Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Non-Western Worldview

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5019
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby RoyG » 21 Jul 2014 20:38

JE Menon wrote:A Western view on a non-Worldview through an anti-atheism prism... Interesting, and there are several parts. I think the guy has genuinely tried to understand...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 4B982F280B

I don't think this has been posted here before.


I agree. He is maturing from the hellenism vs hebraism debate.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8988
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Jul 2014 05:41

One part of a "Non-Western WorldView" is to have SOME WorldView, or at least some understanding of one's own RECENT history.

These *(&^%*&^ clearly do not believe in that. This makes me sooooo mad I feel like taking an Encylopedia Brittanica and shoving all the volumes up the musharrafs of these &*^S(!!

It has been 14 years since Pakistani intruders were driven out of Tiger Hill and Captain Vikram Batra,Captain Manoj Pandey,Captain Sourabh Kalia besides numerous unsung heroes became irreplaceable names in the history of contemporary India. And while the Army’s bravehearts rewrote history with their blood,the education system does not find it significant to include their mention in history books for basic introduction to young Indian minds.

The Maharashtra state board has no mention of Kargil in social science books till standard ten.

The case is no different with languages books,where no stories about their bravery is featured. Instead,the social science book of the state board focuses on history,the latest event to be touched being Goa liberation. According to N K Jarag,head,State Council of Educational Research and Training (SCERT) that designs content of the textbooks,”Children between standard one to eight do not have the understanding (to grasp facets of Kargil).” Jarag agrees Kargil/ Kargil heroes deserve a mention in textbooks for standard nine and 10.

SCERT follows NCERT guidelines. A quick look at some guidelines which aim at enabling “students to be familiar with some key political events and figures in the post-independence period,events and processes of recent history,to take a historical perspective of making sense of contemporary India” makes one wonder why none of India’s post independence conflicts,including Kargil,feature in the textbooks.

While this is the case with the state board,the CBSE class 12 political science book has a passing mention of the Kargil conflict (Box- 1).

This,when earlier editions of the syllabus included a rather elaborate account of Kargil (Box- 2). Even in Sainik Schools in the city/ state,Kargil is covered only in military training through individual initiatives.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby brihaspati » 25 Jul 2014 06:34

UlanBatori wrote:
Photo: A girl being fed bananas in a human zoo,Brussels World’s Fair, Belgium, 1958


And my problem with desis admiring the Huntington "Clash of Civilizations" KKK line is that no one sets up a "zoo" without a lot of different varieties of the species. So think carefully: what who else was in this "Human Zoo" that drew such crowds of Civilized Westerners? Even in 1958?


Would be interested to know if you know of Indians being put up as exhibits. Also what is exactly the "problem" you have in mind between desis admiring Huntington's political "clash" and the "zoo"?

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2231
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Rony » 31 Jul 2014 06:16

Koenraad Elst on India as a Civilizational State.

Civilizational Truths About India

The notion of an over-arching unity of heritage and long-term continuity may be obvious in China, and get applause there, but in India it is considered ‘communal'. Here, the whole is not real or even worthwhile; the fragments are

India’s biggest neighbour is re-thinking its own identity. In this context, Zhang Weiwei’s path-breaking book, The China Wave: Rise of a Civilizational State (World Century, Shanghai 2011), deserves to be discussed in detail and with respect to its China-centric purpose: To give China’s remarkable progress an ideological consistency and justification. Its Indian equivalent is yet to be written. However, here we would like to focus on Mr Zhang’s central concept of the ‘civilisation-state’. Though the states to which it can be applied are hardly numerous, it has universal validity.

China used to be a civilisation, culturally relatively united, especially by the elite medium of the written language, transcending the dialect borders; and politically also mostly united, first in a feudal network under Shang and later Zhou overlordship, then in a bureaucratic-centralistic empire since the unification under Qin Shihuang in 221 BCE. ‘Politically united’ is also relative, in the sense that an ancient emperor, no matter how autocratic, was much less present in his subjects’ daily lives than any modern regime, no matter how democratic. The Chinese people say: “Heaven is high and the emperor far away”.

It is the growth of the nation-state that changed the rules of the game. In the 19th century, the country with the highest Gross National Product and by far the largest population in the world was no party for the military aggression by the British (Opium War) and the modernised Japanese. In the 20th century, China was forged into a nation-state by the Republic (1911-49) and the People’s Republic (1949); but it was an unusual one, because its domain practically coincided with the millennial Chinese civilisation. At first, China as a civilisation found itself unequipped for the modern world, and was humiliated. But now it has adapted itself and come into its own; and look at the result. In the process, it has transformed itself into the world’s only civilisation-state.

The only one? Perhaps not. The European Union has the civilisation-state as its distant goal, uniting the ‘provinces’ of European civilisation, but it has never experienced this unity in the past. Easily the most credible contender, however, is India. Indeed, the country’s self-understanding does imply a similar claim as China’s.


Mr Zhang argues specifically that India has always lacked political unity, which China has usually had. He has picked up the usual ‘secularist’ misconception that India was only cobbled together by Queen Victoria. In fact, the ideal of political unification existed already in ancient times, and came fairly close to realisation in the Maurya, Gupta, Mughal and Maratha empires. More importantly, even in a condition of political fragmentation, India showed a remarkable civilisational unity. That makes modern India a civilisation-state par excellence: It is a state that unites regions with little politics but much civilisation in common.

Mr Zhang also argues that China alone has a civilisational continuity stretching back 5,000 years. In India, by contrast, you can frequently hear China enumerated among the areas that have lost their civilisational continuity because of foreign interference. Europe and America lost their souls to Christianity, Egypt and Babylon lost theirs to Islam, and likewise, China has seen a thorough overhaul of its way of life under Mao Zedong. Only India enjoys civilisational continuity since at least the Harappan period.

However, Mr Zhang argues that Maoism, though brutal and paying lip-service to the Western ideology of Marxism, was but a short intermezzo, without profound civilisational effect, and in some ways even beneficial. Thus, there was no foreign domination (as parts of India suffered from Caliphate Viceroy Mohammed bin Qasim in 712 to British Viceroy Mountbatten in 1947), and once the suppressed Chinese religion revived from the 1980s onwards, it turned out not to have suffered seriously from an erasure of its traditions, which largely survived even the excesses of the Cultural Revolution by lying low. Around 1970, there was an all out campaign to blacken the nation’s most prominent sage, Confucius, but today the People’s Republic is founding Confucius Institutes everywhere. So, in spite of some dramatic events, China does boast of a civilisational continuity.

Indians should not begrudge the Chinese their continuous civilisation. But they should muster the ambition to make the same claim, and outline a similar agenda for themselves. They have suffered far longer, and sometimes worse, oppression by hostile forces than the Chinese under the Cultural Revolution, and incurred serious losses in terms of lives, territory and self-esteem, yet they have survived. So here they are, reclaiming what is theirs after centuries of foreign rule and over a half-century of depreciation by the ‘secularist’ elite, Indian in blood but hostile to India in spirit.

Why should a civilisation incarnate itself in a common state? After all, it has held out for millennia even when being politically fragmented. But today, the state is far more important than at any time in the past. It can provide security to its constituent regions when these are attacked precisely because of their civilisational identity.

To be sure, the usual suspects are bound to oppose this civilisational viewpoint. With their studied superficiality, the secularists view India as a hodge-podge of ‘communities’, of which a very recent one, concocted by the ‘Orientalists’, is Hinduism. Just as I finish this article, my attention is drawn to a French magazine celebrating the appointment of an Indian secularist historian to the Collège de France with an interview. There, he speaks out against the very notion of a Hindu civilisation. The whole is not real, only the fragments are. The notion of an over-arching civilisational unity and long-term continuity may be obvious in China, and get applause there, but in India it is ‘communal’!

Finally, we should add that the concept of civilisation-state has the merit of being more true to India’s real status than the concept of ‘nationalism’. In the days of the Freedom Movement, it made sense to be a nationalist for it meant not being loyal to foreign rulers. Heirs of that period, such as the Congress and the RSS family, still go on swearing by this concept. But now it is time for a more nuanced and precise understanding of what India is. Nationalism with its connotation of homogenisation cannot do justice to India’s profound pluralism and respect for differences. Depending on how you define ‘nation’, India has known several divisions into what would be rated as ‘nation’ elsewhere. Of course we can fuss over definitions and maintain that even complex and pluriform India is still a nation-state somehow. But it is more economical and more credible to dispense with this terminology altogether and call India a civilization-state.

China has one big and four small stars in its flag to signify that its major nation and a number of minor nations are united in a single state. India has the 24-spoked wheel of the chakravarti or universal ruler in its flag, meaning that within his empire, every tribute-paying vassal state had its own autonomy and traditions. In modern and more egalitarian terms: The Indian federation unites many communities into a single civilization-state.


On the Chinese myth that they alone were always united unlike India and China alone should be qualified as civilizational state and not India, my comments from earlier discussions

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3887&start=880#p1465835
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6283&p=1238927&hilit=rony#p1238916

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2231
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Rony » 01 Aug 2015 19:57


johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby johneeG » 01 Aug 2015 21:00

Rony wrote:On the Chinese myth that they alone were always united unlike India and China alone should be qualified as civilizational state and not India, my comments from earlier discussions

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1465835
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... y#p1238916


This chinese claim just shows that western historians(particularly colonial historians) have distorted Bhaarath's history severely. Thats why the need for this thread: Towards a new History of India

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18866
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Philip » 03 Aug 2015 18:50

Hiroshima,70 years on.Does anyone remember it?

It is shocking that the 70th anniversary of the Hiroshima N-bomb attack,the most horrific war crime in human history has been completely ignored by the US/West,which with great fanfare celebrated the anniversary of the fall of Germany not too long ago and last year the centenary of WWI.

All the bullcrap about WMDs,Saddam's non-existant ones justifying the invasion of Iraq,Afghanistan,Libya, et al, (bringing about the destruction of Iraq,the cradle of civilisation and the catastrophe that has engulfed the Middle East) was given pride of place by the western media for the last two decades. But the greatest crime in human history,the dropping of not one but two atomic bombs on Japan has been whitewashed by the US and its Western allies.

This is what the western media wants Japan to be.A servile nation and race of pacisfists,while the US and its Western alkies can wage war anywhere on the planet as if it is its divine right.


Survivors of the Nagasaki atomic bomb attack: Japan must not abandon its post-war pacifism
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 31717.html

Major Sweeney, an Irish-American catholic who had also flown in Enola Gay, the US aircraft which bombed Hiroshima, never publicly expressed regret. “There’s no question in my mind that President Truman made the right decision,” he later said.

Yet, a few years later, the US and British air forces became the “apostles of strategic bombing” and perfected the techniques of urban destruction, fuelled by an annihilationist policy against Japan that culminated in the incineration of most its cities and the death of over 400,000 civilians. A poll in late 1945 found over 22 per cent of Americans wished more atomic bombs had been dropped on Japan.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 01:02

Two X-posts from GDF...

SriJoy wrote:
Primus wrote:


This is a false and unsupported narrative.
'India remained behind the times' ? What times ? we have 2500 years of recorded history in India and i can say with certainty, India was not behind the times in most of that period.

Yes, India was 'behind the times' when colonial Europeans came. Who wasn't ? But that was post 1700s AD.
Yes, India was 'behind the times' in early 1500s, when North India had no concept of cannons and that is the sole reason for Babur's victory and Mughal establishment in India : cannons.

One can argue that India was 'behind the times' in the 700s-1200s AD because we did not have heavy cavalry. But that isn't a technological or advancement problem, that is a climatological problem: Indian subcontinent is not favourable climate for horses and as such, our horses don't get as big as the European horses or as hardy as the Arab/Mongol horses. This is substantiated by records from Delhi Sultans (Khiljis and later Mughals), who clearly state that for every 5 horses imported into India from Balkh, 4 don't make it past 2 years.

Throughout ancient and medieval era, we were the apex of the metallurgical development. Or swords, arrowheads, spear-points- they are some of the best in the world in terms of hardness and carrying an edge, all the way from 500s BC Magadh-Kalinga catches, through to medieval period.

The patterns in Indian history is clear :

1. North India based empires have very rarely been able to exert control over the deccan (only the Mauryas and Guptas were able to. Delhi Sultan/Mughals were either raiders into the Deccan or did not exert effective control over much of the Deccan) and Deccan empires raided/won battles but were unable to control in the north (only Rashtrakutas and Cholas achieved this).

2. North India has been invaded by foreigners successfully 8 times in pre-colonial days. Chronologically, they are : The Greeks & Sakas ( 180 BC-50 BC), Kushans (0 AD), White Huns ( 520 AD), Arab Caliphates ( 700-800 AD), Mahmoud of Ghazni ( 950s AD), Muhammad of Ghor ( 1191 AD), Timur (1400s AD) and Babur (1530s AD).
All but one instance came when North India either was in political chaos from falling empire ( Greeks & Sakas) or had no empire ( Kushan, Caliphates, Ghazni, Ghor, Babur). Only one instance of successful invasion came from outside against an Indian empire : Huns vs the Guptas. Timur vs Delhi Sultanate comes close, but as records of Tughlaq dynasty shows, they had very little effective control outside of the Delhi-Brajbhoomi-Punjab region and all their finances & recruitment for war came from just that region. So even though technically they are an empire, in reality, they were a large-ish kingdom.


The reason for #1 and #2 are all terrain/climatological constraints:

Deccan has numerous choke-points and thus, troop number is irrelevant, battlefield is the great equalizer of numbers. This is the reason why Arab chronicles admit that the Rashtrakutas/Chalukyas had the best infantry in India : when your land is full of chokepoints, you are better off developing world class infantry and using your infantry to fight at these choke points. This is the same reason why Greeks and the Romans had the best overall infantry in the ancient world - their land is full of these chokepoints and their military doctrine developed fully cognizant of this. There is nothing a cavalry can accomplish in the narrow chokepoints of Italy, Greece or Gujarat-Maharashtra coast, versus an infantry.
Thus, North Indian empires struggled fruitlessly to control the Deccan.

In the North, the curiosity of 'outside invasions only succeeding when there are no empires' is easily explained by two salient features :
a) India is poor in horses and did not boast a cavalry contingent that could match the Iranians/Central Asians
b) India is the first place to domesticate elephants and churn out war elephants in their thousands.

Point a) means, Indians mostly were at a disadvantage against invading central Asians if they didnt have point b) in their favour. But point b) has a catch : elephants are freaking expensive. Each elephant will use 200 litres of water and eat half a tonne of foliage per day. This means, without the financial strength of an empire, India cannot field thousands of elephants easily. This is why, when the Greeks fight Porus, he has 100-200 war elephants, when Timur shows up, he is faced with 200 war elephants, etc: Small fragmented kingdoms/city-states cannot afford an army of 5000+ war elephants and without those numbers, elephants become a battlefield curiosity and an irritant, not a decisive, war-winning option. Not unless you expect each and every elephant-rider to kill 200 men on their own.



and

SriJoy wrote:
arshyam wrote:@SriJoy, just wanted to add a point about the Alexander discussion - you had said he wouldn't go forward with a victorious enemy behind him. But consider this: after Paurava, was he really going "forward"?

Forward and backward are relative terms that have meaning only when the origin and destination are know. Based on what I know, Alexander was going to conquer the world, which the Greeks then thought ended after India. So keeping this in mind, his destination was the Indian heartland, and "forward" would be going beyond Paurava's kingdom into India proper. But he didn't do that, did he? After the war with Paurava, he goes south, or sideways if you will. One goes sideways only when there is an obstacle preventing one from going forward (so go around it), or if one gives up and wants to go back. For some reason, he didn't want to go back in the same way, so chose the southward route. Given this, does it really matter that much if he leaves a victorious enemy behind him or not? For all we know, he may not have had a choice.

It sounds like a belaboured point, but given the importance attached to his purported "forward" movement, thought I'd mention this to see if anyone else thinks likewise and perhaps express it better.

I am contesting this Alexander story this much only because a) there are zero sources even mentioning Alexander fighting on Indian soil, let alone corroborating the Greek accounts, and b) his behaviour after Paurava is strange and out of character, to say the least. Something does not add up in this whole story.


1. Actually, 'Alexander wanted to conquer the world' is a myth propagated by Alexander Romance. Ie, the mythic, heroic literature that spring sup in the 400 year period after Alexander. Alexader's stated goal was the conquest of the Persian empire. From what we know, he never openly or officially changed this goal.

2. By leaving an enemy behind his communication line, i mean precisely that: his enemy is 'between himself and his base'. During Alexander's time, the Greeks don't display any knowledge of the Bolan pass. They came in via the Khyber, received submission from Ambhi at Takshashila, attacked Porus on Jhelum and then pressed into lower Indus. If Porus wasn't defeated, it'd mean there is Porus between Alexander (for e.g. when Alex was in Multan) and his ally, Ambhi, who 'protected' the route home via Khyber. What happened after, is after the fact. My contention is simple- I do not accept that Alexander lost to Porus or that Porus didn't submit. Because then Alexander moving into Multan would leave Porus between himself and his communication line. This is unparalleled in history and forget great generals like Alexander, not even crap generals are stupid enough to leave a victorious enemy between themselves and their base. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and therefore, the claim that Alexander lost/Porus won is unsupportable.

3. His 'obstacle' going forward was Magadha. Not Porus. We find, in Buddhist/Jain/Puranic chronicles that Mahapadma Nanda had established himself as 'Ekachatra', meaning true emperor and 'uprooted all the Kshatriyas that were vassals to the prior kings'. Now, from Ajatshatru's time to Kakavarna Kalasoka (who was the ruler before Mahapadma Nanda most likely), kings as far away as Kuru and Avanti had paid tribute to Magadh. Meaning, Mahapadma Nanda had direct control over Kuru & Avanti and all that lay east of it. Now, Kuru is widely accepted as Haryana, Avanti is basically ancient Malwa. Since Alexander proceeds to Beas river as his furthest eastern extent, it is clear that his path is blocked by Magadh.
This, the Greeks readily admit.

4. There are Greek sources that decisively, in detail, put Alexander in western India (i.e., Pakistan). Why do we need another source for this ?? That Indian sources did not record it, is inconsequential. Objectively speaking, the Greeks are excellent historians- they definitely show a higher quality of historical accuracy than most Indian sources, giving a detailed, linear account replete with battle plans. They also show that they are not averse to recording their own losses. Its not like Greek sources talk only of Thermopylae or Marathon, they also talk about the wars where Persians kicked their butt. So why do we need to challenge the account of the Greeks ?

5. I already explained why his behaviour to Porus isn't that extraordinary. Plenty of kings have rebelled against their overlord Emperors/kings, fought battle, were defeated and re-instated as vassals. This is especially common when the rebellion isn't against the same king (Porus, Ambhi, etc didnt rebel against Alexander- their presence and establishment shows that they were, at the very least, vassals of Darius III and didn't just snatch power the moment Darius III died). So there is plenty of historical precedence for re-instating Porus as a vassal king.
The behaviour of Alexander makes sense, especially when considering the geo-politics of NW India at that time. Porus's kingdom is the 'buffer state' between Alexander himself and the mighty Magadha. What would Alexander accomplish, by putting a king in charge of Porus's kingdom who couldn't pacify the Jhelum area, except serve as an open invitation to Magadh to annex it ??
As it turned out, this was a genuine threat, since within 10 years of Alexander's victory against Porus, the trans-Indus region passed under Magadh anyways (I refuse to partition Magadh into its various dynasties. Haryanyaka, Sisunaga, Nanda, Maurya, Sunga and Kanva were all dynasties of Magadh, the polity was Magadh).



and a map of the area of interest:

Image


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ro ... _200bc.jpg

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 01:27

It worked for me. But some browser don't allow images to be displayed. Will edit the link.

BTW we had this thread for over 7 years and you will fin da lot of interesting ideas.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 02:47

SriJoy wrote:I don't know if it is a 'western or non-western' worldview, but we, as Indians, need to address our greatest empire ever in its proper terms : MAGADH EMPIRE.
Why do we insist on dividing Magadh into its dynasties, as if the dynasties coming into power all came from somewhere else, got rid of all the people in Magadh and repopulated it ?

We call it the 'Roman Empire'. Because it was based on Rome and Roman ideals came to dominate the empire. Not 'Julian Empire/Claudian Empire/Neveran empire'.

So why do we do this with Magadh ?

Approximately 550 BC is when Bimbisara annexed Anga and started the 'imperial phase' of Magadh empire. His dynasty was the Haryanaka Dynasty.
This was followed by Sisunaga dynasty, Nanda dynasty, Maurya dynasty, Sunga dynasty and finally, the Kanva dynasty.
Around 30 BC is when the Kanva power is finally ended by the Satavahanas, which brought the glorious 500 year Magadh empire to an end.

We should remember Magadh for what it was - the 'Rome' of India, the political centre of gravity powerful enough to've scared way Alexander, the ground zero of Buddhism, Jainism and ajivika.



Its called regnal periodicity.
Would you write an article on this with maps and dynasty periods for a magazine like Swarajya?

This will kick off a storm in the historian world.
And then add some comparable Satavahana ~450 years,
Western Chalukyas Of Kalyani and Badami
Eastern Chalukyas- Chola which was ~700 years.
So India did have long period dynasties.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 03:19

Done. How does 3 months sound?
Give periodic updates on progress.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 03:32

Will send you email with my address. But by Friday.

Pathik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 16 Aug 2016 05:22

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Pathik » 04 May 2017 07:15

Lilo wrote:Image

Photo: A girl being fed bananas in a human zoo,Brussels World’s Fair, Belgium, 1958


Expo 58, also known as the Brussels World’s Fair October 1958. It was the first major World's Fair after World War II.


That is one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen in my life. Dont even want to look at the faces of people in that pic. No matter how numb we become to the barbarism of islam and the west they dont fail to shock us every new day. The girl in that pic is a real human being. No wonder such facts are never shown to the world by the elites. :(

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3598
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 May 2017 08:55

Human zoos have been common in the US and Europe but I doubt very much one in existence in 1958. Any confirmation would be useful in my facts and arguments mode.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby SwamyG » 04 May 2017 22:46

Thanks to Ramana for this references, this is a good non-Western WorldView on looking at cinema especially Bahubali.

http://indiafacts.org/sensible-cinema-natyashastra/

manju
BRFite
Posts: 640
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: CA, USA

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby manju » 05 May 2017 19:34

This is perhaps OT here

Just watched bahubali-2. Epic movie!!

Original (Indian themes) with no copycat isms. If this trend in movie making continues then movie industry will play a major role in decolonized Indian minds.

- I said this first... here!!!

Now I know why the pseudoseculars are pissed off...

It wail have the same effect of Ramayana and Mahabharata serials

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Lilo » 05 May 2017 22:46

sanjaykumar wrote:Human zoos have been common in the US and Europe but I doubt very much one in existence in 1958. Any confirmation would be useful in my facts and arguments mode.


.....These ethnographic displays died out after World War II. Oddly it was Hitler who first banned them. The last was in Belgium in 1958.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16295827

Yayavar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4761
Joined: 06 Jun 2008 10:55

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Yayavar » 05 May 2017 22:49

manju wrote:This is perhaps OT here

Just watched bahubali-2. Epic movie!!

Original (Indian themes) with no copycat isms. If this trend in movie making continues then movie industry will play a major role in decolonized Indian minds.

- I said this first... here!!!

Now I know why the pseudoseculars are pissed off...

It wail have the same effect of Ramayana and Mahabharata serials


Is Chandamama still popular? Bahubali is like the Chandamama stories. If so, then the Indic story core has never vanished just was not exercised on the big screen.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3598
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sanjaykumar » 06 May 2017 08:03

^^ Thanks.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 04 Oct 2017 23:46

Significant critique of World History handed to us by Church historians

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... story.html


Debunking myths about history

Wednesday, 04 October 2017 | CK Raju | in Oped


Debunking myths about history

Western history was written exclusively by Christian priests, who wanted to convert the entire world to Christianity. A sustained debate is needed to expose the lack of evidence for churchified history


One often hears about the saffronisataion of history but never about its churchification. However, for some 1,500 years, Western history was written exclusively by Christian priests. Their stated goal was to convert the whole world to Christianity. Did they speak about the unbiased truth of history? Hardly.

The first church historian, Eusebius, extravagantly glorified the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great, who enabled the church to marry the state — a marriage which swelled the coffers of the church. To enforce a profitable monopoly, the Christians waged a war against the surviving ‘pagans’; they burnt down the Great Library of Alexandria. The next church historian, Orosius, wrote during this religious war. The very title of his book, History Against the Pagans, shows it was a war propaganda. He constantly belittled and denigrated ‘pagans’.


This became the model of future church history, glorifying itself and denigrating all ‘others’. With the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate, Constantinople (Istanbul) became a tributary of Baghdad, which invested heavily in knowledge, gathering it from all parts of the world, especially India and China. The Baghdad Bayt-al-Hikma seeded a culture of books, and huge libraries sprouted across the Islamic world from Timbuctoo to Tashkent.

Many of these Arabic books were translated into Byzantine Greek, in Istanbul. The translators (all priests of the Greek church) injected their chauvinism into the translated texts, planting stray remarks, attributing authorship to Greek names, real or imaginary. Few people are aware that unlike the Rhind papyrus, or Iraqi clay tablets, there are no original Greek sources for the purported achievements of Euclid, Archimedes, Claudius Ptolemy, etc.

Unlike also the Indian case, there is no continuous chain of intermediate commentaries which reproduce the original in full. The ‘evidence’ for claims of Greek scientific achievements comes from stray remarks in discontinuous and late Byzantine Greek texts from over a thousand years after the purported event. In fact, we do not actually have even those ‘early’ Byzantine Greek sources (which are only a thousand years late) but only purported copies and translations of them from several centuries later.

This method of falsifying history by attributing all early knowledge to Greeks turned virulent during the Crusades. Militarily the Crusades (after the first) were failures. A key reason for this failure, as reported by Christian spies like Adelard of Bath, was that the Christians were deficient in knowledge compared to Muslims. Hence, the church now sought knowledge from Muslims. An opportunity arose when Toledo fell, and its huge library of Arabic books came under Christian control. But the church dithered. Why?

The earlier church policy was to burn non-Christian books as heretical. But now it wanted to learn from the books of the religious enemy. That too during a religious war! Therefore, an excuse had to be invented to make the translations of Arabic books seem theologically correct.

It was claimed that all secular knowledge in Arabic books was an exact replica of what the early Greeks did. Since there were no early Greek sources, this claim was faith-based. It is contrary to commonsense that a scientific text would stay unchanged for a thousand years. But evidence or commonsense did not matter to the church, what mattered was that Eusebius had declared the early Greeks as the (sole) “friends of Christians”. Hence, attributing the source of knowledge to early Greeks made it a Christian inheritance! This flimsy excuse of Greek origins enabled the mass translations of books in the Toledo library, though many of these books were nevertheless initially placed on the index.


{Hence the mythic claims that Western civilization is based on Greco-Roman inheritance!}

Such acts of faith are not history. As David Fowler, a leading expert on Greek mathematics, explained, the earliest source for Archimedes is a Byzantine Greek text supposedly from the ninth century. Alas, even that was lost! What we actually have is a 16th century Latin text asserted to be a translation of it, whereas it probably reflects 16th century. knowledge. That is, all the evidence for Archimedes comes from a 16th century text in another language from another place, 1,800 years after the purported date of Archimedes!

To call this ‘evidence’ is as fanciful as claiming that a modern text on aerodynamics in English, from London, is an exact replica of an unknown Sanskrit source from the third century CE! The fanciful ‘Archimedes palimpsest’ is hardly worth discussing.

The Greeks could not have done science because they lacked sophistication in mathematics. Thus, the Greek/Roman system of numeration was so primitive they had no systematic way to represent fractions. Hence, there was no way Archimedes could have done anything on the sphere and cylinder (as Egyptians did). This inability to work with precise fractions is seen also in the calendar. Though the Romans laughed at the Greek calends, and Julius Caesar reformed the calendar with great fanfare, the Julian calendar remained defective just because the Romans had no way to write the precise fraction (not 365 ¼ days) for the duration of the (tropical) year.


This churchified history of Greek origins was later systematically promoted by racist historians who portrayed the Greeks (even from Alexandria in Africa) as white. Colonial historians further advanced it, linking the ‘Hellenic’ civilisation to the West. This claim facilitated colonial education: The filtered history written by losers in an earlier war, helped to consolidate colonial power. Those who wrote a biased version of history became victors.

We received this slanted history through colonial education, failing to see it was church education. It was intended to create a sense of inferiority among the colonised, whether Indians or blacks in Africa. Nevertheless, even 70 years after independence, we continue to glorify those mythical Greeks and their imagined achievements in our present-day school math texts from NCERT and various States. This false history is harmful in other subtle ways: Our entire teaching of math is premised on the false history of ‘Euclid’, and masks the demand to imitate church practices related to its theology of reason.

The colonised mind is comfortable with churchified history, even without evidence, but objects vociferously to any modification. Our school texts must be changed, but enforcing a change is counter-productive. This results in a flip-flop in the school texts every time the Government changes. A sustained public debate is needed to expose the complete lack of evidence for churchified history.

(The writer is an author)




sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3598
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Oct 2017 09:17

C. K. Raju, one of the clearest thinkers India has produced in contemporary times.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2017 22:34

X-post...
chetak wrote:
periaswamy wrote:I think there was a link to some analysis that pointed out that the US wanted to deny Russia access to any warm water ports in friendly states in the ME, as one of the reasons for "regime change" in Syria. Saudis got the cold shoulder from Russia during their recent visit, which makes sense given that they started this mess along with the US in order to screw Russia in the first place (along with Turkey).


the matter is one of denying an oil and gas pipeline from the ME to EU via syria and turkey to displace russia as a major oil/gas supplier to the EU. russia and iran have their common interests in spiking such a deal. The turks have had their own sub agenda running in the background, (until the fighter fiasco with russia derailed it), plotting and scheming to assume the leadership of the ummah which they think is their's by divine right


The saudis and the gelf lot have long since coveted a major role in the EU market. Amrekis control the gelf and hence they will replace russia as the new power broker in the EU giving the amrekis increased leverage over the recalcitrant europeans.

Currently, russia is the major oil and gas supplier to the EU and it wants to remain so and that major supplier position gives russia enormous but unwelcome influence in the EU.

It is the amrekis tying to once again reorder the world due to their own changed scheme of reinforcing their global eminence, and it may also why they decided to maintain a low level troop deployment in the afpak. possibly gaming how they can use India's chabahar port to bypass the pakis as one alternate supply line.

It is also why russia, fearing such a reordering, right in their big market, entered the arena in leveraging old alliances with syria and iran and turkey, (after it's fighter fiasco with the russians, where the russians showed erdogan some tough love and sucessfully deployed some "KYjelly" devoid, direct, hard hitting and penetrating diplomatic initiatives.). It may also have something to do with russians cosying up to the hans

The hans kept quiet about the active armed entry of both russia and amrika into the middle east muddle which was obama's parting gift to his country.



Turkey was trying to have its own sub-game in the Syrian war.

it was under the Turks that political Islam made such vast headway.
Under the Arabs, political Islam too on Syria, Iran and Spain.
Under Turks it hada much larger and longer footprint.
The Turks don't get credit but they stood Arab Islam on its head.
They allowed music (Sufi), dance (whirling dervishes) and they had masjids which were grave monuments for their religious leaders ( sort of idolatory).

All the above were prohibited by Arab Islam.

These three measures allowed the spread of Sunni Islam under the Turks.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16547
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby chetak » 20 Oct 2017 22:57

ramana wrote:X-post...
chetak wrote:
the matter is one of denying an oil and gas pipeline from the ME to EU via syria and turkey to displace russia as a major oil/gas supplier to the EU. russia and iran have their common interests in spiking such a deal. The turks have had their own sub agenda running in the background, (until the fighter fiasco with russia derailed it), plotting and scheming to assume the leadership of the ummah which they think is their's by divine right


The saudis and the gelf lot have long since coveted a major role in the EU market. Amrekis control the gelf and hence they will replace russia as the new power broker in the EU giving the amrekis increased leverage over the recalcitrant europeans.

Currently, russia is the major oil and gas supplier to the EU and it wants to remain so and that major supplier position gives russia enormous but unwelcome influence in the EU.

It is the amrekis tying to once again reorder the world due to their own changed scheme of reinforcing their global eminence, and it may also why they decided to maintain a low level troop deployment in the afpak. possibly gaming how they can use India's chabahar port to bypass the pakis as one alternate supply line.

It is also why russia, fearing such a reordering, right in their big market, entered the arena in leveraging old alliances with syria and iran and turkey, (after it's fighter fiasco with the russians, where the russians showed erdogan some tough love and sucessfully deployed some "KYjelly" devoid, direct, hard hitting and penetrating diplomatic initiatives.). It may also have something to do with russians cosying up to the hans

The hans kept quiet about the active armed entry of both russia and amrika into the middle east muddle which was obama's parting gift to his country.



Turkey was trying to have its own sub-game in the Syrian war.

it was under the Turks that political Islam made such vast headway.
Under the Arabs, political Islam too on Syria, Iran and Spain.
Under Turks it hada much larger and longer footprint.
The Turks don't get credit but they stood Arab Islam on its head.
They allowed music (Sufi), dance (whirling dervishes) and they had masjids which were grave monuments for their religious leaders ( sort of idolatory).

All the above were prohibited by Arab Islam.

These three measures allowed the spread of Sunni Islam under the Turks.


Thank you, ramana ji.

a masterly command as well as deep insight into facts with a fine ability to weave them into a credible tapestry.

Very illuminating, as usual.

Sirji, some thoughts on turkeys agenda and the way it has conducted itself in the syrian war, perhaps?? also touching upon Erdogans role and his consolidation of absolute power by seizing control of the army?? Does it have anything to with Erdogan trying to force his way into the EU on his terms??

what is he afraid of?? why did he buy the S-400 system from russia and why did russia agree to sell??

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 21 Oct 2017 00:27

Chetak wrote:
Sirji, some thoughts on turkeys agenda and the way it has conducted itself in the syrian war, perhaps??
also touching upon Erdogans role and his consolidation of absolute power by seizing control of the army??
Does it have anything to with Erdogan trying to force his way into the EU on his terms??

what is he afraid of??
why did he buy the S-400 system from russia and why did russia agree to sell??



Thanks for the kind words chetak. It spurs more thinking!!!


I would go to Battle of Vienna in 1683. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

Short recap. Europe has just finished the 30 years war in 1648 and signed the Treaty of Westphalia and launched the modern world.

About 35 years later the Ottoman Turks invade Europe and lay siege to Vienna the eastern most frontier capital in Europe, after which "the Ottoman Turks ceased to be a menace to the Christian world".

The Ottomans got defeated for the first time since 1299. They left behind tons of coffee that the Viennese took up and even now best coffee in Europe is in Vienna. A Viennese baker created the croissant as victory symbol. Every time you eat one you are conquering the Ottoman Turkey.

This defeat touched of a 150 year introspection in Ottoman Turkey on the causes of defeat. Meantime Turkey started losing Eastern Europe to Russia which liberated most of it from Turkey. And went on to expand to Siberia taking over many Central Asian Turkic lands.

It was decided the problem was the pre-modern military and the Ottoman society. Sultan Mehmet II(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmud_II) abolished the janissaries in 1826 and killed most of them by 1830. He created a modern Army that lasted till 1920.

At same time he and his successor launched baroque style of reconstruction in Istanbul. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulmejid_I) Look at the architecture. So both these Sultans started Westernizing their societies. Its possible that their mothers had a role for in Turkey women are very powerful as I saw on a recent trip!!!

Baroque is prelude to Modernism. I saw that in Istanbul, Vienna and even in London. But its not obvious. (In fact I don't like Hanumathappa's Vidhan Soudha or Lootyens Delhi for its baroque architecture for what it portends.)

After the defeat and overthrow of the Sultanate, Kemal Attaturk modernized Turkey. Ismet Inounu, the successor of Attaturk kept Turkey out of WWII and eventually part of NATO. This kind of completed the cycle started by Mahmud II about 120 years before. Till recent elections Turkey was ruled by generals.

The West saw Turkey in NATO as denying Soviet Russia a foothold in Balkans and bottleneck into Mediterranean Sea. However Turkey saw it as part of eventual integration into Europe which was the object of their Modernization. They lost quite a few Turkish things on the way.

The end of Cold War finished off the Turkish utility for West in Europe. And they stalled and stopped EU integration.

At this juncture Erdogan gets into power. And sees that he needs to re-establish Turkey to Ottoman greatness to get any respect. This forced Obama to use the Gulen card to get rid of Erdogan. The Gulenist coup supported by Obama was last betrayal after Turkey acted as proxy for the West in Middle East. I think Erdogan got tipped off from those hacked files and owes one to Russia. Hence the new bonhomie.

S-400 is a weapon of prestige and Erdogan getting them means he is being weaned away from NATO.

I may be wrong on fine points but this is the big picture.


What does Turkey want?

They want to modernize but retain Islamic society with its own Turkish characteristics.
In Turkey I saw three types of : traditional i.e. burkha/abhaya, modern with hijab/ Bearded men in western clothes, Western with no Hijab/no beards.

Istanbul has become a hub for Central Asia and North Africa and is building a new airport.

One way to think of Turkey is its Anatolia or Troy.
Even Alexander's empire was mostly Asian.

The copy of Hittite treaty is there in the Istanbul Museum.


A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10171
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Oct 2017 09:41

This speech by Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel, October 1, 1948, made to people in the Armed Forces of India, is a great example of an Indian non-western worldview.
(my blog)

http://thepartitionofindia.blogspot.com ... world.html

Excerpt:

I am proud of the Air Force, for their doings in the short period, both in Kashmir and Hyderabad; for their work for the relief operations, for removing the refugees, for supply the necessities of the army in Kashmir. While people talk of our failing to follow Gandhiji’s teachings, I wish to give you one example which I remember from his conversation. When Srinagar was touch and go, when we wanted to put our Army in Srinagar and when the Air Force was asked that they had to carry the Army and all its requirements quickly, they did it with wonderful speed; and if we had been late by twenty-four hours the whole game would have been lost. That is the work which you have done, which is written in letters of gold in the history of Freedom. We are proud of you. But what Gandhiji said to me was “I feel so proud when I hear the noise of these airplanes. At one time, I was feeling very miserable and oppressed when I heard this. But when this Kashmir operation began, I began to feel proud of them and every airplane that goes with materials and arms and ammunitions and requirements of the Army. I feel proud.” Because he felt injustice over Kashmir by the raiders. And he said: “Any injustice on our land, any encroachment on our land should either be defended by violence, if not by non-violence.” “If you can defend by non-violence, by all means do it; that is the first thing I should like. If it is for me to do, I would not touch anything, either a pistol or revolver or anything. But I would not see India degrading itself to be feeling helpless. Therefore, when the Air Force has performed this miracle of saving Srinagar by its organized strength and the co-operation it gave to the Army, I feel proud of them and I feel happy.” That is what he said.

Therefore, those who say that we do not follow the preachings or teachings of the Mahatma, we tell them: “Perhaps you from a distance know better about Mahatma’s teachings than we who have all our life with him know. Thank you very much. We will not take our lessons from you, but we will go our own way. We must go our own way. We have got small lights. We must work according to our own lights.

komal
BRFite
Posts: 396
Joined: 29 Oct 2007 14:47

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby komal » 24 Oct 2017 10:32

^
Well written and researched blog.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6915
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby JE Menon » 12 Jan 2018 22:10

The Kumbh Mela - a new video which explains and gives a glimpse into the underlying elements of the dharmic worldview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReWiJ4pd6Kc

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18866
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2018 20:31

No longer just "out of Africa",but now,"out of India too"! :rotfl:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 89051.html

News ScienceArchaeology
Mysterious stone tools found in India suggest early human exit from Africa
Archaeologists say advanced artefacts could be evidence of early migration into region, but are 'very cautious' about conclusion due to lack of fossil remains

Josh Gabbatiss Science Correspondent a day ago

Stone tools discovered in India could be evidence of humans entering the region earlier than previously imagined, or could suggest the independent development of an advanced culture Sharma Centre for Heritage Education, India
Advanced stone tools and blades found at a site in India have made archaeologists question the origins and early evolution of humans outside Africa.


Over 7,000 artefacts were unearthed at Attirampakkam in southern India, some of which suggest a level of development known as “Middle Palaeolithic culture”.

Based on analysis of the tools, this culture appears to have emerged in India around 385,000 years ago, roughly the same time it developed in Europe and Africa.

READ MORE
Oldest human fossil outside Africa discovered in Israel
The findings challenge the assumption that Middle Palaeolithic technology was brought to India between 46,000 and 140,000 years ago.

Crucially, it could also mean migration by modern humans out of Africa took place earlier than previously thought.

However, the researchers noted they were “very cautious on this point” because no human fossils were found with the tools.

Recently the discovery of a 200,000 year-old jawbone in Israel provided the earliest direct evidence of humans migrating out of Africa.

That discovery was described as “exciting” by experts as it pushed the date of human migration out of Africa back by up to 100,000 years.

Researchers at Tel Aviv University shed new light on early modern human evolution
However, the lack of human remains with the Indian tools means it is impossible to say for certain whether they were made by modern humans – Homo sapiens – or some other species of archaic human such as Neanderthals.

Professor Shanti Pappu of the Sharma Centre for Heritage Education said it is unclear whether the technology is the result of migration bringing in new ideas, or early non-Homo sapiens inhabitants of the region developing advanced tools in isolation.

The results of the study were published in the journal Nature.

Dr Michael Petraglia, an archaeologist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, who was not involved in the research, said he did not think these tools provided enough evidence to push humanity’s departure from Africa even further back.

READ MORE
Skull found in China could re-write story of human evolution
What’s behind the ancient footprints found in Crete?
Tool-making monkeys ‘throw spanner’ in human evolution
“I simply don’t buy it,” said Dr Petraglia, who specialises in early human evolution in Asia.

Instead, he agreed with the other option offered by Professor Pappu – that early, non-modern humans living in southern India developed the tool style without the need for input from outsiders.

The tools discovered at the Attirampakkam site show a range of complexities, and appear to show a development in style which could mean the more advanced Middle Palaeolithic tools were arrived at gradually.

Understanding the transition of tool making across India is difficult, as there are very few well-studied archaeological sites across the region.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18866
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Philip » 13 Feb 2018 13:01

The scandal of Western "humanitarian assistance" and the grim reality of what it actually is.The OXFAM scandal in Haiti,where aid workers gave aid in exchange for sexual favours,used aid money for whoring and even as alleged abused children too,is just the tip of the iceberg of Western NGOs and their "humanitarian" concernes,which swing into action everytime disaster strikes the "turd world".They must be celebrating when disaster strikes so that they can go on another jaunt,be treated like demi-gods by the suffering,straving survivors and willing to be abused for a scrap of food.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/oxf ... 06646.html
The prostitution claims surrounding Oxfam don’t surprise me. I’ve seen it all before with charities across the world – and the UN
In 1999, during my first trip to Kosovo, I was told by my driver that a number of brothels were being built close to the area inhabited by a number of charities and UN organisations because so many of the men stationed there were prolific prostitute users. This was despite the fact they were working on anti-trafficking strategies

Julie Bindel
Survivors of the 2010 earthquake that killed more than 200,000 people in Haiti wash their clothes in Port au Prince Getty
Just when I thought my opinion of pro-prostitution lobbyists could not get any lower, I see a tweet by one about the Oxfam scandal: “Buying sex from professionals is not sexual misconduct and women in Haiti may well have been glad to get the sex work. I hate prissy Establishment fiddle-faddle implying ‘development’ workers are ethical puritans or saints.”

There you have it. The idea that the women involved in prostitution in Haiti are somehow benefiting from being bought and sold by the very men that are supposed to be helping them cope with their hellish existence.

Let us consider what this person is defending. Oxfam's country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, admitted using prostituted females at premises paid for with charitable funds. Children may well have been among those abused by van Hauwermeiren and other aid workers. This happened after the earthquake in 2010, which killed 220,000 people, injured 300,000 and left 1.5 million homeless.

There are also allegations that some male senior officials at the charity were using prostituted women and girls in Chad in 2006. Many men working in developing countries consider using women in this way as a “perk of the job”. We know that many sex markets in countries such as the Philippines exist because of the presence of the military and so-called “peacekeepers”.

These men are enabling terrible human rights violations. They are literally propping up a system that causes misery and heartache for women and children. There have been numerous cases of child sexual abuse and human trafficking inside Haiti’s orphanages following the earthquake, and some young women have spoken about the desperation and poverty that led them to street prostitution.

Andrew Mitchell says Oxfam 'did report the matter to the Department for International Development but he wasn't informed
Wherever there is conflict, natural disasters and dire poverty, women and children will be abused into prostitution. Traffickers target countries such as Haiti, knowing that there will be rich pickings, because women and girls will be additionally vulnerable.

I have witnessed scandals like this before. In 1999, during my first trip to Kosovo, shortly after the end of the war, I was told by my driver that a number of brothels were being built close to the area inhabited by a number of charities and UN organisations, because so many of the men stationed there were prolific prostitute users. I saw a number of men going in and out of these establishments, despite the fact that many of them were there to advise local law enforcers on anti-trafficking strategies.

I also recall the scandal that broke when Kathryn Bolkovac, a monitor with United Nations International Police Task Force in Bosnia and Herzegovina, sued her employers for unfair dismissal when she lost her job in 1999 after she reported that officers were paying for sex, raping underage girls and participating in sex trafficking. I was in the Balkans when the story first emerged, and spoke to a number of UN officials about it. Many of the men I spoke to either justified officials paying for sex, suggesting that they were away from home for a long time and “needed” sex, or accused Bolkovac of lying.

David Lamb, a former Philadelphia police officer who served as a UN human rights investigator in Bosnia until 2009, investigated allegations that six Romanian, Fijian and Pakistani officers stationed in the town of Bijeljina were trafficking women into prostitution.

Lamb found plenty of evidence to justify a full-scale criminal investigation, and faced physical threats and blocking by his superiors, including a senior Ukrainian police officer who ordered an end to the investigation.

The sex trade is built on colonialism and racism, as well as misogyny. Whether it is the overrepresentation of African American girls and women in prostitution in the US, or the targeting of indigenous and native women and girls in countries such as Australia, New Zealand and Canada, it is clear that rich, powerful, white men consider it their “right” to use such women and girls as commodities.

Oxfam is supposed to put vulnerable women and children at the centre of its efforts, and yet some of the organisation’s most senior male officials appear to have done the opposite. It is nothing short of a disgrace that prostitution apologists somehow create a defence of these vile sexual predators by suggesting that the women and girls lured into the sex trade are somehow making a “choice”, and are “professionals” doing a “job”. These women and girls are being abused and exploited by men who are paid huge salaries to make their lives less horrendous.

One of the myths about the sex trade is that the men who rent the inside of women’s bodies for their one-sided sexual pleasure are somehow doing a favour to their victims because money changes hands. As my close friend and colleague, the formidable writer and sex trade survivor Rachel Moran, has said in response to white liberals who claim paying for sex is defensible because it provides an income to poor women: “Wouldn’t you say, if a person cannot afford to feed themselves, the appropriate thing to put in their mouth is food, not your c*ck?

More about: OxfamProstitutionUnited Nations

Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 688
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Haresh » 13 Feb 2018 13:36

ramana wrote:Debunking myths about history Western history was written exclusively by Christian priests, who wanted to convert the entire world to Christianity. A sustained debate is needed to expose the lack of evidence for churchified history


I have just googles "The myth of persecution"
Early Christians were not persecuted by the Romans. This was made up.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?dcr=0&e ... DXQl38Ie1Y

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 18866
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Philip » 13 Feb 2018 16:43

Not true.Nero was a monster who persecuted almost everyone! Christians were fed to the lions.Later Christians also persecuted others,especially during the Spanish Inquisition.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10171
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby A_Gupta » 24 Feb 2018 20:03

A question - consider the bhajan "Vaishnava jana tho tene kahiye..." - Narasinh Mehta's 15th century composition.

This bhajan basically says "Call those Vaishnavas who have certain qualities", e.g., feel the pain of others, help those who are in misery, but never let self-conceit enter their mind, etc.

Now, the way I (and I think most Hindus see it) this is not saying that those who don't have these qualities are not Vaishnavas, or are hypocrites or apostates. But in an Abrahamic worldview, one could say, "Narasinh Mehta wrote that "I consider such and such people not to be Vaishnavas...".

Not with this particular example, but I think this game is played to sow the seeds of conflict.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 61961
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Singha » 26 Feb 2018 16:27

the iranian Alan people made one of the longest staged migrations in history, starting from the caspian basin and finally ending in a kingdom in north africa via all of europe and western asia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10171
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby A_Gupta » 26 Feb 2018 18:54

So "Aryan" became "Alan"?

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10171
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby A_Gupta » 12 Mar 2018 17:42

https://swarajyamag.com/science/newton- ... t-hindutva
Newton And The Problem Of ‘Cargo Cult’ Hindutva
What we have here is ‘cargo cult’ Hindutva, which dominates through memes. It presents a highly-contrived worldview. Here, it is often claimed that Hindus discovered gravity, and Newton 'stole' from Hindus the idea of gravitational force. Such claims come from cultural illiteracy and an inferiority complex, and the ignorance of how global science evolves through contributions from various cultures. More importantly, such claims also deprive the Hindutva supporters of the important work of bringing to the fore the contributions India really made to the evolution of scientific discourse.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49313
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 12 Mar 2018 22:48

I guess the writer is a super rear being different from the unwashed saffron masses in dhotis.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34915
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby shiv » 13 Mar 2018 07:26

I had an epiphany yesterday. It occurs to me that most of our advanced study - at least the "advanced studies" that have been done by the people who lead India today and people around my age and somewhat older and younger. The main body of work studied would have been stuff that became "fact" in the 50s to the 70s and published in English from UK and later US sources.

Now if you look at the body of literature that has come from that era - it is still considered true. You will find that the world is divided up into the "advanced west" (includes Japan), the Soviet Union and its bloc, a "rising China" and third world of developing nations India, Africa etc

This is the way Indian scholars look at the world. They have never learned that India too has a place in this world - but they simply cannot place India anywhere because the "academic theories of the world" have no place for India. Cartoons about Indians breaking into a space club derive from a viewpoint that has no place for India. This does not mean that India has no place. India has a huge presence in the world in so many ways - but scholars who write about the "structure of international relations and the pecking order" just do not have the academic background that allows them to place India anywhere. India is not the only "victim" of these academic blinkers. Even nations like Iran and North Korea have this problem, as do all African nations.

What we need is an entire new body of literature that defines the world as it is rather than looking at the world through outmoded post world war 2 and cold war lenses. Neither western nor Indian scholars have done that yet. One of the reasons why educated Indians are so scathing and derisive about India is precisely because no one can define a place for India in their minds - but everyone is clear about the west, Russia and China. This is laughably absurd.

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4118
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Murugan » 13 Mar 2018 17:55

We have been told that we are different - jain, buddhists and hindus.

Because of this we stopped reading/knowing about large repository of knowledge recorded in their work - especially the well preserved ancient Jain and Buddhist work. They can along substantiate our claims.

They are
Jaina agamas and suttas
Tripitaka(sukapitaka, abhidhamma and Vinayapitaka)
Various secular hindu works in sanskrit and other languages

later Arabs took away too much from us and translated, and probably digested our work. Claiming them to be their own.

We need to learn our ancient languages, scripts and Arabic/Persian and Mandarin too. We can beat them just by reconnecting.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10171
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby A_Gupta » 14 Mar 2018 02:51

shiv wrote:
What we need is an entire new body of literature that defines the world as it is rather than looking at the world through outmoded post world war 2 and cold war lenses. Neither western nor Indian scholars have done that yet.


Further, the Indian political leadership on its own cannot do this redefinition.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests