India and Japan: News and Discussion

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nam
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Nov 2018 00:27

Bart S wrote:
Nobody does that. They didn't go to China to 'build the Chinese tech industry', they did so because China delivered on the infrastructure, logistics and labour laws and they saw the opportunity to make money from it. We are building infrastructure at least, albeit much slower than the Chinese pace, but on labour reform it has been a big zero from all govts including current central and state ones so far. Don't expect large scale manufacturing to come here without that. India did have an advantage with electronics R&D and NPI type operations at least, but the Chinese have taken that over starting from low-end assembly and moved far ahead.


It is not always our fault. There are enough states with good infrastructure and relaxed labour laws. If labor and infra were that bad, companies like Samsung would not be setting up shop.

South Korean companies seem to be more forth coming. SK even let K9 manufacturing to L&T for pity order of 100. Compared to that we invited Japan for P75I, the declined participate. On the other hand they have been very eager to manufacture the same sub in Australia, along with tech transfer

Given that Japan wants us to counter balance China in Asia and our drawback being technology, I would expect a push from the Japanese government to encourage Japanese companies to move some of the production from China and building up of Indian production and R&D tech. Nothing of that sort is happening. As seen in the Bullet train deal, if the Japanese gov really wants, it can make things happen.

I have come to a understanding that Japanese see us a competitor in Asia over the long term and have learnt from Chinese experience. Since we are in good terms with the West and in 10 years will have similar GDP economy, Japan would not like to set up another competitor, specially in the "friendly camp".

China is the adversary for Japan & US. India is not, in the same camp and have many advantages, which might bring down Japan's value in the group.

We should form a more strategic relationship with SK, if Japan is not planning to have a forth coming attitude.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2018 09:05

nam wrote:We should form a more strategic relationship with SK, if Japan is not planning to have a forth coming attitude.


There's little to believe that SK will be any different in this matter. For instance, have a look at the tech transfer disagreements involving K9 Vajra.

No one is going to share their secrets and risk the recipient surpassing them in one way or the other. Japan, SoKo and Taiwan are in a unique position of having received generous tech inputs and then generously or rather naively doling it out to the Chinese (in case of Japan also to SoKo and Taiwan) who are now undercutting them in the very same domains.

The only way to get the tech is to develop our own and as unethical as it may appear, the Chinese way.

nam
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby nam » 19 Nov 2018 13:25

Kashi wrote:
The only way to get the tech is to develop our own and as unethical as it may appear, the Chinese way.


We cannot realistically expect to design and build ourselves, specially for tech which we have no ecosystem of. We need someone to teach us to some level. Else there would be no need of universities and student can graduate themselves by studying at home.

Why do we need to steal? Look at Turkey. It has access to european tech and has been able to grow their ecosystem and build some good weapon system. Did they steal?

I am a great supporter of kis** Japan, SK & taiwan where ever they want, as long as they include us in their production supply & design chain.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 19 Nov 2018 14:03

nam wrote:We cannot realistically expect to design and build ourselves, specially for tech which we have no ecosystem of. We need someone to teach us to some level. Else there would be no need of universities and student can graduate themselves by studying at home.

Why do we need to steal? Look at Turkey. It has access to european tech and has been able to grow their ecosystem and build some good weapon system. Did they steal?

I am a great supporter of kis** Japan, SK & taiwan where ever they want, as long as they include us in their production supply & design chain.


One may argue we have done similar with the auto industry, but still critical components (gear box transmission) are not fully indigenised.

Regarding Turkey, I do not really know how much high-end stuff they have actually designed as opposed to licensed manufacture.

The thing is our requirements are immense, we need cutting edge tech, but no one out there will share the meaty details with us, because then they will lose their cutting edge and they spend a long long time, money and efforts to get there. This is why they will be happy to set up license manufacturing and share the blue prints, tooling etc. But will always hold back the know-why. In the case of Japan, Korea and Taiwan it's a case of once-bitten-twice-shy based on their past experiences with China, or in case of Japan, thrice-bitten-so-very-shy. Why would they want to repeat, what they perceive as their past mistakes with us?

This is not about "kis*" anyone, but about realising that for cutting edge technologies, we'll have to develop it ourselves. Facilitate a set up that will nurture ideas and startups that will one day evolve into cutting edge technologies and applications. We can and should endeavour to participate in the supply chain and for that we need to provide incentives for those willing to invest. Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese or Europeans will all look for similar incentives that would prompt them to move their existing supply chains to India.

Other option is buy the technology and the know-why as it becomes available on the market- companies going into bankruptcy or disengaging from certain applications, for instance and therefore, IP and all the other details are put on sale. I believe Kalyani systems purchased the designs and all the tech for manufacturing 155mm guns from an Austrian company.

But even there, governments are also mindful of letting sensitive knowledge pass into foreign hands. Toshiba recently filed for bankruptcy and put out their units for sale, including the chip-making unit. Japanese government blocked a proposal from a Chinese company to acquire the unit.

Heck we have had Tatas owning JLR and Corus for a decade now. How much of high-end stuff from there has actually found its way into Tata Steel and/or Tata Motors?

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2019 19:26

japan had no natural resources to plunder so perhaps thats why nobody showed a persistent interest in conquering it.

indonesia, malaya and india were the prize catches , and some strategic choke points like aden, suez, hormuz, trincomalee, singapore and hong kong

when the japanese realized their leg, they proactively went out and learned as much as they could to haul themselves up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration


The Japanese knew that they were behind the Western world when US Commodore Matthew C. Perry came to Japan in 1853 in large warships with armaments and technology that far outclassed those of Japan with the intent to conclude a treaty that would open up Japanese ports to trade.[1] Figures like Shimazu Nariakira concluded that "if we take the initiative, we can dominate; if we do not, we will be dominated", leading Japan to "throw open its doors to foreign technology." Observing Japan's response to the Western powers, Chinese general Li Hongzhang considered Japan to be China's "principal security threat" as early as 1863, five years before the Meiji Restoration.[2]

The leaders of the Meiji Restoration, as this revolution came to be known, acted in the name of restoring imperial rule to strengthen Japan against the threat represented by the colonial powers of the day, bringing to an end the era known as sakoku (the foreign relations policy, lasting about 250 years, prescribing the death penalty for foreigners entering or Japanese nationals leaving the country). The word "Meiji" means "enlightened rule" and the goal was to combine "modern advances" with traditional "eastern" values.[3] The main leaders of this were Itō Hirobumi, Matsukata Masayoshi, Kido Takayoshi, Itagaki Taisuke, Yamagata Aritomo, Mori Arinori, Ōkubo Toshimichi, and Yamaguchi Naoyoshi.
.....
. Despite the help Japan received from other powers, one of the key factors in Japan's industrializing success was its relative lack of resources, which made it unattractive to Western imperialism.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby dinesh_kimar » 27 Jun 2019 20:25

^ Another reason for Japan to be unattractive as a British colony - the Japanese were united under the Emperor, had an armament mfg capability ( incl. Steam powered battleships) and were united as a people. No foreigners for trade were allowed in as a rule, only engineers and technicians.

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussions- June 2017

Postby Singha » 27 Jun 2019 23:48

its worth noting japan faced rice famine several times and this drove immigration first to hawaii and then california, which was not well received by the whites. they wanted to be the leading colonial power in the west pacific and use its resources , but ran into the western alliance.


sanjaykumar
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Jun 2019 03:12

Japan like India has had an open source code religious life. In India one may contribute to the corpus ad lib and take away what one prefers.

I have begun to think that is a more civilised method than....ahem.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 28 Jun 2019 22:21

"The Last Samurai" is a very inaccurate characterization of what Japan was going through during the Meiji Restoration, but it looks over the broader picture. Japan was not united behind the emperor during that period. The whole reason it's called a 'restoration' is because political power was restored to the imperial office from the hands of the shogun. The emperor was just a ceremonial position during the Edo period (~1600-~1860). There was a full scale civil war - the Boshin War fought over this.

Within a decade of the war, there was another rebellion, this time between imperial forces pushing modernization, and disaffected samurai - the Satsuma Rebellion. The leader of the samurai during this rebellion, Saigo Takamori, is the person whose life is portrayed by the 'Katsumoto' character in the movie. The Tom Cruise character is of course complete fiction - it was the Germans who trained the imperial forces and not Americans.

The Meiji Era was a period when Japan carefully but successfully conducted the hair raising transition from isolated pre-industrial island backwater to the first industrial power in Asia. It learned the right lessons, understood what to imbibe (technology) and what to keep out (religion), and went about transforming their society within 3-5 decades, culminating in the Battle of Tsushima that cemented their world power status. The British built flagship of Admiral Togo (not the same guy as the WW2 baddie Tojo) - Mikasa - continues to be preserved as a public museum in Yokosuka. I've visited it.

The reason why the movie is mostly inaccurate is that it romanticizes the samurai and Katsumoto's character, while making the Omura character - the emperor's agent, as some sort of evil person. In reality. the real person behind Omura himself was a samurai, and understood that the samurai resistance could harm Japan's long term progress. It was a difficult decision they made, to deliberately gut their former society in order to modernize. There are lessons in it for how India should manage modernization.

The Japanese venerate Emperor Meiji. The Meiji Shrine is a major place of visit, located adjacent to the huge Yoyogi Park in central/southwest Tokyo. Every Dec 31 midnight, one can see how Japan mixes tradition and modernity - tons of people throng all major Shinto shrines - Meiji Shrine in particular - to offer hatsumoude. They show up in all kinds of garb and vehicles, from regular clothes on subway or foot, to high end suits and outfits in Lexuses, stand in line in the freezing cold of late night, ring the large gong and offer prayers. It was an interesting sight and experience for me to see. Should be fun to experience again this winter.

Both Meiji Shrine and Yasukuni Shrine (yes, that controversial one) are great places for Indians to visit in Tokyo - the latter has a special shrine dedicated to Justice Radhabinod Pal. Some older guy politely asked me "Indo ?" ("Are you Indian ?") when I was there reading the plaque of that memorial, and nodded in appreciation when I said yes. I found it remarkable that in a creative and cultured way they assert their own historical viewpoint in that manner, by deifying one particular judge who sat back amidst the kangaroo court of the post WW2 trials and said something different from the west.

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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby Haresh » 17 Jul 2019 18:44

The man behind some of Japan's most stylish denim has one main rule: fabric first

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/ ... S77zI5KiUk

sanjaykumar
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Re: India and Japan: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Jul 2019 19:57

As an aside, the longest staple cotton is grown in India. The Japanese but most of it. I’m trying to get my hands on this cotton.


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