Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4539
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Feb 2014 00:06

In fact the Liberals are heading out of Israel leaving it to the Haredi. They are deeply ashamed of the latter. But unlike Indians they do not air their laundry in public.

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2971
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 23 Feb 2014 01:28

raj.devan wrote:These are the Ashkenazi Jews who, as you have pointed out, are dominant in business, industry and technology, and who I had the most interaction with. By virtue of their influence on government, as well as their presence in government, they are the ones who define what Israeli governmental policy is to a great extent and are the group who direct Israel's trade and political relations with the rest of the world. In this sense, apart from the strong survivalist mentality that Israel displays in the face of its enemies, this is for all political purposes no different from any European nation.


Not really. The Russian Jews are giving the Ashkenazi a run for their money, in both education and in research.. In fact, the Technion has Russian as de facto language - about a quarter to a third of the university, especially at graduate level is Russian. However, it is true that in industry and trade, the Ashkenzais dominate. It is no exaggeration to say that the Russians are competing very strongly with the Ashkenazi. Israel Beitenu is the party favoured by Russian Jews and it is doing very well, so they are getting their foot inside government as well. From the days of the Irgun (which split off from the Hagannah), the Israeli Right has been more and more dominated by Russians. Even Menachem Begin was from Russia. Not that all Russian Jews were Right - for instance, Golda Meir was also Russian and she was Leftist.

The relatively fewer Sephardi Jews I interacted with did show marked religious and relatively subtle cultural differences, but did not seem to be so different in the political sense from the Ashkenazis.


Try interacting with the Mizrahis. You will find very significant differences.

While Israel's political situation in the Middle east is based on what is primarily a religious divide, I think it is too simplistic to draw such a strong parallel between their cultural/religious outlook and their political outlook. While Judaism may have an inherent mistrust against Islam and Christianity, Israelis do not find this so important a factor when it comes to determining something completely unrelated such as international diplomatic relations. In other words, while they are still a state based on a common religion, they still keep their religious identity in a separate box from their political identity at least as far as their foreign policy is concerned.


Israel even cooperates with Saudi Arabia when it comes to taking on Iran. India cooperates with Iran, and US. Such cooperation is based on realpolitik, not trust, and only lasts for very short periods. But scratch just beneath the surface, and you will find the mistrust of Europe. Two millenia of religious persecution tends to make Jews more than a little wary. And the sentiment is reciprocated by Europe. Scratch beneath most Europeans, and you will find antisemitism alive and kicking. Western Europeans are a bit sophisticated and will say they are merely criticising Israel, and East Europeans will be a bit less polished and say nasty things about the Jew.

If the absence of anti-Semitism was the main factor to distinguish a country that would be an Israeli ally in the long term, then India with its large and rather active Muslim population would be disqualified.


Two different points here about the statement.
1) Indian Muslim antisemitism towards Jews is very recent. In fact, Jews and Muslims both lived peacefully in Cochin for well over a thousand years.

2) And when people speak of India in Israel, they always think of the Hindu majority. The Muslim Arab minority in Israel has considerable contempt for the Indians (just talk to them about Pakistan, or Kashmir, and you will see what I mean). When we speak of Israel, do we think of the Muslim minority of Israel? By the way, in percentage terms, Muslim share of Israeli population is higher than Muslim share of Indian population.

The sympathy for India, as I see it, purely stems from the common enemy that both countries face and the respect that Israel has for anyone who has to face the same danger. And then again, the enemy here is perceived more as political force than a religious one.


While it is true to a large extent, there is also a hope that India could become a much stronger ally. Civilisationally, there is nothing hampering closer relations between India and Israel. There is no historical baggage, and there is no antisemitism. Judaism is not a missionary religion. And while they are often conservative and insular in religious life, they see no reason to convert India's Hindu majority, which they view as an ally.

On the other hand, by this hypothesis, would China, or the countries of East Asia eventually turn into Israel's staunchest allies?


China can turn into a staunch Israeli ally, and they are already making moves in that direction. More concrete moves have been thwarted by US pressure, but if US-Israeli relations sour in the coming years, they will move more determinedly towards China.
Last edited by Shanmukh on 23 Feb 2014 02:29, edited 2 times in total.

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2971
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 23 Feb 2014 01:55

sanjaykumar wrote:In fact the Liberals are heading out of Israel leaving it to the Haredi. They are deeply ashamed of the latter. But unlike Indians they do not air their laundry in public.


Ehh - not sure where you got the idea that they do not air the laundry in public. Israeli liberals and right say the most unseemly things about each other, in public. See for instance, what Yigal Tumarkin has to say about the Haredi. Even the most ardent Jihadi sympathiser would be impressed by the hatred displayed.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4539
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Feb 2014 03:48

If about 50% of westerners are familiar with the caste system, perhaps less than 1% are aware of the Haredim.


The point of the trenchant observations in these last several posts is not to denigrate Jews or Christian or Europeans or Americans. I have nothing against them and only expect them to be as 'good' or 'bad' as anybody else.

The fundamental problem is with Indians and the preposterous 'all paths lead to the same place' belief system.
This belief system is an excuse for intellectual laziness, shoddy scholarship and abysmal standards of education/lack of sophistication. The vast majority of Indians are at the stage of pretending not to notice the contempt reserved for them. Even the Chinese are pulling out of their deference for the Westerner and they have much more to be ashamed of than democratic, relatively non-violent India.

Until Indians are educated to these matters, they will fully deserve this contempt.

raj.devan
BRFite
Posts: 106
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby raj.devan » 23 Feb 2014 16:37

nageshks wrote:
The Russian Jews are giving the Ashkenazi a run for their money, in both education and in research.. In fact, the Technion has Russian as de facto language - about a quarter to a third of the university, especially at graduate level is Russian. However, it is true that in industry and trade, the Ashkenzais dominate. It is no exaggeration to say that the Russians are competing very strongly with the Ashkenazi. Israel Beitenu is the party favoured by Russian Jews and it is doing very well, so they are getting their foot inside government as well. From the days of the Irgun (which split off from the Hagannah), the Israeli Right has been more and more dominated by Russians. Even Menachem Begin was from Russia. Not that all Russian Jews were Right - for instance, Golda Meir was also Russian and she was Leftist.

Russian Jews, Golda Meir and Menachem Begin included, are very much considered as Ashkenazi Jews.

What you are referring to is the strong emergence of Russian Jews in Israeli Society which occurred only after and as a direct result of the Post Soviet Aliyah of the 90s. It should be noted that this influx of Russians was the single largest immigration into Israel in terms of numbers per year (Almost a million immigrants in a span of 20 years according to the Israeli census board, http://www.cbs.gov.il/publications12/14 ... /tab05.pdf), and had serious ramifications for Israeli politics.

The economic, cultural and political shock of having such a massive rush of foreigners into the country created a distinct Russian subset within Israel. In political terms, this subset showed itself as a distinctly right-wing, hard-line, anti-Arab attitude. While this was initially the preserve of the Russian immigrants, the 2nd Intifada in 2000-2005 made such right wing ideas more politically acceptable to the Israeli public.

An example of this is the emergence of one political party - The Yisrael Beiteinu. This party first appeared in the elections of May '99 and reflected the right wing attitude of the Russian immigrants who formed its support base. Subsequent to the 2nd intifada, this party saw its support base expand to all sections of the Israeli electorate beyond the Russian immigrant population, and it is today a part of the Israeli ruling coalition in the Knesset along with Netanyahu's Likud.

While it is meaningless to juxtapose the post 90s emergence of the Israeli Right with the Irgun (which was disbanded into the IDF in '48), it also cannot be seen as Russian immigrants trying to upstage the Ashkenazis. While Israel's right-wing movement may have been born in the Russian community, its subsequent growth to prominence was a reaction of Israeli society to the 2nd Intifada, and the subsequent Gaza Conflict. As a parallel, the Hamas and its own brand of right wing politics also shot to prominence in Palestine at the same time.

It is this emergence of right wing political thought in the Knesset that was proved critical to India in recent times. The same political forces that push for a hard line stance against the Palestinians and Hamas are also the voices that call for closer military and economic cooperation with India.

Israel even cooperates with Saudi Arabia when it comes to taking on Iran. India cooperates with Iran, and US. Such cooperation is based on realpolitik, not trust, and only lasts for very short periods. But scratch just beneath the surface, and you will find the mistrust of Europe. Two millenia of religious persecution tends to make Jews more than a little wary. And the sentiment is reciprocated by Europe.

I know that you like to look at international relations by zooming out a thousand years or so and taking into account every religious, cultural and ethnic influence possible, but I find it very hard to understand where a 'mistrust of Europe' from the Israeli perspective can be seen. Unless you are referring to the usual half-hearted condemnations of Israeli attacks on Palestine/Lebanon/Gaza that keep coming from European leaders, I fail to see any manifestation of 'mistrust' or hostility with Europe. There definitely were 2000 years of persecution of Jews by Europeans, but even the big one among them by the Nazis, does not seem to figure going by the extensive trade and military cooperation between, say, Israel and Germany. There is also no hint of it in the way Israel is member of so many European transnational federations, or in the way Italian ex PM Berlusconi suggested that Israel should actually join the EU. Its hard to visualize such deep relations as a superficial veneer that can be so easily scratched off.

Civilisationally, there is nothing hampering closer relations between India and Israel. There is no historical baggage, and there is no antisemitism. Judaism is not a missionary religion. And while they are often conservative and insular in religious life, they see no reason to convert India's Hindu majority, which they view as an ally.

I fail to understand the connection made between religion and international relations. Closer relations between any two countries depend primarily on the scope for economic growth and trade, along with commonalities in security threats and alliances. True, it may be hard to forge relations in the face of overwhelming religious or ethnic conflicts, but these are fundamentally political issues. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to buy into the argument that any viable political relations between two countries can be forged primarily on religious or ethnic grounds.

China can turn into a staunch Israeli ally, and they are already making moves in that direction. More concrete moves have been thwarted by US pressure, but if US-Israeli relations sour in the coming years, they will move more determinedly towards China.

Israel and China have some very deep economic relations, but this is only because China is China, and has voluminous amounts of trade with almost every country in the world. China does also receive a lot of military equipment from Israel, but this is again a trade relation, not a military alliance, as China forms a huge market for Israel's arms industry. But the fact that this is all just-business-nothing-personal was made evident when China participated in military exercises with Syria, Russia and Iran in the Med Sea, and then promptly made meet-and-greet warship calls at Haifa.

But there is a still a lack of strategic and security-related commonalities between Israel and China for both to turn into staunch military allies.
Last edited by raj.devan on 23 Feb 2014 16:51, edited 1 time in total.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 23 Feb 2014 16:50

>> The vast majority of Indians are at the stage of pretending not to notice the contempt reserved for them... Until Indians are educated to these matters, they will fully deserve this contempt.

Will have to presume you're speaking for yourself, not for the forum participants or Indians in general...
What is curious is why are you bothered whether there is contempt, or apparent goodwill even?

Speaking, for myself of course, I am not particularly concerned whether someone is contemptuous or even full of goodwill - where self-interest (however that is defined) is concerned. What matters is whether that interest is secured is it not? Why should we bother about other's opinions of us? Sure, if they genuinely have a good opinion, it makes transactions more efficient and, possibly, less expensive and even a genuinely pleasant experience - but that is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4539
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Feb 2014 20:43

I find it prudent to adapt to the real world where I have to interact with a dozen ethnicities. The mental insularity I decry is well demonstrated above.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 23 Feb 2014 20:58

Yes, but the question remains unanswered... why does one have to be bothered about others contempt or goodwill, any more than they are about yours when they are contemptuous of you (for no good reason, you will agree).

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4539
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Feb 2014 22:05

When I found my guru, high in the Himalayas, he advised me that it was insufficient to merely shove the metaphorical sword up the a$$ but that I also needed to twist it a little.



Gratuitous contempt can very well work both ways, there is no exceptionalism that renders one group immune to it. All should be aware of this principle: It will make the world a lot more harmonius.

I have to say that the Brits have in large measure learned this, the fact that they can be self critical is directly related to the relative peace and harmonious life of the varied ethnicities of London.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 23 Feb 2014 22:28

>>Gratuitous contempt can very well work both ways, there is no exceptionalism that renders one group immune to it. All should be aware of this principle: It will make the world a lot more harmonius.

And is it so in the real world where one has to interact with a dozen ethnicities? Common sense would suggest that if someone is contemptuous of you, you can either ignore it totally and focus on the transactional benefit (bania mentality) which I absolutely back, or feel upset about it and feel contemptuous right back. To me it seems quite Indic to take the transactional benefit approach, as it also keeps the negative energies related to contempt for others, ill feeling at the contempt towards you, etc away from the mind. Many Israelis would find that approach eminently reasonable I suspect.

>>I have to say that the Brits have in large measure learned this, the fact that they can be self critical is directly related to the relative peace and harmonious life of the varied ethnicities of London.

Not sure who you mean by the Brits here, but I suspect it is the Anglo-Saxons; the ability of the rest of the ethnic and religious identities to be self-critical is probably questionable. Not that I find that the Anglo-Saxons to be more self-critical than, say us Indians.

I have/had no guru, so no one to tell me about where I should stick the metaphorical sword and so on - and am not looking for one. Guru, that is.

Since this is veering OT, it may be taken to any other appropriate thread.

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2971
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 23 Feb 2014 23:28

raj.devan wrote:Russian Jews, Golda Meir and Menachem Begin included, are very much considered as Ashkenazi Jews.

What you are referring to is the strong emergence of Russian Jews in Israeli Society which occurred only after and as a direct result of the Post Soviet Aliyah of the 90s. It should be noted that this influx of Russians was the single largest immigration into Israel in terms of numbers per year (Almost a million immigrants in a span of 20 years according to the Israeli census board, http://www.cbs.gov.il/publications12/14 ... /tab05.pdf), and had serious ramifications for Israeli politics.


While the mass immigration of the Russian Jews occurred in the late 80s and 90s (about a million), the arrival of the Russian Jews was a constant from the late 60s. They arrived in driblets, and there was a transit camp in Wien for Russian Jews. From roughly 4K in the 1960s, about a quarter of a million arrived from Russia in the 1970s and 1980s (see Ludmilla Alekseyeva, `History of the Dissident Movement in USSR' - the work is in Russian, not sure if an English copy exists). However, the Jews could not arrive directly from Russia, and this led to complications (see Schoenau ultimatum to Bruno Kreisky). This led to other problems for Israeli polity itself. From the days of the Lehi and the Irgun, Russians have been the mainstay of the right, to the chagrin of the Jews who came from Congress Poland, Germany, or Austria-Hungary.

Also, I have never seen Begin describe himself as an Ashkenazi. Can you link me where he calls himself one?

An example of this is the emergence of one political party - The Yisrael Beiteinu. This party first appeared in the elections of May '99 and reflected the right wing attitude of the Russian immigrants who formed its support base. Subsequent to the 2nd intifada, this party saw its support base expand to all sections of the Israeli electorate beyond the Russian immigrant population, and it is today a part of the Israeli ruling coalition in the Knesset along with Netanyahu's Likud.


The Russian immigrants of the 1970s and 1980s were also very much part of the same Yisrael Beitenu support base. Earlier, they formed the support of the Herut and Likud. They just moved much more to the right. Israel's polity is moving to the right since the arrival of the Russians in the 70s (90s were the culmination of the effort). And Russian Jews have always maintained a separate political identity, even if not a cultural identity, from the beginning.

While it is meaningless to juxtapose the post 90s emergence of the Israeli Right with the Irgun (which was disbanded into the IDF in '48), it also cannot be seen as Russian immigrants trying to upstage the Ashkenazis. While Israel's right-wing movement may have been born in the Russian community, its subsequent growth to prominence was a reaction of Israeli society to the 2nd Intifada, and the subsequent Gaza Conflict. As a parallel, the Hamas and its own brand of right wing politics also shot to prominence in Palestine at the same time.


Emergence of the Israeli Right did not happen in 1990s. It began in 1970s. Proof Positive? When did Begin and Shamir (the two greatest proponents of the Israeli Right) become prime ministers? Begin led the Irgun in the 1940s, and Shamir led the even more ruthless Lehi (the Stern Gang, in British parlance). And both Shamir and Begin had the support of the Russian Jewish community in Israel at their core.

I know that you like to look at international relations by zooming out a thousand years or so and taking into account every religious, cultural and ethnic influence possible, but I find it very hard to understand where a 'mistrust of Europe' from the Israeli perspective can be seen. Unless you are referring to the usual half-hearted condemnations of Israeli attacks on Palestine/Lebanon/Gaza that keep coming from European leaders, I fail to see any manifestation of 'mistrust' or hostility with Europe. There definitely were 2000 years of persecution of Jews by Europeans, but even the big one among them by the Nazis, does not seem to figure going by the extensive trade and military cooperation between, say, Israel and Germany. There is also no hint of it in the way Israel is member of so many European transnational federations, or in the way Italian ex PM Berlusconi suggested that Israel should actually join the EU. Its hard to visualize such deep relations as a superficial veneer that can be so easily scratched off.


Israel does business with everyone. There was widespread contempt for South Africa in the 1970s and 80s, but Israel happily did business with South Africa until the very last moment possible. It has been rumoured that Israel even helped in South Africa's nuclear programme. None of this means that Israel loved South Africa. Even Israeli right held South Africa in contempt. If you can read Hebrew, read what Menachem Begin thought of South Africa.

http://myrightword.blogspot.ca/2013/12/ ... ience.html

On the other hand, the next time you meet your non-liberal Ashkenazi colleagues, ask them what they think of Germany or France, or even UK. You will get what I mean.

And the sentiment is reciprocated. See the thousands of rants by officials, diplomats and so forth in Europe. While policy changes do not happen for realpolitik terms, there is no love lost.

I fail to understand the connection made between religion and international relations. Closer relations between any two countries depend primarily on the scope for economic growth and trade, along with commonalities in security threats and alliances. True, it may be hard to forge relations in the face of overwhelming religious or ethnic conflicts, but these are fundamentally political issues. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to buy into the argument that any viable political relations between two countries can be forged primarily on religious or ethnic grounds.


The relations between the political establishments are not always reflective of the people to people relations. And relations only between political establishments are always fraught, because they are going to change the moment political conditions change.

But there is a still a lack of strategic and security-related commonalities between Israel and China for both to turn into staunch military allies.


Only because of American pressure. The moment US-Israeli ties sour, the China Israel relations are going to go in a very different trajectory.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4539
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Feb 2014 01:23

Certain Indian engineering products were routinely rejected by german customs, a few years back, but the same products were approved when they were labelled 'Made in germany'/in Deutschland gehmacht. Not much scope for transactional benefits there, I'm afraid.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 24 Feb 2014 02:42


nawabs
BRFite
Posts: 1637
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby nawabs » 24 Feb 2014 12:45

Israel wants India to explore gas, sign trade pact: Envoy

http://www.lensonnews.com/lensonnews/1/ ... envoy.html
Israel has invited Indian companies to take part in extracting natural gas from its newly-found reserves, with 40 percent of the produced hydrocarbon reserved for exports, even as it wants talks on a free trade pact to fructify soon.

Israeli Ambassador to India Alon Ushpiz said his country will soon emerge as one of the biggest producers of natural gas and is willing to export it to India, which imports around 80 percent of its oil needs mostly from the Persian Gulf countries.

"Our plan is to keep 60 percent of the produce for domestic use, while the remaining 40 percent will be exported," Ushpiz said during an interaction with IANS editors, adding: "India, being one of the largest importers, will be the natural target."

The offshore gas reserves in the Mediterranean Sea, which extends from the coasts of Israel, Lebanon and Syria in the east to Cyprus in the west, is estimated to hold 122 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and 1.7 billion barrels of oil - the biggest discovery in 10 years.

A consortium led by Houston-based Noble Energy is developing the Tamar field in the Mediterranean Sea, located nearly 90 km west of Israel's port city of Haifa. Supply of gas from Tamar started in March 2013 for Israel's domestic use.

Another field named Leviathan in the Mediterranean Sea is also being developed by the Noble Energy-led consortium. The production is expected to start by 2017.

Ushpiz said Israel would be happy to see Indian companies' participation in these gas fields. "Any Indian company is free to participate, private or government-run." But he clarified that the country bars any company that has dealings with Iran.

Besides energy, the ambassador said, Israel is keen to enhance cooperation with India in other sectors like information technology, defence, water management and agriculture.

With a view to supporting joint technological ventures, Israel and India recently agreed to set up a $40 million joint fund. Both the countries will contribute $20 million each to the fund over a period of five years.

Ushpiz said Israel is keen to further enhance the corpus of the fund and also encourage private participation in it. On the ongoing talks for a free trade agreement, Ushpiz said: "It's a very complicated set of negotiations. It has been going on for more than three years now. Unfortunately, so far, we have not been able to conclude the negotiations."

But once the agreement is signed, India-Israel bilateral trade could rise three-fold in three -five years, the ambassador stated at the IANS office.

"The agreement is a strategic game changer to what we can and should do together. The minute we have a free trade agreement, the volume of trade is going to be much bigger. It is going to be larger by two-three fold in three-five years," he said.

"It will also change the composition of trade and remove the focus from the traditional things that we may be doing for the past 10 years to things which we should do together with high technology," the ambassador added.

India-Israel trade stood at $4.44 billion in 2012, down 14.3 percent from the previous year's $5.19 billion due to a slowdown. The balance of trade was in Israel's favour by $573 million, according to data available with India's external affairs ministry. In the first nine months of 2013, the two-way trade stood at $3.24 billion. IANS

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2014 13:03

nageshks wrote:Israel does business with everyone. There was widespread contempt for South Africa in the 1970s and 80s, but Israel happily did business with South Africa until the very last moment possible. It has been rumoured that Israel even helped in South Africa's nuclear programme. None of this means that Israel loved South Africa. Even Israeli right held South Africa in contempt. If you can read Hebrew, read what Menachem Begin thought of South Africa.

http://myrightword.blogspot.ca/2013/12/ ... ience.html.


This guy is dripping with condescension towards India. He claims Indian situation is similar to that of Israel (as and when it suits him) and then turns around and patronizes ("India indeed", issue for monkeys etc etc) elsewhere. I wonder whether he reflects the true Israeli view on India. They need Indian support, but think they are European/Abrahamic/whatever and hence superior.

http://myrightword.blogspot.in/search?q=india

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2971
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 24 Feb 2014 18:03

Karan M wrote:This guy is dripping with condescension towards India. He claims Indian situation is similar to that of Israel (as and when it suits him) and then turns around and patronizes ("India indeed", issue for monkeys etc etc) elsewhere. I wonder whether he reflects the true Israeli view on India. They need Indian support, but think they are European/Abrahamic/whatever and hence superior.

http://myrightword.blogspot.in/search?q=india


The author of the blog is an American Jew, who immigrated to Israel. His views on India would sync with American Jews. The only reason I pointed to his blog is to put up what Menachem Begin, the doyen of Israeli Right, thought of South Africa. I did mention that the best understanding of India is among Mizrahi Jews.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2014 18:17

American jews run/are part and parcel of the US lefty ilk such as NYT, correct? If his views are representative of that set, then perhaps it explains how both the left & right on the western spectrum look down on Indian culture.

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2971
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 24 Feb 2014 18:55

Karan M wrote:American jews run/are part and parcel of the US lefty ilk such as NYT, correct? If his views are representative of that set, then perhaps it explains how both the left & right on the western spectrum look down on Indian culture.


Western Jews (not just Ashkenazi) are the hardest to deal with, whether they are left or right - the sense of exceptionalism is extremely high. The best common ground you will find is with the older generation Mizrahi Jews (people whose parents were born in the Arab world/Asia, or who themselves were born in the Arab/Indian part of the world), to an extent Russian Jews. It is important to sensitise the younger generation of Jews to Indian issues because they will be the ones holding the power in 20 years. Also, the younger generation of Jews is taking its talking points too much from western media (which is what dominates in Israel too). Just look through Israeli newspapers, and you will see how many articles are influenced by NYT, BBC, etc, even when the BBC also often takes the Palestinian side over the Israeli.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2014 19:36

Apparently many israelis who visit India treat locals with disrespect or get into trouble because of their attitude of dealing with "natives" thanks to their military service.
Until and unless India develops economically and the average Indian stands up to any perceived bad behaviour without giving it a free pass, am afraid we'll keep coming across these sort of behavioral traits.

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2971
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 01 Mar 2014 21:32

India Israel Defence cooperation - From an Israeli perspective.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.575486

raj.devan
BRFite
Posts: 106
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby raj.devan » 02 Mar 2014 22:22

Ultra-Orthodox Jews stage mass protest against Israeli draft law

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... I820140302

Hundreds of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews held a mass prayer in Jerusalem on Sunday in protest at a bill that would cut their community's military exemptions and end a tradition upheld since Israel's foundation.

Ultra-Orthodox leaders had called on their men, women and children to attend the protest against new legislation ending the wholesale army exemptions granted to seminary students, which is expected to pass in the coming weeks


It would be interesting to see how Israel's foreign policy will be influenced if its Haredim population began to play a bigger role in government and politics.


anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8290
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby anupmisra » 05 Mar 2014 05:32


A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11639
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 15 May 2014 04:30


Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 15 May 2014 04:49



Note the WWII Nazi helmets, Ironic no?

Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 906
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Haresh » 15 May 2014 13:04

Cosmo_R wrote:Note the WWII Nazi helmets, Ironic no?


They are not WW2 era Nazi helmets.
Look closely, they are not made of steel, they are modern US helmets.


member_27987
BRFite
Posts: 209
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby member_27987 » 18 May 2014 20:51



The comments are interesting. Didn't realise, with the kind of crap Israel had put up with from the Islamic and historic Christian terrorism, that there are still left leaning apeasers there as well. Not sure if it is Israelis themselves or citizens of their *ahem* neighbouring countries who are so active in either denying things are happening to them, and a parallel assault by some others doing an equal-equal between Hinduism and Nazism. Looks like both India and Israel have their deracianated self loathing population in them.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4539
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 18 May 2014 22:42

They have a term for it, `the self-hating Jew.`

akashganga
BRFite
Posts: 367
Joined: 17 Mar 2010 04:12

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby akashganga » 19 May 2014 02:08

EswarPrakash wrote:


The comments are interesting. Didn't realise, with the kind of crap Israel had put up with from the Islamic and historic Christian terrorism, that there are still left leaning apeasers there as well. Not sure if it is Israelis themselves or citizens of their *ahem* neighbouring countries who are so active in either denying things are happening to them, and a parallel assault by some others doing an equal-equal between Hinduism and Nazism. Looks like both India and Israel have their deracianated self loathing population in them.

Many Indians do not know that islamists and crusading christians hate jews as much as they hate hindus. Muslims hate jews because their religion's founder fought with jews during his lifetime. The crusading christians hate jews because jesus christ was born into a jewish family and jews never accepted him as their prophet and they cannot stomach this fact. Both islamists and crusaders consider jews as kabab mein haddi. That is why jews have been persecuted over the last 2000 years. Hindus should naturally sympathize with jews as judaism is a native faith of jews just as hinduism is a religion naturally evolved in bharatvarsh.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10690
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 May 2014 08:48

A_Gupta wrote:Anti-semitism in India:
http://global100.adl.org/#country/india

As far as educated hindus go, it's because of British media and left intellectual overt anti-semitism coupled with a wide spread mis-perception in the Indian elite mind that BBC and other British media are paragons of non-partisanness. A percentage of educated Muslims who had been to the land of two mosques and might have driven in the emirates take their cue from the nabobs of these places. After all they were the ones who would have held the purse strings (i.e. work permits) which were loosened so that they could not only eat beeph at every meal but also were able to buy up real-estate around the lagoons and backwaters of Kerala and Twin cities. No wonder stone throwing Edward Said is lionized and emulated by the likes of Rajmohan Gandhis of the world.

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 31 May 2014 01:50

Smriti Irani at work:
India, Israel to take up joint research programmes
India and Israel today pledged to take up joint research programmes to the tune of USD 5 million per year to further strengthen ties in the education sector between the two countries.

This was decided at a meeting between the new HRD Minister Smriti Irani and Israel Ambassador to India Alon Ushpiz.

In the first round under the joint initiative, 66 research proposals have been received and evaluation by the experts from both the sides will start today and will be completed by June 2014.

Ushpiz said Israel offers 200 post doctoral fellowships of which about 80 percent are availed by Indian students.

According to an official statement, Irani appreciated Israel's move to launch another scholarship for 40 Bachelors programmes and 30 for Masters programmes there.

Usphiz also said that Israeli Nobel Laureate Ada E Yonath, who received the 2009 Nobel in Chemistry along with India's V Ramakrishnan, would be visiting India in March 2015.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 May 2014 02:58



Its that oiseaule Vijay Prashad again. Spouts bile against India, Hindus, the US as a capitalistic ravisher. All of course, under the protective aegis of a tenured position at Trinity College in Hartford CT.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 May 2014 03:02

Haresh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Note the WWII Nazi helmets, Ironic no?


They are not WW2 era Nazi helmets.
Look closely, they are not made of steel, they are modern US helmets.


I realize they are modern but compare them to what Nazi helmets looked like and the strong resemblance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nazi+he ... 80&bih=551

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10690
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 31 May 2014 03:06

By the way, Trinity is considered to be one of the hidden Ivys. Loks like lot of Ivys have this khujli against Hindus for reasons that can only be guessed at.

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 31 May 2014 03:33

matrimc wrote:By the way, Trinity is considered to be one of the hidden Ivys. Loks like lot of Ivys have this khujli against Hindus for reasons that can only be guessed at.

Many of them were founded by Anglo loot from Hindoostan. E.g. Yale.


Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12411
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jun 2014 16:15

Israel should first deliver on Barak-8 before any forward steps.

rgsrini
BRFite
Posts: 738
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 18:00

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby rgsrini » 13 Jun 2014 18:23

^^I agree. Thanks Israel. But we don't need help in this area. I don't believe that there is a need for obtaining help to clean our own rivers. There are a lot of good ideas within. Implementation was lacking. Modi's strength is implementation.

Fundamentally, we need to find alternate arrangement for all the sewage and industrial wastage that uses Ganges as a drain. Penalizing the industries without providing them alternatives is not the solution. One of the alternative could be building several large capacity sewage treatment plants and building (or augmenting existing) sewage lines for about 1500 miles along the banks of Ganges.

The surface pollutant including ( garbage dumping along the banks, clothes washing, human cremation) are easy IMHO. However, it needs strong alignment and partnership with the civil society. I doubt that there will be push back though as most of the civil society wants to see a purer and accessible Ganges.

ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 17 Jul 2014 15:23

Not sure if these video is posted before. Nice summation of Israel-Palestinian conflict.

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/the-most-important-video-about-israel-ever-made


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: vera_k and 26 guests