Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 02 Apr 2011 10:21

^^^indeed Iran-Israel relations were quite good during days of the Shah. The artificiality of the current rivalry is due to the ideology of Islamic Revolution and Iranian ambition of projecting itself as voice of muslims by being the loudest exponent of palestine.

For the 2 to co-operate, there has to be serious redefinition of national objectives on part of Iran - can only come about as a result of democracy. It's current objectives are hardly "national"; they serve the ideology more than it's own people.

Iran is a stellar example of what happens when national objectives are driven by "ideological" or "cultural" reasons, not purely "material".

Indian commentry on Iran administration's irrationality

jiteshn · Post by **jiteshn** » 02 Apr 2011 11:47

Things are not black and white. How can you justify israel's activities? The shia's are the outcasts of the muslim world. Its embarrassing to watch them beg for acceptance through screaming and shouting at the infidels.

I refuse to believe that a tribe from this very same stock played a part in pioneering the pantheist belief systems.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Apr 2011 10:00

^^^ didn't say things were black and white. but Iran going off about wiping Israel off the map is counter productive. it strengthens US imperialist projects. it gives upper hand to Anglo-Saxon propaganda of freedom/liberty/justice, while actually it's nothing but brazen imperialism. it is even more comical that Iran is willingly playing the fool. Iran as an upper hand for now only b/c of US blunders in Iraq, and to an extent Af-Pak. Iran's position would be stronger without the rhetoric of wiping Israel off the map. though i'm not saying that's good for India, which I can't judge b/c i don't understand enough on how Persian/Arab/Israeli angle works wrt Bharatiya position.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 22 Apr 2011 20:24

Celebrating India in Israel

http://www.celebratingindiaisrael.com/index.html

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 May 2011 06:29

Mideast crisis, Israel to compromise on Palestine and capturing Osama - are these the elements of Barack Obama's world order? What is next? Cashmeer solution?

Face to face, Netanyahu rejects Obama on borders

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected the idea of using his country’s 1967 boundaries as the basis for a neighboring Palestinian state on Friday, declaring his objections face-to-face to President Barack Obama, who had raised the idea just 24 hours earlier in an effort to revive stalled peace talks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 May 2011 07:14

BiBi spoke well and in measured tones.

Looks like Obama's ME initiative fizzled.

hubris?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 May 2011 07:21

Who is BiBi? I lost the track of this acronym

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 May 2011 07:26

BiBi = Benjamin Netanyahu

arun · Post by **arun** » 21 May 2011 08:31

Alex Stein on “What India can teach Israel”:

The Indian experience demonstrates that pluralism needn’t mean giving up on a nation’s raison d’etre and that there is nothing to fear from ensuring that minorities have full rights. There is no reason why Israeli nationalism has to come at the expense of Palestinian nationalism. There is no reason why Israeli Arabs cannot play a full part in the life of the Jewish state. We just have to be courageous enough to open ourselves to these possibilities.

Read it all:

Todays Zaman

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 21 May 2011 10:32

ManishH wrote:^^^indeed Iran-Israel relations were quite good during days of the Shah. ...

For the 2 to co-operate, there has to be serious redefinition of national objectives on part of Iran - can only come about as a result of democracy. It's current objectives are hardly "national"; they serve the ideology more than it's own people.

If I had a way, I would broker a neutrality deal between Iran and Israel for following reasons.
For Israelis,
1. They can put pressure on Americans by leveraging Iran.Just start to buy more Iranian gas and pay in euros if Americans start blabbering about some brain-fade withdrawal plans. These pipelines can start and stop at will. Perfect lever.
2. There are Jews in Iran.
3. Perfect hedge against KSA.
For Iran,
1. Befriending Israel will improve their international image as a tolerant Islamic state. Good PR ==> Good for Business
2. Can benefit in working together to undermine KSA.

India is the only player who can broker a deal between the two countries. Both Iran and Israel can trust us, our friendship is our credential.We have no agenda except to undermine Pakistan(which btw is not even in the discussion!)
If the three I's come together,Its a win-win situation. Israel-India-Iran working to eliminate the wahhabi brand of Islam. There is nothing Unkil or Aunty could do. Lizard wouldnt dare.
Why cannot we start with just a small think tank and churn out some research together.It wouldn't hurt but would definitely get attention

That is motivation for me. A sense of team work can snowball into much big over time. Who knows a Joint Task Force in coming years! JMT
Altair

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 21 May 2011 11:47

^^^
an Israel-Iran peace would remake MENA debate altogether. it would radically change all the equations, and completely throw into chaos American projects in the region, until they adjust to the new situation and recalibrate their policies in response to the new situation. US will try its best to make sure this never happens though. regions developing independent and peaceful long term alliances is a bad thing for US. when there is a conflict in limbo, just simmering under the level of actual War, America prefers that situation the best. that way they can come in and play the savior and play each other off. a Shia-Yehudi entente can destroy Anglo/American dreams in ME and India.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 21 May 2011 13:06

A commentator on NPR said recently "regional rivals distrust the US less than they distrust each other" (referring to things like these).

Not every country is thinking grand strategy of demolishing US power. That is why this continues.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 May 2011 15:27

Israel and Iran have been allied discretely for a long time. US wants Iran to rule the Middle East. Problem is Iran doesn't want to drop the anti-israel terror. Once this regime goes in Iran, Iran and Israel will be thickest of friends.

Removal of Saddam was one of the processes to shia'ize the peninsula. Iran contra etc etc. You will slowly realise that US has been trying to get Iran and ISrael to become allies. But the problem was that Iran wasn't willing to drop its sponsor of terror groups. Read Rob Sobhani's book on Iran - Israel relations and how thier interests converged, how they worked to gether and so on.

This is part of the reason why KSa has dropped its oil for security deal with the US. KSA/GCC will go its own way from now on. We are just seeing the 2001 situation play out once again, when in Aug 2001 King Abdullah cut relations with US. Then US agreed to re-launch peace process. THen Sept 11th happened the day they were due to meet up to discuss how they were going to do it.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 21 May 2011 17:45

Netanyahu Urges U.S. Return To 1845 Borders

Aboard Air Force Aleph (Reuters) – Speaking to reporters accompanying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on his long flight to the United States tonight, Netanyahu spoke of the injustice and hardship Mexicans have endured since American forces annexed Texas in 1845. “Tens of thousands of ordinary Mexicans were driven out of their homes – the only homes they had known for centuries – and forced to live in poverty and squalor south of the border imposed by American aggression,” Netanyahu said. “The Israeli and Mexican people agree on this: This festering wound will never heal until America takes bold steps to return to the internationally accepted lines of 1845. Clearly the settlement activity that’s taken place in occupied Mexico since then is illegal. When I meet the President tomorrow I will tell him to halt all building activity in Texas immediately. Two lands for two peoples, yes, but not on land taken by force from Mexico,” the Prime Minister said.
Asked if his hard-line stance could hurt the U.S.-Israel relationship, Netanyahu reiterated Israel’s commitment to America’s security and the unshakeable friendship shared by the two countries, then added, “But who was it who said, part of friendship is being able to tell your friend the truth. The ball is now in Obama’s court.”

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 May 2011 17:50

Love the Yehudi's and their tough talk. Wish our babus are watching on how to give ot back when absurd demands are made ( like give up Cashmere and make peace, walk out of Afg since Pakis are jumpy etc)..

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 21 May 2011 18:16

Thats satirical and not real news. Israel knows all too well not to bite the hand that feeds her.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 May 2011 18:19

^^ Never know, a wikileak of a Israeli-Amriki meet might actually throw up such statements. Knowing the Yehudis, wont be surprised.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 21 May 2011 18:44

Even BiBi knows that PoTUS is just playing to the Gallery and all this call of returning to 1967 borders and make peace with terrorists is hogwash for Abduls and Joe's. Israel - Philistine issue will not go away just because they barter land. Lot of leaders and middle-men will be jobless if Peace ever returns to ME.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 May 2011 20:20

I don't blame Obama for doing what he did. He had to make this strong statement as did Bush in Sept 2001 just before 9/11 to save the GCC alliance. We all knew Bibi was going to say no. Obama knows it was a risky move given elections in 2012 but the call for going back to 67 was done in national interest. We all knew Bibi was going to refuse it. I saw Bibi's speech, he spoke clearly and in an honest way - about the major issues i.e. refugees. What he said was correct. But hey, these are clearly problems that can be solved. Its just political will that is needed.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 May 2011 22:28

Altair wrote:

If I had a way, I would broker a neutrality deal between Iran and Israel for following reasons.

India is the only player who can broker a deal between the two countries. Both Iran and Israel can trust us, our friendship is our credential.We have no agenda except to undermine Pakistan(which btw is not even in the discussion!)

This brokering business by India has been commented in various books and even by Kissinger.
There is contempt about India in this and Indians have to realise this.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 22 May 2011 07:22

Acharya wrote:
Altair wrote:

If I had a way, I would broker a neutrality deal between Iran and Israel for following reasons.

India is the only player who can broker a deal between the two countries. Both Iran and Israel can trust us, our friendship is our credential.We have no agenda except to undermine Pakistan(which btw is not even in the discussion!)
This brokering business by India has been commented in various books and even by Kissinger.
There is contempt about India in this and Indians have to realise this.

Why? Please elaborate.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 May 2011 07:40

Altair wrote:Why? Please elaborate.

Long years of following Acharya-san have taught me that there is and can be no elaboration only. Over time, BRFites simply get used to it and change the channel.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 22 May 2011 10:36

Obviously I have no knowledge about the contempt for Indians in this regard but I would like to know. The world has changed and certainly India has changed. If we are to even have a respectful place in UNSC then we should be good in brokering. The reason I can think of is that India have had some very go-by-book diplomats and nehruvian ambassadors preaching NAM and such crap who are very uncomfortable taking extra risk needed in international relations.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 May 2011 10:47

India cannot broker an Israel-Iran peace, simply because the "enmity" is needed by the ruling elite in Iran for its credentials as a protector of the Islamic faith! How is India supposed to broker something for which there is no constituency in power in Iran?

The problem unlike in Communist China where the Chinese leadership could take decisions in 1971 in favor of the nation even as they were against ideological inclinations, in Iran, it is not possible as the word of Allah takes precedence over the needs of the nation, and the leadership's hands are tied.

What India can however do is to act as a middle-man for intelligence sharing.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 22 May 2011 16:47

RajeshA wrote:India cannot broker an Israel-Iran peace, simply because the "enmity" is needed by the ruling elite in Iran for its credentials as a protector of the Islamic faith! How is India supposed to broker something for which there is no constituency in power in Iran?

The problem unlike in Communist China where the Chinese leadership could take decisions in 1971 in favor of the nation even as they were against ideological inclinations, in Iran, it is not possible as the word of Allah takes precedence over the needs of the nation, and the leadership's hands are tied.

What India can however do is to act as a middle-man for intelligence sharing.

Thanks for your comments. I guess a day will come, hopefully sooner than later when there are sensible people in power in Iran and can take sensible decisions.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 22 May 2011 19:50

arun wrote:Alex Stein on “What India can teach Israel”:

The Indian experience demonstrates that pluralism needn’t mean giving up on a nation’s raison d’etre and that there is nothing to fear from ensuring that minorities have full rights. There is no reason why Israeli nationalism has to come at the expense of Palestinian nationalism. There is no reason why Israeli Arabs cannot play a full part in the life of the Jewish state. We just have to be courageous enough to open ourselves to these possibilities.
Read it all:

Todays Zaman

The last thing Israel should do is, learn leftist pap from India. The silliness of some who think India can teach others stuff when it is impotently reacting to threats from Islamists of Pakistan and China.

India's leftist pap has put Kashmir outside and has not helped integrate it with the rest of India by not allowing all Indians movement among states. India's leftist pap has allowed the christian right wing to take over north eastern states and is losing its writ there. India's leftist pap has empowered the Maoists/communists instead of ruthlessly dealing with these terrorists.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Jun 2011 01:43

Israel, India look to hi-tech as trade ties expand

While bilateral trade has grown exponentially, the agreement between the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII), the country’s biggest trade association, and the Israel High Tech Industries Association, is unusual in that it focuses on technology. The Indian state of Andhra Pradesh, home to the up-and-coming software center of Hyderbad, is close to signing a pact with Israel’s Matimop, a government agency that facilitates multinational research and development ventures.
:
Andhra Pradesh is already a high tech powerhouse, with software exports last year of $8 billion, equal to half the state’s total. But Ajay Misra, principal secretary to the state’s Information Technology and Communication Department, said India had ambitions to expand out of software into computer and telecommunications hardware. Israeli innovation could help, he said.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 04 Jun 2011 00:10

“Dagan is really worried about September,” Mr. Shavit said in a telephone interview, referring to the date when the Palestinians are expected to ask the United Nations General Assembly to recognize their state within the 1967 lines. The resolution is expected to pass and to bring new forms of international pressure on Israel. “He is afraid that Israel’s isolation will cause its leaders to take reckless action against Iran.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/04/world ... ad.html?hp

I think I referred to this in the US-India thread

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Jun 2011 00:18

Hari Seldon wrote:
Altair wrote:Why? Please elaborate.
Long years of following Acharya-san have taught me that there is and can be no elaboration only. Over time, BRFites simply get used to it and change the channel.

Rajesh Ji has explained.
Also India suggesting such things are not given importance now. Iran may prefer this but western powers never want to give another 3rd country this previledge.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Jun 2011 18:37

Manny wrote:
The last thing Israel should do is, learn leftist pap from India. The silliness of some who think India can teach others stuff when it is impotently reacting to threats from Islamists of Pakistan and China.

India's leftist pap has put Kashmir outside and has not helped integrate it with the rest of India by not allowing all Indians movement among states. India's leftist pap has allowed the christian right wing to take over north eastern states and is losing its writ there. India's leftist pap has empowered the Maoists/communists instead of ruthlessly dealing with these terrorists.

Israel has its own quite shrill dhimmi lobby, more perhaps outside the state than inside. The difference from India is that they do not have such a big finger within the ruling systems as in India's left.

The move for UN resolution on Palestine state being passed - will be interesting to see. First it will have a domestic fallout in the USA and I think even BHO will do a moonwalk on this as he gets closer to re-election. UK may try to balance things out with its finger in the Islamic rearside as always, by licking both halves of the gluteals of this contest. Russia again will have to be ambivalent, even if leaning partly towards giving Israel a hiding [again a mixture of ideological and strategic considerations]. France and China have some very interesting calculations to make.

But for India, well, recognition of Palestine independent state is the start of the long downhill skiing on J&K.

Over the long term, I feel that Israel will face being overrun by Islamist hordes - whose only backing of Palestine comes out of a strategic military consideration of getting a salient deep into Israeli territory. It is a key component of the mullahcracy's strategy to get rid of non-Islamic bases in between the East and the West - so that they can sit astride the main productive network of the world and get a "cut". Basically they can maintain their 7th century social framework and clampdown on free inquiry and knowledge seeking - while maintaining a reasonable consumption level by holding main producers of the world hostage. If theya re successful on Palestine - they will next try for J&K. So far every one of their moves to create and carve out an Islamic homeland within non-Muslim territories have been successful unless it directly affected the "big" five. India is not one of the big five - so why cannot they hope to repeat a Croatia, and now a Palestine!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Jun 2011 10:05

Brihaspati ji, how can you be so calm about India's unraveling position in J&K??? I've seen this several times now, you've taken it for granted that it will happen.....do you see anyway it won't happen? do you think it might wake up the Indian population? frankly, I'm unnerved that you are taking it for granted...

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 05 Jun 2011 10:38

The long term outlook for Israel is very bleak indeed. Demographics are a very powerful force that have already produced a population that is 25% Arab (not including the territories!). The whole reasons the Palestinians can draw this process out is this- why settle for two-state when you get get the whole fruit? I will be very surprised indeed if such a settlement is reached- in the past each time the two-state project has come close to fruition some spoiler has magically appeared at the last minute (e.g. Camp David efforts 11 years ago). Although if it comes to pass, the long-term situation might still be quite bad for Israel.

brihaspati wrote:So far every one of their moves to create and carve out an Islamic homeland within non-Muslim territories have been successful unless it directly affected the "big" five. India is not one of the big five - so why cannot they hope to repeat a Croatia, and now a Palestine!

In three of the big five there was no realistic nucleus for a Muslim homeland. But ironically despite 0 historical basis they have made huge inroads into the European duo!

In Russia they tried very mightily and failed. However once again many of the Islamic leaders are patient. They know that force failed to carve out a slice of the fruit. But why worry when again the whole fruit may slowly fall into their hands in the course of time.

China- that is the million dollar question going forward.

Meanwhile the Great Satan itself escapes this force in the domestic sphere- unless something goes very wrong. The advantage of having two oceans keep accumulating!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Jun 2011 17:19

devesh ji,
I do look forward to it. I have thought long and hard on why India failed to resist the Islamists the first time, and inevitably the only consistent logic that has come up is the previous long term development of an urban mercantile mentality elite salivating at the "prosperity" to be obtained from foreign trade, and hence a gradual shift towards an extreme of the "peace" at any cost, "tolerance for everything and anything" line while getting increasingly alienated from the remaining majority which they begin to hate as their birth culture. [kashmir's last Hindu rulers would be an ironic bur classic example].

Thus in the last two phases, what we have seen is a growth of a regime and ruling class, as well as supporting political infrastructure, which is self-sustaining to the very last bitter end where their stubborn protection of hostile forces under the illusion of "profits" brings about the emasculation of the inner resistance of the society and a consequent deep alienation and apathy between the rulers and the majority. This prevents the nation from fighting back in an effective manner. The very forces so far protected and nurtured by the rulers ultimately destroys these rulers - and the majority do not come to their rescue because they no longer see the rulers as their own.

I therefore see such a destruction of the ruling regime at the hands of the very forces it protected, as a necessary cleansing process, which allows the real majority to produce new and alternative leadership.

This is OT. Israel's case is different from India because they have been forced to form their cultural nationhood independent of their physical political control over territory. They have consolidated and made their theology part of their nationhood which gives them tremendous advantages. Israel's elite or ruling system has faced and produced exactly the same "mercantile mentality" forces from within as in India. The Roman period most famous "Jewish" historian Josephus for example would be a classic and uncanny mirror image of many similar mentalities in India. He was active in resisting Romans, and then deceptively got rid of fellow commanders when cornered by the Romans and began licking Roman boots.

Israel's advantage has been its relatively non-productive lands which always weakened its "mercantile mentality" classes, and a clear recognition of the ruthlessness and stubborn determination required to found a nation. India too will get there, step by step. It is that nation-building against implacable hostile forces like that of the mullahcracy or EJ-crusaders - both of which Israel faced before India - and a determination to slowly eliminate them, erase them first from within and then from neighbourhood - is the main lesson to be learnt. Radars of mil tech are just a side benefit.

Israel's current difficulties are its essentially resource crunched land, hence the various dhimmi voices and compromises. India has no such resource problems but is saddled with an inordinately large mercantile mentality class dripping with greed for "foreign trade" profits which they try to pass of as benefiting "all" but in reality gets stacked up in private collections - perhaps even outside the country. So reality of implementations will differ.

UBanerjee · Post by **UBanerjee** » 07 Jun 2011 07:46

X-posted from TSP thread:

Sadler wrote:That's about as succinct a summation of what drives porkistan and the asinine US policy I've ever read.

And you are also correct in that there's no way in hell you will be able to explain it to a US audience that has an attention span of an ADD-afflicted juvenile. Unless you can neatly package what you've said above as "judeo-christian"-derived parables, which can further be distilled into crisp headlines, your cause is sunk.

You are Jewish-American, are you not? India should be sold as Israel has been. Of course it is a harder job selling Hindus than Jews. Perhaps impossible, who knows? But then we don't need 400% backing like US to Israel. Truthfully we don't need backing at all; however any positive number would be better than negative!

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 07 Jun 2011 08:02

UBanerjee wrote:X-posted from TSP thread:
You are Jewish-American, are you not?

Yes, I wont say where i was born, but i spent some of my youth in Israel (about 7 yrs) and most of my adult life in the US.

UBanerjee wrote:X-posted from TSP thread:
India should be sold as Israel has been. Of course it is a harder job selling Hindus than Jews. Perhaps impossible, who knows?

Yes, and to my knowledge, Indians in the US are starting to mobilize politically. Plus, there is an intangible positive about Indians with the recent success of the Indian diaspora. Of course, seemingly unrelated events such as the Scrips Spelling Bee being won by an Indian-American for the fourth consecutive time does not hurt. So, Indians in recent yrs have gained an immense amount of prestige that needs to be converted to political gains. RE: porkis and public opinion about porkistan. Even porkis now unashamedly try to pass themselves off as Indians. Enough said there.

I would not categorize the "selling" job as impossible. I think it is eminently doable, despite the efforts of some self-hating Indians. In another decade or so, I believe Indian-American influence in the US can grow substantially. If it does, the those Indians in the US can serve to off-set and perhaps even reverse the porki tilt in the Senate and HR.

UBanerjee wrote:X-posted from TSP thread:
But then we don't need 400% backing like US to Israel. Truthfully we don't need backing at all; however any positive number would be better than negative!

Why not start a campaign in India itself to declare porkistan a terrorist state? One cannot really blame the US completely on this score when India itself hesitates to do the needful. Start taking tough decisions in India and the Indian lobbying efforts here will act as a force multiplier. I believe, although i cant seem to lay my hands on any published sources, that there are some informal contacts between the Indian and Israeli lobbies and some cooperation even on issues on a case-by-case basis. This will IMO be limited as long as Indian utterancs in public/international fora continues to side with the Arab point of view (justifiable in the case of India considering the number of Indians who work in the ME).

UBanerjee wrote:X-posted from TSP thread:
... we don't need 400% backing like US to Israel. Truthfully we don't need backing at all; however any positive number would be better than negative!

I quite agree with you. All the US has to do is to stop its baksheesh to the porkis and the porki economy will collapse quite rapidly. Therefore, much like you stated, its not really backing India that is needed as much as not backing porkistan.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 07 Jun 2011 09:39

Sadler wrote: Why not start a campaign in India itself to declare porkistan a terrorist state? One cannot really blame the US completely on this score when India itself hesitates to do the needful. Start taking tough decisions in India and the Indian lobbying efforts here will act as a force multiplier. I believe, although i cant seem to lay my hands on any published sources, that there are some informal contacts between the Indian and Israeli lobbies and some cooperation even on issues on a case-by-case basis. This will IMO be limited as long as Indian utterancs in public/international fora continues to side with the Arab point of view (justifiable in the case of India considering the number of Indians who work in the ME)..

The issue with these conniving machiavellian coward leftists of India is, these freaks keep blaming the US for helping Pakistan. They moan and bitch about how America is stabbing India and Waaaah, Waaaah they wail and ululate. But guess what, it is these same cowards who wants to play nice with Pakistan at every opportunity. What these cowards want is, they want to wear the halo around their heads and look innocent and be the "good guys" when looking at Pakistan's face while they expect America to be bad guy and bust Pakistan. And they are pissed that America would not do that. I have never seen a sneakier bunch than the morally pontificating lefties of India. Its in their cowardly nature that they have no honest bone in their body and don't even realize they are evil. And these lefties are the majority in India.

These dumbarses have never heard the phrase "Don't expect others to do for you what you are not willing to do for yourself"

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 08 Jun 2011 07:17

Deleted from Porki thread and pasted here where its' more appropriate.

SwamyG wrote: On several occasions you have expressed solidarity and sympathy with BRFites and Indians. Is it because most of us BRFites and Indians are Hindus? Or is it because India continues to witness terror sponsored by Pakistan?

When i say hindus, i should say clearly that I refer to not just the followers of hindu religion but all four of the faiths born in India. I use "hindus" as a convenient short form for followers of the religions born in India.

I have had a number of "hindu" friends over the years and that, more than anything else, has engendered a huge affinity for India. Yes, part of the sympathetic attitude is also as fellow victims of islam. But, mostly just being an indophile.

SwamyG wrote: Or is it because India continues to witness terror sponsored by Pakistan?

See above.

SwamyG wrote: It is but natural for Israel and Jews to court Indian support in their fight.

Just because something is "natural" does not mean it always happens. The US and India as the most powerful and most populous democracies should be natural allies. Hasn't happened yet, has it? It may well be natural for Israel and India to be friends, but both nations will have to work at it, and move the relationship simply beyond weapons purchases. I hope to see such a relationship in my lifetime.

SwamyG wrote: Neither Pakistan nor Israel has the right to exist in the current shape, size and form.

You are right. The state of Israel should be much larger

, encompassing all of the Gaza and the western bank with all moslems kicked out on their collective arses. We took in jews from all over the world, including hundreds of thousands from islamic countries. The land/assets they left behind are yet to be compensated for.

Seems like the continued existence of Israel as a vibrant nation really causes some serious heartburn not only among islamics but apparently to folks like you as well. Grab some pepto and deal with it. We simply are and will be.

And let us not lump the effing porkis with Israel

. There is simply no comparison and the facetious ones that call both as having being born due to "religion" dont just add up. The fact is that you have more in common with the porkis than we ever will. Please focus more on the security of your own nation, and the islamic nukes. You have nothing to fear from jewish ones.

SwamyG wrote: Christianity, Judaism and Islam has caused enough problems to the World. Leave us alone.

Really. What problems has the Judaic faith cause to you or the world at large? This on the face of it is a blatantly hateful statement, the significance of which is sought to be hidden by adding christianity and islam along with it. By lumping them together, you only prove your ignorance and perhaps worse.

SwamyG wrote: Leave us alone.

Gladly. Please remember that the next time you have to buy "Jewish" weapons, especially in the middle of a conflict with porkistan.

However, your fond wish is unlikely to be realized as there are enough Israelis and Indians who will drown out your asinine plea.

To my Indian friends, I hope you understand the rationale for using some harsh language above. Not meant or directed at all Indians. And no offence meant as well, except to the poster i responded to above.

PS. Shift your post above to the India-Israel thread and I'll move my response there as well. No need to mess this thread up.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 08 Jun 2011 07:18

SwamyG wrote: Sadler: When anybody, be it Pakistan sponsored terrorists or anybody, we don't look at the victims from a religious point of view. It does not matter if they were Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains or any other; they attacked India and Indians period. Our blood either boils are stays cool irrespective of who were injured or killed.

Am mighty glad to hear that. Looks like you either dont get it or do get it and have some axe to grind here that i cannot fathom.

My first post was an attempt to explain US apathy to incidents of terror against India. So, please direct your words to the US govt and not to me. Your post is intended to deliberately plant red herrings.

My first post
The US ignored terrorism emanating from Porkistan against India simply because it did not, and still does not, give a $hit if brown-skinned, "heathen and pagan savages who refuse to accept jesus as their savior" get blown up. Be these savages men, women, pregnant women, children, a wheel-chair-bound senior citizen or any one else.

The ignorance of the US was a "christian" one. And IT STILL IS. You can put any erudite spin on it, it does not matter. It is only after 9/11, when whites were slaughtered that the US has acted in some substantial way.

If today, the porki terrorists arrived at an agreement with the US to target only hindus, the US would vacate Af-Pak in a heart-beat. Terrorism is only terrorism if white and/or christian babies die. My take on it. FWIW etc.

My second Post
Not quite. I did not mean to say "Indians" and therefore did not write "Indians." An attack on a church in India with the slaughter of innocent indian christians (or the jewish equivalent) would evoke a far greater (emotive) response in the US than would the murder of an equal number of hindus. I will plead mea culpa to blunt talk. Even the LET trial in the US is because some of the victims were my fellow jews and americans. Were it not for these six (?)-odd victims, there would be no such trial in the US and news coverage of the Nov 26 carnage would disappear from US media and american conciousness without a trace.

I have no need to be self-important and therefore do not require BRF or anyone else to stroke my ego via "emotional tugging." I'd rather you accuse me of being full of $hit; i can take that. Please dont go reading between the lines where i am concerned; I have no use for subtlety. Peace.

Added later: Once the US withdraws from Afg and leaves the Porkis with the annual share of baksheesh, the re-direction of porki terrorists on to Indian soil will elicit nary a peep from the US. No matter how horrendous the terror attacks against India. It will be back to the pre-9/11 days with the US lumping India and porkistan together in a repugnant "equal-equal." Perhaps then I might get to say QED.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 08 Jun 2011 07:20

JE Menon wrote:>>Well these two States were created by the Europeans to solve their problems.

You mean the Jewish people did not want a state of Israel to be created where it is, but the Europeans forced it on them? History does not suggest that, nor does the vigorous defence of their land by the Israelis suggest that. And remember there was a mass killing of Jews in Europe which at least gave the Israelis a rationale for their own homeland - in an area which was in fact their homeland, and where Jews have lived continuously for millennia.

Pakistan, created by a combination of manic ambition, bigotry, commercial considerations, and big power hedging, is a different animal. The Muslims had no history of persecution in India, on the contrary. Pakistan, among other things, is a state created from the guilt accumulated through centuries of massacre and killing of non-Muslims, and apprehension that that same fate would be visited on them. They feared that what they would do, would be done to them. The opposite, in fact, has proven to be true. It is only they who do what they do. The Hindus of India do not think that way, not unless the provocation is extreme.

Thank you for stating what should be obvious to any student of history. This is not the first time i've something as idiotic as the europeans creating a homeland for jews in Israel. Unfortunately, wont be the last time either.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Jun 2011 07:49

many a times I told swamyg that he needs to visit israel to grasp the difference

israel has its faults and annoyances (and the right wing nuts are loonies) but its not comparable to the porkis or the Arabs