Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 18 Mar 2015 20:29

EU is a lost cause -- they seem to have thrown in their lot with China for the long term. They seem to be working on a look east policy, not involving Russia....and it is all their fault for sucking up to the US and screwing their good relations with Russia.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Mar 2015 20:56

Tuvaluan wrote:EU is a lost cause -- they seem to have thrown in their lot with China for the long term. They seem to be working on a look east policy, not involving Russia....and it is all their fault for sucking up to the US and screwing their good relations with Russia.

US has disengaged from EU and the economic problems in EU and moving towards Asia.
EU has no choice but to move on

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 18 Mar 2015 23:04

I'm sorry, the following is off-topic, by nageshks is attributing views to me that I have not expressed.

nageshks wrote:
No. The Jews did not get Israel peacefully, although creation of Israel (where before 1948, they bought most of the lands from absentee landlords of the then Ottoman Turkey & later the British Mandate) was far more peaceful than the creation of the US (which butchered native inhabitants).

Bought most of the lands? About 9% of what became Israel in 1947 was owned by the Jews.

But your conception of history has a certain ring of manufactured truth to it.

What have I revealed about my conception of history, pray do tell.

If we go back in history far enough, you have Canaanites living in what is today's Israel. They lost their lands to the Jews, who lost it to the Babylonians, who lost it to the Persians, who gave it back to the Jews (as vassals), who lost it to the Greeks, who lost it to the Jews, who again lost it to the Romans, who lost it to the Arabs, who lost it to the Franks, who lost it to the Mamelukes, who lost it to the Ottomans, who lost it to the British, who lost it to the Jews.

But only the Jews claim the land of Israel because God gave it to them.

The wheel, in my opinion, has come a full circle. Land belongs to the conqueror, until the next one comes along.

Then I hope you have never complained about Muslim conquest of India and formation of Pakistan.

Unless you can make a case for favouring the Arab conquerors (and butchers - if really believe Arabs got hold of what is now Israel peacefully, I have a bridge to sell you) over the Jews, I see no point in your diatribe against one `People of the Book' in favour of a more ruthless `People of the Book' nor any reason to subscribe to it.

When did I favor the Palestinians - Muslims or Christians - over the Jews? Please show me this diatribe you have attributed to me.

The only way any "People of the Book" are acceptable to me as a Hindu is if they keep their "Book" out of politics, law and nationalism. In a Christian, Muslim or Jewish dispensation, I would be a heathen, a dhimmi or kafir or acum; this is not acceptable to me. If the Jews have not exhibited the scope of ferocity that Christians and Muslims have in the past, it is not because their Book precludes it; it is because they have been relatively weak. Jewish fundamentalism is sprouting up in Israel just as surely as Islamic fundamentalism in various parts of the Muslim world. In all these systems, I am an idolator and infidel, a sinner against God, to be terminated by conversion, explusion or extermination, or given an inferior status.

That is why accepting the legitimacy of any of these faiths having political power is perhaps necessary out of pragmatism, but is philosophically speaking, profoundly anti-Hindu.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 18 Mar 2015 23:43

A_Gupta wrote:I'm sorry, the following is off-topic, by nageshks is attributing views to me that I have not expressed.

nageshks wrote:
No. The Jews did not get Israel peacefully, although creation of Israel (where before 1948, they bought most of the lands from absentee landlords of the then Ottoman Turkey & later the British Mandate) was far more peaceful than the creation of the US (which butchered native inhabitants).
Bought most of the lands? About 9% of what became Israel in 1947 was owned by the Jews.

I said they bought most of the lands they had before 1948. May I remind you of the UN resolution to split Mandate Palestine into a Jewish part & an Arab part? What percentage of Israel does it form? Still 9%?

But your conception of history has a certain ring of manufactured truth to it.
What have I revealed about my conception of history, pray do tell.

That Israel was created out of a Jewish Jihad. Here is a quote from you, in the previous page "Will not enter into the mythology of the peaceful creation of Israel with willing displacement of the Palestinian population, and how that is or is not different from a jihad against unbelievers.". A Jewish Jihad should have decreased the population of Arabs in Israel after the Independence War, right? Why is the population of Arabs increasing with each passing decade? May I remind you the effects of Jihad on Hindus in Pakistan or Buddhists of Bangladesh? Surely the demographics of Israel should have revealed a similar state for the Arab population had a Jewish Jihad been declared on the Arabs?

If we go back in history far enough, you have Canaanites living in what is today's Israel. They lost their lands to the Jews, who lost it to the Babylonians, who lost it to the Persians, who gave it back to the Jews (as vassals), who lost it to the Greeks, who lost it to the Jews, who again lost it to the Romans, who lost it to the Arabs, who lost it to the Franks, who lost it to the Mamelukes, who lost it to the Ottomans, who lost it to the British, who lost it to the Jews.
But only the Jews claim the land of Israel because God gave it to them.

Jews claim it also on a historical basis. It is a clever sleight of hand to point only to the divine justifications. Secular Jews claim it because their forefathers lived there 2000 years ago, before they were forcefully deported all over the map by the Roman empire.

The wheel, in my opinion, has come a full circle. Land belongs to the conqueror, until the next one comes along.
Then I hope you have never complained about Muslim conquest of India and formation of Pakistan.

Complain or not is irrelevant. If I claim Pakistan, it will be as my right as conqueror & because my (countrymen's) forefathers lived there. My right to conquest of Pakistan itself is based on Hindus having lived there for many thousands of years.

Unless you can make a case for favouring the Arab conquerors (and butchers - if really believe Arabs got hold of what is now Israel peacefully, I have a bridge to sell you) over the Jews, I see no point in your diatribe against one `People of the Book' in favour of a more ruthless `People of the Book' nor any reason to subscribe to it.
When did I favor the Palestinians - Muslims or Christians - over the Jews? Please show me this diatribe you have attributed to me.

When you do a equal-equal between Pakistan & Israel, as you did in the last page, without saying a word about Palestinians, your intentions are obvious.

The only way any "People of the Book" are acceptable to me as a Hindu is if they keep their "Book" out of politics, law and nationalism. In a Christian, Muslim or Jewish dispensation, I would be a heathen, a dhimmi or kafir or acum; this is not acceptable to me. If the Jews have not exhibited the scope of ferocity that Christians and Muslims have in the past, it is not because their Book precludes it; it is because they have been relatively weak. Jewish fundamentalism is sprouting up in Israel just as surely as Islamic fundamentalism in various parts of the Muslim world. In all these systems, I am an idolator and infidel, a sinner against God, to be terminated by conversion, explusion or extermination, or given an inferior status.

That is why accepting the legitimacy of any of these faiths having political power is perhaps necessary out of pragmatism, but is philosophically speaking, profoundly anti-Hindu.

Can you show me one Jewish Holy War outside Jewish lands (territory of the Kingdoms of Judaea & Israel) that has been launched after 500 BC? Even within Israel, their holy war was against Seleucids. Why didn't the evangelistic Jews launch a Holy War outside Israel? They had their own kingdom during the latter Seleucid & Early Roman empires, you know?

As for your claims about infidels & idolators, why are the Druze accepting Israel & voting for hyper nationalistic parties like Israel Beitenu? Now that Arab nationalism has collapsed, even Alawites (yes, there are Alwaites in Israel too) and Arab Christians are integrating fully into Israel. They had been historically discriminated against (mostly because of Arabs standing aloof & fears that these would not prove loyal), but they now see a chance to integrate and win concessions for themselves (and are being supported in their demands by even centrist political parties). How many Druze & Arabs have been converted to Judaism after Israel was established? And if there are very few, why so? Surely, Israel could use its state power to convert them all?

There are even Hindus in Israel & living qute well off, with their own temples openly. Here is the ISKCON centre in Tel Aviv http://www.iskconcenters.com/tel-aviv/. Jews haven't smashed them. The Bahai have their biggest temple in West Asia in Haifa - it is called Bahai garden.

The fact that many faiths are living peacefully inside Israel, thriving & even growing demographically should be evidence enough that they are not majorly discriminated against, no?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Mar 2015 00:59

Another thing to note is that Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries after six day war of 1971. Similar to ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits from Kashmir. The arabs seem to have earned no negative points for that even though Israel won the war against all odds of facing much bigger rivals like Egypt and against help provided by Saudis, Pakis, and host of other countries.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Mar 2015 03:47

Adam Silverman has been a generally reliable commentator, but I found this to be surprising:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -east.html

All three have indicated that Israel should annex the Palestinian territories and begin a long, slow, deliberate process of providing citizenship to the Palestinians. This would be accomplished after a thorough vetting process for security purposes and constitutional revision that would clarify and lock in that Israel is a Jewish state. Elitzer, Hotolevi, and Rivlin are basing their plan on a favorable interpretation of demographic trends - that Israelis, specifically Jewish Israelis, will out reproduce Israel's Arab minority and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. This may simply not be the case. What these projections ignore is that more and more Israelis are choosing to move out of Israel, especially younger Israelis. They are reclaiming their citizenship in the European countries that their grandparents and great-grandparents fled before the Holocaust and WW II or were refugees from after WW II. In a note of historic irony, the largest reclamation of citizenship in this reverse migration is German citizenship!

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 19 Mar 2015 07:20

A_Gupta wrote:Adam Silverman has been a generally reliable commentator, but I found this to be surprising:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -east.html

All three have indicated that Israel should annex the Palestinian territories and begin a long, slow, deliberate process of providing citizenship to the Palestinians. This would be accomplished after a thorough vetting process for security purposes and constitutional revision that would clarify and lock in that Israel is a Jewish state. Elitzer, Hotolevi, and Rivlin are basing their plan on a favorable interpretation of demographic trends - that Israelis, specifically Jewish Israelis, will out reproduce Israel's Arab minority and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. This may simply not be the case. What these projections ignore is that more and more Israelis are choosing to move out of Israel, especially younger Israelis. They are reclaiming their citizenship in the European countries that their grandparents and great-grandparents fled before the Holocaust and WW II or were refugees from after WW II. In a note of historic irony, the largest reclamation of citizenship in this reverse migration is German citizenship!

Israelis are really migrating to Poland, Baltic states, Hungary, Romania and Ukraine??? (that's where they mostly came from - the number of Jews in Western Europe was paltry compared to number of Jews in the East) I didn't find many Jews in my trip to Hungary last year, but that may have just been me, though. If they are really migrating to Europe, where can I send them a Darwin award?

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 19 Mar 2015 08:57

A_Gupta wrote:Adam Silverman has been a generally reliable commentator, but I found this to be surprising:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -east.html

All three have indicated that Israel should annex the Palestinian territories and begin a long, slow, deliberate process of providing citizenship to the Palestinians. This would be accomplished after a thorough vetting process for security purposes and constitutional revision that would clarify and lock in that Israel is a Jewish state. Elitzer, Hotolevi, and Rivlin are basing their plan on a favorable interpretation of demographic trends - that Israelis, specifically Jewish Israelis, will out reproduce Israel's Arab minority and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. This may simply not be the case. What these projections ignore is that more and more Israelis are choosing to move out of Israel, especially younger Israelis. They are reclaiming their citizenship in the European countries that their grandparents and great-grandparents fled before the Holocaust and WW II or were refugees from after WW II. In a note of historic irony, the largest reclamation of citizenship in this reverse migration is German citizenship!

mostly because of cost of living:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/berlin-exo ... in-israel/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 99813.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world ... -show.html

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Mar 2015 19:37

The Haredim in Israel: (PDF)
Fundamentalism it is.
http://www.israelstudies.umd.edu/files/Plotzker.pdf

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 19 Mar 2015 19:42

Re-examining the mythology of Israel's birth:
http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 Mar 2015 20:01

A_Gupta wrote:Adam Silverman has been a generally reliable commentator, but I found this to be surprising:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -east.html

.. They are reclaiming their citizenship in the European countries that their grandparents and great-grandparents fled before the Holocaust and WW II or were refugees from after WW II. In a note of historic irony, the largest reclamation of citizenship in this reverse migration is German citizenship![/b]

I've noticed this in young American Jews too. Personally know of 3 under 30s who got German citizenship for EU opportunities.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2015 03:59

Here is where the secular, modern side of Israel finally prevailed over the fundamentalist, Jewish side of Israel. But this petty tyranny is typical of the Religions of the Books when they have the least bit of power. An equivalent thing would be a "Halal" certification board revoking Halal certification if the hotel put up Diwali lighting or any statues of deities or had pictures of people on the wall. I for one don't see why this would be intolerable coming from Muslims but tolerable coming from Jews.

If you don't understand, please read the Western Universalism thread, among other things. The only thing that holds fundamentalism of the Religions of the Books in check is either the predominance of the Western Enlightenment (which is there among most Christians and Jews) or existing (even if fragile & under attack) cultural bonds with "pagans" (e.g., like Muslims in India or Indonesia).

If the Haradim come to dominate in Israel, the Western Enlightenment orientation of that country will erode away.

http://forward.com/articles/216220/rabb ... el-hotels/

Israel’s Chief Rabbinate issued new kashrut guidelines for hotels that are based solely on the food of an establishment and will not take into account other considerations.

The guidelines were released last week following a petition by the Israeli NGO Hiddush-For Religious Freedom and Equality that threatened to appeal to the Supreme Court if the regulations were not changed.

Among the previous regulations, hotels and other establishments could have their kosher certification revoked if there were photography, music or movie screenings on Shabbat, or if a Christmas tree was displayed during the holiday season.

“After decades, the Chief Rabbinate ended its policy of religious coercion related to Shabbat observance and Christmas,” Hiddush President Rabbi Uri Regev said in a statement. “The kashrut regulations for hotels, hostels and halls are now finally in line with the law, and truly deal only with matters of kashrut.”

Hiddush said the Chief Rabbinate had been in violation of the Kosher Fraud Law established in 2013, which states that “the kashrut inspector should only consider standards of kashrut alone in certifying an establishment as kosher.”

According to a Supreme Court ruling, basing an establishment’s kosher certification on considerations such as Sabbath observance or modesty was in contravention of the law.

Among the changes agreed to by the Chief Rabbinate are repealing the ban on video devices, audio and musical instruments at events held in hotels on Saturdays, except when food is served; repealing the restriction on only having non-Jewish receptionists to receive payments on the Sabbath, except for transactions involving food; repealing the ban on the use of Christian holiday symbols, such as putting up fir trees for Christmas and New Year’s season; and repealing the regulation that all hotel elevators must be run as “Sabbath elevators” on Shabbat, except for elevators being used in food delivery.

Regev said that Hiddush would monitor the Chief Rabbinate to be sure the changes were implemented.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 04:04

I find your loathing of the Jews for fanaticism etc and labelling it anti Hindu amusing & reflective of how association with the Left automatically instills in otherwise highly analytical folk a reflexive dislike of the Jews and their nation.
Facts are despite their hardline views, they have worked to further the security of Hindu lives by providing us state of the art weaponry and assistance when we needed it. And work with India to enhance national security. Friends in deeds. Against this, you would have us fulminate and rage over how "fundamentalist" they are within their own nation. I don't recall any Jew coming to murder me or mine. I don't recall when the Jews last launched a jihad to eliminate us Kaffirs or supported tech denial regimes in recent years. All this of course has to be disregarded over their own lives & choices. Interesting.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Mar 2015 06:37

^^^^
I suspect that you are projecting your loathing of Muslims onto what you believe I think of Jews. It might help if you read what I wrote instead of extrapolating what I wrote based on your own proclivities.

What I dislike is the fundamentalism of the Religions of the Book. I can even live with that fundamentalism as long as it does not, but I repeat myself, have legal or political power. In Israel today, fundamentalism is in political competition with the Enlightenment values Israelis brought with them from Europe.

I wouldn't have anyone fulminate or rage over Israel or Palestine (or Saudi Arabia for that matter). I don't rage or fulminate over them. If you must fulminate or rage over anything it should be over the God/Jehovah/Allah of Religions of the Books. But rage is to be eschewed as it is not good for you; and in any case it is a waste as that rage does not even serve as a spur to achieve something positive.

There certainly is also pragmatism, and I am repeating myself again, that plays a role in foreign affairs, and I'm certainly not advocating abandoning pragmatism.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 06:58

I don't loathe muslims but you sure do loathe jews, muslims and christians with a special dislike for jews.

Given your loathing of jews, you seem to think that everyone is like you and must loathe jews on the basis of assumptions that based on your personal proclivities one day, jews will be bad etc and so must be fulminated against.

The interesting part is that per se, your logic about disassociating religious priorities from governance isn't wrong. But its interesting how you harp on Israel 24/7 and can't accept the fact that it's a strategic ally of India and is actually helping it. I don't see the same level of your dislike for jews for instance viz "christian USA" or "christian France" or "muslim Palestine". Even though there is some anger against all people of the book etc. Oh my.

You also ignore how the state of Israel has been under siege and what jews themselves have suffered under "other people of the book".

Your comments speak for themselves.

The only way any "People of the Book" are acceptable to me as a Hindu is if they keep their "Book" out of politics, law and nationalism. In a Christian, Muslim or Jewish dispensation, I would be a heathen, a dhimmi or kafir or acum; this is not acceptable to me. If the Jews have not exhibited the scope of ferocity that Christians and Muslims have in the past, it is not because their Book precludes it; it is because they have been relatively weak.

Jewish fundamentalism is sprouting up in Israel just as surely as Islamic fundamentalism in various parts of the Muslim world. In all these systems, I am an idolator and infidel, a sinner against God, to be terminated by conversion, explusion or extermination, or given an inferior status.

So with zero evidence (bar some dodgy links) you have declared jews are weak, ergo they don't victimize Hindus, will be equivalent to all the other fundamentalist systems (even though they haven't persecuted any Hindus), are equivalent to far worse and more widespread fanatacism elsewhere and we must also share your dislike of them. Whilst speaking for all Hindus and deciding that "as a Hindu", jews must be disliked.

No answers though viz hindu lives affected (positively) by israeli strategic assistance. You clearly couldn't give a darn.

Very interesting.

PS: I don't really think you loathe folks of other religions, I was just paying you back in your own coin about your comments about me loathing muslims etc ( I don't) which quite frankly were pointless. Goose, gander etc. In turn I should have worded my initial comments in a less acerbic fashion as well, it would be perhaps? more accurate to say you loathed jewish fundamentalism or were more concerned about it.

I merely disagree with your idee fixe about jews which TBH is not conducive to India's interests because its picking a fight with a people with whom we share several challenges & with whom we can have a pretty productive relationship.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Mar 2015 07:24

A_Gupta wrote: Jewish fundamentalism is sprouting up in Israel just as surely as Islamic fundamentalism in various parts of the Muslim world. In all these systems, I am an idolator and infidel, a sinner against God, to be terminated by conversion, explusion or extermination, or given an inferior status.

Your statistics are good, Arunji, in showing that Jewish fundamentalism is growing rapidly in Israel. You have won that part of the argument.

What you haven't proven though is the second part - what does 'Jewish fundamentalism' imply for non-Jews and Hindus in particular ?

For example, we can statistically prove that growth in Islamic fundamentalism is directly linked to increased violence & terrorism directed at non-Muslims (and Muslims). Growth in Christian fundamentalism can be statistically linked to growth in evanjehadis pumping in huge amounts of money, men and effort into conversion of 'pagans'.

But what does growth in 'Jewish fundamentalism' translate to ? Very certainly it will result in fall in IQ levels of Jewish society - but beyond that what ?

Please also refer back to an earlier conversation between us on the Haredim and Jewish nationalism: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1716772

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 07:54

>>>Your statistics are good, Arunji, in showing that Jewish fundamentalism is growing rapidly in Israel. You have won that part of the argument.

I doubt even that. Loads of those "sources" have a vested interest in proving that jews are inhumane occupiers and deserve a lashing, same as the usual rubbish about Hindu, Buddhist, Pastafarian extremism etc.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Mar 2015 08:17

Karan M wrote:>>>Your statistics are good, Arunji, in showing that Jewish fundamentalism is growing rapidly in Israel. You have won that part of the argument.

I doubt even that. Loads of those "sources" have a vested interest in proving that jews are inhumane occupiers and deserve a lashing, same as the usual rubbish about Hindu, Buddhist, Pastafarian extremism etc.

You are conflating "fundamentalism" with extremism and Zionism. Whereas the reality seems to be opposite in Israel.

I am referring to "orthodox" Jews - specifically the Haredim...I think that is what Arun Gupta has been focusing on as well.

There is no doubt at all of the increasing demographic representation of Haredim in Jewish society. But "Jewish orthodoxy" does not imply extremism. In fact, Haredim seem to be opposed to Zionist nationalism. So the question that needs to be answered is - what is the implication of this increase in the Haredim orthodoxy that Arun is worried about ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 08:30

Actually I dont have an issue with either fundamentalist jews or extremist jews - they are far away, and their extremism/fundamentalism is not targeted at me or mine. Its Arun Gupta who has a problem with jews being fundamentalist which he conflates as being equal to extremists who see Hindus as idol worshippers and will hence one day, seek to go against "us" and are currently doing mean things to the Pals etc etc etc.

This is why I thought it was amusing BTW and why I said leftist beliefs - which BTW are easily observable from the sort of sites Arun routinely links to when discussing these topics, the left invariably brainwash folks with an anti jewish streak. Seen it time and time before. The JNU in India hates Israel with a passion.

The NYT/Fashionable left of the west always moan about the jews, the Hindus. The jews and Hindus ironically enough seem to these guys to be some sort of oppressors. Even Hindus who are otherwise conscious of their heritage end up complaining/warning against jewish this, that, thanks to leftist indoctrination.

Personally, I couldn't give a fig because India is not under threat from Jewish fundamentalism. If they were to attack Hindus that'd be one thing. But right now, Israel is a valued Indian ally and source of technology against various threats. We have enough problems on our plate without naming and alienating other cultures with whom we don't have significant issues as being x, or y, or z. Whose father, what goes and all.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Mar 2015 08:48

I agree, Karan.

In fact - the same specious argument that Arun Gupta uses can well be made by a Jew sitting in Israel, in the other direction. India is seeing a rise in "Hindu Nationalism" and fundamentalism. All religious fundamentalism is dangerous and wrong - hence Hindu fundamentalist India is a danger to the world.

Thankfully - both Jews and Hindus figure among the smarter ethnicities in the world, and such faulty lines of reasoning have no chance of becoming dominant.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Mar 2015 22:41

So Hindus are saved by a primitive creed of god as saviour of a few chosen men. Yes very reassuring to be in the company of such smart ethnicities. It is the same as xtian and Islam only there you can gain admission to the club.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Mar 2015 23:02

sanjaykumar wrote:So Hindus are saved by a primitive creed of god as saviour of a few chosen men.

On the contrary, the Jew has no interest in 'saving' the Hindu soul nor do I have an interest in saving his soul. Maybe that's what makes us both smart.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 23:02

Hindus aren't saved by anyone but themselves. But we are living in a harsh world and alliances have to be made, deals have to be struck to get the best technology, processes to advance India and by that Hindus etc. Like it or not, Israel and the jews do have access to a lot of stuff which serve Indian interests. And besides which, why pick fights with those who don't harm us.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 23:03

Arjun wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:So Hindus are saved by a primitive creed of god as saviour of a few chosen men.
On the contrary, the Jew has no interest in 'saving' the Hindu soul nor do I have an interest in saving his soul. Maybe that's what makes us both smart.

Arjun ji, well said.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Mar 2015 23:15

Like it or not, Israel and the jews do have access to a lot of stuff which serve Indian interests. And besides which, why pick fights with those who don't harm us.

Precisely. Enlightened self-interest and all that.

I am waiting for the day when 'others' will spontaneously arrive at the same cogitation wrt to Hindus.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2015 23:37

sanjaykumar wrote:Like it or not, Israel and the jews do have access to a lot of stuff which serve Indian interests. And besides which, why pick fights with those who don't harm us.

Precisely. Enlightened self-interest and all that.

I am waiting for the day when 'others' will spontaneously arrive at the same cogitation wrt to Hindus.

Some have. Well at least the jews as represented by the state of Israel have. They work with us on a lot of military stuff. They keep quiet (mostly) even when India makes the noises about Pal & Iran and what not. Mutual interests.

akashganga · Post by **akashganga** » 21 Mar 2015 00:08

Karan M wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Like it or not, Israel and the jews do have access to a lot of stuff which serve Indian interests. And besides which, why pick fights with those who don't harm us.

Precisely. Enlightened self-interest and all that.

I am waiting for the day when 'others' will spontaneously arrive at the same cogitation wrt to Hindus.
Some have. Well at least the jews as represented by the state of Israel have. They work with us on a lot of military stuff. They keep quiet (mostly) even when India makes the noises about Pal & Iran and what not. Mutual interests.

My 2 cents.

I have had opportunity to get to know few jews in the US. They are very open minded and good people. They are tough in israel only because of harsh fanatical islam surrounding them. Jews have been persecuted by both muslims and christians. Muslims persecution started with the founding of their religion when their prophet fought jews. Christians never liked jews and persecuted them because their founder jesus was a jew and jews never accepted him and they cannot stomach this fact. Both islam and christianity claims their's is the only way to god or allah and works towards converting all humans to their faith though christianity underwent reforms. I believe jewish faith is not at like christianity or islam at its core claiming their's is the only way.

Hinduism and Buddhism are very popular in the west because of new age movements and yoga and many of these new age and yogic practices have been propagated by jewish. All Indians should support israel right to existance as their religion was founded in the present day israel and palestian areas long before islam was founded. Whenever India was under attack only soviets/russia and israel came to assist us.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2015 02:34

Good to know sir.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Mar 2015 02:44

Arjun wrote:I agree, Karan.

In fact - the same specious argument that Arun Gupta uses can well be made by a Jew sitting in Israel, in the other direction. India is seeing a rise in "Hindu Nationalism" and fundamentalism. All religious fundamentalism is dangerous and wrong - hence Hindu fundamentalist India is a danger to the world.

Thankfully - both Jews and Hindus figure among the smarter ethnicities in the world, and such faulty lines of reasoning have no chance of becoming dominant.

That's exactly the same argument which the Left uses against Hindus and tars and feathers Hindus in the most bigoted fashion. Which is why when I see the same arguments used against jews/jewish nationalism, it makes me circumspect.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Mar 2015 03:12

RajeshA wrote:NaMo has tried and to a large extent succeeded in making some strategic friendships around the world - Shinzo Abe of Japan, Tony Abbott of Australia, Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel.

At the moment, I don't see any possible partner for Modi in Europe, but I hope I'm in error!

That's the epicenter of the secular opposition to NaMo. EU seems to be katti with him for a variety of reasons.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 21 Mar 2015 04:01

A_Gupta wrote:Adam Silverman has been a generally reliable commentator, but I found this to be surprising:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -east.html

All three have indicated that Israel should annex the Palestinian territories and begin a long, slow, deliberate process of providing citizenship to the Palestinians. This would be accomplished after a thorough vetting process for security purposes and constitutional revision that would clarify and lock in that Israel is a Jewish state. Elitzer, Hotolevi, and Rivlin are basing their plan on a favorable interpretation of demographic trends - that Israelis, specifically Jewish Israelis, will out reproduce Israel's Arab minority and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. This may simply not be the case. What these projections ignore is that more and more Israelis are choosing to move out of Israel, especially younger Israelis. They are reclaiming their citizenship in the European countries that their grandparents and great-grandparents fled before the Holocaust and WW II or were refugees from after WW II. In a note of historic irony, the largest reclamation of citizenship in this reverse migration is German citizenship!

anmol wrote: mostly because of cost of living:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/berlin-exo ... in-israel/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 99813.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/world ... -show.html

That trend is so March 2015. Meanwhile, in April 2015, there is this:

Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe?

and in December 2014, this:

So in December 2014 they left, then in March they went back, and in April, they will leave again. These wascally jews are so shifty!

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Mar 2015 04:23

Wow. So much vitriol being flung at each other by Indian patriots because they think someone has failed the litmus test of being sufficiently pro-Israel?

I would have thought the litmus test here should be whether someone is sufficiently pro-Indian. There can be different views about others, but really, for those differences to give rise to insinuations of anti-Semitism? For what? We can have a wonderful, friendly and productive relationship with Israel and the Jews, but are they our mother's-side or father's side relatives? What goes of our father if Israel or Jews are treated by some Indians with less than obsequious deference that we have to get so worked up about it and pounce on fellow patriots? Do we have to love and defend them at the expense of fellow Indians, that too Indian patriots? Do we think that Israeli equivalent of BRF will come out with a chorus of denunciation against one of their own because they are insufficiently loyal to India?

Incredible India onlee.

And by the way, as for the argument that we have to coddle Israel and the Jews because they "suffer just like the Hindus" at the hands of the same or very similar tormentors--the thing for Hindus to do, if Hindus are suffering at someone's hands is to fight for the Hindus, and not for "someone who suffer just like the Hindus." It certainly seems like Hindus will use any excuse to distract themselves from the hard job of spending 100% of their energy, emotion and focus in standing up for themselves against an arguably hostile world.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 21 Mar 2015 05:47

To me the only thing that makes Israel valuable is the fact that it is one of the very few forces in this world today which has almost as much interest as Hindus do in making sure that Islam doesn't expand. The only other power with such a vested interest in Russia. But for Israel, it is a paramount interest. Because any consolidation of Islamic power and advance will come directly at the expense of Israel. Or the future possibility of it.

All else to me is secondary. I am entirely focused, KLNMurthy. And my focus is entirely on India's interests. and those interests couldn't be more crystal clear in my mind. Those Hindu nincompoops who stupidly go along with anti-Israeli propaganda, not realizing that such sly arguments are undertaken mostly to undermine the legitimacy of the Israeli state, have more things to learn which they will in due time. In the meantime, "I have arrived". Yes, I said it. It's time for us to abandon the loopy thinking where we hole ourselves into morality and dilemmas and contexts. Let's shed the sheep's skin. Take a clear stand. What do you see as Hindu interests on a global scale? Once the interests are clear, there can be no doubt on who's with us and who's against us? To me, the internal economic balance of Israel is of only peripheral concern to the extent that I wish they continue to have a sound financial and economic base which can help them continue to EXIST and be a thorn in Islam's side. How they do it is not only NOT my concern, but beyond my ATTENTION capability. I (WE) have enough things to worry about. Stupidly pondering on some Krugman article about "inequality" which quite conveniently pops up a few days before the General Elections and is very clearly part of the overall anti-Israeli campaign undertaken by a host of "Western" sources is entirely beyond the purview of "Indian interests". No, it is the people who brought it up in the "INDO-ISRAEL" thread that have clearly and totally lost focus on the real issue: INDIAN INTERESTS. period. Swasti.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Mar 2015 11:32

I don't accept Israel == Pakistan. Unlike Pakistan vis-a-vis Hindus, Jews actually need a militarized sovereign Jewish state to survive. And it is on balance beneficial to humanity that Jews should survive and flourish. I don't really care about the Abrahamic garbage parts of their culture. It is surely there and some of the Jews can be somewhat paki at times but generally Jews, unlike Muslims in general, have a commitment to intellectual curiosity and growth so that mitigates the negatives and tips the balance.

What I don't like is that sometimes I get the feeling that Hindus have developed an emotional affinity for Israel, uncomfortably reminding me of Pakistanis projecting their emotional needs on their all-weather friend. I want us to maintain some detachment in the relationship as Israel does with India. Friendship with Israel has definitely been a positive for us and should continue to be cultivated but I don't see that it qualitatively solves or eases our problems. By the same token, if God forbid Israel were to perish tomorrow it won't mean that our existence and future are qualitatively more in jeopardy than they already are. If we have money and talent then if some X doesn't sell us weapons or do research with us then some other Y will. Anyway our goal should be to be self-sustaining, independent of X or Y.

India is on its own. Nobody is there to hold our hand and help us, not even those with whom we have common adversaries. It is up to Indians to see to it that India is eternal. If Israel can play a positive role in that it's well and good. If we can't make use of Israel we just have to find another way.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 21 Mar 2015 12:52

Israel is vijayanagara Kingdom of middle east. Very powerful garrison state but destined to be overcome by its neighbours.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2015 15:34

An interesting book review in Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/life/books/.premium-1.549739
Titled:

Pakistan’s 'Jewish' roots
Established just a year before the State of Israel, Pakistan's founders were well aware of the parallels between themselves and the Zionists.

-- touches upon the parallels, as well as the differences that make a difference.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2015 15:50

Karan M wrote:The interesting part is that per se, your logic about disassociating religious priorities from governance isn't wrong. But its interesting how you harp on Israel 24/7 and can't accept the fact that it's a strategic ally of India and is actually helping it. I don't see the same level of your dislike for jews for instance viz "christian USA" or "christian France" or "muslim Palestine". Even though there is some anger against all people of the book etc. Oh my.

Actually, most of my BRF effort is focused on "Look East", Israel (or anything in West Asia) barely stirs across my consciousness. I am not even paying attention to ISIS.

Regarding the Christian Right in the US, there I can do more than just write to oppose them, and I do.

I don't really think you loathe folks of other religions, I was just paying you back in your own coin about your comments about me loathing muslims etc ( I don't) which quite frankly were pointless.

But I was responding to the accusation that I must loathe Jews, so I find the above quite ingenuous. Life is too short and time is too precious to waste on some of the people who infest BRF and your posts won't be visible to me any more.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2015 16:48

Israeli politics, from a liberal site that I subscribe to:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/bum ... d-for-bibi

Kahlon is reportedly demanding that centrist Yair Lapid and his Yesh Atid party be included in the governing coalition as the price of his entry. This would be in order to shift it toward a center-right from a rightist coalition. Additionally he's making fairly aggressive demands for the government and parliamentary positions which would make it possible for him to push through the reforms he ran on - which are tied to breaking up monopolies, reducing the cost of living in the country, etc.

PS: It was the oversized control the Israeli economy by 20 families that brought me to this thread after a long interval.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2015 17:01

Views of an American retd. Colonel, who is as far from Leftist as can be.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... nyahu.html

Americans have always wanted to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. Now there is no doubt. His {Netanyahu's} words in the last days of the campaign were unmistakably the words of someone who cannot be trusted and who will always lie to have his narrow nationalist goals advanced.

He also writes:

The Israeli Arabs are in an odd position. They live apart from the Israeli Jews in their own towns or parts of towns. They have little daily contact with Israeli Jews except for soldiers and police. I have some doubt about Klein's assertion that "almost all of them speak Hebrew." I have known a few who spoke some Hebrew but that seemed to be mainly for the purpose of chatting up Israeli Jewish girls. They have a taste for them and can sometimes meet them in the towns. They are citizens of Israel but in spite of their possession of Israeli passports and ability to elect people to the Knesset they have many civil disabilities. They are subject to movement and residence controls. They are treated with suspicion whenever they enter ot leave the country. Their residence in Jerusalem, the ancestral home of many, is severely restricted and discouraged. Ordinary Israeli Arab citizens are barred from service in the IDF although Druze of Arab ethnicity serve freely in the IDF snd police. There are also "tracker" battalions recruited (not drafted) from among Sinai tribal Bedouins.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2015 17:05

Yes, now, I'm on the warpath.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... -with.html

"The Forward" is an old New York City Jewish nespaper originally published in Yiddish.

"The naivete Israelis perceive in Americans is not just something they believe only Israel’s adversaries exploit; Israelis believe they can do so, too — and do."

I'll let it go at that. pl

PS: An editorial:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/boehners-epic-burn

Friends of Israel should be deeply concerned.