Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Sadler » 12 Jun 2011 04:37

sivab wrote: http://www.polishconsulate.com/about.htm
About 1000 or so of these were Jews.


Sivab: Thanks for the link. However, the webpage does not indicate any religious affiliation of the refugees.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 12 Jun 2011 07:20

sadler: you will have to refer to multiple scholarly books and articles to get a handle on this issue, a single book may not give complete picture. Here is what I know, there were about 1500 jews from europe as refugees in 1940s. About 1200 jewish refugees came to India from Burma. You can email polish consulate for exact number of polish jews. British government of India contrary to policy adapted in Britain had a restricted refugee policy for India. Nehru was instrumental in getting approval for jewish doctors to practice in India. Gandhi was a different story.

Here are couple of books, start with first one:
1. Jewish Communities of India: Identity in a Colonial Era by Joan Roland (Author teaches in NY)
2. Jewish Exile in India 1933-1945 by Anil Bhatti and Johannes H. Voigt (Collection of articles)
Last edited by sivab on 12 Jun 2011 07:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby vera_k » 12 Jun 2011 07:33

This is about the Polish refugees.

Little Warsaw Of Kathiawar

Discrepancies in the narratives, Bhattacharya says, may be explained by the fact that many batches of children and refugees arrived in India, including a batch of 200 Polish children who arrived by ship and a Jewish group that came to Bombay after being denied permission to land at various ports.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Sadler » 13 Jun 2011 00:19

sivab, vera-k: thank yo both for citing the requested references.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby skumar » 14 Jun 2011 13:40

SwamyG wrote:I studied in KV, hence CBSE syllabus. But none of my friends in my circle who went to TN government schools or private schools ever hated North Indians. And I studied in more than one KV in Madras itself. If I would extrapolate my small sample set and generalize, I would say "no sir, we were not taught to hate".
Our syllabus was similar to Armen's; except that not much of South Indian history. Lots of information about our country comes from ACK comics and reading books/internet.

Entirely agree. I do not know of any school in India where we are "taught to hate" unlike in TSP schools where hating hindu baniyas is a part of the syllabus. The response was to an earlier loose statement from another member and my understanding that in TN in past decades, there was some resistance to the dominance of Hindi.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 14 Jun 2011 14:53

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/visit ... el/803502/

Visits by Indian leaders were better under BJP: Israel

Lamenting the lack of high-level visits from India under the UPA government, senior officials at the Israeli foreign ministry told US diplomats that it was "better under the Bhartiya Janata Party government," according to a classified US diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Manny » 15 Jun 2011 06:18

arnab wrote:
Manny wrote:Israel was created FOR Jews because christian genocide of Jews. 6 million (almost 1/3rd) of them were burnt in an oven!

Only a leftist (I wish to say far worse things here) would try to equate them with Pakistanis.


Manny ji,

If this is true, then it begs the question Amejindehad asked - If israel was created to assuage european / christian guilt - why was it not carved out of Germany / Poland etc? Why should palestenians 'pay' for european crimes? The answer is because things are actually a little more complicated than that.



I thought about this a little more.

Tell me, Whose fault is it that a place in Europe was not carved for the Jews. The Jews were hardly in a position to dictate anything during and immediate after the WWII.

Anti Semitism was not just in Germany and Poland. It was all over the christian world. Europe and even the United States. Jews were hated by the Christians for 2000 years. So why would the liberal lefties expect the Christians of the United States and Christians of Europe to carve out a place from Europe for the Jews?

So the Q I have is, why are the lefties of the world pissing on the Jews for the fact, that the Christians of Europe and Americans for not carving out Europe for the Jews?

They may as well have carved out of the United States or Canada (another bastion of the Lefties and Christians) for the Jews as well.

The Jews were so powerless, they actually considered buying land in Congo (Africa). Thats right. They actually considered middle of Africa for Israel. Its just that they have a historical connection to Jerusalem they decided eventually to procure land from the Arabs. The Arabs sold them the most useless desert to the Jews.

So, the Muslims Arabs were 100 times better than the Christians for even considering the possibility of Jews living close by. That's for sure! But its no surprise, In the 2000 years, It was not Muslims who persecuted the Jews...It was the God forsaken Christians of Europe.

So now, Why are desi Lefties mad at Jews for procuring land in Israel and not at the Christians of Europe and the Americas for not carving out Europe for the Jews?

This is like blaming the rape victim for the rape. So why are the lefties so clueless and are unable to "intellectualize" and fight for the underdog instead always end up on the side of the perpetrators?

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby arnab » 15 Jun 2011 07:47

Manny wrote:I thought about this a little more.

Tell me, Whose fault is it that a place in Europe was not carved for the Jews. The Jews were hardly in a position to dictate anything during and immediate after the WWII.

Anti Semitism was not just in Germany and Poland. It was all over the christian world. Europe and even the United States. Jews were hated by the Christians for 2000 years. So why would the liberal lefties expect the Christians of the United States and Christians of Europe to carve out a place from Europe for the Jews?

So the Q I have is, why are the lefties of the world pissing on the Jews for the fact, that the Christians of Europe and Americans for not carving out Europe for the Jews?



Manny ji,

I'm not sure what exactly your point is . You seem to be arguing that Christians 'started' anti-semitism much before muslims did. Well sure they did. Chronologically christianity does predate islam. Prior to that Romans hated the jews. So what else is new?

Re 'lefties pissing on jews' - I'm not sure what your argument is. Are they denying the holocaust? or the right of israel to exist? Or should israel be given the right to pursue any policy it wishes as part of a global collective holocaust guilt?

Well, In India - the british killed more than 3 million indians in India in a deliberately manufactured famine in one year. Hitler managed to kill 6 million jews in Europe over a period of 5 odd years. So our holocaust is far more pervasive.

So jews did not have anywhere to go. But they had huge amounts of capital. The unintended consequence of not allowing jews to possess land, allowed them to become bankers and financiers. They could use these funds to buy land from arabs and even though this was not enough to create a country, but it was a start. OTOH think of the native americans and aboriginals in australia who were slaughtered and hounded out of their own homes. In Australia the indigenous people had to suffer the indignity of being classified as 'fauna' in official statistics as late as the 1960s.

So believe me there are no depths to plumb in 'man's inhumanity towards man'.

So yes - Israel has the right to exist where it does. Peace in ME can start when the Arab world and their proxies accept israel's right to exist and an independent state of palestine is established. One does not have to bring in 'holocaust' into this discussion at all. Israel would still have a right to exist where it is even if there had been no holocaust. The holocaust accelerated the process of establishing Israel. Thats all.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 15 Jun 2011 07:57

comparatively speaking, how severe was Roman hatred of Jews compared to Christian and Islamic hatred? my impression is that Romans were happy to leave the Jews alone as long as they didn't do anything that the Romans perceived as a threat to their politico-social dominance.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby brihaspati » 15 Jun 2011 08:02

Sorry! Non-persecution of Jews at the hands of Muslims is a blatant lie and myth perpetrated by Leftists and apologists of Islam. The very founding of Islam went ahead against Jews and the Qureysh of Mecca, on a murderous campaign - and is openly, and proudly acknowledged repeatedly in the "strong" Shahi Hadiths, as well as the early biographies of the prophet of Islam.The difference in treatment of the Qureysh and the Jews of Yathrib [later renamed Medina after the genocidal cleansing of the Jews who had originally given shelter to Muhammad and his followers] - was that while most of the Meccans were "spared" with the exception of a few executed on the day of "re-entry" - especially "poets/bards" including some women who had apparently lampooned Muhammad before, the Jewish settlements were deliberately ethnically cleansed. Typically populations were expelled after being forced to leave behind all valuables and herd animals, or post-puberty men were culled, male children converted, and females enslaved, sold or taken into "right hand possession" [an Arabic euphemism for "slaves" captured in war or otherwise]. [ref - Sirat of Ibn Ishaq, and Shahi Bukhari].

The violence never really stopped. There have been many studies of continued violence under successive Islamic regimes in the ME and near East or Palestine. Most of these authors are carefully avoided in current academic "references" so that image of oh-so-peaceful-and tolerant religion is not tarnished - just two among many would be the turn of the 20th century Margoulis [not the interestingly consistent pro-Islamic position of Eric or Dan] and late 20th century Bat Yor.

It is more a politico-religious undercurrent, bordering on anti-Semitism within the European undercurrents [somehow the "remarkably" progressive Marxists almost all fail to be sympathetic towards the Jews] - that sees political advantage in wiping out the history of Islamic anti-Semitism and Islams roots in a genocidic ethnic cleansing of the Jewish settlements in north Arabia and Palestine, because then justifying the modern Palestine state, and Islamist claims on the territories of modern Israel becomes easier to propagate.

We know the ideological strategy. We have seen exactly the same process initiated by exactly the same sources, on the subcontinent, to carve out territories and create permanent conflicts relying on the mullahcracy's propensity for dreaming of global domination and erasure of the non-Muslim.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby arnab » 15 Jun 2011 08:05

devesh wrote:comparatively speaking, how severe was Roman hatred of Jews compared to Christian and Islamic hatred? my impression is that Romans were happy to leave the Jews alone as long as they didn't do anything that the Romans perceived as a threat to their politico-social dominance.


Well haven't read a lot in this area but wasn't Caligula vehemently against the jews? And it was Hadrian who changed the name of Judea to Palestine after crushing the jewish revolt. Jews also had to pay a 'jewish tax' to worship their god in the time of the Romans.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby brihaspati » 15 Jun 2011 08:14

Its funny to ask the Jews to ask for a homeland in Europe, on the argument that they lived there. They source their spiritual and cultural nationhood on the territories around Jerusalem and the Levant. They were doing it at least from the time when Rome was not yet a pan-Mediterranean power. Ironically "Palestine" did not exist until Romans began to call a part of the Levant by the Latin form of it. So in that sense even the "Palestine" is an European construct, while at least Israel is the name from a distinctly and consciously non-European language.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby ManishH » 15 Jun 2011 13:17

AFAIK, earliest mention of "Palestinian" people is in the Egyptian records ca 1190 BC calling them Peleset.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/sea_peoples.htm

It's ironic how Islamists of Arabia and Iran have suceeded in misguiding today's Palestinians into needless conflict with Israel. A conflict which only hurts the Palestinians most, followed by Jews; while the instigators - the ayatollahs etc lead lives of luxury. Most of the Palestinians are descendents of people who practiced Jewish or Christian faith before being converted to Islam.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby skumar » 16 Jun 2011 09:06

UBanerjee wrote:The upshot of all of this is that India should support those nations and civilizations which share interests and values with it and Israel is such a nation.

There is small profit and much idiocy in denying such bonds because of sanctimonious puffery. Perhaps we might find time to lecture the rest of the world as well most of which is far less compatible with ourselves.


It would help if you referred to the entire thread before making comments.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Jun 2011 19:29

Israel to "deliver the (military) goods" to China! THis will annoy the US no end and have serious consequences for India if the Israelis sell China cutting edge weaponry and systems.India will then have to think twice before relying so heavily upon Israel in the future.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 10317.html

Israeli defense minister pledges closer ties with China's military10:35, June 15, 2011

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak speaks at a press conference held in the Embassy of Israel in Beijing on June 15. (Chen Lele/People's Daily Online)

Israel expects to consolidate partnership with China's military as well as to promote cooperation in technology and economy, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said during a press conference held in the Israeli Embassy in Beijing on June 14.

Barak's last visit to China was 17 years ago as Israel's chief of general staff. He said what impressed him most is that there has been a huge leap forward in everything he could see in Beijing.

Barak arrived in Beijing for meetings with senior officials, including Gen. Liang Guanglie, the Chinese minister of defense; Gen. Chen Bingde, chief of the general staff of the People's Liberation Army, and Vice Premier Li Keqiang.

"In all of our meetings, we looked for ways with people in uniforms to consolidate the relationship between our defense establishments with a variety of common interests, from fighting terrorism to exchanging visits of soldiers and officers. I invited both the defense minister and chief of general staff to visit Israel," he said.

In addition to raising military-to-military relations to a new level, Barak also expressed his wish to enhance the historical friendship between the two peoples and to further broaden cooperation in diverse areas, such as in high technology, clean technology, agriculture and trade.

"We are ready to share our knowledge with your gifted scientists, engineers and businessmen to find ways to make business. Israel is too small, and it never has enough market for our technology," he said. "We came here to consolidate our partnership with the Chinese PLA but also to expose to the Chinese people our openness to join hands and make the world, including China and Israel, a little bit better to live in."

Ehud Barak is an Israeli politician who served as Prime Minister from 1999 until 2001. He was leader of the Labor Party until January 2011 and holds the posts of Minister of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister in Benjamin Netanyahu's government. He served as an officer in the Israel Defense Forces. Following a highly decorated career, he was appointed chief of general staff in 1991, serving until 1995.

By Zheng Qingting, People's Daily Online


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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 17 Jun 2011 03:01

Phalcons were first offered to PRC right? US vetoed it as it contained US tech. Israel was forced to pay $350m to PRC. The Israeli's have also been cooperating in Satellite imaging stuff, so PRC mili intel types do drop in to Tel Aviv. If Beijing misbehaves, Israeli's oipen contacts with Taipei. Beijing boast of links to Hamas.

Incidentally both our strategic agreements took off in 93, when India and PRC were seeking to upgrasde the Migs as an alternative to Soviets who were at teh time in a mess.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby brihaspati » 17 Jun 2011 03:49

"Peleset" was the name given to an invading tribe among the vague collection of "sea-peoples". The latest archeological arguments are increasingly favouring a Cypriot origin and of a subculture of the Minoan. These people began to raid coastal Egypt, lower Nile delta and using this as the base expanded into current Palestine. This would make sense of the Israelites coming into conflict with them along the southern reaches of the territory roamed by Israeli tribes. The "Philistines" were more likely part of the marine culture that had based itself on the Mediterranean large islands and as with most ancient maritime cultures only dependent on sea-trade - perhaps also generated raiding components that harassed coastal population during times of stress.

This literature is not that much highlighted because of obvious political legitimacy problems. The sons-of-the-soil become raiders and violent immigrants or colonizers then.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 17 Jun 2011 05:59

in a way if Israel makes overtures to PRC, it will light a fire under India's military planners' bottoms. no offense intended. but I think we get too sentimental in dealing with foreign countries. any country will do what it needs to do. Israel selling military tech to PRC will finally convince Indian policy makers and planners that there is no such thing as "deep" friendship. there can be "deep" partnership, but usually, except for exceptional circumstances, there are no "deep" friendships over a long period of time. overall, a good stimulus to boost local investment in critical tech.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby skumar » 17 Jun 2011 11:29


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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Hitesh » 17 Jun 2011 19:07

^^^ uh I would be careful about citing numbers from the above website. A further examination would reveal that the source of all the numbers and research comes from the book, "MARCH OF THE TITANS -A HISTORY OF THE WHITE RACE" Ostara Publications, 1999 and I clicked on that url and it lead me to a website that is associated with the neonazi groups.

So I wouldn't hold my breath over these "numbers." The source of these numbers is not credible.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby skumar » 18 Jun 2011 14:17

The above has not been cited as definitive proof of anything but merely to demonstrate that doubt exists, in large measure.

While it may have come from "neo-Nazi" sources, it states public facts that require repudiation.

For example, one of the members previously stated that the Holocaust was special because the Jews were so helpless that they could not avoid being massacred. That applies to other massacres and peoples as well, no? Would any people willingly allow themselves to be massacred if they were not helpless? In 1933, the Jews declared war on Germany soon after Hitler came to power, before many of the policies against Jews were enacted in Germany and could have caused a hardening of stands. Does that suggest a benign powerless people? This is a publicly available fact and received much publicity in news media around the world.

The 6 million number is now considered a definite exaggeration, the extent of which is not allowed to be determined. The Auschwitz plaque said 4 million till 1989 and changed to 1.5 million since - a public fact. The Anne Frank diary has been proven to be a hoax. The actual mechanics of the massacres have never been explained fully. The Auschwitz we see today is a reconstruction. If millions were killed, where are the millions of teeth and bone fragments?

What gets my goat (?) is the comparison between massacres, the assertion to special status, which has already caused so much pain around the world every time.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby UBanerjee » 18 Jun 2011 17:42

Skumar, your post reads like the simple and nonsensical CT posts of ALL kinds. I have noticed ALL CT posts read like yours. Whether its Loose Change or JFK assassination :roll:

And frankly your casual dismissal of criticism of "neo-Nazi sources", is strange and unflattering. You want to start quoting Paki "facts" about what happens/happened in Kashmir and East Pakistan? Hmm, how about Ms. Bose's recent book denying the 1971 genocide ("100,000 only died, blame goes to both sides!") Going to tell us its "public facts that require repudiation"? Oh, but that is different onlee, Pakis are liars onlee. Not like those upstanding White Power types.
Last edited by UBanerjee on 18 Jun 2011 17:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Jun 2011 17:43

@skumar^^^: Careful, the "where are the millions of ..." etc and the source you've cited puts you in the august company of one Mahmoud Ahmedinejad. Not the company you want to keep.

There are many sources to verify the Holocaust. Just Google.

I would ask the mods to stop this line of 'inquiry'. Not something we want BRF to be associated with.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 18 Jun 2011 19:36

skumar ji,

The Jewish Holocaust was a holocaust. Every people have their own personal historical pain, and as such emphasize their own holocaust. Everybody is free to highlight one's own tragedy. For that there is no need to diminish the tragedy of another people.

There has been sufficient inquiry into the Jewish Holocaust. Do you have a personal reason to inquire its veracity and scope? If you don't have and are simply agitated by some other aspect, then it would be better to rethink your line of inquiry and restate your conundrum independent of the Jewish Holocaust. If you have some personal reason, then IMO, BRF would not wish to share the stage with Holocaust-Deniers!

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Manny » 18 Jun 2011 19:52

nevermind.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 18 Jun 2011 20:54

skumar wrote:The above has not been cited as definitive proof of anything but merely to demonstrate that doubt exists, in large measure.

While it may have come from "neo-Nazi" sources, it states public facts that require repudiation.

For example, one of the members previously stated that the Holocaust was special because the Jews were so helpless that they could not avoid being massacred. That applies to other massacres and peoples as well, no? Would any people willingly allow themselves to be massacred if they were not helpless? In 1933, the Jews declared war on Germany soon after Hitler came to power, before many of the policies against Jews were enacted in Germany and could have caused a hardening of stands. Does that suggest a benign powerless people? This is a publicly available fact and received much publicity in news media around the world.

The 6 million number is now considered a definite exaggeration, the extent of which is not allowed to be determined. The Auschwitz plaque said 4 million till 1989 and changed to 1.5 million since - a public fact. The Anne Frank diary has been proven to be a hoax. The actual mechanics of the massacres have never been explained fully. The Auschwitz we see today is a reconstruction. If millions were killed, where are the millions of teeth and bone fragments?

What gets my goat (?) is the comparison between massacres, the assertion to special status, which has already caused so much pain around the world every time.


What absolute and total rubbish

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 18 Jun 2011 21:32

Philip wrote:Both the Jews and Palestinians have lived in Palestine/Israel from time immemorial.A two-nation solution is th only option with both of them needing to agree upon the boundaries.For this they need otuside help to bring them closer to agreement.Easier said than done!


Talk about misguided history. Philip, the population of Jews before the so called "British mandate" and after the British mandate expired post WWII has to be compared, before this illusion that both Jews and Palestinians have lived in the holy land since time immemorial will be shattered.

In fact the victors of WWII did not create a homeland for European Jewry in Europe, but sought to create one in a predominantly Arab land. They sought to create so called facts on ground, on the basis of crap beliefs like "A land without people for people without land"

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Sadler » 18 Jun 2011 22:11

skumar wrote: The above has not been cited as definitive proof of anything but merely to demonstrate that doubt exists, in large measure.


You are correct. Doubts do exist: among moslems, neo-nazis and even some "christians." Congratulations, for you have now joined their exalted ranks. Jeez, never thought i'd see the day on BRF where neo-nazi sites would be cited as authoratative sources.

skumar wrote: .............. states public facts that require repudiation.

Sure. Post the Protocols of the Elders of Zion here as one such public document, call it a "fact" and lets have at it. Or is the fact that it does come from neo-nazi sources not repudiation enough?

skumar wrote: For example, one of the members previously stated that the Holocaust was special because the Jews were so helpless that they could not avoid being massacred. That applies to other massacres and peoples as well, no? Would any people willingly allow themselves to be massacred if they were not helpless?

Yes, I am sure that the genocide of hindus in bangaldesh and jews in the Holocaust or armenians at the hands of the turks were all massacres that deserve equal condemnation. Yet your own govt or society has allowed the facts surrounding the bangaldesh genocide of hindus to wither from memory to the point where the porkis now challenge that a genocide even happened.

We jews did not allow it to fade from memory precisely to counter people like you. Had it not been for jewish efforts for the past 60+ yrs to keep the facts surrounding the holocaust in the public domain and eye, today i would be hard pressed to counter the filth that you are trying to disseminate.

skumar wrote:........... In 1933, the Jews declared war on Germany soon after Hitler came to power, before many of the policies against Jews were enacted in Germany and could have caused a hardening of stands. Does that suggest a benign powerless people? This is a publicly available fact and received much publicity in news media around the world.

I think you've pretty much shown at least your intellectual capacity (or lack thereof) at the very least if not your own moral character here. The Jews did not declare war on Germany. Had they even wished to do so, they would not have been able to do it. While Hitler's views were well known, most dismissed him and his views as yet another drop in the ocean of anti-semitism that pervaded Europe. A few yrs later, except for a sagacious few, they were proven wrong and had to pay for it with their lives.


skumar wrote: The 6 million number is now considered a definite exaggeration, the extent of which is not allowed to be determined. The Auschwitz plaque said 4 million till 1989 and changed to 1.5 million since - a public fact. The Anne Frank diary has been proven to be a hoax. The actual mechanics of the massacres have never been explained fully. The Auschwitz we see today is a reconstruction. If millions were killed, where are the millions of teeth and bone fragments?

Never thought i'd see such filth on BRF. Luckily for me an unluckily for you, there are enough Indians in the world and more than enough on BRF who are not buying whatever it is that you are trying to peddle.

Note that I have not even bothered refuting the last bit of your BS. No use arguing against the rantings of a freakin moron who gets his "facts" from neo-nazi websites.
Last edited by Sadler on 19 Jun 2011 01:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Sadler » 18 Jun 2011 22:14

UBanerjee wrote:Skumar, your post reads like the simple and nonsensical CT posts of ALL kinds. I have noticed ALL CT posts read like yours. Whether its Loose Change or JFK assassination :roll:

And frankly your casual dismissal of criticism of "neo-Nazi sources", is strange and unflattering. You want to start quoting Paki "facts" about what happens/happened in Kashmir and East Pakistan? Hmm, how about Ms. Bose's recent book denying the 1971 genocide ("100,000 only died, blame goes to both sides!") Going to tell us its "public facts that require repudiation"? Oh, but that is different onlee, Pakis are liars onlee. Not like those upstanding White Power types.

And that is what gets my "goat." That those very folks who disdain such "paki facts" are more than willing to take at face value "neo-nazi facts."

Thank you UBanerjee for stating the obvious. And to others on this thread as well. What say we ignore these posts and stick to the purpose of this thread, which is to discuss India-Israel relations.

Christopher Sidor
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 19 Jun 2011 00:04

^^^^
It is frighting, how history is sought to be perverted. "Jews declared war on Germany." What bull.
You may say that the numbers of Jews killed by the nazis might of be less.
But Skumar, please answer my one question, how many people have to be gassed in gas chambers, before it becomes a genocide and unacceptable? Can you please give us a number so that we can all agree?

Let us for a minute assume that among the people killed in gas chambers only 10% were Jews rest were non Jews. Let us assume that only 10% of all the people killed by extermination squads in eastern Europe were Jews, rest were non-Jews. Then also the crimes of the Nazis monsters against Jews are not be over looked. They killed hapless and unarmed people. People who had done no harm to them.

Let me clarify the holocaust was not an exclusive Jewish affair. And what happened in the concentration camps of Eastern Europe cannot be used to justify a Jewish state in Palestine.

But equally what cannot be denied is the horrors that the Jews faced under the hands of Nazis. It was truly a crime against humanity. So please SKumar, stop glorifying or justifying loathsome Nazis. They were the scum of this planet and they are dead and long gone. I thank god for that.

Mahendra
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Mahendra » 19 Jun 2011 01:26

If millions were killed, where are the millions of teeth and bone fragments?


They have been used by dhongi Baba Ramdev to make tooth-paste, this was told to me by Brinda Karat herself when I met her during a holocaust denial conference in Tehran. Not only is the holocaust a figment of imagination, the truth of the matter is that Jews don't exist!
It is a different matter altogether that somehow the non existent Jews declared war on Germany :rotfl:
Astagfirullah, even Chailman Mao wouldn't spout such rubbish.

Holocaust denial is a crime in Europe and rightly so, one can't just brush off the painful death of millions as propagandoo.

You sir qualify for the Hilal e Arabia award for investigative journalism e lefti(maoist). Take your head out of your musharaff and think!

I hope the admins have zero tolerance towards holocaust denial

Surya
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 19 Jun 2011 01:40

Any person who has a doubt of the holocaust needs to visit

Dachau
Auschwitz

holocaust museum in washington
holocaust museum in Jerusalem


and if you still are not moved - you are a paki - nothing more nothing less

admins could you please clean up this nonsense

Karna_A
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Karna_A » 19 Jun 2011 01:53

Philip wrote:Both the Jews and Palestinians have lived in Palestine/Israel from time immemorial.A two-nation solution is th only option with both of them needing to agree upon the boundaries.For this they need otuside help to bring them closer to agreement.Easier said than done!


Palestinians already have Jordan as their country, but Jews do not have any other country apart from Israel.
http://christianactionforisrael.org/isr ... ordan.html

Jews are just asking for a small sliver of defensible land for jews which they never had.
Palestinians already have Jordan, Muslims have the whole of middle east.

To come to think of it, Jews should be demanding the whole of middle east since they were the original inhabitants before 7th century and were made stateless refugees for 13 centuries, just like Roma people(e.g. Charlie Chaplin) were who were originally Indians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
Last edited by Karna_A on 19 Jun 2011 02:21, edited 1 time in total.

Cosmo_R
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Jun 2011 02:01

Surya wrote:Any person who has a doubt of the holocaust needs to visit

Dachau
Auschwitz

holocaust museum in washington
holocaust museum in Jerusalem


and if you still are not moved - you are a paki - nothing more nothing less

admins could you please clean up this nonsense


I was taken by my Dad to see Auschwitz in 1965. I do remember being told "1mm people died here, thousands at any one time were imprisoned here, and now there are maybe a few farm animals..." The 'sleeping bunks' made of stone had 18" clearance and stacked up six bunks high.

But what remains in my memory is that had I not been told what the place was, I would have thought it was a run down farmhouse of some sort. What I learned was how easy it is to bury the truth.

brihaspati
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby brihaspati » 19 Jun 2011 03:07

"Palestinian" as in a tightly knit ethnicity based on descent, and inhabiting the claimed territory for millenia is a very tall claim. A thorough literature search on this issue - the thorny question of origins of the "modern" "Palestinians", will lead one through archaeological and other current conclusions as to a more "western" or central Mediterranean insular/maritime trade centre origins. The debate now is more about whether it was Cypriot or Cretan/Minoan.

They are also now thought to be part of a possibly violent immigration/raids in a time of distress for the islanders, into the coastal trading settlements or kingdoms they originally traded with or perhaps even had population segments. Think of Arabs settled along coastal western India during and immediately before the Islamist invasions.

They could very well have been part of the "Sea-peoples" who for more than a century invaded and wrested control of the Nile delta from the traditional Pharaonic system [which became confined into the more southern-central part, and ultimately threw back the "sea-people" under the legendary female warrior founder of the 18th dynasty]. It is about the same time after being pushed out of Egypt that they come into conflict with the Israelite tribes who roamed the southern extent of the Levant. The coastal predominance of the "Palestinians" does seem consistent with this more west-central Mediterranean origin theory, and make them as much nomadic/non-bhumiputra/invaders as [and perhaps more than] the "Haberu"s.

Everyone seems to have invaded/overrun/settled by force territories that they now claim as birthright from millenia in that region. Roman patricians claimed descent from Trojans quite openly - but think of kicking the "Roman" descendants in Italy now, Pakis claims that all their golden ancestors came from Persia and Arabia - but you cannot kick them out, Saxons and Danes came into Brit isles and you can support that even by genetics - think of kicking the populations above the virtual Newcastle-mid-England "Viking" axis, the Palestinians came into the Levant after losing homelands in central Mediterranean islands and raided coastal cities or settlements and put up around Eastern Med - - think kicking them out, nah- cannot do that - thats fascistic/Hitlerian. Only kicking out Israelites from the Levant, or "Aryan-Hindus" from Muslim dominated regions of the subcontinent - that becomes legitimate, because only these two populations were the only true immigrants of the world. All others are bhumiputras from millenia.

KLNMurthy
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 19 Jun 2011 06:28

vera_k wrote:This is about the Polish refugees.

Little Warsaw Of Kathiawar

Discrepancies in the narratives, Bhattacharya says, may be explained by the fact that many batches of children and refugees arrived in India, including a batch of 200 Polish children who arrived by ship and a Jewish group that came to Bombay after being denied permission to land at various ports.

I read the story with tears in my eyes. This is the essence of SDREness, never turning away the saranaarthi and never making a big song and dance about it.

skumar
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby skumar » 20 Jun 2011 09:00

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^^
It is frighting, how history is sought to be perverted. "Jews declared war on Germany." What bull.
You may say that the numbers of Jews killed by the nazis might of be less.
But Skumar, please answer my one question, how many people have to be gassed in gas chambers, before it becomes a genocide and unacceptable? Can you please give us a number so that we can all agree?

Let us for a minute assume that among the people killed in gas chambers only 10% were Jews rest were non Jews. Let us assume that only 10% of all the people killed by extermination squads in eastern Europe were Jews, rest were non-Jews. Then also the crimes of the Nazis monsters against Jews are not be over looked. They killed hapless and unarmed people. People who had done no harm to them.

Let me clarify the holocaust was not an exclusive Jewish affair. And what happened in the concentration camps of Eastern Europe cannot be used to justify a Jewish state in Palestine.

But equally what cannot be denied is the horrors that the Jews faced under the hands of Nazis. It was truly a crime against humanity. So please SKumar, stop glorifying or justifying loathsome Nazis. They were the scum of this planet and they are dead and long gone. I thank god for that.


RajeshA wrote:skumar ji,

The Jewish Holocaust was a holocaust. Every people have their own personal historical pain, and as such emphasize their own holocaust. Everybody is free to highlight one's own tragedy. For that there is no need to diminish the tragedy of another people.

There has been sufficient inquiry into the Jewish Holocaust. Do you have a personal reason to inquire its veracity and scope? If you don't have and are simply agitated by some other aspect, then it would be better to rethink your line of inquiry and restate your conundrum independent of the Jewish Holocaust. If you have some personal reason, then IMO, BRF would not wish to share the stage with Holocaust-Deniers!


Thanks for a more sober response unlike others where there is much venom and not much substance.

Please read my posts again. Have I denied the Holocaust ever? Where have I glorified the Nazis? Let me be categorical and state once again that the deaths of large numbers of Jews before & during WW2 was a genocide and there is no denying the horrors faced by them.

1. I was agitated at the special status sought to be conferred upon this massacre. It is no different from any other in history. Indeed as someone charged, we Indians are guilty of carefully planning to erase the memories of our own "holocausts". I am asserting that you cannot compare human pain / suffering.
2. I expressed doubt on the 6 million number while I also agree that the monstrosity of the act would not change even if the number were actually ten times less (or a hundred or a thousand). Keep aside the "neo-nazi" (or white supremacist) sources, which serious academic source tells us today that the number is correct and explains it?

I am aware that this issue deviates from the thread and will not comment on this topic on this thread, even if there are asinine personal flame posts. If anyone wishes to do so, I am willing to take it to another thread; however, I am also certain now that the need to dismiss dissent (by ridicule, attempting to ostracize - reminds of something?) is more than the need to reason.

Gerard
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Gerard » 01 Jul 2011 05:06

With its oil treasure, Israel gets a shield from tyranny
he London-based World Energy Council says Israel’s Shfela Basin, a half-hour drive south of Jerusalem, holds 250 billion barrels of recoverable shale oil, possibly making the energy-vulnerable country (as expressed by The Wall Street Journal) “the world’s newest energy giant.” With reserves of 260 billion barrels, Saudi Arabia would remain the world’s No. 1 oil country – though not, perhaps, for long. Howard Jonas, CEO of U.S.-based IDT Corp., the company that owns the Shfela Basin concession, says there is much more oil under Israel than under Saudi Arabia: Perhaps, he says, twice as much.

ranjbe
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby ranjbe » 01 Jul 2011 05:15

Gerard wrote:With its oil treasure, Israel gets a shield from tyranny
he London-based World Energy Council says Israel’s Shfela Basin, a half-hour drive south of Jerusalem, holds 250 billion barrels of recoverable shale oil, possibly making the energy-vulnerable country (as expressed by The Wall Street Journal) “the world’s newest energy giant.” With reserves of 260 billion barrels, Saudi Arabia would remain the world’s No. 1 oil country – though not, perhaps, for long. Howard Jonas, CEO of U.S.-based IDT Corp., the company that owns the Shfela Basin concession, says there is much more oil under Israel than under Saudi Arabia: Perhaps, he says, twice as much.

Shale oil/gas has its own environmental problems as shown in Canada and US, and production costs are triple Saudi oil (which is less than $20 a barrel). However, it is worth it to break the Arab/OPEC stranglehold on this commodity. Knowing Israel, they will invent new and more cost-effective methods to address some of these issues, and a nice side benefit would be that India could tap into these innovations. India is also estimated to have huge on-shore shale gas deposits.

Prem
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 11 Jul 2011 09:16

http://israelity.com/2011/07/10/nostalg ... ian-movie/
Nostalgia Sunday – Indian Movie
You might think that Israelis view Indian cinema as a form of exotica but you would be wrong. Israelis are long-time lovers of Indian movies. In the the 60s, 70s and on through the 80s, a high percentage of the movies shown in Israeli cinemas were in Arabic,Turkish or Hindi – particularly in towns whose populations originated in the Middle East and India.

According to a 2005 article about Israeli fans of Bollywood from the Indo-Asian News Service (IANS), “A majority of the [70,000] Indian Jews here are Bene Israelis, who hail from Maharashtra. Then there are the Cochin Jews, the Kutchi Jews, the Baghdadi Jews and the recently discovered Bene Menashe, Jews from Mizoram and Manipur in northeastern India, believed to be descendants of one of the lost tribes of Israel.” They are, the author says, “a community whose religion brought them to the Promised Land, but whose hearts still throb to Bollywood beats.” To serve this audience, there are two Indian channels available today: one for movies, the other for soap operas. Its this sort of fare that inspired Pop star Dana International when she paid homage to the genre in her 2009 duet with Idan Yaniv, “Seret Hodi” (Indian Movie

Watch the Video :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVhuoMWu ... r_embedded


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