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India-Australia News and Discussion

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India-Australia News and Discussion

Postby SureshP » 15 Mar 2008 20:23

PM under China's spell

By Piers Akerman

March 16, 2008 12:00am

IN an attempt to divert attention from its lack of realistic policy initiatives, the Rudd government recently attacked National Party MP Mark Vaile and Liberal MP Wilson Tuckey for absenting themselves from Parliament and picking up a few bucks in the process.

Vaile went overseas at his own expense to help an Australian company develop markets in the Middle East; Wilson went on a lecture cruise.

There is zero evidence that either broke any parliamentary rules or was unduly influenced by their experiences.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, however, has been in and out of China - courtesy of a number of Chinese organisations - ever since he was elected to Parliament, and has earned more than $100,000 for his efforts.

Treasurer Wayne Swan and Agriculture Minister Tony Burke also had their travel to China bankrolled by a Chinese company while in Opposition.

Maxine McKew, the former ABC star who became Labor's iconic Bennelong candidate, was also greatly assisted by the Chinese during her campaign.

Chinese consul Chen Hao Qi attended an open day at the Chinese Government-supported Feng-Hua, at which Rudd's daughter Jessica and her husband, Albert Tse, made a celebrity appearance.

Mandarin-speaking Rudd's obsession with China is well known, and the Chinese press fondly refers to him as Lu Kewen.

What has largely gone under the radar, however, is the extent to which Rudd has shifted Australian policy in favour of China at the expense of India.

As the Chinese news agency Xinhua wrote on February 5, Australia pulled out of joint strategic dialogues with the US, Japan and India after Foreign Minister Stephen Smith met Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi in Canberra.


"One of the things that caused China concern last year was a meeting of that strategic dialogue,'' Smith said.

But the decision to bolster a relationship with the greatest authoritarian power in the world, a nation that has little respect for human rights such as freedom of speech, and that still bans private citizens from receiving satellite television broadcasts and monitors Internet exchanges, at the expense of a long-standing friendship with India - a nation that shares with Australia a common language and a history of common law - has deeply upset the Indian Government.

Dr Bhartendu Kumar Singh, a distinguished commentator with the Indian Defence Accounts Service, says the decision to pull out of the quadrilateral initiative demonstrates Australia's "diplomatic immaturity''.

Former prime minister John Howard was pressed by Chinese president Hu Jintao to reject the arrangement, according to Dr Singh, but "the Howard government was pragmatic enough to resist China's demands''.

Rudd, it appears, was not - and he also reversed the Howard government's decision to sell uranium to India.

On February 22, he told the ABC his view was "how to unfold a future relationship with China ... in a whole range of areas, and become genuine partners with China in the course of the 21st century ... us working with China ... working with the Chinese on some of our common challenges with the wider Asia-Pacific region, including the south Pacific.''

Rudd belatedly attempted to justify the decision to drop India from the quadrilateral arrangement by saying he didn't think "our friends in New Delhi particularly welcome that (the arrangement) as well''.

But a number of prominent and influential Indians immediately expressed the view that China made a suggestion and Australia caved in to its demands to dump the strategic dialogue with India, the US and Japan.

"This means China is able to flex its muscles by using soft power to break coalitions,'' Abanti Bhattacharya, an associate fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, said.

"It's an indication of China's crafty policy of embedding power concepts in its soft power statesmanship ... it's a clear sign Australia and China are cosying up.

"(Under Kevin Rudd) it's more attractive for Australia to align with China than with India.''

Another expert, retired major-general Ashok Mehta, agreed with this assessment.

"This is a complete U-turn,'' he said. "It's a completely maverick move. They (Australia) won't give us uranium, and now we are out of the dialogue.''

According to Mehta, bilateral ties, particularly in the defence sphere, "will certainly not be as they were (with the previous government). That's what happens when China raises its eyebrows.''

Writing in The Asian Age, foreign affairs expert Brahma Chellaney said Rudd had no qualms about selling uranium to China but would not export to India, even though the latter is accepting what the former will not brook: stringent, internationally verifiable safeguards against diversion of material to weapons use.

"Whereas in China the civilian and military nuclear programs overlap, India has, under the nuclear deal with the US, announced a watertight segregation of its civil and military parts.

"For Washington, the deal indeed has been a means to try and build, in the words of Australian analyst Robert Ayson, 'a de facto NPT around India,' with the Howard government conditioning exports to New Delhi's implementation of the various elements of the Indo-US deal.

"By contrast, exports to China will carry 'zero real controls', as The Australian Financial Review put it.

"Yet the Rudd government has reversed policy on India while displaying the same zealousness as its predecessor to sell uranium ore to China.

"Canberra has turned a blind eye to the fact that, in contrast to New Delhi's squeaky-clean record in not proliferating nuclear technology to other states, Beijing has long played proliferation as a strategic card, with US intelligence identifying it as the 'most significant supplier' of items and technology related to weapons of mass destruction.''

As the various ongoing funding scandals reveal, Labor has debts everywhere.

Kevin Rudd should tell us what sort of a debt he thinks we owe China, and why we are neglecting a democratic friend to pander to a totalitarian state.

Write your Comments here



Daily Telegraph Australia

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Postby Rahul M » 15 Mar 2008 20:37


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Postby Karan Dixit » 16 Mar 2008 02:54

I did not know where else to post it, so here it is:
Protests as 400 kangaroos face slaughter
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiap ... index.html

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Postby Nayak » 16 Mar 2008 18:52

Downer denied Indian scientists visas


Richard Baker and Sarah Smiles
March 17, 2008

TWO Indian nuclear officials were last year barred from Australia on "health and character" grounds and for fear they would learn information to assist "India's weapons of mass destruction program", documents reveal.

The documents show that former foreign affairs minister Alexander Downer refused visas for the Indian Department of Atomic Energy scientists in April, at the same time that his department was negotiating the sale of uranium to India, which is not a signatory to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

The barring of the Indian officials is revealed in documents held by a high-tech Melbourne company involved in a longstanding dispute with the Commonwealth over the export of its equipment, which federal officials claim can be used in nuclear weapons programs.

In a letter to GBC, the Immigration Department — which refused to divulge its reasons for denying visas to Indian officials Dipankar Mukherjee and Mohd Afzal — stressed the importance of applicants meeting "Australia's health and character standards".

"As part of visa processing, various checks must be undertaken prior to visa grant. This includes mandatory health checks, character and security checking … for privacy reasons, I am unable to discuss the reasons why Mr Mukherjee and Mr Afzal's visa applications were refused," wrote the department's acting assistant secretary, Michael Clisby.

Another letter written on Mr Downer's behalf by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade's assistant secretary for arms control and counter proliferation, John Sullivan, argued that the Indian scientists worked for an organisation that played "a leading role in India's nuclear weapons research".

"Knowledge the individuals could acquire in Australia could be of assistance to India's WMD program," Mr Sullivan wrote.:roll: :roll: :roll:



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Postby Gerard » 16 Mar 2008 21:26

Knowledge the individuals could acquire in Australia could be of assistance to India's WMD program," Mr Sullivan wrote

:rotfl:

Australia being a great repository of knowledge on nuclear weaponry...

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Postby Gerard » 17 Mar 2008 06:26


Raju

Aust: unmarried women now outnumber married women

Postby Raju » 18 Mar 2008 14:11

Aust: unmarried women now outnumber married women


Australia's "freemale" future

March 12, 2008 - 2:16PM

Researchers have found that unmarried women now outnumber married women for the first time since World War I.

The Mosaic 2008 analysis reveals 51.4 per cent of women are opting for the singles lifestyle in a new phenomenon billed as "Bridget Jones meets Sex and the City".

The survey also estimates that up to a quarter of women will never have children, while SPUDs account for more than 25 per cent of all dwellings in Australia - a figure that's expected to soar over the next 30 years.
...

Africa, India, Indonesia, Singapore and China are the fastest-growing sources of immigrants;


link

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Postby Sanjay M » 19 Mar 2008 09:43

Here's a piece on Rudd & Co:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/s ... 30,00.html

Chinese consul Chen Hao Qi attended an open day at the Chinese Government-supported Feng-Hua, at which Rudd's daughter Jessica and her husband, Albert Tse, made a celebrity appearance.

Mandarin-speaking Rudd's obsession with China is well known, and the Chinese press fondly refers to him as Lu Kewen.

What has largely gone under the radar, however, is the extent to which Rudd has shifted Australian policy in favour of China at the expense of India.


http://news.smh.com.au/rudd-brushes-off ... -1zr4.html
Last edited by Sanjay M on 19 Mar 2008 09:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby svinayak » 19 Mar 2008 09:45

Why does it have to be India or China.

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Postby Sanjay M » 19 Mar 2008 09:54


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Postby Sanjay M » 19 Mar 2008 10:29


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Postby Gerard » 24 Mar 2008 22:21

Rip arm off Asia, says expert
THE Australian Defence Force might need to be structured with advanced capabilities to allow it to "rip the arm off" any threatening Asian power
That could include up to 400 advanced combat aircraft, 30 submarines, missile defence and an ability to conduct cyber-attack.
The study's author, Ross Babbage, said Australia would need to learn to walk among the giants: Indonesia, China and India - all with immensely larger populations, economies and military forces. Some of the giants "may not be friendly", he said.
the flexible deterrent option, the ability to deter and - if needed - cripple an Asian giant which sought to coerce or strike at vital Australian interests.

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Postby Gerard » 24 Mar 2008 22:48

ADF may need 'arm ripping' capability
Professor Babbage, a former senior defence official and now member of the panel to advise Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon on the white paper, said Australia's most pervasive challenge was likely to be the rise of major Asian powers.
The Australian Defence Force (ADF) of the future may need advanced capabilities to allow it to "rip the arm off" any threatening Asian power, a new paper says.

That could include up to 400 advanced combat aircraft, 30 submarines, ballistic missile defence and an ability to conduct cyber-attack.

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Postby ramana » 24 Mar 2008 22:55

So the convicts are developing an Afrikaanar mentality. They feel isolated among the heathen Asians!

Speech by Joel Fitzgibbon Minister for Defense

March 18 2008

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Postby Prem » 24 Mar 2008 23:03

ramana wrote:So the convicts are developing an Afrikaanar mentality. They feel isolated among the heathen Asians!


How can they ripp the arm off unless they develop the BUM? LIke Afrikaanar ,thier way oif life will end soon.

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Postby ramana » 24 Mar 2008 23:07

Prem, Thats why I made the ref to the Afrikaaners. So it means there is a bomb in the basement coming up soon. The early UK tests were in Australia with the idea that they would get some benefit. Then the ANZUS was formed and foreclosed that. Lets see what else Babage blutters.

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Postby Rye » 24 Mar 2008 23:11

Prem wrote:
How can they ripp the arm off unless they develop the BUM? LIke Afrikaanar ,thier way oif life will end soon.


The sub-text really is that the cabal that runs the "non proliferation" racket will allow Australia to develop nuclear weapons in violation of the NPT. Why? In the article, the Australians have not even asked the question as to how they can have a nuke military program if they are signed up to the NPT, which is highly fishy, considering the racket they create about India's nukes when India has not signed up yet.

This about tells us the value of the NPT in the eyes of the NNWS like Australia right now.

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Postby Gerard » 25 Mar 2008 00:35

Professor Babbage said an alternative was the flexible deterrent option, the ability to deter and - if needed - cripple an Asian giant which sought to coerce or strike at vital Australian interests.


From 2003
N. Korean threat concerns Canberra; Experts say nuclear pressures could prompt rethink
North Korea's growing nuclear ambitions threaten to force Australia to re-evaluate its commitment never to develop nuclear weapons. Ross Babbage, chief of strategic and defense studies at the Australian National University, said that if Japan decided to pursue nuclear weapons as a shield against North Korea, other Southeast Asian countries might follow suit, sparking an arms race in the region.


Isotopes and Identity: Australia and the Nuclear Weapons Option, 1949-1999
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/vol07/71/hym71.pdf

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Postby Prem » 25 Mar 2008 02:16

1998 has really changed the paradigm . They are being Exorcised, going through trauma of rising Azia. Fact remains Aussies are Lassies, they will have to be content with leash as they cant be masters. Bum in the basement,30 Subs etc is bluff which can be easilly called by any real power.

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Postby Gerard » 25 Mar 2008 02:43

Billions of dollars for Australian submarine upgrade
Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said he had ordered the planning of a new generation of submarines to replace the Collins fleet.
Prof Ross Babbage, chairman of the Kokoda Foundation, said Australia needed new submarines to counter economic and political expansion in countries including China, Indonesia, Korea and India.

"We're talking about a new paradigm for Australian security. We summarise it as 'learning to walk amongst giants'," he said.

"The reality is we can't close our eyes to the fact there are some big changes taking place. They are becoming very big powers."

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Postby Gerard » 26 Mar 2008 08:47


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Postby Gerard » 26 Mar 2008 08:53


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Postby Johann » 26 Mar 2008 19:55

Gerard wrote:ADF may need 'arm ripping' capabilityQuote:
Professor Babbage, a former senior defence official and now member of the panel to advise Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon on the white paper, said Australia's most pervasive challenge was likely to be the rise of major Asian powers.
Quote:
The Australian Defence Force (ADF) of the future may need advanced capabilities to allow it to "rip the arm off" any threatening Asian power, a new paper says.

That could include up to 400 advanced combat aircraft, 30 submarines, ballistic missile defence and an ability to conduct cyber-attack.


The Australians have been worried about isolation and survival ever since 1942, when the Japanese were on the doorstep, poised to invade.

McArthur established his HQ in Australia, and with American troops and weapons coming across the Pacific (California-Hawaii-Tahiti-NZ/Aus), the tide was turned.

They've relied on the US alliance ever since as the ultimate fallback.

The real subtext is the gradual loss of confidance in the alliance with America.

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Postby Hitesh » 26 Mar 2008 21:05

Johann wrote:
The Australians have been worried about isolation and survival ever since 1942, when the Japanese were on the doorstep, poised to invade.

McArthur established his HQ in Australia, and with American troops and weapons coming across the Pacific (California-Hawaii-Tahiti-NZ/Aus), the tide was turned.

They've relied on the US alliance ever since as the ultimate fallback.

The real subtext is the gradual loss of confidance in the alliance with America.


Well they need to be more friendly with the other nations in the IOR and in SouthEast Asia but so far except for China, they keep poking eyes in those nations. How do these blokes expect those nations to be friendly to Australia?

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Postby Johann » 26 Mar 2008 22:02

The ultimate fear of conservatives in Australia is that Indonesia with it's growing population will inevitably seek 'lebensraum' in Australia.

They also believe that their position in the regional security architecture of SE Asia, specifically its regional military partnership with Singapore, the US (both of whom have strong ties to Indonesia) and Malaysia have kept the Indonesian threat in check so far.

But what is happening is that India is gradually displacing Australia in SE Asian security. Singapore, Malaysia and the US are working with India regionally. The Australians have not yet resigned themselves to this change.

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Postby Kalantak » 27 Mar 2008 17:23

Aussie author on mission to popularise science through stories

Thu, Mar 27 02:54 PM

Annie Samson New Delhi, Mar 27 (PTI) A chicken, whose head was chopped off managed to survive for a year and a half without a head!
Tough to believe but scientifically quite possible, explains Australian author Dr Karl Kruszselnicki. Learning science can be made fun if the concepts are couched in a story, he says.

"I tell an interesting story and sneak a science fact in between. It sustains interest as well as gives knowledge," says the science buff who hosts a TV show on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

Kruszselnicki, who was on an India tour recently, is known in Australia as a science commentator who "enthuses people with the awe and wonder of science" through his programmes on radio and television and columns in newspapers. The author-cum-commentator frequently refers to a story of a chicken called Mike who was a sensation for two years in the US city of Colorado.

Known as 'Mike the Headless Chicken' the rooster was owned by a farmer who chopped off as little of its neck because he wanted to leave as much of the tasty neck as possible. Scientists explained that Mike had enough of a brain stem left to live without a head.

"The story about the headless chicken never fails to arrest listeners and people learn a little bit of anatomy along the way," says the author who advocates teaching concepts of science though a series of stories and narratives.

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Postby Gerard » 29 Mar 2008 07:40

Confident middleweight: a realistic start to Rudd's round
India left out

The relationship with China needs to be balanced against the relationship with India.

It is disappointing that Rudd did not include India as part of this visit. The cancellation of the sale of uranium to India, the Haneef affair and the nonsense that marked the recent test series between India and Australia, together with the obvious favour with which Rudd regards China, underlined by recent revelations that as Opposition Leader he made a number of Chinese funded visits to China and other parts of the world, have left the Indian's disappointed with the state of the relationship.

They should not be left in that state because the relationship is very important to Australia. Hopefully Rudd will visit India later in the year. He has privately indicated as much.

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Postby sanjaykumar » 29 Mar 2008 07:54

The ultimate fear of conservatives in Australia is that Indonesia with it's growing population will inevitably seek 'lebensraum' in Australia.

Yes

Australia is begining to realise that it is not an organic part of Asia but not so isolated as they are presumed. An Australian I met was recently genuinely pleased with the recent stability shown by Indonesia for this reason. But in the long run I believe China and India will renegotiate Australian destiny.I do not believe either India or China would be accepting of any Indonesian lebesraum.

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Postby Sanjay M » 29 Mar 2008 08:28

I think India is better off siding with Indonesia against Chinese lebensraum, of which we would be the victims.

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Postby Johann » 29 Mar 2008 10:22

sanjaykumar wrote:I do not believe either India or China would be accepting of any Indonesian lebesraum.


The Australians have not spent enough time really talking to India to truly understand that; in the meanwhile, as American priorities shift the Australians are thinking about what kind of military posture would be needed to

a) avoid displacement by India in the SE Asian security architecture
b) in a worst case scenario deter Indonesia acting with the support of "a major Asian power".

Internally the Australians are focussing on encouraging immigration and assimilation. Theyre doing their best to fill up the country. The difference from previous eras is that they no longer think white immigration is the only way to go.

However assimilation is still a major goal; the strong public reaction to problems with a relatively small Muslim minority is a reflection of the insecurity felt over largely Muslim Indonesia.

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Postby svinayak » 29 Mar 2008 10:33

It is refreshing that Rudd is in favour of and will lobby for permanent Security Council seats for India and Japan.
A very good start!!

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Re: Aust: unmarried women now outnumber married women

Postby Karan Dixit » 29 Mar 2008 10:41

Raju wrote:Aust: unmarried women now outnumber married women


Australia and China have striking number of similarities.

In China unmarried men outnumber married men. In Australia, unmarried women outnumber married women.

China has Tibetans to kick to the ground. Australia has Aboriginies to kick to the ground.

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Postby Gerard » 31 Mar 2008 19:22


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Postby Gerard » 31 Mar 2008 20:30


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Postby ramana » 02 Apr 2008 04:00

Australia's loss of innocence was at Gallipoli in WWI when they lost a lot of soldiers for a silly British adventure. The British loss in Far East further increased their anxiety. They have a couple of alliances with US to make up for this. And they cozied up to PRC and have some hangup with India. They also setup the ISI for the TSP. Yes it was augmented by US but the initial setup was by an Ozzie general Cawthorn after 1947.

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Postby Pete » 02 Apr 2008 04:31



I'm under the impression that the India US Nuclear deal has not yet been accepted by (and may not be passed by) the Indian Parliament http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Pol ... 915507.cms.

Once this occurs Australia would no doubt be more willing to review the uranium export ban to India.

Australia made the uranium export offer on the coat-tails of the US initiative (truth to tell). If significant sections of the Indian Parliament are maintaining an extreme leftwing anti US stance (blocking the US deal) then goodwill for future Australian uranium is a non-starter.

Meanwhile I consider (and admit) that the selling of uranium to Russia and China at low-low prices is more like political tribute than a hardheaded economic judgement.

Pete

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Postby Rye » 02 Apr 2008 05:02

Pete wrote:
the selling of uranium to Russia and China at low-low prices is more like political tribute than a hardheaded economic judgement.


Pete,

Does that mean that Australia will not consider such "political tributes" to countries like India unless and until India begins to maintain an overtly threatening pose like China/Russia?

"There is no need to be nice to goody-two-shoe countries that are not likely to hurt australia" seems to be the reasoning behind the Australian POV about India. Clearly, it cannot be because Russia and China have a better non-proliferation record than India.

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Postby rachel » 02 Apr 2008 06:32

Rye wrote:Pete wrote:
the selling of uranium to Russia and China at low-low prices is more like political tribute than a hardheaded economic judgement.


Pete,

Does that mean that Australia will not consider such "political tributes" to countries like India unless and until India begins to maintain an overtly threatening pose like China/Russia?

"There is no need to be nice to goody-two-shoe countries that are not likely to hurt australia" seems to be the reasoning behind the Australian POV about India. Clearly, it cannot be because Russia and China have a better non-proliferation record than India.


Uh, but of course that is the case. That's not just the rule for Australia, that's the rule of the world and human nature.

Might is right. Isnt that obvious to any 5th grader who's interacted with classmates on a playground? No need for MAster's degree in geopolictics to figure that one out...just good ol common sense.

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Postby Rye » 02 Apr 2008 06:40

rachel wrote:
it is just common sense


While that may or may not be true, it does not hurt to ask instead of assuming. It is possible (to put it mildly) that there is a legitimate rationale from the Oz point of view, regardless of the validity of Oz assumptions/worldview from the Indian POV.
Last edited by Rye on 02 Apr 2008 07:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Gerard » 02 Apr 2008 07:19



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