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India and Japan: News and Discussion

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 30 Mar 2016 16:44

rsingh wrote:I came to know some intersting information about Japan
-Japanese society is highly conservative
-They have class and even cast system. There is a cast that does jobs like cleaning blocked pipes and cleaning. They are not educated as most of the school does not accept kids from such cast.
-There are original Japanese who were there before hans. They beaten up to the Northern territories.
-it is a fractured society.
- Kids often dream of a office clerical job.
- Latin American Japanese are counted as 3rd class Japanese.



- Yes the Japanese society is conservative in thinking, they don't like to take big risks and give higher weightage to stability than high-risk-high-gain.

- There is the class system but thats on the corporate hierarchy /which college you studied class. Tokyo graduates are considered as "elite" and are given special treatment to a small extent in promotions. But the more traditional caste system is not visible nor are there any restrictions from social point of view.

- Skip

- Its not a fractured society, its one of the most homogeneous you can find, which is great if things are going great (for eg after the wwII when japan economy boomed because of the US assistance), but not so great as can been seen after 1989 collapse. I was surprised and had a minor culture shock. Its a 80-20 society, 80% everyone has the same behavior and responses, with 20% being individualistic customisation. India is 20-80 if you know what I mean.

- Most kids like to become a Kaishain in the top tier companies(but not all), just like their fathers. Japan companies provide a very stable lifetime job opportunities where once you get into the company, you can retire with a stable pension and lifestyle. This is changing in the millennials generation and they don't want to stick with one job/company for the rest their lives. This is causing problems for older management companies (not the Sony/Toyota/Mitsubishi's).

- Pure blood Japanese are "considered" "Japanese", the rest are not considered Japanese are in the "sato"(outsider) group. This outsider/insider is interesting concept though on a personal relationship level this does not affect much.

- Japanese don't prefer juggad, they like a stable process oriented relationships, jobs, interactions, what not. Most cannot handle surprises, thinking-on-thier feet etc.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby shyamal » 30 Mar 2016 22:41

having lived and worked in Japan 3+ years : +100 to Rhytha.
rsingh - the things that student/researcher told you are like half truths. There is a kernel of truth in all of them. But the way you/he present them is about 179 degrees away from present reality :)

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 30 Mar 2016 23:41

I find most western portrayals of Japan to have a tinge of bitterness or resentment underneath. Japanese have an enormous 'we are Japanese, we do this our way' not-invented-here mentality. Even a lot of Japanese privately hate that. There's also a clear distinction societally about Japanese vs non-Japanese. Even a blond, blue eyed Euro is clearly made aware they're an outsider and not ever capable of 'going native' and will be treated as such.

While in interpersonal relationships they're warm and welcoming, societally, the enforced homogeneity is very much the case. That leads to astonishment, especially amongst those accustomed to white privilege, at being viewed as just one of the 'better' outsiders, but still clearly outsider. Not all of this 'different' treatment is negative, though it can be interpreted as such. Japanese have a lot of defined decorum for interaction and doing things. Outsiders are not expected to know these, and "you're not Japanese, you don't know these" can sound dismissive. But it need not be.

To Japanese themselves, a lot of these rules are a small emotional burden of being Japanese. There's a small amount of jealousy on their part that outsiders can simply play the outsider card; I've been told I should not bother to follow all the aspects of decorum because it's all quite vexing and I should simply play the outsider card to avoid having to deal with every aspect of formal interaction. Of course, I got that advice in trusted confidentiality because I've family there.

I can see how the average westerner, used to being treated as special wherever they go, find a nice cold bucket of water splashed in their face in Japan, figuratively. Suddenly they're an 'outsider', and not a universally privileged one. They're not a society without warts by any stretch of imagination, but they're also phenomenally well organized in many ways, and a lot of criticisms sound either exaggerated or hypocritical to my ears.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 31 Mar 2016 02:02

They're not a society without warts by any stretch of imagination, but they're also phenomenally well organized in many ways, and a lot of criticisms sound either exaggerated or hypocritical to my ears.


or another way - I would rather have some of their problems than the ones we have in other countries

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 31 Mar 2016 09:30

Suraj wrote:I find most western portrayals of Japan to have a tinge of bitterness or resentment underneath. Japanese have an enormous 'we are Japanese, we do this our way' not-invented-here mentality. Even a lot of Japanese privately hate that. There's also a clear distinction societally about Japanese vs non-Japanese. Even a blond, blue eyed Euro is clearly made aware they're an outsider and not ever capable of 'going native' and will be treated as such.

While in interpersonal relationships they're warm and welcoming, societally, the enforced homogeneity is very much the case. That leads to astonishment, especially amongst those accustomed to white privilege, at being viewed as just one of the 'better' outsiders, but still clearly outsider. Not all of this 'different' treatment is negative, though it can be interpreted as such. Japanese have a lot of defined decorum for interaction and doing things. Outsiders are not expected to know these, and "you're not Japanese, you don't know these" can sound dismissive. But it need not be.

To Japanese themselves, a lot of these rules are a small emotional burden of being Japanese. There's a small amount of jealousy on their part that outsiders can simply play the outsider card; I've been told I should not bother to follow all the aspects of decorum because it's all quite vexing and I should simply play the outsider card to avoid having to deal with every aspect of formal interaction. Of course, I got that advice in trusted confidentiality because I've family there.

I can see how the average westerner, used to being treated as special wherever they go, find a nice cold bucket of water splashed in their face in Japan, figuratively. Suddenly they're an 'outsider', and not a universally privileged one. They're not a society without warts by any stretch of imagination, but they're also phenomenally well organized in many ways, and a lot of criticisms sound either exaggerated or hypocritical to my ears.


The whites are still get privilege there. Off course not at the level thats given in other SDRE/Sooth asian countries. I agree on the 'we are Japanese, we do this our way', theres a lot of that. This is because Japanese are process oriented, the process is as important as the end product. While we don't have any process as such so conform to anything thrown at us, the Japanese have have their process stratified and will like to follow them.But no need to be enamoured by it, there are many many rules and process that does not make sense even from Japanese perspective let alone Gaijin perspective.

The jealousy part is true too. While the Japanese are judged by how Japanesique they are, the outsiders are not, even if you have lived your whole life there. I found out very early(thanks to meeting with couple of Indian SDREs) that how much ever Japanesique you become you will be always a sato guy, so don't bother too much and just get along as much as possible to get the work done, don't try to imitate them.

or another way - I would rather have some of their problems than the ones we have in other countries


I would'nt go that far. They have lot of psychological problems, better to have our problems which are aspirational than their problem imho.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 31 Mar 2016 09:47

rhytha wrote:This is because Japanese are process oriented, the process is as important as the end product. While we don't have any process as such so conform to anything thrown at us, the Japanese have have their process stratified and will like to follow them.

How would you compare this with Germany? My understanding is that Germany too is much more into the methodical life style, process oriented and focuses on perfection. But don't know about their family & social life, where as I feel Japanese may be more "family oriented" (in the Indian context).

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 31 Mar 2016 10:43

Sachin wrote:
rhytha wrote:This is because Japanese are process oriented, the process is as important as the end product. While we don't have any process as such so conform to anything thrown at us, the Japanese have have their process stratified and will like to follow them.

How would you compare this with Germany? My understanding is that Germany too is much more into the methodical life style, process oriented and focuses on perfection. But don't know about their family & social life, where as I feel Japanese may be more "family oriented" (in the Indian context).


I don't know about germany, but on the Japanese, yes family does play a important role. There are some differences vis-vis the indian system though, Japanese have higher priority towards Job/Work than family, the family duties can be safely sacrificed in the name of Office work. Managers expect/demand you to put your office work above anything else, especially your individualistic and your family duties.

Typically a Japanese husband is expected to provide for the family financially and get the hell out.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 31 Mar 2016 11:17

A bit OT, but since we are talking about tinges of what is perceived as xenophobia by goras, I had some curious experiences with this "whites getting privilege" in India angle, that I have heard (and believed) since forever. I have a few white immigrant friends here, predominantly from UK, Australia and Netherlands. They are married to malayalees (either husband or wife) or run businesses here. Some run resorts at Kovalam/Varkala belts or have family here, while they work at Maldives during week. Some have IT firms or are airline pilots based here, but working for airlines in India and Gelf.

I consistently hear the following experiences from nearly all of them:

1) All private and government run service industry wallahs kiss their asses (hotels, restaurants, showrooms et al), because of the assumption that they have higher spending power. So if you are in a star-hotel or restaurant, be assured that they will get "white supremacist package" treatment. Same at airline counters. This stupidity is what gives us the impression of their privilege

2) local small businesses doesnt give a crap or treat a gora specially. They are usually run by people who are very uncomfortable with the angreji, that these folks speak. But they are usually civil. These gora-migrants say they sometimes have a disadvantage, when a malayalee comes along and gets service earlier, because of the language barrier

3) Both State and Central Govt departments (despite the general wisdom I heard and believed) are rated by these folks as quite hostile to them and at best, are intensely paranoid of a foreigner. They are treated rudely by cops, sometimes even when these guys are very very polite (which I had observed once and intervened, just wanted to feel like a gora-khan talking to a gora-sherif about how the "colored lad made a mistake. He wont repeat it. right boy?" :lol: ). They are made to jump through hoops, to get things done, which wont take any time for natives. Hence they depend on hefty-charging middlemen for nearly everything to do with Govt departments.

4) Local residents and neighbours are a mixed bag. The mid-level, college educated middle class drools over them for no reason, other than Fair 'n Lovely commercials brainwashing. The lesser and higher-level educated, kind of treats them with indifference.

BTW, this is from their own mouths, not mine. And yes, they are very very well networked and you can see the same faces in all social occasions across town and even different states. The east asians here, are treated at par and my japanese/SoKo acquaintances (from kids' school) here, dont have major issues, other than the mundane. They seem to be more accepted by the locals and I have seen one So Ko gent consistently playing madal-bat (coconut-leaf stem) cricket with the locals, along with his kid.

So in the case of Japanese society, I think the society doesn't give two hoots, except a grudging acknowledgement of those who dropped those two devices on their laps back in 1945. Same as our memory of East India Company ravages. They keep doing what they feel is right, like every confident, ancient societies with minimal social turmoil. And no one can do a damn about it, least of all goras.

Cheen, that way, rocked its own boat with Mao's stupidities. For a huge economy, they are cultural pygmies at this point in history. The frantic rush to make their military women wear short-skirts in parades etc is appalling

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 31 Mar 2016 12:53

hnair wrote:They are made to jump through hoops, to get things done, which wont take any time for natives.

Could it be that;
1. The goras know the system in & out there, and so know how to get the official work done? Things are much more process oriented.
2. The locals may also have their own pals in these departments to rely on in case some things needs to be speeded up, and goras may not have that privelege?
3. Where are service industry folks would bend over backwards due to the profit motive, the government officials know that they need not please any one overtly as it is not going to bring in any more benefit.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 31 Mar 2016 13:43

Sachin, that is a no to both #1 and #2. They are actually made to wait a lot, official India has a certain aversion to the gora, particularly in the provinces. Unless of course gora carries moolah, which evens it a bit for them.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby SaraLax » 01 Apr 2016 10:19

Sachin wrote:
rhytha wrote:This is because Japanese are process oriented, the process is as important as the end product. While we don't have any process as such so conform to anything thrown at us, the Japanese have have their process stratified and will like to follow them.

How would you compare this with Germany? My understanding is that Germany too is much more into the methodical life style, process oriented and focuses on perfection. But don't know about their family & social life, where as I feel Japanese may be more "family oriented" (in the Indian context).


- One of my observation is that the Women in JAPAN are possibly not seen as much in positions of responsibility & power (like in corporate organizations, scientific organizations, political & government fields) as one can see in Western Europe & US. Maybe Japanese women are relatively more tied up with running the Family than in widening their roles into corporate businesses, politics & areas wielding power ?.

- Japan definitely appears more nationalistic than present Germany. At same time Japan is more exposed to natural disasters than any other rich nation. Both countries suffer from population growth issues.

- The divorce rate in Japan appears lesser than many countries in the West.

- Also post-WW2 Japan doesn't seem to have allowed itself to be engulfed with 'ignominy' or 'assumed shame' associated with their WW-II antics/cruelty/violence when compared to the extent the post-WW2 Germany had allowed itself to be negatively described globally by their NAZISM & HITLER flavored history. Germany is seen to be very aggressive in its efforts to prevent any newer developments of organizations spouting nazism & similar attitudes - so much so that they have dedicated chapters in their schools on understanding why Nazism happened and what must be done to prevent it from re-happening in the present & future. I am not sure if Japan has something like this where it asks its current generation to prevent the past from happening and does it in an aggressive manner. Maybe the Japanese King is respected as a god by the Japanese and hence Japan wouldnt condemn its WW-2 related past.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Apr 2016 13:23

Japan to lend Rs.14,000 crore for Indian projects - The Hindu
The Government of Japan has committed a loan of JPY 242.2 billion (around Rs.14,251 crore) for various projects across India , including Jharkhand, Odisha, Madhya Pradesh and the North East. The Official Development Assistance is to be deployed for a transmission system strengthening project in Madhya Pradesh, an integrated sanitation improvement project in Odisha, a dedicated freight corridor project, a road network connectivity improvement project in the North East, and a micro drip irrigation project in Jharkhand, according to a government release on Thursday.

“The Government of Japan has committed a total of JPY 390 billion in the current financial year which is the highest amount committed in a year.” India and Japan have had mutually beneficial economic development cooperation since 1958. In the last few years, economic cooperation between India and Japan has strengthened and grown into a strategic partnership.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 01 Apr 2016 14:21

SaraLax wrote:
- One of my observation is that the Women in JAPAN are possibly not seen as much in positions of responsibility & power (like in corporate organizations, scientific organizations, political & government fields) as one can see in Western Europe & US. Maybe Japanese women are relatively more tied up with running the Family than in widening their roles into corporate businesses, politics & areas wielding power ?.

- Japan definitely appears more nationalistic than present Germany. At same time Japan is more exposed to natural disasters than any other rich nation. Both countries suffer from population growth issues.

- The divorce rate in Japan appears lesser than many countries in the West.

- Also post-WW2 Japan doesn't seem to have allowed itself to be engulfed with 'ignominy' or 'assumed shame' associated with their WW-II antics/cruelty/violence when compared to the extent the post-WW2 Germany had allowed itself to be negatively described globally by their NAZISM & HITLER flavored history. Germany is seen to be very aggressive in its efforts to prevent any newer developments of organizations spouting nazism & similar attitudes - so much so that they have dedicated chapters in their schools on understanding why Nazism happened and what must be done to prevent it from re-happening in the present & future. I am not sure if Japan has something like this where it asks its current generation to prevent the past from happening and does it in an aggressive manner. Maybe the Japanese King is respected as a god by the Japanese and hence Japan wouldnt condemn its WW-2 related past.


- Women in japan has a low glass ceiling, there are few and far in-between women who have reached corporate stratosphere. There are two kinds of women, "career women" and the "office ladies". "career women" are the ones who give high priority to their career and will remain single for most part of their life's, they put their career before their personal life. The office ladies types are the secretaries and admins who will not move up the ladder, they will get married, go for pregnancy leaves etc. Only career women can move into managerial positions based on their performance.

- Japanese are very nationalistic, and rightly so, they have never been invaded nor conquered by anyone in their history, but this is because their geographic advantage being an island nation coupled with there is nothing there as natural resources. I was little bit ashamed over my own jingoism after seeing theirs. I heard someone say that most of the last 100 years history is skipped in Japanese history text books, the history starts from prehistoric till meji era and then restarts after wwII (take this with pinch of salt). But in general Japanese dont speak much about wwII, and even if they talk they dont have much guilt. One of my opinion is because Japane invaded china and other countries for their natural resources than superiority though the the Japanese Army did use the superiority to whip up more jingoism and get their support for the war.

So its like this, though Japanese have this "we are Japanese, we do this way", they don't necessarily think themselves superior to others, but do think they are very unique and would like everyone to understand it as major point when interacting with Japanese. As in case of germany, there was no Aryan superrace crap, we are superior etc + the holocaust. The Japanese army was jingoistic enough and arm twisted the government over a period of time to get into the overtly nationalistic. So my opinion is though many would have opposed the war privately, publicly they would not denounce much since that would make them stand out, which is not Japanese culture. "privately i oppose, publicly i have to conform".

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 01 Apr 2016 16:38

rhytha wrote:- Japanese are very nationalistic, and rightly so, they have never been invaded nor conquered by anyone in their history, but this is because their geographic advantage being an island nation coupled with there is nothing there as natural resources. I was little bit ashamed over my own jingoism after seeing theirs. I heard someone say that most of the last 100 years history is skipped in Japanese history text books, the history starts from prehistoric till meji era and then restarts after wwII (take this with pinch of salt). But in general Japanese dont speak much about wwII, and even if they talk they dont have much guilt. One of my opinion is because Japane invaded china and other countries for their natural resources than superiority though the the Japanese Army did use the superiority to whip up more jingoism and get their support for the war.

So its like this, though Japanese have this "we are Japanese, we do this way", they don't necessarily think themselves superior to others, but do think they are very unique and would like everyone to understand it as major point when interacting with Japanese. As in case of germany, there was no Aryan superrace crap, we are superior etc + the holocaust. The Japanese army was jingoistic enough and arm twisted the government over a period of time to get into the overtly nationalistic. So my opinion is though many would have opposed the war privately, publicly they would not denounce much since that would make them stand out, which is not Japanese culture. "privately i oppose, publicly i have to conform".

Being an island nation helped but having an alert elite helped more.

It is not true that there were no aims at conquest, just check the plots of missionaries and Spanish officials (Vivero Velasco) of spreading Xtianity first and then using the native Xtians to make it a colony. Converted Japan would then be used as launchpad and cannon fodder to conquer Korea for Spain. Fear of conquest and destructive effects of Xtianity were 2 major reasons why the Japanese wiped out the Xtians and adopted a closed country (Dutch & Chinese excepted though under tight regulations) policy for 200 years.

From late 1700's onward Japanese intellectuals were probably better informed of European affairs, science, and maths than any other non Western people though they had much more limited access. The most influential nationalist text in the years leading up to the Meiji restoration was Aizawa Seishisai's Shinron (1825) which deals with Xtianity as the greatest threat to Japan and how Japanese should respond. It even observes that Islam was also dangerous but not immediately so because Muslims lacked the naval capacity to invade Japan. Aizawa saw both religions as nothing but excuses for plundering and colonization.

Here is Aizawa on Islam (keep in mind in 1825, the Japanese had never encountered Muslims in their history):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5680&start=3760#p1671830

A sample of his views on Xtianity:

Image

There is a reason Japan did in 35 years (industrialization) what took many countries centuries. It required intense effort, a very alert elite, and a strong gov't with emphasis on the Emperor and Shinto.

The Japanese had already been translating and understanding European scientific texts on their own from mid 1700's, often with no assistance from any Westerner and with their own intense effort. Certain astute European observers had already noted this difference between the Japanese and other Asian countries decades before the Meiji restoration and one Vasily Golovnin the Russian even predicted that if Japan ever opened itself and opted to modernize, it would destroy European colonial empires in Asia and even pose a threat to the west coast of US. He said this in 1818, 35 years before Perry forced open Japan and 50 years before the Meiji restoration.

Here is a small part of Golovnin's observations on Japanese capabilities:

Image

Here is Sir Stamford Raffles (founder of Singapore) in 1816:

Image

It is also not true that there is no war guilt, there has been massive US engineered propaganda after the war to inculcate guilt and brainwash the population. This is the reason you see protests when Abe proposes making Japan a normal country. On top of this, secularism was imposed on the Japanese by MacArthur, it was to pave way for their eventual Christianization (check the extensive efforts of MacArthur to Xtianize Japan after the war). To this day, Japan remains an unfinished business because it repulsed three great efforts to Xtianize it (first in 1500's to 1600's), second in the Meiji era, and again in the immediate aftermath of WW2.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 01 Apr 2016 16:56

Concerning post war brainwashing, here is something from "Breaking the Seal on the GHQ Burned Books" by Nishio Kanji

Image

From a critique of the current US imposed constitution (which Abe is proposing to revise this year to reflect Japanese values and history) and irrelevance of secularism to Japan:
CEREMONY AS A PILLAR OF GOVERNMENT

The ancient Japanese term for politics, matsurigoto—literally, "ceremonial matters"—reflects the fundamental nature of the Japanese monarchy, in which ceremony is one of the pillars of government. At the same time, these rites and their function are an integral part of Japanese culture. For example, on the first day of the first month of the traditional lunar calendar, at the "hour of the tiger" (3:00–5:00 am), the emperor performs the rite known as Shihôhai, in which he pays homage to the four directions of the cosmos, wards off natural disasters, and prays for abundant crops. In the Niinamesai (Festival for the New Tasting), performed on the twenty-third day of the eleventh month, the emperor makes an offering of newly harvested rice to the deities of heaven and earth and eats it together with them. These imperial rites support the overarching aim of sôsei annei (welfare of the people), the fundamental principle of government, while at the same time mirroring the New Year’s and harvest festivals observed by the general population. In this way, the ancient Japanese monarchy is at once a political, religious-ceremonial, and cultural institution. The word symbol as used in the Constitution connotes the manifold nature of the imperial institution in Japan and in doing so aptly expresses the basic "constitution" (kunigara) of the Japanese nation.

As indicated above, however, that aptness is purely accidental. It would require numerous changes to turn the Constitution as a whole into something that embodies the character of Japan. To begin with, Article 1 itself contains wording that is utterly incompatible with the concept of the emperor as symbol—namely, the clause "deriving his position from the will of the people with whom resides sovereign power."

The phrase "will of the people" (kokumin no sôi) is not in itself ill chosen. According to Edward Coke (1552– 1634), who discussed the concept in the context of Britain’s common law tradition, the "will of the people" in the true sense must be the cumulative wisdom of the people through the ages. The emperor as described above is in fact the embodiment of the will of the people when understood in this sense. However, as the history of political thought clearly shows, the ideology of nationalism emerged in the second half of the eighteenth century as a result of the rejection of concepts like "history" and "tradition." And underlying this ideology was the premise that the relationship between a monarch and a people was by nature an adversarial one. Such thinking is totally incompatible with the nature of Japan’s imperial institution. To make Article 1 an appropriate designation of the emperor and his role, one must begin by deleting the words "with whom resides sovereign power."

Another passage that conflicts fundamentally with the true nature of the "emperor as symbol" is Article 20, paragraph 3: "The State and its organs shall refrain from religious education or any other religious activity." Under this stipulation, an imperial rite like the aforementioned Shihôhai cannot be treated as a public function in which the state or any of its organs are involved, because it is a religious activity. But if these rites are nothing but private functions, how can they symbolize the unity of the Japanese people? And how can the emperor act as a symbol of the unity of the Japanese people without performing such rites as public functions? Put simply, Article 20 of the Constitution makes Article 1 impossible. A charter that embraces such a glaring contradiction in regard to such a fundamental principle can scarcely be called a constitution.

http://www.japanecho.com/sum/2007/340515.html

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 01 Apr 2016 17:46

And Aizawa wasn't unique. Here is Miura Baien in 1784 (84 years before the Meiji restoration and nearly 70 years before Perry) on the threats facing Japan

Image

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rsingh » 01 Apr 2016 18:54

Wow it is quite refreshing to have such fair and informed comments about Japanese culture. Actually. I made some comments that started this debate. One thing i missed is that Japanese society is highly one. disciplined rate is low and thefts are rare. People are hardworking and dangerously honest. So is it possible that this " discipline factor" is hiding some of the fault-lines which i was talking about?

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 02 Apr 2016 08:06

Here are some excerpts on MacArthur's extensive efforts to Christianize Japan.
THE ARM OF ST. FRANCIS XAVIER
Once again it is raised on high in fight against Japanese paganism
LIFE 27 Jun 1949

Image

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Uk4EAA ... &q&f=false


Image

https://books.google.ca/books?id=JtLYlu ... &q&f=false

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https://books.google.ca/books?id=v9IUAA ... &q&f=false

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Check "Soldier of God: MacArthur's Attempt to Christianize Japan" by RA Moore if you want more information.

When an American Buddhist woman by the name of Ruth Sasaki applied to come to Japan on the same visa or whatever that Xtian missionaries were flooding in, she was rejected (if my memory of RA Moore's book is correct) by the occupation authorities because the real agenda of secularism and religious freedom that were foisted onto post war Japan was nothing but Japan's Christianization.

BTW MacArthur had Truman's approval for this project and used Navy ships to ship Bibles. He put out a call for 10 million Bibles to flood into Japan.

Americans would later repeat this with success in South Korea and try it again in South Vietnam where fortunately they would fail.

As the conservative star Ann Coulter explained a few years back:
COLMES: I see. Now they should all be Christians? OK. No further questions.

COULTER: And this is, by the way, well, OK — this is, by the way, what America has done after World War II, after the Korean War. MacArthur put out a call for Christian missionaries to come, and missionaries poured into Japan. They poured into Korea. It didn't work as well, the conversion in Japan, but it certainly did in Korea. And I know that we haven't had any trouble from them for a while.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/10/05 ... beral.html

The effects can be seen today in things like this (from an Asahi report when Abe visited Ise Jingu shrine for the Sengu ritual that happens once every 20 years):
Muneo Bannai, 79, who heads a committee within the National Christian Council in Japan that studies issues related to Yasukuni Shrine, said: "It is an act that violates the principle of separation of religion and politics that is defined in the Constitution. We are taking this matter very seriously."

https://vajrin.wordpress.com/2013/12/03/148/

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 02 Apr 2016 08:28

By and large all this missionary crap failed in Japan.
Last edited by SSridhar on 02 Apr 2016 08:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted unwanted references to India

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 02 Apr 2016 14:54

Being an island nation helped but having an alert elite helped more.


Yes the Japanese elite form a hard layer with which major decisions needs to pass. The good thing is that the Japanese elite has stood for Japanese culture and wisdom so far, but that was on a era where communication and other cultural impacts takes lot of time. Many of the existing external influence so far on the Japanese society have taken time to be wetted, localized and trickled down into the Japanese society over time by the elites.

But once that layer is breached its smooth kill, there will not be much resistance from the society. I think thats their fault-line, as can be seen in the WWII. And their elite are homogeneous as their society is, once the fault line is breached, it can be replicated successfully across. In Indian context there are multiple elites and multiple caste faultlines, so each and every layer needs to be breached and there is not uniform strategy that can be used.

But my assumption is along with the elites, the geography also has a big say on this. Technically Japan has never been invaded properly(pre-1800s), except for the botched up attempt by Kublai Khan where in he was defeated by the storms. While India has a century of continuous invasions from the western front for the last 1000 years there is no parallel on this for Japan.

Also this may have worked in the past, the elites protecting the culture and ethos, but with rapid communication and globalized world, the elites would not be able to hold on to their power as they previously had.

But saying that, the elite are a self-serving society as well.


Check this out.

The February 26 Incident of 1936 was an attempted coup d’état led by a group of junior army officers angry over the hardships endured by the common people, particularly in the northeastern Tôhoku district, and determined to bring about direct rule by the emperor through a "Shôwa restoration." When the incident broke out, Emperor Shôwa unequivocally branded it a rebellion and ordered that it be forcefully quashed and its perpetrators punished. Mishima criticizes this decision, arguing that "an uprising for the sake of the emperor should be permitted as long as it does not violate cultural conventions." Viewed objectively, however, such criticism is a bit unrealistic. A ruling emperor could never approve of a coup d’état in which his cabinet ministers had been murdered one after another, whether or not the perpetrators claim to be acting on his behalf. Here Mishima is asking the impossible, and he should have realized it.

http://www.japanecho.com/sum/2007/340515.html

If at all Japan can be compared historically timeline wise it should be with Sri lanka.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 02 Apr 2016 16:09

^^

Indian elite is a miserable failure by comparison.

Of course invasions or lack of it play a big part but part of the avoiding invasions is knowing the enemy and preparing for him before he begins his strike or you even strike first.

Now consider that the Hindus had much freer access to English, Dutch, & other Westerners. But do you see any concerted effort on the part of our elite to study Western languages on their own & translate the knowledge and attempt to emulate the same before Brits began their conquest. Remember the Japanese had begun this by mid 1700's.

Consider too that the Japanese *never* in their history had encountered Mohammedans, yet Aizawa (who never read the Koran and perhaps unaware of even basic beliefs such as Mohammad's final prophet hood) was ready to declare them to be similar to Xtians (based on what he read of their behavior) and a threat. By contrast after 1300 years of non stop jihad and partition, Hindu elite teach others that Islam means peace.

Indian elite oversaw the disaster of partition while Japan lost the war. But look at the trajectories afterward, we didn't even exchange populations and shamelessly did nothing as Hindus were ruthlessly exterminated in Pakistan after abandoning them and foisted secularism on ourselves. Indian elite even filled border states like Asom with BD Muslims just for votes. Japan began rebuilding and soon again caught up technologically and economically, and now they want to even change the constitution to bring it in line with Japanese values even while being a client state. Despite pressure from the business lobby (Keidanren), they have not allowed mass immigration unlike many other developed countries and thus no mini khilafat's all over Japan (contrast this with what Indian elite did in Asom or WB). These are 2 very different elites with a vast gap in capabilities.

You won't find any clarity like this (Aizawa, 1825) among the Indian elite:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 02 Apr 2016 16:25

I will even give a very specific example to you. Velasco's plot was to use Ieyasu's request for cooperation in mining as the excuse to sneak in missionaries and spread them over Japan. Once they made enough converts, exert political influence through them and slowly turn Japan into a colony (Velasco knew that the Europeans had no chance of overcoming the Japanese militarily) and use the Japanese as cannon fodder to conquer Korea for Spain and perhaps even China (the Spanish had another independent plan to invade Ming China and forcibly convert them to Xtianity).

However in the end, the Shogunate extirpated Xtianity, expelled all Iberians and missionaries soon after, cut off trade with them. A key concern motivating their actions was foreign take over of Japan because they had become aware of what the Spanish did in the New World, Philippines, the religious wars in Europe etc. Ieyasu even used to send a fake Xtian Japanese merchant to nearby Philippines to spy and inform him on Spanish moves.

By contrast in Kerala, Ibn Batuta records that the local Muslim merchants used to cause trouble to their Hindu neighbors but the raja used to pacify the Hindus because he needed the Muslim trade, centuries later these local Muslims would join Tipu's jihad when he invaded Kerala. In Gujarata, Siddharaja had allowed free settlement of Muslim merchants and they seem to have acted as a fifth column paving the way for jihad. Sita Ram Goel documented an inscription by a Muslim merchant in Sanskrit and Arabic, the Sanskrit version prays for the kingdom but the Arabic version prays for conversion of Gujarat into dar-ul-Islam. He could have only made such an inscription if he was absolutely confident that the locals were totally oblivious.

Now, was it luck or Japan being an island nation that resulted in the failure of Velasco's plot. No it was Japanese preemptive strike due to their awareness and adherence to the maxim of "know the enemy".

Two centuries later Aizawa would again urge his countrymen about the renewed threat:

Image

"seizing the initiative is the key to ruling over others; waiting until too late is to be ruled over by them."

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 02 Apr 2016 17:41

Here are a couple more from Aizawa:

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A British report on the potential result of a war with Japan in 1863 (5 years before the Meiji restoration) when Japan was still largely closed and agrarian:

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More pre Meiji observations can be found here:

https://twitter.com/Rjrasva/status/592463241915203586

Golovnin in 1818 on the Japanese elite keeping a close track of events abroad and their worries about the British conquest of India:

https://twitter.com/Rjrasva/status/580374332653748224

By 1852 (16 years before Meiji restoration and before Perry's visit) they had evidently become quiet well acquainted the process of conquest of India:

Image

https://books.google.ca/books?id=VfxAAA ... &q&f=false

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 02 Apr 2016 17:52

I think my assumptions and your presumptions are different.

My assumptions

- Japan has a single language
- Japan is difficult to invade because of its geographical advantage being an island and lesser interaction with the outside world.
- Japan has more historic nation-state clarity of vision because of its unique geographical,language and cultural underpinnings
- It had stronger elite because of point no 2 as well as well oiled hierarchy with emperor, shogun, daimyo, samurai and a unified japan nation-state framework.

- India has a lot more open border on its western front, and has been constantly invaded.
- India had no clarity of nation-state pre 1800s. At best its a civilization state and not a nation-state with no clear boundaries.
- Indian elite where divided since there was an absence of any clear nation-state framework and where restricted to their own kingdoms or kings with very less influence across other states/kingdoms.

From what I understand[correct me if I am wrong] of your presumptions are more focussed on the elite and their actions and not on other factors...

- Japan had a strong elite and could gauge and analyse the invaders pattern pre and post invasions
- They stood up to them and defeated them in their tracks
- We need to follow/study the Japanese system and try to replicate

I do agree that the Indian elite failed in protecting India from the hordes of invaders and not able to dissect the invaders pre and post strategies when compared to the Japanese elite. But without a clear nation-state and theology to defend which is what the Japanese elite were defending, the Indian elite had nothing of that sort to defend. Is there any group of people or elite society which has defended a civilization state, i am not aware of it. Santana Dharma and Indian ethos is too wide, and spread thin and thick imho within the geographic boundaries of India. It cannot be defended, but neither can it be defeated completely, its always going to morph into something else once it contacts a foreign body.

While Japan had hard boundaries("we are japanese, we do it like this only and we are different", "sato-uchi", etc) and it still have clear boundaries and protocols in language, culture, religion and ethos, India has soft boundaries and protocols and is ready to morph into something new when touched or attacked.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 02 Apr 2016 18:11

On the stupendous growth of Japan post WWII, here is a excellent post....

The immediate jump-start came primarily thanks to the Korean War. The U.S. initiative on the peninsula needed a supply line, and Japan was the obvious source. While much of the Japanese infrastructure was destroyed during WW2, it wasn't a completely lost cause and many factories were reinitialized to support the new conflict. The result? A boost to jobs and the economy.

Japan's economy went through a magnificent boom in the early 60s called the Iwato Boom. It peaked in 1961 but ended shortly thereafter. This was partly sparked by the Vietnam War (as stated by Fred above). The War led to a new wave of American investment in Japanese industry to supply the troops in Southeast Asia. Also, because of America's entrance into southeast asia, a whole new market opened up. (If you walk the streets of thailand and vietnam now-a-days, a huge majority of all motor scooters/vehicles are Japanese made). However, by 1962, Japan was reaching a foreign currency crisis.

At the peak of the Iwato Boom there was a need for industrial raw materials and technology imports. This meant a major outflow of foreign currency, reducing the availble amounts on hand by nearly 20% in a matter of 5 months (April-Sep 1962). Therefore, the balance of payments (BOP - the balance of trade from one foreign country to another; essentially exports - imports; postive is good) dipped drastically below an equlibrium level (BOP=0) and reduced the demand for imports because there was not enough foreign currency on hand. But from 1963-64 there was a smaller, pre-Olympic boom where the construction industry surged and once again, imports were in need and the balance of payments again dipped lower (further negative). I'll come to how this BOP was fixed and why it didn't curb Japan's growth shortly.

Furthermore, in 1963 and '64, Pres. Kennedy initiated the "Defense of the Dollar" plan which essentially placed taxes on exports of capitals and set prices of American goods and services so they would not weaken with the dollar. Again, you can see the BOP problem arise: more expensive to buy foreign goods, therefore you need more foreign currency, therefore you decrease your BOP further.

From 1960 to 1970, Japan drastically increased it's production of industrial and non-industrial goods out of necessity. Here's a "table" of Japan's share of world production in some major resources and products of 1960 and '70.

................................1960 1970
Steel (raw).................6.4% 15.7%
Zinc..........................5.5% 13.7%
Ships.......................20.7% 48.3%
Passenger Cars........1.3% 14.2%
Industrial Vehicles.....1.6% 30.4%
Radios.....................30.1% 40.3%
Televisions...............21.5% 30.4%
Synthetic fibers........16.9% 21.0%

While you may look at "Industrial Vehicles" and "passenger Cars" and cry "Toyota!" and the like, remember that steel and zinc are necessary inputs for the production of manufactured goods. Of all of the above, Japan was in the top 3 producers of the world. With regard to ships, industrial vehicles, radios, and televisions, Japan was the largest producer in the world. So even though there was a brief recession in 1964-65 (post-Olympics), it was hardly enough to slow down this export economy to any real degree. Thus, this huge boost in exports helped offset the loss of foreign capital during the mid-50s to mid-60s.

From 1966-68, Japan surpassed England, West Germany, and France in terms of GNP (gross national product). That situated Japan as the 2nd strongest economic country in the world (after the USA).

As for the realtionship between Japan and America in the early 70s...well that can be summed up in three words: major trade friction. In 1967, America reported it's first ever trade deficit (BOP was negative; value of imports greater than exports). American textile and television firms accused Japan of dumping on American shores. Dumping here refers to the action of selling products abroad at a much lower price, usually a price that is normally a loss, while selling products domestically for a higher price (which makes up for this "loss" abroad). By doing this, Japanese companies gained a sizable marketshare in America and were hurting the domestic economy of America in the industries of television and textiles (predominantly). Thus, although America wasn't necessarily as profitable as domestic sales, the exports brought in much needed foreign currency.

PM Satō and Pres. Nixon initiated talks in 1969 about a voluntary reduction in imports from Japan, which Satō agreed too. However, nothing happend until 1972. (At the same time, Nixon and Satō discussed the retun of Okinawa back to Japan - which occured in 1972. A link to the reduced imports?). As a result of these "voluntary" restrictions on exports, the yen deflated from ¥360/$1 in 1971 to ¥80/$1 in 1995. Nevertheless, Japan went on to establish the world's largest bilateral trade surplus with America throughout the 1970s and early 80s, further contributing to Japan's BOP.

By 1970, America's before-mentioned trade deficit increased by four times! At this point, the Nixon administration stopped waiting for Japan to reduce it's imports. In July 1971, Nixon initiated talks with the People's Republic of China to improve relations (both political and economic) between the two countries. This was perfectly fine with Japan - China meant a brand new market to export it's goods. However, the fact that Nixon did not warn PM Satō irritated Japan and political as well as economic friction between the two countries developed. As a result, the right wing of the LDP became less enthusiastic to support America.

Note: Not necessarily related to the question, but for thoroughness:August 15th, 1972, the 2nd Nixon Shock occurred. At this point, the Nixon administration was tempted to do anything to save the dollar. So it pulled the dollar off of the gold standard and abandonded the Bretton Woods system (the dollar was the only currency able to be converted directly to gold, other currencies floated around the dollar). Now, the dollar was also floating in the economy as well and could fluctuate just as easily as other currencies. This meant a massive reduction in the strength of the dollar which made America's exports much more appealing to foreign countries (which would allow the BOP to balance out). Also, America placed a 10% surcharge on imports which made Japanese goods much more expensive to American buyers (Japanese goods already looked more expensive with the weakened dollar). But as the major restrictions on exports weren't put in place until later in the 70s, Japan was able to continue it's mass exports at higher returns.

The Yom Kippur War of 1974 caused the first oil crisis for Japan. OPEC declared a rise in the price of oil because the western nations did not stop supporting Israel. This caused the price per barrel of oil to go up from $2 to $35 - an increase of 1750%!!! In the first time in the post-war period, Japan's GNP fell by 1.4%. Many economists and policy-makers in Japan had warned that Japan was not self-sufficient enough, and this 1st Oil Crisis proved that. By the time the 2nd one came in 1978, Japan had reduced energy consumption by more than 20% and there was hardly a dip in the economy as the rest of the world reeled from the impact.


https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Korea ... ns-economy

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 02 Apr 2016 20:41

rhytha wrote:I think my assumptions and your presumptions are different.

My assumptions

- Japan has a single language
- Japan is difficult to invade because of its geographical advantage being an island and lesser interaction with the outside world.
- Japan has more historic nation-state clarity of vision because of its unique geographical,language and cultural underpinnings
- It had stronger elite because of point no 2 as well as well oiled hierarchy with emperor, shogun, daimyo, samurai and a unified japan nation-state framework.

- India has a lot more open border on its western front, and has been constantly invaded.
- India had no clarity of nation-state pre 1800s. At best its a civilization state and not a nation-state with no clear boundaries.
- Indian elite where divided since there was an absence of any clear nation-state framework and where restricted to their own kingdoms or kings with very less influence across other states/kingdoms.

From what I understand[correct me if I am wrong] of your presumptions are more focussed on the elite and their actions and not on other factors...

- Japan had a strong elite and could gauge and analyse the invaders pattern pre and post invasions
- They stood up to them and defeated them in their tracks
- We need to follow/study the Japanese system and try to replicate

I do agree that the Indian elite failed in protecting India from the hordes of invaders and not able to dissect the invaders pre and post strategies when compared to the Japanese elite. But without a clear nation-state and theology to defend which is what the Japanese elite were defending, the Indian elite had nothing of that sort to defend. Is there any group of people or elite society which has defended a civilization state, i am not aware of it. Santana Dharma and Indian ethos is too wide, and spread thin and thick imho within the geographic boundaries of India. It cannot be defended, but neither can it be defeated completely, its always going to morph into something else once it contacts a foreign body.

While Japan had hard boundaries("we are japanese, we do it like this only and we are different", "sato-uchi", etc) and it still have clear boundaries and protocols in language, culture, religion and ethos, India has soft boundaries and protocols and is ready to morph into something new when touched or attacked.

Broadly you got the gist but there are some points that need correction.

It is not true that there were no well defined geographic boundaries. In fact long after Mohammedans had erased Hindus from Afghanistan, the Marathas were still talking of retaking Kandahar showing that they very much had an idea of our original boundaries. There are several other points to be made in this regard but will be going OT.

The key failure of Marathas and others is not they lacked a notion of well defined geography or identity but that they failed to read the *other* (in this case the Mohammedans and Christians). This completely backfired on them during the Anglo-Maratha wars when Euro officers employed by them in key posts betrayed them at crucial times because they saw themselves as "white Christians" who could cooperate against the dark heathens. Contrary to the image presented of Maratha rabble overcome by the technologically superior British, it came down to this. The technological gap wasn't huge because the industrial revolution had yet to take off. If interested, check "The Anglo-Maratha Campaigns and the Contest for India" by Randolf Cooper.

This inability to read/understand the enemy is also why Vijayanagara was destroyed. The Japanese would have never filled up their army with Muslims even as they fought jihadists as Ramaraya did.

As far as surviving, India is a pale shadow of what it once was, and lost close to half of its territory, now on the process to losing more. Eventually such civilizations go extinct just as ancient Egypt went extinct after lasting over 3000 years. There is no inevitable triumph for any civilization.

Coming to Japan, yes Japan has a single language today but before Meiji there was no standardization and someone from Edo would have had a pretty hard time in understanding the Satsuma dialect. Likewise before Meiji, the society was divided into rigid hereditary groups (Samurai, Artisans, Farmers, Merchants, Buraku). One should not confuse today's Japan with the Japan of 150 or more years ago. Yes, Japan was always more homogeneous than India or China but its also the case that it has become a lot more homogeneous in a *conscious effort* to stave off the Western threat. As Lafcadio Hearn put it:
And for that very reason, when Japan at last found herself face to face with the unexpected peril of Western aggression, the abolition of the dairmates was felt to be a matter of paramount importance. The supreme danger required that the social units should be fused into one coherent mass, capable of uniform action, - that the clan and tribal groupings should be permanently dissolved, - that all authority should immediately be centred in the representative of the national religion, - that the duty of obedience to the Heavenly Sovereign should replace, at once and forever, the feudal duty of obedience to the territorial lord. The religion of loyalty, evolved by a thousand years of war, could not be cast away - properly utilized, it would prove a national heritage of incalculable worth, - a moral power capable of miracles if directed by one wise will to a single wise end. Destroyed by reconstruction it could not be; but it could be diverted and transformed. Diverted, therefore, to nobler ends - expanded to larger needs, - it became the new national sentiment of trust and duty: the modern sense of patriotism. What wonders it has wrought, within the space of thirty years, the world is now obliged to confess: what more it may be able to accomplish remains to be seen. One thing at least is certain, - -that the future of Japan must depend upon the maintenance of this new religion of loyalty, evolved, through the old, from the ancient religion of the dead.

http://explorion.net/japan-attempt-inte ... lty?page=6

Of course India can't emulate Japan exactly any more than the Japanese can emulate us exactly but certain elements needs to be carefully studied and adapted. Chief among them is the ability to read your enemy and taking precautions before a threat materializes not doing randi rona afterwards. BTW this is not something I came up with but something Tilak taught his followers. He used to tell them to study Japan, even sent his disciples like Vasukaka Joshi and Khadilkar there, and he himself followed East Asian affairs with a keen eye. Evidently he even wrote a piece comparing Hindu and Shinto pantheons.

Finally here is something from Keampfer who lived in Japan in the 1690's as an employee of the Dutch VOC:

Image

https://books.google.ca/books?id=H2xdLb ... &q&f=false

Note the vigilance about border security even though the last of the public Xtians had been wiped out by 1640's. So he was writing 50 years afterwards when they had long ceased being a threat.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 02 Apr 2016 20:49


sanjaykumar
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2016 05:49

Interesting posts, however the concept of the 'other' may be nebulous at best for Hindus. The very problem is the heterogeneity of languages, Hinduism's myriad strands, races, customs under the overarching civilisational.

When a European is sighted there is already a paradigm of light complexioned Indians from Sindh, Kashmir, Kabul etc. When an iconoclastic monotheism is introduced, it has already been normalised by a previous experience with Mohammedanism.

India is a peculiar and perhaps unique society where horizontal stratification into classes and occupations is complemented by a vertical stratification of castes (also a feature of horizontal stratification), linguistic groups, races and cultures.

However Japan's success in expunging Christianity may be evidence of a fundamental flaw in Japanese culture. There are three superstates in the contemporary world-US, China and India. For the first time I am actual sanguine about India and believe it to be the second most successful superstate behind the US (of course at present economically a distant third).

Japan produced much art and material culture. But they are in awe of China. And China's historical intellectual contributions may be secondary to India's.

Thus Japan's society was successful in that particular moment in time, judged by that particular historical assessment (autonomy, self-preservation). Today Japan emulates the West, Caucasian worship is revoltingly obvious, even beyond China's and India's. Even Japanese ***** stars wear the cross (perhaps as irony, I never understood that). It has lost much of its technological lead (any software written in Japan or Japanese commercial airliners). Their society is literally dying.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 03 Apr 2016 06:37

^^

Clearly you don't know much about Japanese history if you think they are in awe of China or were in awe of China 200 years ago.

Wishful thinking and fantasies are no substitute for cogent analysis.

Did you know that PRC's TFR is about the same as Japan's or perhaps even lower. So if Japan is dying, so is China.

India is a superstate, ever looked at what is going in on Asom or WB or Kashmir?

A superstate that can't even resettle lakhs of Hindu refugees decades after their expulsion!

BTW cross wearing is also prevalent in India, only that instead of a fashion statement, entire states (Andhra for example) are taking to wearing them and begging their masters in USA to help wipe out the remaining Hindoos. Perhaps visit Andhra or TN or follow sighbaboo on twitter, will help bring you in touch with some reality.

Selective interpretations like this are dime a dozen. Speaking of western worship, how come we are conducting this conversation in English instead of in any Indian language? the Japanese conduct their everyday lives in Japanese while people in India increasingly conduct theirs in Hinglish, Tamglish etc. But I suppose that will somehow be spun as a sign of "Indian strength" and "adaptability" (where as if its the other way around, we will be speaking of how those people worship the West).

And to bring up software, as if technology is only software. The laughable claim becomes obvious when we face the fact that there are hardly any Indian MNC's worth talking about while a country with 10X fewer people has dozens or do you think the likes of Panasonic, Toyota, Mitsubishi run on jugaad instead of technology?

Here is a reality check for you:
Tracking Evangelism
‏@trackevangelism
#DailyLove Soul vendor 4m AP to his clients in US: "Our mission is share gospel to heathen ppl &win India for Christ"

https://twitter.com/trackevangelism/sta ... 8374598656

Note the fake accent too lol.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2016 06:48

I see you will not be satisfied by anything other than a Hindu rashtra, or swarajya. Those ideas belong in the dustbin of history. Useless anachronisms in a world characterised by conflict between persuasion with ideas and reason and brute violence.

And yes, please do have a chat with a thinking Japanese about their heritage's debt to China. So that you may be better educated. You seem to be very poorly informed indeed.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 03 Apr 2016 07:16

sanjaykumar wrote:I see you will not be satisfied by anything other than a Hindu rashtra, or swarajya. Those ideas belong in the dustbin of history. Useless anachronisms in a world characterised by conflict between persuasion with ideas and reason and brute violence.

And yes, please do have a chat with a thinking Japanese about their heritage's debt to China. So that you may be better educated. You seem to be very poorly informed indeed.

Nice dodge.

What has Hindu rashtra got to do with resettling refugee victims of jihadis?

Yes only you know "thinking Japanese" which is why you came up with such an amazing post filled with nonsense.

The discussion was going on as a fine exchange of ideas until you had to butt in with total bilge.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2016 07:22

Why not address the points instead of feeble attempts at deflection from your antediluvian political views?

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby member_19686 » 03 Apr 2016 07:25

sanjaykumar wrote:Why not address the points instead of feeble attempts at deflection from your antediluvian political views?

What points?

You have none, the most worthless post in this entire thread.

Get back to typing code at Infosys thinking that is the epitome of technology or the only technology there is.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Apr 2016 07:30

You are only confirming your credentials. Let us leave it at that for now.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 03 Apr 2016 09:35

Mod Note:

Surasena and sanjaykumar, please stick to the topic of Japan. I also recommend that you put each other on your ignore lists. Your entire set of posts above on this page is unsuitable to this thread. Forum guidelines clearly state that religion is not a topic suitable for discussion, except in threads where they are given some leeway. A continuation of your discussion will result in warnings.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 07 Apr 2016 12:51

rhytha wrote:While Japan had hard boundaries("we are japanese, we do it like this only and we are different", "sato-uchi", etc) and it still have clear boundaries and protocols in language, culture, religion and ethos, India has soft boundaries and protocols and is ready to morph into something new when touched or attacked.

Uchi-soto is a lot more complex than Japanese vs foreigner. Strictly speaking, it defines an insider (uchi)/outsider (soto) relationship on various matters. For example, you're an insider to your family and an unrelated person is not. A person may consider his peers and subordinates at work within his group and those superior as outside his group. It's tied to the structure of Japanese language as well. Therefore, in group communication will be more casual, while communication outside of group is formal. The distinctions vary by who is addressing whom in what context. Actually it's not hard for an Indian to grasp. For example, your boss considers you his subordinate and therefore uses casual speech to address you. However he's an outsider to your family, and if he encounters them, he addresses them in polite language. Foreigners of course are considered universally soto, but depending on context may be treated with casual or polite language.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby rhytha » 11 Apr 2016 14:52

BUSHIDO: WAY OF TOTAL BULLSHIT
EVERYTHING TOM CRUISE TAUGHT YOU ABOUT SAMURAI IS WRONG

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Apr 2016 06:19

Japanese headhunters want engineers from Karnataka - The Hindu
With Japanese firms setting their sights on hiring engineers from India’s Silicon Valley, the Karnataka government wants to push for Japanese language courses in universities to hone the skills of job aspirants.

Representatives of Silver Peak, a Japanese firm, visited the Visvesvaraya Technological University (VTU), Belagavi, and a few engineering colleges in different parts of the State, to assess the quality of engineering candidates.

They later called on Higher Education Minister T.B. Jayachandra and discussed the massive drive undertaken by the Japanese government to hire engineers.

Representatives said Japan wants to recruit 40,000 engineers from India and Vietnam. But fluency in Japanese is an important criterion for the candidates. “Since several reputed engineering colleges are located in Bengaluru and other parts of Karnataka, we are keen on hiring engineers from here,” the delegation member said.

The issue of teaching Japanese would be placed before the Higher Education Council meeting on May 3, and modalities will be worked out on design and content of the Japanese course to be imparted by universities, Mr. Jayachandra said.

A 30-member Japanese delegation will visit Bengaluru soon to work out modalities for hiring engineers and professionals, the firm representative said.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 24 Apr 2016 12:35

Trivia
Japan's Muslim population consists mainly of Indonesians and other small expatriate communities, which represent less than 0.08% of the total population, while the estimated Japanese Muslims consist of less than 0.008% of the total population.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Bhurishrava » 28 Apr 2016 16:59

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/japan ... 32432.html

Japan’s inexperience in the defense industry has cost it $40 billion


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