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Postby ramana » 14 Mar 2008 20:40

Pioneer, 14 March 2008

Tahdia is a ruse to fool the world

Hamas's latest truce offer reveals reluctance to give Israel real peace, reports Steven Gutkin from Jerusalem

Hamas is once again offering Israel a truce, but the language the Islamic movement has chosen reveals a deep reluctance to talk about any real peace with the Jewish state. Mr Ismail Haniyeh, Gaza's Hamas Prime Minister, on Wednesday proposed a "tahdia", a loosely defined period of calm that falls short of a formal cease-fire.

Still, this semantic nuance could well determine the success of West Asia peace-making. As long as Israelis and the Islamist terrorists are killing each other in Gaza and southern Israel, a US-sponsored drive to forge an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal by year's end stands little chance.

The efforts hit a snag on Wednesday when Israeli undercover forces killed four terrorists in the West Bank town of Bethlehem, including the local commander of Islamic Jihad. Gaza militants have claimed the right to retaliate for Israel's West Bank operations in the past, and Islamic Jihad said it would respond "at a time and place of (our) choosing".

If the raid leads to a fresh barrage of rockets on southern Israel, that could set the truce contacts back to the beginning. Israel is formally rejecting the truce talk, but other signs on the ground indicate that Israel and Hamas are moving closer toward an Egyptian-brokered deal to end weeks of cross-border fighting that has killed dozens of people, nearly all of them Palestinians. In a speech at Gaza City's Islamic University on Wednesday, Mr Haniyeh demanded an end to Israeli military activity in Hamas-ruled Gaza, a lifting of Israeli economic sanctions and the opening of Gaza's borders, which have been sealed since Hamas violently seized control of the area last June.

"We are talking about a mutual comprehensive tahdia, which means that the enemy must fulfill its obligations," Mr Haniyeh said. "The Israelis must stop the aggression... including assassinations and invasions, end the sanctions and open the borders." Palestinian militants have adopted the term tahdia as an alternative to "hudna" -- a legal concept dating to the birth of Islam. It refers to a truce of a fixed duration, usually between Muslims and non-Muslims. Prophet Mohammed first negotiated a hudna with rivals in Mecca in 628.

The concept could allow Islamists to negotiate without losing face. Some Hamas officials proposed a hudna with Israel after their group won the Palestinian parliamentary election in 2006. But Israel, as it did with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat some 15 years earlier, demanded full recognition as a condition for doing business.

In Hamas' eyes, hudna does imply recognition of the enemy to some degree - which helps explain why the militants have backed away from the term. A tahdia is more open to interpretation, and presumably can be broken off at any time - as happened when Hamas unilaterally declared two of them in 2003 and 2005.

Israeli officials have repeatedly warned that the militants would use any lull to rearm. A formal truce with Hamas is not needed, the officials say, as long as the militants refrain from launching rockets and other violence.

"If Hamas ceases its war against Israel, then there will be quiet," said Mr Mark Regev, spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister. It wouldn't be the first time the subtleties of language have complicated the region's politics.

Israel has said it would honour its obligations under various international peace plans not to expand West Bank settlements but, unlike most of the international community, doesn't view Jewish neighbourhoods in disputed east Jerusalem as settlements. Palestinians and Israelis have differed over the meaning of UN Security Council Resolution 242, calling for evacuation of lands captured by Israel in the 1967 war. The French version of the resolution referred to "the territories" while the English version cited mere "territories" - leading to an impassioned dispute lasting decades over whether Israel is obligated to cede everything.

Arafat famously sent Western diplomats racing to their dictionaries when in a 1989 interview with a French TV station he described the PLO charter, which called for the destruction of Israel, as "caduque" - a 17th century French legal term meaning null and void. While the French welcomed his characterisation as a positive gesture, Israel said it fell far short of a formal revocation of the charter, with then Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin describing Arafat's statement as "pathetic acrobatics". Only in 1998, in the presence of then US President Bill Clinton, did the PLO's ruling body formally revoke the relevant clauses of the charter.

Despite Israel's insistence on real peace rather than vague truces, there is a growing realisation that the current policy of blockade and military action has failed to weaken Hamas, which has proven its ability to disrupt fledgling peace talks between Israel and the moderate West Bank-based Government of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

The US, too, now appears to have thrown its support behind a broad deal that would include an end to the fighting and an easing of the international blockade of Gaza. At the centre of the arrangement would be the deployment of officers loyal to Abbas at Gaza's crossings.

Hamas officials said on Wednesday that they accept such a deployment in principle, even though it means giving up some control, and that they have given Egypt names of pro-Abbas officers who would be acceptable to Hamas.

"There are efforts by the Egyptian brothers who are working on this issue. We as Palestinians are waiting for the Israeli answers," Mr Haniyeh said. "The ball is in Israel's court." He also said that "all of the factions are involved", signalling that Hamas has the support of smaller militant groups that have often scuttled cease-fire attempts in the past.

Israeli political analyst Efraim Inbar said the benefit of a tahdia is that "they're no longer firing on us". In the long run, he said "it is problematic to leave a terror group like that in place without taking care of it militarily".
-- Associated Press correspondents Ibrahim Barzak in Gaza City and Mark Lavie in Jerusalem contributed to this report.



Now we learn an new term - Tahdia. Add that to Hudabaya, Hudna waht a number of weasel words to preserve theri image. Folks there are no modern Islamists all are antedeluvians. They come in Armani suits or that burqa all are same at the core. The core idea is that peace is a temporaray respite to gain final advantage to finish the opponent.

This can be x-posted in islamism thread too for completeness.

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Postby shyamd » 15 Mar 2008 22:11

Serious falling-out between Israel’s Barak and Washington over peace track
DEBKAfile’s Washington and Israeli sources report that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the three US generals, who act as US envoys for the Israel-Palestinian peace track have accused Israel’s defense minister Ehud Barak of sabotaging Rice’s Middle East policy objectives. This accusation was first raised by Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

In protest against what he considered these officials’ anti-Israel positions, Barak absented himself from a meeting Friday, March 14, in Jerusalem with US Gen. William Fraser and Palestinian PM Salam Fayyad. Instead, he sent Amos Gilead, senior political adviser at the defense ministry.

Gilead said that the minister was not scheduled to attend, but our sources confirm that at previous encounters of this sort Barak represented Israel in person.

The defense minister complained that Gen. Keith Dayton, one of the three US envoys, leveled harsh criticism against him personally and Israel’s defense community in general at a gathering of US consular staff serving in Israel.

According to our sources, Dayton faulted Israel on three points:

1. Israel, he said, was not giving Palestinian security and intelligence organs a chance to act in an orderly and continuous manner in the A areas of the West Bank under their control. This prevented the Palestinian Authority from exercising its authority over West Bank towns and rooting out terrorist structures, while strengthening Hamas elements and helping them build strongholds that would undermine Abbas.

2. Systematic Israel military operations in West Bank towns are driving wanted terrorists, criminal gangs and lawbreakers into Israel-controlled B and C areas in search of asylum. Gen. Dayton insinuated that the current anarchy in the West Bank was down to Israel, which he blamed for the inability of Abbas and Fayad to take charge of the territory.

3. The American general told the US diplomats that Ehud Barak and his defense establishment had spurned repeated American requests for a set of new security measures to be introduced on the West Bank as peace negotiations went forward.

A diplomatic source present at the meeting was convinced that Gen. Dayton’s severe remarks were backed by the secretary of state. Barak is reported by DEBKAfile’s military sources to have angrily rejected the US general’s charges and remarked such complaints should have been properly addressed to him, not laid before officials not directly involved in the Israel-Palestinian dialogue, some of whom are openly hostile to Israel. Those military sources also noted that Gen. Dayton had still not accomplished his mission to establish an effective Palestinian anti-terror force for the Ramallah government. That appears to be at the bottom of the controversy.

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Postby Tilak » 16 Mar 2008 23:46

Jew Town’s disappearing community
Ines Ehrlich
03.16.08, 08:44 / Israel Jewish Scene
> Pics : Included in the above site

The once thriving congregation of the Pardesi synagogue has dwindled to the last seven Jews

[quote]Our tour of Kerala, in the southern part of India, brought us to Fort Cochin. Since ancient times Kerala has been the center of the Indian spice trade where Greeks, Romans, Jews, Arabs and Chinese vied for its trade. According to legend, the first Jews arrived here in 70CE, just after the destruction of the second Temple.

The Maharaja of Travancore and Cochin gave shelter to the Jewish community here after the Moorish Arabs attacked them in 1524 due to their trade monopoly. They were given an area right opposite the Maharajah’s palace, which subsequently became known as Jew Town. It was here, at the end of a narrow cobbled road that they built the Pardesi synagogue in 1568.


It is one of the oldest synagogues in the world and has functioned undisturbed throughout the ages. According to the seven Jews left in Jew Town today, no other society in the world has embraced Jews with such hospitality, allowing them to live in peace and mutual respect for so long.


The gate of the Pardesi Synagogue (Photos: Ines Ehrlich)

The Cochin Jews were comprised of two groups: The largest were known as the “Meyuhassimâ€

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Postby Keshav » 17 Mar 2008 01:39

That was a great article, Tilak, but the comment section doesn't mean much. It would've been better if a Jew had reached out for the connections, but it sounds like "Isa Das" is probably Hindu to start with.

India should spread the message about its lack of anti-Semitism. The fact that we are the only country in the world that welcomed them shows a lot about Hindu culture.

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Postby Tilak » 17 Mar 2008 01:42

Keshav wrote:but the comment section doesn't mean much. It would've been better if a Jew had reached out for the connections, but it sounds like "Isa Das" is probably Hindu to start with.

:roll:
"Equality Based On The Soul"
World Peace and Spiritual Advancement
Based on the Common Understanding of the Soul
"Glick has culled Judaic mystical literature and found striking parallels in Hinduism, Gaudiya Vaishnavism in particular"
Dr. Nathan Katz

by W L Glick (Isa Das)
8)

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Postby shyamd » 17 Mar 2008 06:29

Merkel Recognizes Israel’s Capital – But Opposes Military Steps against Iran
[quote] .........It caps the drive she launched soon after she assumed the chancellorship in 2006 to carve a place for Germany on the Middle East map, to which end Berlin has tightened its political and military ties with the Gulf states and Israel.

The German hand in the region is cautious and discreet.

At the end of the Israel-Hizballah war in 2006, a German contingent was added to the UN peacekeeping force in South Lebanon. Later, the unit was withdrawn, but a German flotilla continues to cruise Lebanese waters.

German agents participate in the Western intelligence and security protecting the anti-Syrian Lebanese prime minister Fouad Siniora; they are also involved in the security monitoring set-up in the making for cutting down Syrian arms smuggling into Lebanon.

A key component of Berlin’s Middle East disposition is the highly-developed military and intelligence relations with Jerusalem. They include the sale to Israel of German Dolphin assault submarines for its navy.

Before her visit, Merkel stated: "The threats to which the Israeli state is exposed are also threats to us.â€

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Postby Scofield » 18 Mar 2008 05:16

http://www.shin-tech.org.il/

Israel's Shin Bet launches Blog....8)

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Postby svinayak » 02 Apr 2008 11:18

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 021021.htm

Israel a reliable partner: Sushma Swaraj

Jerusalem (PTI): Describing Left's opposition to India's strategic relationship with Israel as an extension of its "anti-US" stance, senior BJP leader Sushma Swaraj has said that the Jewish state was a "reliable partner", and that the current government acknowledged it.

"The Left parties are basically anti-US and therefore all those countries which are seen as allies of Washington are disliked by them. They do not like whatever America does while we look at things on a case to case basis with regard to the United States," Swaraj, on a three-day visit to Israel as the chairperson of Indo-Israel Parliamentary Friendship Group, told PTI.

"We are not anti-US in principle but we oppose its policies which are against India's interest. We do not oppose anything just because it is done by America," she said.

Swaraj stressed that ruling Congress-led government had not compromised on the "continuity in the foreign policy" with regard to ties with Israel despite pressures from Left.

Lauding Israel for "demonstrating its reliability during the Kargil war", the BJP leader said that India felt confident that its trust won't be let down.

"This is also one of the reasons why the current government has not accepted the demands of the Left parties", she said, adding that the concerns of Communists could not be seen as "legitimate".

The Left parties have been constantly asking the UPA government to severe military ties with Israel.

However, as of now, India stands as the largest buyer of Israeli arms and the chiefs of the three defence forces have also visited the country during the last two years.

Highlighting a strong economic relationship between the two nations, Swaraj said that bilateral trade between the two countries had registered an impressive growth reaching the USD 3.3 billion-mark.

Also, the recent visit by Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar, who was accompanied by chief ministers of three states, had seen an enhanced cooperation in the sector where India can benefit a lot from the Israeli experience, she said.

The Indian legislator held wide-ranging discussions with her Israeli counterpart Isaac Ben and other lawmakers including Michael Eitan and former deputy defence minister Ephraim Sneh.

"There is a lot of warmth in relationship between the two countries which were clearly reflected in all my meetings", Swaraj said, adding that BJP had backed diplomatic ties with Israel since Jan Sangh days.

She also rejected the charge that NDA government had "bowed down to pressures" in the Kandahar episode.

Asked why the government didn't do an 'Entebbe' kind of a rescue, the senior BJP leader said "the two incidents cannot be seen in the same context".

"As far as the Kandahar incident is concerned, lives of 160 passengers were at stake. The media had also put a lot of pressure saying that their lives were in danger and a sort of consensus had evolved. Both the incidents cannot be seen compared", Swaraj said.

Operation Entebbe was a rescue mission carried out by the Israel Defence Forces at Entebbe Airport in Uganda on July four, 1976 in which four hostages out of 246 passengers were killed and five Israeli commandos were wounded.

"Two incidents are never the same. If we recall the kind of joy we saw in the country when these people were released. We cannot draw right conclusions if we detach it from the context and compare it with something else today", she added.

On her party's prospects in the next general elections, Swaraj sounded quite upbeat pointing towards the results of the recent assembly elections.

"During the last two years there have been elections in 11 different states and if we analyse them then Congress hasn't won elections in any one of them", she noted.


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India, Israel developing unmanned helicopter

Postby pranab » 02 Apr 2008 14:31

India, Israel developing unmanned helicopter

JERUSALEM: India and Israel have begun joint development of an unmanned helicopter capable of operating in severe weather conditions, local media has reported.

The chopper will have an automated takeoff and landing systems for use on unprepared fields on land and from aircraft carriers at sea.

Being developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Israel Aerospace Industries' unmanned air vehicle division, Malat, the helicopter will also have a dual automated sophisticated operating systems for enhanced safety, business daily Globes reported.

The helicopter was unveiled at an air show in India last month, it said.

The unmanned helicopter meant primarily for use by the navy will carry payloads such as day-and-night-imaging systems and various radar systems.

Its main advantage over unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) is its ability to takeoff from and land anywhere, including from ships, the report added.


LINK


Great News..Dont know wat other secret projects r going on between the two..
:eek:

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Postby Tilak » 04 Apr 2008 04:09

Israel a reliable partner: Sushma Swaraj
The Chindu

Jerusalem (PTI): Describing Left's opposition to India's strategic relationship with Israel as an extension of its "anti-US" stance, senior BJP leader Sushma Swaraj has said that the Jewish state was a "reliable partner", and that the current government acknowledged it.

"The Left parties are basically anti-US and therefore all those countries which are seen as allies of Washington are disliked by them. They do not like whatever America does while we look at things on a case to case basis with regard to the United States," Swaraj, on a three-day visit to Israel as the chairperson of Indo-Israel Parliamentary Friendship Group, told PTI.

"We are not anti-US in principle but we oppose its policies which are against India's interest. We do not oppose anything just because it is done by America," she said.

Swaraj stressed that ruling Congress-led government had not compromised on the "continuity in the foreign policy" with regard to ties with Israel despite pressures from Left.

Lauding Israel for "demonstrating its reliability during the Kargil war", the BJP leader said that India felt confident that its trust won't be let down.

"This is also one of the reasons why the current government has not accepted the demands of the Left parties", she said, adding that the concerns of Communists could not be seen as "legitimate".

The Left parties have been constantly asking the UPA government to severe military ties with Israel.

However, as of now, India stands as the largest buyer of Israeli arms and the chiefs of the three defence forces have also visited the country during the last two years.

Highlighting a strong economic relationship between the two nations, Swaraj said that bilateral trade between the two countries had registered an impressive growth reaching the USD 3.3 billion-mark.

Also, the recent visit by Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar, who was accompanied by chief ministers of three states, had seen an enhanced cooperation in the sector where India can benefit a lot from the Israeli experience, she said.

The Indian legislator held wide-ranging discussions with her Israeli counterpart Isaac Ben and other lawmakers including Michael Eitan and former deputy defence minister Ephraim Sneh.

"There is a lot of warmth in relationship between the two countries which were clearly reflected in all my meetings", Swaraj said, adding that BJP had backed diplomatic ties with Israel since Jan Sangh days.

She also rejected the charge that NDA government had "bowed down to pressures" in the Kandahar episode.

Asked why the government didn't do an 'Entebbe' kind of a rescue, the senior BJP leader said "the two incidents cannot be seen in the same context".

"As far as the Kandahar incident is concerned, lives of 160 passengers were at stake. The media had also put a lot of pressure saying that their lives were in danger and a sort of consensus had evolved. Both the incidents cannot be seen compared", Swaraj said.

Operation Entebbe was a rescue mission carried out by the Israel Defence Forces at Entebbe Airport in Uganda on July four, 1976 in which four hostages out of 246 passengers were killed and five Israeli commandos were wounded.

"Two incidents are never the same. If we recall the kind of joy we saw in the country when these people were released. We cannot draw right conclusions if we detach it from the context and compare it with something else today", she added.

On her party's prospects in the next general elections, Swaraj sounded quite upbeat pointing towards the results of the recent assembly elections.

"During the last two years there have been elections in 11 different states and if we analyse them then Congress hasn't won elections in any one of them", she noted.

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Postby Igorr » 05 Apr 2008 13:48

Scofield wrote:http://www.shin-tech.org.il/

Israel's Shin Bet launches Blog....8)

Ha-ha-ha, one of the blogger is a women. She explained why sh's come to work in Shabak: interesting work, good selary blah-blah-blah... So, one of the Israelis with name Ran, answered her in very sceptical way. i only want to bring here his opinion:

×

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Postby Kati » 08 Apr 2008 08:45

Jews from Kochi croon for US audience
- melody bond


K.P. NAYAR, The Telegraph, Kolkata, April 8, 2008

Nirit Singers perform Songs of Zion
Washington, April 7: Jews from Kochi who migrated to Israel in large numbers 54 years ago are adding a new dimension to the strong bonds between America’s powerful Jewish community and Indian Americans here this week.

Nirit Singers, a group founded in Israel by a Jewish Malayali to revive and promote traditional songs of Kochi Jews, began a series of performances and academic discussions in Washington yesterday.

The US tour of the group — its first since Nirit Singers was started in Israel by Galia Hacco eight years ago — will give a major push to pioneering efforts by anthropologist Barbara Johnson of Ithaca College, New York, three decades ago to save Malayalam Jewish songs from extinction.

Scaria Zacharia, who retired last year as professor and head of the Malayalam department at Sree Sankara University of Sanskrit in Kalady, Kerala, told The Telegraph last night that the group’s programme in the US represented the internationalisation of a campaign to bring the “Malayalam language back to Israelâ€

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Postby satya » 04 May 2008 23:28

The Golan Heights Will Remain Israel's Strategic Bulwark

Ankara's mediation efforts yielded result on April 24 when Israel announced that it was ready to give up the stategic Golan Heights to Syria for peace, forty-one years after it occupied the area in 1967. It was Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan who passed the news to Syrian President on his visit to Damascus. Although this is not the first time, that rumors of concessions to Syria's presidents abound in Israel, its seems that Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has focused on a deal with Damascus to bolster his flagging political stance, which is in constant decline since the 2006 Lebanon War.
But there is growing opposition to Olmert's move, which is regarded largely as an opportunistic spin, rather than a serious strategic turnabout in the enigmatic relations with Syria. Even in Olmert's own party there are cabinet ministers who already raised eyebrows. Prominent among these is former IDF chief of staff and defense minister Shaul Mofaz who openly warned, that giving Syria the Golan Heights will mean bringing Iran onto Israel's most topographically sensitive borders. Syria being a very central and dominant component of the radical axis, any handover of the Golan Heights to them means deploying Iranian military elements, sooner or later, on the Golan Heights overlooking Israel's vulnerable north. A combined Iranian backed threat, from Hezbollah along the Lebanon border and Iranian bolstered Syrian forces, could present a dangerous threat to engulf the entire Israeli north, with no effective defense line to its West.

Thus, the question is not whether Israel is willing to cede it's hold on the strategic Golan Heights, but if it can afford to do so, without risking it's national security - by actually inviting an irreconcilable foe, like a Syria-Iran military combination, to exploit it's first opportunity to strike a mortal blow on Israel's north.

Syrian president Bashar Assad cannot be trusted in any way. The young leader worships extremists - like Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah and Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - encourages violent means, like brutal assassinations of his opponents in Lebanon and even in his own country. In contrast to his utterly shrewd and ruthless, but extremely politically wise father Hafez Assad, young Bashar asserts his power-base by irresponsible actions, which have already cost his nation most of it's political and economic assets in Lebanon and, among the Sunni Muslim leaders who had counted Syria as one of their own. Now devoid of their support, Bashar has maneuvered his country as Iran's subservient nation. To trust such a dubious and dangerous leader would spell sheer disaster to Israel's security.

But the ultimate reasons for Israel's not ceding the Golan Heights should be based on geo-stratgic facts: Above the Sea of Galilee rises an escarpment, its height ranging from 800 to 100 meters altitude known as the Golan Heights, towering over the Jordan rift valley to its west. It covers a total area of some 900 square kilometers. These heights are characterized by a ridge of volcanic hills that erupted few thousands years ago, creating a plateau made of layers of hard basalt rocks. This terrain makes cross-country movement difficult. Dominating the area is 2814 meter high Mount Hermon, creating a mountain providing excellent observation of the entire region, up to the Damascus Basin to the east, only some 60 kilometers away. To the west, it also dominates the entire Israeli Galilee, up the Haifa Bay on the Mediterranean.

The so-called "Purple Line" established after the ceasefire that followed the Six Day War, June 10th, 1967 provided an excellent line of defense for Israel, located mostly along the watershed and enabling long range observation posts from a line of volcanic hills, on which the IDF established strategic electronic surveillance stations. On the other hand, from pure strategic view, the same Golan Heights contribute almost nothing to the defense of Syria's capital Damascus. A glimpse at the map indicates that due to topographical features to its west, Damascus can best be defended along the Awaj River near Sasa and the 'Leja', the volcanic stony deserts to the south, both impassable to military traffic. Any defense further west, including the Golan Heights can be outflanked, as the IDF did during the latter stages of the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

Furthermore, there is also another highly critical element to be considered - Israel's vital water supply sources. Although the core issue of the Arab-Israeli conflict has always been the Palestine question, water has been a continuous matter of dispute that is intrinsically linked to it because half of Israel’s water demands are being met outside of its internationally recognized borders. Indeed, water has become a major factor in all past disputes, especially over the Golan Heights. Thus, any serious peace negotiations with Syria must eventually focus on Israel's price tag over its irreplaceable water resources on the Golan Heights.

The geographical facts are stark and simple: The Golan water-shed is the source for more than 55 percent of Israel’s fresh water needs and forms part of the main aquifer-system that supplies Israel with most of their water supply. Together with the Jordan river headwaters originating near the disputed "Sheeba Farms" in south Lebanon, Wazzani springs, the Hasbani and Banyas, are all receiving their main sources from the area of Mt. Hermon. It should be stressed that most of the tributary streams flowing into the Jordan and Lake Tiberias originate on the Golan slopes. As past history conflicts over these water disputes demonstrated, only an Israeli presence in the basins of these streams can assure their continued flow to Lake Tiberias. In contrast to Israel's irreplaceable water lifeline from the Golan Heights basin to the river Jordan below, Syria obtains approximately 85 percent of the renewable water supplies from two of the Middle-East's largest rivers - the Tigris and Euphrates flowing through its east and center regions, while and the river Orontes irrigates large parts of northern Syria. Indeed, Syria has an ongoing dispute with Turkey over it's northern water resources - which in the past nearly came on the brink of war.

Another major element in any future peace negotiations between Syria and Israel will be the dispute over the so-called "Line of 4 June 1967", depicting the uncharted border that existed before the Six Day War. This issue has become part of the Arab-Israeli peace process lexicon, for years. It encapsulates the extent of the withdrawal demanded of Israel by Syria in the context of any peace treaty. Conceptually, the line of 4 June 1967 was the confrontation line, on the day before the outbreak of the 5 June 1967 war. Here again shortsighted geo-political constraints became a dangerous source of mortal conflict.

Only along one short 15-kilometer stretch did this dubious line correspond with the international boundary between Palestine and Syria instituted by Great Britain and France in 1923. Neither did it correspond to the mutually agreed UN brokered Armistice Demarcation Line agreed to by the parties in 1949, after the first Arab Israeli war. In fact, the root of the Arab-Israeli water issue can be traced back to 9 March 1916, when the Sykes-Picot Agreement was signed between the British and the French

The Syria-Palestine boundary (later Israel) itself was a product of the post World War I Anglo-French partition of Ottoman Syria. It was intentionally demarcated so that all of Lake Tiberias, including a ridiculous "ten-meter wide" strip of beach along its northeastern shore, would stay inside Palestine. Under the terms of an armistice signed on 20 July 1949, Syrian forces were to withdraw east of the old Palestine-Syria boundary. Israeli forces were to refrain from entering the evacuated areas, which would become a demilitarized zone. However, following incessant armed clashes over these territorial ambiguities, Israel, feeling constantly threatened by the dominating Golan Heights over the Jordan Valley rift, started a creeping annexation of the disputed territory, which ended only with the occupation of the entire Golan Heights after 1967. Israeli claimed sovereignty over Demilitarized military zone (DMZ), on the basis that, "it was always part and parcel of the British Mandated Territory". The conflict over the Golan waters culminated in 1964, when Syria decided, unilaterally, to tap two of the sources Jordan river sources, diverting the Hasbani and Banyas from their natural flow into Israel, leading their waters to a planned reservoir on the Yarmouk river, on their southern border with Jordan. Israel immediately retaliated sharply by armed force destroying the Syrian construction first by long-range precision tank fire and later, as the Syrians shifted their work further eastward, with massive air-strikes. A few years later the Six Day War broke out, capturing the Golan Heights in June 1967.

Even this strange distinctiveness is not the only anomaly in this highly sensitive region. Due to its geo-strategic topography, Israel's northern border poses some serious challenge to its defensive posture. What is known as the "Galilee Panhandle", an area which pokes like a finger from the Hula valley northward up to the Lebanese border, is a curious geographical phenomenon, created as result of hasty, shortsighted decisions made by the French and British planners, following their victory over the Ottoman empire after WW1. The facts of this political fiasco are apparent to even the most impartial observer. On its west, the Panhandle leans on a mountain range, only partially under Israeli sovereignty, the rest is Lebanon. (Over this very ground was fought last summer's Second Lebanon War, with disastrous consequences, partly due to topographical constraints.) Merely five to seven kilometers in width along its northern part, the Panhandle is dominated on its east by the towering Golan Heights and Mt. Hermon, from which, Israeli villages were constantly bombarded by Syrian artillery located on the overlooking slopes.

Under the present circumstances prevailing in this region, should Israel deprive itself of its most important strategic asset for a mere piece of paper, signed by a single leader, would be a strategic mistake, having serious consequences to any future negative change in Middle Eastern affairs. In fact, Syria's national interests are focused not only on the Golan Heights, which represent only an insignificant part of its entire territory. Syria's long-term strategic aims are to exert its hegemony over Lebanon and Israel's northern territory and even part of northern Jordan, which it considers part of their strategic aspirations over "Greater Syria" predominance.
One of the options being proposed by the Baker-Hamilton report is to place US forces to mentor a future Syria-Israel peace deal over the Golan Heights, following Israel's withdrawal. Part of this would be US experts taking charge of the IDF monitoring stations on Mt. Hermon and the overlooking border hills. As real-time intelligence in modern warfare is regarded imperative in early warning relinquishing these highly strategic assets, even under a friendly monitored replacement could become a crucial matter of national security. For example, During Operation Desert Storm, US intelligence on Iraqi Scud launch zones in western Iraq, vital to Israel, was denied even when Saddam's missiles impacted on Tel Aviv. But there are other reasons for Israel's reluctance to place US forces on the Golan. The presence of US forces in harms way to guard Israel against hostile infiltrations and subsequent preventive counter-guerrilla operations by the IDF could lead to unnecessary tension between the two allied nations.

In conclusion, the Golan Heights represents a vital strategic asset for Israel's security, especially in view of the current political developments in the region. The danger of the so-called Shi'ite Crescent engulfing Israel from its north and north-eastern border, with a Hezbollah dominated and Iranian-backed Lebanese Government, places Israel, should it cede the Golan Heights to Syria, before a strategic disaster: a potential confrontation on indefensible borders, with a Syrian-Iranian-Hezbollah military alliance. Thus apart from being defensive in its nature, the Golan Heights not only safeguards Israel's north, but deters, by the IDF long range reach into the Damascus basin, to deter any offensive options, which Bashar Assad may consider to regain the Heights by force even under an Iranian umbrella, will become a highly dangerous adventure.



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Postby archan » 04 May 2008 23:59

Coming back to the 2006 war, I never heard about those abducted Israeli soldiers, were they freed?

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Postby Surya » 05 May 2008 00:07

If the golan is ever attempted to be returned - it will cause a civil war in Israel.

Having been there I have no wish to see that returned to the Syrians.

It is even more strategic than Haji pir which we returned and are paying for ever since

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Postby Sanku » 06 May 2008 13:05

Israel, at 60, shows admirable grit

Israel, at 60, shows admirable grit


Our newspapers and 24x7 news channels went gaga over Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's stopover in New Delhi last Tuesday. Given the exuberant, almost fawning, media coverage accorded to Mr Ahmadinejad, it would seem as if a great friend of India had come visiting although we didn't quite deserve this honour, having stabbed Iran in the back, so to say, at the behest of the 'Great Satan', otherwise known as the United States of America.

Such is the Left's influence on the media and the awesome disregard of our intellectuals -- or what passes for intellectuals -- who straddle newspapers and television channels, for India's strategic interests, that nobody has bothered to point out that a nuclear armed Iran is something we can do without. If Mr Ahmadinejad, with more than a little help from Russia and China, not to mention Pakistan's rogue nuclear establishment, is able to enrich sufficient uranium to produce an arsenal of nuclear warheads, Israel alone won't have reason to worry.

We have also elected to ignore the fact that Iran has been consistent in voting against India at the OIC even while pretending to be a 'friendly' nation. At the UN, rare is the occasion when Iran has made common cause with India, although the reverse is not true. It does not require evidence collated by the US to assert that Iran is currently forging a Shia brand of radical Islamism, much more insidious and potent than the pernicious ideology bequeathed by Sayyid Qutb to the Ikhwan al-Muslimeen, with the purpose of becoming the dominant Islamic state by displacing traditional Sunni powers. In the short term this may not affect India, but in the long term it is bound to scorch us.

Nor has anybody bothered to point out that while India needs Iranian oil (and perhaps also Iranian gas), an increasingly isolated and cash-strapped Iran needs an emerging market to mobilise resources. At a time when Western democracies are loath to do business with Mr Ahmadinejad's regime, selling oil and gas to India makes eminent sense for Iran. Yes, it also makes eminent sense for India to leverage Iran's troubles to its advantage, but that would require a certain craftiness which is absent in those who preside over India's destiny. If this is true of the Congress, it is equally true of the BJP. The Left, of course, craftily conspires against India's national interests. The others really do not matter.

Meanwhile, Amit Baruah, writing in the Hindustan Times about Mr Ahmadinejad's visit, mentions something that does not figure in the other glowing reports that appeared in last Wednesday's newspapers. "In his opening remarks, Mr Ahmadinejad once again questioned the extent of the Holocaust against the Jews in World War II and felt this was used as a pretext to occupy Palestine," Amit Baruah says in his report, adding, "He also raised questions about the 9/11 terrorist attacks and felt these acted as an excuse to occupy both Iraq and Afghanistan."

Amit Baruah is a senior journalist and there is no reason to doubt the veracity of his report. Indeed, the fact that others chose not to incorporate Mr Ahmadinejad's odious anti-Semitic rant in their reports tells a story by itself -- of how our media is careful to excise those comments that may reflect poorly on individuals it places on a high pedestal. Not surprisingly, Amit Baruah's report has been picked up by Islamist Websites.

The man who now leads and inspires born-again Nazis and would like to see the remaining Jews exterminated and Israel "wiped off the face of the world" is not as daft as some people make him out to be. He used his stopover in New Delhi to repeat his outrageous lies -- that the Holocaust is Jewish fiction, Jews masterminded 9/11, and Israel is an illegitimate entity -- steeped in anti-Semitism on the eve of Holocaust Memorial Day. He needed a platform and we, to our abiding shame, provided him with one.

Will we now onward allow any and every visitor to berate another nation from our soil? What if someone were to use his or her interaction with the media to denounce China and question the legitimacy of its occupation of Tibet? Have we become so soft a state that nothing matters any more? Is our foreign policy now bereft of all morals, scruples and ethics that were once considered central to our civilisational identity as a nation, as a people?

In sharp contrast to our inability to stand up and be counted, and thus be courted for our inherent strength and power, Israel remains firm as a rock in its determination to succeed against all odds. Unlike India, it is just a dot on the map, a small country that can be traversed between sunrise and sunset. Yet it is a giant among nations, ferocious in war and magnanimous in peace. In the last 15 years, ever since we established diplomatic relations, it has done nothing that can be even remotely considered to be against India's interests. Yet we are reluctant to acknowledge this friendship and stand by it.

On May 8, Israel will celebrate the 60th anniversary of its independence. During these six decades, indeed, from the time David Ben-Gurion declared Israel's independence, it has been at war with its implacable Arab foes, fighting for its survival. But that has not stopped it from emerging as a power to contend with, a David among Goliaths who won't rest till the last drop of Jewish blood has been shed. It has been the victim of unceasing calumny and perversion of history by those who blindly support the tribe of Mr Ahmadinejad and endorse their anti-Semitism.

British journalist and author Melanie Phillips, in a scintillating essay published in the latest issue of the Spectator, pithily sums up Israel's heroic struggle: "On the day after Ben-Gurion declared (Israel's) independence, six Arab armies invaded and tried to wipe it out. With the current exception of Egypt and Jordan, the Arab and Muslim world has been trying ever since... At present, the situation looks particularly ominous. Israel is menaced on several fronts...".

It is Iran which has taken over from the Arabs. In Lebanon, it is funding and arming Hizbullah whose leader Hassan Nasrallah is sworn to Israel's destruction. In Gaza, it is nursing Hamas whose army of fanatics has declared it won't rest till the last Jew is dead. In Syria, Iran is working over time to keep anti-Israeli sentiments alive. All this while building a Bomb to "wipe Israel off the face of the world" and achieve what Nasser failed in achieving 60 years ago.

Such is the 'friend' of India our media fetes.


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Postby Anujan » 11 May 2008 20:11

I dont know if rakshaks are aware of this monthly publication from American Jewish Committee (called commentary magazine). The articles I skimmed through are very well written with a well selected and informed "Letters to the editor" section. For example there is an article titled "Is India an Ally" (asked from an american-jewish and subtle Israeli perspective) for which this letter to the editor is enlightening (It strikes a bit close to the heart, but is largely an accurate statement of Indians' attitudes today).

[quote]Sadanand Dhume has done an excellent job updating the status of the often complex relationship between India and the U.S, and he gives reason to believe that the countries’ shared democratic values will bring them closer in the coming years [“Is India an Ally?,â€

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Postby Rye » 11 May 2008 20:40

Thanks, lakshmic. That site has an article again Putin and Russia -- what is missing in that letter is the acknowledgement that India and Russia are going to be partners in a energy supplier/consumer relationship in the long term and the rest of the world better get used to it. India's energy needs come above playing "games" around the globe and making a mess out of human existence. (worthless states like Pakistan are the "lynchpins" in such games, apparently, which alone should tell us what these games are worth).

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Postby Anujan » 11 May 2008 21:45

Rye wrote:Thanks, lakshmic. That site has an article again Putin and Russia -- what is missing in that letter is the acknowledgement that India and Russia are going to be partners in a energy supplier/consumer relationship in the long term and the rest of the world better get used to it. India's energy needs come above playing "games" around the globe and making a mess out of human existence. (worthless states like Pakistan are the "lynchpins" in such games, apparently, which alone should tell us what these games are worth).

Rye-saar,
The magazine is subscription only. But I work for someone who has subscription for most such interesting magazines. I cant post articles in full, but here is an excerpt from "Is India an Ally"

Perhaps nowhere is India's makeover more striking than in the realm of diplomatic relations with the West. Through most of the cold war, U.S.-India ties were frosty and often antagonistic. Today, it is hard to find an American political observer on either side of the ideological spectrum who is not favorably disposed to the new global player. In a 2006 article in Foreign Affairs, Ashton B. Carter, Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy during the Clinton administration, hailed India as "a strategically located democratic country of growing economic importance" and endorsed the Bush administration's overtures to New Delhi. Henry Kissinger has said that "the geopolitical objectives of India … are quite parallel to ours." Christopher Hitchens, writing in the Manhattan Institute's City Journal, asserts that India is "crucial to our struggle against jihadism, as well as to our management of the balance of power with China." Charles Krauthammer has argued that the U.S. should make India a central ally and nominate it for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

How firm is the foundation on which these hopes lie?

Since Gaining its independence from Britain in 1947, India has taken a largely parallel approach to economics on the one hand and international politics on the other. The country's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, was a Brahmin and a Fabian Socialist with a patrician disdain for business. ("Profit," he once remarked, is a word "I consider dirty.")

In theory, the NAM was intended to keep New Delhi independent of both Moscow and Washington. In practice, beginning with India's failure to condemn the Soviet Union's 1956 invasion of Hungary, both the movement's worldview and its rhetoric tilted conspicuously toward the Kremlin. This, along with the stark Dullesian division of the world into friend or foe, helps explain the frigid state of U.S.-India relations for many years, and the contrasting warmth of America's embrace of a much more pliant Pakistan.

Side by side with this opening-up of India's economy have come changes in attitudes toward the West. Indians today are among the most pro-American people in Asia. A recent Pew Center survey of "global attitudes" found that about six in ten Indians hold a favorable view of the United States

There is more. India's longstanding feud with Pakistan, and its experience with outbreaks of Muslim violence at home, are said to have given it a special sensitivity to the problem of radical Islam, something that Western countries have only recently awakened to. Home to the world's second-largest Muslim population, India offers an example to democracies struggling to integrate their own Muslims, and a rebuke to those who argue that democracy and Islam are incompatible.

Finally, India shares America's concerns about the rise of China

Then there is the China question. Despite confident predictions that India will surpass the People's Republic, it is no less plausible that, twenty years from now, China's economic, military, and cultural heft will so dwarf India's that comparisons between the two countries will have become altogether meaningless.This, coupled with the demands of domestic politics, could cause India to slip back definitively into its historical comfort zone as an almost reflexively anti-Western power with an officially non-aligned policy — only this time calibrated to tiptoe around Beijing's sensitivities rather than Moscow's.

A MAJOR consideration here is, of course, the risk of riling India's 150-million-strong Muslim minority, among whom is the world's second-largest population of Shiites (after Iran).

Unlike in Western democracies, Muslims in India are permitted by law to be governed by shari'a in civil matters like marriage, divorce, and inheritance. A consequence of this autonomy has been the development of parallel societies in ghettoized enclaves of the sort that today's Dutch, British, and French have begun scrambling to contain. Most of India's Muslim middle class emigrated to Pakistan at partition 60 years ago; in much of the community that remained, cultural markers of backwardness like high birthrates and an aversion to the education of females have persisted. As a result, Muslim literacy rates and incomes lag behind the national average.

In a survey of Indian Muslims conducted by the U.S.-based Pakistani scholar Akbar Ahmed, a majority picked as their contemporary role models Maududi, the 19th-century Muslim supremacist Sayyed Ahmad Khan, and an influential Bombay-based cleric named Zakir Naik, who publicly praises Osama bin Laden and calls for all Indians to be governed by shari'a.

Indeed, in recent years more civilians have been killed in India as a result of Islamic terror than in any other country aside from war-torn Afghanistan and Iraq.

AND YET, despite all this, most Indian leftists and secularists persist in the belief that the primary threat to the country's secular fabric remains Hindu nationalism. This may have been a sensible posture 60 years ago, when a newly independent India sought to reassure its Muslims that they would live as equals in a Hindu-majority country.

But the jury remains out on the longer term. Until India is able to view itself and its history dispassionately, reject the twin failures of socialism and non-alignment, modernize its Muslim citizens and bring their aspirations in line with those of the Hindu majority, it will likely remain an under-achiever — and, for the U.S. and the West, an uncertain friend.

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Postby svinayak » 11 May 2008 21:56

lakshmic wrote:I dont know if rakshaks are aware of this monthly publication from American Jewish Committee (called commentary magazine).


http://207.114.86.27/poparticle.php?D=2 ... &ID=216641

#1 Is India an ally? If espousing moronic socialism and moronic socialist rhetoric for most of the last fifty years meant India is not an ally then neither are Britain, Germany, Canada, etc. etc.

The fact India is still largely poor is similarly irrelevant to the argument (though not to its misguided socialism).

India's strength relative to China also a moot point. There are probably no allies of the United States as militarily and economically powerful as China with the possible exception of Japan.

If producing leftist academics means India is not an ally of the United States then the United States is not an ally of the United States.

Finally, the fact our current problems arise at least as much from Deobandism as Wahhabism ignores the fact the Indian government more than any other government on earth has had to confront - and has for the most part successfully confronted - Deobandism. This being Hitchen's and Krauthammer's point.

Sadanand Dhume may have accomplished an ok if plodding introduction to contemporary India for people who know nothing about India but he has in no way addressed the question posed in the title of his essay.

The answer is "yes", btw.

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Israel Link

Postby joshvajohn » 12 May 2008 00:00

Though we have considerable Muslims in India and their interest must be protected and respected, I would certainly support any strategic alliance for India and Israel because it is the need of the hour even to protect our own Muslim familes from the terror hanging over us both internal and external. Israel is naturally an ally because they too have the same difficulties faced similar to us only difference is that they are more powerful than their neigbours and develop plans to strategically destroy anyone who tries to become more powerful than them.
India should try not to irritate such a good relationship by Iranian involvement too much. We must have a decent relationship with Iran but not at the cost of relationship with Israel which is essential. The pipeline with Iran should be postponed or delayed if India get energy from other sources.

May be India can get help from Israel for defence system from Nuclear arsenals or missiles or even to develop other types sharp military equipment.

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Re: Israel Link

Postby Anujan » 12 May 2008 02:29

joshvajohn wrote:Though we have considerable Muslims in India and their interest must be protected and respected, I would certainly support any strategic alliance for India and Israel because it is the need of the hour even to protect our own Muslim familes from the terror hanging over us both internal and external. Israel is naturally an ally because they too have the same difficulties faced similar to us only difference is that they are more powerful than their neigbours and develop plans to strategically destroy anyone who tries to become more powerful than them.
India should try not to irritate such a good relationship by Iranian involvement too much. We must have a decent relationship with Iran but not at the cost of relationship with Israel which is essential. The pipeline with Iran should be postponed or delayed if India get energy from other sources.

May be India can get help from Israel for defence system from Nuclear arsenals or missiles or even to develop other types sharp military equipment.

Joshva,

Mark Twain said Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it,

In foreign relations, due to various reasons (lets not start a discussion about that - hint: gandhi and british), India's position has largely been friendship and enmity based on issues and not on race, religion or ethinicity. (There is a tendency to overdo it, by not even basing it on historical injustices or our own selfish interest, but that is our character flaw we have to live with and is a whole discussion by itself).

India's relationship with Israel and Iran should be seen in this context.

Vis-a-vis Israel, India cannot stand silent when groups like Hezbollah and Hamas spout policies like "wiping Israel off the map" which is nothing but a dark hint of Holocaust Version 2. This has nothing to do with Jews or Muslims, but the fact that India cannot support any entity which espouses genocide. Hence India's support for Israel.

On the flip side, India's support for Israel is not blind, in the sense that India still desires "reasonable accomodation" of palestinians.

Reverting back to India's foreign relations based on issues, there is a reason why India's relationship with Israel is reasonably successful whereas with some Muslim countries it is not. Israel is a political entity (atleast the government is) and Islam is a religion. When India negotiates and conducts its foreign policy with Israel, concept such as fairness, mutual accomodation, mutual benefit and empathy play a role. Whereas nurturing a relationship within the framework of Islam (or relationships with governments who want to negotiate within the framework of Islam) this is impossible. You cannot nurture any kind of relationship with Islamists who want to bomb us and collect their 72 houris and are convinced that this is the absolute truth and a divine duty.

In the context of Iran, India cannot simply antagonize Iran because they are Muslim or because Unkil or Israel dont like Iran. (As an analogy, maybe India should have a great relationship with Pakistan because Chini and Unkil like Pakis very much). In this context, I am sure that Iranians realize that our support and relationship with them is not based on the fact of whether they are muslims or not, but simply based on the fact of whether they are behaving in a sane manner or not. We should send out a message that Ahmadinejad should not expect us to support him when he questions the holocaust and neither will India automatically fall behind Unkil against Iran when Unkil rattles his sabres for his own geopolitical designs.

Only this kind of predictable issue based relationship will be helpful in the long run.

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Postby Philip » 12 May 2008 16:09

Couldn't post this on the day,as was travelling,but better late than never.Congrats to the people and state of Israel on the occasion of their 60th B'day.Mazeltov! I'm sure that scores of Indians wish Israel many more happy occasions in the future,that will DV be celebrated in more peaceful times.Israel has come a long way since its independence,when it was immediately attacked by its neighbours,leading to all these years of strife.Had its neighbours gracefully accepted the UN decison,perhaps we would not have the burning Palestinian problem on our hands.

The two outstanding issues to bring about a lasting peace are the solution to the Palestinain problem-here a separate state has already been agreed upon and only the contours of the entity have to finalised and the return of the Golan Heights to Syria while ensuring Israel's security thereafter,perhaps some adjusting of the border.The international community should work together to quieten the hotheads of the Hamas and the Hiz,letting them put their words about "peace" with Israel to the test.There is an opportunity now that shouldn't be missed.

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Postby shyamd » 17 May 2008 00:34

Hizbul to Target Israeli Intelligence Agents in Kashmir
Srinagar, May 14: The chief commander of the pro-Pakistan militant group, Hizbul Mujahideen has claimed that the group will target the Mossad agents coming into Kashmir under the false pretense of being tourists.

In an interview with a Srinagar based news gathering agency, the chief commander of Hizbul, Syed Salah-ud-Din said that the group welcomes tourists to Kashmir.

He, however, was quick to add that the militant group would not shy away from attacking the Israeli and Indian intelligence agents.

"We will target such agents and will not allow them roam freely in Kashmir", he said.

The Hizbul's chief commander claims that Israeli soldiers have been helping Indian troops in Kashmir in their fight against the militants.

It is pertinent to mention here that in the early 1990s there was an incident where the militants of Hizbul Mujahideen targeted Israeli tourists.

Fayaz Wani reports on life in Srinagar, Kashmir.


Israeli co-operation with India, is with the department within the Mossad called Tevel, which organises seminars etc for Indian intel operatives. The view in the agency is that Kashmir is one big west bank.

Tevel also liaises with intel agencies of islamic countries and other nations who do not want overt co-operation.

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Postby Avinash R » 17 May 2008 13:08

yeesh israeli agents are crawling all over kashmeer. so hisbull is getting an itch to kill them. and what happened to those american green berets that these hisbull terrorists claimed are in kashmeer to catch osama. are they still there or the afghani opium is too strong this time around.

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Postby shyamd » 22 May 2008 03:33

I just heard that Israel has asked all Israeli citizens in Kashmir to leave immaediatly as they are being targeted by "local Islamists". Looks like the Hizbul threat is being taken seriously and there has probably been info passed on from Indian intel to Israeli's through liaison meetings or through comms interception from both Indian and Israeli side.

Travel advisory:
Israel reiterates northern India travel warnings following terror threat
Israel on Wednesday reiterated the existing travel warnings for Jammu and Kashmir in northern India.

The warning, issued by the National Security Council Counter-Terrorism Bureau (NSCCTB), followed a call by the leadership of a major local terrorist organization to attack Israelis.

The NSCCTB urged Israelis to avoid visiting the area and for those already there to leave immediately.
Last edited by shyamd on 22 May 2008 03:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby GuruPrabhu » 22 May 2008 03:42

Link for the above please sir
Mere Hear say doesn't count for much does it?

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Postby shyamd » 22 May 2008 03:46

You happy?

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Postby Gerard » 01 Jun 2008 17:30

Tzipi Livni: terrorist-hunter secret of woman tipped to lead Israel
The frontrunner to become Israel’s next prime minister, Tzipi Livni, was a Paris agent for Mossad, Israel’s overseas intelligence agency, in the early 1980s when it ran a series of missions to kill Palestinian terrorists in European capitals, according to former colleagues.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 01 Jun 2008 17:56

Gerard wrote:Tzipi Livni: terrorist-hunter secret of woman tipped to lead Israel
The frontrunner to become Israel’s next prime minister, Tzipi Livni, was a Paris agent for Mossad, Israel’s overseas intelligence agency, in the early 1980s when it ran a series of missions to kill Palestinian terrorists in European capitals, according to former colleagues.


It is amazing how many of leaders of the world's great or powerful countries come from military or intelligence backgrounds and hence have a complete understanding of strategic and military matters. Putin was the KGB chief. George Bush was the CIA chief. George Bush junior was a fighter pilot. Most Chinese top leadership today were the Red Guards under Mao or hail from the army. In Israel, the projected PM has been a Mossad agent. These are the countries which are actually following the Varna system of Kshatriyas (warriors) as rulers. In contrast, India is having singers, poets, ghazal composers, book writers, courtiers, academicians, drawing-room debaters and paan waalas as prime ministers and chief ministers. What kind of strategic or military thinking can you expect from such dreamers and intellectuals? Only one in a hundred would turn out to be an exception, such as Sardar Patel.

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Postby vsudhir » 01 Jun 2008 18:11

Sanjay choudhary,

You raise an interesting point. But seems to me a bioased sample based on self-selection is spoiling the inference validity.....

For example, why not include Papistan (and now BD and Nepal) in the list of 'professionally run, kshatriya ruled' countries? They being neighbors with some common traits, may have more to offer in terms of insight for the Indian situation, perhaps....

The country elects its PM indirectly at best. The PM cant be a polyglot (like PVNR was). But he has the NSA and the entire defense-cum-intelligence bureucracy to draw upon when making big decisions. IIRC, MoD vets major decisions that unwittingly or otherwise impinge on national security (such as granting cellphone licenses in J&K etc).

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Postby Mahendra » 01 Jun 2008 18:29

Sudhir Sir

SC's examples are of mostly democratic countries and not banana republics and failed states. Besides I think he is just speaking about the ability of us Indians to elevate people without any real knowledge of geopolitics/ strategy to the top most posts as compared to the other established or emerging powers.
Maybe the MOD vets decisions that impinge on national security, but if the top most decision maker is a bafoon(eg Shri Deve Gowda, or Sri Mulayam Yadav) I dont think the MOD can knock sense into their heads and force them to think beyond their vote based politics.

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Postby asprinzl » 01 Jun 2008 18:56

sanjaychoudhry wrote:It is amazing how many of leaders of the world's great or powerful countries come from military or intelligence backgrounds and hence have a complete understanding of strategic and military matters.


Ehud Barak the General has an impecable resume that very few generals in the world have. Yet, this is the same military hero who bungled like the worst amateur when he ordered the unplanned and uncoordinated withdrawal from Lebanon. It was a total chaos and demoralized the SLA. The better armed and better trained SLA was easily overan by Hezbollah due to collapse of leadership and lack of motivation.

Sharon is one heck of a general too. As a PM, he was a disaster. Look at the result of the withdrawal from Gaza. Strategic thinking?

Putin? Why is Russia still having problems with Georgia? Why is Russia still supporting Muslim majority Abkhazia against Orthodox Georgia? Now, Georgia is pushed into the arms of Nato and Georgia for a long time had been conduit for the Chechen terrorists. And Georgia had been a "conduit" in Turkish economic embargo on pro-Russian Armenia. I thought Putin will clean away many of Yeltsin's mess. Ukraine is another Orthodox nation. Infact, Kiev has been the primal seat of the Orthodox Christianity of Russia and Ukraine for a long time. Ethnically both the people are of the same stock. Why this alienation between the two? Unlike India-PakIsSatan, Russia and Ukraine do not have insurmountable differences. Yet? Did I hear strategic thinking?

Argentina was the fifth richest nation in the world for a long time till the 1940s. It was already an industrial power by then and was even suppoed to be part of the Western Allied forces during the Second World War. General Juan Peron and Evita put an end with their fanciful plans. It will take a very long time before Argentina rises up to its 1930s/1940s position. Strategic thinking? Can we say Malvinas?

Military/Security experience and background does not necessarily make a person great national leader. A great cook does not always make a great restaurant operator. Otherwise, Napolean would not have visited Borodino. A greater leader would have consolidated his nation's gain and sued for general peace. But alas!!! Nearly half a million Frenchmen, Germans, Belgian, Italian and Polish troopers in the Grand Armee had to perish in his ill-fated Russian mis-adventure. Russians still dig up bodies in Grand Armee uniforms.

India needn't look far for examples. There are disasters of Yahya, Ayub, Ziaur Rahman, Ershad and Zia to learn from. Ofcourse the latest would be the monkeys running wild in Myanmar.

Avram

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Postby Gerard » 01 Jun 2008 19:32

How much of the Barak / Sharon mess was due to their desire for a "legacy"?
This also seems to afflict the most unmilitary of leaders (MMS etc)

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Postby Baljeet » 01 Jun 2008 19:47

asprinzl wrote:
sanjaychoudhry wrote:It is amazing how many of leaders of the world's great or powerful countries come from military or intelligence backgrounds and hence have a complete understanding of strategic and military matters.


Ehud Barak the General has an impecable resume that very few generals in the world have. Yet, this is the same military hero who bungled like the worst amateur when he ordered the unplanned and uncoordinated withdrawal from Lebanon. It was a total chaos and demoralized the SLA. The better armed and better trained SLA was easily overan by Hezbollah due to collapse of leadership and lack of motivation.

Sharon is one heck of a general too. As a PM, he was a disaster. Look at the result of the withdrawal from Gaza. Strategic thinking?

Putin? Why is Russia still having problems with Georgia? Why is Russia still supporting Muslim majority Abkhazia against Orthodox Georgia? Now, Georgia is pushed into the arms of Nato and Georgia for a long time had been conduit for the Chechen terrorists. And Georgia had been a "conduit" in Turkish economic embargo on pro-Russian Armenia. I thought Putin will clean away many of Yeltsin's mess. Ukraine is another Orthodox nation. Infact, Kiev has been the primal seat of the Orthodox Christianity of Russia and Ukraine for a long time. Ethnically both the people are of the same stock. Why this alienation between the two? Unlike India-PakIsSatan, Russia and Ukraine do not have insurmountable differences. Yet? Did I hear strategic thinking?

Argentina was the fifth richest nation in the world for a long time till the 1940s. It was already an industrial power by then and was even suppoed to be part of the Western Allied forces during the Second World War. General Juan Peron and Evita put an end with their fanciful plans. It will take a very long time before Argentina rises up to its 1930s/1940s position. Strategic thinking? Can we say Malvinas?

Military/Security experience and background does not necessarily make a person great national leader. A great cook does not always make a great restaurant operator. Otherwise, Napolean would not have visited Borodino. A greater leader would have consolidated his nation's gain and sued for general peace. But alas!!! Nearly half a million Frenchmen, Germans, Belgian, Italian and Polish troopers in the Grand Armee had to perish in his ill-fated Russian mis-adventure. Russians still dig up bodies in Grand Armee uniforms.

India needn't look far for examples. There are disasters of Yahya, Ayub, Ziaur Rahman, Ershad and Zia to learn from. Ofcourse the latest would be the monkeys running wild in Myanmar.

Avram


AVRAM
Right on Point. You forgot to add two more people on the list of that, The so called Leader of the free World--George Dumbya Bush, Spineless Colon Powell.

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Postby Babui » 03 Jun 2008 01:22


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Postby Igorr » 06 Jun 2008 13:44

At the end even Israel tried to corrupt Indians. Who could believe...



Bribery probe jeopardizes $2b India defense deal
Other countries may have an interest in the deal's collapse.
Ran Dagoni, Washington 5 Jun 08 19:34
One of the biggest deals in the history of Israel's defense industries, and the biggest deal in Israel-India trade has run into budgeting difficulties, in the wake of the allegations of bribery involving Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) (TASE: ARSP.B1) and the Indian Defense Ministry, which have been under investigation since October 2006.

Under the deal IAI, which is headed by chairman Yair Shamir and CEO Itzhak Nissan, will supply a defense system, worth a total of around $1.5-2.4 billion, based primarily on upgraded Barak sea-to-sea missiles with a range of 100-150 kilometers - the result of a joint effort by engineers at IAI and India’s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). In addition to the missiles, Israel is also said to be supplying India with launchers, UAVs, and radar systems made by IAI subsidiary Elta, as well as access to Israeli surveillance satellites.

The inquiry, which was opened by The Indian Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) in October 2006 is investigating suspicions that bribes were paid to former Indian Minister of Defense George Fernandes and former Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sushil Kumar in the sale of Barak sea-to-sea missiles worth a total of $270 million to the Indian Navy. A source close to the deal told "Globes" yesterday that negotiations on the deal were continuing and that both sides were continuing their efforts to reach an agreement. He conceded, however, that the talks were taking longer than expected.

According to other sources, there are a number of biased parties in countries such as Russia, Europe, or even in the US, which could pick up shares in the Indian air defense project should Israel be forced out of the picture. They also claim that political elements hostile to Israel could be behind the leaks about the inquiry.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10073

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Postby ranganathan » 06 Jun 2008 13:53

Anyone want to bet the deal will go through irrespective of all the allegation? But its the first time I heard the range of Barak-8 is going to be 100-150 Km. The naval barak was supposed to be 80 km range.

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Israel outsources $100-mn composites for UAVs to India

Postby kidoman » 06 Jun 2008 16:05

Israel outsources $100-mn composites for UAVs to India

In its first major defence export to the country, India has inked a $100-million deal to sell composite materials to Israel for its future generation of mini Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs).

Under the recently signed contract, Indian aviation giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will export lightweight composite materials, manufactured from carbon fibers, to Israel. While the composites are primarily intended for a new Israeli mini UAV project, they will also be used for space applications, Government sources said.

"Israel has outsourced its composite requirements for UAVs to India. The materials will be used for a mini UAV that will fly at an altitude of 10,000 feet," a top MoD official said. The official added that HAL will manufacture the composites from raw material imported from Japan and France.

The composites, similar to the ones being used on India's Advanced Light Helicopters and the Light Combat Aircraft, will significantly reduce the weight of the UAV to give it a longer range and an increased payload.

"There are deficiencies in the field of engines (when it comes to indigenous research and development) but the deal underlines that India is emerging as a leader as far as composite materials are concerned," the official said.

While the export contract comes with no strings attached, the Indian Army is looking at inducting a significant number of mini UAVs for its infantry units in the near future. The Army will soon be floating a global tender to acquire the mini UAVs that can be carried by a single soldier and used for tactical real time battlefield reconnaissance.

Numbers have not been disclosed but the contract is expected to run into thousands of UAVs and is being eyed by several leading manufacturers of Israel, US and Europe. Indian defence giants, including Tata Industries, have also tied up with global players to manufacture the mini UAVs in the country.

The $100-million contract reflects a change in the defence relation with Israel, which till now has been a one-way street with Tel Aviv emerging as India's second largest defence supplier after Russia. Indian military imports from Israel crossed the $1-billion mark for the first time in 2006.

http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=2282

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Postby Neshant » 08 Jun 2008 07:09

> will supply a defense system, worth a total of around $1.5-2.4 billion

wow that is very expensive.


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