Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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VikramS
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by VikramS »

akl wrote:As expected (and indeed in keeping with the norm), Mr. Arun Gandhi's (grandson of Mahatma Gandhi) career took a hit after publication of his blog post Jewish Identity Can't Depend Upon Violence:
Reference:
Jewish Identity Can't Depend Upon Violence
Arun Gandhi Quits Peace Institute in Flap Over Blog Posting
akl: You are such a pathetic troll. This happened an year ago. And you are portraying it as if it happened right now.

{Deleted. Warning: no personal attacks!}
Last edited by enqyoob on 06 Jan 2009 07:55, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: deleted personal attack
Dhiman
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

VikramS wrote: akl: You are such a pathetic troll. This happened an year ago. And you are portraying it as if it happened right now.
Liar.
Its still relevant and thanks again for your personal attack.
enqyoob
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

JEM:
teaches Palestinian youth that Jews are ... just like the rest of us,
They do. All kufr. :mrgreen:

akl: Thanks for posting that Bloggorhea by Arun Gandhi. Now I see why he was laughed out of town: He's an idiot.
Would it not be better to befriend those who hate you? Can you not reach out and share your technological advancement with your neighbors and build a relationship?


Oh, yes! PLEASE teach Hamas, Hezbollah etc. how to make nuclear weapons, and give them some Kfir fighters. I am sure this is what our Wagah Candle Kissers dream of.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

JE Menon wrote: There is no effective moral case against Israel here. Hamas is no paragon of morality. And don't confuse Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole (you may recall they were killing each other barely a year ago). Israel is by no means a saintly entity. Why should it be, with such neighbours? But we do know that Israel is perfectly prepared to make peace with its neighbours and live peacefully. The problem is that the neighbours want their extermination.
Unfortunately, the morality that people subscribe to in India comes out of standards set by Ashoka, Gandhi, and Buddha, not by medieval war mentality. The anger that people feel with respect to government inaction in India is understandable however, there is no reason for us to skew our sense of morality based on what goes in Isreal-Phalestine region which is probably the most violent region in the world.

P.S: I am trying to come up with a new abbreviation for people who apply their "western and middle-eastern" centric ideas, action, and mentality of what a "conservative" or "liberal" is or should be to Indian centric thought. Perhaps as simple as MWC (Misplaced western conservatism) or MWL(Mispalced western liberalism). Not sure if there is one already.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Please never compare India to Israel.

1. Israel aided Hamas as a rival to the PLO. And even when Hamas turned around and did not acknowledge even Israel's right to exist, the following ensued:
But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e10456.htm

Israel is moral and wants to live in peace with its neighbors, my foot! Basically it wants to be able to continue to build settlements and annex the whole West Bank, which any peace deal would put an end to.

From the same URL as above:
According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."

"The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."

"They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said.

Aid to Hamas may have looked clever, "but it was hardly designed to help smooth the waters," he said. "An operation like that gives weight to President George Bush's remark about there being a crisis in education.
Tell me, is India so "clever" :roll: ?

2. Don't tell me Moshe Dayan, Menachim Begin, Ariel Sharon, etc. are some fringe lunatic Israelis.

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ... we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."

(Ariel (Arik) Sharon, 1973

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

"Let us approach them [the Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories] and say that we have no solution, that you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -- and we will see where this process leads. In five years we may have 200,000 less people - and that is a matter of enormous importance."

(Moshe Dayan, September 1967)

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"

(Yitzhak Rabin, July 1948)

"I deeply believe in launching preventive war against the Arab States without further hesitation. By doing so we will achieve two targets: firstly, the annihilation of Arab power; and secondly, the expansion of our territory."

(Menachem Begin, 12 October 1955)

"The Americans do not understand the first thing about the Middle East and the Arabs. ... Israel is now reaping the benefits of this ignorance. But the benevolent hour is waning."

(Aluf Benn, 13 May 2004)

"I am sure that most Americans are not even aware that Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation and that every day Palestinian territory shrinks as it is stolen by fanatical Israeli colonists. These fanatics do not differ in any obvious way from the French colonists in Algeria, which the French also proclaimed "French soil." But colonialism is just another word for grand larceny."

(Juan Cole, 17 September 2004)

Professor Juan Cole is of course from the excellent http://www.juancole.com

Even the most cowardly Indian government has a million times the honor of the proudest Israeli government.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

STRANGE my recent 2 posts are missing in this thread? Adminullahs any mistake by me in this front, did you delete them? I posted again after my first post was missing... :((
VikramS
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by VikramS »

A-Gupta:

In case you are unaware Juan R.I. Cole is married to a Pakistani woman Shahin Malik http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/jcpers.htm. His full name Juan Ricardo Irfan Cole suggests that he converted to Islam as a result.

This by itself should not affect his judgment but just something to keep in mind. He is not particularly liked by the right wing folks in the US and is seen as a minor league player of the game Suzanne Roy is an MVP of.

Also keep in mind that unless and until there is an acceptance of the state of Israel by ALL major powers of the region, Israel will continue to be in a state of war. This is not about the Gaza strip or the West Bank or whatever; it is a fundamental existentialistic question. The right-wing factions in Israel realize this and feel that any peace or donation of land, WITHOUT a fundamental change in the attitudes of the Islamic countries in meaningless. The story of PrithviRaj and Ghouri seems to have taught someone a lesson. The attitude in Israel has shifted since most of the comments were made but thankfully for the people of Israel, their leaders are not willing to fall for some false peace.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

The task of the international community is to find a quick stop to the fighting,as both sides are taking punishment,Gaza with more civilian casualties.There was a recent BBC interview with Dr.James Zogby,the head of the Arab-American Institute.Dr.Zogby said that at a previous time,when elections in Israel were around the corner,with Peres in charge,Israel launched an attack on Lebanon .The US was lukewarm in attempting to stop the conflict.Dr.Zogby interviwed Bill Clinton,pres. at that time,and asked him why.His astonishing reply was that Clinton wanted Peres to win the election and the war was meant to make Peres look tough.Result,Peres lost!

A similar situation exists today,with Barak (Israel's most decorated general) the Defence Minister,with ambitions of becoming PM in the forthcoming elections,talking and acting very,very tough.This is not to say that the war in Gaza is solely based upon electoral considerations.Hamas has simply refused to acknowledge Israel's existence and has perpetrated years of rocket attacks.In declaring war on Hamas,Israel has through the conflict also killed hundreds of innocent civilians,which is why so many countries are opposed to it continuing the war on humanitarian grounds.Israel wants sure guarantees from Hamas,virtually impossible to get,unless the international community puts its act together and that requires pro-active US action,which is likely only after Obama enters the White House.I wonder whether Israel should've also used the same strategy to pay Hamas back in kind,firing similar unguided rockets ,or MBRL salvoes into Gaza just as Hamas was doing.An exact replication of the attacks would've perhaps drawn less criticism.

The key reason why Hamas is able to sustain itself is the network of tunnels that exist ,which link it to Egyptian territory,giving it the ability to smuggle in material and arms.Like the Vietnamese tunnels in that war,the Hamas network,called the "Philadelphi Corridor",is almost impossible to destroy without Egyptian help.Egypt,which signed a Treaty with Israel at Camp David is also loath to stop the tunnels because it allows it to gain some respectability amongst the Palestinians.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28140.html

Tunnels – the secret weapon for Hamas

Troops may face street guerrillas equipped by a web of underground supply lines

By Kim Sengupta and Ben Lynfield in Jerusalem
Tuesday, 6 January 2009

SUHAIB SALEM/REUTERS

The tunnels between Egypt and Gaza are a conduit for consumer goods, livestock and arms

Hamas takes fight to the streets of Gaza
Robert Fisk: Bring in the peacekeepers? It's not as easy as it sounds

Israel's ground offensive is reaching a critical stage where its forces may soon have to face Hamas fighters on their chosen killing ground, the narrow, winding alleyways of Gaza City.

Despite the days of relentless air strikes, Israeli commanders admit that the Islamist movement still has large quantities of weapons and up to 20,000 trained men to use in a bloody campaign. The Hamas arsenal has been smuggled in through the intricate network of tunnels that dip under the Egyptian border, a network that has also provided the economic lifeblood for the Palestinian territory suffering from severe and punitive sanctions imposed by Israel.

The fact that these tunnels have played a key role in keeping Hamas in political and military power has made them not only targets of Israeli attacks but also a key issue in any ceasefire.

There are believed to be hundreds of tunnels criss-crossing the nine-mile wide barren border between Gaza and Egypt along what has become known as the Philadelphi Corridor. Constructed over years and varying in depth and width, the tunnels have carried everything from rockets to cattle. Some also allow access to routes for supposed VIPs to have quicker entry and exit from the Palestinian enclave.

Professor Efraim Inbar, director of Israel's Bar-Ilan University's Begin-Sadat Centre for Strategic Studies, believes the Israeli government bears a degree of responsibility for the existence of the tunnels. "They did not take them seriously at first and did not invest enough money and resources to detecting and stopping them. The problem they now face is that they have to destroy all the main tunnels and then also make sure that they are not rebuilt in the future."

In the past the Israelis have considered a number of options to deal with the tunnels, including digging a moat flooded with seawater, deterring smugglers with the risk of drowning. The plan was dropped, however, after it became apparent it could contaminate Gaza's crumbling underground aquifer. The Israelis have also asked the US to provide its Army Corps of Engineers to build an underground wall on the Egyptian side of the Philadelphi Corridor. The Americans are said to have agreed in principle although it is unclear whether the Egyptians had also given the green light.

Jerusalem's demand that there should be stringent checks carried out by an international force to monitor any ceasefire shows the Israeli anxiety about the underground routes being reopened. For the moment, the Israelis are trying to destroy the network with pulverising bunker-busting bombs acquired from the US. Nicholas Pelham, an analyst with the International Crisis Group, said closing the tunnels permanently would be a major and lengthy undertaking. "Without occupying a fairly broad stretch of territory, it is hard to see how you can maintain the closure of the tunnels long-term," he said.

The more immediate concern for Israel is how Hamas's armed wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have used the tunnels to prepare for battle. The militia is said to have sent thousands of members for training to Iran and Lebanon, where they have drawn on the tactics used successfully by Hizbollah against the Israelis in 2006.

According to one Hamas commander, one of the lessons learnt is to reduce the risk of taking return fire by not detonating missiles on site. Fighters "dig tunnels and use lengths of detonation wire so they can launch missiles from a distance. So we lose a tube or a firing frame worth $10, not soldiers".

Abu Bilal, a commander of Islamic Jihad, which operates independently from Hamas in Gaza, acknowledged the rocket attacks have been psychologically damaging for Israelis but have little military impact. "We can't do anything but fire the rockets and hope they enter Gaza," he said. "We are praying for the tanks to come so we can show them new things. All our fighters wait for the chance to kill them."

Hamas's weaponry includes Qassam missiles, mainly manufactured within Gaza, and Chinese copies of Russian-made Grads smuggled from across the border along with mortars, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, heavy calibre machine guns, mines and improvised devices. Hamas also inherited a stockpile of US-made small arms and ammunition abandoned by the rival Fatah movement when its fighters were driven out of Gaza in 2007.

Hamas has also upgraded its military structure with five brigades under separate commanders who report to Izz al-Din al-Qassam chiefs but have also been trained to carry on as individual units when necessary.

The militant group has also been beefing up its propaganda offensive to try to take on the sophisticated Israeli machine. With journalists barred from Gaza by the Israeli military, the Hamas website – the Palestinian Information Center (PIC) – is the main weapon in getting its side of the story to the wider world. It pumps out reports of heavy casualties among invading Israelis, emotive accounts of Gaza civilians "eradicated", and vows to strike deeper and harder into enemy territory.

The website yesterday displayed the mobility of a guerrilla fighter. Saying PIC was under "violent and organised electronic attack", Hamas engineers deftly offered another web address "in case of the halting of the site". Israel disrupted Hamas's al-Aqsa TV station, inserting a cartoon showing Hamas fighters being blown up coupled with an advisory "You won't succeed."

The website says Israel's ground operation amounts to "swimming in the blood of women and children". The PIC says Hamas is holding its own, inflicting at least 11 fatalities and dozens of injuries on Israeli troops. "The surprises are just beginning," it suggests. "Disciples ... are waiting for the Zionists with explosive belts" according to one article, while another spoke of the "Nazi occupation army".

What is Hamas? The origins and mission

*Who are they?

In Arabic, the word "hamas" means zeal, but it is also the Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. The group came into being in 1987 after the eruption of the first intifada.

*How is it organised?

The armed element, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, carries out suicide bombings – the first was in 1993. The political wing, which romped to victory over Fatah in the 2006 elections, runs local government and services.

*Who are the key people?

The de facto prime minister of Hamas is Ismail Haniyeh. The group's overall leader, Khaled Meshal, lives in exile in Syria. He was poisoned by Israeli secret services in Jordan in 1997, but King Hussein forced Israel to send an antidote to save his life.

*What are Hamas's aims?

In the short term, Hamas wants to drive Israeli forces from the occupied territories. It is committed to the destruction of Israel and, in the long term, wants to establish an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine.

*How is Hamas viewed?

A 2007 Pew survey found that almost two-thirds of Palestinians had a favourable opinion of the group. Iran and Syria both support Hamas, while all other Arab countries formally back the Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas. The US and the EU have branded Hamas a terrorist organisation, but have sought an easing of the Israeli blockade of Gaza.
Rishirishi
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

To all Israelis

I fully support your right to invade Gaza, as hamas unprovoked started to fire the missiles. The Palestinians elected a government that has destruction of Israel on top of its agenda. Hence Israel has the right to invade and eliminate the threat.
If you have on the agenda to destroy someone, you also loose the right to complain about being destroyed.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Talking to my Israeli friends this morning , I was struck at the sadness they felt - unanimously they said , yesterday was a bad day for them.

4 deaths is huge to them - a remarkable case of treating the lives of their soldiers as precious.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Keshav »

Some important points to consider here while people debate the morality/immortality/national interest of invading Gaza:

1) Obama's tacit affirmation of the Israeli attacks.
2) A. Gupta's point about comparing India and Israel should be driven home. India is not an imperialist power.

If its at all possible, could someone find out the number of Palestinian casualties as of now?

I've heard its difficult to sort out because Hamas members aren't necessarily military personnel, but can be civilians. Anyone know about this?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

As of yesterday the there were 555 people dead and over 2500 injured. The toll went up today. Israel will have a serious immage problem, if they carry on.

Palestinians are suffering badly. I think Isreal should do maximum damage to Hamas, capture some leaders and get out of there. But I think it will be a mistake to break down the Palestinian authority.

I hope that the Arab word will see reason and support Gaza to become another Dubai. The Arabs should help Palestinians wilth creating a good administration as well as finance social services. I am sure 600 million arabs can manage that.
KLNMurthy
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

A_Gupta wrote:Please never compare India to Israel.

...

Even the most cowardly Indian government has a million times the honor of the proudest Israeli government.
I don't get the honor part, but we could explain Israeli policy and behavior as being driven by a kind of extreme survival imperative that recognizes no morality other than survival. Going through a history of persecution that culminated in the Nazi genocide could have that effect on a people.

It is also not insignificant that there seems to be a powerful strain of fundamental hatred of Jews in Palestinian culture; again, much of it can be explained as an outcome of suffering at the hands of Jews; but most Jews probably believe that even if Israel (once having expropriated the pre-1967 land) were to have been fair and just to Palestinians, they would still try to put an end to their country because they just can't stomach the idea of Jews living around them in a non-subservient state.

I am not arguing that Israel is justified in its policies or that the policies are moral. But we do need to understand beyond simply asserting and documenting the wickedness of one side or the other. I don't think even the most liberal Israeli would put setting a proper moral example to India and the world ahead of survival of his/her country and people.

India's case is different. Though India and Indic culture is faced with a credible threat of annihilation from a determined enemy, there is, as yet, no widespread awareness of this threat, despite 26/11. The day India feels as threatened as Israel, India would make Israel look like a piker. And that would be perfectly understandable.

This is why it is important to crush Pakistan before it can bring about such a day.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

KVRao, even before the formation of israel(1948) and before west bank/gaza/old part of jerusalem was in israeli hands(1967) there were numerous massacres/pogroms against the jews in those parts by the arabs. in contrast there was only a couple of excesses on the part of the jews and which were widely condemned by the jews themselves.

if you follow history, you'll see that the arabs have made hating israel and jews a state policy, irrspective of what they do. their behaviour towards israel is little better than that of a wild beast. in such a case force is the only option.
the only humane thing israel can do is pick and choose methods that minimise civilian damage.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

KV Rao wrote: I don't get the honor part, but we could explain Israeli policy and behavior as being driven by a kind of extreme survival imperative that recognizes no morality other than survival. Going through a history of persecution that culminated in the Nazi genocide could have that effect on a people.
KV, there is certainly a lot of literature out their describing the so called existential threat that Israel faces. However, this is a pure myth given that Israel is a nuclear weapons state, has strong defense forces and technology, is backed by US (which is still the sole remaining superpower of the current world), and also backed by the well-to-do Jewish diaspora and its influence. No other group of countries in the middle-east even comes close to this level of security.

If Israel thinks that it faces an existential threat then I shudder to imagine the threat that Palestinians face. There are approx 10 million Palestinians, out of which approx 5 million have been driven out of Israel and are stateless people (in the true sense of the word). They do not have ANY citizenship and hence are open to all sorts of exploitation and have no real protection of law wherever they are. An extremely large number of Palestinians who do continue to live in (a virtual prison) Israel/Palestine region live in poverty; while as, Israelis live a well-to-do, if not rich, life.

Despite this the amount of foreign aid that Palestinians get is a few hundred million dollars. The Israeli's get billions of dollars in foreign aid. It is the common Palestinians who face an existential threat not Israel.
The day India feels as threatened as Israel, India would make Israel look like a piker. And that would be perfectly understandable.
No offense intended, but this is the most ridiculous statement that I have read on BRF till now and that too hypothetical.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Unfortunately,striking at Hamas has also led to these awful tragedies,a school run by the UN hit with dozens of kids killed.Israel,though not faulted for the legitimate right to hit at Hamas,is losing the propaganda war every time large collateral damage occurs.The global community is appalled at the massive loss of life of civilians and Israel's insensivity to it.Expect Israel to relent just before Obama takes over.It is using the last days of the Bush presidency to go after Hamas regardless of world condemnation.Egypt meanwhile is also under pressure from both within and without to open the Rafa crossing and allow refugees and war wounded to cross over.It is unlikely that in this conflict Israel will be able to defeat Hamas entirely,as the cost of street by street fighting will be very heavy for Israeli forces too.Another stalemate as was seen in Lebanon might take place,with a battered Hamas still in place in Gaza.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 462298.ece

Israel agrees to open corridor for relief aid after UN school is hit
Azmi Keshawi in Gaza City, James Hider in Jerusalem and James Bone in New York

Israeli mortar rounds blasted a United Nations-run school that had been converted into a refugee shelter for hundreds of Palestinians displaced by the ten-day war in Gaza, killing more than 40 people.

It was one of three UN schools hit by Israeli ordnance yesterday. The strike against the Fakhora school in the northern town of Jabaliya was the deadliest single attack of an already blood-soaked offensive.

As international peace efforts gathered pace in the aftermath of the carnage, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, backed down on his previous refusal to halt the offensive, and ordered the creation of a “humanitarian corridor” into the Gaza Strip. This would entail granting relief convoys periodic access to various areas of the territory to allow desperate Palestinians to stock up on vital goods, his office said last night.

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Mr Olmert, described the measure as a “special status to allow the transfer of people, foodstuffs and medicines” and said it could be implemented today.

'We fight Israel one day on, one day off'
Egypt is best placed to broker a deal
Anti-Semitic attacks rise in Europe

Explaining the attack on the UN school, Israeli army officials said that their forces had been targeted by Hamas mortar fire from within the school compound. They named two alleged Hamas militants among the fatalities, Imad Abu Askar and Hassan Abu Askar. The Israeli Army has instructions to attack any position used by Hamas for firing rockets, an Israeli military source told The Times.

The deaths came as the Islamists were pushed back from their usual launch grounds to the east and into the packed metropolis of Gaza City and surrounding refugee camps. They pile more pressure on the international community to come up with a swift but durable formula to halt the offensive that has left more than 640 Palestinians dead.

President Sarkozy of France, who is on a peace mission, said that a deal to end Operation Cast Lead was close. Tony Blair, the international community’s envoy, said that a ceasefire could be reached within days but was contingent on finding a way to stop Hamas rearming. His hope that a truce could be struck was echoed by Gordon Brown, who warned that the Middle East faced its “darkest moment yet”.

The increasing violence forced Barack Obama, the US President-elect, to break his silence on Gaza. He expressed his “deep concern” at the killing of civilians.

The Fakhora school had been sheltering refugees driven from their homes by heavy fighting. Screaming relatives tried to revive victims who lay motionless in pools of blood on the pavement outside, as cars and ambulances rushed the casualties to Gaza’s already overwhelmed hospitals.

Palestinian medics said at least 42 bodies were pulled from the wreckage of the school that had been providing shelter for about 350 refugees. The UN said it had confirmed at least 30 dead and another 55 wounded.

John Ging, the Gaza director for the UN refugee agency, said that the building had been clearly marked with a UN flag and its precise co-ordinates given to the Israeli army to avoid just such a tragedy. The UN has run a number of schools in the Gaza Strip since the first wave of Palestinian refugees arrived more than 50 years ago.

Yesterday’s incident could prove a turning point in the operation. The death of 28 Lebanese civilians in an Israeli bombing of the village of Qana during the 2006 Lebanon war caused support for Israel to evaporate and hastened an end to the conflict. Israeli army officials said that UN schools had been used as firing positions by the Islamists before. “An initial inquiry by forces on the ground indicates that a number of mortar shells were apparently fired at [Israeli] troops from within the schools and the forces responded by firing a number of mortar shells into the area,” they said.

Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the UN Relief and Works Agency, called for a full investigation. “We want to see if there have been violations of international law,” he said.

Mr Ging said that the area had been the scene of a number of clashes between Israeli and Hamas forces, “so there’s an intense military and militant activity in that area”. But he said that his staff vetted Palestinians seeking shelter for militants.

In an earlier strike on another UN school in Beach Camp, on Gaza City’s Mediterranean coast, three cousins were killed. A third UN school was struck in Rafah in the south after Israeli tanks moved into the nearby city of Khan Younis. A building next to a UN health clinic was damaged during the Israelis’ relentless offensive to smash Hamas’s military capability before a ceasefire is forced upon them.

The mounting death toll intensified international efforts to secure a truce, with talk of an observers force being deployed. Mr Sarkozy, who met President Mubarak of Egypt in the latest round of his shuttle diplomacy, said: “I am confident that the Israeli authorities’ reaction will make it possible to consider putting an end to the operation . . . in Gaza.”

Mr Blair said that a key element to any truce would be for security measures to be implemented on Gaza’s border with Egypt, which has been used by Hamas as a resupply route. There are believed to be hundreds of smuggling tunnels under the border, although Israeli airstrikes are thought to have destroyed at least 40 large tunnels in the past week.

Diplomats are discussing a possible Turkish role in monitoring a ceasefire in Gaza. Talks at the UN are focusing on the creation of an international presence to oversee the ceasefire, reopen border crossings into Israel, and prevent arms smuggling from Egypt. Both France and Turkey signalled that they were ready to contribute to an international monitoring team for a ceasefire in Gaza.

Britain and the United States voiced support for the Egyptian peace initiative. “It’s very important the discussions we have here and any positive developments on the ground in the region are mutually reinforcing,” David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, said at the UN in New York.

PS:To those advocating an Indian military adventure in Afghanistan,would do well to see how just one incident of collateral damage can cause infinitely more damage to a nation's cause and international reputation than a military setback.It is clear that Hamas set the trap to engineer Israeli strikes into densely populated civilian areas with catastrophic consequences.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

Philip wrote: PS:To those advocating an Indian military adventure in Afghanistan,would do well to see how just one incident of collateral damage can cause infinitely more damage to a nation's cause and international reputation than a military setback.
Palestinian elected authorities do not want Israel there; while as, Afghanistan elected authorities do want and welcome Indian troops and have very good relationships with India. Indian troops have already been operating in Afghanistan for years now and I have yet to hear about anything close to such Israeli style incidences. Infact the opposite is true as there are schools being built (not destroyed) in Afghanistan from some of the Indian funds.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

It is completely misleading to see a "Palestine" population -- what exists is a ARAB population in Palestine; working against the interests of Israel.

I am with Israel on this one -- at least they don't play the game of blaming the victim and humanizing rapists.

More power to Israel.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by pradeepe »

I am with Israel too. More power to them as they respond in the only way that ensures their survival. If the Arabs had half the means that the Israeli's did, they would have massacered all of the israeli's in a blink and twice over just for good measure. So no tears from me. I am going to save them for the Indian lives being lost every day to paki and western perfidy...

Having said that, I dont necessarily support Israel entirely in the Palestine-Israel issue. The real issue is between Israel and Palestine which of course the Arab's have usurped to feed their pet pasttime, read " the urge to hate and kill" and created an Arab-Israel issue. But when you start the killing, I expect the other side to end it in as best a way as they sees fit. Theres no disproportionate response once you open the doors of hell. Should have thought a bit before unlocking those doors....
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/node/14942
I spent the morning at a lecture organized by GWU's outstanding Homeland Security Policy Institute's Ambassador's Roundtable Series featuring Israel's Ambassador to the United States Sallai Meridor. It was a profoundly dismaying experience. Because if Ambassador Meridor is taken at his word, then Israel has no strategy in Gaza.
.....
Meridor's narrative is assuredly familiar to anyone who follows the op-ed pages. He argued repeatedly that "this was not a matter of choice, not something we picked or were hoping for", but rather a war launched by Hamas to which Israel was forced to respond. Hamas must be understood as part of the global struggle against radical Islamic terrorism, he insisted, a war led by Iran ("the world's largest exporter of terror") and employing "sub- conventional weapons of mass destruction" (suicide bombers). The goal, he explained, was to create "a better, more secure situation for us and the Palestinians" by degrading Hamas's capabilities and by re-establishing the credibility of its deterrence.

But how, exactly? After he failed to respond to an initial question about the end-state Israel hoped to achieve, I asked him directly about his government's strategic logic. How, precisely did Israel's government expect its military campaign to achieve its goals? His answer tellingly focused almost exclusively on body counts and targets hit: over 1000 Hamas targets hit ("not a small number"), many headquarters and tunnels and rocket production facilities destroyed. Tactics over strategy.

But as to a political strategy tied to the military campaign, nothing. No guidance as to whether Israel would re-occupy Gaza, or on what terms it would accept a cease-fire. No thoughts as to whether the campaign would cause Hamas to fall from power or help the Palestinian Authority regain political power. An absolute refusal to entertain a question about the negative effects of the images from Gaza on the wider region (the important image of the war, he nearly spat, should be that "terror is not allowed to win"). Would the military assault at least change Hamas's strategic calculus? "This is for the future, only the future will tell."

In short, Meridor quite literally offered no strategy beyond hitting Gaza hard and hoping for the best. "In terms of creating damage we are certainly on the right path," noted the Ambassador. Few would disagree with that assessment, at least. But some might hope that the bloody, battered path might actually be leading somewhere.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Hrere is real angst from an ex-Israeli warrior,now professor,author and academic.His views are a scathing indictment of his country and represent the other viewpoint from Israelis themselves.He sees Israel making a huge mistake by indulging in "overkill" in combating its enemies and settlement "expansionism" clogging the peace.Israel itself is divided within upon the strategy and tactics used to achieve a lasting peace without sacrificing security and it appears more and more that only focussed, forceful international diplomatic intervention of the most powerful nations acting through the UN that can broker a ceasefire and begin the search for a lasting peace.Israel's security looks as if only be guaranteed in the future by an international coalition that helps establishes a functioning Palestinian state through a trade-off of land for peace and that preserves the peace on the ground theough international peacekeeping forces.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

Avi Shlaim
The Guardian, Wednesday 7 January 2009

A wounded Palestinian policeman gestures while lying on the ground outside Hamas police headquarters following an Israeli air strike in Gaza City. Photograph: Mohammed Abed/AFP/Getty Images

The only way to make sense of Israel's senseless war in Gaza is through understanding the historical context. Establishing the state of Israel in May 1948 involved a monumental injustice to the Palestinians. British officials bitterly resented American partisanship on behalf of the infant state. On 2 June 1948, Sir John Troutbeck wrote to the foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, that the Americans were responsible for the creation of a gangster state headed by "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". I used to think that this judgment was too harsh but Israel's vicious assault on the people of Gaza, and the Bush administration's complicity in this assault, have reopened the question.

I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.

Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.

In August 2005 a Likud government headed by Ariel Sharon staged a unilateral Israeli pullout from Gaza, withdrawing all 8,000 settlers and destroying the houses and farms they had left behind. Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement, conducted an effective campaign to drive the Israelis out of Gaza. The withdrawal was a humiliation for the Israeli Defence Forces. To the world, Sharon presented the withdrawal from Gaza as a contribution to peace based on a two-state solution. But in the year after, another 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank, further reducing the scope for an independent Palestinian state. Land-grabbing and peace-making are simply incompatible. Israel had a choice and it chose land over peace.

The real purpose behind the move was to redraw unilaterally the borders of Greater Israel by incorporating the main settlement blocs on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Withdrawal from Gaza was thus not a prelude to a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority but a prelude to further Zionist expansion on the West Bank. It was a unilateral Israeli move undertaken in what was seen, mistakenly in my view, as an Israeli national interest. Anchored in a fundamental rejection of the Palestinian national identity, the withdrawal from Gaza was part of a long-term effort to deny the Palestinian people any independent political existence on their land.

Israel's settlers were withdrawn but Israeli soldiers continued to control all access to the Gaza Strip by land, sea and air. Gaza was converted overnight into an open-air prison. From this point on, the Israeli air force enjoyed unrestricted freedom to drop bombs, to make sonic booms by flying low and breaking the sound barrier, and to terrorise the hapless inhabitants of this prison.

Israel likes to portray itself as an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. Yet Israel has never in its entire history done anything to promote democracy on the Arab side and has done a great deal to undermine it. Israel has a long history of secret collaboration with reactionary Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. Despite all the handicaps, the Palestinian people succeeded in building the only genuine democracy in the Arab world with the possible exception of Lebanon. In January 2006, free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority brought to power a Hamas-led government. Israel, however, refused to recognise the democratically elected government, claiming that Hamas is purely and simply a terrorist organisation.

America and the EU shamelessly joined Israel in ostracising and demonising the Hamas government and in trying to bring it down by withholding tax revenues and foreign aid. A surreal situation thus developed with a significant part of the international community imposing economic sanctions not against the occupier but against the occupied, not against the oppressor but against the oppressed.

As so often in the tragic history of Palestine, the victims were blamed for their own misfortunes. Israel's propaganda machine persistently purveyed the notion that the Palestinians are terrorists, that they reject coexistence with the Jewish state, that their nationalism is little more than antisemitism, that Hamas is just a bunch of religious fanatics and that Islam is incompatible with democracy. But the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity.

Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

It continued to play the old game of divide and rule between rival Palestinian factions. In the late 1980s, Israel had supported the nascent Hamas in order to weaken Fatah, the secular nationalist movement led by Yasser Arafat. Now Israel began to encourage the corrupt and pliant Fatah leaders to overthrow their religious political rivals and recapture power. Aggressive American neoconservatives participated in the sinister plot to instigate a Palestinian civil war. Their meddling was a major factor in the collapse of the national unity government and in driving Hamas to seize power in Gaza in June 2007 to pre-empt a Fatah coup.

The war unleashed by Israel on Gaza on 27 December was the culmination of a series of clashes and confrontations with the Hamas government. In a broader sense, however, it is a war between Israel and the Palestinian people, because the people had elected the party to power. The declared aim of the war is to weaken Hamas and to intensify the pressure until its leaders agree to a new ceasefire on Israel's terms. The undeclared aim is to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza are seen by the world simply as a humanitarian problem and thus to derail their struggle for independence and statehood.

The timing of the war was determined by political expediency. A general election is scheduled for 10 February and, in the lead-up to the election, all the main contenders are looking for an opportunity to prove their toughness. The army top brass had been champing at the bit to deliver a crushing blow to Hamas in order to remove the stain left on their reputation by the failure of the war against Hezbollah in Lebanon in July 2006. Israel's cynical leaders could also count on apathy and impotence of the pro-western Arab regimes and on blind support from President Bush in the twilight of his term in the White House. Bush readily obliged by putting all the blame for the crisis on Hamas, vetoing proposals at the UN Security Council for an immediate ceasefire and issuing Israel with a free pass to mount a ground invasion of Gaza.

As always, mighty Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression but the sheer asymmetry of power between the two sides leaves little room for doubt as to who is the real victim. This is indeed a conflict between David and Goliath but the Biblical image has been inverted - a small and defenceless Palestinian David faces a heavily armed, merciless and overbearing Israeli Goliath. The resort to brute military force is accompanied, as always, by the shrill rhetoric of victimhood and a farrago of self-pity overlaid with self-righteousness. In Hebrew this is known as the syndrome of bokhim ve-yorim, "crying and shooting".

To be sure, Hamas is not an entirely innocent party in this conflict. Denied the fruit of its electoral victory and confronted with an unscrupulous adversary, it has resorted to the weapon of the weak - terror. Militants from Hamas and Islamic Jihad kept launching Qassam rocket attacks against Israeli settlements near the border with Gaza until Egypt brokered a six-month ceasefire last June. The damage caused by these primitive rockets is minimal but the psychological impact is immense, prompting the public to demand protection from its government. Under the circumstances, Israel had the right to act in self-defence but its response to the pinpricks of rocket attacks was totally disproportionate. The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.

Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.

The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.

A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It di d so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men. Israel's objective is not just the defence of its population but the eventual overthrow of the Hamas government in Gaza by turning the people against their rulers. And far from taking care to spare civilians, Israel is guilty of indiscriminate bombing and of a three-year-old blockade that has brought the inhabitants of Gaza, now 1.5 million, to the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe.

The Biblical injunction of an eye for an eye is savage enough. But Israel's insane offensive against Gaza seems to follow the logic of an eye for an eyelash. After eight days of bombing, with a death toll of more than 400 Palestinians and four Israelis, the gung-ho cabinet ordered a land invasion of Gaza the consequences of which are incalculable.

No amount of military escalation can buy Israel immunity from rocket attacks from the military wing of Hamas. Despite all the death and destruction that Israel has inflicted on them, they kept up their resistance and they kept firing their rockets. This is a movement that glorifies victimhood and martyrdom. There is simply no military solution to the conflict between the two communities. The problem with Israel's concept of security is that it denies even the most elementary security to the other community. The only way for Israel to achieve security is not through shooting but through talks with Hamas, which has repeatedly declared its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with the Jewish state within its pre-1967 borders for 20, 30, or even 50 years. Israel has rejected this offer for the same reason it spurned the Arab League peace plan of 2002, which is still on the table: it involves concessions and compromises.

This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.

• Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford and the author of The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World and of Lion of Jordan: King Hussein's Life in War and Peace.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by shyamd »

IOL Reports: Looks like Hezbollah may step in to help Hamas by launching rockets into northern Israel. Khaled Meshaal also shares the same view. Although Iran has been lobbying Bashar Al Assad to allow Hezbollah to launch operations. Bashar says that Lebanon hasnt recovered from the 2006 clash. Meanwhile Assad has sent one of his top military advisors to meet with Nasrallah's assisstant. This crisis can become a whole lot bigger than just Gaza.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Shyam

Israel expects that possibility and hence has the higher number of reserves called up.

If Hezbollah gets in - pity Lebanon.

For the liberals who like criticize Israel.

Nuances are all fine but when push comes to shove you have to back one side and Israel has to be that side.

Nuances can be found in various elements of India, US etc but in a fight with the nutjobs - you set that aside

It is arrogance to brush off Israels problems without being there and see the nut jobs they deal with.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

does this escalation mean that Israel will withdraw her F-16s in Kashmir - meant to attack Pakistan?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by renukb »

From UPI.com

Commentary: Israel's endgame

WASHINGTON, Jan. 5 (UPI) -- At the birth of Israel, there were 87 million Arabs. Today, there are 320 million. In 2020 -- the same time that has elapsed since 1988 -- Arabs will number half a billion. Gaining time and pushing back are the ingredients of Israeli strategy.

The immediate objective in Gaza against Hamas is to restore Israel's image of military invincibility, badly damaged 2 1/2 years ago when a punitive raid into south Lebanon triggered a hail of Hezbollah rockets and missiles that forced the population of northern Israel into underground shelters. A botched Israeli military operation gave the Israel Defense Forces a black eye -- and invincible Israel, in the eyes of its enemies, became vincible.

Hezbollah on Israel's northern border and Hamas to its south are seen in Israel as extensions of Iran's asymmetrical terrorist capabilities. Given Iran's nuclear ambitions, it became imperative to demonstrate to Iran's strategic planners that Hamas would never be allowed to act as a surrogate for those who plan Israel's destruction. So far, the only demonstration in Gaza is that Hamas now has 1 million Israelis within range of its missiles.

Four Israelis killed by Hamas' unguided rockets provoked a massive retaliation that killed over 500 and wounded 2,500, left 1.5 million Palestinians without power or running water, short of food, overflowing hospitals, too few doctors -- and triggered anti-Israel demonstrations throughout the world. The mobilization of IDF reservists and a massive eight-day aerial bombardment were followed by a tank-led ground invasion of Gaza.

IDF reservists were also needed to reinforce the northern front in Lebanon, should Hezbollah decide to open a second front in solidarity with Hamas. In the south, the Israelis estimate 400 to 600 tunnels run along Gaza's "Philadelphia Corridor," the strip of land along the Egyptian border. Mossad, the Israeli CIA, estimates the amount of explosives smuggled in via tunnels, courtesy of Iran, at 4 tons. Iran's Revolutionary Guard trained some 950 Hamas volunteers, according to Mossad, in building rockets and bombs and in guerrilla warfare tactics. Iran's secret aid to Hamas is estimated at $30 million a year.

Since neither Hamas nor Hezbollah can be eliminated, what is Israel's endgame?

For two of Israel's three principal contenders in the Feb. 10 elections, Defense Minister (and former Prime Minister) Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, hundreds of air strikes, a massive artillery barrage and a ground offensive against Hamas targets demonstrated they could be just as tough as the challenger, superhawk and former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu. For those whose priority objective is the creation of a viable Palestinian state -- the United States, the European Union, 22 Arab countries -- it was yet another setback.

The geopolitical can named "Palestinian state" has been kicked down the road one more time. Slowly working its way back center stage was the 2002 Saudi plan that called for the recognition of Israel by all 22 Arab states in return for the territories captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War (with minor adjustments in Israel's favor to be negotiated). Originally put forward by Saudi King Abdullah seven years ago, and endorsed by the entire Arab world, moderate Arab leaders have been hinting President Obama would adopt it for his new Middle East roadmap.

Hezbollah in 2006 and Hamas in 2008/09 have convinced an overwhelming majority of Israelis that a Palestinian state cannot coexist peacefully with the Jewish state. The 260,000 Jewish settlers in 140 settlements in the West Bank are not about to upstake to make room for a revanchist Palestinian state. The lessons of Hezbollah's missiles in 2006 and Hamas' in 2008 have convinced most Israelis a Palestinian nation in the West Bank, even if demilitarized under U.N. or even U.S. control, would not give up the dream of recovering the homes their fathers and grandfathers lost 62 years ago.

A month after Israel forced 8,500 Jewish settlers out of Gaza in December 2005, Hamas defeated the corrupt and ineffective Fattah movement in parliamentary elections. By 2007, a civil war drove Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his government out of Gaza to the West Bank, now under Israeli control.

Another showstopper for a Palestinian state is Jerusalem, specifically Arab East Jerusalem, where several thousand Israelis have moved in piecemeal over the past four decades. No Palestinian leader could accept anything less than a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, which no Israeli leader, expecting to stay alive politically, could endorse.

Meanwhile, Israel's rekindled status as invincible carried the day, aided and assisted in the midst of the Gaza offensive by the IDF's new YouTube channel, using the blogosphere as another war zone. Israeli politicians, drowned out by the voices of Hezbollah during the 2006 Lebanon war, dominated news networks with footage from unmanned drones and fighter-bombers that showed Hamas loading rockets onto a pickup truck to be driven closer to the border -- but hit by an IAF air strike almost immediately.

Writing in the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper just before Israel's air raids against Hamas targets, former Mossad chief Ephraim Halevy said: "What is changing before our eyes is a clear process of recognition by Hamas leaders that their ideological aspiration is unattainable, and will remain in the foreseeable future. Therefore, its leaders in Damascus take the trouble to say to the many interlocutors who visit their offices, including in the past week, that they are willing or want the establishment of a Palestinian state within the provisional 1967 borders. Provisional until when? They do not say, and they do not know."

Provisional or permanent, that's precisely where Israel's leaders are determined not to go.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Purush »

The dhimmification of Oirope sems to be right on schedule...

From Denmarkistan..
Schools caught up in Palestinian conflict

Barbed-wire fences and security guards are a regular part of many Jewish childrens' school day

A number of school administrators have come forth in recent days to confirm that they recommend Jewish children should not enrol at their schools.

According to school administrators, law enforcement officials and social workers, the on-going conflict in Gaza has led to heightened tensions between Jews and Arabs - particularly Palestinians - here in Denmark.

And although few headmasters of schools have faced the situation, most of those at schools with a high percentage of children of Arab descent say they try to prevent Jewish parents from enrolling their children there.

On Monday, headmaster Olav Nielsen of Humlehave School in Odense publicly admitted he would refuse Jewish parents' wish to place their child at his school.


The comments were made following an incident last week in which two Israeli citizen's were shot and wounded at a city shopping centre. Police believe the incident was a reaction to the Gaza conflict.

Other headmasters have now come forth to support Nielsen's position, adding that they are putting the child's safety first.

At Caroline Skole in Copenhagen's Østerbro district, video cameras watch over the playground and entrances of the school, which is surrounded by a 2.5 metre-high barbed-wire fence.

One parent whose child goes to the Jewish school said thinking about the extra security can be disturbing at times, but she felt it was necessary.

Rabbi Bent Lexner called the headmasters' concern 'theoretical. In reality, Jewish parents would never try to enrol their child in those schools.'
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Looks like Bashar Al Assad was convinced by the Iranians.

Five rockets from Lebanon hit northern Israel, Israeli tanks in Philadelphi corridor
After five rockets from Lebanon exploded in the Nahariya-Kabri district, early Thursday, Jan. 8, West Galilee police ordered people to stay under cover, like citizens in the south for the past month. One rocket hit a home for retired citizens. Three were injured and 11 went into shock. Israeli aircraft and artillery shelled the source of fire. Schools were closed in the area and public shelters opened. Lebanese TV reported the rockets were fired from Wadi Hamoud south of the Litani River. Ashkelon and Ashdod also took rockets.

In the south, tanks joined the massive Israeli air-artillery assault Israel launched Wednesday night to destroy Hamas' smuggling tunnels, as an Israeli envoy headed for Cairo to discuss a ceasefire.

Wednesday, Jan. 7, Cairo presented Hamas with an ultimatum to reply to Egypt's ceasefire proposals by 6 a.m. Thursday, Jan. 8. The Palestinian terrorist group was not expected to meet the demand.

DEBKAfile reports: In the last 24 hours, the US, Israel and Egypt were clearly working in harness. In New York, the US acted for the second time to block a UN Security Council ordering an unconditional ceasefire; from Cairo, Egypt shut off Hamas' diplomatic options, while Israel embarked on a military operation to pre-determine a key outcome of the Gaza conflict: Hamas' inability to rearm.

Leaflets dropped in advance by the Israeli air force warned the 30,000 dwellers in the targeted Rafah region to leave their homes.

Hamas' Southern Brigade is deployed in this strategic sector of the southern Gaza Strip under the command of a high-ranking commander called Al-Attar. Its operatives tried and failed to stem the flight from the Yibne and Block O Rafah refugee camps and Rafah's Tel Sultan

DEBKAfile's military sources report that Israel pounded this Hamas lifeline for arms supplies and reinforcements for days by air and sea. The new operation aims to finish the system off for good by clearing the critical 300 meters between Rafah and Philadelphi, where the openings to the thousands of smuggling tunnels are concealed by buildings.

For Hamas-Damascus and Hamas-Gaza alike, bowing to the Egyptian ultimatum and accepting the proposal intelligence minister Gen. Omar Suleiman put before its representatives in Cairo Tuesday would be seen as a surrender to the Israeli army.

Israeli defense ministry official Amos Gilad flies to Cairo Thursday to start talks on Egypt's ceasefire proposals.

DEBKAfile also discloses that the Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert sent his political adviser Shalom Turjman to Washington Wednesday night.

Earlier that day, the Israeli defense cabinet decided to continue the military operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip while also discussing the ceasefire proposals received from Egypt.

A growing number of cabinet ministers advocated expanding the military operation against Hamas and bringing it to the point of resolution, supporting the view held by Olmert and the military high command.
Surya
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Unfortunately the Indian troops in Lebanon will get caught in the middle.

Pray for their safety and hope the UN pulls out if this thing goes up because the Israelis are going to go crazy if they are attacked in 2 sides.

No point dying for these retards.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Arya Sumantra »

If some militant decides to shoot at his enemy from his own apartment's window then how can he cry foul when his own family members get killed in retaliatory enemy fire ??? Hamas has no case to cry before media about civilian deaths if it uses civilian locations(schools, apartments etc) to fire at enemy. Whatever the cause justified or not, it does not escape the truth of above logic PERIOD

If civilians allow their shoulder to be used by militants to fire at their enemy then the civilians can only hold militants responsible for their wounds. Am sick of seeing the leftist liberal british and european media talking endlessly about civilian deaths forgetting that blame for civilian deaths lies on those who use them as human shields and not those targetting militants.

Go Israel. You are right. One cannot strike peace with rival that only seeks your destruction. Palestinians want to live peacefully and at the same time want to destroy Israel. How unrealistic? If they genuinely wanted peace they would have got one by now. Non-violence is a concept beyond the IQ of thick Arab skulls. Else they would have learnt something from MKG or Mandela.

Hope MEA shuts up. Does MEA forget how sympathetic to bakistan the entire middle eastern media was in the aftermath of Mumbai attacks? When will MEA learn that brotherhood by religion will always put ME on the opponent side in yindoo-baki standoff.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by rajsunder »

akl wrote:
KV Rao wrote: I don't get the honor part, but we could explain Israeli policy and behavior as being driven by a kind of extreme survival imperative that recognizes no morality other than survival. Going through a history of persecution that culminated in the Nazi genocide could have that effect on a people.
KV, there is certainly a lot of literature out their describing the so called existential threat that Israel faces. However, this is a pure myth given that Israel is a nuclear weapons state, has strong defense forces and technology, is backed by US (which is still the sole remaining superpower of the current world), and also backed by the well-to-do Jewish diaspora and its influence. No other group of countries in the middle-east even comes close to this level of security.
You have 9 countries around Israel that are ready to pounce on Israel and eat it any time, and you still beleive that Israel has no problem??

Defence Forces and Nuclear Weapons are not made in a day, its the sheer hard work and clever usage of resources that made Israel what it is.

Dont you know "Good fences make good neighbours".


BTW if u read the history of Israel, Only after USSR started providing Arab countries with Arms and ammunition USA entered the picture with full fdledged support for Israel.
If Israel thinks that it faces an existential threat then I shudder to imagine the threat that Palestinians face. There are approx 10 million Palestinians, out of which approx 5 million have been driven out of Israel and are stateless people (in the true sense of the word). They do not have ANY citizenship and hence are open to all sorts of exploitation and have no real protection of law wherever they are. An extremely large number of Palestinians who do continue to live in (a virtual prison) Israel/Palestine region live in poverty; while as, Israelis live a well-to-do, if not rich, life.
Who asked them to go out, do you know that there are more than 2 million Muslims living in Israel as citizens who do not have any problem with the Israeli govt.
how do you think one can sustain a family when he has 5 wifes and 25 children.
Despite this the amount of foreign aid that Palestinians get is a few hundred million dollars. The Israeli's get billions of dollars in foreign aid. It is the common Palestinians who face an existential threat not Israel.
Are u meaning to say that Israel is a better beggar than palestine?
The day India feels as threatened as Israel, India would make Israel look like a piker. And that would be perfectly understandable.
No offense intended, but this is the most ridiculous statement that I have read on BRF till now and that too hypothetical.
[/Quote]
for people with jaundice, the whole world is yellowish :rotfl:
SivaN
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by SivaN »

Whatever rationalisations people come up with on this forum, a few facts are in order

1. War crimes are being committed, and some folks probably cannot land in Europe at all for fear of arrest
2. The current war is purely election theatrics for Israelis for Bibi and Livni
3. Getting pogrom'ed out by Europe is no reason to steal Palestinian land. They had nothing to do with the pogroms. Compared to what happened in Europe till the 1900s, Jews/Muslims were pretty much OK in getting along.
4. There is nothing unique about their suffering i.e. Jewish suffering is not special that they should be exempt from rules of war and peace. Heck, by that token, about 3-5 million(and lots dead) people lost their moorings in our Partition. No Indian OR Pakistani is claiming special privileges.
5. And the Zionist idealogy is racist. God's chosen people? A Jewish state? WTF are the rest of the world? 2nd class folks under their God? Replace Zionism with Muslim....hey, mad muslims crap.

This war itself is a turkey shoot, killing women and children; IDF at its best. Notice, how many hamas fighters were killed so far? Few arent they? This invasion is Sabra and Shatila redux with IDF instead of Phalangists.
rajsunder
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by rajsunder »

SivaN wrote:Whatever rationalisations people come up with on this forum, a few facts are in order

1. War crimes are being committed, and some folks probably cannot land in Europe at all for fear of arrest
wow first post and that too pro terrorist.
War Crimes, what was hamas thinking when it was firing rockets??
was hamas thinking that israel is going to love it for firing rockets into Israel??

Landing in Europe?? what is that about??
2. The current war is purely election theatrics for Israelis for Bibi and Livni
and this has nothing to do with hamas firing rockets into israel?
3. Getting pogrom'ed out by Europe is no reason to steal Palestinian land. They had nothing to do with the pogroms. Compared to what happened in Europe till the 1900s, Jews/Muslims were pretty much OK in getting along.
We are not discussing about why Israel is there, that would be needing an entirely new thread. Stick to the point and discuss the war
4. There is nothing unique about their suffering i.e. Jewish suffering is not special that they should be exempt from rules of war and peace. Heck, by that token, about 3-5 million(and lots dead) people lost their moorings in our Partition. No Indian OR Pakistani is claiming special privileges.
same as above
5. And the Zionist idealogy is racist. God's chosen people? A Jewish state? WTF are the rest of the world? 2nd class folks under their God? Replace Zionism with Muslim....hey, mad muslims crap.
and Islam is not? What do u think is bigger evil a religionwhich says they are choosen people and a religion which gives right to kill anyone who does not accept it??
This war itself is a turkey shoot, killing women and children; IDF at its best. Notice, how many hamas fighters were killed so far? Few arent they? This invasion is Sabra and Shatila redux with IDF instead of Phalangists.
Thats what happens when u hide behind women and children and fight.
enqyoob
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

This invasion is Sabra and Shatila redux with IDF instead of Phalangists.

Aren't you hyperventilating a bit too much there?
KLNMurthy
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

akl wrote:
KV Rao wrote: I don't get the honor part, but we could explain Israeli policy and behavior as being driven by a kind of extreme survival imperative that recognizes no morality other than survival. Going through a history of persecution that culminated in the Nazi genocide could have that effect on a people.
KV, there is certainly a lot of literature out their describing the so called existential threat that Israel faces. However, this is a pure myth given that Israel is a nuclear weapons state, has strong defense forces and technology, is backed by US (which is still the sole remaining superpower of the current world), and also backed by the well-to-do Jewish diaspora and its influence. No other group of countries in the middle-east even comes close to this level of security.

If Israel thinks that it faces an existential threat then I shudder to imagine the threat that Palestinians face. There are approx 10 million Palestinians, out of which approx 5 million have been driven out of Israel and are stateless people (in the true sense of the word). They do not have ANY citizenship and hence are open to all sorts of exploitation and have no real protection of law wherever they are. An extremely large number of Palestinians who do continue to live in (a virtual prison) Israel/Palestine region live in poverty; while as, Israelis live a well-to-do, if not rich, life.

Despite this the amount of foreign aid that Palestinians get is a few hundred million dollars. The Israeli's get billions of dollars in foreign aid. It is the common Palestinians who face an existential threat not Israel.
The day India feels as threatened as Israel, India would make Israel look like a piker. And that would be perfectly understandable.
No offense intended, but this is the most ridiculous statement that I have read on BRF till now and that too hypothetical.
Let me spell it out: attitudes and policies are driven perceptions. It is perfectly logical that any people, Indians or Israelis, who perceive an existential threat will fight, and throw away the rule book. They can be made to stop fighting by altering the perception. This can be done either by altering reality and/or bringing the perception more in line with reality.
KLNMurthy
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

SivaN wrote:Whatever rationalisations people come up with on this forum, a few facts are in order

1. War crimes are being committed, and some folks probably cannot land in Europe at all for fear of arrest
2. The current war is purely election theatrics for Israelis for Bibi and Livni
3. Getting pogrom'ed out by Europe is no reason to steal Palestinian land. They had nothing to do with the pogroms. Compared to what happened in Europe till the 1900s, Jews/Muslims were pretty much OK in getting along.
4. There is nothing unique about their suffering i.e. Jewish suffering is not special that they should be exempt from rules of war and peace. Heck, by that token, about 3-5 million(and lots dead) people lost their moorings in our Partition. No Indian OR Pakistani is claiming special privileges.
5. And the Zionist idealogy is racist. God's chosen people? A Jewish state? WTF are the rest of the world? 2nd class folks under their God? Replace Zionism with Muslim....hey, mad muslims crap.

This war itself is a turkey shoot, killing women and children; IDF at its best. Notice, how many hamas fighters were killed so far? Few arent they? This invasion is Sabra and Shatila redux with IDF instead of Phalangists.
There are legitimate questions that can be asked about Jewish 'chosen people' ideology. 'Chosen people' is not always interpreted as a priviege by Jews, often it is seen as a special burden imposed by God. Also, in modern times, Jews themselves have done quite a lot of effective work in reconciling Jewish ideology with ideals of humanitarianism and service.

There is no doubt that the suffering imposed on the Palestinian people is unjust. Understanding the perceptions of Jews and Israel doesn't mean denying the injustice or the suffering. But without that understanding, there can be no communication with Jews; and without that communication, there is no solution to the problem short of what is advocated by Hamas--elimination of Israel and by implication Jews.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

FYI:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... round.html

Retired US Army Col. Patrick Lang:
I associated with and/or conducted liaison with The Israel Defense Force (IDF) for many years. This activity occurred as part of my regular duties as a US Army officer and later as a civilian executive of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). Since my retirement from US government service I have had many occasions to visit Israel and to watch the IDF in action against various groups of Palestinians all over the West Bank. I have many friends who are retired and/or reserve members of the IDF. My observations concerning the IDF are based on that experience.

I write here of the ground force. The air force and navy are unknown to me from personal experience except that I know some of their officers from their service in joint (inter-service) assignments like general staff intelligence.

.....{description of the composition and organization of the IDF}

- As a result of this system of manning, the IDF's ground force is more unpredictable and volatile at the tactical (company) level than might be the case otherwise. The national government has a hard time knowing whether or not specific policies will be followed in the field. For example, the Israeli government's policy in the present action in the Gaza Strip has been to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. Based on personal experience of the behavior of IDF conscripts toward Palestinian civilians, I would say that the Israeli government has little control over what individual groups of these young Israeli soldiers may do in incidents like the one yesterday in which mortar fire was directed toward UN controlled school buildings.

In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it. In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble. I have seen a lot of things like that. One might say that in war, s--t happens. That is true, but such behavior is indicative of an army that is not well disciplined and not a completely reliably instrument of state policy. In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants.

All in all, I think the IDF ground forces can best be described as specialized tools that reflect 20th century Zionist socialist and nationalist ideals, and which have military traditions that are in no way reflective of those of the United States. They can also be justly said to have been been fortunate in their enemies. The Jordanians gave them a run for their money in 1948-49. Hizbullah delivered a hint of the inherent limits in such a socio-military system in 2006 and now we are seeing whatever it is that we will see at Gaza. pl
A_Gupta
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers shows what unfolded with Iman walked towards an army post. The soldiers at least 100 yards from any soldier and, while a bomb is always feared in such situations, no one described her as a threat. She was identified as a “girl of about 10″ who was “scared to death.” Worse yet, the soldiers describe her as heading east - away from the army post and toward the refugee camp when she was shot. Captain R had to leave the post and pursue the girl to shoot her and later “confirm the kill” after emptying his magazine into the child.
Full story here.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

A_Gupta: That "retired US officer"'s account is the first time I have read such a calm, ground-level assessment based on personal experience from someone who can claim to be reasonably unbiased (though I do have to ask why he was so welcome inside the Palestinian demonstrations). It does make sense, because the Israel ground forces must contain a pretty large percentage of conscripts.

This is the info that a lot of the ex-IDF writers who are now very critical of the Israeli ground offensive, seem to have inside their memories but will not come out and say. So it does ring quite true.

BTW: I wonder why, given that the US Army is 100% professional, such (or worse) abuses are reported with pretty high frequency from Iraq, regarding interactions with the local civilian population. I tend to doubt that getting good sergeants is going to fix this problem, given the unending nature of the deployments.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

narayanan wrote:A_Gupta: That "retired US officer"'s account is the first time I have read such a calm, ground-level assessment based on personal experience from someone who can claim to be reasonably unbiased (though I do have to ask why he was so welcome inside the Palestinian demonstrations). It does make sense, because the Israel ground forces must contain a pretty large percentage of conscripts.

This is the info that a lot of the ex-IDF writers who are now very critical of the Israeli ground offensive, seem to have inside their memories but will not come out and say. So it does ring quite true.

BTW: I wonder why, given that the US Army is 100% professional, such (or worse) abuses are reported with pretty high frequency from Iraq, regarding interactions with the local civilian population. I tend to doubt that getting good sergeants is going to fix this problem, given the unending nature of the deployments.
Shouldnt the ret officer go by the bibilical advise to " cast the first stone if he is blameless?"

I think its an agenda article.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Satya_anveshi »

SivaN wrote:3. Getting pogrom'ed out by Europe is no reason to steal Palestinian land. They had nothing to do with the pogroms. Compared to what happened in Europe till the 1900s, Jews/Muslims were pretty much OK in getting along.
Please watch Charlie rose show with Bob Simon (CBS correspondent?) aired yesterday. The below has nothing to do with the show.

Due to demographic assymetry, there are 3 possibilities of controlling palestinians, who outnumber Israelis

1. ethnic cleansing
2. saudi arabia or former US or Paki style democracy -> 1 jew = 10 palestinians
3. complete segration and drive out palis

The current scenario is 3 with force. 1 is unthinkable but people would want to read more on isreali actions than their words. 2 also doesn't go fine with international community (if isreal ever cared for one) but that still needs some accomodation.

Sometimes it is difficult for me to figured out who are more cursed people Palis or Israelis to have gotten into this mess.
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