Indo-French Ties

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Philip
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Indo-French Ties

Postby Philip » 25 Jan 2008 17:30

Visite de Président Sarkozy

(Visit of Pres.Sarkozy)

Bienvenu à l'Inde M.lePresident! L'Inde vous accueille et veut que la prochaine fois vous apporte avec vous votre époux délicieux, Mlle Carla Bruli pour titiller nos vies!

(Welcome to India M.le President.India welcomes you and wishes that next time you bring with you your delightful consort ,Miss Carla Bruli to titillate our lives!)

Sérieusement M.le le Président, nos forces armées sont dans le besoin sinistre de modernisation et la France a traditionnellement été un des amis les plus estimés ansd les fournisseurs d'équipement militaire.

(Seriously M.le President,our armed forces are in dire need of modernisation and France has traditionally been one of most valued friends and suppliers of military eqpt.)

Comme vous savez bien,ecouter nos frontières occidentales est l'épicentre de terrorisme Islamiste global, l'état dévoyé du Pakistan. Le Pakistan a aussi été le destinataire de bras français modernes pendant des temps où c'était relativement plus démocratique et stable. Cependant, c'est maintenant un état dévoyé, se séparant sous le poids de fondamentalisme Islamiste effréné qui possède aussi des armes nucléaires.

(As you well know , across our western borders is the epicentre of global Islamist terrorism, the rogue state of Pakistan. Pakistan was also the destination of modern French arms during a time when it was relatively more democratic and more stable. However, it is now a rogue state, collapsing under the weight of Islamist fundamentalism, which also possesses nuclear weapons.)


C'est une question de souci global immense. Les nations demcoratic de ce monde sont tout en danger. L'hyperventilant fou qui mène il a pris son pays au bord de l'abîme et est ignorant quant à la façon de le reconstituer à la normalité. La France et l'Inde doivent travailler ensemble intimement pour reconstituer la stabilité à la région et le monde.

(It is a question of immense global concern. Democratic nations of this world are all in danger. The hyperventilating lunatic which leads it has taken his country to the edge of the abyss and is clueless as how to restore it to normality. France and India have to work together intimately to restore stability in the region and the globe.)

Le besoin de l'heure est donc pour tous les deux nos pays pour conclure des accords comme des associés pour développer ensemble et équiper les forces armées Indiennes à la terre, la mer et l'air, avec l'équipement militaire Français d'avant-garde, profitant tant nos nations qu'empêchant l'état échoué du Pakistan d'acquérir des armes fron la France et l'ouest qui fera la paix globale endager et agissant de concert avec d'autres, neutraliser ses armes nucléaires.

Tant nos républiques sont basées sur les bases de liberté, l'égalité que la fraternité et peuvent les relations fraternelles qui exister betweem tous les deux nos nations être mis les niveaux encore plus hauts de plaisir mutuel.

(The need of the hour is therefore for both our countries to conclude agreements as partners to develop together and equip the Indian armed forces at land,sea and air ,with cutting edge French military equipment,benefiting both our nations and preventing the failed state of Pakistan from acquiring weaponry fron France and the west which will endager global peace and acting in concert with others,to neutralise its nuclear weaponry.

Both our republics are based upon the foundations of liberty,equality and fraternity and may the fraternal relations that exist betweem both our nations be taken to even higher levels of mutual enjoyment.

Vive le France! Vive l'Inde!

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Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2008 22:38

Good idea Philip. You think quite ahead... there is a realignment of forces in Western Europe due to the financial meltdown. Need to take advantage.

Meanwhile x-posted

Rudranathh wrote:Sarkozy backs India's nuclear energy needs, UNSC bid

Fri, Jan 25, 2008

New Delhi, Jan 25 - France backs India's nuclear energy needs and also its claim for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy said Friday while calling for expansion of the elite G-8 grouping 'to G-13' with India as a member.

Sarkozy said the right words to bring a smile on the faces of his Indian hosts at a joint press conference with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after talks during which he also lobbied for raising bilateral trade and intensifying defence cooperation.

Stating that there was a 'lot of convergence on international issues', Sarkozy said: 'We will put some concrete in our strategic will'. He also asserted that Indo-French strategic partnership would get 'fresh impetus' from the visit.

Visiting India just three days after British Prime Minister Gordon Brown was in New Delhi with a similar pro-India message, Sarkozy, accompanied by a large business delegation, said he understood India's need for nuclear energy to fund the country's rapidly increasing growth.

'We know that India's energy needs are huge. If we don't allow civilian nuclear energy, then they will go to more polluting sources,' said Sarkozy, who arrived Friday on a two-day visit.

'France can be an advocate for nuclear energy cooperation with India,' he said, adding that his country wanted to help India make the right choice for 'sustainable development'.

'India has never contributed to proliferation,' Sarkozy said.

Speaking at the press conference, Singh appreciated France's 'steadfast support for the lifting of international restrictions on nuclear cooperation with India that are still in place'.

He added that negotiators have concluded a bilateral agreement for co-operation in the civil nuclear field.

According to the Joint Statement, released after the talks, this proposed pact would cover the entire gambit 'from basic and applied research to full civil nuclear cooperation including reactors, fuel supply and management'.

But the document was not signed at Friday's ceremony as no co-operation pact could be unveiled unless India signed a safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency and got a waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group.

The government also has to get the go-ahead from its intransigent Left allies to initial the safeguards agreement - which is necessary for the United States Congress to consider the text of a bilateral agreement to operationalise the India-US nuclear deal.

According to Sarkozy, once an international waiver was obtained to enable the resumption of nuclear commerce with India and once the domestic debate in India on the issue -- 'on which I obviously don't want to comment' -- had blown over, France could come into the picture. He noted that France's flagship nuclear power company Areva could help India.

On the delay in reaching a final safeguards agreement, Singh said, 'international negotiations do take some time'. 'Our discussions are moving forward and it is my sincere hope that they can be successfully concluded without loss of further time,' he added.

While this agreement could not be signed Friday, the two countries signed deals in nuclear research 'which is a key for preparing for the future'. In this area, they agreed to intensify contacts between nuclear safety authorities in 'the context of future industrial cooperation'.

At the press conference, India's Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar signed a deal for the department of atomic energy's participation in the research project Jules Horowitz Reactor, built by the French Atomic Energy Commission at Cadarache.

Sarkozy also reiterated traditional French support for a permanent seat for India in an expanded UN Security Council.

Agreeing with Singh's statement that global institutions should reflect contemporary reality, the French president called for an expansion of the G-8 group of industrialised economies to turn into G-13, including India.

On the defence front, the prime minister said that they had 'agreed to go beyond the buyer-seller relationship' and put the spotlight on 'joint research and development projects, transfer of technology and greater military exchanges'.

India's third largest military supplier, France had been hoping to garner the contract for supply of light helicopters to the Indian army as part of an European consortium, Eurocopter. But the tender was scrapped in December 2007 due to irregularities cited by central auditors. Though the French were miffed, they have got their eye on other defence deals including the upgradation of Mirage 2000 fighter planes of the Indian Air Force.

In a significant decision, India has agreed to start discussions on a 'Status of force' agreement, with France, which governs the stationing of troops in each other's territory.

Both leaders set a target to raise the current level of bilateral trade of $6.23 billion (4.23 billion euros) in 2007 to $17.6 billion (12 billion euros) in 2012. Sarkozy asserted that there would be 10 billion euros of French investment over the next four years.

The four agreements signed Friday included for protection of classified defence information, transfer of prisoners, and cooperation between India's Department of Atomic Energy and its French counterpart on developing the Jules Horowitz nuclear reactors and establishment of the French development agency, Agence Française de Développement. A MoU on the establishment in India of an international laboratory in the field of neurosciences was also inked.

The two sides also released a joint declaration on the fight against global warming.


What does the agreement on stationing forces mean? Where do they plan to do this? Reunion Island? That would be a natural as India takes over in the Indian Ocean approaches.

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Postby bala » 25 Jan 2008 22:52

Image
Image

France seeks Indian investments; 3-fold rise in trade target
After committing to treble bilateral trade to Euro 12 billion by 2012, France on Friday said it needs Indian investment and promised to reciprocate through aggressive engagement by its firms in the India growth story.

"French economy needs capital and entrepreneurship of Indian investors," its President Nicolas Sarkozy said at a meeting with leaders of Indian and French industry here.

He said France is keen to be India's long-term strategic, economic, scientific and academic partner. "We are prepared to multiply our partnership".

Seeking greater involvement for French companies in the world's second fastest growing major economy, he said the Indian industry and the government should "make some room for them," and they would not disappoint their counterparts here.

Referring to the issue of possible job losses in a steel plant run by NRI industrialist L N Mittal's firm in France, Sarkozy said the problems could be resolved as friends. "I meet with you (pointing towards Mittal seated in the meeting) as a friend, not as an opponent," he said.

Asking India to take a leadership role in the issue of climate change, Sarkozy said: "Never France shall ask you to choose between growth and environment." But it was asking India to take up new form of growth model that protects environment and the interest of poor people who depend on less than two dollars a day.

He said if there was any country in the world, which "feels concern for environment, it is you (India)."

Earlier in the day, both the countries committed themselves to achieving an ambitious target of reaching Euro 12 billion in bilateral trade by 2012 and significantly stepping up investments. The trade at present is Euro 4.08 billion.

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Postby derkonig » 25 Jan 2008 23:49

bah...cheese eating surrender monkeys, apart from some mil hardware, what else has fwance got to offer india?

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Postby Gerard » 25 Jan 2008 23:54

French political support, post Pok-2, was quite helpful...

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Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2008 23:56

derKonig, Why dont you try to find out?

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Postby pradeepe » 25 Jan 2008 23:56

Thats in bad taste. Keep in mind, they were one of the few who understood after Pokhran.

What they have to offer, will save lives too. Why pee on everyone, either there is infinite pee which is not good or pick good peeing spots.

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Postby Hitesh » 26 Jan 2008 00:05

The French will sell anything to anyone for a price. Don't forget the sales of submarines to Pakistan by France.

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Postby Rye » 26 Jan 2008 00:22

Looks like some of the folks here are mimicing the derisive attitudes of the Americans towards the French.

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Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2008 00:23

Hitesh wrote:The French will sell anything to anyone for a price. Don't forget the sales of submarines to Pakistan by France.


Hitesh, They did that because they had no penalties in doing that. If they are kept at a distance they will repeat it. India has to build leverages of trade and clout that forces them to understand Indian interests. In fact with moral posturing GOI has ensured that they are friendless and its no brainer to make a buck even it effects Indian interests. The West understands that as the DIE have no Indian interests. The DIE patter about international norms and standards and not about Indian norms and Indian standards.

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Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2008 01:44

Deccan chronicle reports

[quote]
India, France will explore troop pact


New Delhi, Jan. 25: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Friday said that India and France have decided to consolidate their defence and security ties. Both countries accordingly agreed to negotiate a Status of Forces Agreement and intensify counter-terrorism cooperation. A Status of Forces Agreement (Sofa) is an agreement between a country and a foreign nation stationing military forces in that country. It is intended to clarify the terms under which the foreign military is allowed to operate.

“In the area of defence cooperation, we have agreed to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship. We will increasingly focus on joint research and development projects, transfer of technology, and greater military exchanges,â€

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Postby venkat_r » 26 Jan 2008 01:54

What are the cons of stationing the US troups in India on such an agreement. Seems like country of origin is going to pay for the troups.

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Postby A Sharma » 26 Jan 2008 01:56

India, France sign five agreements

India and France today signed five agreements, including one for cooperation in the field of nuclear research.

The agreements were signed after talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy here.

The agreement between French Atomic Energy Commission and the Department of Atomic Energy was for constructing and operating Jules Hotowitz (JH) reactor.

The reactor will be built by the French Atomic Commission at Cadarache in France.

An MoU that establishes cooperation between the Baba Atomic Research Centre and the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research on the one hand and GANIL on the other on the use of spiral 2 high intensity beam production system will be signed in Mumbai.
GANIL (Grand Accelerateur National d"Ions Lourds) is a heavy ion accelerator based at Caen in France.

Both countries also agreed to intensify exchanges between their nuclear scientists, establish structures for training and undertake nuclear safety research.

In addition, the dialogue between nuclear safety authorities of respective countries will be reinforced, especially in the context of future industrial cooperation.

In the defence sector, an agreement was signed on mutual protection of classified information while both sides agreed to take defence ties beyond buyer-seller relationship.

They decided to initiate detailed discussion on status of Forces Agreement and agreed to intensify joint programmes and prospects in defence industry, conduct joint research and facilitate transfer of technology.

Agreements were also signed on transfer of sentenced prisoners and on India-French Development Cooperation through French Development Agency.

An MoU was also signed on establishing an International Associated Laboratory in the field of Neuro Science.

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Postby Hitesh » 26 Jan 2008 02:15

ramana wrote:
Hitesh wrote:The French will sell anything to anyone for a price. Don't forget the sales of submarines to Pakistan by France.


Hitesh, They did that because they had no penalties in doing that. If they are kept at a distance they will repeat it. India has to build leverages of trade and clout that forces them to understand Indian interests. In fact with moral posturing GOI has ensured that they are friendless and its no brainer to make a buck even it effects Indian interests. The West understands that as the DIE have no Indian interests. The DIE patter about international norms and standards and not about Indian norms and Indian standards.


I understand that but what I said earlier should caution those who envision a more rapport relationship with France. I would not rely too much on the French otherwise we would be making the same mistake as we did with Russia.

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Postby Rudranathh » 26 Jan 2008 21:45

France nuke hug with eye on sky race

New Delhi, Jan. 25: France today upped the ante in the race to bag big military contracts from India and President Nicolas Sarkozy offered strong support to a possible waiver of international rules for India to be able to conduct nuclear commerce.

India and France decided after bilateral talks to take their defence ties “beyond a buyer-seller relationshipâ€

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Postby Rudranathh » 26 Jan 2008 21:55

Delhi, Paris firm up nuclear pact
President Sarkozy compliments India on non-proliferation record

NEW DELHI: India and France on Friday sought to give a new momentum to their relations by finalising an agreement for cooperation in the civil nuclear field and agreeing to move defence ties beyond the buyer-seller relationship.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said this at a joint news conference with the visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy at the end of their talks.
Defence cooperation

...Defence relationship between the two nations began in the 1950s, and the sales and maintenance support remained uninterrupted despite the 1965 war and the 1974 and 1998 nuclear tests.

In the civil nuclear field, France helped India in setting up the Fast Breeder Test Reactor at Kalpakkam near Chennai and the heavy water production facility in Vadodara in Gujarat. It also supplied enriched uranium for the Tarapur plant following the suspension of supplies by the U.S. after 1974.

Dr. Singh and Mr. Sarkozy underlined the need for reforming multilateral institutions, with Paris once again supporting New Delhi’s bid for a permanent seat in an expanded United Nations Security Council.

Intelligence sharing
Both countries reaffirmed their resolve to ensure close cooperation between their intelligence agencies to combat terrorism. “We both have experienced Islamic terrorism in the same manner. India is in a region where France has troops. I need not spell out why we should strengthen cooperation between the intelligence services,â€

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Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2008 21:55

france is a structure for "chores" [hindi]. from billions and zillions they can wipe out our national exchequer as well. there could some agent here and there, matrix type, keep cloning, and chewing every little oppty IAF gives to them.

otoh, they have something to sell., that is interesting as well. how do we set and cross lines. of two evils, we have to choose the lesser. russkies hide in the lower cost lines, and thus could be considered a bigger evil for the long run.

we could have a new theory... off two evils defined for a period of time, choose the lesser for an extended period of time., and go on on a cyclical periods of choosing evils.

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Postby Rye » 26 Jan 2008 21:58

Unlike the USA and the UK, the French do not try to cloak their mercenary realpolitik with moral, human rights, and the right to spread their own evangelical brand of christianity (referred to as "freedom of religion")...this seems to irritate US policymakers to no end.


If we observe, France is trying to engage India in all the same fields that the Americans are, and yet the French have not given any moralizing lectures to India (like the Madeleine Halfbrights and her successors have done) about lack of religious freedom.

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Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2008 22:23

ok.. vote for this:-

1. France offers sophisticated planes at freaking high cost, and would keep mouth wide shut!

2. Amriks offers sophisticated planes at optimal cost, but would come with genesis lecture that we must hear.

3. Russkies offer crappy planes at cheapo cost, and would ensure we are stuck with socialistic, evilistic, communistic measures, and maintains to be present like a virus.

4. Europe as a whole, combines 1 & 2.

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Postby JCage » 26 Jan 2008 23:07

derkonig wrote:bah...cheese eating surrender monkeys, apart from some mil hardware, what else has fwance got to offer india?


Does this kind of rant even belong on BRF?

When you call the French cheese eating surrender monkeys- try to read up about Napoleons contributions to warfare, or Charles Martel, or the French Foreign Legion...
Last edited by JCage on 26 Jan 2008 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JCage » 26 Jan 2008 23:10

SaiK wrote:ok.. vote for this:-

1. France offers sophisticated planes at freaking high cost, and would keep mouth wide shut!

2. Amriks offers sophisticated planes at optimal cost, but would come with genesis lecture that we must hear.

3. Russkies offer crappy planes at cheapo cost, and would ensure we are stuck with socialistic, evilistic, communistic measures, and maintains to be present like a virus.

4. Europe as a whole, combines 1 & 2.


Can you tell me when and where are Russian planes crappy?

Are you referring to the MiG-35?

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Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2008 23:47

more or less..yes. that was within the context of current needs and offers.. MRCA context.

btw, my crappy thoughts falls more in "quality" issues rather features.

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Postby JCage » 27 Jan 2008 00:18

SaiK wrote:more or less..yes. that was within the context of current needs and offers.. MRCA context.

btw, my crappy thoughts falls more in "quality" issues rather features.


Quality is good. Spares issues can be overcome to some extent by local manufacture.

But its long term strategy which should count, India cant just be reliant on one manufacturer alone.

I would be darn happy if either the Rafale or EF joined the IAF.

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Postby Neshant » 27 Jan 2008 04:52

> Keep in mind, they were one of the few who understood after Pokhran

folks,

When france conducted its nuke bomb test in the south pacific, India was likewise one of the only countries not to make a critical statement about it. Throw in the augusta sales made to paksitan and we can call it even.

Certainly they did help India during Pokhran. I recall that the UK wanted to call an emergency conference in Europe to get everyone to agree on sactions against India. France refused to go along with it and the UK was caught with its pants down. Surely one of the worst diplomatic disasters.

The UK later claimed that they were the ones who prevented Europe wide sanctions against India but the cat was out of the bag and the damage was already done.

Anyway one thing this visit highlights is that the nuclear sanction strangehold on India is soon to collapse. Give it another year or year and a half.

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Postby sum » 27 Jan 2008 08:43

[quote]Intelligence sharing
Both countries reaffirmed their resolve to ensure close cooperation between their intelligence agencies to combat terrorism. “We both have experienced Islamic terrorism in the same manner. India is in a region where France has troops. I need not spell out why we should strengthen cooperation between the intelligence services,â€

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Postby Johann » 27 Jan 2008 09:02

Neshant, the UK has seldom been embarassed at failing to achieve consensus with the French.

Blair (the Hinduja connection) was against sanctions on India after the test, but there was an internal power struggle with Robin Cook and the left wing of Labour, who were for sanctions.

Cook and the left wing lost, as they did in most battles with Blair. Of course Cook and the left wing are/were also in favour of unilateral British nuclear disarmament.

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Postby pradeepe » 27 Jan 2008 09:39

Sarkozy visits Taj Mahal and says he'll be back.

He supposedlty left this cryptic note in the visitor's book: "Inoubliable. A bientot" - Meaning, "Unforgettable, See you soon".

"Inoubliable" - sounds like a BR version to me :)

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Postby Roop » 27 Jan 2008 21:51

JCage wrote:Does this kind of rant even belong on BRF?


Of course not, but you have to understand that there are a few members of the "God Bless America" crowd here who seek to prove their own manhood by this mindless chant "cheese-eating surrender monkeys". It's embarassing -- not for France but for BRF, that someone with the IQ of a Homer Simpson gets to post here.

Your comment about Napoleon etc. is apt. People should read a little history before pronouncing judgement on these matters.

Rye wrote:Unlike the USA and the UK, the French do not try to cloak their mercenary realpolitik with moral, human rights, and the right to spread their own evangelical brand of christianity (referred to as "freedom of religion")...this seems to irritate US policymakers to no end.


Not just US policy makers. Refer to my comments above about the "God Bless America" crowd.

Personally, I don't give a damn if France, US, UK, Russia, whoever look out for their own interests first and foremost. I expect nothing less. I just want the GoI to grow a backbone and a pair of b@lls and look out for India's interests first and foremost. If they can do that consistently, the Republic is safe and secure.

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Postby vsudhir » 27 Jan 2008 23:39

JCage wrote:Does this kind of rant even belong on BRF?


No, IMHO.

Mohan Raju wrote:Of course not, but you have to understand that there are a few members of the "God Bless America" crowd here who seek to prove their own manhood by this mindless chant "cheese-eating surrender monkeys". It's embarassing -- not for France but for BRF, that someone with the IQ of a Homer Simpson gets to post here.


True.
In my younger days in the USofA (post 9/11 during the flagwaving mania) I too was sweptoff and all that. Hoped against hope then that mighty yamrika would finally join the great civilizational war against jihad etc. Actually believed in the freedom spiel that flies around liberally in yankeeland.

Of course all that never happened but one finds excuses anyway to explian things not going their way.

Then I discovered BRF. Over time (a period of months) POVs changed. Opinions+facts poured in. It takes time but as long as a guy has a good heart, truth will its way in. IMVVHO, of course.

Your comment about Napoleon etc. is apt. People should read a little history before pronouncing judgement on these matters.

Those who read their hostory before posting reflect the same in their posts. The 'price' (or better, 'value') of such posts is high. Its a free mkt as far as I know and the mkt finds its equilibrium in price terms. So far, at any rate.

Rye wrote:Unlike the USA and the UK, the French do not try to cloak their mercenary realpolitik with moral, human rights, and the right to spread their own evangelical brand of christianity (referred to as "freedom of religion")...this seems to irritate US policymakers to no end.


Nicely put.
As if TSP, Iraq and other reasons weren't enough already (I initially convinced myself to support Iraq, admittedly), EJism and the covert support of the 'west' to naxalvad was what finally broke the camel's back. I'm now firmly against the covert yamriki agenda in moi country.

Bottomline: People's perspective evolves over time. It cannot be forced, IMHO. That's my sense of lived history speaking.
Cursing someone's IQ, posting rights, spraying labels around at other posters ('abc crowd') etc might just be a tad excessive. But it must be part of the game on BRF, I guess, if old-timers choose to post like that. But hey, thats JMTP.

Std disclaimers hold.
/Have a nice day.

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Postby Hitesh » 28 Jan 2008 00:09

Rye wrote:Unlike the USA and the UK, the French do not try to cloak their mercenary realpolitik with moral, human rights, and the right to spread their own evangelical brand of christianity (referred to as "freedom of religion")...this seems to irritate US policymakers to no end.
.


Errr.... The French do lecture on moral, human rights. They just stick it up to Uncle Sam and the Brits. Hence the irritation by US and UKs with France.

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Postby SaiK » 28 Jan 2008 00:22

you guys are missing what i am trying to trigger discussion and i wanted those triggers to naturally lead to a discussion that be it french, amrikha, ayorope or russkie.. it only matters for short term [10 years max, now and it was 20 years earlier], that these strategies and defence related purchase that can be coupled and relied on. every firangi supplier has emboldened our enemies to hard core, and the lesser is more of russians than france. france is a double-crosser from that angle.

hence, the drive i wanted was, all these are stop gap.. and our main objective should lca, mca, and all that hal can assemble and sell to our forces, especially driven by drdo. if drdo fails, then we have to go for mrca type of offset deals, that should again drive and trigger drdo, to learn and boost their confidence, and renew their setup and objectives.

we need to drive everything to where we have to focus.. those precision engineering and technology research shops. who can help us more there?

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Postby bart » 28 Jan 2008 00:26

Hitesh wrote:
Rye wrote:Unlike the USA and the UK, the French do not try to cloak their mercenary realpolitik with moral, human rights, and the right to spread their own evangelical brand of christianity (referred to as "freedom of religion")...this seems to irritate US policymakers to no end.
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Errr.... The French do lecture on moral, human rights. They just stick it up to Uncle Sam and the Brits. Hence the irritation by US and UKs with France.


If that were true, it should be fine by us. It is about time someone lectured the Anglos about morals and human rights, they more than anyone else are in need of such lectures.

However, if you look at record, most of the incidents you are probably referring to, the French were right, the US were wrong, and the UK knew they were wrong but were to chicken to go against the US. The most recent cause for anti-French heartburn in the US was the Iraq war. The French were absolutely right in their assessment, and the irony is that after 4 years of Iraq, most Americans themselves are toeing the French line. Contrast that with the attitude of the halfbrights and others wrt India on a string of issues, such as Burma, nukes, Kashmir, etc.

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Postby Vivek K » 28 Jan 2008 00:31

I wonder if India asked France the hard questions - i.e. supply of Augusta subs and their license mfr in Pakistan. Similar questions need to be asked all around. Since India is in a state of undeclared war with Pakistan, any military supply to pakistan (F-16s, RD-93, F-7) etc should be viewed as a hostile act.

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Postby Neshant » 28 Jan 2008 01:23

They do not have very many avenues to sell their (expensive) military goods.

Part of the reason US is supplying pakistan with F-16s and long range missiles is to help get france a customer (i.e. India). The French have not managed to make a major sale of their planes or ships in years. US fears it may open its doors to China soon.

India ends up being the loser here as its being manipulated.

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Postby Johann » 28 Jan 2008 07:14

Hitesh wrote:Errr.... The French do lecture on moral, human rights. They just stick it up to Uncle Sam and the Brits.


I've never heard the French government, or the Gaullists do that. As opposed to the French left, which sounds like the left everywhere.

Most lot of it comes down to differences world-views on the nature of alliance and consensus.

The Anglo-American view is that allies must work out differences behind closed doors, and show a united front to the world, even when there are disagreements.

The French see no contradiction in proclaiming alliance, and acting as allies on some issues, while openly differing with allies on issues where they strongly disagree.

The friction with the French is usually over cases where the French make high-profile and obstructive moves, rather than abstain, or chose low-profile ways to register their unhappiness.

One of the reasons that there is a wider Western alliance despite these agreements is because the French can not conceive of jettisoning these alliances over differences - however much the Americans (in particular) assume that each difference represents the death of the alliance.

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Postby Baljeet » 28 Jan 2008 07:20

JCage wrote:
derkonig wrote:bah...cheese eating surrender monkeys, apart from some mil hardware, what else has fwance got to offer india?


Does this kind of rant even belong on BRF?

When you call the French cheese eating surrender monkeys- try to read up about Napoleons contributions to warfare, or Charles Martel, or the French Foreign Legion...

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If you ever get off your high horse of arrogance and decide to visit france, I suggest you visit MontPellier, site of French Military training ground. Town is really beautiful too. I personally find French people more humble and down to earth than americans and brits.

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Postby derkonig » 28 Jan 2008 10:31

JCage wrote:
derkonig wrote:bah...cheese eating surrender monkeys, apart from some mil hardware, what else has fwance got to offer india?


Does this kind of rant even belong on BRF?

When you call the French cheese eating surrender monkeys- try to read up about Napoleons contributions to warfare, or Charles Martel, or the French Foreign Legion...

dude dude dude

napolean was not fwench..he was corsican..not a mainland fwench...
fwench foreign legion is err. foreign ...mostly mercenaries..
& besides, fwench military is a joke at best...
read about ww-2, vichy fwance, dien-bien-phu/indo-china, algeria..
alos dont forget the fwench elite "peacekeepers" currently in lebanon...
& also those elite fwench commandos who fled from north afganistan
, which is apparently the safest part of afganistan......
just check out their track record in major conflicts..
they are not called "surrender monkeys" for no reason...
BRF shud be the last place to fall for all that fwench charm...
charles martel, hmm..now he was fwench..but that was like a millenium ago.....

the best way out for Hindustan is not to fall for the sweet talks of any of these nations & that includes unkil as well...
indigenization & self-reliance is the way out..
as for fwance being pro-india..when did that ever happen...
you think they are less "EJ" than unkil?
heard of raging EJ cedric "2000" prakash? fwench honored him with their highest civilian award..& he is not the only EJ in that regard...
Last edited by derkonig on 28 Jan 2008 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby SaiK » 28 Jan 2008 10:35

france lives on the fear market for unkil.. china.. pakistan, etc.. and indirectly aiming India, since we don't want all eggs in one russket.

china will sure has money to pay for rafales.. and so does they get couple of squadrons to pakis, if they are willing to rob paul [unki], and pay peter [vip frenchies].

singapore, middle east et al have chosen against rafale cause of unkil.. and the rafalers are now seeking the last attempt for a straight market fight.. and if they happen to fail to ef2k or unkil, then they might sure campaign on the china side [100% double cross genes].

btw, their pimp blood would always accept us with a smilie face, if we show the $$$$$.

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Postby Philip » 28 Jan 2008 11:44

For those who know the French better,they are far more hospitable to India and Indian sentiments than several other nations,one in the southern hemisphere wanting to beef up its sub numbers to meet "the threat from India!".France has been very pragmatic with its relations with India and perhaps culturally is closest to us out of all western nations in embracing and celebrating Indian culture. Look at Auroville in Pondicherry for an example.

Apart from their cheeses (glorious stuff !), those who have visited France, experinced true French hospitality,their charming women and French culture have enjoyed life! There are enormous ways in which Indo-French relations can be strengthened and nurtured from every point of view.Tourism is just one example.A foreign travel company with a branch in India recently told me that they had sent the maximum number of French tourists of any agency to Kerala last year.The world about us is not an Anglo-Saxon preserve.Just visit Mauritius for exampleand see how the Indian majority have embraced and amalgamated French and Indian culture in their lifestyles.

The French offer of 40+ Rafales as a quick interim solution to the IAFs rapidly reducing numbers should be examined seriously.In fact,I would prefer a deal where we exchange all our old Mirage-2000s in stages for about 100-120+ Rafales.This is apart from the 126 MMRCA deal,which by all standards will take aeons to decide (remember the decades to select the Hawk?!).Another similar deal for exchanging/upgrading the old MIG-29s for MIG-29OVT/35s should also be done.Both these decisions will provoke little controversy provided the top brass of the IAF are as pragmatic in thinking.Moreover,the 5th-gen fighter will be flying according to Russian sources during late 2009/early 2010 and if the aircraft as indicated is a smaller aircraft than the SU-27,coming along with exotic new capabilities and weaponry,it will be interesting to see the thinking of the IAF on the MMRCA then.Any delay in either/both the 5th-gen fighter will not be felt if the Rafale and extra MIG-29/35s are procured.

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Postby vina » 28 Jan 2008 12:31

Philip wrote:France has been very pragmatic with its relations with India and perhaps culturally is closest to us out of all western nations in embracing and celebrating Indian culture.

That is a huge stretch Philip.. Lets face it. For the French, India is not as well known as it is for the Brits.. The French focus more on their former colonies around the world..


Look at Auroville in Pondicherry for an example.

Apart from their cheeses (glorious stuff !), those who have visited France, experinced true French hospitality,their charming women and French culture have enjoyed life! There are enormous ways in which Indo-French relations can be strengthened and nurtured from every point of view.


Ah. Now you are talking man.. I swear by the boulangerie in Auroville. Absolutely the best bread I have had after moving out of New York City.. That actually brought back such an urge to move back to Manhattan and it's delis.. Sigh.. And of course Hidesign's hotel in Glaubert ave.. (I forget the name of that.it faces the sea) has some of the absolutely best continental and french food this side of the earth.. Just absolutely pigged out on it.. I just absolutely loved Pondicherry.. Kind of place I would like to retire to.. after buying a house in the French quarter..

Ah.. and cheese.. Like my French fried always used to say.. What is life without camemebert? .. (the unpasteurized variety onlee..thank you.. none of that pastuerized rubbish you see in Spencer's and HomeFoods kind of places)..

And the wines.. Yeah.. The frenchies really know how to live it up.


Just visit Mauritius for exampleand see how the Indian majority have embraced and amalgamated French and Indian culture in their lifestyles.


Yep.. must do that soon.. Do you know if March-April is a good time to visit?


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