Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

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Muppalla
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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Muppalla » 01 Dec 2008 00:14

Malegaon case: Purohit granted bail in fake arms license case

30 Nov 2008, 1056 hrs IST, PTI


NASHIK: A local court here has granted conditional bail to Malegaon blast accused Lieutenant Colonel Shrikant Prasad Purohit in fake arms license
case.

Judge V V Joshi granted him conditional bail on Rs 15,000 personal bond, Purohit's advocate Avinash Bhide said.
A fake arms license case was registered against Purohit by the Sarkarwada police here on November 15 following a complaint filed by his Pune-based friend Shirish Date.

The complaint stated that he (Purohit) had prepared fake documents to provide date with arms license. Purohit was handed over to the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad and will be brought to Mumbai.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby vera_k » 01 Dec 2008 00:18

brihaspati wrote:The whole Malegaon episode followed up by Mumbai offensive shows the political paralysis and ineffectiveness of the entire state. Gandhiji once brought the idea of derecognizing a state that was harmful for Indian interests - and construct a new one. Perhaps that is the direction to take?


Thank you for stating this. For a while I was hoping that this Malegaon episode and the pay commission imbroglio will force the armed forces to remove the politicians and call for a new constitution even though it seemed a far fetched idea. But yes, a new constitution is needed. Of the existing political parties Congress does not believe that change is needed, thus question is whether one can be achieved by electing a BJP supermajority or if one will be forced on us due to actions by external forces.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby brihaspati » 01 Dec 2008 00:45

Er.. no one has got banned for arguing Gandhian or Jesusian Peaceful Non-Cooperation, and no one is likely to. Arguing for the Anschluss or the equivalent of the Taliban, Pol Pot or Hutu Purity regime, or suggesting that the uniformed MILITARY start "non-cooperating", or appealing for foreign invasions of India, may get you banned in "know" time as the kind postor above says.


Oh, I did not mention the military in my Gandhian "derecognition" - I said "we", and my impression of BR-fites is that majority are not in active military service (would be very difficult to post from in-service unless there is MI lurking somewhere behind the admin of BR - not a bad thought though, could be a good way of gleaning "thought processes" and keeping an eye out for "rogues" on behalf of the regime - :) ). Derecognition of a state by its people does not necessarily mean Anschluss or a Pol-Pot regime - but I specifically mentioned Gandhiji's method - which I interpret as a political one that shows people why they should not identify with a "harmful" state and regime, and deintegrate them from this "harmful structure" - for to me the root causes of the ineffectiveness against terror lies in a built in mechanism that encourages small factions to wield disproportionate influence on the state and is against the principle of democracy. On one hand though I do believe that the military is "starved" in India, and they do deserve to be "fed" more properly - hopefully that does not make me a Prussian Junker or SS revivalist!

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Dec 2008 02:14

I think what Brihaspati is talking about is what is called in massaland a Constitutional Convention.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby enqyoob » 01 Dec 2008 03:06

Or a "MoveOn dot org". I am all for internet-based or other communication based mass movements, but ultimately their "pressure" must come in the form of voting power, to remain within the Constitution.

If some entity breaks the Constitution and grabs power, as in Pakistan, then I would say mass movements that argue for complete non-cooperation and civil disobedience are halal. But unless that happens, calls to extra-legal mass movements are simply the equivalent of a tantrum to get what one cannot get through fair ballot-based processes. The trouble with tolerating that is, it leads to chaos and violence in short order, and all society breaks down.

What happened in Jammu recently is a Case Study that some kind soul should undertake for publication in SRR, before that is usurped by the Other Side. There the "constitutional" government, for various reasons, denied very proper legal rights to a minority. The Governor knuckled under to blatant blackmail and threats of violence (all extra-constitutional) but then signed a "legal" order to side with the blackmailers. The citizens were left with no alternative but to declare civil disobedience, but they carefully avoided getting into violence, and made sure that they remained in allegiance to the nation and the Constitution. A very brave exercise, and they won.

(Pls don't try that with the BRF Admins - we are just like everyone else, we come here to read and post, but also have to read everyone else's post and do the best we can to keep the forum from getting banned, and keep it from becoming something that we should be ashamed of. No pleasure derived from banning ppl, believe me.)

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby brihaspati » 01 Dec 2008 20:33

I guess, I am getting a lot of forum moderators concerned. :) I think I should make it clear - that if you can look at all my posts collectively, you will find that my general tenor is that of the majjhim pantha - I am against immediate rash military adventures, I am against putting all Muslims into a single bracket, etc., but none probably for altruitsic or Buddhist alibis - I simply do not see them as most efficient strategies for the objective concerned. The reasons I mentioned the Gandhian method, was not to copy it, but the essential argument behind it taken politically. In the short term, I have been crying hoarse in various forums here to convince people to take the electoral route - to brutally penalize electorally any regime that hapens to be in power when "terror" happens. But I also believe that mere "voting" will not bring fundamental change - that voting, has to reflect the basic Gandhian or societal transition argument that the "voting" or popular will is expressed to change the "system" through which the state manifests itself and maintains itself - and not just changes individuals or persons - it is about the fundamental ideological bases of the state that has to be reformed - and definitely it has to come from popular representation.

There are senior judiciary and other members of the "opinion celebrity" in India who try to represent the Constitution similar to that of medieval claims about the "Vedas" - the inimmutable "truth" - this typically reduces to talk about the "spirit" of the constitution since strictly speaking the Constitution has been amended many times and they have had to tolerate it. When we talk about the "spirit" - that becomes a matter of individual or group interpretation, and it goes downhill towards vagueness from there. The Constitution cannot be inimmutable, as like any practical text of social relations and behaviour, it can only see what it has already seen - and talk within the context of its writer's experience.

There are lots of articles of the Constitution needing change, article 370 for example. Can we change it through "mere voting" in a bicameral system where the chief executive is indirectly elected, and practical executive/judicial initiation powers are concentrated in a collective each member of which is amenable to manipulation from multiple small factional groups ? In our overwhelming fear of preventing dictators from coming to power we have effectively paralyzed the state - where just as in "bad" dictatorships sycophants and courtiers can flourish, depriving the nation of the valuable services of dedicated professionals. Why did we have to tolerate a Shivraj Patil while terror sharpened its claws ? because we have a state where the apparatus of state power is dependent on the apparatus of personal power - the actual principle of dictatorship. I was merely suggesting to think of a simplified system of presidential form, where a directly elected person accountable in elections to the people corresponds to apparatus of personal power dependent on apparatus of state power. The "voting" to reflect action towards change of that order in the form of the state - maybe not in one step but in many steps.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Manu » 02 Dec 2008 00:25

While it is obvious by now that UPA will do nothing about the Mumbai outrage, except play musical chairs, I am turning my attention back to the probe on the "Real Terrorists".

Please keep this as a background note.

Now, let us step back in time, a couple of days before the Mumbai "incident" when the UPA goons were busy in framing charges and playing a dangerous game of political oneupmanship (therby endangering India's Internal Security in the process)
BJP and its ideology inspired by Hitler: Congress (November 25th)
"Hitler inspires the BJP and its ideology in a sustained manner. They want to impose POTA (Prevention of Terrorism Act) when members of minority community are arrested on the charges of terrorism while they speak in support of those accused of the Malegaon blast because they are part of the Sangh Parivar," said party spokesman Veerappa Moily.

Link
The Congress on Tuesday sought to turn the heat on the BJP on the Malegaon blast case issue, alleging that the internal security of the country was threatened by two "As -- Advani and Abhinav Bharat". Alleging that outsourcing of terror has become the "new cult with some of the outfits of the BJP", Congress leader (and AICC media cell chairperson) M Veerappa Moily reminded reporters that "Adolf Hitler had inspired" the saffron party and its ideology. Predicting an electoral "waterloo" for the saffron party, he claimed that people have seen through the saffron plans of communalisation of terror.


On November 25, News Reports even started linking VHP general secretary Pravin Togadia, a "Business House" and a Delhi Based Doctor in this "probe". The 'Probe" became even more bizzare when allegations were thrown around that the Plan was to "assisinate" RSS leaders - Mohan Bhagwat and Indresh Kumar - linked with the RSS Muslim Outreach orgs. - Rashtriya Muslim Manch.

Then on November 27, the latest we are told is that Malegaon blast suspects' goal was to make India a 'Hindu Rashtra'. Read this: TOI link

Infact, Outlook Magazine, the Bastion of Objective Journalism, started maintaining a Web page titled: "Dossiers / Hindutva Terror"
See this

Had the Mumbai "incident" not taken place, the set-up was mostly finished. Swami owns up to blast, November 27
Stringent MCOCA provisions say a statement made before a judicial officer can be treated as a confession.


Then, unfortunately, the Mumbai Incident happened. And TOI(let) rapidly changes its point of view.
Link
India battles to win
29 Nov 2008, 1211 hrs IST, Tarun Vijay

India knew about al-Qaida's threat to attack Mumbai, but it played it down for apparent reasons of vote bank politics. A United States embassy's communiqué issued in August 2006 had warned about India being a target of al-Qaida. Though it was issued cautioning about a possible attack around the Independence Day that year, it should have served as an alarm bell to the Indian establishment and activated them to gather more intelligence inputs on al-Qaida strategies on India.

One newspaper that campaigned against the Hindu Right as a Talibani propagandist, specially picking on Malegaon case, gave a headline-'as forces fought terrorists, BJP is busy seeking votes'.

And when time permits, there would be many questions that would have to be answered. Did India pay a heavy price of diverting all security attention to a Malegaon probe giving the Mumbai attackers an unattended space and time they needed? In an interesting reference to it, a highly reputed Army officer Lt. General Ashok Joshi (retd.) wrote," The indirect cost of the Malegaon-blast probe -- still climbing -- is very considerable. It is no one's case that the Malegaon blast probe is either unimportant or unnecessary. It appears, however, that the probe exclusively held the attention of the security apparatus until November 26, 2008, when the disaster occurred. This could well have been an unintended consequence, but it was terrible."

The reporters whose every single line while reporting Malegaon was laced with 'Hindu terrorism' saw to it quite consciously not to mention 'Islamic Jihadi' even once in the passing. But there were efforts by a couple of media chatterers on the screen to mention 'now we have Hindu terrorism too' while discussing Mumbai's agony!

The same crowd which has been singularly responsible for providing shields to the jihadi terrorism and speaking in the abusive language against the nationalist saffron side, was most vocal to question why police is not being given the appropriate arsenal, sophisticated guns and a proper combat ready uniform.


Rajinder Puri Opines: Link
The Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) has become the Attracting TV Squad. Democracy gives us freedom of speech. The police exercise this freedom with gusto. The ATS said that the Malegaon blast accused could have also used RDX procured from the army for the Samjhauta Express blast. The army said it did not store RDX. The ATS said it did not say RDX was used, it had said it could have been used. Now it was saying it had not been used. The media blared: "The ATS has backtracked!" The Railway Police said, not so fast! There were traces of RDX in the Samjhauta Express blast. Then the Haryana police chipped in: it said the accused was involved in the train blast....

Even cricket doesn't have so many experts giving a running commentary. People say cops are speaking in different voices because they are under orders of different political bosses. But is it not also possible that some cops compete for their five minutes of fame through national TV? If the ATS gets publicity, why shouldn't the railway police and Haryana police? To end the confusion, there could be one spokesman if terrorism was probed by a single federal agency. But politicians oppose that. They say its powers would be misused.

All this free speech is hugely entertaining, no doubt. It's even better than the TV soaps! But, in the process, what has it done (and continues to do) to the Malegaon case, and to the war against terrorism? It has all but destroyed police professionalism. Consider this twist in the ATS probe. A report that can only be sourced to the ATS itself claimed that data gleaned from a laptop belonging to an accused revealed a plot to assassinate RSS deputy chief Mohan Bhagwat. The leak helpfully added that the accused owning the laptop was linked to several other RSS leaders. The RSS quickly responded. It accused the government of trying to split the organisation.

That should be the least of the RSS concerns. How could the ATS broadcast this information, regardless of whether it was true or not, and endanger the life of Bhagwat? Professionalism demanded that it should have passed on the information to the IB for appropriate measures to enhance Bhagwat's security. Instead, it has provided a preconceived theory which could easily be used as cover for every potential assassin to target Bhagwat and to evade exposure. By playing games with the terrorism probes, politicians are playing with fire.


Please also read This

All the above nonesense ultimately leads to this: Link from Arab Online
While analyzing the recent Mumbai blasts, the killing of Hemant Karare, the Chief of the Anti Terrorist Squad, can not be taken as a mere chance. He was the person who had revealed the involvement of the Indian army in the Malegaon blasts. It is said that that Hemant Karare’s report on the involvement of Indian army officers In Malegaon blasts had exposed the real colossal face of the Indian army and shattered the image of the Indian Armed Forced in the eyes of the Muslim minority. According to the media reports Karare had been put under a very heavy pressure to divert the Malegaon blasts investigations and remove the names of the army officers from his reports. But Karare was most insistent that he would not let any pressure effect his investigations. It were his recommendations that some serving and retired Indian army officers were arrested including Lt.Col.Prasad Purohit and Col. (R) S.S.Raikar.The involvement of the army officers in such a heinous crime was not a very pleasant news for the Indian army. The army officials were considering ATS chief Hemant Karare responsible for this disgrace and dishonor. When we look at the Mumbai-action, it seems it was a commando type action. Every step was very well-timed and calculated, no loop-hole no ambiguity. All happened in the twinkling of an eye. There could be chances that some Indian army officers are behind all this just as they were behind the Malegaon bomb blasts.

It would be a grave slip if we ignore the fact that Mumbai Blasts have provided the Indian law enforcing agencies a golden chance of framing the already crushed Muslim minority of India. Just after the blasts so many Muslims have been arrested in the name of investigation.
Pakistan has ever been a peace loving country. It has nothing to do with terrorism. If Pakistan were a terrorist country, it would never be the US ally in the war against terror. Before framing Pakistan in all terrorist activities; India should see its own face in the mirror.


And these two Gems as well:
Mumbai Carnage: Kashmir connection?
During the February 2007 bombing of the Samjhauta Express, purported to be a symbol of friendship between India and Pakistan, the blame was appropriated squarely-- and we now know unfairly-- to Pakistan. For his credit, the then Indian Home Minister Shivaji Patil had tried to calm the anti- Pakistan venomous rhetoric in the country by stating the obvious, when he said: "whoever is behind the incident is against peace and wants to spoil our growing relationship with other countries". Thanks to the recent astounding revelations from probe into the Malegaon blasts the blame for the newly resurrected case of Samjhauta Express bombing is being put on those who reportedly carried out the attacks—some of India's own men in uniform. One cannot help wondering what the then Home Minster knew at that time about the truth of the matter. He could not have let "other countries" (read Pakistan) go scot-free for a pittance.


India going towards Hindu Talibanization?

Talk about setting up Booby Traps for the next Government....

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby brihaspati » 02 Dec 2008 00:35

On the other hand - this can be turned around on the Arab online - is it possible that those who deliberately planted "disinformation" within the ATS were the same people who collaborated with the Islamic terrorists as part of the diversionary tactics - and this was the reason why all the top intelligence officers within the ATS likely to have known a lot about the real background to the Malegaon blasts were "prompted" to rush together into a "risk zone" (a highly unusual military practice of putting all eggs in one basket) so that they could be eliminated together?

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby svinayak » 02 Dec 2008 00:40

Manu wrote:

Talk about setting up Booby Traps for the next Government....


Thanks for the news links.
We can actually now pin down this manufactured consent between news editors, "intellectuals"
and leftist groups which vthakur was here

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 00:46

I always wonder why now? The laucnhing of the attack might be tied to the ATS frenzy. From what we know from Kasab, they started about Nov 22. So why that date?

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby svinayak » 02 Dec 2008 00:48

ramana wrote:I always wonder why now? The laucnhing of the attack might be tied to the ATS frenzy. From what we know from Kasab, they started about Nov 22. So why that date?

Previous week the security was tight.
It was relaxed only on the week of Nov 24.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 01:25

But they started on Nov 22. how did they know the security will be realxed. Is it related to the excess of foreigners in Mumbai and upcoming Thanksgiving in US and celebration by expatriates?

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby brihaspati » 02 Dec 2008 02:24

I always wonder why now? The laucnhing of the attack might be tied to the ATS frenzy. From what we know from Kasab, they started about Nov 22. So why that date?



22nd-27th of November must be the second half of the Islamic month of Dhu'l Qadah - and as far as I can remember, this is a very significant month in the Islamic calendar. This is the first pilgrimage or Umrah that the Muslims made after the migration/hijra to Medina under Muhammad. The Muslims came on the morning of the fourth day of Dhual-Qadah, in the 7th year afyet migration, after the treaty of Hudaybiyyah the previous year. The entire event lasted for three days. Any pilgrimage during the month of Dhul-Qadah is named a "major pilgrimage", or just "pilgrimage" (Hajj), while pilgrimages on all other month are called "minor pilgrimage" (Umrah). The Muslims were armed even though the prevalent practice was not to carry weapons on pilgrimage. The treaty had provided for temporary abandonment and evacuation of the town of Mecca, by the Qureysh when the Muslims entered it, and was primarily meant as a show of strength by Muhammad to the Qureysh.

Dear moderators, I guess you will find the next highly uncomfortable - but I find it highly significant in the context of Islamic viewpoint to mount the attack on Mumbai at this date -before axing this please consider actual terror activities described unemotionally and compare with Mumbai outcomes A highly significant incident in this month was the destruction of the Banu Quraiza Jews : After a siege lasting for 25 days, the Jews surrendered:

Sahih Bukhari records:
[Original Sahih Al-Bukhari]
The women and children were then separated from their husbands, others were put under the care of Abdullah, a renegade Jew. All the goods and possessions of the B. Qurayzah Jews, their camels and flocks were all brought as spoils of war. The B. Qurayzah Jewish men were handcuffed behind their backs with their women and children having already been separated. They were placed under the charge of Mohammad ibn Maslama, the assassin of Ka’b ibn Ashraf, to be sent to Medina before their execution in batches. A long trench was dug in the marketplace of Medina. The Prisoners were then taken there, made to kneel down and beheaded in a group of five or six. Muhammad was personally present to witness this slaughter. Ali and Zubayr cut off the heads of the Jews in front of Muhammad. Sourcing from Al-Waqidi, Tabari writes:

“…the messenger of God commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the B. Qurayzah. Then he sat down, and Ali and al-Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence.” Ibn Ishaq writes that they were taken in groups to Muhammad for beheading in front of him.

Tabari further writes:
‘The messenger of God went out into the marketplace of Medina and had trenches dug in it; then he sent for them and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in groups. Among them were the enemy of God, Huyayy b. Akhtab, and Ka’b b. Asad, the head of the tribe. They numbered 600 or 700-the largest estimate says they were between 800 and 900. As they were being taken in groups to the Messenger of God, they said to Ka’b b. Asad, “Ka’b, what do you understand. Do you not see that the summoner does not discharge [anyone] and that those of you who are taken away do not come back? By God, it is death!” the affair continued until the Messenger of God had finished with them.’

The Sahi (authentic) Hadith of Abu Dawud: Book 14, Number 2665:
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
No woman of Banu Qurayzah was killed except one. She was with me, talking and laughing on her back and belly (extremely), while the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) was killing her people with the swords. Suddenly a man called her name: Where is so-and-so? She said: I I asked: What is the matter with you? She said: I did a new act. She said: The man took her and beheaded her. She said: I will not forget that she was laughing extremely although she knew that she would be killed.”

Ther very old Jewish man Az-Zabir had saved the life of a Muslim convert, Thabit b. Qays in the Bu’ath war. When Az-Zabir was about to be beheaded Thabit requested Muhammad to save the life of Az-Zabir and his family as a return to his favor. Muhammad agreed. Az-Zabir then asked Thabit b. Qays about the Jewish leaders such as Ka’b b. Asad and Huayy b. Akhtab, as he preferred to die rather than to live without them. Az-Zabir replied, “Then I ask you for the sake of the favor I once did for you to join me to my kinsmen, for by God there is no good in living after them. I will not wait patiently for God, not even [the time needed] to take the bucket of a watering trough, until I meet my dear ones.” So Thabit brought him forward, and he was beheaded. Abu Bakr commented “He will meet them, by God, in the Gehenna, there to dwell forever and forever.”
[this is the battle that gives explicit culling of all adult males including those that had begun to show pubic hair] Hadith from Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 38, Number 4390: Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.
After executing all the adult male Jews, Muhammad sent Sa’d b. Zayd al-Ansari with some captive women and children from the B. Qurayzah to Najd to sell them in the slave market. While we do not have an accurate price of a female slave during that time, Ibn Sa’d writes that Khadijah, Muhammad’s first wife, bought her slave, Zayd b. Haritha, (who would later become Muuhammad’s adopted son), for four hundred Dirhams at the slave market of Ukaz, Mecca. [the price of young slave varied from five hundred dirhams to eight hundred dirhams - Sunaan Abu Dawud hadith numbers, 3946 and 4563]. Among the captive was a young woman called Rayhanh bt. ‘Amr b. Khunafah and took her as his concubine. It is said that when Muhammad offered to make her his wife by embracing Islam, she declined. She preferred to remain a concubine to becoming a Muslim and said, “Messenger of God, rather leave me in your possession [as a concubine], for it is easier for me and for you.” [Some biographers claim that Rayhana eventually accepted Islam].

I think this is highly relevant as the terrorists were perhaps trying to send a message.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby svinayak » 02 Dec 2008 02:32

ramana wrote:But they started on Nov 22. how did they know the security will be realxed. Is it related to the excess of foreigners in Mumbai and upcoming Thanksgiving in US and celebration by expatriates?

Thanksgiving dinner was supposed to be served in the few restaurants in Taj and Leopold.
TO facilitate more travel friendly destination they have relaxed it. Tourism minister the previous week talked about promoting spiritual travel to India.

The message must have been relayed by the advance team in Mumbai for the group in Karachi to reach by nov 25.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Prem » 02 Dec 2008 02:36

Brishspati,
Please tell us crime of B Quraiza tribe and its similarity with the crime of Sunni Jihadis of Valley.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby brihaspati » 02 Dec 2008 02:46

The Banu Quraizah Jews were originally part of an alliance of Jewish tribes who managed and cultivated the oases farms in the desert of northern Arabia who had been alarmed at the systematic expulsion, sudden ambush and slaughter, and looting of all their camels, women and children. They tried to form alliances with expelled Jews and defend themselves against the Muslim raids. There is hardly any evidence of their having done any atrocity on the Muslims even by Islamic chroniclers - their only crime seems to have been ressisting ethnic cleansing, eviction from land which they had worked hard on, and defend their women and children - typically described by the chroniclers as "conspiracy against Islam and Allah's messenger". I don't see anywhere I can bracket them with the Sunni Jihadis in the valley.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 02:48

You should post your reasoning in the Mumbai terrorist attack thread but without the gory details. There is enough of that already there. So there is a Quranic linkage to the jihadis and Chabad House attack. And that shows the fundoo nature of the attackers and their backers.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Prem » 02 Dec 2008 02:52

AFAIK, Muhamamad charge them with crime of collaborating with his enemies after their leraders signed the deal with him. Is it not similar to the crime of Vally Jihadis?

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby brihaspati » 02 Dec 2008 03:13

AFAIK, Muhamamad charge them with crime of collaborating with his enemies after their leraders signed the deal with him. Is it not similar to the crime of Vally Jihadis?

Well, that is an acceptable logic -if the two cases were really compared superficially. However, the deal with the "Sunni Jihadis" in the valley, was broken by the Jihadis of the valley even when they were not attacked, their lands not taken away (article 370), their trade caravans (I guess trucks of fruit nowadays) were not ambushed, and their women definitely not looted and enslaved or sold off - in fact none of the Valley Jihadists' allies, "tribes" - Jihadis or "peaceful" Muslims were treated so within India - (before the Gujarat riots, even such accusations are hard to find in the media since 1947). But all of that were being done to the Jews - moreover, the chroniclers give no real reasons for their suspicions, and there is no formal proof that the Banu Quraizah's actually broke any treaty - this siege was simply a face saving measure suddenly undertaken by Muhammad after losing and almost dying in the battle of the trench. The description of the battle indicates that the Jews were not expecting him, and if they really broke any treaty with Muhammad they would have realized by now from the actions of Muslims and taken preparations - they did not come out to do battle, simply hoed themselves up as quickly as possible - most early raids by Muhammad were ambushes, and sudden, and on sudden excuses from "revelations by Allah" that so-and-so was contemplating treachery.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby enqyoob » 02 Dec 2008 08:33

Read this article REAL carefully. It becomes extremely scary.

Karkare’s last wish: Transfer me out of ATS
Surendra Gangan & Dayanand Kamath / DNA
Tuesday, December 02, 2008 04:15 IST

He met RR Patil barely an hour before his death

MUMBAI: Barely an hour before he was felled by terrorists, Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) chief Hemant Karkare had pleaded with state home minister RR Patil to move him to some other department. At one point during the meeting, he went to the extent of saying he wanted toquit the service.

Karkare gave vent to his emotions at a meeting the ATS team had with Patil, which ended around 9 pm that fateful night on Wednesday. Karkare told the minister he was fed up of working in the squad after the political pressure the team faced in the Malegaon blast investigation.

“He was not worried about the work pressure, but the political pressure and nasty allegations had upset him. Patil assured him that things would be set right in the next few days,” said an official closely related to transfers of officials.

The meeting was held at Patil’s official bungalow Chitrakut, and Karkare was on his way back home when he got information about the attack outside CST.

This was not the first time Karkare expressed his anguish. A few weeks earlier too he had sought a transfer. Patil and officials in the home department had convinced him to stay on, saying his experience in the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) and the way he was leading the investigations were invaluable.


I have received some independent opinions of Shri Karkare from people who knew him well. They considered him to be a super gent.

So WHY was he so upset? Was a man of such experience psyched out by whining from the supporters of a prisoner?
From the Opposition Party? Why?

So I must conclude that he was furious and distressed at the pressure he had been getting from his own employers. The Maharashtra government.

]Does this not make you VERY scared about the subsequent events?

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Muppalla » 02 Dec 2008 08:50

I pity him. I wish no other gent of his caliber should go thru the ordeal that he went. The content of this news report is what many people predicted.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2008 11:11

N^3, it looks like malegoan and the Terrorist attack were a covert operation that went horribly bad.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby pran » 02 Dec 2008 11:37

N3 That casts a shadow on the sugar baron , he preempted the news media and covered for RRPatil. He does not pass the smell test.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Neela » 02 Dec 2008 12:28

ramana wrote:N^3, it looks like malegoan and the Terrorist attack were a covert operation that went horribly bad.


Why arent we calling a spade a space.

For a simpleton like me, it looks like the whole Hindu Terrorism is a plant by the Congress which the Congress-allied faithful media kept peddling!

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2008 12:44

another bloody chapter in the blood soaked history of this military political cult hiding under garb of a religion.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby fanne » 02 Dec 2008 22:57

Then entered the Minister of State for Home Affairs Sri Prakash Jaiswal. He provided the comedy in an otherwise grim tragedy that Mumbai was experiencing for nearly 48 hours. He told the media on November 28, ‘terror could be a conspiracy hatched by right-wing Hindu parties’. Hindu parties — read the BJP? Yes. So Pakistan, or Lashkar-e- Toiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed or other Jihadi outfits are not the prime suspects!

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... AA84nwcg==

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby vsudhir » 03 Dec 2008 00:39

Singha wrote:another bloody chapter in the blood soaked history of this military political cult hiding under garb of a religion.


'bloody chapter' Singha saar?

Considering the entire history of the said cult, 'footnote' is more like it. Or more worryingly, using literary analogies, 'prologue' to a new chapter perhaps.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby svinayak » 03 Dec 2008 01:14

Neela wrote:
ramana wrote:N^3, it looks like malegoan and the Terrorist attack were a covert operation that went horribly bad.


Why arent we calling a spade a space.

For a simpleton like me, it looks like the whole Hindu Terrorism is a plant by the Congress which the Congress-allied faithful media kept peddling!



There is a EJ connection to this

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Prem » 03 Dec 2008 05:28

Acharya wrote:
Neela wrote:
ramana wrote:N^3, it looks like malegoan and the Terrorist attack were a covert operation that went horribly bad.


Why arent we calling a spade a space.

For a simpleton like me, it looks like the whole Hindu Terrorism is a plant by the Congress which the Congress-allied faithful media kept peddling!



There is a EJ connection to this

Overseas/ Domestic EJ have penetrated the GOI inner circle, detrimental for national security and soverignty. Kangress has invited the mortal enemies of our civilization to settle score with nationalistic forces. PSs knowlingly or unknowingly are being played by sinsiter elements. Muslims are already discredited and now is the turn of Hinuds etc in India to get the same treatment. Onlee one class of people benefit and they are EJs and their sponsers.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Muppalla » 03 Dec 2008 06:34

Prem wrote: Overseas/ Domestic EJ have penetrated the GOI inner circle, detrimental for national security and soverignty. Kangress has invited the mortal enemies of our civilization to settle score with nationalistic forces. PSs knowlingly or unknowingly are being played by sinsiter elements. Muslims are already discredited and now is the turn of Hinuds etc in India to get the same treatment. Onlee one class of people benefit and they are EJs and their sponsers.


Same EJs are helping Kangress by spreading a carnad called "All politicians are same" via their channels to make sure the street anger doesn't turn into a wave against Kangress. Equalizer game is at works.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby enqyoob » 03 Dec 2008 06:36

N^3, it looks like malegoan and the Terrorist attack were a covert operation that went horribly bad.


Now you have really scared me. I can't help thinking that there is some connection - that the murder of the top 3 terror/crime investigators in Maharashtra was not entirely a case of their being in the wrong place at the wrong instant.

How well is it proven that the captured pig and his dead partner were the ones who killed these 3? Where did the switch from the hijacked Police SUV to the Skoda take place?

Did you read the story about the Inspector who chased the Skoda and died grabbing the AK-47? That story sounded a bit too extreme. First, he got a walkie-talkie message that the pigs were in a Skoda. How did that happen, so fast?

The car zooms past the inspector, then the inspector jumps on his 2-wheeler and gives chase, and CUTS OFF the car before the checkpoint forcing it to make a U-turn (I don't see any 2-wheeler in the video or photo), then the inspector jumps off the 2-wheeler and rushes to the car door before the pig gets out... AND BEFORE ANYONE FROM THE CHECKPOST REACHES THERE! Sounds a bit fantastic, I certainly don't mean to impugn the heroism of the inspector if this story is true, I am just saying that there are quite a few planted stories around.

Where were the terrorists heading on that road? Is that the road to Sahar airport?

My take is that the Maharashtra ATS was set up, with a ton of planted evidence. There is no doubt that the Congress govt of Maharashtra fell for this convenient story and were delighted to go along, but it is not clear that they were the ones who set it up.

When the ATS Chief figured out that he had been had, he demanded to resign, and the pressure from the Govt became intense because they were going to look like 400% idiots.

The guys who did the setup could not afford for the whole scam to be exposed, so they went violent, and set in motion one of the many plans they had on the books, sending 10 useless pigs to provide the diversion for the murder of the 3 officers.

So I think the setup was still just to discredit the whole Indian anti-terror campaign. The silence of the Maharashtra Govt. becomes more and more suspicious when you think about this. It may be more due to sheer embarassment and panic that they are paralyzed.

The captured pig's "confessions" are bogus. He's taking "credit" for way too many things.
Also, the number of terrorists does not make any sense at all, reading the hotel guests' accounts. It sounds like wherever the guests ran, they were cut off from both ends of a hallway or staircase by terrorists. All this was done by 3? 4? terrorists? In a huge hotel? No way!!! They got the guests into a situation where they were hiding INSIDE the building for days when all they had to go was get outside, where safety awaited!!! The number of terrorists is being tremendously understated.

WHY??? It can only be because several of the terrorists melted away into the population.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Muppalla » 03 Dec 2008 06:46

narayanan wrote:The captured pig's "confessions" are bogus. He's taking "credit" for way too many things.
Also, the number of terrorists does not make any sense at all, reading the hotel guests' accounts. It sounds like wherever the guests ran, they were cut off from both ends of a hallway or staircase by terrorists. All this was done by 3? 4? terrorists? In a huge hotel? No way!!! They got the guests into a situation where they were hiding INSIDE the building for days when all they had to go was get outside, where safety awaited!!! The number of terrorists is being tremendously understated.

WHY??? It can only be because several of the terrorists melted away into the population.


Maan, you are scary.

The news item that he vehemently denied any local support is the next item to be watched in combination with the missing 3 to 4 terrorists. These might turn out to be ...

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Prem » 03 Dec 2008 06:48

Its not onlee why but who could arrange such attack.
Lets follow the Ws
Why ... Now
What ...Purpose
When... Timing
Where...ATS Home
Who ....??
Whom.. Working For

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby vera_k » 03 Dec 2008 09:42

Prem wrote:Its not onlee why but who could arrange such attack.
Lets follow the Ws
Why ... Now
What ...Purpose
When... Timing
Where...ATS Home
Who ....??
Whom.. Working For


Here's one possible scenario.

Why ... Now

Because there is a general election approaching and they are not sure that the Congress will retain power.

What ...Purpose
1. Discredit the BJP, if necessary invoke emergency

2. Label the BJP / RSS / VHP as terrorist organizations and use it to dry up funding for anti-conversion programs. Also guarantee that favorable political environment is maintained in the country.

When... Timing
The BJP win in Karnataka and subsequent events in Karnataka and Orissa may be the trigger

Where...ATS Home

In Maharashtra because political activities could be controlled. Plus exploit the fact that Congress is composed of indoctrinated and low IQ people who were guaranteed to fall for it.

Who ....??

EvanJihadi provide the political connections, Islamists the manpower

Whom.. Working For

Well, the case would be solved if we could answer this.
Last edited by vera_k on 03 Dec 2008 11:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby ramana » 03 Dec 2008 11:38

And some poor regular poster used to be tagged as CT!

Khya din aaye!

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby svinayak » 03 Dec 2008 11:55

ramana wrote:And some poor regular poster used to be tagged as CT!

Khya din aaye!

Please spell it out clearly CT= Conspiracy Theory(es)

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby shyam » 03 Dec 2008 12:38

Can we get Sanjay Choudhry back?

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Manu » 03 Dec 2008 13:55

Folks, now we have to confront the sorry spectacle that is playing out post the Mumbai "incident":
Link
Pak TV channel says 26/11 hatched by Hindu Zionists
2 Dec 2008, 2216 hrs IST, Nandita Sengupta, TNN

NEW DELHI: Mumbai's 26/11 was actually a plan hatched by "Hindu Zionists" and "Western Zionists", including the Mossad, said a self-styled Pakistan security expert on a Pakistan news television show, uploaded on http://www.hotklix.com.

" Inki shaklein Hinduonwali hain, jis zabaan mein guftagoo kar rahein hain, woh zabaan koi Pakistani istemaal nahin karta hai (They look like Hindus. No Pakistani speaks the language they chatted in)," said Zaid Hamid while referring to the terrorists on the show Mujhe Ikhtilaf Hai (I differ) on Pakistan's News One channel. The sensationalist channel was launched in November last year.

Hamid said that it was a "badly planned" operation that had gone horribly wrong. "9/11 jo Americans ne kiya tha usko bahut khoobsurat camouflage kiya tha. Unhone media mein perception management bahut acchha kiya . Indians ne wahi game repeat karne ki koshish ki, lekin akal to hai nahin . In ahmakon ne complete disaster kiya isko handle karne mein . (The Americans executed the 9/11 attack perfectly. They managed the media very well. The Indians tried to repeat the formula but goofed up. The idiots made a complete mess of it).

He said that the attackers wore saffron Hindu Zionist bands, which no Muslim would tie. Hamid also said that within the first 5 minutes of the attack, the three ATS policemen investigating the network of terror within India's security agencies and radical right were killed.

That ensured that those investigations reach a dead end. Anchor Qudsia Qadri added that with their killings, the investigations into the Samjhauta Express carnage would be halted. The killings also immediately shifted attention from India's domestic terrorists to Pakistan, said Hamid.

Marvi Memon, glamorous Pakistan Muslim League member, on the same programme, was appalled at the Pakistan government's expansion of the "India-appeasement package" by initially agreeing to send ISI chief to India. "I just don't get it," she exclaimed in exasperation.

She wondered how can you send the ISI chief to a " mulk jiske sath jang chal raha hai ...at a different level...," mentioning Kashmir and accusing India of blocking Pakistan's waters. Memon said, "They (Indians) are quite obsessed with anti-Pakistan speak and that unites them," she said. Memon also spoke about India's separatist movements and believed that India was only reaping the bitter harvest of the poisonous seeds it had sowed.

Blogger daily.pk writes in pakalert.wordpress.com, "India has been relapsing into religious extremism and numerous separatist movement have mushroomed due to official patronage ...I see the Mumbai bombings as the desperate move of separatists who want to blame everything on Muslims."

It's not only random voices railing against fingers pointing to Pakistan. Blogger and journalist Farrukh Khan Pitafi is miffed. "For years I have been advocating peace between India and Pakistan," he wrote. But he, too, says that India was out of its mind in naming Pakistan as the source of violence without identification of the perpetrators.

He wrote: "During such a long coverage of the mishap not a single outlet pointed out that Hemant Karkare... was the same man whose dismissal was Narendra Modi's biggest demand. Or that he was the man on the verge of uncovering the home-grown terror franchise of the Hindu extremists. No channel mentioned Colonel Purohit once during the live telecast, no not even CNN, BBC or CBS. It is sad."


But before we accuse a Paki of being a Paki, let us remind ourselves of what the INC led UPA's Sriprakash Jaiswal (State Minister for Home Affairs) had to say about the incident, even as it was taking place:
Link
Then entered the Minister of State for Home Affairs Sri Prakash Jaiswal. He provided the comedy in an otherwise grim tragedy that Mumbai was experiencing for nearly 48 hours. He told the media on November 28, ‘terror could be a conspiracy hatched by right-wing Hindu parties’. Hindu parties — read the BJP?


The Plot thickens:

(1) Now the Mumbai police commissionerenters the fray:

There were only 10 terrorists: Mumbai police commissioner

MUMBAI: Mumbai commissioner of police Hasan Gafoor sought to put to rest speculation that more than 10 terrorists were involved in the attack on Mumbai. He told the media on Tuesday that the nine killed and the one arrested were the only ones to arrive in the city.

However, he denied several other revelations that interrogators have been making during the questioning of Ajmal Amir Kasav, the arrested terrorist. Gafoor said the terrorists were on a suicide mission and never did any recce of spots in the city. He said the terrorists never intended to go back to Pakistan. As for the terrorists' GPS plotting the route back, Gafoor said the return route is automaticaly charted.

He denied that the terrorists had surveyed targets before starting their killing spree. "It is not true that they were familiar with the insides of the hotels,'' he said.

He ruled out any local support and the involvement of employees of the Taj and Oberoi in the terror attack. Asked whether the Dawood Ibrahim gang aided the terrorists in any way, he said, "We are keeping all options open.'' Gafoor repeated the same line when asked whether Nariman House, where Israeli Jews lived, was attacked because al-Qaida wanted to take revenge for Israeli attacks on Muslims in Lebanon and Gaza.

Though Gafoor confirmed that the terrorists set sail from Karachi on November 23, and that Kasav is a Pakistani national, he refused to make a definite statement on the involvement of Pakistan. The police commissioner revealed that the terrorists were trained by "an ex-Army officer for over a year''. But he denied that he was taking a soft stand by not linking Pakistan to the attack.

They came by a ship and, near Gujarat, they hijacked a trawler and came within a few nautical miles of the Mumbai coast. "All of them came ashore in one rubber dinghy,'' he said. Gafoor also denied that police control received any information from local fisherfolk after the terrorists came ashore at Fishermen's Colony, Badhwar Park, Cuffe Parade.

He confirmed that the terrorists placed three bombs around the two hotels__first reported in the TOI on December 1. Gafoor also said that the two explosions in taxis at Wadi Bunder and Santa Cruz were caused by bombs planted by the terrorists when they hired five cabs at Colaba.

The commissioner said the terrorists formed five different groups__two attacked Leopold Cafe and Taj, one went to Oberoi, another to CST and the last to Nariman House. Gafoor said the main motive was to target foreigners and create panic in the city. "They took five cabs and in two of them they planted bombs to create panic,'' he said.

"After the CST firing, the two terrorists walked out and entered the lane leading to the backyard of Cama Hospital as they were unfamiliar with the area. As part of the training, they had been shown detailed maps of the city. They had no plans of escape. They were initially asked to take positions atop the CST building, but could not find their way there,'' he said.

Gafoor further said that arms and ammuniton used by the terrorists had not been smuggled in earlier. "They carried it in their rucksacks,'' he said. He clarified that the identity cards found on them were fake and that the credit cards in their possession belonged to the victims.

On the Intelligence Bureau passing on information about possible attacks, he said, "One we received was after the Marriott was attacked in Pakistan and another on attacks in Gujarat and South India.''

GAFOOR'S STATEMENT

* There were only 10 terrorists

* They didn't plan on returning to Pak

* They had never done recces of the attacked sites

* Only one rubber dinghy was used to come ashore


What a Fantastic Pile of Stinking BS.

There are too many errors in the above "report" for me to comment on. But the plot, as I see it, is the following:

(1) The MSM led by the TOI(let) is trying to play to both sides of the gallery. On the one hand they were getting multiple orgasms and shouting from the rooftops about the discovery of the "Saffron Terror" plot. Now they seem to be writing against the Jihadis. And ultimately making sure that the public anger is channeled to ALL political parties, not just UPA.

(2) There were at least 10 major Blasts/incidents of Terrorist Violence before (and after) the Malegaon incident, yet 90% of the "ATS" was involved in "solving" the ATS probe.

(3) The ultimate AIM is to thoroughly discredit: The Armed Forces, the Police Forces, including the special cells & "encounter" specialists, The BJP, and lastly, Hindu society itself. The Islam Pasand Folks do not need to be discredited. Not even the best PR agency - TOI(let) can help them.

Now, no sane individual can claim that the All Political Parties are responsible for the fiasco that is our current National Security - the blame falls squarely on the feet of the COngress led UPA. But the same Media is now instigating the people against ALL politicians.

Who are the Net gainers? The answer is a scary one and tells me (and should tell all of you something). When a party of minorities gets elected, it works to preserve the interests only of those chosen minorities asnd in the process makes life difficult for everyone, including said minorities. I smell EJ. If not in the whole thing, at least up to the Mumbai incident. It may just be that the Religion of Peace and the Religion of the "One tru God" came in each others way, by accident. The set up was almost perfect till the Jihadis crashed the party.

Now the UPA and their Partners in crime, the MEDIA and the "Hidden Hand of EJS" are in a soup.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2008 14:08

is this gent Hasan Gafoor in his right mind ? he expects any sane people to believe that load of rubbish? UPA is slipping up if barkha b***h and gafoor are all they have.
A N Roy was pathetic but this is laughable.

I am predicting his "onree 10 terrorists" line will literally blow up in the
face soon enough.

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Re: Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

Postby Manu » 03 Dec 2008 14:43

Amber G. wrote:I think, whole column is worth posting in full;
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

After all, if 10 young Indians from a splinter wing of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party traveled by boat to Pakistan, shot up two hotels in Karachi and the central train station, killed at least 173 people, and then, for good measure, murdered the imam and his wife at a Saudi-financed mosque while they were cradling their 2-year-old son — purely because they were Sunni Muslims — where would we be today? The entire Muslim world would be aflame and in the streets.


What is disturbing is that Thomas Friedman may actually be upset that this tragedy took place in Mumbai where hundreds of innocents were slaughtered (and not just Jews) - but look at the insinuation and Equal = = Equal with BJP Splinter Wing = = LET.

This is what the Malegaon Fiasco has done.

Just imagine how far and wide the consequences have been.

It seems the Whole World has taken it upon themselves to do damage control for the UPA.


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