Non-Western Worldview

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Rahul M » 12 Dec 2008 11:44

this is wrt brihaspati ji's post in the elections thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&p=585906#p585906

from an email discussing if Indian society is already pluralistic in nature.
the reference to european countries is, I believe, relevant.
exclusivity is usually a manifestation of insecurities of an individual or in case of a society,
of the collective consciousness.
pluralism in such societies are forced from the top to serve the larger interests of the native population, usually those related to trade and manpower shortages and occasionally politics.
if europe finds pluralism is not serving its interests(not necessarily causing any harm !) it will only be too happy to go back to exclusivity.

it doesn't help if the religious doctrines followed in these lands get shaped by similar exclusivist mentality.

One reason for this psyche is the history of ancient and medieval europe. A land which can hardly support its occupants does not encourage people to welcome 'others'.

In this backdrop it is not surprising that europe saw as many wars as it did and that it is still, essentially a fragmented continent.
given its small size, it is surprising that it has so many political entities if we consider say, India as the norm. on the other hand India is surprising if europe is the norm !

Here is why I think this happened.
Inspite of some common heritage from greco-roman times, mainly due to roman occupation, the only common point europeans identified themselves around happened to be the fact that they were fighting for the same lands outside europe and winning against the natives !
with it came a bit of shared racial superiority complex but not much more.
the european identity asserted itself only when there was consistent interaction of a large part of european masses with non-whites elsewhere, something which started in the 15th century but picked up pace with the industrial revolution.

and even this didn't stop them from continuing to fight tooth and nail among themselves, resulting in a number of bloody wars amongst themselves.

another interesting point is the fact that virtually all european nation states started out as city-states and expanded outwards. starting from rome which was always at war with cities of northern italy and the greek cities which were fighting among themselves european history is basically the history of its city-states and NOT of the political entities we call nations today.

therefore, we find that nationhood does not come to europe naturally, the states we see today are basically a forced grouping of city-states overcoming their distrust of each other(as the outsider) in order to protect themselves against the 'alien' (a worse kind of outsider).
a glimpse at the age of these entities gives ample proof of this fact.

the places we call italy or germany today are essentially artificial constructs borne out of a reaction to the 'outsiders' threat.
(it is of course a credit to the rulers that they have successfully removed the internal friction systematically over a few decades)

is it any wonder that the populace there find it difficult to imbibe the values of pluralism ??

USA is a slightly different case as the various europeans who landed there had to work together to defend against (what else ?) the outsider threat !
in the end, the cities did become a melting pot, for whites at least. I suppose the situation is changing now.

US cities are more pluralistic because they have more experience of bringing people outside to do the job, the last major example being the manhattan project. they know the benefit outsiders bring to the country and hence put up with them.

europe will also go the same way if it reaps similar benefits. But I doubt they will, for one, they don't have as much money and two, they are late to the party !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in India, you will find that even the smaller states were much more organic in nature. it is not a case of city-states giving rise to larger states but large chunks of the subcontinent forming states. e.g the maurya empire started as the magadha empire and not as one based in pataliputra. indeed, the capital of magadha was moved from rajgir to pataliputra from the times of the earlier magadha kingdoms without any substantial alteration in the nature of the empire.

essentially, what this means is that Indian states drew their identity from the villages and the common people, in that their roots went much deeper and wider than an alliance forged by a city-state would.
the smaller states were almost always divided by geographical features and not by cultural ones -- a river, a mountain range, an extensive forest.
cultural differences arose later, as an effect of this divison.

the Indian state was thus by design more inclusive in nature, in spite of the likeliness that one geographical area probably had more dialects spoken than all of europe ! (please see NOTE)

In India, unbelievably, throughout this vast and diverse landscape, people still found enough common ground to proclaim themselves as belonging to a shared nationhood of aryavarta.

It is this that prevented the kings from unleashing horrors and rapine on the populace of conquered states -- they may be under an enemy king but they themselves were not enemy.

All this has perhaps to do with the fact that the original blueprint of the glue i.e SD spread from one small geographical area to the whole sub-continent, taking the local hues and colours as it went and emerging all the more richer out of it.

is it pluralism as the west defines it ? I don't think so.
Indians are essentially one people with similar defining characteristics who have certain perturbations from the mean and people who are one nation living together can't be considered pluralism, can it ?

In the Indian context, pluralism check can only be carried out in the instances when foreigners outside of India came into this country.
due to the tolerant ethos of the native creed people who didn't come with ill-will were always accepted into the fold. that, may be called pluralism !

Have I answered any of your questions or is it all gibberish ?

regards.

NOTE.1) the more fertile and/or habitable a place is larger the no of languages. equatorial africa has the highest # of spoken languages/sq. km in the world. this happens because communities tend to be self-sufficient w/o much interaction. That, is just a facet of human evolution.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Johann » 12 Dec 2008 15:08

surinder wrote:There was an interesting program on Hugo Chavez of Venezuela on PBS TV last night.

Chavez has a weekly TV show on which journalists come too. A British journalist asked him why Chavez has tried to get the governers elected, but increase his tem limit. Chavez took him to town. Mocked him and cynically mocked the Europe's contempt for those "barbaric Indians, Blacks of S. America". He asked the journalist you have a queen, is she elected?

The journalists just looked crushed. All he said was he was Irish and a republican. Which still did not answer why The Guardian (he was from this newspaper) would ask a Venezualan why his term is longer than that of governers, but why not ask the Queen why she is never elected?


How did the Guardian or Times etc reporters dare question his CEOness General President Musharraf's LFO?

The monarchy doesnt rule Britain. There would certainly be hell to pay if it tried to. The last time monarchy and the parliament got in to an argument it was three and a half centuries ago, somebody lost their head, and it wasnt anyone from parliament. How many people inside or outside the UK think democracy there is under threat?

The president rules Venezuela, and Chavez has repeatedly attempted to drastically alter its constitution, and the existing system of checks and balances.

The Guardian routinely prints matter critical of the UK's monarchy, which the monarchy always responds to. It has to since it only exists through public forbearance.

In Chavez's case his only defence is denunciations of imperialism and racism, and whatever other distraction he can muster.

Mugabe did the same thing for a few years - try to turn an issue about dictatorship in to an anti-colonial issue. It only works if you have the genuine support of the majority of your public. That means delivering results, year after year all along Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Dictatorship can never do that. Mugabe instead turned Zimbabwe, one of the wealthiest African countries in to one of its poorest.

Chavez has not been given the same initial free hand by the Venezuelan public, so he hasnt succeeded in ruining Venezuela yet. And if he ever succeeds, foreigners who defended him will feel just as embarassed about the results as those who defended Mugabe or Musharraf.

Dictators are dictators, regardless of race or ideology, or the race or the ideology of the people who point out what they are.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Chinmayanand » 14 Dec 2008 11:46

Collection of World’s best quotes on Vedic Culture and Hinduism

“Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries” - Robert Oppenheimer, Father of Modern Atomic Bomb

The juxtaposition of Western civilization’s most terrifying scientific achievement with the most dazzling description of the mystical experience is given to us by the Bhagavad Gita, India’s greatest literary monument. - Robert Oppenheimer, referring to the description of atomic bomb in Bhagavadgita

When I read the Bhagavad Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous. - Albert Einstein

The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still. - Carl Sagan, Well known Astrophysicist

I go into the Upanishads to ask questions. - Niels Bohr, Well known Quantum Physicist

The apparent multiplication of gods is bewildering at the first glance, but you soon discover that they are the same GOD. There is always one uttermost God who defies personification. This makes Hinduism the most tolerant religion in the world, because its one transcendent God includes all possible gods. In fact Hinduism is so elastic and so subtle that the most profound Methodist, and crudest idolater, are equally at home with it - George Bernard Shaw

This life of yours which you are living is not merely apiece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear; tat tvam asi, this is you. Or, again, in such words as “I am in the east and the west, I am above and below, I am this entire world.” - Erwin Schrodinger, Well known Quantum Physicist

A millennium before Europeans were wiling to divest themselves of the Biblical idea that the world was a few thousand years old, the Mayans were thinking of millions and the Hindus billions. - Carl Sagan, Well known Astrophysicist
The Vedas compare creation to a spider’s web, that the spider creates and then lies within. God is both the container of the universe and what is contained in it.
- Ramakrishna

The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of physics was a model of a great machine composed of separable interacting material particles. During the next few years, Schrodinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on super imposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One. - Erwin Schrodinger, Well known Quantum Physicist

The true Vedantic spirit does not start out with a system of preconceived ideas. It possesses absolute liberty and unrivalled courage among religions with regard to the facts to be observed and the diverse hypotheses it has laid down for their coordination. Never having been hampered by a priestly order, each man has been entirely free to search wherever he pleased for the spiritual explanation of the spectacle of the universe.
-Romain Rolland

“Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy: by one, or more, or all of these — and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.”
-Swami Vivekananda

Vedanta teaches that consciousness is singular, all happenings are played out in one universal consciousness and there is no multiplicity of selves. - Erwin Schrodinger, Well known Quantum Physicist

“The Hindu believes that he is a spirit. Him the sword cannot pierce; him the fire cannot burn; him the water cannot melt; him the air cannot dry. The Hindu believes that every soul is a circle whose circumference is nowhere, but whose center is located in the body, and that death means the change of this center from body to body“
-Swami Vivekananda

“I had practiced Hinduism from early childhood. My nurse had taught me to invoke Rama when I feared evil spirits. Later on I had came in contact with Christians, Muslims and others, and after making a fair study of other religions, had stuck to Hinduism. I am as firm in my faith today as in my early childhood.”
-Mahatma Gandhi

I am a Hindu hence I Love not only human beings, but all living beings. Hinduism insists on the brotherhood of not only all mankind but of all that lives. -Mahatma Gandhi

Religious faith in the case of the Hindus has never been allowed to run counter to scientific laws, moreover the former is never made a condition for the knowledge they teach, but there are always scrupulously careful to take into consideration the possibility that by reason both the agnostic and atheist may attain truth in their own way. Such tolerance may be surprising to religious believers in the West, but it is an integral part of Vedantic belief.
- Romain Rolland

It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history , the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family. - Dr. Arnold J. Toynbee - British Historian

Benares (A Hindu holy place in India on the banks of river Ganges) is holy. Europe, grown superficial, hardly understands such truths anymore…..I feel nearer here than I have ever done to the heart of the world; here I feel everyday as if soon, perhaps even today, I would receive the grace of supreme revelation…The atmosphere of devotion which hangs above the river is improbable in strength; stronger than in any church that I have ever visited. Every would be Christian priest would do well to sacrifice a year of his theological studies in order to spend his time on the Ganges; here he would discover what piety means. - Count Hermann Keyserling - philosopher

Amid all the beliefs of Europe, and of Asia, that of the Indian Brahmins seems to me infinitely the most alluring. And the reason why I love the Brahmin more than the other schools of Asiatic thought is because it seems to me to contain them all. Greater than all European philosophies, it is even capable of adjusting itself to the vast hypotheses of modern science. Our Christian religions have tried in vain, when there were no other choice open to them, to adapt themselves to the progress of science. But after having allowed myself to be swept away by the powerful rhythm of Brahmin thought, along the curve or life, with its movement of alternating ascent and return, I come back to my own century, and while finding therein the immense projections of a new cosmogony, offspring of the genius of Einstein, or deriving freely from the discoveries, I yet do not feel that I enter a strange land. I yet can hear resounding still the cosmic symphony of all those planets which forever succeed each other, are extinguished and once more illumined, with their living souls, their humanities, their gods – according to the laws of the eternal To Become, the Brahmin Samsara – I hear Siva dancing, dancing in the heart of the world, in my own heart. - Romain Rolland

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 16 Dec 2008 22:00

Thanks for those quotes on Vedic Culture and Hinduism...
X-posted...
Deccan Chronicle, 15 Dec., 2008

‘Circling’ pig critical


Penugonda, Dec. 15: The white piglet that began circumambulating the dhwaja sthambham of the Venkateswara Swamy temple on Sunday, collapsed at about for 4.30 pm on Monday. Thousands of people had watched the piglet which circumambuled the pillar well into the second day at Sidhantham village in Penugonda mandal in the West Godavari.

The piglet had been continuously circling the dhwaja sthambham with occasional breaks, without accepting any food A veterinarian found that the animal had become weak and its pulse rate had fallen. As the piglet lay on the floor, devotees offered it dry grass, shifted it on to a gunny bag and covered it with a cloth.

Devotees, temple staff and a veterinary doctor are keeping an eye on the animal, whose condition is critical. Prominent vedic pandit Chirravuri Krishna Somayajulu said, "The piglet has taken up deeksha by observing fast in the presence of Venkateswara Swamy. On December 16, Dhanur Masam will begin and the doors of Vaikuntam will be opened." Devotees fear it may not survive that long.



Strange are the ways of Vishnu. Only in India can such an incident happen. In Islamic lands the piglet would be killed. In Enlightened lands he would be taken to a farm and then killed after he grows.

May he get moksha and breakout of this cycle of life and death!
---------

I dont know the follow-up story. If Andhra Pradesh members find out please post the follw-up.
Thanks, ramana

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby gandharva » 17 Dec 2008 11:18

I dont know the follow-up story. If Andhra Pradesh members find out please post the follw-up.


Piglet receives medical care


Tanuku, Dec. 16: The white piglet, which fell unconscious after circling the Dwaja Sthambham at Venkateswaraswamy temple at Siddantham of Penugonda mandal in West Godavari in the last two days was shifted to a veterinary clinic for medical treatment on Tuesday.

The animal, which slipped into a coma was examined by the veterinary doctors and was given a dose of saline. Its blood samples were collected and sent for analysis to a lab at Eluru. Veterinary doctor V. Prasad said that if necessary they would send the blood samples to Hyderabad for examination. He suspected that the animal might have been infected with brain related disease resulting in the animal going in circles at the temple.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/City/Cit ... cal%20care

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby R Vaidya » 18 Dec 2008 20:50

Government Gifts Rs. 23 crore to Harvard
When Indian Institutions are starved

http://www.dnaindia.com/dnaprint.asp?newsid=1214632

R.vaidya

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2009 04:35

Pay attention to the boled part.

ramana wrote:op-ed Pioneer, 31 oct., 2008

Art of looking the other way

Francois Gautier

Those who select the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize suffer from selective amnesia about India and its ancient knowledge and traditions. Hence the winner is not an Indian

In a remarkable book, L'oubli de l'Inde (Amnesia of India), French philosopher and journalist Roger-Pol Droit recounts how till the 19th century Europe's admiration for Indian philosophy and spirituality was boundless, particularly in France and Germany, both terra franca of philosophical thought. He explains how, for instance, French philosopher Pierre Sonnerat had written in the 18th century: "Ancient India gave to the world its religions and philosophies: Egypt and Greece owe India their wisdom and it is known that Pythagoras went to India to study under Brahmins, who were the most enlightened of human beings."

Or how German philosophers, such as Friedrich Schlegel, have said: "There is no language in the world, even Greek, which has the clarity and the philosophical precision of Sanskrit." Nietzsche had read the Vedas, which he admired profoundly and thought that "Buddhism and Brahmanism are a hundred times deeper and more objective than Christianity".

It was not only in the realm of philosophy that Europe admired India. American mathematician A Seindenberg wrote: "Arithmetic equations were used in the observation of the triangle by the Babylonians and the theory of contraries and of inexactitude in arithmetic methods, discovered by Hindus inspired Pythagorean mathematics".

Seventeenth century French astronomer Jean-Claude Bailly had already noticed that "the Hindu astronomic systems were much more ancient than those of the Greeks or even the Egyptians and the movement of stars which was calculated by the Hindus 4,500 years ago, does not differ from those used today by even one minute".


When Nietzsche died in January 1889, the India of philosophy, of the Vedas and spirituality seemed to have disappeared with him from the consciousness of Europeans. Since then, Europe (and the United States) believe in what Droit calls "Helleno-Centrism", that all philosophical systems started with Greece and there was nothing worth the name before the Greeks. The two main culprits for this amnesia of India in Europe, thinks Pol Droit, are the British colonisers and the Christian missionaries. How could the English, they who had come to civilise the 'heathens', admit that their culture was derived from these very savages? And how could the missionaries, they who had come to bring the 'true god' to the Pagans, acknowledge that their own religion may have been influenced by the latter, as Jesus Christ is supposed to have come to India to study Hinduism and Buddhism?

What has this got to do with the Nobel Peace Prize, you may ask? Well, first, one has to understand the minds of the Nobel Peace Prize committee members: When they award prizes, they are necessarily influenced by a Christian vision of the world. For, as most Europeans, they have been brought-up in the belief that democracy and philosophy started with Greece and that a humane civilisation began with Jesus Christ. And, of course, they have a covert -- or at best unconscious -- suspicion, if not of India at least of Hindus, who for them remain Pagans, which the missionaries of yesteryears, and unfortunately those of today too, have created in the minds of many Westerners. How can they then give Peace Prize to a Hindu?

Among those Indians most nominated in the last few years is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the founder of the Art of Living. Sri Sri is not only involved with charity in India's villages, he also promotes pesticide and fertiliser-free farming, takes orphans from Jammu & Kashmir and the North-East into his ashram, and his volunteers do relief work, both at the physical and psychological level -- whether in Bihar during the floods, in Iraq or in the US during the recent cyclone. Sri Sri is also trying to revive the ancient Vedic tradition by training young priests in a gurukul, which blends ancient knowledge with modern thought, while promoting ayurveda as the medicine of the 21st century.

There is only one problem: Sri Sri is a Hindu. In the same way the Nobel judges ignored Sri Aurobindo, India's extraordinary yogi, poet, revolutionary, and philosopher and France is yet to acknowledge that one of the great figures of the 20th century was his spiritual companion, Mira Alfassa, the 'Mother'.

Will Sri Sri ever get the Nobel then? Maybe his manifold work confuses the judges. For, if you analyse all recent Nobel Peace Prize recipients, you will see that they were crowned for their work which carries only one label.

Sri Sri is not bothered and goes on with his work. As he gains fame in the West, he helps erase the amnesia about India and revive admiration and thirst for Sri Sri's knowledge.


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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Karna_A » 10 Jan 2009 06:48

There are 2 types of Nobel prize winners. One that increase their own prestige after winning the award and others that increase the prestige of the award itself by winning it.
Most who won are in first category. The ones in the story would have been in the 2nd category had they won.

ramana wrote:Pay attention to the boled part.

ramana wrote:op-ed Pioneer, 31 oct., 2008

Art of looking the other way

Francois Gautier

Those who select the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize suffer from selective amnesia about India and its ancient knowledge and traditions. Hence the winner is not an Indian

In a remarkable book, L'oubli de l'Inde (Amnesia of India), French philosopher and journalist Roger-Pol Droit recounts how till the 19th century Europe's admiration for Indian philosophy and spirituality was boundless, particularly in France and Germany, both terra franca of philosophical thought. He explains how, for instance, French philosopher Pierre Sonnerat had written in the 18th century: "Ancient India gave to the world its religions and philosophies: Egypt and Greece owe India their wisdom and it is known that Pythagoras went to India to study under Brahmins, who were the most enlightened of human beings."

Or how German philosophers, such as Friedrich Schlegel, have said: "There is no language in the world, even Greek, which has the clarity and the philosophical precision of Sanskrit." Nietzsche had read the Vedas, which he admired profoundly and thought that "Buddhism and Brahmanism are a hundred times deeper and more objective than Christianity".

It was not only in the realm of philosophy that Europe admired India. American mathematician A Seindenberg wrote: "Arithmetic equations were used in the observation of the triangle by the Babylonians and the theory of contraries and of inexactitude in arithmetic methods, discovered by Hindus inspired Pythagorean mathematics".

Seventeenth century French astronomer Jean-Claude Bailly had already noticed that "the Hindu astronomic systems were much more ancient than those of the Greeks or even the Egyptians and the movement of stars which was calculated by the Hindus 4,500 years ago, does not differ from those used today by even one minute".


When Nietzsche died in January 1889, the India of philosophy, of the Vedas and spirituality seemed to have disappeared with him from the consciousness of Europeans. Since then, Europe (and the United States) believe in what Droit calls "Helleno-Centrism", that all philosophical systems started with Greece and there was nothing worth the name before the Greeks. The two main culprits for this amnesia of India in Europe, thinks Pol Droit, are the British colonisers and the Christian missionaries. How could the English, they who had come to civilise the 'heathens', admit that their culture was derived from these very savages? And how could the missionaries, they who had come to bring the 'true god' to the Pagans, acknowledge that their own religion may have been influenced by the latter, as Jesus Christ is supposed to have come to India to study Hinduism and Buddhism?

What has this got to do with the Nobel Peace Prize, you may ask? Well, first, one has to understand the minds of the Nobel Peace Prize committee members: When they award prizes, they are necessarily influenced by a Christian vision of the world. For, as most Europeans, they have been brought-up in the belief that democracy and philosophy started with Greece and that a humane civilisation began with Jesus Christ. And, of course, they have a covert -- or at best unconscious -- suspicion, if not of India at least of Hindus, who for them remain Pagans, which the missionaries of yesteryears, and unfortunately those of today too, have created in the minds of many Westerners. How can they then give Peace Prize to a Hindu?

Among those Indians most nominated in the last few years is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, the founder of the Art of Living. Sri Sri is not only involved with charity in India's villages, he also promotes pesticide and fertiliser-free farming, takes orphans from Jammu & Kashmir and the North-East into his ashram, and his volunteers do relief work, both at the physical and psychological level -- whether in Bihar during the floods, in Iraq or in the US during the recent cyclone. Sri Sri is also trying to revive the ancient Vedic tradition by training young priests in a gurukul, which blends ancient knowledge with modern thought, while promoting ayurveda as the medicine of the 21st century.

There is only one problem: Sri Sri is a Hindu. In the same way the Nobel judges ignored Sri Aurobindo, India's extraordinary yogi, poet, revolutionary, and philosopher and France is yet to acknowledge that one of the great figures of the 20th century was his spiritual companion, Mira Alfassa, the 'Mother'.

Will Sri Sri ever get the Nobel then? Maybe his manifold work confuses the judges. For, if you analyse all recent Nobel Peace Prize recipients, you will see that they were crowned for their work which carries only one label.

Sri Sri is not bothered and goes on with his work. As he gains fame in the West, he helps erase the amnesia about India and revive admiration and thirst for Sri Sri's knowledge.


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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sureshm » 12 Jan 2009 00:49

The problem with a non-western view is NOT that there aren't people willing to present such views. Those who do often present ridiculous views, so ridiculous that even a non-westerner would be ashamed. Take Hindus, for instance. They keep complaining that western view is dominant, we judge ourselves through their school of thought etc. etc., but the ideas they present are so silly and outdated that they've become the laughing stock of the world.

I think Elst has written something about this. He's alleged that while westerners produce mountains of literature covering practically every area of life, Hindus like Golwakar, Gandhi etc. come up with poorly written works like Bunch of thoughts, Experiments with truth, and books which have absolutely no intellectual content, whatsoever. They're simply ramblings and nothing more. There's no vision, no intellectual analysis, nothing, simply vague, irrelevant, jingoistic stuff with zero objectivity/rationalism. No wonder western school still remains dominant, they've earned it with painstaking efforts.

Contrast this with books written by Hindus, and you'll see too much emotionalism, zero intellectualism, too much patriotism, zero rationalism, no scientific analysis of a given situation, be it economics or politics or whatever, simply vague, mystical stuff about yoga, meditation, and things that are completely irrelevant to the real world. No wonder non-western views aren't taken seriously. Unless Hindus become more realistic and materialistic, and less mystical, they're gonna be treated this way.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Eshwar » 12 Jan 2009 22:17

sureshm,

The western masters have spoken thus about Swami Vivekananda,

"I cannot touch these sayings of his, scattered as they are through the pages of this book at thirty distance, without receiving a thrill through my body like an electric shock. And what shock, what transport, must have been produced when, in burning words, they issued from the lips of the hero! "

- Romain Rolland ( French Nobel Laureate )

Hope this will help in removing ones prejudices. Or does one require more praises from the western masters to convince someone.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sureshm » 13 Jan 2009 01:05

Eshwar wrote:sureshm,

The western masters have spoken thus about Swami Vivekananda,

"I cannot touch these sayings of his, scattered as they are through the pages of this book at thirty distance, without receiving a thrill through my body like an electric shock. And what shock, what transport, must have been produced when, in burning words, they issued from the lips of the hero! "

- Romain Rolland ( French Nobel Laureate )

Hope this will help in removing ones prejudices. Or does one require more praises from the western masters to convince someone.


Agreed, but two points must be considered. People like V are few and far between. Besides, we don't have such personalities in fields other than religion, such as in politics, economics etc. Contrast this with the vast amounts of literature in the west, where they try to analyze everything under the sun from a western perspective. Whereas, in India, Hindu nationalists often come up with vague ideas on cow protection, whether or not to wear a bindi, the evils of Valentine's Day...all this makes Hindu intellectuals look like buffoons. And yet, they complain they aren't taken seriously!

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2009 01:15

This thread is not to discuss Hindu point of view only. Please take it elsewhere as you are critiquing something not in the thread topic.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sureshm » 13 Jan 2009 02:13

ramana wrote:This thread is not to discuss Hindu point of view only. Please take it elsewhere as you are critiquing something not in the thread topic.

Thanks, ramana


Non-western includes Hindu viewpoint.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2009 02:25

I have spent seven years nurturing this idea so that it has a thread of its own and dont want it destroyed. So please heed my request.
moreover I have the whine thread for complaints about other things.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2009 22:29

X-posted...
abhischekcc wrote:The actual roots of this crisis are very simple to understand - the west is addicted to "luxury without work". Or more precisely, the goods they produce are worth less than the goods they consume.

They made up the difference by issuing debt. The scam, as SS-Roy said, has been going on since the 70s. However, the (non-caucasian) world lapped up western debt because of the so called 'quality' of western institutions. Better governance equals lower risk equals lower cost of capital equals higher standard of living - or so we were told.

Now, with all the scams breaking out, especially those of rating services, we know how false the 'quality' of western institutions really is. It was all a big ponzi scheme - it had to end badly. Recall that Madoff, accused of running the 'biggest ponzi scheme' in the world is a former Nasdaq Chairman. What he was doing was essentially what the western financial system does. The west itself is the biggest ponzi scheme in the world - and it is payback time.

------------

Sometime ago, I noted that the collapse of the financial system will challenge not only the ruling financial philosophy (free market), but also democracy itself, because they are both based on the same principle - invisible hand, or the notion that private profit can produce public good. With hind sight we can now say ha bloody ha to all this, but there was a time when I really believed in this.

Imagine, the west did not last half a generation in the post soviet state.


--------------

The real big idea to watch for, going forward, will be - how much of this system will they be able to preserve. I mean, this has been a really profitable con for the west, right? If they try to create a new con (neo-con? :) ), and that too when the non-west is more powerful than it has been since the industrial revolution, it might not work.

So, the main thrust of their attempts will be to preserve as much of the system as they can. A series of western sovereign defaults is the most damaging possibility to the system. It even creates the possibility of old style protectionism, some thing I discounted just a few days ago.

------------

Another interesting possibility to watch for is the rise of religion in the west. It won't be 'Asian' religions like Hinduism or Buddhism. It will be fundamentalist Christianity and will fight neo-pagans like wicca/gaia/whatever. A severe cultural paralysis in the west now looms in the background.

These are the most interesting times in this !@#$%^&*( world.


and

Singha wrote:when the Day of the Dog dawns my friend, it will be found the western citizenry is the most heavily armed in history - us, canada, italy, spain, greece, switzerland, nordics, rural france and rural england probably have heavy gun ownership.

the militias would look to hang and burn the "culprits" whether it be Big Govt, yahudis, moslems and what not.

the Far right parties, backed by support of EJs could win big going fwd.


and


abhischekcc wrote:Singha, you should not be watching mad max type thrillers :mrgreen:

What I am trying to say is - it took nearly 3 centuries of post-renaissance for enlightenment to become the dominant religion of west. You can recognize enlightenment as liberalism. Look at all the genocidal wars in Europe during that time (accd to my definition - Hitler was a liberal :lol: )

It took all that fighting for enlightement to displace Christianity. Now enlightenment is threatened again.


At any rate, the next theater of engagement for the U.S. Army is going to be ............. drumbeats ............. Mexico. The drug war in Mexico threatens to make Mexico a failed state. And this is one war that the US cannot get out of - because the contiguous Mexican population in the two countries will ensure that the reverberations from that country will shake US society as well.

I honestly don't expect the armed US civilian militias to do anything except provide target practice opportunities for the crazies.

----------------------


my comments:

In the immediate years after the collapse of Soviet Union there were many anxious articles and papers about the future of the West. Historically the victor of an existential struggle between two powers eg Rome and Carthage, Cholas and the Srivijaya, and so on itself collapsed or got transformed within 100 ~ 150 years. So the savants were wondering what would the future be like. Many of those studies were classified.

I think the end of SU allowed the rise of Clinton and then Obama as a symbol of the changes in US society.
-------------------------
The financial collapse is most intriguing that the toxicity in the systme was introduced as a way to defeat the SU during the 1907s but those who introduced the virus forgot about it after the SU collpase as they wanted to contiune and erase the National debt.
--------
The UK with a population of ~60M has bigger bailout packages(850B Sterling) then the US which shows how shallow its eminence after WWII was.
IK Gujral was before his time when the called UK a third rate power.
---------
BTW has anyone coaught on to the transformation of the imagination of the West? The popularity of Harry Potter and LOTR genre etc. I think they are reaching deep into the pagan past as their mythology is non-existent in the post christian/post englightnement/Post modern society. A society without mythology will cease to continue.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Neela » 22 Jan 2009 23:01

Follow up to ramana's X-post

Neela wrote:
ramana wrote:my comments:


BTW has anyone coaught on to the transformation of the imagination of the West? The popularity of Harry Potter and LOTR genre etc. I think they are reaching deep into the pagan past as their mythology is non-existent in the post christian/post englightnement/Post modern society. A society without mythology will cease to continue.



Interesting point. It has always baffled me as to why the West clung on to Christianity.


In fact, that is a pan-human question. Note that even in India, all kingdoms and kings always claim that they are the lineage of some Solar or other dynasty.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby brihaspati » 22 Jan 2009 23:13

The west is a young civilization, and it has only recently managed to see what the zenith of prosperity means. This is the "saturation stage". Either you need a new driving passion, or you take the ancient Indian route - get bored with achievement and think of "something larger" something not connected to all that you have acheived, material or otherwise, something more timeless and abstract and detached that gives you a sense of greatness, over and above that what you have.

I think two things have gone wrong in the west :

(a) the political need for self delusion : their initial pre-colonial extreme poverty compared to South and east Asia, that made them break out and explore and colonize and extract capital. The corresponding need to be independent of and overcome the colonized economies, as well as shortage of skilled labour, leads to mechanization and development of exact sciences, with a great deal of contribution from borrowed and copied ideas from accumulated knowledge in the colonized countries. However memory of this early brutal exploitation, both its own populations as well as colonized ones, slave labour and slave trade, looting, and asymmetric trade, as well as the hard pursuit of knowledge and skills - have to be suppressed in modern western generations, so that the culture can get rid of its collective guilt. All the more necessary because the talents and potential of hitherto "subhumans" who needed "salvation" come close to native western populations out of necessity of shortage of skill.

But this suppression of the real roots of prosperity and power of the west, gives rise to lack of understanding of the real mechanisms of economy and power - skills, knowledge, hard work, drive, and ability to dominate militarily. So education suffers, pursuit of excellence in knowledge suffers, populations take their levels of comfort granted without upgrading effort.

(b) stemming partly from (a) and partly from the needs of imeprialism - the imposition of monotheistic, rule based belief systems. One the one hand these homogenize people and make them easier to mobilize for common purposes. On the other hand the very reason for their success, the simplification of the cognitive and decision making load on the brain, reduces the need/experience/capacity to tackle increasing complexity. Long subservience to simplified, rule based living and world view has fossilized the natural human urge to explore and face challenging ideas, and innovate, or even cope with increasing knowledge complexity. They yearn for a return to certainty, simplicity, for that would be much less taxing to the brain. This is why some take to fundamental Christianity, and others look for it in even older pre-christian motifs and roots.

To a certain extent, I do find, that what saved India is largely its insistence on maintaining complexity - in language, mathematics, music - that just keeps the collective brain sharp on the grinding stone. :)

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sanjaykumar » 22 Jan 2009 23:33

You seem to be making, in inverse, the same mistake that Western societies make- that is compare the Orissa slumdweller as representive of the non-Western world in comparasion to a nebulous virtual amalgam of cary Grant/Einstein/Albert Schweitzer as the Western prototype.



Why is it any more sensible to compare Indian classical mathematicians with the common consumption unit (ccu or western everyman)? Why not use a more appropriate comparator?

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby brihaspati » 23 Jan 2009 00:19

Why is it any more sensible to compare Indian classical mathematicians with the common consumption unit (ccu or western everyman)? Why not use a more appropriate comparator?

From the part of India I hail from, quite complicated arithmetic of the "deshi" kind used to be imparted to tiny tots in traditional rural schools - way before the age western kids are allowed to get out of their play-schools. Some of these calculatiosn were based on non-decimal arithmetic. Level for level, India will still outperform. I did not have the classical Indian mathematician in mind - and to truly compare I would have to compare them with mathematicians of the same period from the west - unfortunately I would not be able to find one, so would not think of such comparisons.

Just a pointer, slums exist in many other places than Orissa. Slums should make us all feel ashamed of ourselves, that our fellow countrymen have to live under such circumstances. Just because they are slum-dwellers, does not mean they lack intelligence, and hopefully you did not mean the "condition" as synonymous iwth "mentally challenged" - :) I have actual personal experience of leading night schools for some of these "slum dwellers" - and I have the unfortunate experience of teaching the "brightest kids" in the west, so am in quite good position to compare.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Jan 2009 00:48

The Western trailer court denizen has no interest in the slumdweller's native intelligence and sees him as only an extension of his surroundings.


I have actual personal experience of leading night schools for some of these "slum dwellers" - and I have the unfortunate experience of teaching the "brightest kids" in the west, so am in quite good position to compare.

This hints at something interesting if you care to develop it further.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby gandharva » 28 Jan 2009 03:58

Rethinking political thought in modern India (2009)

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... DE3&page=1

Description:
Prof. Balagangadhara, Dr. Jakob De Roover, Dr. Vivek Dhareshwar and Prof. G. Shivaramakrishnan discuss the future of political thought. Recorded at the Fourth Dharma & Ethics Conference (Rethinking Political Thought in Modern India, 18-19 Jan. 2009), Kuvempu University, India [Audio Rec.].

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Saral » 28 Jan 2009 08:22

gandharva wrote:Rethinking political thought in modern India (2009)

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... DE3&page=1

Description:
Prof. Balagangadhara, Dr. Jakob De Roover, Dr. Vivek Dhareshwar and Prof. G. Shivaramakrishnan discuss the future of political thought. Recorded at the Fourth Dharma & Ethics Conference (Rethinking Political Thought in Modern India, 18-19 Jan. 2009), Kuvempu University, India [Audio Rec.].


Balu has a series of 8 videos on youtube. Highly recommended.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 25 Feb 2009 11:24

Any one read the book by Jospeh Yahuda "Hebrew is Greek"? Puts the whole AIT on its head.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Sanku » 26 Feb 2009 16:13

This planet needs Hindu ethos

It's the so-called secular flabbiness of the neo-rich and subjugated colonised English-speaking elite that has taken up the place left vacant by British sergeants and colonial masters. Hate Hindu- is their new professional slogan. Anything Hindu is despicable and arrogantly dismissible. Destroy Ram Sethu, arrest Kanchi Shankaracharya on Diwali night, ignore the brutal killing of an 80-year-old monk on Krishna Janmashtami night in Kandhamal, simply delete the memory of Godhra and never answer why 59 men, women and little kids were burnt to death in a steel compartment, on February 27 seven years ago, never ever mention the 290 Hindus murdered during what is known as Gujarat riots, never discuss the forced exodus of five lakh Kashmiri Hindus after their women were raped and children killed by 'brave' Nizam-e-Mustafa' Ghazis.



Against such elements of hate, the Saffron is fighting a democratic battle through a new generation of IT-savvy saffronite youths. In the blog world, Facebook, internet battles, the Saffron is reigning high and the way we get their responses from California to Bangalore and Kolkata to Chennai via Santa Fe, it's simply bewildering and a great morale booster.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Keshav » 27 Feb 2009 07:19

Brihaspati -
My history teacher summed up European expansionism during the late Renaissance as the three Gs - God, Gold, and Glory. There was a time, literally, when the Pope in Rome took a map of the world, having never stepped out of the Vatican and drew lines on it to denote which parts of the world would be preserved for each European nation. That's how crazy it gets.

Gold is an obvious one, but resources are an entirely different matter. It's the reason the shopkeepers took absolute dominance instead of Spain who before them were well reknowned (as I'm sure you know) for their famed "Spanish Armada". Naval control of the seas provided them with rich resources, but they made one vital mistake - they got complacent.

The Spanish failed on two accounts. Once they found South and Central America, they settled down and became content with civilizing the natives in this area and moved on to great settlements, disregarding Africa and Asia.

"Necessity is the mother of all invention" is the key idea here. People don't realize just how impovershed the English were just prior to their expansion. The Spanish literally blockaded their tiny, rained out, island for years before the natives decided to fight back. In the waning days of the Armada, the English took advantage, creating lighter craft to tackle lumberous Spanish warships. Driven to poverty, hunger, and thirst, the English began their world domination through insane desperation for basic necessities. It could certainly be argued in that line.

India, on the other hand, was always a land of plenty. It had no reason to go anywhere else. In the "Distorted history.." thread, many were looking into droughts and rain levels during different parts of Indian history. It might be worth looking at those levels during the time of the Cholas and the Pandyas to explain their dominance of Southeast and East Asia.

One might argue that Hinduism stemmed vast greed in the average person but one only needs to see Indian kings to see that not everyone was so humble.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Yogi_G » 28 Feb 2009 00:20

A very sane and well written article, I must say...

India continues to be seen through Western eyes

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Neela » 28 Feb 2009 00:42

Keshav , the pope thing drawing lines is mentioned in the book, The Discoverers by Daniel Boorstin.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Rudradev » 28 Feb 2009 01:02

Keshav wrote:"Necessity is the mother of all invention" is the key idea here. People don't realize just how impovershed the English were just prior to their expansion. The Spanish literally blockaded their tiny, rained out, island for years before the natives decided to fight back. In the waning days of the Armada, the English took advantage, creating lighter craft to tackle lumberous Spanish warships. Driven to poverty, hunger, and thirst, the English began their world domination through insane desperation for basic necessities. It could certainly be argued in that line.


Actually, many people DO realize this, and it's rarely advisable to assume that one knows more than everybody else :) Nonetheless, it isn't alluded to very often, and is an important perspective to bring up in the context of this discussion. It could very well have been the momentum of a desperate drive out of isolation and impoverishment that carried the British to global superpowerdom. I have often wondered if a similar dynamic may apply to the Chinese in the 20th century.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby brihaspati » 28 Feb 2009 02:03

The British probably simply happened to be on the Atlantic sea-board at a time when Europe's demand for Asian products was not being met due to specific geo-strategic disruptions to previous trade-supply routes. The main transition takes place with the expansion of the Islamic regimes across Central Asia, Levant, Near-middle east and North Africa, between 900 -1300. A lot is made out of the drive for trade goods from the East, but we then usually overlook that such goods must have had a market in Europe, which in turn implies that Europe was producing sufficient surplus to be exchanged for such exotic and expensive imports. The final straw was perhaps the complete collapse of the Byzantines and of the Venetian League. The fall of Moorish Spain, and of Byzantines is suspected by some to have contributed to the dissemination of stored knowledge of the Islamic and Eastern Christian libraries (which were again Arab transliterations as well as Greek and Latin sources of older Classic Europe as well as the knowledge stolen by the Arabs from India or China) into the European nations. A part of this could have renewed fresh blood into navigational and geographical knowledge in European powers. The loss of control over land access to the eastern goods, could be a prompting to find alternative sea-routes, which again could have been helped by the new geographical knowledge.

All the early maritime enterprises appear to have targeted to reach India, to get exotic Indian products, which were high value products in the European markets. But then this also means that the European economies were producing sufficient surplus in a sustained manner to make such enterprises lucrative enough to risk so much. Britiain simply could have been the beneficiary of this maritime enterprise because of its position, its already bloody and ruthless unification under autocrats who again happened to be quite enterprising in boosting the economy of the country by undertaking militant expansion overseas. (Some of the technological advancements happened becuase of specific circumstances - lilke the use of iron for artillery instead of the traditional brass and puttin iron cannons on ships, etc).

The first British venture significantly was the triangular Atlantic slave trade, and the profits from this trade fuelling the initial industrialization, and capital formation, which was used to gradually take over control of the Atlantic sea-lanes and stifle the Atlantic alternative curve down around Africa to India. My take on why the British proved too strong for Indians to resist ultimately, is that almost a 1000 years of continuous extraction and export of capital away from India by Muslim regimes, and their deliberate ruining of the basic economy weakened India so much that the non-Muslim revivalist states did not have sufficient time to resusciate the economy as a whole. This weakened state had not allowed upgrading of the military hardware and capabilities, and most importantly control of the sea-lanes to India.

In the Indian Ocean, whichever power's navy controlled the western part ultimately took over India.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2009 02:11

English state consolidation happened after the debilititous Hundred years war and fall of Plantagenet/Angevin dynasties and rise of the Tudors. Their internal squabbles were settled in favor of Tudor monarchy and the population rise ~100 years after the Black Death gave them surplus manpower. Their true potential was reached once the Dutch refugees/settlers amalgamated into the English society.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Igorr » 01 Mar 2009 00:14

Yogi_G wrote:A very sane and well written article, I must say...

India continues to be seen through Western eyes
I have seen this cinema Slumdog Millionaire and must say it's really anti-Indian psyop kinda of that used against USSR. Also they try to canalize the west directed muslim agression to the Indian direction , by incitement of anti-hindutva sentiments in the Islamic world. Very poisoning film...

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Keshav » 01 Mar 2009 06:23

Igorr wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:Also they try to canalize the west directed muslim agression to the Indian direction , by incitement of anti-hindutva sentiments in the Islamic world. Very poisoning film...


I didn't know the RSS had a foothold in Moscow. The Kremlin is watching Igorr. Better be careful.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby SriKumar » 01 Mar 2009 06:40

Keshav wrote:
Igorr wrote:Also they try to canalize the west directed muslim agression to the Indian direction , by incitement of anti-hindutva sentiments in the Islamic world. Very poisoning film...
I didn't know the RSS had a foothold in Moscow.

Someone criticizes Slumdog and they get labeled RSS. :roll: What about 'art for art's sake'? Art should be open to any and all forms of criticism, should it not?

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Keshav » 01 Mar 2009 07:40

SriKumar wrote:Someone criticizes Slumdog and they get labeled RSS. :roll: What about 'art for art's sake'? Art should be open to any and all forms of criticism, should it not?


By the Gods, it was a joke. I just thought it was funny that Igorr sounded exactly the same as any person in India who would have criticized the film. Then, I pushed it a little further for comic effect. That's all. Hindus are losing their sense of humor.

I fully agree with the idea of "art for art's sake". I don't think enough people the statement seriously, though.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 01 Mar 2009 07:57

Neela wrote:Follow up to ramana's X-post

ramana wrote:my comments:


BTW has anyone coaught on to the transformation of the imagination of the West? The popularity of Harry Potter and LOTR genre etc. I think they are reaching deep into the pagan past as their mythology is non-existent in the post christian/post englightnement/Post modern society. A society without mythology will cease to continue.



Interesting point. It has always baffled me as to why the West clung on to Christianity.


In fact, that is a pan-human question. Note that even in India, all kingdoms and kings always claim that they are the lineage of some Solar or other dynasty.[/quote]


I have come to realize that modern Westerners cling to Science fiction and fantasy instead of mythology which is a pre-modern tradition.

I now realize the importance of Bollywood movies like "Krissh" and "2050" genre for they are small steps in similar vein.

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby SriKumar » 01 Mar 2009 09:34

Keshav wrote:
SriKumar wrote:Someone criticizes Slumdog and they get labeled RSS. :roll: What about 'art for art's sake'? Art should be open to any and all forms of criticism, should it not?
Hindus are losing their sense of humor.
You are pretty good with across-the-board labeling too.....as in 'Indians need to ... ' and above 'Hindus are losing...'. (unless of course, you meant the latter one in jest).

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Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Igorr » 01 Mar 2009 15:17

Keshav wrote:I didn't know the RSS had a foothold in Moscow. The Kremlin is watching Igorr. Better be careful.

Do you mean Rashtriya Svayamsevak Sangh? No, I dont think it is. But many of Russians are interested in pre-christian Russian religeon cult. As it's well known most close to Iranian Avestism and Induism. THere are many groups trying to revive these cults in Russia. Many peoples in Russia are keeping the national religeon in parallel with Abrahamit one. Ossetians, Finn and Ugric tribe in the European Russia North and Siberia etc. The Russian tradition religeon and Hinduism have common Indo-European root while Slavs are the most close to Indo-Aryan in linguistic aspect. I 'll give you a number of parallels in Russian and Sanskrit to feel the closeness. Only a note: sometimes pra-indoeuropean 'L' transformed to 'R' in sanskrit, 'n-' to 'a-', g' to 'h' or 'j', 's' to 'h'. Where Sanskrit has 'a' , Russian has 'o', 'vo' or 'e', 'ye':

Gati - Gat' (road ),
'Patha - Put' (way)
Pathika - Putnik (Putin - that of who on the way)

Ad - Ad (Hell - it's 'eating people)
Jusha - Jushka, (soup)
Ada (adana) - Eda (food)
Mansa, mas - Mjaso (meat)
Pi, pa - Pit' (drink)
Pachana - Pechen'e (cookie)
Pitu - Napitok (drink)
Pitar - Pitatel' (that who gives food)
Pitva-- Pivshij (who has drunk)
Pivan -- Polnyj (ru), Povnyj (ukr) plump

Piva - Pivo (beer)
Hirana - Zerno , granule
Roh- Ros, Rasti grow
Sola - Solenyj, salt

Bhu - Byt' be
Bhavanija - Byvanie, being
Bul - Bul'kat' gurgle
Budh Budit' to wake
Vad - Vodit' lead
Vari (water) - Varit' boil
Vah- Vozit' travel
Va - Vejat' blow
Vrit - Vertet' revolve
Lih - Lizat' lick
Paravrit - Perevernut' roll
Para - Pere (prefix)
Parada - Peredat' transfer
Bhri - Brat' take
Ish - Iskat' to seek,

Dhri - Derzhat' to take
Dri - Drat' to tear
Dra -- Udirat', run away
Tur - Turit', drive out
Tan - Tjanut' drag
Trut - Teret' rub
Tik - Tech', flow
Tras - Trjastis', shake
Sik, sich- Sochit', effuse
Svap - Spat' sleep
Da, daj- Dat' to give
Davan - Davan'e giving
Dana Dan', tribute
Dadi - Dajushij , who tributes
Udda - Otdat' , to give back
Uddal - Otdelit', to set apart
Hva, hve- Zvat' to call
Hvana - Zov, zvan'e call
Stha - Stat', stanovit'sja , to stay
Nishpad- Nispadat' , to come down
Pad - Padat' to fall
Sad - Sadit', sidet' , to plant, to sit
Upastha - Postojat' , to stand
Li - Lezhat' , to lay down
Lip - Lepit', to model
Lup - Lupit', to beat
Lepa - Lepka, modeling
Lap - Lopotat', babble

Tap - Teplit', utepljat', to warm
Tapa(s) - Teplota, warm
Hlad - Holodit', to cold
Hladaka - Hlad, holod, cool
Plavana - Plavanie swiming
Plush ---- Pleskat' splash
Paraplavate - Pereplyvat', to cross river or something water
Kupaka -- Kopanka, pond
Kup - Kopat' to dig
Siv - Shit', sshivat' to sew
Chhup - Shchupat' , to touch, to feel by touch
Krish - Kroshit' to crumb
Shush - Sushit' to dry
Shushka - Sushka drying
Much - Mochit' to wet
Mok - Moknut' to get wet
Duh to suck - Dudit', to play the pipe
Dhu - Dut', razduvat' to blow up
Pad - Padat' to fall
Nud- Nudit'
Utchal - Otchalivat', to move off

Rush - Rushit' husk
Grabh- Grabit' rob
Kshi - Kysh! to send away
Ghna to beat - Gnat', to expell
Gan - Gonoshit' save up
Dzhnu- Gnut' bend
Hri, hra - Hranit', to hide
Chi- Chinit', uchinjat' to make

Utkrita - Otkryta is open
Utkri - Otkryt', vskryt' to open
Kri - Kryt', kroit' to cover, to shape
Klrip - Krepit' strenghten
Vartana- Vorot, povorot turn
Stambh, stabh- Stolb , column
Vara fence - Varok fence for cattle
Kila- Klin, kol, chock
Khila - Kol, perch
Sphiya - Soha plow
Kucha - Kucha hill heap
Val - Val swell
Vali- Valik little swell
Dvar - Dver' door
Dam -- Dom house
Shala - Shalash, cover, hower
Kanduka - Kadka pail
Pach - Pech' bake
Dhuma-- Dym fume
Dagdha - Degot' oil tar
Mekshana - Meshalka blender
Uta - Utok woof
Gharma - Zhar warmth
Vish - Ves' hamlet
Sthana - Stan, stojanka stay
Stha- Stojat' to stay

Nagna - Nagoj nude
Bhadra - Bodryj buoyant
Tanuka - Tonkij thin
Tunga - Tugoj tight
Laghu - Legkij light
Liptaka - Lipkij sticky
Kruncha - Kruchennyj spun
Krunch - Krjuchit', to bend to spin
Kurcha curl - Kurchavyj curly
Juna - Junyj yung
Nava - Novyj new
Navina - Novina news
Shajja - Sijanie shine
Vranin - Ranenyj wounded
Rana - Bran' battle
Vrana - Rana wound
Tomo - Temno darkness
Suha - Suho dryiness
Shveta - Svetlyj bright
Drava - Derevo, drova, tree wood
Valika - Valik roll
Stupa - Stupa mortar
Phena - Pena foam
Prapiti - Propit' drink away
Madhu - Med honey
Chashaka - Chashka cap
Chula - Chulan cupboard
Nit'ja - Nit' thread
Dara - Dyra, hole
Drika - Dyrka, hole
Kosha - Koshel' burse
Mashaka - Meshok bag
Ambaradzhami I'm save up - Ambar barn
Vrika - Volk wolf
Udra - Vydra otter
Hansa - Gus' goose
Kur - Kuritsa hen
Kulika - Kulik sandpiper
Mushka - Myshka mouse
Avika - Ovca ship
Psa - Pes dog
Jadzhna sacrifice - Jagnja, lamb
Dzhal - Zhalo dart
Shira - Shilo awl
Mesha - Meh, fur
Pash - Pasti to graze
Rava(rav) - Rev roar

Bhurana - Brov' brow
Vala(valin) - Volos hair
Gala - Gorlo throat
Hrid - Grud' chest
Krika throat - Krik, cry
Kulaka - Kulak fist
Kesha - Kosa lock of hair
Griva - Griva, zagrivok mane scruff
Murti, murdhan- Morda phisiognomy
Nakha - Nogot' nail
Aksha - Oko , oculus
Hridaja - Serdce, cor
Ostha - Usta, mouth

Sampadana - Sovpadenie coincidence
Bhri - Bereginja - to nurse, nurse
Shishumara - Kikimora, shishimora hobgoblin
Moksha - Makosh', Mokosh-diva, Mokasha a goddess of Eastern slavs
Khala sun - Hors , the god of Sun

Jaga, jadzhna sacrifice - Baba-Jaga, woman taking part in sacrifice

Abhimana, cheat – Obman deceit
Abhra, centr – Oblast' , region
Abhasa – Obraz image
Aaprashch – Proshchat'sja to tell good buy
Aapad, – beda misfortune
Abhram – Oblako cloud
Abh'jasena, praxis – Ob'jasnenie explanation

Aval, turn – Oval oval
Avalok, attention – Uvlechenie interest
Avahita, attentive – Uvazhitel'nyj attentive valid
Avesh'ja, is fixing – Ovesh'estvl'aja by objectifying
Avid'ja – Nevedenie ignorance

- As you could see, Russian is much closer to Indic languages then English or any other European language groop (with exepting may be Lithuanian). So our interest in antique Indian civilisation is stemed from the certain culture proximity.

Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2400
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby Yogi_G » 01 Mar 2009 20:02

I have been in a war of words with my colleagues...Most of them are positively inclined towards this film and in some cases even very proud of it. I question the motive behind the movie and I am branded as contrarian and Hindutvavaadi. The common question is "then why are you here in US then?" :rotfl:

Though my colleagues are extremely intellectual, eclectic and well-meaning, you just cant miss the effect of colonial hangover, the need to be recognized by the west...

Personally I feel that every "influenced" culture has a critical mass. Influenced as in Christian Europe or Islamic Iran, critical mass as in events world-wide and unravelling of some skeletons in closet for the "influencing" culture. Here in India we are extremely influenced by the West (British to be specific) and the Abrahammic religions, given the world-wide debate currently on, further fueled by the info on the internet, the pride for the Indian culture is only increasing. Similar is the trend in Greece where the original Greek religion is making inroads and also in Russia as Igorr has mentioned....

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby brihaspati » 02 Mar 2009 01:04

Yogi_Gji,
ask your colleagues about what they think of the US society's various "liberal" social practices, and how far they would themselves participate in such practices. What about their own expectations from their spouses? I see this all the time, and I cut myself off from expat Indian society a decade ago - simply because I got tired of hearing how "bad" the "whites" are in social norms - how Indian women appear best in traditional Indian clothes on ceremonial gatherings, etc., while at the same time lambasting the Indic itself for every reported "dismal" picture of Indian society represented in the western media.

I would hazard a guess - you are among colleagues who intensively studied for engineering or sciences, their parents ensuring that their whole life revolved around doing well in exams and going abroad, almost as if the home country was a leper which had to be left at the earliest opportunity. They were never forced to or their interests encouraged to know about the real history and culture of their country, never encouraged to query and investigate independent of dogma fed by school as to how things came to be as they appear to be, never really forced to interact with society at large and across social hierarchies, never worked in large social or political organizations that cut across social boundaries. They are simply "lost" Indian souls who never realize that they are lost.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53880
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Non-Western Worldview

Postby ramana » 02 Mar 2009 01:07

Yogi_G and brihaspatiji, A gentle reminder. This thread is the Indic looking at the West and not at the Indic. So please be restrained in this thread. Thanks, ramana


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