Tibet watch

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bala
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Tibet watch

Postby bala » 30 Apr 2008 23:33

The orchestration by the Gobellian CCCP/PLA in HongKong to remove any trace of wrong doing in the past.. Does Tibet hold a chance when Tiananmen memories are being painted over?

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Postby Karan Dixit » 03 May 2008 21:44


Exiled Tibetan Gov't, China Ready For Peace Talks


http://www.topix.net/content/cbs/2008/0 ... eace-talks

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India’s trade is more focused on the Far East’

Postby joshvajohn » 05 May 2008 02:09

India’s trade is more focused on the Far East’

The author of ‘The Second World’ on why India’s day in the sun might never arrive

http://www.livemint.com/2008/05/0300082 ... de-is.html

My comment about the book and the review:
As long as such authors are there India and Indians can never assert themselves! I think we need to believe in ourselves that we can stand to anyone regardless of their power or their growth.

Such authors have defeated Indian mind to a greater extent than others from outside.
Last edited by joshvajohn on 05 May 2008 03:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby surinder » 05 May 2008 07:34


G Subramaniam
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In defence of JLN

Postby G Subramaniam » 05 May 2008 10:23

I used to be a bitter critic of JLN a few weeks ago

As I read,

Protracted Contest
by John Garver who had inside access to both India and China,

a more nuanced picture of JLN emerges

JLN is head and shoulders above idiots like gujral, gowda, and manmohan singh

We are all too familiar with his flaws, but in many areas he had vision
He would have made an excellent planning commisioner head or something like that
Maybe an excellent president. In many of his ways he stands out as an earlier version of kalam

Mao and Chou were crooks of the first order who even fooled stalin

JLN was familiar with the deviousness of the west, but the deceptions of chou en lai were several orders of magnitude greater


*The easiest way to get food into tibet was through India
after the Dalai lama got asylum, JLN blockaded tibet in 1959
forcing the chinese to bring food from mainland china

*JLN started the Special Frontier Force in Nov 1962, of 10000 tibetan commandos

*JLN realised that in the long term, a strong economy was essential to generate funds for defence against the chinese

*The tibetan infrastructure in India, was set up by JLN , at a time when India was poor

*JLN gave lots of arms and money to Myanmar to fight off a chinese commie insurrection in 1949

*In short in the 1949-1951 timeframe, JLN sent arms and money to rescue Myanmar, Sikkim, Bhutan, Nepal

*In 1949, JLN gave arms to tibet
This book is a classic

*In short JLN rescued Sikkim, Bhutan, Nepal and Myanmar from the chinese commies

*The main reason he did not turn to the west was because the price that the west demanded was handing JK to TSP

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Postby Karan Dixit » 05 May 2008 11:14

I just wanted to add my humble two paisas about Nehru as well. Nehru recognized western mischief as soon as he assumed command. As a mature leader of a mature country, he wanted friendship with China. This was the best way to check western influence in Asia. But Chinese leadership played into the hands of western imperialists and did not realize the importance of friendship with India. Chinese attacked India just to earn praise from western countries. China has acted like a bully towards fellow Asian countries while licking the boots of western countries.

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Postby Nayak » 05 May 2008 12:09

Dalai Lama has committed 'monstrous crimes': China's state press

The article, which did not refer to Sunday's talks, described the Dalai Lama's demands for "genuine autonomy" in Tibet and the "greater Tibetan region" as fraudulent.

The "Dalai Clique" is trying to "confuse public opinion and incite ethnic hatred," the article said. The Dalai Lama's attempt to realise a "greater Tibetan region, is part of his attempt to split the motherland," it said.

The paper insisted that Tibetans currently enjoyed full autonomy and did not need the "genuine autonomy" the Dalai Lama had called for.

Meanwhile, the English-language China Daily called the Tibetan Youth Congress, run by exiled Tibetans, a "terrorist organisation" bent on separating Tibet from China.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

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Desperate Chinese!!!!

Postby joshvajohn » 05 May 2008 21:02

My comments:
India needs to develop a stronger and huge regiment of Tibetians. Having set aside Dalai Lama it needs Tibetians to fight for their own not in a terrorist way but in case of a war against Chinese openly!!!!! India should be prepared to clear the way for Tibetians to form their own country as Chinese do find themselves not fitting with Tibetians at all!!! So Tibetians can no more live with Chinese as their ethnic attitude is too crude and too bitter!!!

Tibetan outfit in India has al-Qaeda links: China

Agencies
Posted online: Monday , May 05, 2008 at 03:33:53
Updated: Monday , May 05, 2008 at 05:00:35
Print Email To Editor Post Comments


Beijing, May 5: As the talks between the Dalai Lama's envoys and China failed to yield a breakthrough, Beijing on Monday intensified its attack on the monk accusing him of committing 'monstrous crimes' and 'fraud' and alleged that a Tibetan outfit based in India had links with terror group al-Qaeda.

The Dalai Lama's two envoys Lodi Gyari and Kelsang Gyaltsen returned to India from talks in Shenzen with nothing more than an assurance from Beijing to hold the next round of dialogue at "an appropriate time".

At the meeting, the first after the unrest erupted in Tibet posing the most serious challenge to Beijing in the last two decades, China did some tough talking asking the Dalai Lama to make "credible moves" to stop violence and not to "sabotage" the Beijing Olympics to create conditions for the next round of parleys.

The two sides have had seven rounds of talks since 2002 with no substantial outcome.

"Following the March 14 incident in Lhasa, the Dalai has not only refused to admit his monstrous crimes, but also has continued to perpetuate fraud," the official Tibet Daily said.

Dismissing the Tibetan leader's talk about "genuine autonomy" and "greater Tibet region" as "fraudulent", the newspaper accused the "Dalai clique" of trying to confuse public opinion and trying to "incite ethnic hatred".

Describing the Dharamshala-based Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC) as the "armed spearhead of the 14th Dalai Lama group", the state-run Xinhua news agency said "TYC has become a terrorist organisation."

"They (TYC) had also sought mutual support from international terrorist organisations such as Al-Qaida and East Turkistan groups," Liu Hongji, expert at China Tibetology Research Centre in Beijing, was quoted as saying.

The 72-year old Nobel laureate living in exile in India, who has targeted by China for allegedly "masterminding" the violence, has insisted that he only wants greater autonomy for Tibet and is not asking for its independence.

Refusing to divulge much about the talks, the Tibetan government-in-exile said the Dalai Lama's envoys will arrive in Dharamshala on Wednesday to brief him.

Prime Minister of the government-in exile Samdhong Rinpoche said that the envoys had conveyed to the Chinese side the feeling of the Dalai Lama that peace should be restored in Tibet immediately and an amicable solution of the vexed issue found at the earliest.

Dismissing allegations against the Dalai Lama, he dared China to prove them to the world community.

However, the Xinhua maintained that Chinese officials Zhu Weiqun and Sitar told the envoys that the riots in Lhasa on March 12 had given rise to "new obstacles" for resuming contacts and consultations with the "Dalai side".

The People's Daily online on Monday carried another article which said that despite the recent riots in Lhasa and disruption done to the Beijing Olympics torch relay, the central government still agreed to resume talks at the repeated requests of the Dalai Lama.

The move to hold talks, it said, has shown Beijing's "great tolerance, sincerity and patience for the Dalai Lama".

It asked the Tibetan leader to "put the national interest first and comply with the aspirations of the people" and halt activities "to split the motherland" and stop "inciting violent moves" and activities to disrupt the Beijing Olympics to create favourable conditions for contact in the next step.

China says 20 people have been killed and hundreds of others injured in the violence, but the Tibetan government maintains the death toll has crossed 200.

The unrest in Tibet and Beijing's crackdown to quell it ahead of the Olympics in August had brought global pressure on China to reopen dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

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Postby Karan Dixit » 05 May 2008 21:32

Dr. Prem Singh, Member of the Organizing Committee said, "Our plea is that this non-violent protest against oppression may be allowed to continue till a peaceful solution is arrived at the earliest. Any forceful method to deprive the Tibetans of their right to struggle for their identity and autonomy might create unpleasant, unfortunate and even violent circumstances. We, therefore, would like to hope for an immediate peaceful solution of the Tibet problem."

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Postby Sumeet » 06 May 2008 03:34

I fell off my chair. Too much TSP intelligence induction effect showing on PRC folks.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

What next they have links to Martians as well ?

Tibet group in India has Qaida links: China


BEIJING: Beijing came out with a fresh assessment of the Tibet situation on Monday, one in which it accused the Tibetan Young Congress (TYC) of links with the al-Qaida and terrorist organisations involved in the East Turkmenistan movement in west China's Xinjiang province. The analysis, released by the official Xinhua news agency, said that Dalai Lama's government-in-exile in India consists of several TYC leaders and cadre.

"The TYC has become a terrorist organization as concepts of violence have taken root within it," Xinhua quoted official Tibetologist Liu Hongji as saying in an interview. "The group's shadow was evident when the police confiscated a large number of guns and ammunition in some monasteries in China's Tibetan-inhabited regions after the March 14 riot," Liu said.

The charges about TYC's terrorist's activities and its links with the Tibetan government-in-exile may become a strong argument among Communist Party leaders, who are opposed to any reconciliation with the Dalai Lama.

Chinese officials have demanded an assurance from Dalai Lama's representatives that there will be no attempts by monks and their supporters to disrupt the Olympic torch relay as well as law and order in Tibet in the coming weeks, sources said.

The talks got deadlocked on Sunday as both sides refused to budge from their known stand over the March 14 riots in Lhasa. The Chinese side rejected accusations about bad handling of the riots, saying that the Lhasa authorities had responded to violence in the most appropriate manner.

Chinese officials maintained that Dalai Lama's supporters were responsible for instigating the riots and they must now ensure that there is no more disruption of law and order in Tibet, sources said. This plea was rejected by the envoys from Dharamsala, who denied having a hand in the Lhasa riots.

Chinese president Hu Jintao on Sunday tried to give a push to the process of negotiations with Dalai Lama's envoys, saying he expected it would yield "positive results". The main purpose behind China's efforts to hold talks with the Dalai Lama's envoys is to ensure the success of the Olympic torch relay as it passes through Tibet to reach Mount Everest and to make sure that western leaders, including US president George Bush, attend the opening ceremony of the Beijing Games.

But there are sections in the ruling Communist Party, which are staunchly opposed to any talks with the Dalai Lama.

Despite Chinese officials agreeing to maintain dialogue with Dalai Lama, China's state press on Monday accused the spiritual leader of "monstrous crimes", keeping up its fiery rhetoric.

"Following the March 14 incident in Lhasa, the Dalai has not only refused to admit his monstrous crimes, but he has continued to perpetuate fraud," an article in Monday's state Tibet Daily said.

The article, which did not refer to the talks, described the Dalai Lama's demands for "genuine autonomy" in Tibet and the "greater Tibetan region" as fraudulent.

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Re: In defence of JLN

Postby surinder » 06 May 2008 17:35

G Subramaniam wrote:I used to be a bitter critic of JLN a few weeks ago

As I read,

Protracted Contest
by John Garver who had inside access to both India and China,

a more nuanced picture of JLN emerges

....

*The main reason he did not turn to the west was because the price that the west demanded was handing JK to TSP


The problem with reading isolated books and interpreting them according to isolated facts is that you miss the wholistic complete picture, even though the individual facts are correct.

It is true that Nehru was rebuffed by the West. But if Nehru realized that we are up against China and the West will not support us, what should he do? Certainly berating and humiliating the Army Chiefs is not one of the actions one would expect. He and Krishna Menon ran the Army into the ditch. Cut off funds for them and demoralized them. That is not an action of a man who realizes the perfidy of the China+West.

Then take Non-Aligned movement. There was no need for India to spear head a movement which could not even raise its voice against China in 1962. If you are truly cornered by China+West, would you spend your political capital collecting rag-tag nations to form NAM?

What about gifting Cocoo islands? Refusal of UNSC? Stopping the Indian forces from taking PoK? Taking Kashmir to the UN?

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Postby ShauryaT » 06 May 2008 21:23

China's Tall Claim: Brahma Chellaney
As a triumphal symbol of its rule over Tibet, China is taking the Olympic torch through the "Roof of the World" to Mt Everest, which straddles the Tibetan-Nepalese border.

That publicity stunt will only infuse more politics into the Games already tainted by the manner China's pressure helped turn the just-concluded international torch relay into a stage-managed, security exercise everywhere to pander to its sense of self-esteem at the cost of the Olympic spirit of openness.

Taking the torch to the tallest mountain is Beijing's way of reinforcing its tall claim on Tibet. The blunt fact is that the only occasions in history when Tibet was clearly part of China was under non-Han dynasties — that is, when China itself had been conquered by outsiders: the Mongol Yuan dynasty, from 1279 to 1368, and the Manchu Qing dynasty, from 1644 to 1912.

What Beijing today asserts are regions "integral" to its territorial integrity are really imperial spoils of earlier foreign dynastic rule in China.

Yet, revisionist history under communist rule has helped indoctrinate Chinese to think of the Yang and Qing empires as Han.

When a dynasty was indeed ethnically Han, such as Ming (founded between the Yang and Qing empires), Tibet had scant connection to Chinese rulers.

Today, to prevent any demonstrators sneaking in from the Nepalese side and spoiling its triumphalism atop the 8,848-metre Everest, China has pressured a politically adrift Nepal to police entry routes to the peak and deploy troops up to the 6,500-metre Camp II.

Having eliminated the outer buffer with India by annexing Tibet, China is now set to expand its leverage over the inner buffer, Nepal, where the Maoists will lead the next government following elections marred by large-scale intimidation.

Beijing's plan to take the torch to Tibet is nothing but provocative. After all, the Chinese crackdown in Tibet continues, Tibetan monasteries remain sealed off, hundreds of monks and nuns are in jail, and the vast plateau is still closed to foreigners.

In fact, China specially constructed a 108-kilometre blacktop road to Everest to take the torch to the summit, unmindful of the environmental impact of such activities in pristine areas.

China's large hydro projects in Tibet — the source of all of Asia's major rivers except the Ganges — and its reckless exploitation of the plateau's vast mineral resources already threaten the region's fragile ecosystem, with Chinese officials admitting average temperatures are rising faster in Tibet than in rest of China.

Yet, such is the Olympics' politicisation that Beijing has extended the torch relay in Tibet into June. After ascending Everest in the coming days, the torch is to travel to Lhasa on June 19.

The torch's three-month route within China, as compared to just a five-week run through the rest of the world, shows that for the Chinese Communist Party, the Olympics are an occasion not only to showcase national achievements under its rule, but also to help win popular legitimacy for its political monopoly.

To some extent, the Olympics have always been political, with politics more about national power and pride. But until this year, politics had not cast such a big shadow since the Soviet-bloc nations boycotted the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics in reprisal to the US-led boycott of the 1980 Moscow Games.

As if the relay becoming the most divisive in history is not enough, China is stoking more controversy through the torch's Everest climb and Tibet run.

Yet, while continuing brutal repression in Tibet, it has made the Olympics' success such a prestige issue that it has offered to meet the Dalai Lama's "private representative". Blending hardline actions with ostensible concessions has been Chinese strategy for long.

Even as it was readying to invade India in 1962, China was suggesting conciliation. Today, while stepping up cross-border incursions and encouraging India-bashing by its official organs, with a recent China Institute of International Strategic Studies commentary saying an "arrogant India" wants to be taught another 1962-style lesson, Beijing offers more meaningless talks with New Delhi.

Clearly, China has appropriated the Olympic torch for its own political agenda. It never tires from lecturing to the world not to interfere in its internal affairs. Still, during the international relay, it kept interfering in the affairs of other states, wanting to be kept in the loop on the local security arrangements and insisting that pro-Tibet demonstrations not be allowed.

It even helped script some counter-demonstrations by young Chinese along the international route. Now a pressured Nepal has been forced to restrict expeditions to Everest in the busiest mountaineering season and station soldiers with authority to open fire as "a last resort". All this is to ensure that not a single protester or Tibetan flag greets the torch on Everest.

All autocrats tend to do things that ultimately boomerang. Who would have thought two months ago that Tibet would come to the centre of world attention? A relay carrying the theme, "Journey of Harmony", has helped bring host China under international scrutiny.

The autocracy's troubles indeed may only be beginning. This year could prove a watershed. Just as the 1936 Berlin Olympics set the stage for Nazi Germany's collapse, the Beijing Games could end up as a spur to radical change in China.

Those who see Tibet as a lost cause forget that history has a way of wreaking vengeance on artificially created empires.

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Postby Sriram » 06 May 2008 22:56

Behave or else: IOC, China lay down the law for Games
THE International Olympic Committee has toughened its interpretation of the Olympic Charter, informing potential Beijing Games athletes that their actions, reactions and attitudes will be scrutinised at the coming Olympics - right down to their appearance, clothing, gestures and any written and oral statements.

....

The IOC has detailed its expectations of athletes, noting "such conduct must also, of course, comply with the laws of the host state".

The IOC's rule says "no kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas".

It says its interpretation is to include: "The conduct of participants at all sites, areas and venues [including] all actions, reactions, attitudes or manifestations of any kind by a person or group of persons, including but not limited to their look, external appearance, clothing, gestures, and written or oral statements."

....

The letter said the Olympics was not the stage for political statements "about issues such as armed conflicts, regional differences, religious disputes and many others".

Athletes breaking the rules will be stripped of their Games accreditation, which doubles as the entry and exit visas for China. In addition, athletes, officials or visitors who are detained by security officials can be held for 72 hours without the relevant embassy being notified.

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Re: In defence of JLN

Postby G Subramaniam » 07 May 2008 07:24

surinder wrote:
G Subramaniam wrote:I used to be a bitter critic of JLN a few weeks ago

As I read,

Protracted Contest
by John Garver who had inside access to both India and China,

a more nuanced picture of JLN emerges

....

*The main reason he did not turn to the west was because the price that the west demanded was handing JK to TSP


The problem with reading isolated books and interpreting them according to isolated facts is that you miss the wholistic complete picture, even though the individual facts are correct.

It is true that Nehru was rebuffed by the West. But if Nehru realized that we are up against China and the West will not support us, what should he do? Certainly berating and humiliating the Army Chiefs is not one of the actions one would expect. He and Krishna Menon ran the Army into the ditch. Cut off funds for them and demoralized them. That is not an action of a man who realizes the perfidy of the China+West.

Then take Non-Aligned movement. There was no need for India to spear head a movement which could not even raise its voice against China in 1962. If you are truly cornered by China+West, would you spend your political capital collecting rag-tag nations to form NAM?

What about gifting Cocoo islands? Refusal of UNSC? Stopping the Indian forces from taking PoK? Taking Kashmir to the UN?



The problem with reading isolated books and interpreting them according to isolated facts is that you miss the wholistic complete picture, even though the individual facts are correct.


John Garver's book is the most complete most upto date book on India, china and tibet and chinese links to pakistan, so far esp history from 1947-1999




But if Nehru realized that we are up against China and the West will not support us, what should he do? Certainly berating and humiliating the Army Chiefs is not one of the actions one would expect. He and Krishna Menon ran the Army into the ditch. Cut off funds for them and demoralized them. That is not an action of a man who realizes the perfidy of the China+West.

Nehru felt he could contain china by appeasement and diplomacy

Of course he was proven wrong
Just like Chamberlain

Mao and Chou had even fooled stalin

Nehru was infected with Gandhian ahimsa and felt that war was very wrong - nevertheless war came

But Nehru at his worst was better than current UPA regime

As I wrote earlier, Nehru deserved to be in planning commission or presidency etc, where he could indulge his vision without too much damage

Basically a people get the leader they deserve

Indians wanted subsidised ration rice, they want socialism, they want caste quotas, they want subsidised kerosene, they want free electricity, they wanted linguistic states, they wanted butter, not guns and Nehru being a politician , like most politicians gave it to the Indian public

Indian people are not long-term patrotic
Sure during wars, they support the army, the rest of the time, defense is forgotten

Only Narendra Modi, has the guts to stop subsidies

Mao, shipped most of his agricultural produce to russia in exchange for weapons

Mao, did not mind starving 42 mil chinese to get weapons

Nehru never understood until too late that he was facing a man worse than hitler



If we rank our PMs

1. Indira Gandhi
2. PVN Rao
3. Atal
4. Nehru
5. Rajiv
6. Morarji
7. Charan
8. Chandrasekhar
9. Deve Gowda
10. Gujral
11. VP Singh
12. Woman Mohan singh
[/i]

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Postby surinder » 07 May 2008 08:16

The essential problem is that Nehru does not come across as a man who understood the PRC threat. But even that is not the main point. If he was doing other things well (things that were normal, natural, rational) then even if he missed some of the evil of PRC, he could still have handled them well. In other words, 10 right things do help cover the 11th error. But the net cumulative of all the actions led us to the path he led us.

He could have understood a simple fact war and violence are not going to end after 1947. He could have seen that the IA was strong and fighting force. He could have seen how useless the whole NAM concept was. He could have seen that Pakistan needs to be tackled throughly---having the puss of an unsolved Kashmir problem cannot be good for the nation (especially if victory was within reach). He could have seen that refusing UNSC seat is madness, as is gifting Cocoo island away. He could have seen the folly of signing IWT. Furthermore, it was *not that difficult* to see the Tibetan invasion unfold for full one decade.

But I agree with one thing you say: Countries ultimately get the leadership they deserve. A nation hooked on language issues, caste reservation, pseudo-secularism, archaic labor laws, is hardly a prime candidate for a robus defence. India, I am sorry to say, has been reluctant to make sacrifices. This shows in its eagerness to attach to foolish notions of peace. In criticising JLN, I criticize my own nation.

(PS: His vision in matters of education etc. were very useful for India. We must acknowledge that.)

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Postby G Subramaniam » 07 May 2008 09:10

Surinder, the Garver book, shows, that JLN took several steps to contain China, unlike popular belief on BRF, that JLN did nothing

However what he did was insufficient,

JLN even shipped arms to tibet in 1950
JLN protested to Mao about Tibet

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Postby nkumar » 07 May 2008 10:08

surinder wrote:(PS: His vision in matters of education etc. were very useful for India. We must acknowledge that.)


I am looking for some references regarding the original idea of IITs. I heard somewhere that original idea of IITs was of someone else, as opposed to the popular belief that it was JLN's. Surinder, any idea?

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Postby sanjaykumar » 07 May 2008 10:17

He could have understood a simple fact war and violence are not going to end after 1947. He could have seen that the IA was strong and fighting force. He could have seen how useless the whole NAM concept was. He could have seen that Pakistan needs to be tackled throughly---having the puss of an unsolved Kashmir problem cannot be good for the nation (especially if victory was within reach). He could have seen that refusing UNSC seat is madness, as is gifting Cocoo island away. He could have seen the folly of signing IWT.

Too true. BUT those were heady days when a half-naked fakir had overthrown an empire and violence was anathema to his successors. Also NAM was useful in its own way as leverage against the west and its neo-imperialist ideas.

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Postby svinayak » 08 May 2008 09:47

Image

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Postby G Subramaniam » 08 May 2008 09:56

sanjaykumar wrote:He could have understood a simple fact war and violence are not going to end after 1947. He could have seen that the IA was strong and fighting force. He could have seen how useless the whole NAM concept was. He could have seen that Pakistan needs to be tackled throughly---having the puss of an unsolved Kashmir problem cannot be good for the nation (especially if victory was within reach). He could have seen that refusing UNSC seat is madness, as is gifting Cocoo island away. He could have seen the folly of signing IWT.

Too true. BUT those were heady days when a half-naked fakir had overthrown an empire and violence was anathema to his successors. Also NAM was useful in its own way as leverage against the west and its neo-imperialist ideas.


This is the fundamental myth of India
UK gave freedom to all its other colonies within 15 years

The decolonisation happened because white fertility fell and UK no longer could keep up the ratio of white soldiers to Indian soldiers
and after WW2, UK no longer had the stomach for large scale genocide

The kaiser and hitler killed off 2 mil UK soldiers and bankrupted the UK which then decided to dump its colonies

In a lot of ways the fall of the UK empire is similar to the long decline of Rome after over-reach

An empire sooner or later hires local natives as troops and soon gets addicted ( 3 mil Indian troops in WW2 ) and after a while can no longer control them

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Postby bala » 08 May 2008 10:57

nkumar wrote:
surinder wrote:(PS: His vision in matters of education etc. were very useful for India. We must acknowledge that.)


I am looking for some references regarding the original idea of IITs. I heard somewhere that original idea of IITs was of someone else, as opposed to the popular belief that it was JLN's. Surinder, any idea?


Yes, IIT was not Nehru's idea. Google up Indiresen ex-director of IIT-M who wrote an article on this topic. IIT is a Bengali consipiracy/ bright wave.. Sanku knows about this topic.

Regarding Nehru, he might have done some tactical maneuvers that looked like he made the right decisions but like the saying goes, winning battles and losing the war ain't a statesman or leader. Nehru's blunders overshadow all the good he may have done. Tibet, Kashmir and UNSC are glaring blunders and 1962 is also in my books with Krishna Menon a disgrace to India. Calling it otherwise or papering it by any other deeds is besides the point.

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Postby svinayak » 09 May 2008 04:22


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Postby Karan Dixit » 11 May 2008 08:38


PARIS (AFP) - Several hundred demonstrators rallied Saturday in Paris in the name of Tibet with a call on the international community to step up pressure on China.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080510/wl ... 0510191919

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Postby bala » 11 May 2008 22:38

The worrisome rise of pro-China youth

As human rights protesters dogged the Beijing Olympics torch relay, as supporters of Tibet condemned the violent crackdown in Lhasa, and as Darfur activists demanded change in China's Sudan policy, Chinese young people worked themselves into a different form of righteous anger. In online forums and chat rooms, they blasted Beijing's leaders for not being tougher in Tibet. They agitated for boycotts against Western businesses based in nations that object to Beijing's policies, and they directed fury against anyone critical of China.

The anger even has spread to American college campuses. In April, Chinese students at the University of Southern California blasted a visiting Tibetan monk with angry questions about Tibet's alleged history of slavery and other controversial topics. When the monk tried to respond, the students chanted, "Stop lying! Stop lying!"

At the University of Washington, hundreds protested outside during a speech by the Dalai Lama, chanting, "Dalai, your smiles charm, your actions harm."

Nationalist tide

The explosion of nationalist sentiment, especially among young people, might seem shocking, but it's been simmering for a long time. In fact, Beijing's leadership, for all its problems, might be less hard-line than China's youth, the country's future. If China ever were to become a truly free political system, it might actually become more, not less, aggressive.

China's youth nationalism tends to explode over sparks like the Tibet unrest. It burst into violent anti-American protests after NATO's accidental bombing of China's embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, in 1999. (Most young Chinese I've met don't believe that the bombing was an accident.)

Hardly uneducated know-nothings, young nationalists tend to be middle-class urbanites. Far more than rural Chinese, who remain mired in poverty, these urbanites have benefited enormously from the country's three decades of economic growth. They also have begun traveling and working abroad. They can see that Shanghai and Beijing are catching up to Western cities, that Chinese multinationals can compete with the West, and they've lost their awe of Western power.

Many middle-aged Chinese intellectuals are astounded by the differences between them and their younger peers. Academics I know, members of the Tiananmen generation, are shocked by some students' disdain for foreigners and, often, disinterest in liberal concepts such as democratization.

Beijing has long encouraged nationalism. Over the past decade, the government has introduced school textbooks that focus on past victimization of China by outside powers. The state media, such as the People's Daily, which hosts one of the most strongly nationalist Web forums, also highlight China's perceived mistreatment at the hands of the United States and other powers.

In recent years, too, the Communist Party has opened its membership and perks to young urbanites, cementing the belief that their interests lie with the regime, not with political change - and that democracy might lead to unrest and instability.

Fear of a backlash

Some officials privately worry that nationalist protests, even ones targeting other countries, ultimately will transform into unrest against Beijing, like previous outbursts of patriotism in China before communist rule in 1949, which eventually turned into nationwide convulsions.

In 2005, Beijing initially fed the anti-Japan feelings with public statements. Then Beijing - which depends on Tokyo as a crucial trading partner and source of aid - tried to tamp down tensions by keeping much of the protest details out of the state media. Ultimately, though, Beijing had to roll out riot-control police in large cities.

In the long run, this explosive nationalism calls into question what kind of democracy China could be. Many Chinese academics, for example, believe that, at least in the early going, a freer China might become a more dangerous China. By contrast, the current Chinese regime has launched broad informal contacts with Taiwan's new rulers, including an April meeting between Chinese President Hu Jintao and incoming Taiwanese Vice President Vincent Siew - contacts denounced by many bloggers. One day, Hu might find even he can't defend himself before a mob of angry Chinese students.

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Postby Keshav » 11 May 2008 22:42



:lol: :lol:

When did being pro-(insert your country here) become worrisome? Aren't people supposed to be pro-theircountry?

Oh, white people, you are funny...

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Postby vivek_ahuja » 11 May 2008 22:49

Keshav wrote:


:lol: :lol:

When did being pro-(insert your country here) become worrisome? Aren't people supposed to be pro-theircountry?

Oh, white people, you are funny...


Yeah, that may have been a wrong term used there, but the article itself is very interesting to say the least, and hardly surprising.

The Chinese have been investing in just this sort of thinking of their nation's youth ever since the late 1980s. Now that its beginning to pay off, the point is that China's neighbours who will have to deal with this future will in fact wish for the past...

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Postby Sanjay M » 11 May 2008 23:19

Keshav wrote:


:lol: :lol:

When did being pro-(insert your country here) become worrisome? Aren't people supposed to be pro-theircountry?

Oh, white people, you are funny...


Uhh, and when these "pro-China" youth are confronting us on the battlefield, will you still be laughing? Or will you be fleeing to one of those white countries?

Sorry, but I find any rise in Chinese nationalism to be disturbing, as their authoritarian govt would tend to stoke up such feelings to keep the public on their side. But hey, I'm just looking out for India's security interests, rather than focusing on defending China from Western critics -- silly me, thinking this was an Indian defense forum rather than a China defense forum.

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Postby Keshav » 11 May 2008 23:21

Sanjay M wrote:Or will you be fleeing to one of those white countries?

Sorry, but I find any rise in Chinese nationalism to be disturbing, as their authoritarian govt would tend to stoke up such feelings to keep the public on their side. But hey, I'm just looking out for India's security interests, rather than focusing on defending China from Western critics -- silly me, thinking this was an Indian defense forum rather than a China defense forum.


Sorry, I knew jingos didn't know how to laugh but I decided to take my chances any way. Plus, I was born and live in a white country so tell me - where would I go? Minorities in America have a free pass to make jokes about white people. Believe me, it comes with citizenship. But not really with a green card.

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Postby Karan Dixit » 11 May 2008 23:34

Regarding: The worrisome rise of pro-China youth


If rise in nationalism is detrimental to well being of other countries then the rise in nationalism in the said country will be seen as something evil, e.g. , Germany's rise during World War II.

What is worrisome is rising bigotry among Chinese youth. This bigotry is the root cause of their heinous crime in Tibet.

Chinese believe that Tibetans are inferior as such Tibetans deserve to be stomped on. It is this trend among Chinese youth that the article was attempting to highlight.

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Rise of nationalism

Postby joshvajohn » 11 May 2008 23:47

Recent spirit of nationalism in China is the desperate attempt to hold the power of PRC both in spirit and power. Ofcourse it is violent in order to maintain the oppression of Tibetians or even elimination of them in order to have their land Tibet. It is the PRC's thinktank which has created this emotions among the Chinese youth in order to maintain their power not only over the Tibet but also over their own. Otherwise the sympathy of Chinese towards Tibetians was turning into anger against the Red army. Even with the Tibetian delegates of Dalai the first thing Chinese wanted is to get affirmation that China is one country and these delegates confess that they are Chinese and then just broke it very symbolically and in a humiliating way.

Side comment: I think India has to get some powerful government to stand upto China. The CPIM should be voted out all the powers they have. They are the traitor of this country (for their support of China and being against Indian US deal) not willing to allow it to be developed nor it be secured of national threat from different corners.

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Postby vsudhir » 12 May 2008 07:32

All that olympic torch fracas casting a pall however slight on the might and greatness and superiority and splendour of China! China! China!.....

Nothing new. Its happened before. The scene below look familiar? It'll be redux 2008 come August....

Image
Last edited by vsudhir on 12 May 2008 08:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nayak » 12 May 2008 07:54

vsudhir, Please format your url. your post is skewing up the page.

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Postby Philip » 12 May 2008 15:17

I do not know the truth about retribution,but the Burmese savaged the peaceful protest by the Bhuddhist monks earlierthis year.The junta has been rewarded by the worst cyclone and death count in living memory.So too have the Chinese savaged the Tibetan monks and people and what will be in store for them? One does not wish harm on anyone,but nature-"the Gods" sometimes have a way of showing their displeasure.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 26416.html

Thousands flee buildings as earthquake strikes

Monday, 12 May 2008

Thousands of people were evacuated from buildings today as an earthquake measuring 7.5 on the Richter scale struck western China.
The tremor was felt as far away as Thailand and Vietnam.


The earthquake struck 57 miles north-west of the Sichuan provincial capital of Chengdu at 2.28pm (0628 GMT), the US Geological Survey said on its website. It said the quake was centred 6.2 miles below the surface.


An eyewitness in Chengdu, reached by phone, said people flooded from buildings, but there was no immediate sign of damage or injuries.


The quake was centred on the eastern edge of the Tibetan plateau, where mountains rise sharply and the population density is generally thin.


In the Chinese capital, Beijing, about 930 miles away, buildings swayed for more than two minutes but there were no immediate reports of damage or injuries.


Thousands of frightened office workers and shoppers fled buildings, including offices of the organising committee for the Beijing Olympics. People lingered outside buildings in the central business district even 30 minutes after the shaking stopped.


A magnitude 7.5 earthquake is considered a major event, capable of causing widespread damage and injuries in populated areas.


In the Taiwanese capital of Taipei, 100 miles off the south-eastern Chinese coast, buildings swayed when the quake hit. There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage.


The quake was felt as far away as the Vietnamese capital of Hanoi, where some people hurried out of swaying office buildings and into the streets downtown. A building in the Thai capital of Bangkok also was evacuated after the quake was felt there.

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Postby Raja Ram » 12 May 2008 15:46

Gentle readers,

Chengdu is the key center along with kunming for the strategic forces of China including the PLA armies that are tasked with building capabilities to match India or take offensive measures against India.

Some of those Dong Fengs that are targeting India are based there. I am not sure about the siesmic zone Chengdu comes under, but a quake in these regions are likely to have some implications. Hope someone in the Indian establishment is taking note.

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Postby Philip » 12 May 2008 18:00

Retribution? Tragic that so many young lives have been lost.A human life ois a human life whether it is Chinese or Tibetan,a lesson that the leadership of the PRC have sadly still to learn.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1948775 ... apped.html

Earthquake in China: 900 students trapped
By Richard Spencer in Beijing
Last Updated: 1:03PM BST 12/05/2008
Around 900 high school students have been buried after a powerful earthquake rocked China, collapsing buildings and killing dozens of people.
A patient is evacuated from a hospital in Shaanxi province

AP
Chongqing residents gather in a car park after fleeing their buildings

REUTERS
The earthquake broke underground pipes, causing water and mud to flow across the streets in the city of Chengdu
The trapped students are located in Dujiangyan City close to the earthquake's epicentre in the south-western province of Sichuan, the state news agency reports.

Nothing more is yet known about their plight.

More than 107 people have already been confirmed dead in the quake, which had a magnitude of 7.8 on the Richter scale and caused buildings to sway thousands of miles away in Beijing, Taiwan and even Bangkok.


The quake hit 58 miles north-west of the province's capital city of Chengdu, but deaths have been reported as far away as the northwestern province of Gansu, where at least 10 people were killed.

The first reports of deaths came from Chongqing in Sichuan province, where two primary schools collapsed killing four students. At least one other person died, and another 100 were injured, according to the authorities.

Immediate reports told of residents fleeing their offices and homes in panic as they shifted violently in the shock, just before 2.30pm local time. Television pictures showed some residents clutching bloodied faces.

The army has been mobilised to help with relief efforts, while the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, was said to be on his way to the region.

The epicentre was in the rural county of Wenchuan. Immediate but unconfirmed reports said that some buildings, including the county hospital, had fallen down. But a regional emergency planning official said he had no full picture of conditions there as telephone lines were either down or overloaded.

The local government issued a statement saying that buildings and roads had been damaged and people injured but gave no estimates of casualties.

Wenchuan is at the tip of Tibetan-occupied areas of the country, and generally sparsely populated. Its total official population is 110,000.

South-eastern Sichuan and the greater Chongqing area are among the most densely populated in China, however. Chengdu's population is more than 12 million.

The strength of the earthquake and the extent of the affected area suggest that the death toll is likely to grow.

In Beijing, almost 1,400 miles away, buildings swayed for two minutes, while the effects were felt all over the country. In Shanghai, the Jinmao tower, the country's tallest building, was evacuated, along with many other of the city's skyscrapers, while residents reported feeling the tremors even in Taiwan and Hong Kong.

It was also felt in neighbouring countries as far south as Bangkok, Thailand.

Wenchuan's most famous residents are the pandas of the Wolong nature reserve, the world's largest collection and breeding centre for the species. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

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Postby kuldipchager » 13 May 2008 01:08

As long Indo/Russian Treaty of Freindship/Co-opration is active,we don't

have to affraide of anybody.

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Postby G Subramaniam » 13 May 2008 06:37

kuldipchager wrote:As long Indo/Russian Treaty of Freindship/Co-opration is active,we don't

have to affraide of anybody.


It went inactive in 1986 , when Gorbachev made up with Deng

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 13 May 2008 07:51

The Big One hits Szechuan. Last time Szechaun got hit, they said only minor damage, and only 4 dead. They meant Poliburo members. Some 400,000,000,000 died.
An expert told CNN the 7.9-magnitude quake at about 2:28 p.m. Monday (6:28 a.m. GMT) was the largest the region has seen "for over a generation."


This one is VERY bad - the death toll STARTS at 10,000-plus. That means that in a week it will become 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 using the western/ UN casualty toll inflation algorithm.
However, Beijing reportedly escaped any damage to any of its venues for the Olympic Games starting in August.


ArrahoAkbal! By the grace of ATM and Mao!

In Fuyang, 660 miles to the east, chandeliers in the lobby of the Buckingham Palace Hotel swayed.
:roll:

If they name an entire hotel after a latrine, what do they call their latrines?

while it was also felt in Thailand, Taiwan, Vietnam and Pakistan.


How come not Yindoostan? Different plate? Connection broken under the Himalayas?

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Postby Bade » 13 May 2008 08:07

How come not Yindoostan? Different plate? Connection broken under the Himalayas?

I have been wondering about that too. Me thinks, that is the case. It was felt in Beijing but not at Writers Bldg, HQ of the Beijing clique.

The Indo-Aus plate sliding under the belly of the dragon swings around the NE states all the way down. For some unexplained reason Pakistan is joined with the Asian plate...well at least the fault line image render claims so at least. So the energy exchange between the two regions (india & china) is nearly negligible :eek: though our western cousins seem to be doing GUBO even here.

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