Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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JE Menon
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 29 Mar 2009 14:28

>>right of return

It needs to be clarified that the so called "right of return" which is demanded by the Palestinians applies only to the Arabs, not to the Jews. In other words, the Arabs can return to those places of Israel which the fled from, but the Israelis cannot return to pre-1948 Jewish inhabitations.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 29 Mar 2009 14:29

just noticed, shyamd, debka overdose boss.

Egypt/Jordan have formal relations with Israel... No one has recognised Jerusalem as its capital, but that's a different thing apparently.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Gerard » 29 Mar 2009 16:20

Media allege corruption in massive Israel-India arms deal
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074540.html

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 29 Mar 2009 16:43

Egypt and Jordan indeed recognize Israel.The treaty between rabin and Fatah led by arafat has been dead now for years.Both arafat and rabin are also dead.I don't want to get in any arguments about who is responsible for the demise of the treaty.Maybe Fatah leadership will recognise israel if it returns to its 1967 borders and relinquish jerusalem.

But why should Israel do that? Will the Arab states allow the jews who migrated from their lands to resettle back.What about the property that jews lost in arab lands?

Like Israel which accepted and assimilated these jewish refugees, the Arab states should also give citizenship to palestinian refugees.This is best way to ensure peace.

Relinquishing territory is the worst way to achieve peace with Arabs/islamists.Israel already tried this when it withdrew from gaza sometime back.Instead of being grateful the palestinians responded with increased rocket attacks.

Look what I am saying is that if you give an inch to the islamists/arabs,they will take a mile.

Islamic ideology is extremely biased towards non muslims.Hence a non muslim can never expect justice from a Islamic society.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 29 Mar 2009 16:50

Also those who keep on harping for Israel's return to 1967 borders my question.Did Arab states recoginze Israel before 1967?
Because if they did there wouldn't have been any problem.Arabs have a fundamental problem with Israel's existence.A few bits of territory wouldn't make any difference.

And by the way egypt and jordan signed the treaty because they were defeated in 1967 and 1973 which convinced them that taking on Israel by military means is futile.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 29 Mar 2009 17:52

JEMji, Gerardullah: :mrgreen: :oops: Woops! Of course Jordan and Egypt! Didn't know that about the PLO! Indeed a Debka overdose!



Darshhan wrote:
But why should Israel do that? Will the Arab states allow the jews who migrated from their lands to resettle back.What about the property that jews lost in arab lands?

Maybe the Israeli's should ask. There are still jews living in some arab lands. FYI jews only faced injustices in some arab nations. So this whole farce about jews facing discrimination in most nations other than India is false.

Relinquishing territory is the worst way to achieve peace with Arabs/islamists.Israel already tried this when it withdrew from gaza sometime back.Instead of being grateful the palestinians responded with increased rocket attacks.

The reason, why they launched rockets is because Israel never kept to their end of the bargain. Israel never fully openned up the borders and they blockaded Gaza. So the West and Israel wanted to starve the Gazan population into submission. Hence you saw protests saying "Collective Punishment" etc.

Look what I am saying is that if you give an inch to the islamists/arabs,they will take a mile.

Islamic ideology is extremely biased towards non muslims.Hence a non muslim can never expect justice from a Islamic society.

They haven't even given Hamas to chance to see what they have to offer to the peace process.

Hopefully if Hamas decide to take KSA money, Ismail Haniyeh and Musa Abu Marzouk will get promoted and the hardliners will be out.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 29 Mar 2009 21:53

shyam

seriously?? comparing the Arabs to India???

So this whole farce about jews facing discrimination in most nations other than India is false.


There are jews in Iran - but its not a great life - they have to basically stay under the radar and constantly get harrassed by the mullahs. There are always periodic 'spy arrests' in Iran and elsewhere.

not sure if there any jews in the main Arab nations . A few may survive in the North african ones. A few old people in Iraq probably.

Just google and you will see enough info.

Or ask the migrant jews from North Africa if you go to Israel

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 29 Mar 2009 22:53

Shyam,

The Jews of Arab lands were largely driven out after the Suez-Sinai war of 1956. The waves of specifically anti-Jewish riots are a historical fact. They didnt all leave for Israel either - almost as many went to North America and Europe - in other words they didnt leave out of Zionist sentiment. They left as refugees and went wherever they could go.

Syrian and Yemeni Jews as an exception were *prevented* from leaving the country by law for years - they didnt want them emigrating to Israel and enlarging the Jewish population there.

The Arab world's Jewish population has seen a much bigger proportional drop than Europe did after the Holocaust; that should tell us all something. In fact Europe's Jewish population devastated as it was is still slowly growing, while the Arab world has dwindled away to almost nothing. Only in Morocco is there any official effort to maintain the Jewish population, and even that is unpopular with the masses.

The Jews of India left voluntarily, and almost entirely for Israel. There is no trace of violence or intolerance playing a part in this process.

About the only half-way decent place in the Muslim world for Jews is Turkey, and that predated Ataturk. Maybe also ex-Soviet states like Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan which also share a Turkish background and state secularism.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 30 Mar 2009 00:47

exactly.Almost all the jews have been driven out of the arab lands.Those who remain live under constant threat and intimidation.Central asia is less anti-semitic though.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Dipanker » 30 Mar 2009 01:04

Madina was once ruled by Jews, Israelis should demand Madina back. If Palestinian should have right to return then Israelies should have the right to demand Madina back.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Keshav » 30 Mar 2009 03:16

Dipanker wrote:Madina was once ruled by Jews, Israelis should demand Madina back. If Palestinian should have right to return then Israelies should have the right to demand Madina back.


Asking for Medina (or Hagia Sophia, for the matter) back is like asking for The Temple Mount, Kashi, Mathura, or the Ram Mandir.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 30 Mar 2009 03:42

this is my first post in this thread,
but i think that israel - arab issue is exaggerated
if arab world loves paletinian people why dont they refuge them ? the root cause of this conflict is hatred which islamic arabs have towards all religion,cultures :evil:
Israel on its part has made that desert a standard living place
and it has a right on that land both militarily and historically,
I support even if they capture 10 times more area , they will make it better too. :!:
the muslims should learn to live with mutual respect with all others, be it israelis , hindus, chris,sikhs,....................

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Anujan » 30 Mar 2009 04:27

Johann wrote:The Jews of India left voluntarily, and almost entirely for Israel. There is no trace of violence or intolerance playing a part in this process.


I wanted to drill down into this - was it purely for economic reasons ? Where were they concentrated (IIRC cochin was one such place) ?

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 30 Mar 2009 05:56

Surya wrote:shyam

seriously?? comparing the Arabs to India???

Well, in Bahrain for example, they did face anti jewish riots, but the rioters were mostly foreigners, the local bahraini's actually protected the bahraini jews. The current Bahraini ambassador to US is a jewish lady. Oman, no sign of anti-semitism at all there.

I am not denying that jews ever faced trouble in arab lands, I am saying that it isn't everywhere(all over MENA region) as is the assumption.


There are jews in Iran - but its not a great life - they have to basically stay under the radar and constantly get harrassed by the mullahs. There are always periodic 'spy arrests' in Iran and elsewhere.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Je ... us_in_Iran

Yes they do keep a relatively low profile.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby vsudhir » 30 Mar 2009 08:07

if arab world loves paletinian people why dont they refuge them ?


Kuwait gave about 2-3 lakh Palestinians asylum. They repaid by cheering Saddam's tanks in 1990. After Saddam was driven out of Iraq, Kuwait stripped the Palests of citizenship and sent them all packing to the west bank. Zero fuss, HR hungama, phree tearjerky PR, NGO parasitism or other such fancy stuff in that case.

Now there's an idea for what to do with the Pakis living on our side of the LoC....

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 30 Mar 2009 14:51

^^ eggjactly :-? , what an idea sirji ,you made my day :D
tell them that in 1947 we forgot to kick them out into porkistan
(which is specific choice of hurriyats)
now we want to rectify,and also tell them that porkistan is the dream israel of muslim ummah, so they should have no problem settling their....
i guess miss mufti,the butts,the gilanis etc will also like that

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2009 17:39

Do you know the origin of the word "Palestine"?The land called Palestine earlier,was actually the homeland of the "Phillistines",the corruption of "Phillistine" became "Palestine".The Jews/Hebrews came out of bondage to their "promised land" by heir God,YAWH/Jehovah.Whatever their origins,the people of the entire region,Phillistines/Palestinians,Hebrews/Jews,Lebanese,whatever,have been living there for milennia! Therefore,by any standard,they have the right to co-exist and reside in their region.The boundaries of the various states,kingdoms,etc.,have waxed and waned with history.Except that in the current situ,there is a nuclear aspect that makes eternal warring of olden times a most dangerous prospect.A tradeoff-land for peace and an adjoining state for the Palestinians has been agreed upon.It was reported that Olmert had made a secret offer to the PA showing the extent of land that would be liked to form a new Palestinian state,but said nothing about the right to return of the Palrstinian refugees,whose nmbers have grown over the years of conflict.This is the major stumbling block,not the settlements,which are being hastily expanded to be used as bargaining chips when a deal is made.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 30 Mar 2009 19:20

If Palestinian people are to be given the right of return to israel,then by this logic hindus and sikhs should also be given right of return to pakistan,greeks should be given the right to return to constantinopole/istanbul,Kurds should be allowed to return to kirkuk in Iraq etc.

Also what about Kashmiri pandits! They should also be resettled in Kashmir valley.

Can the muslim/Arab world agree to the above terms.If no then why Israel should allow palestinian citizens to come back.

Actually the problem with Islamic ideology is that it differentiates between Muslims and non muslims.According to this ideology non muslims are subhuman(This is an actual fact.Jews and christians are equated with apes and pigs.other religions such as hindus,pagans are considered even lower.)

Hence non muslims don't have any rights.

You actually have to study their ideology to understand their intentions.You are kidding yourself if you think this is an issue of territory.It's about complete destruction of non believers through any means possible.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 30 Mar 2009 19:22

You actually have to study their ideology to understand their intentions.You are kidding yourself if you think this is an issue of territory.It's about complete destruction of non believers through any means possible


I meant destruction or submission.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 30 Mar 2009 19:30

darshhan wrote:If Palestinian people are to be given the right of return to israel,then by this logic hindus and sikhs should also be given right of return to pakistan,greeks should be given the right to return to constantinopole/istanbul,Kurds should be allowed to return to kirkuk in Iraq etc.

Why don't we reverse what you are saying? What gave jews the right to return to Palestine in the first place saying we lived here 2000 years ago and kick the local population out of their houses? That is what the debate is all about for the palestinian muslims. The biggest supporters of the palestinians are actually the Greek Cypriots, who had the same thing done to them.

Also what about Kashmiri pandits! They should also be resettled in Kashmir valley.

Inshallah!

Actually the problem with Islamic ideology is that it differentiates between Muslims and non muslims.According to this ideology non muslims are subhuman(This is an actual fact.Jews and christians are equated with apes and pigs.other religions such as hindus,pagans are considered even lower.)

Yes so does the christian ideology.

Jews and christians equated with apes and pigs??? Show us evidence. Quote from the Quran, since those are the "instructions passed down from God", not what the so called "defenders of the faith" implement instructions today.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 30 Mar 2009 20:08

Why don't we reverse what you are saying? What gave jews the right to return to Palestine in the first place saying we lived here 2000 years ago and kick the local population out of their houses? That is what the debate is all about for the palestinian muslims. The biggest supporters of the palestinians are actually the Greek Cypriots, who had the same thing done to them.


What gave muslims the right to be in jerusalem,persia,central asia,spain,india etc?They captured these places by conquest.They don't have any god given rights to rule these lands.These is what I am saying palestinians cannot accept jews.By the way Israelis didn't kick them out of their homes.When Israelis were winning in 1948 the palestinians fled on their own accord after being convinced by other Arab states.You can check this fact.Arabs were sure of their invincibility over kafir jews.

I don't know much about greek cypriots and hence I am unable to understand what you are saying.


Yes so does the christian ideology.

Jews and christians equated with apes and pigs??? Show us evidence. Quote from the Quran, since those are the "instructions passed down from God", not what the so called "defenders of the faith" implement instructions today


The relevant suras from quran are given below.

sura 5:60

YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
PICKTHAL: Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
SHAKIR: Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

Sura 7:166
YUSUFALI: When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!
SHAKIR: Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated

Sura 2:65
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
SHAKIR: And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated

You can yourself search for above suras and see for yourself if you don't trust me.

also as far as christianity is concerned Bible is not that binding on christians as it claims to have been written by people who were inspired by god.There was no single author for it.Whereas Quran is claimed to have been dictated by god himself so there is no room for deviation.

Anyway in christianity the seperation of church and state has taken place long time back after reformation.Till now there has been no such reformation within islam and judging from the rigidity of their scriptures as well as the lifestory of their founder(muhammad) there is very little scope of such reformation.

What I am saying is that Islam is not a religion but a political movement like nazi movement or communism which aims to submit every human being and every society.

Also there is a difference between Islam and Muslims.While majority of individual muslims may be good or bad like in any other religion Islamic ideology is definitely not good.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Samay » 30 Mar 2009 20:09

shyamd wrote:
darshhan wrote:If Palestinian people are to be given the right of return to israel,then by this logic hindus and sikhs should also be given right of return to pakistan,greeks should be given the right to return to constantinopole/istanbul,Kurds should be allowed to return to kirkuk in Iraq etc.

Why don't we reverse what you are saying? What gave jews the right to return to Palestine in the first place saying we lived here 2000 years ago and kick the local population out of their houses? That is what the debate is all about for the palestinian muslims. The biggest supporters of the palestinians are actually the Greek Cypriots, who had the same thing done to them.

Also what about Kashmiri pandits! They should also be resettled in Kashmir valley.

Inshallah!

Actually the problem with Islamic ideology is that it differentiates between Muslims and non muslims.According to this ideology non muslims are subhuman(This is an actual fact.Jews and christians are equated with apes and pigs.other religions such as hindus,pagans are considered even lower.)

Yes so does the christian ideology.

Jews and christians equated with apes and pigs??? Show us evidence. Quote from the Quran, since those are the "instructions passed down from God", not what the so called "defenders of the faith" implement instructions today.


it is specifically written in koran that the last jew(which happens to be dajjal/his follower ,will be killed by a muslim, while hiding behind a stone, which will tell that a jew is hiding behind it,,,, and there are hundreds of verses like that which tell that there will be a kind of last war and it also identifies who will be the enemies(probably with jews),, so hatred is dispersed all around koran.
one thing one doesnt knows is why mohammed hated the jews ,so much?
was it that the muslims (southern arabs)were inferior in tech and knowledge to jews in that time, which caused jealous and hatred in him?? and cause some very dark verses to write

now dont tell me that he was not able to read and write and yet was a martian,
i dont believe in that bluff,
but i believe in GOD only

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 30 Mar 2009 22:21

>>The biggest supporters of the palestinians are actually the Greek Cypriots, who had the same thing done to them.

Boss, this is highly inaccurate... I'm guessing this "biggest supporter" thing is rhetorical. There is a degree of sympathy for the Palestinians - but it is a more a "party line" following thing (political party I mean), rather than any special love for the Palestinians among the Greek Cypriots. There was hardly any serious protest during the recent Gaza walkabout by the Israelis. The Republic of Cyprus is now part of the EU, and these chaps are focusing only on one thing: making money. And good for them.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 31 Mar 2009 00:15

JEM,

I'm not sure you can say it was purely rhetorical before the integration of Cyprus in the EU and the semi-normalisation of Greek-Turkish relations.

The Greeks and Arab nationalist states/movements have had a tactical alliance since WWI against Turkish, (and later European) power in the eastern Mediterranean.

The Cypriot issue was at the crux of Greek support for the PKK, which was also supported by Syria - the quid pro quo was Greek support for the Palestinians.

Besides the common rivalry with Turkey, there was also the issue of Orthodox Christians who were overwhelmingly Arab Nationalist in orientation, and for whom there was considerable Greek sympathy. In fact the worse things get for Orthodox Christians, the more likely it is that the Greeks and Russians will try to build leverage with groups like Hamas on the behalf of Orthodox Christians, at least until there is no Orthodox Arabic population to speak of.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 31 Mar 2009 00:36

Samay,

"The Jews of Islam" is one of the best single volume histories of Jewish communities in the Muslim world. The author, Bernard Lewis is himself Jewish, and certainly not of the quietist/self-effacing variety.

Until the 20th century Jews under Muslim power in 99% of the time did not come under special discrimination or hatred - they were treated no better and no worse than dhimmis in general were at that place and time (which is not uniform). Sometimes they had royal protection/alliance and did very well, and sometimes they were kicked around (usually when things were going badly for Muslims), the usual story of dhimmis.

The special hatred for Jews that is commonplace today is the product of Jewish nationalism's success in repeatedly defeating both Arab nationalism and Islamic nationalism on its own ground. Since Jewish nationalism has always depended on the support of the Jewish diaspora worldwide, Arab nationalists and Islamists make no distinction between Jews and Israelis.

The level of hatred consciously promoted against Jews in particular is the response of wounded honour in societies where honour is all-important. Only by making the existance of Israel an affront to every Muslim's honour can they fully mobilise. The aim of this mobilisation of hatred and condemnation is not just to support Palestine but to persuade Jews (and others) worldwide through physical and psychological intimidation to drop support for Israel. Without the support of the diaspora, and without the diaspora's good relations with their host societies Israel could never have survived.

Although some of the rhetoric of this Anti-Jewish hatred is Islamic a lot of it, perhaps even the majority of it was imported from Europe, specifically via Nazi Germany in the 1930s. Which is why you had people like Nasser's government in Egypt, Faisal in Saudi Arabia and Ahmadinejad in Iran hawking books like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", originally written in Russia in the early 1900s.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2009 01:15

So why do Pakis have special hatred for Jews? I am willing to bet they never came cross one in their lives. And what does the AIPAC and other orgs think about that?

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 31 Mar 2009 01:45

JEMji, Johann has explained it better than I could. If you look at the university societies such as "Friends of Palestine" etc, they usually have a large Cypriot representation. In my university, the president of the society is cypriot. My barber who is of cypriot origin tells me the same about their position. Maybe "biggest" is an over exaggeration. Apologies for that.

Ramana, Its solidarity with Palestinians and they try and keep a similar position to the arabs. The MB networks have also spread their message there. There appears to be large conspiracy theories especially from Pakistan about Jews and their relationship with the freemasons(thats the view of the common abdul from pak), they are convinced they are plotting to take over the world etc etc.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 31 Mar 2009 11:47

ramana wrote:So why do Pakis have special hatred for Jews? I am willing to bet they never came cross one in their lives. And what does the AIPAC and other orgs think about that?


It also does not explain why the Koran reserves special place for Jews, the usual explanation that they did not follow M and hence were in line for his special wrath sounds far more plausible.

After all Islam built its reputation with the massacre of Jews first and foremost (Banu Qurayza), that reputation no doubt did much towards it eventual victory (like the ruthlessness of Mongols defeated their enemies much before Mongols themselves arrived)

This link here also deals with numerous incidents

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... lands_(gen).html

Jews appear to have the distinct honor of being the "first" amongst Dhimmi's for special treatment in Islam, in practice and historically at least if not specially codified in Koran is so many words.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 31 Mar 2009 21:27

Until the 20th century Jews under Muslim power in 99% of the time did not come under special discrimination or hatred - they were treated no better and no worse than dhimmis in general were at that place and time (which is not uniform). Sometimes they had royal protection/alliance and did very well, and sometimes they were kicked around (usually when things were going badly for Muslims), the usual story of dhimmis.


Dhimmi system is itself bad and unjust.Muslim reformers must change quran in this aspect for peace to flourish between muslims and non muslims.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 31 Mar 2009 21:41

ramana wrote:So why do Pakis have special hatred for Jews? I am willing to bet they never came cross one in their lives.


They will do anything to prove they are as good as "Arab" "Muslims".

They might do better job, in this effort, if they were to go about building pyramids and hanging gardens.

A failed mind leads to a failed state.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 31 Mar 2009 22:48

Ramana,

Shyam hit it on the head

- Solidarity with the Arabs in their hatred of the Jewish people who have humiliated the Arabs and taken Islam's third holiest place is seen as mandatory since Pakistan is after all the only nation created for Islam.

There are similar trends in all non-Arab Muslim-majority states, but its strongest and most widely promoted in the countries where state ideology is explicitly Islamist; Pakistan and Iran, and increasingly these days Malaysia.

- Maududi played a huge role in the development of the Muslim Brotherhood's ideology, and as a result many key Palestinian and Egyptian figures developed strong ties to Pakistan. The Muslim Brotherhood was the original parent of both the (relatively) secular Fatah, as well as Hamas. For example the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was the international face of the Palestinians from the 1930s(Arafat's uncle and Hitler's ally) spent a lot of time in Karachi after the Egyptian govt turned on him following the Arab defeat in 1948. So Pakistan has had a long and intense exposure to Arab propaganda at the popular level, longer and more intense than most non-Arab muslim states. Iran for example didnt see as much anti-Semitic rhetoric until Khomeini became the superstar of the anti-Shah movement in the mid to late 1970s.

Darshan,

That goes without saying. In the Muslim majority world modern mobility means that the bulk of minorities who dont want to live as dhimmis are able to leave, and are leaving after having put up with dhimmitude for centuries.

The same sense of entitlement to 'Islamic' norms carried by Muslim minorities in India and Europe generate tremendous tension which has hurt Muslims far more than it has hurt non-Muslims.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 31 Mar 2009 23:23

As far as Israel goes, the Arab-Islamic strategy of mobilisation and polarisation is tragically gaining ground. Jewish and pro-Jewish solidarity is fragmenting, while Islamic and anti-Israeli solidarity is growing worldwide, even here in the Americas.

There are a few factors that can improve their overall situation - political evolution in Iran, the transition to the post-oil & gas economy, and a more effective European carrot and stick approach to assimilating its immigrant Muslim population. The first two are a matter of when, not if it will happen in the medium to long term. The Europe question is much more long term and will go through many twists and turns.

But even if the external situation improves Israel's biggest challenges are internal - explosive Arab Israeli demographics, and the ultra-orthodox Jewish challenge to modernity.

Avigdor Lieberman, who is a hard-right secular Israeli politician (and now the most hated Israeli worldwide since Ariel Sharon's stroke) for example believes that the only way to preserve internal security is to hand over Arab majority areas of Israel proper to a future Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, with incentives for as many Arabs to emigrate as possible. Essentially a re-partitioning of the Mandate territory.

At the same time Liberman wants to take power over civil matters away from the ultra-orthodox Jewish clergy so that it is easier to marry or convert to Judaism - for example the many non-Jewish spouses of Jews, and their children who are in a sort of limbo. Unless Israel summons the will to disempower the ultra-orthodox, things will get very bad.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 01 Apr 2009 00:53

This is a side issue, but I want to clarify it...

Johann/ShyamD

Certainly the Palestinians were not unwelcome in the Greek Cypriot part of Cyprus, or even the Turkish one. However, the biggest supporter thing is highly inaccurate, and shyam has clarified on that point - which is what I was stressing. The Greek Cypriots as people were no more enthusiastic about the Palestinian cause than Indians pre-Oslo, and government position also was remarkably similar to the Indian one actually. The mainland Greek support for the Palestinian cause, too, has been tempered significantly of late from what I can tell. There is a degree of empathy for the Palestinians among Greek Cypriots because of their experience with the Turkish invasion of 1974, etc.

Over the past decade however, attitudes have definitely cooled...although you can still find government statements coming out in favour of Palestinian statehood or rights and so on. Ornery folk, generally does not give a crap about the Palestinians apart from the stock expression of bewilderment and general sympathy for the suffering du jour, whether it is the bombing of Gaza or another suicide bomb in Israel... Most people have tuned out.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby vsudhir » 01 Apr 2009 05:10


Johann
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 01 Apr 2009 06:15

JEM, no disagreements at all.

This is Netanyahu's quote from the article V Sudhir linked from The Atlantic:

Iran “wasted over a million lives without batting an eyelash … It didn’t sear a terrible wound into the Iranian consciousness. It wasn’t Britain after World War I, lapsing into pacifism because of the great tragedy of a loss of a generation. You see nothing of the kind.”

He continued: “You see a country that glorifies blood and death, including its own self-immolation.” I asked Netanyahu if he believed Iran would risk its own nuclear annihilation at the hands of Israel or America. “I’m not going to get into that,” he said.


The Iran-Iraq war did actually have a profound impact on Iran - even Khomeini, a man who never compromised was forced to compromise and accept a truce in 1988 because the population was so war weary. No leader since Khomeini has taken Iran in to an actual war. The loss of lives, the economic impact, the lost generation, all of it had a very sobering impact.

While there are still very powerful mullahs who still seriously believe in the cult of martyrdom, they are a minority, even among mullahs. The majority of mullahs want a nuclear deterrent and great power status, not the nuclear destruction of Iran.

There arent enough people, even in the Pasdaran down the line from Khameini to the button-pusher who would nuke Israel out of the blue *knowing* that retaliation would incinerate not just themselves, but their entire families and much of the Iranian population.

Mao declared he couldnt be deterred by nuclear weapons, which were paper tigers - that no one could kill all the Chinese, and that enough would survive to defeat their enemies. Well, he was deterred by them anyway. The Iranian mullahs are no different. A second strike capacity that can destroy Iran's great cities can and will deter them.

What is much more likely is that Iran's nuclearisation will trigger all sorts of other events, including the succesful nuclearisation of Arab states, the emboldening of Iranian clients like Hamas and Hezb'allah, etc that would make Israel's situation much tougher.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 01 Apr 2009 14:42

>>What is much more likely is that Iran's nuclearisation will trigger all sorts of other events, including the succesful nuclearisation of Arab states, the emboldening of Iranian clients like Hamas and Hezb'allah, etc that would make Israel's situation much tougher.

Yup absolutely. We are definitely going to see an uptick in this sort of non-state plausible deniability bullsh1t booming bigtime. Israel will be a target, and a major one... Everyone is learning from the lesson that Pakistan is teaching, which is: get nukes and then use the low-tech/low-(direct) cost instrument of terrorism to keep adversaries continuously off balance, but unable to hit back. This lesson will have to be untaught. And that can only be done by making an example of the teacher.

If not, many states are going to face a problem, and Israel will be at the forefront of these states.

For a long time now, it has been repeatedly stated on BRF that the major powers do not take Pakistan and their leaders seriously enough. They were seen as instruments, while they are quite capable of having their own agenda, and executing it with guile, cunning and artifice. The Pakistani military leadership has a grand vision for Islamic domination radiating outwards from Islamabad which the major powers find hard to digest, coming from such a nominally hopeless case in every respect, with leaders who can be grovelling and obsequious when the situation calls for it, and who know what to say to calm nerves and dispel suspicions. The means to further their vision and ambition is being handed over to them by these same powers that wish to use Pakistan as an instrument or at least to retain that option. I don't buy this oversight BS. They cannot do oversight as well as the Paks have refined the art of sleight of hand.

Good luck. :twisted:

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby amit » 01 Apr 2009 16:54

NRao wrote: They might do better job, in this effort, if they were to go about building pyramids and hanging gardens.

A failed mind leads to a failed state.


A small point but pyramids and hanging gardens are products of a glorious pre-Islamic past and has nothing to do with Islam.

I couldn't agree more with your comment on failed minds.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby shyamd » 01 Apr 2009 17:57

darshhan wrote:The relevant suras from quran are given below.

sura 5:60

YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
PICKTHAL: Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
SHAKIR: Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

Sura 7:166
YUSUFALI: When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!
SHAKIR: Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated

Sura 2:65
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
SHAKIR: And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated

You can yourself search for above suras and see for yourself if you don't trust me.

also as far as christianity is concerned Bible is not that binding on christians as it claims to have been written by people who were inspired by god.There was no single author for it.Whereas Quran is claimed to have been dictated by god himself so there is no room for deviation.

Anyway in christianity the seperation of church and state has taken place long time back after reformation.Till now there has been no such reformation within islam and judging from the rigidity of their scriptures as well as the lifestory of their founder(muhammad) there is very little scope of such reformation.

What I am saying is that Islam is not a religion but a political movement like nazi movement or communism which aims to submit every human being and every society.

Also there is a difference between Islam and Muslims.While majority of individual muslims may be good or bad like in any other religion Islamic ideology is definitely not good.

Sorry for the late reply regarding the jews being compared to apes and pigs. Did you understand the context of what the Sura is saying? It says those Jews who disobeyed God's command, with regard to performing the sabbath (on a saturday I think), got turned into apes and pigs. Thats actually the same as what is written in the Torah.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby Johann » 01 Apr 2009 20:40

JEM,

Syria has no nukes, and yet as a state sponsor of terrorism for half a century has never really been succesfully dissuaded from pursuing the systematic use of terrorism as a tool. They've received far more of a pounding from Israel than Pakistan has from India for terrorism, lived on the sanctions list for a couple of decade.

The Beka'a Valley was the original international terrorist training ground from the 1970s, with everyone from the LTTE, to Baader Meinhoff, the Japanese Red Army, the Pasdaran, PKK and PLO trained there by Syrian intelligence officers. Hezb'allah in the 1980s, and Hamas in the 1990s. Just like Pakistan later, the cost of that training was subsidised by encouraging and taxing heroin trafficking.

Without Syria, Iran's ability to use Hamas and Hezb'allah to acheive its regional aims decreases very substantially.Their next best bets are Sudan and Yemen, which are peripheral.

The big game has been for Syria for the last couple of years - Israel, Egypt and the Gulf States trying to woo it away from its alliance with Iran. The Bush administration refused to support the initiative believing Syria would never change, but Obama has changed the tune. Can Syria be flipped for the long term in exchange for land, aid and a sphere of influence, the way Egypt was under Sadat? Or will it be like Pakistan, playing every side? We shall have to see.

In general I believe that Iran is going to be more conservative in its behaviour as an undeclared or near-nuclear power than Pakistan was in the 1980s and 1990s.

The key is that the Iranian leadership fears its own people much more than the PA does, and so there are greater limits to the risks that they can take. Until the PA sufficiently fears the Pakistani people, no one in the world will have a handle on Pakistan. The same goes for Syria.

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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 01 Apr 2009 20:51

Sorry for the late reply regarding the jews being compared to apes and pigs. Did you understand the context of what the Sura is saying? It says those Jews who disobeyed God's command, with regard to performing the sabbath (on a saturday I think), got turned into apes and pigs. Thats actually the same as what is written in the Torah


Look where I am concerned these suras don't tell us anything about jews.They actually show the real character of Muhammad and his intense hatred of jews.

As far as what I understand from these suras is that verses 2.65 and 7.166 do relate to breaking of sabbath but 5:60 is more than that.Anyway whether I am interpreting the quran right or wrong is not important.The most important question is how the islamists interpret the above suras and judging from their activities we have a fair idea of that.

From what I have read the Quran is full of hateful verses like this.It is not limited to demonisation of jews.Along with jews and christians there is a lot of hate directed against non believers.Believe me it is not hard to establish the context.The whole book is a information warfare agenda against non believers.

Finally if you are still struggling to establish the right context you don't have to look far.Just study the life of Muhammad and his campaigns against jews.For example, His massacre of Banu Qurayza clan in cold blood and the rape of Safiya(yes that's rape).

By the way can you tell me where it is written in torah that some jews were converted to apes.Please show me the link


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