India and Japan: News and Discussion

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by srin »

^^^ The Japanese should be more shocked by the ineptness of the security detail. What I didn't see: the shooter being challenged as he came into proximity, agents using their body as a shield (atleast for the second shot), and lastly, the agents at least shooting back. They seemed completely blindsided even after Abe was shot.

I don't know if the security detail for ex-PMs is the same as that for current PMs ...
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

https://www.project-syndicate.org/bigpi ... nt-2022-07
Japan’s Fallen Giant
Jul 8, 2022
The assassination of Abe Shinzō has deprived Japan of its greatest postwar leader, and Asia of a visionary who was leading the construction of a viable framework for regional peace.

But no bullet can diminish Abe’s impact on his country and the world, as his recent call for greater US clarity on Taiwan, his other commentaries for Project Syndicate, and Minxin Pei’s and Bill Emmott’s discussions of his seminal influence on Asia show.
Please read the text and reflect.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32283
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

look at the possible geopolitical and geostrategic implications of the victory of Abe's party and the very real options it opens up for japan

If japan weaponizes and also nuclearizes its defence posture from self defence to an outward looking global aspect and accompanying attitude, it could very well jump start its stagnant economy, light a nationalist fire in the japanese body politik that has long been supressed, almost like what may now happen in germany where they are being heavily penalized, almost ruining their economy and sabotaging growth and social empowerment including prosperity of their people for the objectives and ambitions of players who have no connect either with germany or the german people.

If japan follows this path, germany will not be far behind and the vice versa is also a given certainty. Other large players will tend to follow, each hoping to carve out a specific region of interest with the inevitable run on critical and strategic resources.

This is a long term view with some international repercussions that may play out in the medium term.

With Abe gone, India may no longer find itself among the front rows of the starting grid, as far as the japanese options go.

If it all happens, the cheeni may face serious headwinds with a nuclear japan sitting literally at its throat and confronted with launch scenarios that leave no room for reaction times, and make retaliatory capabilities a very expensive though not unaffordable proposition. cheenis will now find themselves sandwiched between two nuclear capable adversaries

Shinzo Abe's political party wins supermajority in parliamentary elections.

They can now change Japan's US-imposed constitution for the first time since 1945.

This opens the door for Japan to become a military power capable of global leadership.
bala
BRFite
Posts: 1994
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by bala »

Bodhisena was born in Madurai around 704 AD. Bodhisena, called the "Baramon Sojo" (Brahmin Priest), founded Kegon Buddhism and also taught Sanskrit. The forty-seven characters of the Japanese script are said to have been devised after the pattern of the Sanskrit alphabet by the Japanese Buddhist Kobo Daishi (774-835 AD). The arrangement of the Japanese syllabary based on the Sanskrit system is also attributed to the influence of Bodhisena in Japan, which, according to Riri Nakayama, “will continue as long as the Japanese language continues to exist”.

https://www.thehindu.com/society/histor ... 112221.ece

g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-paci ... 022-09-08/
India and Japan plan more military drills to strengthen ties
Reuters, September 8, 2022

India and Japan will deepen cooperation on defence, with India inviting investment by Japanese companies and plans for joint military exercises involving their air forces, the two sides said on Thursday.
Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh held talks in Tokyo with his Japanese counterpart, Yasukazu Hamada, ahead of "two-plus-two" talks bringing in their foreign ministers.
"He invited Japanese industries to invest in India's defence corridors," India's defence ministry said in a statement, referring to Singh.
"The two ministers agreed that the early conduct of the inaugural fighter exercise will pave the way for much greater cooperation and interoperability between the air forces of the two countries."
India, like Japan, is bolstering its military to tackle what it sees as increased security threats. Both countries are increasingly wary of China's growing military might and assertiveness.
Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida has promised a "substantial" increase in defence spending. His ruling Liberal Democratic Party wants to double Japan's military budget to 2% of gross domestic product over the next five years amid worry that Russia's invasion of Ukraine could embolden China to act against the self-ruled island of Taiwan.
......
Gautam
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by kit »

bala wrote:Bodhisena was born in Madurai around 704 AD. Bodhisena, called the "Baramon Sojo" (Brahmin Priest), founded Kegon Buddhism

https://www.thehindu.com/society/histor ... 112221.ece
Maybe at some point as new discoveries come up, Bharat would be called the birthplace of civilisation!
g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/ ... e-funeral/
Japan to bid farewell to former PM Shinzo Abe with controversial state funeral
KANAKO TAKAHARA, STAFF WRITER, Sep 27, 2022

Amid tight security, about 4,300 attendees will be gathering Tuesday in Tokyo to pay their respects at a state funeral for former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who was assassinated in July while campaigning for an election.
U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and South Korean Prime Minister Han Duck-soo are among about 700 foreign dignitaries from 218 countries, regions and international organizations planning to attend.
The general public will be able to lay flowers at a nearby park, while rallies protesting the controversial state funeral are also planned in Tokyo and elsewhere.
The state funeral will be a three-hour ceremony held at the Nippon Budokan. About 20,000 police officers will be mobilized to ensure security in the capital.
Prime Minister Fumio Kishida and his predecessor, Yoshihide Suga, who served as chief Cabinet secretary under Abe for nearly eight years, will be offering eulogies.
......
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 937786.ece
PM Modi leaves for Japan for Shinzo Abe’s funeral
Suhasini Haidar, SEPTEMBER 26, 2022

PM Modi to meet Japanese PM Kishida; no other bilateral meeting scheduled even as about 20 heads of state to travel to Tokyo
Prime Minister Narendra Modi left for Tokyo on Monday evening to attend the state funeral of Japan’s former PM Shinzo Abe, who reshaped Japan’s foreign policy including setting out a bold vision for a quantum leap in its ties with India.
Abe was assassinated in July this year and is being given a state funeral at Tokyo’s massive Nippon Budokan indoor arena on Tuesday. India had announced a one-day national mourning on July 9 as a mark of respect for Abe.
Mr. Modi will also call on Mr. Abe’s widow Akie Abe before returning to India.
Mr. Modi will also attend a formal ceremony for dignitaries at the Akasaka Palace (State Guest House) and hold a “brief” bilateral meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida, his third such meeting this year.
.........
Gautam
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Such a long gap between death and funeral!
Is that the controversy or is there something else?
g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

Cyrano wrote:Such a long gap between death and funeral!
Is that the controversy or is there something else?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/27/asia/shi ... index.html
Japan holds controversial state funeral for assassinated leader Shinzo Abe
Jessie Yeung and Emiko Jozuka, CNN, September 27, 2022

....
Abe’s ashes were carried into the venue, where the government played a video tribute honoring his life and career. Prime Minister Fumio Kishida then delivered a memorial address, praising Abe’s “courage” and dedication.
.....
Gautam
Could this be a Shinto/Buddhist version of Hindu shraddh ceremony held after 12/14 days?
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4570
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by arshyam »

The controversy seems to be because state funerals in Japan have been held only for the members of the royal family thus far.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Ahh .. thanks for the clarif.
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Vips »

Japan to export to India stealth antennas equipped on new destroyer.

Japan is planning to export to India stealth antennas equipped on a new Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer, as the two countries strengthen security cooperation, government sources said Saturday.

If realized, it would be the first export case under a Japan-India agreement on defense equipment and technology transfer signed in 2015.

The envisioned export is intended to prompt India to reduce its reliance on Russia in procuring military equipment and boost defense ties between Japan and India amid China's military rise, the sources said.

An antenna system called Unicorn seen at the Maritime Self-Defense Force's base in Yokosuka, Kanagawa Prefecture, on Sept. 5, 2022. (Kyodo)
Japan is eager to increase its defense equipment and technology exports to prop up the domestic defense industry, although it sets strict conditions due to its war-renouncing Constitution.

For instance, the three overarching principles on the transfer of defense equipment say that the transfer should not be used for offense but purposes such as surveillance and minesweeping.

Japan plans to export to India a system called Unicorn, in which numerous antennas are housed in a horn-shaped structure. It is equipped on the MSDF's new destroyer FFM commissioned in 2022.

By covering the antennas in one structure, the Unicorn system can reduce the reflection of enemy radio waves. In previous Japanese destroyers, each antenna was exposed on the mast.

Japan and India agreed to cooperate on the transfer of the Unicorn system when their foreign and defense ministers met in Tokyo in September for the so-called two-plus-two meeting, the sources said.

While Japan is concerned about China's growing maritime assertiveness, India has a long-standing border dispute with the Asian power.

Japan and India are part of the Quad, a four-way security framework that also includes Australia and the United States, with China's growing assertiveness in the Indo-Pacific region being one of their most pressing issues.

At the two-plus-two meeting, Japan told India it supports the South Asian country's efforts to diversify sources of arms procurements, the sources said.

Following the meeting, Indian Defense Minister Rajnath Singh visited the MSDF's Yokosuka base in Kanagawa Prefecture. The minister is believed to have inspected the Unicorn system mounted on the new destroyer, Kumano, and was likely briefed on its capabilities.

Aside from India, Japan has signed similar defense equipment transfer agreements with 11 countries -- the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Australia, the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and Vietnam.

The agreements came as the government led by the late former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe relaxed the rules on the transfer of defense equipment and technology in 2014 in the first major overhaul of the country's long-held arms embargo.

Japan aims to boost arms exports, but only one contract for a finished product -- air defense radars -- has been concluded with the Philippines. The slow start for such exports is partly because of high prices.

Ahead of the planned revision of the National Security Strategy, the country's long-term security and diplomatic policy guidelines, at the end of this year, the ruling Liberal Democratic Party has proposed to ease the restrictions to allow more equipment to be exported.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

sanman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2304
Joined: 22 Mar 2023 11:02

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by sanman »



Any of that money coming our way?
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Why should we want any of that? Japan is also a US vassal. The real funny thing would be to by more S400s with Japanese money :rotfl:
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

So borrow and spend on Russian MIC, that would very stupid from an Indian point of view
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5414
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Cyrano wrote:Why should we want any of that? Japan is also a US vassal. The real funny thing would be to by more S400s with Japanese money :rotfl:
What's funny is discussions between paki anal-cysts on how they can get the aid from Japan... to buy chinese stuff :lol:
g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/kishida ... apan-ties/
Kishida’s Game-Changing Visit to India
Three reasons why the Japanese PM’s trip was historic.
NAGAO Satoru, April 21, 2023

In his visit to India last month, Japanese Prime Minister Kishida Fumio achieved a major step forward in bilateral relations. There are three factors in particular to note.
First, Kishida gave India its motivation back. He did this by announcing the “New Plan for a ‘Free and Open Indo-Pacific’” in India and underscoring its importance. The use of Indo-Pacific was originally intended to replace “Asia-Pacific” and include India. That is why Kishida’s predecessor Abe Shinzo, who first proposed the idea, presented the concept (or rather, the basis for it in the “Confluence of the Two Seas”) to India’s Parliament in 2007.
Since Russia invaded Ukraine, however, cooperation with India has suffered. India’s position on Russia is at odds with that of Japan (and those of the United States and Australia). Meanwhile, Abe, who captured the hearts of Indians with his Indo-Pacific advocacy, has been assassinated. Cooperation with Japan has consequently stalled on a lack of motivation.
It is to move beyond this that Kishida announced a concrete plan in India based on the Indo-Pacific. The fact that the announcement was made in India – where the Indo-Pacific concept was first introduced – plays to local pride and gives India reason to feel motivated again.
Second, it is important to note that Kishida’s plan was aimed at getting the Global South on the side of the Quad. With economic growth, the Global South has increasing clout and can no longer be ignored. It is at the forefront of China-U.S. competition, with China seeking to expand its influence through an enormously ambitious program of infrastructure construction with its Belt and Road Initiative, together with vaccine diplomacy. Meanwhile, since its invasion of Ukraine, Russia has been in a struggle with the West to win the support of the Global South.
......
Gautam
g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/kishida ... apan-ties/
Kishida’s India Trip: A Reiteration of Strong India-Japan Ties
India and Japan’s shared concerns about China are a key driver of their growing relationship.
Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan, March 22, 2023

Japanese Prime Minister Kishida Fumio was in India on a two-day visit from March 20. This was a surprise because it was technically Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s turn to visit Japan, and moreover Kishida will be returning to India in September for the G-20 Summit. It is possible that Kishida visited New Delhi because Japan wanted to assuage any Indian unhappiness about Japanese Foreign Minister Hayashi Yoshimasa not attending the G-20 Foreign Ministers meeting in India two weeks ago. India has been very active in promoting its G-20 leadership and Japan probably did not want to appear as if it was trying to underplay India’s role.
Kishida may also have been keen to visit India to set up his surprise trip to Ukraine, which followed immediately after.
While in New Delhi, Kishida invited Modi to attend the G-7 Summit in Hiroshima in May, which was accepted by the Indian prime minister. Japan is heading the G-7 this year.
India-Japan relations have been progressing rapidly over the last few years. Both countries are not only facing political and diplomatic pressures from China but also direct military pressure. India has a long, unsettled border with China that is subject to periodic tensions. In 2020, a Chinese incursion led to clashes that killed 20 Indian Army personnel and unknown number of Chinese soldiers. Subsequent to this, India and China have deployed vast number of troops to the border, where they continue to remain in a state of high readiness.
Japan similarly has been facing pressure from China in the East China Sea. There have been repeated Chinese air and naval intrusions into the areas around the Senkaku Islands (claimed by China as the Diaoyu), including last week. Over the last week, Japan moved hundreds of troops closer to the Senkaku Islands with anti-shipping and surface-to-air missiles.
Japan also feels pressured because Russia has been sending bombers on patrol near that area too. Thus, Japan has been seeking greater support from its regional partners, including by reaching out to South Korea, Australia, and India, in addition to the United States. Thus, both India and Japan feel some mutual empathy regarding the pressures they face from China.
.....
Gautam
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

g.sarkar wrote:https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/kishida ... apan-ties/
Kishida’s India Trip: A Reiteration of Strong India-Japan Ties
India and Japan’s shared concerns about China are a key driver of their growing relationship.
Gautam, here is the gist of what I wrote in a publication (URL not available) last year.
Japan is the progenitor of the QUAD. There is an almost 1500-year-old civilizational history for Japan to be wary of China and seek alliances for containing it Japan’s effort to conquer China and establish its own security from its massive neighbor started in the mid-Sixteenth century, took a strong turn with the absorption of the Ryukyu Kingdom in early Seventeenth century, proceeded with the defeat of China in late Nineteenth century and ended with Japan ruling China in the first half of the Twentieth century preceded by the capture of Manchuria. The defeat of the massive Chinese military in the Korean peninsula in c. 1895 eventually led to the demise of the 2500-year-old imperial dynastic rule of China and the eventual takeover of China by Imperial Japan during World War II. The ‘enduring enmity’ between these two nations is the longest in world’s history and has taken different forms in modern times. The India-Japan proximity, the various forms of closeness between the USA and Japan in terms of security treaty alliance, trade and economics and diplomacy, and the fast-growing partnership between India and the USA lead them naturally through the QUAD to an alliance against their common security threat, China.
g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4382
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

Sridharji, may I add:
After the defeat of Germany and Japan in the second world war, both countries lost their sovereignty partially, they came under the US military umbrella and was given a chance to rebuild their economies by generous help, by the West (mainly the US). This has continued till this day. However, as the US declines, it is unable or unwilling to provide military protection and a free market access for the products of Japan and Germany. These two countries have realized that they will soon have to fend for themself soon. Germany is some what isolated due to the fact that it is a part of the EU, which provides a market as well as protection in the shape of NATO. Japan on the other hand can not fall back on an institution such as the EU. The US still provides security, but for how long? Moreover, it is situated in Asia and is directly affected by the rise of China. So, Japan is forced to look for other friends in Asia.
Gautam
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Absolutely well analysed, Gautam.

US help has been generous to both Germany & Japan and both have been circumscribed from hosting an offensive military until recently, which is now changing rapidly.

It is also the US technological help that has very substantially led to China being where it is today.

Again, after Meiji Restoration and the US closeness in late 19th century, the Japanese economy grew for decades at the same rapid pace as China did after 1979 with similar support from the US.

Both Japan & China turned against their mentor within 30 or 35 years, though the reasons for doing so could be different.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12062
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Satirized in this film ---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse ... red_(film)
The minuscule European Duchy of Grand Fenwick is bankrupted when an American company comes up with a cheaper imitation of Fenwick's sole export, its fabled Pinot Grand Fenwick wine. Crafty Prime Minister Count Mountjoy (Peter Sellers) devises a plan: Grand Fenwick will declare war on the United States, then surrender, taking advantage of American largesse toward its defeated enemies to rebuild the defeated nation's economy. Duchess Gloriana (also Sellers) is hesitant but agrees to the plan. Mild-mannered game warden Tully Bascomb (also Sellers) is charged as Field Marshal to lead the Grand Fenwick troops, aided by Sergeant Will Buckley (William Hartnell).
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

:D
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

bala wrote:PS: I heard from reliable sources that the Chinese print the same number note 6 times and circulate them in the economy.
They will no doubt come up with some Fart of War quote to justify it and appear very clever.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

bala, Jay's valid questions remain unanswered.

Of course, all American Presidents, especially Clinton and even Obama in his first term, helped China.

Let me correct you on the IB reporting to India, if you mean that IB was 'subservient' to MI5. That was NOT the case. The relationship, by all accounts, was sought by our own IB and an MI5 liaison officer was posted here, may be without the explicit approval of our PM. Even bigwig BN Mullick had allowed this relationship. Even while agreeing that we have so many issues with the US and the UK, we have to be correct with facts.

In any case, this discussion is not germane to this thread.

PS: I have moved three posts to the 'Geopolitics/Geoeconomics' Thread. Please continue there.
Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9265
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

x-posting here.. (perhaps it should go in Japan's thred)..
Indian PM Modi's interview to Japanese newspapers Yomiuri.
Use of weapons of mass destruction is absolutely unacceptable, PM Modi
Image
Image

(My japanese is little rusty.. but google lens translation is not bad.)
[/quote]
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Cyrano wrote: . . . even if we are willing to forget that Japan briefly attacked India during WW2.
True, but then Japan was also helping the INA. This is a double-edged sword. Besides, such historical memories are sometimes to be set aside as otherwise we may not be left with many friends. There will always be some niggle or the other if we dig up history. Anyway, Japan is no longer an imperialist expansionist power, unlike China. We already have an extraordinarily deep, broad and close relationship with Japan in spite of the deep resentment within the Japanese administration after May 11, 1998 and the consequent actions it took. But, then, Japan soon realized the Indian position and mended its way and deepened the relationship. It has been on an upward curve ever since. We are the only non-NPT nation with which Japan has a civil nuclear deal, a sensitive issue in Japan.
I would think India is making some headway if we can get US to become a full signatory of UNCLOS, which they still havent ratified. That puts a ? on "freedom of navigation".
IMO, we shouldn't expect exemplary behaviour from every country because that isn't our job. We will use the non-signatory status of the US when our interests are impacted by the US behaviour, not otherwise. The US understands a strong response. That was why after USS John Paul Jones' incident we should have sent one of our DDGs to the EEZ around Guam and proclaimed a successful 'freedom of navigation' operation.
instead of taking some vague ideological position like the non-alignment of the past and sit out in isolation.
Yes. Or for that matter, 'strategic autonomy', 'Vasudhaiva Khutumbakam' etc. All these are to be used when they suits us as 'Realism' policies would dictate. Let's 'Hide our strengths and bide our time', for now. Even then, when our time comes, we would never be another US or China in terms of hegemonic ambitions.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32283
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

SSridhar wrote:
Cyrano wrote: . . . even if we are willing to forget that Japan briefly attacked India during WW2.
True, but then Japan was also helping the INA. This is a double-edged sword. Besides, such historical memories are sometimes to be set aside as otherwise we may not be left with many friends. There will always be some niggle or the other if we dig up history. Anyway, Japan is no longer an imperialist expansionist power, unlike China. We already have an extraordinarily deep, broad and close relationship with Japan in spite of the deep resentment within the Japanese administration after May 11, 1998 and the consequent actions it took. But, then, Japan soon realized the Indian position and mended its way and deepened the relationship. It has been on an upward curve ever since. We are the only non-NPT nation with which Japan has a civil nuclear deal, a sensitive issue in Japan.
I would think India is making some headway if we can get US to become a full signatory of UNCLOS, which they still havent ratified. That puts a ? on "freedom of navigation".
IMO, we shouldn't expect exemplary behaviour from every country because that isn't our job. We will use the non-signatory status of the US when our interests are impacted by the US behaviour, not otherwise. The US understands a strong response. That was why after USS John Paul Jones' incident we should have sent one of our DDGs to the EEZ around Guam and proclaimed a successful 'freedom of navigation' operation.
instead of taking some vague ideological position like the non-alignment of the past and sit out in isolation.
Yes. Or for that matter, 'strategic autonomy', 'Vasudhaiva Khutumbakam' etc. All these are to be used when they suits us as 'Realism' policies would dictate. Let's 'Hide our strengths and bide our time', for now. Even then, when our time comes, we would never be another US or China in terms of hegemonic ambitions.
The japs supporting the INA was not to help India but to take on the britshits. They coveted and also desperately needed the resources of India. Their motivations in supporting the INA were not in the least altruistic, but very self serving in the extreme.

Their intentions for India were very clear when they attacked India. Had they succeeded, they would have brutalized, and plundered India, like no one else who came before

The japs have mostly supported the pakis allegedly because of India's nuclear program and yet they have both hypocritically, and consistently, ignored the paki role in the nuclear proliferation business and the paki dealings and the shady games that the pakis played, and even today, continue to play with the cheenis and the nokos, besides the pakis own mercenary nuclear program

the japs are hard headed business men and their dealings with India should never be viewed through rose tinted lenses. They have never helped us out in the technology domain, and why should they.... They are in it for their benefit and we should look out for ourselves under any and all circumstances.

Enough of this vasudhaiva kutumbakam nonsense, we are fooling no one but ourselves. while the japs are bowing and inviting you to the tea ceremony, the background score is softly playing banzai, and tora, tora, tora.

The jewel in the crown caused a great deal of jealousness, and covetousness, not only among the japs but also among the europeans

japans desperate search for a stable and reliable source(s) of raw materiel, oil and other industrial commodities was among the major reasons for her belligerence. She thought that it was her right to acquire such resources and she attacked pearl harbor because the amrikis were slowly and deliberately starving japan of these very resources to prevent her rise as a great power rival

neverwho chose "non alignment" as a way for himself to stay in the international limelight.

Aligned with the west, he would have been buried in the shining lights of the US and the victorious bunch of allies, so he chose to be a third rate knight in shining armor among the non aligned (or "non align able") bunch of kooks, psycho cases and other geopolitical rejects that the west purposely kept at arms length.

It was his acceptance by the elites of the britshit establishment and high society due to his association with the mountbattens' and his staying put in the commonwealth that was the saving grace. It allowed him to keep a foot in each camp and yet he utterly failed to push India's interests and his sheer incompetence drove India from one manufactured crisis to the next

And the fact that he was a manchurian candidate, manipulated and shoehorned into position is not to be overlooked. He poisoned the well for India's majority and created the wedge for the BIF in cashmere.

India per se, benefitted very little from neverwho's personal connect with the western elites. The amrikis were fed up with him and his moralistic posturing, while his amorous dalliances were public knowledge

Why do you think that both ghandhy and neverwho, both prime candidates, missed out on the nobel...

Too much of the colonial muck, the wheeling and the dealings with HMG, the quid pro quos, would have become public knowledge, and that would likely have affected everyone in the local, as well as, in the geopolitical sense and changed the Indian narrative, post independence.

Seventy odd years later, the fertilizer is just about starting to hit the rotating apparatus fixed on the ceiling.. and many long suppressed HMG secrets, and dirty dealings with the congis, the djinnah muzl!m league, the commies etc are just now beginning to see the light of day

Just imagine, if this had happened in 1947, and where would the BIF foisted mamamia mafia have been today..
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5414
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Manish_P »

chetak wrote:...
The japs supporting the INA was not to help India but to take on the britshits. They coveted and also desperately needed the resources of India. Their motivations in supporting the INA were not in the least altruistic, but very self serving in the extreme.

Their intentions for India were very clear when they attacked India. Had they succeeded, they would have brutalized, and plundered India, like no one else who came before...
<OT> Their brutality is well documented.

Japanese ate Indian PoWs, used them as live targets in WWII

OT for this thread and hence will not post on this more here.. </OT>
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Cyrano »

What absolute horror ! I'm speechless. Never forget, never forgive.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32283
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by chetak »

Manish ji,

Always used to wonder why the cheenis loathed the japs so much and continue to do so even today

Now I Know.

During WWII, the japs butchered their way across south east asia killing 12 million people, mostly with shovels, and bayonets, and we all know what it took to stop them
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5414
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Manish_P »

chetak wrote:Manish ji,

Always used to wonder why the cheenis loathed the japs so much and continue to do so even today

Now I Know.
<OT>Ah sir, for that you need to go back hundreds of years. There you will also discover the role of the Koreans.
England, France and Germany would be like the western reflection of the oriental games of the thrones.
The Manchurian campaign, then the rape of Nanjing (during WW2), horrific as it was, would be one of the relatively recent overt events and therefore seared into the pysche of the chinese</OT>
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-Japan-China

Post by SSridhar »

chetak wrote:The japs supporting the INA was not to help India but to take on the britshits. They coveted and also desperately needed the resources of India. Their motivations in supporting the INA were not in the least altruistic, but very self serving in the extreme.
*Long Post*

Of course, they were self-centered, of course they would have brutalized us. It is all well-documented in history and is too well known. There is nothing new here.

It is interesting to see how China has handled Japan and learn some lessons. {I am no admirer of Chinese diplomacy but sometimes their patience and cunning are admirable}

Some of the following are excerpts & paraphrases from my paper on China-Japan Relationship, published two years back.

The defeat of the massive Chinese military in the Korean peninsula in c. 1895 eventually led to the demise of the 2500-year-old imperial dynastic rule of China and the eventual takeover of China by Imperial Japan during World War II. China is the only country that had faced maximum wrath and brutality by the occupying Japanese forces, not the Koreans, Malaysians, Filippino, & Singaporeans even though all had suffered. The ‘enduring civilizational enmity’ of two millennia between these two nations is the longest in the world’s history and has taken different forms in modern times.

By c. 1979, China had decided to revive its Middle Kingdom ambitions. It needed the US and Japan and for that purpose, it decided to set aside its traditional shrill accusations and even ideological differences against these two countries. There were (and still are) two contentious issues with Japan. One, the atrocities including massacre and therefore the apology & reparations; two, re-possessing the Ryukyu.

After the intervention by the US in c. 1972, the leaders of both Japan and China began to meet each other frequently. China temporarily gave up its demands of apology & war reparations from Japan. The two countries brought to an end the bitterness caused by the events of the Second World War through signing the ‘Peace and Friendship Treaty’ in c. 1978. A year later, the two countries also signed the ‘Japan-China Cultural Exchange Agreement’. The Chinese Premier Zhao Ziyang who visited Japan in c. 1982 hoped that their relationship would be based on the three cardinal principles of ‘Peace and Friendship, Equality and Mutual Benefit, and long-term stability in relationship’. In order to reset the relationship that had been hit by the events of the Tiananmen Square of 1989, the G-7 nations thought it fit to send only the Japanese Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu to China.

The Japanese Emperor Akihito who visited China in c. 1992 along with Empress Michiko said, “In the long history of relations between our two countries, there was an unfortunate period in which my country inflicted great sufferings on the people of China. I feel deep sorrow over this.” The Japanese forces had either killed or injured over 20 million Chinese during that period. Though the statement by the Emperor fell short of a formal apology, the Chinese did not take it amiss at that time as China needed all help from the economic giant, Japan. It is noteworthy that in 2000 years before, no Japanese Emperor had ever visited China. But, by late 1990s China began saying that the Emperor's regret was not enough.

Even though China did not rake up an apology or war reparations or Ryukyu for twenty years, China was silently making its displeasure known to the Japanese, but under the threshold. For example, no Chinese President returned Emperor Akihito’s courtesy for the next six years for a return visit to Tokyo. However, when Jiang Zemin decided to go in c. 1998, China insisted on Japan issuing a regret for its war atrocities in writing before the visit was undertaken. As Japan flatly refused, Jiang Zemin refused to sign the joint communique at the end of his visit to Japan.

By c. 1993, Japan became the largest trading partner of China. Between c. 1979-1990, China has received USD 32 Billion in Japan’s Overseas Development Assistance (ODA) to develop its infrastructure. In the 1990s, Japan invested over USD 10 Billion in China. The Chinese Premier Li Peng who visited Japan in c. 1997 urged that the relationship between the two countries must be based on the ‘Five Principles of Panchsheel’.

That was when China had decided that time had come for it to squeeze Japan.

In short, major events of historical wrongs cannot and should not be forgotten but there is a time, place and an appropriate response.

We can see that Yoon Sook-Yeol is following a similar approach of the Chinese of Deng Xiao Ping, setting aside the major irritant temporarily with Japan because of the precarious security situation of SoKo.

No country has altruistic intentions, not even Dharmic India (except perhaps on a few occasions). When we gift a fast attack patrol craft to Maldives, there is a self-interest component behind it. And, that is the only way IR can be conducted. Not by the undoubtedly lofty ideals of 'vasudhaiva khutumabakam' or 'sarve jana sukino bhavantu'.

One of the greatest heroes of Indian Independence, NSCB, met the Japanese Emperor and sought the help of the Japanese in driving away the British. That is realism. Nations work like this. We can be pretty sure that he was aware of the Japanese brutalities in Malaya and Singapore. High principles and morality do not work in international relations. Japan had become the refuge for many Chinese dissidents too even after the humiliating defeat at its hands in 1894-1895 in Korea. The Japanese cleverly intertwined their Imperial ambitions with such desires of others as driving away the British (and the French, Americans and the Germans who had a free rein in China) by calling for 'Asia for Asians', a slogan which has a sinister parallel to what China is calling for today. So, NSCB thought it fit to seek their help.

Of course, the MEA has a 'history division' where phenomenal work has been done and there is institutional memory. And yet, successive Indian governments have only deemed it fit to have very close and abiding relationship with Japan, however much one may fret and fume. Modi has taken that relationship several notches above. That's the hard fact.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Japan - China

Post by SSridhar »

chetak wrote:Always used to wonder why the cheenis loathed the japs so much and continue to do so even today
That hatred is mutual and goes 2000 years back in the longest running 'civilizational enmity'.

The Chinese believe that the Japanese are the descendants of a group of Hans who were sent East by the first Emperor of Unified China, who was also known as the Yellow Emperor and who has later been deified in China, Qin Shihuang Di in 220 BCE in search of a mountain known as ‘Penglai’, that accorded ‘Immortality’, and who later settled down in what is today’s Japan. Though Japan was a tribute-paying country to China early on, like Korea (known as Ghoryeo) and Vietnam (known as Annam), things changed during the Japanese Empress Suiko’s rule in the seventh century CE. Japan began to call itself as ‘The Land of the Rising Sun’ and China as ‘The Land of the Setting Sun’. They denoted themselves as Emperors and direct descendants of the Sun Goddess, thereby directly challenging the Chinese. These were clearly attempts to shun the Tributary status and equate themselves with China. Besides, such formulations also revolted against the three Chinese Imperial concepts of zhongguo, tianzi and tianxia and were therefore decried by the Chinese as sacrileges.

Later, the Japanese Emperor Yamato requested his Chinese counterpart the Tang Emperor (Tang Dynasty, 618-907 CE), who succeeded the Sui dynasty (589-618 CE), to address Japan as ‘Nihon’ meaning ‘Origin of the Sun’, rather than the usual Chinese practice of referring it as ‘the bent country’ or 'crooked country'. Like the Chinese who believe in an extraterrestrial Heavenly appointment to rule the world, the Japanese Emperors believe in their supposed extraterrestrial lineage from the Sun Goddess. During the 13th Century Mongolian Rule of China, the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368 CE), China sent naval flotilla twice to Japan to compel them to pay the tributes. On both occasions, Japan emerged victorious. Later, Japan refused to pay any tributes to the Ming Emperors (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644 CE) also. In c. 1369, the Japanese Prince, replying to the threat from the Ming Emperor that Japan should face the might of the Chinese Army if they failed to pay tributes, said, “My small country also has plans on how to defend itself”.

In the mid-Seventeenth Century, by a quirk of fate, the Ming Emperor sought the support of the Japanese Emperor to thwart the attacks by the Manchus (Qing Dynasty, 1644-1911 CE) from the far east as they began to overrun the Ming forces. Japan rejected the request. In c. 1894, the Qing Empire’s Beiyang Northern Fleet, which boasted of modern Krupp-naval gun fitted imported dreadnoughts from the UK and Germany, had tasted a massive defeat in the Yalu River Battle (Yellow Sea) which itself came a day after the Chinese army had been vanquished in the land war in Korea. The Yalu River defeat came about because of Chinese cowardice, corruption and the confusing orders from the Emperor. It is considered as one of the greatest victories of the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Though China held Japan as its vassal for some time, it could not retain the status for long as the rough seas, distance and Japan’s geography did not favour the Chinese the way they favoured Chinese dominance over Vietnam and Korea. The Japanese with their tiny nation had always felt insecure with an antagonistic and massive Imperial China next door. For their part, the Chinese had felt frustrated by their inability to rule over Japan. The fact that the Japanese had, by subterfuge, taken over the Ryukyu Kingdom from the Chinese for two centuries without the Chinese ever knowing about that, rankles the Chinese no ends.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Quad News and Discussion- June 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

chetak wrote:Manish ji,

Always used to wonder why the cheenis loathed the japs so much and continue to do so even today

Now I Know.

During WWII, the japs butchered their way across south east asia killing 12 million people, mostly with shovels, and bayonets, and we all know what it took to stop them
One look at the Nanjing episode tells the story of the horrific brutality displayed by the Imperial Japanese. It's nuckin futts!
If there is war on the Pacific between the West vs China, I doubt if Japan will survive it. The Chinese will probably go down but they will certainly sink Japan.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5481
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

Are there any theories or explanations for such extreme brutality shown extensively by Japanese troops ?
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 722
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Post by tandav »

Cyrano wrote:Are there any theories or explanations for such extreme brutality shown extensively by Japanese troops ?
Genocide as a way of warfare is ingrained in East Asia. Extreme brutality and total war (destruction of the civilian populations, agriculture, water sources etc) is part of East Asia's civilizational history. Such total war concepts are common in Islamic and Christian history.

Korea, Japan, China, Vietnam, Cambodia (more Sinic or Han ancestry dominant civilizations) have long witnessed and used total war in many occasions and have a history of reciprocal use of such concepts.

The challenge of Indic states / Sanatani Civilizations which have traditionally never used total war but have faced such use by opponents is not understanding such concepts and it common use by competing civilizations.
Post Reply