2020

TOKYO — The Japanese economy has taken a historic nosedive. The coronavirus could yet rage out of control and force a second postponement of the Olympics. Chinese military aggression is rising in the region just as America, Japan’s closest ally, is embroiled in a polarizing presidential election.
And those are just the immediate challenges for the politicians jockeying fiercely to replace Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who is leaving office a year early with no obvious successor. In the longer term, Japan’s next leader faces the unfinished business of Mr. Abe’s promises to advance women in politics and the workplace, and to improve working conditions so that men can help more at home.
The country is confronting labor shortages as it grapples with a shrinking population and a stubbornly low birthrate, as well as snags in bringing in foreign workers. With the highest proportion of elderly people in the world, Japan could soon struggle to meet pension obligations and provide health care to the aging public. Not to mention natural disasters turbocharged by climate change, Japan’s energy vulnerabilities from its post-Fukushima nuclear shutdown, the threat of missile attacks by North Korea, and a low ebb in relations with South Korea.
“It makes me wonder why anybody would want to be prime minister,” said Jeffrey Hornung, an analyst at the RAND Corporation.
But there is no shortage of aspirants. Mr. Abe’s conservative party, the Liberal Democratic Party, will announce on Tuesday whether it will call an extraordinary election limited to its members of Parliament and a few prefectural representatives, or a vote that would involve all the party’s one million members. (For the opposition to field a prospective leader, there would need to be a general election.)
Those who have already announced their desire to stand for prime minister include Fumio Kishida, a former foreign minister; Toshimitsu Motegi, the current foreign minister; Taro Kono, the defense minister; Shigeru Ishiba, a former defense minister who once ran against Mr. Abe for party leader; Seiko Noda, a member of the lower house of Parliament; and Tomomi Inada, another former defense minister.
The eventual successor to Mr. Abe, who cited ill health in announcing his resignation on Friday, will confront the many challenges without having the stature he had built over a record-setting run of nearly eight years. Fundamentally, Japan remains an orderly and prosperous nation. Still, its longer-term issues are so deeply entrenched that not even Mr. Abe’s long tenure was sufficient to remedy them. By his own reckoning, his biggest regrets were that he failed to revise Japan’s pacifist Constitution and so “normalize” its military, to secure the return of contested islands from Russia or to resolve the fates of Japanese citizens kidnapped by North Korea decades ago.
....
Gautam

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nandakumar » 30 Aug 2020 10:17

Suraj wrote:Japanese politics are hard even for Japanese to parse... for a country of such modernity, they've have about 60 Prime Ministers since 1945. Yes you read that right - SIXTY. Abe is an anomaly - just 65 and already the longest serving Japanese PM ever. Normally they change PMs every 9-12 months. It was like that even in the Empire of Japan, starting from the famous Ito Hirobumi, the first PM during the Meiji Reformation. Their list of PMs is a whole lot of nobodies with some famous names in between.

Abe is pretty young, and Taro Aso is a commonly stated option for replacement. Somewhat a hardliner, and potentially prone to being unseated quickly in the game of thrones that is Japanese PMship, lacking the demonstrated wile of Abe. Aso though is a member of Japanese political nobility, He is the grandson of Shigeru Yoshida, who led Japan in the late 1940s through the early phase of its miracle growth. Yoshida's right hand man was minister of finance Ikeda Hayato, whose plans drove Japan's post-war economic miracle. Ikeda was famously mocked by Charles de Gaulle as 'that Japanese transistor salesman'. Japan would go on to vastly outdo France economically.

Given the current circumstances, I assume Japan will go back to its revolving door PM system, where everyone and their dog gets to be PM for a while. Aso is rather too old to be PM for very long, and the other contenders are too young and not well known. But we'll see.

Thanks Suraj. That there were as many as 60 PMs in 75 years of Japan's post-war history is news to me. So let's see what happens.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 30 Aug 2020 19:27

At least in the medium term, let's hope that abe passes the Modi baton successfully to his political inheritor to ensure some continuity in the flourishing relationship.

even a partial reset would be another needless hurdle for India to surmount in these uncertain times.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 04 Sep 2020 22:15

Sounds like the next Japanese PM frontrunner is another insider:
Japan’s Ultimate Insider Faces Test Navigating U.S.-China Feud
A picture of U.S. President Donald Trump beams down from the wall of Yoshihide Suga’s office. The two men are standing side by side in the photo, a token of the long-time Japanese chief cabinet secretary’s global stature.

The reality is that Suga -- the man all but assured to succeed ailing Prime Minister Shinzo Abe as premier later this month -- has little experience in foreign policy. Abe will be a tough act to follow after he walked a delicate balance between Japan’s biggest trading partner, China, and its only military ally, the U.S.

While Suga has helped Abe craft domestic policies since 2012, his boss is one of the most seasoned leaders on the international stage. Abe has been on good terms with Trump, met Russian President Vladimir Putin more than two dozen times and stood side by side with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in support of multilateral institutions. He doggedly worked to rebuild ties with China that had hit their rockiest period in decades.

Suga will step into a juggling act with Beijing and Washington that has become ever more challenging. In recent months, the world’s two largest economies have clashed over everything from trade to data security. Meanwhile, voices in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party have increasingly called on Japan to take a firmer stand on the side of its security partner.

“In the past year or two, China-Japan relations have been on a positive trajectory,” said Jiang Lifeng, a senior research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences’ Institute of Japanese Studies. “Of course, with a new successor, there is an element of uncertainty. We will have to see what their attitude is toward the U.S.”

Japan has been hedging its bets. It’s working with Australia and India to build stronger supply chains to counter China’s dominance, according to people in Tokyo and New Delhi with knowledge of the matter. It also took a lead role in pushing for a Group of Seven statement denouncing Beijing’s clampdown on Hong Kong.

Abe kept diplomacy near the top of his agenda until the coronavirus hit, visiting 80 countries in his first seven years on the job. Little given to rhetoric or grand gestures, Suga’s role was to hold the fort in Tokyo.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Rsatchi » 14 Sep 2020 11:39

Suga picked as new party leader and next PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/yo ... d=msedgdhp
Picked as he will continue Abe's policies : Quad/Economic/India-Japan etc
A farmer's son : so will he be a 'Kindred Soul' given NaMo backgound!!!

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 15 Sep 2020 00:33

Yes, Suga is a good option from an Indian perspective. Probably better than Taro Aso. The main question is his longevity . He's 72, 5 years older than Abe, who's already Japan's longest serving PM by that age.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 15 Sep 2020 01:03

:?: Actuarial data indicates at least 10 more years of life expectancy for Japanese male at age 72.

Given his education and early agricultural life and education, as well as hierarchical position ( social dominance), his life expectancy is closer to twenty years.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 16 Sep 2020 00:22

I'm not referring to physical longevity. Of course I know from extended family that they have very long life spans.

All Japanese PMs with long tenure became PM in their early/mid 60s or even sooner - Abe, Junichiro Koizumi, Yasuhiro Nakasone, Eisaku Sato, Shigeru Yoshida, Hayato Ikeda...

Those who become PM in their 70s seem to face pressure "you're already 70+ and there are plenty of people wanting to retire with the distinction of having briefly been PM, so move aside". This pressure seems to get exaggerated after a period of continuous PMship by one person.

That is why I said Suga's political longevity is unclear.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby darshan » 16 Sep 2020 00:26

Already new PM being targeted in media by vested interests. Sounds like a good choice by that barometer.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 17 Oct 2020 09:29

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/ ... espionage/
Japan boosts checks on Chinese students amid fears of campus spying
by Tomohiro Osaki, Oct 15, 2020

Compared to the Trump administration’s sweeping revocation of visas for “high-risk” students and researchers with suspected ties to the Chinese military, Japan’s response to campus spying has largely been muted.
But even “spy heaven,” as the nation is often dubbed due to its lack of a comprehensive anti-espionage law, can no longer remain complacent.
Japan is gradually waking up to security threats posed by industrial spies masquerading as international students, launching a nascent fight against China’s perceived infiltration of top-notch scientific universities and theft of intellectual property.
“Most Chinese students and researchers coming our way are not some kind of spy recruited by the Chinese government,” said a faculty member at the Tokyo Institute of Technology, a national research institute often considered the most elite science university in Japan, who requested anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the matter. But, they added, “the possibility of some of them stealing cutting-edge technology cannot be entirely ruled out.”
As the U.S. administration ramps up its crackdown on Chinese students and researchers, security experts have expressed fears that high-risk individuals rejected by Washington may pivot toward Japan — home to many Nobel-winning scientists and physicists — as part of China’s systematic espionage program deploying “nontraditional” collectors of information, such as students. What’s worse, experts say, is that their penetration of Japan may be relatively easy. With a growing number of universities vying to secure enrollment each year to remain afloat, the nation has been so hell-bent on attracting international students that it has long turned a blind eye to the need to vet applicants stringently, facilitating easy access.
.....
Gautam

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Oct 2020 10:46

sanjaykumar wrote::?: Actuarial data indicates at least 10 more years of life expectancy for Japanese male at age 72.

Given his education and early agricultural life and education, as well as hierarchical position ( social dominance), his life expectancy is closer to twenty years.

If he comes from anywhere close to Okinawa, another 30 years is not out of the question :D

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 17 Oct 2020 11:27

sanjaykumar wrote::?: Actuarial data indicates at least 10 more years of life expectancy for Japanese male at age 72.

Given his education and early agricultural life and education, as well as hierarchical position ( social dominance), his life expectancy is closer to twenty years.


Actuarial life expectancy and an effectively functioning mental acuity are two very different ball games.

one is mostly about a relatively passive existence and the other is about more about hands on control and a situational awareness of the highest order.

It is the capability to translate the reading of that situational awareness to a rapidly evolving and changing international situation and finding best fit solutions without a misstep.


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