Nepal and Bhutan News and discussion

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 13:20

Sanku wrote:
Anantz wrote: Finally, as mentioned by people on this forum before, stop connecting the Gorkhaland movement in India which is an internal demand raised by Indian citizens within India, to something happening in a foreign land. The both are not related, except by people trying to defame the Gorkhaland movement.
Well said Anant. Also what are your views on bringing Nepal into india with/or without an article 370 like charter?

Well I must admit that the sentiment of the people in Nepal is fiercely anti-Indian, it is similar to views shared by Indian Nepali/Gurkhas who are quite Anti-Nepal! In such circumstances contemplating bringing Nepal to India would be suicidal, it would be something much worse than the Kashmir insurgency we are facing. It would be better to leave Nepal as an independent country and use some of the good will we have left and the rich cultural and historical ties we enjoy, which are unmatched by China to keep Nepal closer to India as much as possible. Let them sort out their own mess, and help them where we can to build a good friendship. I guess only tactful diplomacy can solve this mess up in Nepal!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 13:32

Anantz wrote:Well I must admit that the sentiment of the people in Nepal is fiercely anti-Indian,

Well there is no Paki border so any "insurgency" wont be fierce, anyway one more question for you since you have kindly responded -- what conditions in Nepal do you think would change the sentiments of people in Nepal to a level where they feel may haps its better from them to troth their future with India's more directly?

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 06 May 2009 14:01

1. Changing the 'ground' sentiment in Nepal will not be easy or quick.
2. More importantly, the paki like "sticking it up to yevil yindia" behavior is pervasive in the subcontinent. So, no matter how much of good you do to them, rather than the gratitude, the paki-ness will inevitably show up.
3. Nepal is hugely dependent on India & even if it tries to suck up to PRC, Nepal cannot stop dealing with us.

India has done enough already to win the hearts & minds in our neighbourhood, but likethey also say, when you grab 'em by the b@lls, their hearts & minds will follow. So, IMHO, the best option for India is to really take up the yevil yindia role & show it to these upstarts what it really means to be yevil. True, intl. community will howl, panda will get worked up, but the hearts & minds of the neighbourhood will surely be firmly in our grasp.

Nepal needs India for sea access, trade, air access. They are dependent on supplies from India.
I am sure, that there is no better a negotiating tool than having the other party hungry & cold at the table, while you lay out the choicest of feasts laid out in front of them, but just out of reach.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 May 2009 14:13

Sanku wrote:
Anantz wrote:Well I must admit that the sentiment of the people in Nepal is fiercely anti-Indian,
Well there is no Paki border so any "insurgency" wont be fierce, anyway one more question for you since you have kindly responded -- what conditions in Nepal do you think would change the sentiments of people in Nepal to a level where they feel may haps its better from them to troth their future with India's more directly?

bangladeshi border is from where the pakis will fuel the insurgency.

The Indian and the nepali maoists will openly hook up and the red corridor will extend to china with convinient supply lines originating there.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 14:31

chetak wrote:The Indian and the nepali maoists will openly hook up and the red corridor will extend to china with convinient supply lines originating there.

Well there is no reason they cant do that even now if they could or wanted. India and Nepal getting married wont be such a big thing to happen for this.

After all Ram and Sita must wed, right!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 14:34

derkonig wrote: but likethey also say, when you grab 'em by the b@lls, their hearts & minds will follow. So, IMHO, the best option for India is to really take up the yevil yindia role & show it to these upstarts what it really means to be yevil.

I am personally all for this approach. Just make sure that Nepalese are clamoring for IA to come and rescues them from the mayhem before we send the army in, and this time when the king/Prez offers to merge with India there will be no JLN to throw spanner in the works quoting "log kya khenge". (and hopefully no JLN wannabes either)

----

A penny just dropped -- "log kya khenge" seems to be the fav strat of SOS anti-India crowd seems like.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 May 2009 15:15

Video bares Prachanda trick

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090506/j ... 923374.jsp#

J. HEMANTH

Prachanda
Kathmandu, May 5: A year-old video clip that shows Prachanda bragging has surfaced in Nepal, its contents lending credence to India’s fears that the Maoists wanted to pack their country’s army with loyalists.

A TV channel today beamed footage of Prachanda, who quit as Nepal Prime Minister yesterday, saying how his guerrillas would “easily dominate” the other soldiers once they were inducted into the Nepal army.

Prachanda also describes how he had misled UN peace monitors with inflated figures about the strength of the Maoist guerrilla wing, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), to try and get as many rebels into the army as possible.

The private Image Channel said the video was a recording of Prachanda’s address to PLA commanders and combatants at Shatikhor cantonment in Chitwan on January 2 last year — four months before he took over as Prime Minister.

“We all know that the real strength of the PLA is between 7,000 and 8,000. We had to give the figure of 35,000 to increase our numbers in the camps,” Prachanda says in the video.

The false information was apparently given to UN officials verifying PLA combatants before housing them in UN-monitored camps to await absorption into the army. India had been against a quick induction, fearing it would hand the Maoists full control of the army.

In the tape, Prachanda claims the integration of even a small number of PLA combatants into the army would be enough. “Our soldiers are politically awakened and they will easily dominate those who take part merely in ceremonial parades (ordinary officers and soldiers),” he says. “It’s no surprise that the Nepal army chief, Rukmagat Katuwal, is opposed to the integration process.”

This opposition led Prachanda to fire Katuwal on Sunday and then tender his own resignation a day later after the President overruled the sacking. Prachanda left with an oblique barb at India’s perceived pro-Katuwal stand.

Senior Maoist leader Mohan Baidya “Kiran” said the tape was genuine but claimed it merely reflected the Maoist strategy two years ago. “Now the situation has changed.”

UN officials had disqualified nearly 17,000 of the 35,000 rebels presented before them. The army has about 90,000 personnel, including officers.

President Ram Baran Yadav today asked all the 25 parties in parliament to form a new government by Saturday. Leaders of 23 parties met today and decided the next government should be led by the communist CPN(UML) but the Maoists boycotted the meeting.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 May 2009 15:18

Prachanda's worst nightmare comes true

http://www.samaylive.com/news/prachanda ... 24369.html

Tags: By Sudeshna Sarkar Kathmandu

Published by: Noor Khan
Published: Wed, 06 May 2009 at 13:58 IST

By Sudeshna Sarkar
Kathmandu: The very danger that Nepal's first Maoist Prime Minister Pushpa Kamal Dahal Prachanda had feared one year ago has now come true to plague him and his party.

Last July, when a newly-republic Nepal held its first election to choose a president, Prachanda had an easy choice and a difficult one.

The two biggest parties after the Maoists - the Nepali Congress (NC) and Communist Party of Nepal-Unified Marxist Leninist (UML) - both offered to support him as prime minister if in return he backed their candidates for presidency.

Had Prachanda rooted for NC chief Girija Prasad Koirala, he would have got the support of the party as well as that of India, which backed Koirala. He could have also voted for UML leader Madhav Kumar Nepal and roped in the third-largest party as a strong ally.

Instead, Prachanda chose the difficult option: to field his own candidate, septuagenarian Ram Raja Prasad Singh, as he feared the formation of a parallel centre of power if either Koirala or Nepal won. Predictably, Singh lost and with it, Prachanda lost the support of two crucial allies.

To add to his misgivings, the slighted NC got its revenge by fielding a second candidate, Ram Baran Yadav, who won, and awaited the day he could pay Prachanda back.

Why did Prachanda fear a parallel centre of power? As today's developments indicate, even as early as July, just after winning the election, he and his party men were plotting a complete takeover of Nepal.

The Maoists control the police and Armed Police Force, they undertook a massive revamp of the bureaucracy and they tried to control the media. Only the army and judiciary were left.

With the chief justice, Kedar Prasad Giri, due to retire, the Maoists had planned to appoint the fifth Supreme Court judge in the hierarchy, but were foiled. Then they trained their guns on the army chief, Gen Rookmangud Katawal, a hardliner and a stumbling block to the Maoist attempt to induct all their People's Liberation Army fighters in the state army.

As early as in July 2008, the Maoists must have schemed the sacking of Katawal. That is why they needed a compliant president and Ram Raja Prasad Singh, whom they brought out of oblivion, fitted the bill perfectly.

However, Prachanda's worst nightmare came true when Yadav, the cipher president, crossed swords with him and reinstated the sacked army chief this month. The UML, nursing a series of grudges, was also weaned away easily, leading to the fall of the Maoist government.

What will happen next? While the Maoists say they will block parliament and keep up public protests till Yadav and Katawal exit, Prachanda Wednesday assured civil society leaders that he is in parleys with other party leaders to find a way out.

But Prachanda's credibility has taken a severe toss after the leakage of a video tape Tuesday that showed him boasting about how his party inflated the size of its guerrilla army and how it still plans to buy weapons and stage a counter-attack to capture total power.

The UML has now asked him to make a public clarification about the tape. If he does, Prachanda needs to be careful. Still on the terror list of the US and criticised by the UN as a persistent offender, his party is fast losing its appeal as a people's party.

With Gyanendra, the king who tried to grab absolute power, gone, the Maoists no longer have a convincing villain to blame the country's woes on as well as their own shortcomings. This time, it could be they who find themselves in the villain's

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 May 2009 15:21

Prachanda caught on camera lying to UN

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/prachanda-ca ... 876-2.html

Parrull / CNN-IBN
Published on Tue, May 05, 2009 at 23:11 in World section
Tags: Nepal, Prachanda , Kathmandu

CAUGHT ON TAPE: The video records Prachanda admitting his goal of getting Maoist cadres into the army.

Kathmandu: The poster boy of Nepal's Maoists, Prachanda has been caught lying on camera. The drama dates back to January last year when Prachanda was addressing fellow Maoists in Chitwan outside Kathmandu. There he admitted telling the United Nations that Maoist fighters numbered 35,000 when the actual figure was far less.

"We were around 7,000 fighters in the cantonment but we increased the number to become more strong," Prachanda is heard saying in the video.

Eventually, the United Nations fixed 20,000 as the total number of Maoist fighters, itself a grossly exagerrated figure and a financial settlement of around 6 lakh was made on that basis. The Maoists walked away - a rare case of ideology and profit going hand in hand.

The video records Prachanda admitting his goal of getting Maoist cadres into the army with the aim of taking it over. The Maoists remain committed to a peoples revolution in Nepal and they would never allow an election which they could lose.

The Maoists are also undercutting the Nepali Congress, backing for veteran communist leader Madhav Nepal as prime minister. They boycotted an all-party meeting called on Tuesday to form a new government by the weekend and threatened to disrupt Parliament if the issue goes to vote.

It's not clear yet whether they have been asked to unleash any violence because these cadre have proved they are capable of doing that and of holding a city and a country to ransom.

Meanwhile, the Supreme Court is also hearing a PIL on the manner in which President Ram Baran Yadav stayed the sacking of Army Chief General Katawal. Maoists are okay with that but the mood may change if the verdict goes against them.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 May 2009 15:25

An article about the Missionary-Maoist nexus in Nepal
-------------------------------------------

Anti-India axis in Nepal
By Sandhya Jain

http://www.dailypioneer.com/143224/Anti ... Nepal.html

Feb. 18, 2008
(The Pioneer)

Nepal Prime Minister GP Koirala must be ruing the day he allowed his Seven-Party Alliance to be conned into negotiating with Maoist leader Prachanda. Mr Koirala has given respectability to a bunch of armed thugs, agreeing to bring them into an interim regime and allowing them to dictate an interim Constitution along with the timetable for the election of a new Constituent Assembly to decide the monarchy's future. Unease over the implications of such fundamental changes in the Nepalese civilisational template are now spreading, as evidenced in the rise of pro-monarchy sentiment.

The suspicions are not misplaced. The December 18 wildcat strike in which Maoists unleashed six hours of terrible violence in Kathmandu to protest against the appointment of envoys to 14 countries, indicates that Prachanda intends to dominate the Himalayan kingdom through the barrel of the gun. Any doubts on this score were settled three days later when 5,000 armed rebels walked out of their camps in Ilam and Morang districts in a show of strength that rattled the aged SPA leaders, who have realised that the forces that instigated them to unseat King Gyanendra have used them like a railway service to reach another station.

Those forces want the political dominance of Prachanda through the 'good offices' of an obliging United Nations, which helped the US break up Indonesia and create Christian East Timor. Their success is likely because of Ms Sonia Gandhi's total commitment to the intrinsically anti-Hindu Western agenda. Thus, a civilisationally Hindu India has abandoned a civilisationally Hindu Nepal, because a White Christian dominates an effete Indian Government and wants to help a covert Christian illicitly ascend the throne of Nepal.

Like India today, Nepal tomorrow will have a ruler who does not share the dharma of the people and does not respect their traditions and culture. Unlike Ms Gandhi, Prachanda is an ethnic Nepalese, but his ascension puts Nepalese civilisation in peril. The Bharatiya Janata Party, which has finally got its national agenda together under the promising leadership of Mr Rajnath Singh, would do well not to neglect developments in our neighbourhood. Prachanda is pressurising Mr Koirala to implement the interim Constitution in just 10 days, dissolve the SPA and form an interim Government with Maoist participation, failing which he will unleash mayhem in the Himalayan nation.

Under the November 21 peace accord, Maoists agreed to confine their cadres to 28 camps and lock up their arms under UN supervision. But the sudden violence of the past few days prevented a UN-Maoist joint monitoring team from beginning inspections, and now reports of extortion and intimidation are pouring in from all over the country. The most bizarre aspect of the truce is the SPA's agreeing to let UN monitor the arms of both the Maoists and the Nepal Army, putting the nation's legitimate security force on equal footing with a gangster mob. There is no justice in the demand to confine the Nepal Army to barracks, and obviously a dubious foreign hand is behind this mischief, which will deny Nepalese village folk the sense of security needed to vote freely in the elections.

Elimination of the Nepal Army from the national scene will give the Western-dominated UN a free hand to do as it pleases in the polls, a situation New Delhi must resist. India's Election Commission will not be able to ensure free and fair elections there unless the Nepal Army or the Indian Army keeps Maoist arms and cadre under lock and key; by current estimates Maoists can win just about 10 out of 205 seats in a fair election. The UN must either be kept out or its mission manned exclusively by adherents of non-monotheistic faiths. As the main Opposition party, the BJP must speak up for the civilisational integrity of Nepal and resist Ms Gandhi's subversion of our traditional foreign policy.

Given the steep rise in conversion activity in India since Ms Gandhi's ascent, the BJP would do well to scrutinise missionary activism among the capital's Nepalese population as well. According to reliable sources, Maoists in New Delhi have close links with Christian groups. In Baljit Nagar, Moti Bagh and Mehrauli areas, secret churches have been established in houses occupied by Maoists. One church, with a banner proclaiming 'World Unification Movement', was visited by an unidentified White man who spoke about the political situation in Nepal.

Sources suggest the gentleman could be from the US-based Republication International Movement (RIM), which is active in Asia. This seems likely because a Meerut school, Thomas Child Academy, which is caring for the orphan children of Nepalese Maoist cadre, is known to display the RIM flag on occasions. Nearly 100 Nepalis have been provided employment in Indian churches and are luring fellow Nepalis to the congregations every Sunday, where the Maoist newspapers, Dishabodh and Dishanidesh, are distributed free.

A Nepali attending a meeting was shocked to see the pujari of the Nepali mandir in Baljit Nagar, Mr Puran Sharma, who is close to the Maoists, leading Christian prayers in Moti Nagar! This kind of subterfuge permeates the movement. While second-in-command Baburam Bhattarai and his family are openly Christian, Prachanda does not proclaim his religious affiliations but his wife's entire family is Christian. His guru, Chandra Pradesh Gajurel, was a Christian preacher. Sources estimate that the 42,000-strong Maoist army would be 30 per cent Christian, but the cadre are kept in the dark that the top leadership is predominantly Christian.

Nepal's temporary Constitution recognises all religions, but Hindus are apprehensive about the changes desired by the rebels. A US-based organisation, Global Recordings, has intensified its conversion activities and is propagating the Gospel in all tribal dialects. Nepalis ask that if the Maoists are not Christian, why would they attack and close down all Sanskrit pathshalas (only a couple survive) and stop compulsory Sanskrit education in school? There is harassment at Hindu festivals and Brahmins have been forced to eat beef; who would kill the cow in a Hindu kingdom? Then there was the attempt to make the rhinoceros the state animal, instead of the holy cow. Unnerved, religious groups want Nepal to be declared a Hindu state again, and to retain the Hindu King, a demand India should heartily support in its own interests.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 06 May 2009 15:53

Nepal Maoists, like the Indian Maoists, are purely a creation of the church and CIA. (Remember the Purulia air drops and how aggressively the Goras have got involved in Nepal, with Jimmy Carter running around the whole place.)

The White race represented by the Vatican and Anglo-saxons are trying to capture Nepal and turn it into a Christian state that will overnight turn into a "major non-NATO ally."

China has nothing to do with the Nepal Maoists. This canard is being nursed to sow confusion and conduct false flag operations.

If Indian government is smart, they will immediately ensure an army take-over of Nepal and arrange for the Maoist top leadership to "dissappear" in the turmoil. This would be the next best thing to happen to the Hindu race after the collapse of the LTTE.

Things are turning serious. Notice how easily Anglo Saxons arranged for some Tamils to block Indian army vehicles in Coimbatore and how groups of Tamils have been rallied to harrass the Indian High Commission in London. Similarly, the Anglo Saxons will turn the whole of nepal into a den of anti-Indianism and anti-Hinduism.

Time has come for Indian government to be ruthless, with some assasinations thrown in for good measure. Niceties of international diplomacy are now not going to carry Hindus far. Things have drifted too much away from them.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 May 2009 15:54

A TV channel today beamed footage of Prachanda, who quit as Nepal Prime Minister yesterday, saying how his guerrillas would “easily dominate” the other soldiers once they were inducted into the Nepal army.

Is this Indian reaction to Prachanda becoming too big for his boots despite Delhi helping him get the PMship?

The video might have conveniently surfaced from a vault of "stormy video archives" somewhere in Lodhi road...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 May 2009 16:11

Anantz wrote: quote="Sanku" quote="Anantz"
Finally, as mentioned by people on this forum before, stop connecting the Gorkhaland movement in India which is an internal demand raised by Indian citizens within India, to something happening in a foreign land. The both are not related, except by people trying to defame the Gorkhaland movement.

Well said Anant. Also what are your views on bringing Nepal into india with/or without an article 370 like charter?

Well I must admit that the sentiment of the people in Nepal is fiercely anti-Indian, it is similar to views shared by Indian Nepali/Gurkhas who are quite Anti-Nepal! In such circumstances contemplating bringing Nepal to India would be suicidal, it would be something much worse than the Kashmir insurgency we are facing. It would be better to leave Nepal as an independent country and use some of the good will we have left and the rich cultural and historical ties we enjoy, which are unmatched by China to keep Nepal closer to India as much as possible. Let them sort out their own mess, and help them where we can to build a good friendship. I guess only tactful diplomacy can solve this mess up in Nepal!

Did anyone expect the nepali maoists to come this far?

Has any think tank or strategic expert even wargamed that such a scenario would be openly aided and abetted by the Indian commies, with the elected government of the day standing by impotently? That moron yechuri has the gall to warn the Indian Govt not to interfere in "nepali internal affairs"

Our paramount interests in the stability of nepal have been compromised beyond repair. The nepali populace has turned hostile to Indian security concerns and Indian interests. china has already stepped in.

The only Hindu nation in the world has turned "secular", What was the hurry to do so? prachanda is a christian and for long time that particular broad geographic area of India including the northeast has been under overt and covert assault by the protestant church and this assault has resulted in vastly changed religious demographics. Hindus and buddhists are more than 90 percent of the population in nepal with christians being a mere 0.5%

Yet you don't seem to connect the dots.

The current shrill demand for a gorkhaland is fuelled by fairly recent arrivals and settlers from nepal. The no passport deal with the nepalis makes any nepali an Indian citizen, if he so chooses. Just like any bangladeshi import claims to be an Indian bengali.

Like the bangladeshis over ran west bengal and are now electorally dictating terms using our democracy in many adjoining districts after changing the demographics, the maoist nepalis will very soon connect up the Indian gorkhaland movement and the greater nepal movement.china will then soon provide the "diplomatic" support like pakistan does in kashmir.
You are handing china a trump card which they will use quickly in their eagerness to encircle India. Imagine chinese influence right on the UP borders.

India is bound to provide nepal access to the sea by internationally accepted law. No way you can throttle it into submission. With vocal chinese support nepal will humilate us internationally if we try this game.

The demand for a telengana never impacted our security concerns so connecting gorkhaland and telengana is a fallacious argument.
The bengali commies fear a hindu nepali majority influx. Now that the maoist prachanda is providing a christian alternative, it should suit them better.

Its high time that the Indian state moved in and encouraged all local Indian ethnic peoples to adopt a primarily Indian identity. After all, democracy should only go so far before the collective interest of the state supersedes narrow parochial interests.

Right to self determination has been tried in kashmir, punjab, hyderabad, tamilnadu and other places. You want to start another experiment for gorkhas also?

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 16:31

Sanku wrote: Well there is no Paki border so any "insurgency" wont be fierce, anyway one more question for you since you have kindly responded -- what conditions in Nepal do you think would change the sentiments of people in Nepal to a level where they feel may haps its better from them to troth their future with India's more directly?

There are many reason for the Anti-Indian feeling in Nepal, the primary reason is the fear of being merged to India like we did with Sikkim and losing their sovereignty. The politicians there use this fear for their electoral benefit, and end up blaming India for every reason on Earth. This has gradually led to an intense anti-Indian feeling. To top that, the expatriates who work in other foreign countries, they look at India with indignity and that too goes a long way in shaping the anti-India feeling. The point to note is the Anti-India feeling is there with the middle-class and the elites, the common folks have more to get from India hence they aren't too hostile over it. But the open interference by India in a lot of internal affairs of Nepal leads to a strengthening their fear of a merger hence even people who are normally pro-India are sidelined and are compelled to take a more anti-India attitude. I have specially seen this with many of my friends who are pro-India but on some issues like Indian interference in Nepal's internal issues they are pretty much embarrassed in front of their country men.

The people in Nepal are simple folks, they don't understand much outside the realms of bread and butter and sovereignty of their country, hence to prove it to them that giving up their independence and merging with India for democracy, social and economic upliftment is going to be beneficial to them on the long run is pretty much impossible.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 16:41

Chetak Sir, there is a little bit of hysteria in connecting Gorkhaland movement with Maoists in Nepal.

All what you say about Nepal is true but connecting the dots as you say really really goes for a long stretch and calls in lots of dots where dont exist.

For ex

The current shrill demand for a gorkhaland is fuelled by fairly recent arrivals and settlers from nepal.

No Sir; it was shrillest and hardest in 80s now its a completely different movement.

The no passport deal with the nepalis makes any nepali an Indian citizen, if he so chooses. Just like any bangladeshi import claims to be an Indian bengali.

Nepali's are practically Indian citizens, in almost all respects except voting. Quite different from BDs passing themselves off as Indians dont you think? And there is a GOOD reason for this open border.

So instead of dissolving the open border you want us to fear and retreat further?

the maoist nepalis will very soon connect up the Indian gorkhaland movement and the greater nepal movement.china will then soon provide the "diplomatic" support like pakistan does in kashmir.

No reason why it cants do so now if it wants. A UT-state like Delhi is hardly likely to be more independent.

The bengali commies fear a hindu nepali majority influx. Now that the maoist prachanda is providing a christian alternative, it should suit them better.

But they are still very worried; so it stands to reason that there is no anti-Indian influx expected by them. If what you were saying was correct. They would be rooting "for" and not against correct

Self determination etc...

A self governance by creating a new state does not mean either parochailism or self determination. It only means a more focus on a area neglected by Calcutta.

All every one is saying is that perhaps a hill state like Sikkim makes sense thats all.

Lets not get carried away here.

---------------

PS> I am also personally tired of "there are enemies at the borders, lets make them harder and more fortress like" thinking prevalent in India. NO we go in to the troubled spot and smack the enemies right there. Enough cowering in dark narrow places. Let the spirit of 71 soar guys.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 16:45

Anantz wrote: The people in Nepal are simple folks, they don't understand much outside the realms of bread and butter and sovereignty of their country, hence to prove it to them that giving up their independence and merging with India for democracy, social and economic upliftment is going to be beneficial to them on the long run is pretty much impossible.

True enough, but from personally from reading what you say, I would say that most of this fear is amongst the certain class and if we neutralize it (lets say they have something to fear even more) they may be ok with merging into India what say? Such conditions can certainly be created with enough plausible deniablity with some help from the dorks who study in JNU and such like.

Oh if only, GoI was not status quoist but was actually intrested in creating a true Bharat, sigh....

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 16:59

chetak wrote:
Yet you don't seem to connect the dots.

The current shrill demand for a gorkhaland is fuelled by fairly recent arrivals and settlers from nepal. The no passport deal with the nepalis makes any nepali an Indian citizen, if he so chooses. Just like any bangladeshi import claims to be an Indian bengali.

Forgive me Mr Chetak, but I am a Gorkha, and I know the Gorkhaland demand better than you will ever understand it. If you really want to understand what the Gorkhaland demand is all about go study the history and find out who your so called settlers are and when they arrived. If you still have confusion, then google the net and you will find a Govt of India notification issued in 1988 which settled what the legal status of Gorkhas are in India. The reason why we are fighting for Gorkhaland is because people like you call us Indians as foreigners just because there is a separate country nearby called Nepal. If you have so much problem with Nepalese people entering India why don't you ask the Govt to revoke the Indo-Nepal friendship treaty 1950. We Indian Gorkhas have been asking for the scrapping of the treaty since 1986. Infact, it was one such rally when Indian Gorkhas were demonstrating against the Indo-Nepal friendship treaty when the West Bengal Govt used the CRPF to massacre our people in kalimpong on 27th July 1986. Maybe you or rest of our country men are not aware of it. The Gorkhas have been living in Darjeeling since the 18th century. Sikkim has had a majority Gorkha population ever since its first officially recorded census, and you have the audacity to call us recent arrivals! If we are recent arrivals, how come our representative was part and signatory to the Indian Consitution. If the leaders of the statehood movement are foreigners, how are they able to seek appointment with senior cabinet ministers? Why don't you try to deport them and claim the whole movement as illegal. The fact is no one can, because our demand is just. The contribution of Indian Gorkhas towards the development of Nepali language is perhaps even more than Nepalese themselves. We have been an integral part of this country since before independence. And what do you mean by local ethnic Indian identity? Nepali is a constitutionally recognised language of India included in the constitution's 8 th schedule, just like Tamil or Bengali, are you saying that it is not part of an Indian identity?

Here is a piece of History of the Nepali people of Darjeeling whom you call settlers,the population figure of Darjeeling district and the population of Nepali speaking people in the district as per various census of India.

Year Population of Darjeeling District Population of Hill Sub-divisions Nepali speaking population of the district

1881 155179 92141 88000
1891 223314 150311 134000
1901 249117 173342 152167
1911 265550 189763 166974
1921 282748 206961 161308
1931 319635 239377 175285
1941 376369 286355 223888
1951 445260 328785
1961 624640 464972
1971 781777 479978
1981 1024269 533000
1991 1335618
2001 16,05,900 790591

FYI, please note the increase in the population of the district as compared to the population of the Hill Sub-divisions, where Nepalis/Gurkhas reside. You will find that while the Hill population made up 76% of the district in 1941 at the time of independence, it now accounts for only 49% of the population of the district. You can conclude yourself who are the illegal settlers and who came from where.

And why do you think compairing Telengana with Gorkhaland is fallacious, just because people of Telengana look like you and have a culture like you? If you think that rest of the mongoloid people of India who don't look like you and have a different culture, are not worthy of enjoying the same rights as any other citizen of India then why are you holding on to their land, you can't claim Darjeeling to be part of India, while the people there as foreigners, if you don't want the people then give up their land as well.

And lastly, by right to self determination is guaranteed to every Indian citizen by our constitution, it is not an experiment, and nobody is asking for any experiment. You might be happy staying in your part of the country, but ascertain the facts before you start jumping into conclusions about a part of the country you have no clue about.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 17:09

Anantz wrote: And why do you think compairing Telengana with Gorkhaland is fallacious, just because people of Telengana look like you and have a culture like you?

Anantz, chill Chetak has a very different perspective to this problem, I dont agree with his fears (he feels that the EJ are stoking the problem through Maoists as in many other parts of the country) but that is quite different from what you are taking his stance to be.

Meanwhile the data you posted speaks eloquently that part of the country also suffers massively from illegal immigrants from BD.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 May 2009 17:11

Sanku wrote:
Anantz wrote: The people in Nepal are simple folks, they don't understand much outside the realms of bread and butter and sovereignty of their country, hence to prove it to them that giving up their independence and merging with India for democracy, social and economic upliftment is going to be beneficial to them on the long run is pretty much impossible.
True enough, but from personally from reading what you say, I would say that most of this fear is amongst the certain class and if we neutralize it (lets say they have something to fear even more) they may be ok with merging into India what say?

"the certain class " you speak about can easily and quite simply settle down and buy property anywhere in India or elsewhere. And continue to remain hostile to India.

No one is going to ask them questions. Exactly the same as the many srilankan upper and middle class who have settled in India,
bought land and built houses. Indian passports and ration cards will follow fairly easily.

If India tries to move into nepal, china will quickly move in
" invited by the nepalese maoists govt" to help repel Indian invaders.

It is in china's supreme interest to stop any such merger.

kashmir in the reverse!

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 17:13

Sanku wrote:[
True enough, but from personally from reading what you say, I would say that most of this fear is amongst the certain class and if we neutralize it (lets say they have something to fear even more) they may be ok with merging into India what say? Such conditions can certainly be created with enough plausible deniablity with some help from the dorks who study in JNU and such like.

I think the best possible time for that was in the 1950s when we had the chance, now it is totally out of the question and impossible. Nobody would want such a thing, not the least the Indian Nepalis/Gurkhas. If we inherit that country, we will be inheriting anarchy, more economic woes and loads of problems, better to leave that mess to them, and work more on strengthening the relations we enjoy with them without being directly involved. I think the Indian Naxal/Maoists problem is big enough, and adding a more 20,000 strong and educated force will only give the rest of the Indian Naxal/movement loads of encouragement. This will not only create problems in Nepal, it will be detrimental for rest of the Naxal affected states of India as well.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 May 2009 17:25

I think the Gorkhaland demand is quite justified, and will not harm the country. What India needs to be concerned about is the Missionary-Maoist nexus.

Let me give a little background. The Maoists did get their initial backing from the CIA/Missionaries. At that time King Gyanendra (who is a scoundrel, by the way) was being backed by Pakistan and China.

However, lately, the Nepali Maoists have been shifting their allegiance from the CIA/Missionaries to China.

That is the reason that they did not receive much support from Western interests in their effort to sack the Army Chief.

As far as India is concerned, there is no reason to try to restore the Monarchy and put Gyanendra back in power. Lately Gyanendra has been travelling in India and trying to get backing from various quarters including the BJP. He had also met Narendra Modi. But let us keep his history in mind, and not be sentimental about the demise of the "Hindu" Kingdom.

Incidentally, this modus operandi of seizing control through a Maoist-Missionary nexus is quite old. It is said that Mao himself was backed by the CIA through missionaries against the Chinese nationalists (KMT)! China paid a huge price - millions died in Mao's lunatic "Great Leap Forward". But now the CPC is obviously independent.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 17:34

chetak wrote: kashmir in the reverse!

Thats the worst case scenario, it can also quite easily play the other way--

Maoists become too much of a pain for this elite and middle class hanging on to anti-India fad. (its nothing more than a fad for them they dont know what anti-India is) -- the Nepalese prez calls in India to maintain law and order, we go in take care of the Maoists top brass as well as the ISI-madarassa network and clean things up.

As a fillip the current Maoist movement in India being run out of Nepal also start drying out since the main supply nodes are destroyed.

There will be some pain, but might as well take the pain in being proactive rather than fighting in our holes, we are far stronger really than our fear complexs make us think.

Also Nepal is not only land locked, its India locked. China will have a fun time trying to move into Nepal if that is what it wants. We have the aces, we should use it instead of living in fear.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 May 2009 17:37

Pranav wrote:Let me give a little background. The Maoists did get their initial backing from the CIA/Missionaries. At that time King Gyanendra (who is a scoundrel, by the way) was being backed by Pakistan and China.

There is no reason to believe that CIA/Missionaries and Chinese were not actually cooperating as well as competing for influence in Nepal. After all they could afford to strike a temp working alliance to gain a foothold.

We have seen this, now friends now enemies behavior in past as well -- as long as it helps to get to the larger goal.

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 18:03

Pranav wrote:I think the Gorkhaland demand is quite justified, and will not harm the country. What India needs to be concerned about is the Missionary-Maoist nexus.

Just to give a bit of background, when Subhas Ghising's Gorkha National Liberation Front was leading the Gorkhaland movement in the 1980s it was pretty violent and around 1,200 people died. The movement led to formation of the Darjeeling Gorkha Hill Council in 1988 as a result of which Darjeeling and adjoining areas such as Kalimpong virtually became a separate state from West Bengal.

However Ghising, who had a good thing going couldn't handle it. This WiKi sums up the reason pretty well.

After 20 years of GNLF rule the people of Darjeeling revolted against the tyranny, atrocities, high handedness and corruption of the GNLF and prevented Subash Ghishing from entering the Darjeeling hills. It was common knowledge that Subhash Ghising was close to senile as evident by his speeches at GNLF party congregations where he talked about the indigenous bougainvillea flower should be called “Gunakeshari” and the flower was a panacea for almost all diseases from common cold to diseases like AIDS! Apart from that he was always accompanied by his personal “witch woman” who would give him the precise locations where he should erect a temple. One incident being he declared a big boulder lying on the side of a road in near Mirik as a rock from outer space, and ordered all of his “followers” to build a temple around it and to worship it. It Since then the people of Darjeeling and Doors have reignited their fight for right to self assertion and development of the region by demanding the formation of Gorkhaland.

Bimal Gurung who's leading Gorkha Janmukti Morcha is far more astute than Ghising and so far he's led a smart movement. However, will the Gorkhaland be a viable entity? It would be instructive to see what this report says.

In fact they themselves very well understand that their demand of separate Gorkhaland (as per their Map) is impractical. See their Map.

1. Darjeeling hills comprising of three subdivisions of Darjeeling, Kurseong, Kalimpong with a total area of about 1600 sqkm and population of 800000 of which Gorkhas (including Lepchas and Bhutias) comprise 700000. Definitely they are in Majority.
2. Siliguri Plains having a total population of 800000, with Bengalis making up 80% and an area of about 900sqkm (except Naxalbari zone)
3. Dooars areas of Malbazar and Nagrakata etc west of Sankosh river having an area of about 4000sqkm comprising of a population of about 1000000 of which Gorkhas comprise only 30%.

Just add up the areas, 6500sqkm and 26 lakh population, the Gorkhas would be minorities in Gorkhaland and Bengalis and Adivashis would dictate the Assembly of such a state. The result would be Gorkhas would have to agitate again for reservation in Assembly for Gorkhas.

Here's the map:

I personally feel the BJP extended support to Bimal Gurung just to open an unexpected front against the CPI(M) which already has its hands full with the prospect of having to face a combined Congress-Trinamul alliance. And I feel that's pretty fair ploy and I in fact think it shows whoever in the BJP is in charge of West Bengal knows his job well.

However, once this election is over and if the BJP comes to power don't expect it to rush in and form a separate state of Gorkhaland. The Global Village report has got its math spot on as anyone who's lived in West Bengal and has visited Darjeeling and Siliguri will testify.

And a Gorkhaland without Siliguri (remember that's the only rail head as well as airport which connects the tourism industry in Darjeeling/Kalimpong to the rest of India) would simply not be a viable entity. This is something which Subash Ghising realised a long time ago, one reason he settled for the Darjeeling Gorkha Hill Council despite having initial dreams about a separate state.

Also Siliguri is virtually the gateway to the Northeast from West Bengal and is for all practical purposed the dominant city in North Bengal. Don't expect any WB gov to give up Siliguri a place which has 80 per cent of it population Bengali!

JMT

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 18:16

One small correction, the area of the three hill sub-divisions of Darjeeling is 2411 sq kms with a population of 790,000 approx. Add to that even the current DGHC comprises of some parts of the Siliguri Sub-division which are pre-dominantly inhabited by Gorkhas, that leads to approximately 2500 sq Kms. Its economy is based on the World famous Tea industry and the tourism industry.

Now compare this with Sikkim which has an Area of 7096 sq kms where upto 70% of the land (Almost whole of North Sikkim) is barren and uninhabitable, which leaves only 2200 Sq Kms approx. It has a population of 540,000.

Now if Sikkim without any major industry, with a Tourism industry which is far less mature and less famous than that of Darjeeling can be economically sustainable, then why not Gorkhaland with only the three hill sub-divisions? Moreover, there are other Union Territories in India whose area and population is far less, with far less economic resources, if they are feasible then I see no reason why Gorkhaland as a UT or state cannot be realised for the people of Darjeeling. Even if that is not feasible, then Darjeeling can always be returned to the state of Sikkim as its 5th district, as Darjeeling and Kalimpong in the 18th century was a part of the Kingdom of Sikkim. This will need some adjustments and compromises on both sides, but both side having the same ethnic composition, with same language, culture, matrimonial and fraternal ties, I don't think it will be too hard to achieve that.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 06 May 2009 18:21

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... ce+process

A video tape where Nepal's outgoing premier Pushpa Kamal Dahal Prachanda tells his cadres that the country's peace process is no more than a tactic has been leaked to embarras his Maoist government that now rules as a caretaker. But it may end up embarrassing other major parties as well and cast doubts about the credibility of the peace process.

Nepal's private television channels on Tuesday night broadcast footage of Prachanda telling combatants of his guerrilla army that though he signed a peace pact with the major parties and agreed to take part in an election, it was part of a "revolutionary counter-attack" meant to carry on the revolt under a different strategy and capture complete power.

Just months away from the historic constituent assembly election in April 2008 that transformed Nepal from the world's only Hindu kingdom into a secular republic, the rebel supremo told his People's Liberation Army (PLA) fighters that the party had inflated the PLA strength almost fivefold during a verification by the UN.

"You all know that we were a small force," Prachanda said in the tape made during a PLA training session in the infamous Shaktikhor camp in southern Chitwan district where a businessman was beaten to death.

"Our number was about 7-8,000. But if we had told the UN that, our size would have been cut down to 4,000 (after verification). So we told the UN the PLA had 35,000. And now (after verification), we have 20,000."

He told the PLA not to be disheartened by the UN verification that reduced it to about 19,600. Once the party was in power, Prachanda indicated it could overturn the verification.

The tape also showed Prachanda saying the party would continue to buy arms for an ultimate fight to capture absolute power.

"We need money (for arms)," he said. "No one gives them free."

The money would be raised, he said, from the funds his party pressured the then coalition government into paying the PLA as their monthly salary. Of the nearly Nepali Rs.600 million the then government agreed to pay the PLA troops as salary, he said part would go to them while the rest would be used to buy arms.

The embarrassed Maoists Wednesday tried to downplay the tape, saying it was an old one and irrelevant. They also said it was part of the propaganda against them that had started with President Ram Baran Yadav committing a "coup against the constitution" and reinstating the sacked army chief.

Other major parties, predictably, took the moral high ground. The main opposition, the Nepali Congress, and the Maoists' former allies, the Communist Party of Nepal-Unified Marxist Leninist, said the tape exposed the dual nature of the Maoists and their thirst for power.

However, the parties could also have been aware of the deception and yet turned a blind eye to it.

The UN, which appointed its political wing, the UN Mission in Nepal (UNMIN), to monitor the arms and combatants of the Maoists, shrugged off accusations that it had mismanaged the verification. UNMIN Wednesday said the verification and eventual integration of the PLA with the Nepal Army were with the consent of the major political parties.

The verification of the PLA, it added, was done by a Joint Monitoring Coordination Committee that included the UN, PLA as well as the Nepal Army.

"The questions asked during the verification and the process - everything was decided according to consensus among the major political parties," the UNMIN spokesman in Kathmandu said.

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 18:23

Anantz wrote:One small correction, the area of the three hill sub-divisions of Darjeeling is 2411 sq kms with a population of 790,000 approx. Add to that even the current DGHC comprises of some parts of the Siliguri Sub-division which are pre-dominantly inhabited by Gorkhas, that leads to approximately 2500 sq Kms. Its economy is based on the World famous Tea industry and the tourism industry.

Now compare this with Sikkim which has an Area of 7096 sq kms where upto 70% of the land (Almost whole of North Sikkim) is barren and uninhabitable, which leaves only 2200 Sq Kms approx. It has a population of 540,000.

Now if Sikkim without any major industry, with a Tourism industry which is far less mature and less famous than that of Darjeeling can be economically sustainable, then why not Gorkhaland with only the three hill sub-divisions? Moreover, there are other Union Territories in India whose area and population is far less, with far less economic resources, if they are feasible then I see no reason why Gorkhaland as a UT or state cannot be realised for the people of Darjeeling. Even if that is not feasible, then Darjeeling can always be returned to the state of Sikkim as its 5th district, as Darjeeling and Kalimpong in the 18th century was a part of the Kingdom of Sikkim. This will need some adjustments and compromises on both sides, but both side having the same ethnic composition, with same language, culture, matrimonial and fraternal ties, I don't think it will be too hard to achieve that.

Anant,

It's not a question of economic viability. We're not talking about this Gorkhaland becoming an independent state or anything, it would be still within the Indian Union, right?

The point is how can we have a separate state for the Gorkhas where they will be in a minority? How to do you convince the majority non-Gorkha population of predominantly Bengalis that they need to move out of the West Bengal state and become a part of this Gorkhaland because the Gorkhas want it?

The only solution would be massive internal migration of Bengalis to Jalpaiguri and other parts south. Surely that's not a solution?

Giving in to this demand will only result in violence as surely the Bengalis of Siliguri will protest and who will take advantage of that situation? (Hint: The famous Naxalbari is an are contiguous to this potential trouble spot).

Let's be realistic and recognise ground realities.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 06 May 2009 18:25

Why the so called 'Gorkhaland' issue is being discussed in this thread. This seems quite irrelevant here !!!!!!

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 18:30

Even if that is not feasible, then Darjeeling can always be returned to the state of Sikkim as its 5th district, as Darjeeling and Kalimpong in the 18th century was a part of the Kingdom of Sikkim. This will need some adjustments and compromises on both sides, but both side having the same ethnic composition, with same language, culture, matrimonial and fraternal ties, I don't think it will be too hard to achieve that.

Anant another point. Are you sure Sikkim would want the Gorkhas to be part of their state? It's important to remember that Subhas Ghising did not get any support from Sikkim. I suggest you explore that point before casually proposing Darjeeling to become the 5th district of Sikkim.

One other point: If the whole idea of separating Darjeeling from West Bengal is to better the life of the Gorkhas living there, are you sure that their life will become significantly better if they merge with a poor state like Sikkim where the tea revenue would have to be distributed to the whole state.

It's also worth exploring where the tea trade - auction, buying, selling etc - takes place. I think you might be surprise to find out. The actual growing of the tea in the estates is only a small cog in the entire industry.

Cheers!

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 18:31

nsa_tanay wrote:Why the so called 'Gorkhaland' issue is being discussed in this thread. This seems quite irrelevant here !!!!!!

I would think the issue came up due to two reasons:

1) Gorkhas are of Nepali origin.

2) Darjeeling has a contiguous and open border with Nepal.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 18:37

My last post on this topic, sorry for going off Topic.

Yes I agree with you about the so called Gorkhaland comprising the plains of Dooars and Siliguri . I feel the boundaries should be restricted to the Hills, and a few contiguous areas which have pre-dominant Gorkha population. However if you have followed the agitation, then you will notice that the West Bengal or Indian Govt didn't even bother about the agitation till Siliguri and Dooars was included in it. Hence, it can be a bargaining chip for the state in the Hills.

Again, creating a state for the Gorkhas won't mean that other Non - Gorkhas have to move out of the region, I mean you have Biharis residing in Bengal, other communities residing in Punjab, then why should Bengalis or others move out of Gorkhaland! After all it s just a state within the Indian Union right?

However, I agree that a state for Gorkhas with a name of Gorkhaland would not be appropriate if the Gorkhas comprise only 30% of the population, hence a state or Union Territory comprising the Hill Sub-divisions with an area of approx 2500 sq kms and population of 800,000 would indeed be the best solution.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 06 May 2009 18:41

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... gate+tapes

A day after the resignation of Pushpa Kumar Dahal, Nepal’s first Maoist Prime Minister, a video called "Prachandagate” is the talk of this Himalayan Republic.

All this doesn’t augur well for the peace process and India that has invested so much in it. New Delhi’s only recourse can be to keep its channels open with the Maoists and hope for the best. Named after Dahal’s nom de guerre (a fictitious name used when the person performs a particular social role), which means “the fierce one,” it shows Prachanda while addressing Maoist cadres, talking about how he hoodwinked everyone about the “real numbers” of his army.

"You also know we were just 7,000 to 8,000. But our strategy was to convince them that we were 35,000,” he is seen saying in the one-year-old video. “That way, we infiltrate more people into the Nepal Army.”

In the video, Dahal tells his troops that he wants control over the Nepal Army and eventually, he hopes to transform the country to a single-party rule. “That is our strategy.”

On a day where only sporadic incidents of protest were reported from Kathmandu, and a large number of political parties sat closeted inside a room trying to thrash out an alternative government, the video made top news.

Maoist leader Mohan Baidya, while confirming the genuineness of the tape, made light of it by saying this was “old strategy” and the thinking within his party had completely changed. “One should really investigate why has this tape suddenly surfaced after a year at this time,” he added.

Baidya’s hint is clear – he means the Indian government and its alleged Machiavellian role in Nepal’s politics. If Dahal was subtle in his resignation speech on Monday, his number two and the Finance Minister Baburam Bhattarai was bludgeon-like. “India was behind this. It is going to cost India dearly…” The Maoists, clearly, have decided to whip up the old anti-India blame game frenzy.

Right from the days of King Mahendra, the “blame India” game has been played out in Kathmandu’s corridors of power – often with justification. The role of the Indian Embassy here is always seen with intrigue and is considered a part and parcel of the power equation.

This time too, analysts say, Indians had a strong interest in ensuring Gen Rookmangad Katawal stayed on as Army Chief. First, Katawal has close contacts with India’s top military brass and secondly the man who would have succeeded him – Gen Kulbahadur Khadka — is seen to be close to the Maoists.

Besides, there was the China factor. Nepal’s “Big Red” neighbour usually always dealt with the royal palace. But now, after the abolition of monarchy, it has decided to increase its sphere of influence and is openly wooing Nepal’s political parties including the Maoists. In fact, had he not resigned, Prachanda was scheduled for a Beijing visit that could have led to the signing of the first Sino-Nepal Friendship Treaty. So what happens now? The 21 parties who met on Tuesday have already declared that they shall form a national government on consensus. The Nepali Congress Vice President Ram Chandra Poudel said, “We will try to form a consensual government within the time as asked by the President.”

That means as soon as Saturday, Nepal could have a new government.

But Dahal and his party, the Unified Communist Party of Nepal, are still sulking. The Maoists skipped the all-party meeting on Tuesday, instead demanding an apology from President Ram Baran Yadav for saving Gen Katawal. They have also vowed to stall proceedings in the House.

All this doesn’t augur well for the peace process and India that has invested so much in it. New Delhi’s only recourse can be to keep its channels open with the Maoists and hope for the best.

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 18:43

Anantz wrote:My last post on this topic, sorry for going off Topic.

Yes I agree with you about the so called Gorkhaland comprising the plains of Dooars and Siliguri . I feel the boundaries should be restricted to the Hills, and a few contiguous areas which have pre-dominant Gorkha population. However if you have followed the agitation, then you will notice that the West Bengal or Indian Govt didn't even bother about the agitation till Siliguri and Dooars was included in it. Hence, it can be a bargaining chip for the state in the Hills.

Again, creating a state for the Gorkhas won't mean that other Non - Gorkhas have to move out of the region, I mean you have Biharis residing in Bengal, other communities residing in Punjab, then why should Bengalis or others move out of Gorkhaland! After all it s just a state within the Indian Union right?

However, I agree that a state for Gorkhas with a name of Gorkhaland would not be appropriate if the Gorkhas comprise only 30% of the population, hence a state or Union Territory comprising the Hill Sub-divisions with an area of approx 2500 sq kms and population of 800,000 would indeed be the best solution.

Anant,

Please don't get me wrong. Personally I'm actually in favour of smaller states because they are, I feel, more administratively viable and gives a sense of empowerment to the people.

However, the Map which we are discussing and the areas which are included in the Map have been provided by the Gorkha Janmukti Morcha and not by some other party. The idea of only Darjeeling being separate is what Subhas Ghising agreed too when he realised that including parts of the plains was not doable. Initially he had the same demands. Instead of using the existing Darjeeling Gorkha Hill Council as the basis for the current agitation the GJM has started off with a maximalist position which just simply re-visits the ground covered in the 1980s and resulted in the death of more than 1,200 people. History repeating itself?

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 18:50

amit wrote: Anant another point. Are you sure Sikkim would want the Gorkhas to be part of their state? It's important to remember that Subhas Ghising did not get any support from Sikkim. I suggest you explore that point before casually proposing Darjeeling to become the 5th district of Sikkim.

One other point: If the whole idea of separating Darjeeling from West Bengal is to better the life of the Gorkhas living there, are you sure that their life will become significantly better if they merge with a poor state like Sikkim where the tea revenue would have to be distributed to the whole state.

It's also worth exploring where the tea trade - auction, buying, selling etc - takes place. I think you might be surprise to find out.

Cheers!

Well, small correction on that, Gorkhas constitute 80 % of the population of Sikkim, and the state Govt of Sikkim had wholeheartedly supported the people of Darjeeling during the 1980s agitation. They had not only provided help in the form of providing refuge to hundreds of families from the atrocities of the CRPF, they had also provided medical treatment to many families from Darjeeling, even Subash Ghising when he was wanted by the CRPF was given refuge in Sikkim. The present Chief Minister of Sikkim, was the only major politicians in the country before the arrival of the BJP who had lobbied for the creation of Gorkhaland in New Delhi.

Well life will be significantly better for the people of Darjeeling if they merge with Sikkim, this can be seen by development that has taken place in that part of the country. Anyone who has travelled from Siliguri to Gangtok will tell you, how the change in landscape happens as soon as you enter Sikkim. The state may not be resource rich but it has managed the Central funds properly so much so, that it can be seen in the quality of life of the people in Sikkim. Sikkim under the present Chief Minister has excelled in every field in providing the best infrastructure an quality of life to its people. Add to that the Chief Minister is a Gorkha himself! Now contrast that with the West Bengal administration who's Ministers visit Darjeeling once in 5 years, that too to spend the summers vacationing there. the quality of life of the people in Darjeeling is pathetic and even basic infrastructure like water and electricity is no where within reach of the common people.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 06 May 2009 18:57

amit wrote: Anant,

Please don't get me wrong. Personally I'm actually in favour of smaller states because they are, I feel, more administratively viable and gives a sense of empowerment to the people.

However, the Map which we are discussing and the areas which are included in the Map have been provided by the Gorkha Janmukti Morcha and not by some other party. The idea of only Darjeeling being separate is what Subhas Ghising agreed too when he realised that including parts of the plains was not doable. Initially he had the same demands. Instead of using the existing Darjeeling Gorkha Hill Council as the basis for the current agitation the GJM has started off with a maximalist position which just simply re-visits the ground covered in the 1980s and resulted in the death of more than 1,200 people. History repeating itself?

I agree with you, at the back of my head even I get the same questions, but you see, like I said before without Siliguri or Dooars in the demand nobody had even raised his ears. Lemme give you an example, in 2001 when an assasination attempt was made on Subash Ghising, Darjeeling Hills went into a total shut down for 2 weeks, at that time neither did the West Bengal Govt nor the Indian Govt intervene to restore normalcy, the common people suffered but no one in Kolkatta was bothered. The only one crying was the Govt in Sikkim, even recently when Bimal Gurung shut down the hills for over a week, neither the administration in Kolkata nor in Delhi try anything to restore normalcy, only when the Sikkim Govt petitioned the Supreme Court, both Union Home Ministry and Kolkata did something, hence if GJMM had not raised the issue of Siliguri and Dooars, the administration in Kolkata would not have even bothered to listen, now that they fear losing Siliguri and the Dooars, they are initiating talks, and trying to tell the GJMM folks to restrict the talks to the Hills....

I hope you can get what I am saying!

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 06 May 2009 19:05

No point including Bengali majority areas into a Gorkhaland state. On what basis should that happen anyway?

Best case is to have a UT status for Darjeeling hills and any Gorkha majority Indian areas nearby.

Having such serious discontent simmering for so long in such a strategic area is an invitation for outside powers to stir trouble and exploit the situ.

In any case, smaller ethnic group based states (hopefully also in Kamtapur and Bodoland) will stem the tide of BD illegal settlers that the CPIM and INC have called in for myopic electoral gains. Sala the IMDT betrayal by INC still rankles.

Anyway, Meghalaya has shown that they won't tolerate BD illegals. Hopefully, the new, smaller ethnocentric states also won't allow them to settle on Indian land.

Just my 2 paisa onlee.
/Have a nice day, all.

yvijay · Post by **yvijay** » 06 May 2009 19:21

Nice discussion going on between amit and anantz. I got to know a lot about the Indian nepalis and about gorkhaland agitation. I think this is the beauty of BR. We get to know the ground situation from the actual folks living there instead from the biased opinion of the DDM. It would have been even better if we had someone from Nepal posting here to know about their opinion.

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 19:21

Sudhir,

This is getting OT but a just a quick one - we can discuss on some other thread if you want to chat - do you think Bodoland would such a good idea?

Some background info

History

The Bodos, a major tribe in the State of Assam, have initiated their own form of insurgency to fight against the possession of their tribal land by Bengali settlers and the native Assamese, neglect of the Bodo language, and to express a sense of being exploited. The Bodos, being the earliest settlers in Assam, have cited economic and social neglect by the State government. The first Bodo organisation, the All Bodo Students ' Union (ABSU) was founded in 1967, and the Bodos started demanding a separate state within India towards the later half of the 1980s. In 1988, the National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB) was founded, and it initiated guerrilla war. NDFB was originally established as the Bodo Security Force (BSF) in 1988 under the leadership of Ranjan Daimary. It was later renamed NDFB.

Objectives

The purported objective of this outfit is to secure a "sovereign Bodoland" in the areas north of the river Brahmaputra. While the other Bodo groups, such as the Bodo Liberation Tigers (BLT), demanded a separate state within Indian territory for the Bodo people, the NDFB wants a separate country for itself.

The other demand of the NDFB is regarding the script of the Bodo language. Currently the Bodo language is written in Devnagri script; NDFB, whose members are mostly Christians, prefer to use the Roman script.

Strategy

The NDFB was originally founded to protect the interests of the Bodos; but, over the years, this objective has been diluted, and it has joined hands with the ULFA (United Liberation front of Asom), which fights against the non-Assamese domination in the State. Presently, NDFB works in tandem with the ULFA. Sometime in 1999, the ULFA and NDFB formed a coordination committee for launching a united struggle. NDFB has also established a working arrangement with the National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM), an insurgent outfit in neighbouring Nagaland.

There's some more interesting stuff there.

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 May 2009 19:26

yvijay wrote:Nice discussion going on between amit and anantz. I got to know a lot about the Indian nepalis and about gorkhaland agitation. I think this is the beauty of BR. We get to know the ground situation from the actual folks living there instead from the biased opinion of the DDM. It would have been even better if we had someone from Nepal posting here to know about their opinion.

Vijay,

I'm glad to have been of help for you to understand the situation. However, I don't live in Darjeeling or Siliguri.

Used live in Calcutta a long time ago and I had a hazy recollection of the Subhas Ghising agitation during those days. The rest a simple search on the Net provided the material to reinforce my memory - it took just 5 mins.

I always maintain the reverse of DDM is folks who rush in to post without doing some basic background checks. With Mr Google it's a song really.

Just my two cents.

yvijay · Post by **yvijay** » 06 May 2009 19:45

amit wrote: Vijay,

I'm glad to have been of help for you to understand the situation. However, I don't live in Darjeeling or Siliguri.

Used live in Calcutta a long time ago and I had a hazy recollection of the Subhas Ghising agitation during those days. The rest a simple search on the Net provided the material to reinforce my memory - it took just 5 mins.

I always maintain the reverse of DDM is folks who rush in to post without doing some basic background checks. With Mr Google it's a song really.

Just my two cents.

I’m sorry for not being clear. I was pointing about you from kolkatta and Anantz being from Darjeeling. But I agree with you about the DDM. I learnt a lot about N.Eastern states from reading BR following various threads and discussions.