The Red Menace

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somnath
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

Arjun wrote:Spare me the 'elite / non-elite' prattle - I have never been the one to focus on that
Really? Werent you the one going on about "elite school" and "logic" connectivites sometime back on this thread? In any case, if you are not, good for you - because this nonsense has no bearing on the discussion...
Arjun wrote:Since you insist on bringing up 'eliteness' as a criteria- all I can say is, from what little I know of your educational background, I wouldn't be so sure as to which one of us is the 'non-elite'...
First of all, I didnt "bring it up" - some people, yourself included, seem to have a vicarious tendency of "bringing it up" to make points, rather digs that are completely non sequitor..About my education etc, you know about nothing about me, so spare me that rubbish...Even if you did, it isnt material to anything being discussed...Its when you run out of anything material to say that you need to resort to inanities like this...
Arjun wrote:and then follow that up with a wail that Swami Agnivesh' and R Guha's views on Salwa Judum are not taken seriously
Some more great powers of comprehension...What I said was this..
And yes, its amusing that people like Swami Agnivesh, Ram Guha et al are all described as "INC/missionary/leftist"-loving fifth columnists when they oppose Salwa Judum..Wonder what happens to their political prefernces when they talk of Lok Pal, enthusiastically cheered on by the "nationalists"!
Onviously its beyond you to comprehend what is being said here - the fallacy of terming someone INC-camper when he critiques Salwa Judum, when the same person is busy embarrasing INC on corruption!
Arjun wrote:Both of these worthies would be the first persons to admit to these labels ! Don't tell me you actually want to dispute this !! Both have been extensively quoted where they have distanced themselves completely from the BJP.
Splendid...So non-supporter of BJP = supporter of INC/Left!! You are for us or with the terrorists!

In all these glorious deductions, not one substantive substantive point on the critique of C'garh's CI strategy! Mabe you need to be reead the posts a bit more "slowly" in order to comprehend what is being said...And think a bit "slowly" too, in order to make a substantive point...
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:First of all, I didnt "bring it up" - some people, yourself included, seem to have a vicarious tendency of "bringing it up" to make points, rather digs that are completely non sequitor..About my education etc, you know about nothing about me, so spare me that rubbish...Even if you did, it isnt material to anything being discussed...Its when you run out of anything material to say that you need to resort to inanities like this...
Others might have brought it up - I have not. Would be rather hypocritical of me to do so. As regards 'sparing you the rubbish on your education' do try and remember that it cuts both ways and your reference to 'non elites' initiated this particular exchange.
Onviously its beyond you to comprehend what is being said here - the fallacy of terming someone INC-camper when he critiques Salwa Judum, when the same person is busy embarrasing INC on corruption!
Joining up with Anna Hazare ? Hazare's movement took away the thunder from BJP as much as it is embarassing INC. That is absolutely no touchstone to measure the political proclivities of any person on.
Splendid...So non-supporter of BJP = supporter of INC/Left!! You are for us or with the terrorists!
R Guha has made it very plain that he considers the Congress to be the best political alternative in the country today. Let me know if you need any references to assist in jogging your memory.

'Swami' Agnivesh is NOT just a non-supporter of BJP - he has openly expressed his virulent opposition to the BJP and the Sangh Parivar. Again, let me know if you need any assistance on backing this up. As per your logic, what does virulent opposition against the BJP imply - that he is actually a centrist OR he that he is a covert BJP supporter ??!! Do expound on your logic.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

Arjun wrote:Others might have brought it up - I have not. Would be rather hypocritical of me to do so. As regards 'sparing you the rubbish on your education' do try and remember that it cuts both ways and your reference to 'non elites' initiated this particular exchange
Well, if it wasnt hypocrisy, then maybe this was just verbal callisthenics?
Arjun wrote:Best not to blame Elite Iskool for the inadequacies of some of its alumni !! Not all students may be at the same level of 'eliteness' in reasoning ability as the Iskool might like.
Or was it just flame?

In any case, I am tired of this juvenile line of discussion - in case you dont havea bee in your bonnet about "elite/non elite", just knock it off from your posts...There is no value being added..
Arjun wrote:oining up with Anna Hazare ? Hazare's movement took away the thunder from BJP as much as it is embarassing INC. That is absolutely no touchstone to measure the political proclivities of any person on
--------------
'Swami' Agnivesh is NOT just a non-supporter of BJP - he has openly expressed his virulent opposition to the BJP and the Sangh Parivar. Again, let me know if you need any assistance on backing this up. As per your logic, what does virulent opposition against the BJP imply - that he is actually a centrist OR he that he is a covert BJP supporter ??!!
???? Indeed...So opposition to BJP = bootlicker of the INC/Left??? Maybe Agnivesh was talking about the INC in Mars when he went on his public crusade against Chidambaram and the AP govt in the aftermath of Azad's killing?? And the movement on Lokpal was primarily to embarrass the BJP?! :roll:

Seriously, (barring the fallacy of describing them as a INC-bootlicker to divert the discussion) Agnivesh's politics (or Ram Guha's) is besides the point here...The point is on the state's CI approach...Substantive critiques take a lot more of "slow reading", of posts, and more importantly of the tremendous amount of literature available on the subject...

Maybe you should concentrate on that - the discussion will be enriched then...
Last edited by somnath on 01 May 2011 11:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Anindya »

From http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report_m ... ne_1538117

Maoist sleeper cells active in Pune
The arrest of five suspected Maoist sympathisers from Pune district in a span of two days, by the Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) of Pune police has brought to light the presence of Maoists in western Maharashtra.

Angela Sontakke, wife of Milind Teltumde who was arrested at Pirangut last week, was a key member of the golden corridor committee of the Red Brigade. Apparently Angela was given the responsibility to form the western region area committee and was assisted by her comrades, all of whom were young, well educated village women from Pune district.
Last edited by Anindya on 01 May 2011 11:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Anindya »

Maybe Agnivesh was talking about the INC in Mars
Agnivesh is quite a scamp - have seen this guy on TV several times, try and whitewash the involvement of LeT and/or Pakistan.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:
Arjun wrote:Best not to blame Elite Iskool for the inadequacies of some of its alumni !! Not all students may be at the same level of 'eliteness' in reasoning ability as the Iskool might like.
Or was it just flame?
And what did you make of that post? I was trying to tell the poster in that particular case not to focus on the 'elite / non elite' school part. An 'elite' school as long as it is based on academic quality and not money-power, is not something I would deride. I have nothing whatsoever against 'academically elite' schools or their students- and I would only be hypocritical if I were to hold such an opinion. On the other hand - any other comments based on any shortcomings you see in my posts or vice versa - are completely kosher from my perspective.
In any case, I am tired of this juvenile line of discussion - in case you dont havea bee in your bonnet about "elite/non elite", just knock it off from your posts...There is no value being added..
Classic Somnath !! I ask Somnath to knock off the 'elite / non elite' prattle in my earlier post and then he twists this around to sugggest that I should be knocking it off ! Please go back and check who started the juvenile references to 'elite / non elite' in our exchange.
???? Indeed...So opposition to BJP = bootlicker of the INC/Left???
No it does not mean a 'bootlicker of INC' but it does mean that the person in question is NOT a non-partisan party. Only someone with scant knowledge of Indian politics would describe the self-styled 'Swami' as non-partisan.
The point is on the state's CI approach...Substantive critiques take a lot more of "slow reading", of posts, and more importantly of the tremendous amount of literature available on the subject...
So true. So how about you first come up with a 'substantive critique' of Swapan Dasgupta's take rather than dismiss his opinion out-of-hand as partisan ?!

Anyway for the record - I don't think there is any substantial point to be debated out here regarding Salwa Judum. Chattisgarh is learning on the job, as is practically every other state....If you see Ajai Sahni's opinions - he is just as scathing on a state like Maharashtra as he is on Chattisgarh. Chattisgarh may occupy more mind-space because it is the main battleground today - but the states will experiment and figure out the best way to deal with the Maoists. An auxiliary force like Salwa Judum had its uses when the CI tactics initially began - techniques have to be refined going forward. It may have its uses as an auxiliary force - but it cannot be the primary CI plank....from what I know Chattisgarh also understands this well.
somnath
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

Arjun wrote:No it does not mean a 'bootlicker of INC' but it does mean that the person in question is NOT a non-partisan party. Only someone with scant knowledge of Indian politics would describe the self-styled 'Swami' as non-partisan
And who said Agnivesh is a "non partisan" source of CI strategy? His politics is well known, and he isnt an authority on CI - at the same time accusing him of being "INC/Leftist" etc flies in the face of basic facts - its a strawman with no relevance to a discussion on C'garh's CI stance...Ditto for Swapan Dasgupta, he makes a political point, he is neither a CI expert nor an on-the-ground-reporter reporting on events...
Arjun wrote:Chattisgarh is learning on the job, as is practically every other state....If you see Ajai Sahni's opinions - he is just as scathing on a state like Maharashtra as he is on Chattisgarh. Chattisgarh may occupy more mind-space because it is the main battleground today - but the states will experiment and figure out the best way to deal with the Maoists. An auxiliary force like Salwa Judum had its uses when the CI tactics initially began - techniques have to be refined going forward
C'garh has been "learning" for too many years now, without any lessons being seemingly learned..which is the issue in the first place...Of course Ajai Sahni is scathing on everyone barring AP - I mentioned that before to someone imputing (partisan political) motives to him as well..

But C'garh has the biggest problem, and it has handled it in the most ham-handed way...

1. Police capacities have gaping holes - in total capacities as well as in leadership.
2. Salwa Judum has been launched with every single tenet of an auxiliary force deployment violated...
3. Central grants on training left unutilised..

(numerous examples/studies/analyses posted above substantiting the same)...

To "compensate" for all the above, it is pushing forward a vigilante army of Salwa Judum as the centrepiece of its CI strategy, which has only queered the pitch politically and militarily for the Indian state...

To dismiss it as "learning" is almost as fallacious as the earlier comment made about "oh so poor C'garh, cant afford anything more"....
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by saket »

Those who are railing against the Chhattisgarh state govt would to well to remember that : The best psychological boost to the Maoists was provided by the Central govt who sent in untrained CRPF personnel, several dozens of whom were killed in 2009/10 in ambushes - while hardly any of the state trained commandos died.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote:But C'garh has the biggest problem, and it has handled it in the most ham-handed way...

1. Police capacities have gaping holes - in total capacities as well as in leadership.
2. Salwa Judum has been launched with every single tenet of an auxiliary force deployment violated...
3. Central grants on training left unutilised..
Not sure what your primary agenda is - is it to debate on Salwa Judum / SPO concept and how it can be improved on to eliminate Naxalism, or is it to criticize the Chattisgarh government on its CI record. If the latter - I have no interest in participating in what is clearly a political debate...

If the former, my opinion would be that

1. Salwa Judum itself must not be allowed to be fail - that would be disastrous from a PR perspective on the anti-Naxal operations.
2. If required SJ needs to be repositioned to be more in line with Ajai Sahni's recommendations, where it operates as a true auxiliary unit coordinating closely with the state forces and not as a standalone offensive unit.
3. The SPO concept, with all 'best practice' learnings has to be transferred to all states where an insurgency situation exists
4. There can be absolutely no excuse for Naxalism, and Naxalite scum must be eliminated from the country through any means whatsoever
5. To the extent that there are any valid causes for tribal unrest and backwardness (such as lack of land reform) the situation needs to be rectified on a priority basis.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

saket wrote:Those who are railing against the Chhattisgarh state govt would to well to remember that : The best psychological boost to the Maoists was provided by the Central govt who sent in untrained CRPF personnel, several dozens of whom were killed in 2009/10 in ambushes - while hardly any of the state trained commandos died.
Saket-ji, it is the state govt that decides deployment patterns! CPMFs need to work under the overall direction of state police, it is the jurisdictional protocol..

That is precisely part of the problem..As one of the analyses posted above (by Ananth Mathur) show, even grid deployment pattern, something perfected by SFs across Punjab and J&K over the years, have not been achieved by the Cgarh govt...Neither was coordination achieved between CPMF and local police, from the highest to the lowest levels...A few battalions of CPMFs have been pushed through, deaf and blind...

KPS Gill had mentioned in an interview, just after he left his advisor position in the C'garh govt, that senior police officers didnt even travel in official cars, they preferred unmarked ones while travelling even in the major towns and cities!

In such a scenario, without getting the basics right of building up capacities, setting up the basic CI infrastructure and achieving "domination" through regular police, the Salwa Judum has been brought up as the centrepiece!
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by brihaspati »

Arjun ji,
to understand the reaction better, need to look at why "so-called" human rights orgs/spokespersons/neutral-observers/"experts" all converge to a singly outcry - their "bleeding"-heart-rending concern for the "vulnerability" of "tribals" to "naxalite reprisals" only for "salwa judum". Note that this logic should extend to all regions where Naxalites suffer reverses - because they should think also by this logical claim, that the locals must have betrayed them. So wherever, state has succeeded against Naxals, "reprisals" must be targeting the Tribals! So the so-called greater success states should have greater reprisals on Tribals. Therefore, the best way must be never to succeed against Naxals! No, only Salwa Judum attracts Naxalite reprisals because they feel that locals have betrayed them while in all other state-forces cases, they somehow do not feel so. As if those successes happen in the absence of local "intelligence"!

Logically if every "act of violence" that happens on the "tribals" must lead to greater sympathy for Naxals among the Tribals [irrespective of where the violence is sourced from] - is it not beneficial for Naxalites to have more and more of "Salwa Judum"? Because then they can carry out reprisals and win greater sympathy from those on whom they carry out reprisals?

But then why do the self-proclaimed bleeding hearts who never see any human-rights violations from the Naxalite side - Naxlaites who are always simply "resisting" state violence, and repression - and therefore all whose reprisals are justified, suddenly see a problem in "rightful/justified" reprisals from the Naxalite side on Tribals? Especially if it helps in broadening and strengthening so called fight against social-injustice?

No, C'garh is experimenting with a model that may take away the monopoly over violence with which the establishment controls political power. It further shows that the real intent of Maoists is grabbing of rashtryia power, for which they are prepared to kill and destroy the lives of people it pretends to be fighting for. These are the two things that getting these two otherwise squabbling political groupings - now sing in a single chorus. Verappa Moily's comments about legitimacy of "dissent" if based on "social-injustice" grievances or Digvijay Singh's comments on Naxals, should be read in comparison with the various "human rights" groups statements.

As I said, on which side of divisive issue, one takes up a position - shows where the real political motivation comes from. It is well known that overt, suave, professional, urbanite sympathizers of Naxalites are instructed to deny association with Maoists - so that their legitimacy remains intact. But whenever any voice consistently attacks a particular piece of opposition to Maoist tactic, it must indicate that this particular tactic is actually hurting the Maoists. So their moles in "civil" society are activated to create public opinion that may help in creating pressure [or excuses by sympathetic sections within the regime] to withdraw this particular "tactic".

Given the profile of positions that are taken up on various other issues that also detest "Salwa Judum" - it indicates a Centre-Left political affiliation, which masquerades as apolitical or neutral to gain legitimacy. Both components are well-known for their deceptive sliminess on issues.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Nihat »

Bihar cops capture top Maoists
TNA: In a major anti-extremism breakthrough, Bihar's Special Task Force (STF) have captured seven Maoists, including three top guns, Varanasi Subramanian, Bijay Kumar Arya and Pulendu Shekhar who are said to be members of the CPI (Maoist)'s central committee.

It is probably for the first time that three central committee members of the outlawed outfit were nabbed in one police operation, police said and added the central committee members are top functionaries who take policy decisions for the rebel group.
:D
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by suryag »

Maoists might be readying up the next vineel krishna to be kidnapped
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Rudradev »

brihaspati wrote:It is natural to expect that Maoists would concentrate on Dantewada. Maoist attack appears to intensify whenever the regional regime appears to fall out with Congress - even if the regime was perhaps in virtual or real alliance before. Salwa Judum poses a threat to Congress monopoly over rashtryia violence hence it will be targeted with all the resources of the Maoists.
Brihaspati-ji: clearly so!

The fusillade of strawmen and red-herrings being showered on this thread clearly shows that the agenda is in dire need of some serious covering-up. At this point, the thin fiction that Salwa Judum is an inadequate device to combat Maoism has become so overstretched that... well, only rank shamelessness can hold the weave of its figments together!

Not that some can be faulted for failing to try... feeble as their attempts may be. In the social mainstream, dominated as it is by Mainovadi media, the tack has been to impose a "human rights/tribal suffering" spin on the Chhatisgarh counter-insurgency program. Here on Bharat-Rakshak, where readers belong to the national security constituency... the "operational efficiency" of Chhatisgarh’s efforts is the favoured angle adopted by RANDE "civil society" enthusiasts. The agenda is one and the same, however.

Since last time, new red herrings seem to have spawned from the detritus of the old spurious arguments.

1) "The Centre's no-refund grant to states for modernising their police forces to <sic> fight terrorists" was allotted on the basis of existing police strength per state!

Earlier, I had pointed out that
Chhatisgarh (facing "the greatest threat to India's internal security" per MMS) has been allotted a paltry Rs. 42 crore. As compared to Haryana, a state with no significant law-and-order issues, that has been allotted Rs.100 crores! Other states affected by Maoism are getting 223 crores (Maharashtra), 206 crores (Bihar), 180 crores (MP), 113 crores (AP)... but Chhatisgarh must make do with a mere 42 crores according to this allocation of Central funds for "police modernization"!
So the logically unimpeachable, "comprehension-based", "data-driven" justification for this farce? Apparently because Chhatisgarh has fewer cops, therefore it should get less money... never mind the fact that it is facing India's "most dangerous threat to internal security!"

The Elite-Iskool reasoning we are expected to buy here is that a state with fewer cops and a grave terrorist problem needs less money than a state with more cops and a smaller, or non-existent terrorist problem. Brilliant!


2) "Chhatisgarh has received 5k crore in central grants anyway!"

Those who extol this "big favour" being done by the Centre in granting funds to Chhatisgarh (about 7.5% of total Central grants to States in 2011-12 by the way), conveniently fail to mention that what the Mainovadi regime gives with one (GOI) hand, it is busy trying to take away with the other (NGO) hand.

That is exactly what we're seeing with the pressure campaign being brought by Ramchandra Guha, Swami Agnivesh et.al. against the use of central funds by Chhatisgarh to recruit tribals in SPO units, after all. As I've pointed out, these sorts of campaigns have been run by "civil society" groups, using the SC to forward their aims, in the very recent past... and somehow the aims of these "apolitical" agencies always seem to coincide exactly with those of the Mainovadi regime.

3) "Punjab/J&K VDCs were soooo successful only because they were deployed as auxiliary units, after the state police had established control over the districts concerned!"

Not a surprising claim coming from someone whose favoured tactic is to cram facile, irrelevant comparisons together in “nutshells” of sublime ignorance. Or maybe it is deliberate ignorance... while VDCs in Punjab/J&K are being touted as against the “failed/atrocity-committing” Chhatisgarh SPOs, some essential ground-level points of difference between the Punjab/J&K and Chhatisgarh insurgencies are being deliberately papered over.

What are the logistical implications of the dramatic differences in infrastructural development between Chhatisgarh and Punjab? How often was it the case in Punjab that guerillas could establish parallel administrations in regions so remote, that it would take many hours after an attack for any police presence to reach there? Chhatisgarh inherited a defunct administration when it became a state in 2000, and has had to build infrastructure from the ground up. Meanwhile the Maoists were already active and building strength. Today the Maoists are hardly likely to extend Raipur the benefit of time to catch up with Punjab. Comparing this situation to Punjab is laughable!

Comparing it to J&K... a state with significant army presence in addition to central and state security forces, and one in which VDCs of Doda have been supplemented by central paramilitaries using Mi-17s since the mid-1990s... is completely delusional.

This illustrates the difference between learning how to spell "non-sequitur" (an Elite Iskool) and actually knowing what the term means!

Is it reasonable to think that in Chhatisgarh today the State Police could gain operational dominance and control of remote areas of Dantewada, as Punjab police could in Gurdaspur or Jallandhar districts? Clearly not in the short-term.

Is waiting to establish police control over the tribal villages, a luxury that Chhatisgarh has, before it only then thinks about recruiting SPOs from among the tribals?

Is building the necessary infrastructure a luxury that Chhatisgarh has before it thinks about recruiting SPOs from among the tribals?

Certainly these are not luxuries that the tribals have... for them it is a matter of life and death today... not of financial variables in the next n-year-plan.

The only people who would argue in those terms are the ones who have nothing to lose (maybe much to gain?) by the continuance of Naxal domination in the hinterlands of Chhatisgarh. The sort of people who think everything can be resolved by the manipulation of excel spreadsheets, “fiscal space” and “expenditure outlays” while making fraudulent claims on behalf of the “vox pop”!

Here is the actual vox populi of Chhatisgarh, the tribals living in Salwa Judum camps, as articulated to Swapan Dasgupta (some have derided him as an entertaining commentator with no knowledge of the ground situation... but apparently he has been to Bastar and heard the voices of the people, and is capable of dispensing gyaan from domains beyond his rectum.) Here is his eyewitness account of the camps:
The Maoist reign of terror has yielded results. The 50,000 people living in the relief camps have not been forcibly relocated—as Maoist pamphleteers suggest. They are refugees who have fled their villages with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. During a visit to the Dornapal and Kutru camps earlier this month, I was struck by the absence of cattle and livestock. The adivasis said they had left all their possessions in the villages where, presumably, the Maoists had appropriated them. “We are willing to return, but only with protection” was the universal refrain in the camps.
So the RANDE misquoters of the “vox pop” would evidently prefer that these tribals left the camps and went back to their villages, to wait without protection until a Punjab model could be superimposed on Chhatisgarh (utilizing expenditure outlays and fiscal depth over the next n-years!) Whoever the Maoists leave alive by the time Chhatisgarh’s infrastructure is improved to Punjab levels, and by the time state police units establish operational dominance in areas where they currently take several hours to even reach: that handful of fortunates, if they are still able-bodied, can constitute the “VDC”s then!

Besides all this, it’s not as if VDCs in Punjab/J&K have never been accused of involvement with corruption or criminal intimidation. Accusations of this kind, whether justified or not, will always be made. Ideally they will be investigated, and guilty parties if any will be punished... but a Paki would argue that Punjab or J&K VDCs need to be scrapped or disbanded as a solution!

http://punjabnewsline.com/content/speci ... s-chiralla

What is unique in Chhatisgarh’s case is that the Mainovadi “civil society” mafia has selectively amplified allegations of criminalization and corruption related to Chhatisgarh SPOs and Salwa Judum... a simple google search will reveal the extent to which the media has been hijacked to target Chhatisgarh’s counter-insurgency efforts.

Expect an endless series of such hastily-googled hit pieces to spam this thread as the SC-theatre of the pro-Maoist campaign gathers media momentum!

4) “Chhatisgarh’s strategy of raising SPOs is somehow responsible for discord between Central Paramilitary Forces and State Police Forces!”

The discord existed anyway. Institutional hostility, and difficulties in operational compatibility between State and Central police administrations is hardly unique to Chhatisgarh (how long did it take NSG to deploy against the 26/11 attackers in the commercial capital of India, was that a “smoothly run” operation?)

To the extent that SPOs are involved in combating terrorism in Chhatisgarh, Central (that’s right, Central) paramilitary officers actually serving in the region are asking that MORE of these should be recruited because of the extent to which they have benefited CPMF operations!

Interestingly, it seems the Home Ministry is (accordingly) backing the recruitment of more SPOs from among Chhatisgarh tribals—a policy that Chhatisgarh’s raising of the Koya Commandos represents.

No wonder the missionaries, Mainovadis and other Maoist camp-followers have kicked their shrill defamation campaign into high gear. Chappal marks on “Swami” Agnivesh’s face are being trotted out before the Supreme Court to demand that Chhatisgarh be barred from funding SPOs with Central Govt. grants!

http://naxalwatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... ategy.html
New Delhi, Jan. 11: The Centre is honing its anti-Maoist strategy by pumping in additional funds, recruiting new personnel and bringing more rebel-infested areas within its glare.

Sources said the number of special police officials (SPOs) would be increased to 25,500 from 13,500 now. Their salary of Rs 1,500 was also likely to see a substantial increase, the sources added.
SPOs have been a big help to paramilitary forces who have often not been on the best of terms with state police forces. These officials, mostly tribal youths with anti-Naxalite leanings or with a history of being Maoist, have excellent local knowledge that come in handy when security forces conduct operations.

“When we do not have enough policemen like in Chhattisgarh’s Dantewada, we take SPOs, so an increase in their number is a welcome move,” said a CRPF officer.


A senior police officer from Chhattisgarh said Bastar alone needed around 100 battalions of security forces to overcome the Naxalite challenge. At present, the state has about 40,000 personnel aided by about 25,000 paramilitary personnel — far from the one lakh needed in Bastar.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Rudradev »

Arjun wrote: Best not to blame Elite Iskool for the inadequacies of some of its alumni !! Not all students may be at the same level of 'eliteness' in reasoning ability as the Iskool might like.
Arjun-ji:

I have no doubt that many members of BRF have benefited from education at what most of India would consider an elite institution.

However, there is only one poster who consistently feels the need to remind others of the "eliteness" of his own ezoo-kaysun... ostensibly as a means to establish an aura of expertise and knowledgeability, to belittle the comprehensun of other posters with differing points of view, to elevate his own Thaparite idols over scholars with any actual understanding of Indian history. And of course, to validate his consistent peddling of a sometimes overt, sometimes implicit anti-national agenda, closely echoing certain well-known members of "civil society".

This made me wonder if maybe he is not from an Elite Iskool exponentially more "elite" than any of the institutions that ordinary BRF-ites may have studied in... making everyone else "non-elite" by comparison. Hence my use of the term, specifically referring to this one Elite Iskool in a billion :wink:
UBanerjee
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by UBanerjee »

Rudradev wrote:Essentially, the long-standing, organized defamation campaign against Salwa Judum and Chhatisgarh counterinsurgency by the overground anti-nationals can be distilled down to four allegations:

1) “Salwa Judum commits violence!”

Horrors, why can’t they use pure Gandhian measures to fight insurgency, and guarantee that there will be not even one stray incident of corruption/harrassment/rape by their members? Like the Surrendered ULFA in Assam, Ikhwans in J&K, or even police forces everywhere else in India?

The selective manner in which shrill charges of violence, excess, corruption, intimidation and rape (don’t forget the rape!) are volubly applied to parties fighting on the side of the Indian people… while far more excessive atrocities perpetrated by terrorist groups are absolutely ignored… is not unique on the part of those bashing the Salwa Judum.
This is THE signature mark of the left. Moral perfection from one, totally ignore the other. Yapping constantly about this, meant to weigh one down. The Comintern has certainly trained its children well, they are still yapping this many years later!
somnath
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

Its so much easier to throw uncivil/rude invectives (after all, all it takes is a certain amount of deficiency in upbringing!)..

So much more difficult to apreciate a problem and analyse it..Or even look at the analyses of people whose day job is to do these things...

Of course, "oh so poor" C'garh remains a bugbear - never mind the amount of fiscal space available to the state...

Lack of policemen is an issue, but of the someone else, not the state govt!! so the state govt doesnt recruit and train enough policemen, but if the centre's "training grant" is proportionate to the force levels, it is the latter's perfidy!

Opinions of the professionals, Ajai Sahni, EN Rammohan, KPS Gill - maybe all of them are "maino-vadis"..

Of course, only if Salwa Judum is allowed even "freer" hand, if Binayak Sen is kept locked up in jail, if Agnivesh is thrown out of C'garh - the problem will be resolved....

Well, well....For those interested, here is a post-grad thesis paper on the Maoist insurgency by Cmdr Deepak Boyini in the Naval Postgraduate School...

The section on C'garh - especially those relating to overall deficienceis in capacities, and Salwa Judum, tell their own tale...
http://www.hsdl.org/?view&doc=137045&coll=limited
shravan
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by shravan »

Jharkhand: 11 CRPF jawans killed in a Naxal attack in Lohardaga district.
saket
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by saket »

somnath wrote:
saket wrote:Those who are railing against the Chhattisgarh state govt would to well to remember that : The best psychological boost to the Maoists was provided by the Central govt who sent in untrained CRPF personnel, several dozens of whom were killed in 2009/10 in ambushes - while hardly any of the state trained commandos died.
Saket-ji, it is the state govt that decides deployment patterns! CPMFs need to work under the overall direction of state police, it is the jurisdictional protocol..

That is precisely part of the problem..As one of the analyses posted above (by Ananth Mathur) show, even grid deployment pattern, something perfected by SFs across Punjab and J&K over the years, have not been achieved by the Cgarh govt...Neither was coordination achieved between CPMF and local police, from the highest to the lowest levels...A few battalions of CPMFs have been pushed through, deaf and blind...

KPS Gill had mentioned in an interview, just after he left his advisor position in the C'garh govt, that senior police officers didnt even travel in official cars, they preferred unmarked ones while travelling even in the major towns and cities!

In such a scenario, without getting the basics right of building up capacities, setting up the basic CI infrastructure and achieving "domination" through regular police, the Salwa Judum has been brought up as the centrepiece!
Forget the deployment. The CRPF did not even follow standard ground level operational procedures such as not retracing the same path on return etc. The whole of 2009/10 the CRPF were killed in the dozens with the Maoists gloating - "we like the CRPF, its like shooting broiler chicken". Today another 11 CRPF are killed in Jharkhand.
Note that the Chhattisgarh state police commandos hardly suffered this level of casualties.
On Salwa Judum, no one was forced to join it. The tribals themselves wanted arms to protect themselves from the Maoists. What should the govt have done? Post a guard outside every village hut? I see nothing wrong in arming defenceless people who simply want to save themselves from the Maoist maniacs? After a long time the Maoist hegemony in that area was challenged and slowly they will be driven away, a process that will certainly be speeded up if the CRP get their act together.
brihaspati
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by brihaspati »

Well, upbringing in Indic families showed in "real" politeness first, not going in for personal attacks and denigrations when losing out in concrete arguments, and not just pretentious, formal "up pehle" type shenanigans. Arrogance, unsolicited "first assault" style denigration of other's "lack of English comprehension" when it is really about impersonal arguments, frowning on and mocking "rural experiences" as "showing origins" of individuals and how therefore such "experiences" were trash - and never having the strength of character to acknowledge that one was lying, or pretending, or was in error when showed so - shows a basic disjunction from traditional Indic concept of upbringing.

It only shows urbanite, "country bumpkin hating", dhimmified pretentious elite uprbringing, disjoint from the majority of their birth culture and hating or looking down upon them - which develops into a fundamentally slimy character - committed to licking ideologically whichever boots appear to be in power and position to affect continued financial benefits and privileges.

We should note that the personal attack component never goes away, even when we think things have settled and we are back to sane arguments. If we do not agree with whatever is found by googling that supports the particular political line pushed by the poster - immediately, there would be a few expressions of personal attack or denigration inserted within a long harangue terminating with ellipsis every second line - keep things vague and non-commital in the ending, thats the way to go!

This is exactly what I have told many times is the feature of "birth by superiority" mental complexes in certain social sections of certain "forward castes". We find them mostly having settled in Islamic or Mughal or British urban power centres for a couple of generations, typically owning land using their dhimmi connections but staying as absentee landlords licking their master's boots in the cities, and using their "padabi" as a shield to perpetuate a myth of "superior by birth". They develop a hybrid and corrupted language with plenty of expressions and loan-words from the their masters, and behave or act in ways that they think will raise them high in their masters' estimation. Their own megalomania, and disjunction from the majority of their society, makes it impossible for them to identify with the majority and they latch on - psychologically, ideologically, and socially with whoever they see as "stable in power". Their peculiar viciousness in attacking opponents of what they see as their master's position is the extra "loyalty" of the mosahib/chaatukaar. Since Rabindranath is thrown around a lot - there is I think a few lines in a along "babu joto..." in a poem I think titled "Dui Bigha Jomi" about such mosahibs.

This is the social class [I can even recall exactly and uncannily similar attitudes and tactics in a distant relative who happens to be a prominent "Mukherjee" -that made me wonder about how Asutosh or Shyamaprasad turned out so much so as exceptions- and more of the same. I am sure Bangali babus on the forum must have heard the popular scathing couplets about "Chatujyees" and "Mukhujyees" and no such on "Gangulees" or "Banrujyees" :P ] that produces some of the most prominent brains in the "centre-left". Most of the Maoist top-brass have an uncanny predominance from exactly such background, same goes the story for "parliamentary left", and the Congress.

It shows the rootlessness of upbringing, a hotch-potch of slimy opportunism, ideologically, characterwise, and in thinking, that basically covers for an insatiable greed for dominance and power - and nothing more. Top leftists usually react viciously to any criticism or contradiction to what they pontificate on and take it as a personal insult, and are incapable of gving up this secret grudge and nurse it to the end of their lives. This is from first hand experience. Parliamentary Left, or "Jungle" Maoists, or Congress leadership, so-called professionals or experts exactly backing up one or more the above publicly - are all there for personal power, and this is the only thing that matters fro them.

Is is these few "minority" that lend wind to the sails of "Dalit" activism. The way forward is to recognize what they stand for and firmly reject them any space in the future in diciding where the nation needs to go. Whenever we find Congress, Left, Maoists, so-called Human righst activists - coinciding on attacking some method of operation against the Maoists, it means that the method is hurting all their political interests. Without going too much into military professional's "opinions", I would rather not read too much into them where it concerns also assessing the political and social aspects of long term consequences. They give their opinion based on operational characteristics and their training on combat situations. If they were always infallible about tackling domestic uprisings then we have to wipe off a lot of experiecnes like the initial military assessments of Vietnam dished out from the "regular army" viewpoint.
somnath
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

Well, well...Massively OT..But now we have high pontiffs of pop sociology claim great insights into bengali "sub-castes"(??) from alleged "couplets" on "mukherjees and chatterjees" (funny the only specific one I heard in so many years in Calcutta was AMC being defined as Army of Mukherjee and Chatterjees!)!! Funnier still, given that the high pontiff-cum-uber-nationalist needs to "think" that there is a Tagore poem titled "Dui Bigha Jomi"..Even funnier that an attempt is made to quote the poem in context of "moshaheb loyalty" - obviously the high priest of bengali pop sociology has never managed to read the poem - shows the sort of "bengali language roots" they have! Doesnt stop them from "quoting" the poem, but then maybe thats the first Tagore poem that showed up in a google search :wink:

BTW, Isnt it a bit offensive to be dissing specific sub-castes/castes on generic casteist terms?! Never mind, people with "indic values" might have differing perceptions of offensiveness...It would help them to read up on the language whose speakers they pontificate sociological trends though!
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by brihaspati »

"Babu joto bole paarishod dole bole tar shotogun" - what the master says - is actually surpassed a hundred time by the lackeys. Neither English nor even the "favourite poet's" whose songs are supposed to be signs of immense societal overlap between BD (and claiming such hot-air is not after-all pop-sickulogy on the high pontif part!) language seems to be familiar! Another bunch of left-centre boot-licking, "Salwa Judum" hating arrogance at assuming that others do not know the language the arrogant pontiff himself doesn't know very well!
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by VinodTK »

Private copters in rebel fight
ix new MI-17 helicopters would make sorties to rebel hotbeds such as Chhattisgarh’s Abujhmad and Bengal’s Lalgarh by August, ministry sources said. The choppers will be “wet leased”, meaning a private operator will provide the pilots and engineers, besides maintaining the aircraft and spending on fuel.
:
Security officials have made it clear, however, that “air power” in this case does not mean helicopter gun ships but those that are needed to carry troops.
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Aditya_V »

6 civilians killed, 4 hurt as Naxals blow up jeep
Three women, two men and a five-year-old boy were killed in the blast, which left a near six-foot diameter crater on the inter-state state highway No. 7 in Dhanora tehsil. The deceased have been identified as Tarulata Sarkar (70), Pushplata Verma (42), Santosh Verma (45), Aakash Verma (5), Shankari Biswas (30) and driver Rais (28). The injured were Ishika Das (11), Mita Biswas (40), Mrs Rai (45), Manoram Sarkar (28)
The pamphlets mentioned that the Naxals were ready to sacrifice 20-23 civilians in order to kill a single policeman. It could also be a case of call ambush to draw police personnel to the jungles
Which the JNU crowd in a fictional interview with the Tribal will be labeled as Police Atrocity by Chhattisgarh Govt even though this happened in Maharastra.

What bravery from these fellows and As usual the Elite JNU crowd with Cheer that such oppresors of poor have been killed.

My question, I saw anther editorial in TOI that Pak is such a nice Neighbour and evil Yindoos Hawks should not scuttle the peace process.

This ELite Jet flying Media- JNU types have some common trait, be it Pakistan, Kashmir, Ulfa , Maoists any cause which is Anti India is immediately taken up
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by kittoo »

Fergusson College student among 6 young Dalits held for Naxal ‘links’

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fergu ... nks/787133
The Bhosale family may still find it hard to believe that their brightest and most educated member, attending one of the country’s topmost colleges, Pune’s Fergusson College, is accused of being a Naxalite. Siddhartha Bhosale, a Master’s student in Economics, who also took the entrance exams for becoming a Class I government officer, was one of the six alleged Naxalites arrested by the the Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS) near Chandwad in Nashik on April 29.

All the six are Dalits and the five arrested with Bhosale are young Dalit women, three of whom are graduate students. The seniormost is Angelo Sontakke, wife of Naxal leader Milind Teltumbde, who was allegedly behind the February 2009 attack in Gadhchiroli that killed about 15 policemen.

The other four: Sushma Ramteke alias Shraddha Gurav, arrested from Pirangut in Pune; Mayuri Bhagat (23) alias Jenny; Jyothi Chorghe (19) and Anuradha Sonule (23), all arrested from the Shivajinagar area of Pune. Naxal literature, cash, a laptop, cellphones and other items were seized from the suspects.

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Bhagat, a native of Chandrapur, is a graduate in Arts who shifted to Mundwa in Pune to work with Sontakke. Chorghe and Sonule, also Arts graduates, stayed in a small room in Bhosari and allegedly worked as couriers for the group’s activity.

Bhosale, from Ahmednagar, lives in a small, rented house in Bhagyoday Nagar, Kondhwa, in Pune. Police said he was trained in Gadhchiroli by top Naxal operatives and was assigned the task of recruiting youngsters from Pune and Nashik into the Maoist fold. Bhosale’s arrest and his brief, police said, has underlined their suspicion that the Maoists are targeting colleges and institutions in urban areas to recruit young cadres from Dalit or backward classes.
This reminds me of an incident. Now that I recall it, dots are easy to connect. As much as its hard to believe, Maoists even have reach in institutes like IIT Bombay! In my first year there, I distinctly remember people coming and contacting SC/ST students, from some dalit welfare organization whose name I dont remember, and instigating them by telling fabricated stories and telling other hateful things. I distinctly remember one of their statements- 'Dushman din raat hamein maarne ki taiyyari main hai tumhe pata nahi hai (the enemy is preparing day & night to kill us and you dont know)', referring to the upper castes. While all of them were laughed at by SC/ST students, I don't think its impossible that they get successful in recruiting some of those. They also had a white foreigner research student or journalist with them who also claimed that she had seen atrocities on dalits that she couldnt even speak of and that she would be really grateful if the students could tell her the 'true stories' etc.
Oh, and not to mention, it seems conversion to Christianity is done soon too, once they join.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

We have our "famous" alum, Magsaysay winner, "returned to India after phd at umcp", Balaji Sampath of AID India doing all that you mentioned:
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2005/ ... th-at.html
Kailash
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Kailash »

Sushupti
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Sushupti »

Government calls Binayak Sen to draw health plan

Months after he was charged with sedition and aiding Maoists, Dr Binayak Sen is among eminent health sector experts called in to draw up India’s health policy for the 12th Plan (2012-17). Sen, a rights activist and a pediatrician working with tribal in Chhattisgarh, will be on the Planning Commission’s steering committee on health.

"I’m delighted to hear the news, though I have no intimation of such a development,” Sen told HT over the phone when reached for comments on Tuesday. Sen said he would take a call on joining the panel after consulting his colleagues.

The committee’s brief includes review of national health situation and policy and and exploring possibility of adopting a right to health approach — advocated by Sen in a recent issue of Lancet.
"I do not think it is recognition of my work but a reminder of the work that needs to be done,” he said.

Sen’s nomination to the country’s highest planning body, which works under the Prime Minister, comes just weeks after the Supreme Court granted him bail in a sedition case.

Sen works closely with the Jan Swasthya Sahayog, the Indian unit of Peoples’ Health Support Group worldwide.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Governmen ... 95985.aspx
sum
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by sum »

Raman Singh: why appoint Binayak to Planning Commission panel?
Even as the Planning Commission stood by its decision to nominate Binayak Sen to its steering committee on health, there is a loud note of disapproval from Chhattisgarh Chief Minister Raman Singh, who has questioned the rationale behind the appointment, saying the rights activist is still facing trial.

“The people of Chhattisgarh do not approve of the appointment,” he said. “He has not been absolved of the charges by the court but just given bail,” Dr. Singh told journalists here.

(The Supreme Court recently granted bail to Dr. Sen, who was sentenced to life imprisonment by a Chhattisgarh trial court on charges of sedition.)

Pointing out that for such appointments a proper procedure was followed including scrutiny of antecedents, Dr Singh said: “Is there such a dearth of experts in the country that the Centre had to take the advice of a person accused of sedition?”

On the other hand, Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed, who also chairs the steering committee on health, told The Hindu here on Wednesday: “The issues that we would tackle in the 12th Five-Year Plan are extremely important — including children's health in tribal areas. Since Dr. Sen has worked with the poorest of the poor, his contribution would be useful.”
Interesting that a man just on bail for sedition charges ( not yet proven innocent) can get into committees reporting to the PMO. Wonder if this adjustment would have been made for anyone other than Dr.Sen?
Anindya
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Anindya »

Interesting that a man just on bail for sedition charges ( not yet proven innocent) can get into committees reporting to the PMO. Wonder if this adjustment would have been made for anyone other than Dr.Sen?
Wonder if the evidence against Sadhvi Pragya is stronger than that against Binayak Sen?
ramdas
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by ramdas »

Kittoo and Stan,

What you said about IIT Bombay is also true abt. IIT Madras: in the case of IIT Madras,many SC/ST students are already converted and fall into an "organization" easily. This "organization" is a proselytizing one. It is different from AID, which is a commie subversive organization. I remember an AID organized film show on NBA. During the "question and answer" session, when a student asked how he can help, a lady on the stage replied something along the lines of "join IAS and help peoples movements like ....NBA....naxalites..." (I dont remember precisely: it was some time between 1998 and 2000..but certainly, there was a call to support people's movements in the answer and among many other people's movements, the naxalites were mentioned.)

These issues should be looked into by those handling national security....
Virupaksha
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Virupaksha »

So Sonia and MMS have become brazen enough to support the reds directly.

Just goes to how incorruptible MMS is to the cause of congress, even if it destroys India.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/naxal ... to/609303/

Jai Ho, MMS. I salute to thee, an incorruptible person standing between India and its security.
somnath
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by somnath »

Anindya wrote:Wonder if the evidence against Sadhvi Pragya is stronger than that against Binayak Sen?
Possible (we dont know)...But even as someone who is convinced that the conviction by the sessions court was on amazingly flimsy grounds (something that SC has said in as many words), the optics of this isnt right...We cant have a convicted person (even if the sentence has been suspended - there is no bail, unlike what Raman Singh says) getting govt retainerships...Stretched, what moral-legal right do we have to demand that "criminals" are barred from contesting elections then?
ramdas wrote:What you said about IIT Bombay is also true abt. IIT Madras: in the case of IIT Madras,many SC/ST students are already converted and fall into an "organization" easily
I wouldnt overamplify the impact of these things...There are many such outfits in most unis...As a famous academic/economist (someone on the absolute right of the ideological chain) once told me - "if you are not a communist before you are 25, you dont have a heart, if you remain a communist after you are 25, you dont have a head" :)

Many of us have indulged in various forms of indiscretions in hostel/unis - very few of us graduate to anything more sinister...
vera_k
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by vera_k »

Most charitable explanation I have is that a Planning Commision sinecure is one way to exile Dr. Sen from Chattisgarh without much fuss. If he is in Delhi attending go-nowhere meetings, he can't be in Chattisgarh doing what he is accused of.
Virupaksha
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Virupaksha »

vera_k wrote:Most charitable explanation I have is that a Planning Commision sinecure is one way to exile Dr. Sen from Chattisgarh without much fuss. If he is in Delhi attending go-nowhere meetings, he can't be in Chattisgarh doing what he is accused of.
Sirjee,

Even congress spokesperson will onlee laugh at this. Let the congress spokesperson/ govt put out those kind of jacka$$ excuses.

Let us not bring BRf to the level of Rahul Gandhi's guru, Diggy Raja.

Lets call what it is.
sum
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by sum »

vera_k wrote:Most charitable explanation I have is that a Planning Commision sinecure is one way to exile Dr. Sen from Chattisgarh without much fuss. If he is in Delhi attending go-nowhere meetings, he can't be in Chattisgarh doing what he is accused of.
Shouldn't all Naxals and Dawood/Hafiz Sayeed/Kasab etc then be part of GoI empowered panels since atleast that would keep them busy from their main job? :-? :-?

Is this the Indian equivalent of "Lahori logic"?
sum
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by sum »

From prisoner of Maoists to Ramesh’s personal secretary
Ramesh’s offer has come at a time when Krishna’s family is believed to be keen on him moving out of the state, as a section of the Orissa bureaucracy has reportedly started a whisper campaign, suggesting he was a Maoist sympathiser.
Orissa’s special secretary UN Behera, in charge of the general administration department, said Krishna had not applied for transfer.
Hmmm......
Raghavendra
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by Raghavendra »

^congress ka haath, maoist ke saath
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Re: The Red Menace

Post by abhishek_sharma »

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