Mumbai Terrorist Attack-News stories and timeline

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 28 Nov 2009 09:23

Tanaji wrote:I am not denying that forces were sent. If they sent 200 people, where were they? Show me where they were.

Why would these officers be lying there for 45 minutes whereas it takes less than two minutes to reach that spot from where the forces were?

Basically these guys don't have the equipment (ballistic shields, body armour, MP5's) nor the training nor the mindset.

They are more accustomed to normal Indian policing tasks such as checking vehicles' registration papers and pollution certificates.

It's unfair to expect them to perform like a SWAT team.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Nov 2009 09:33

I wish one can get the logs ourselves

but now having spread 4 newspapers on the floor and trying to understand a bit

1300 calls received by Control center

Karkare's and Kamte's wireless operators were not there with them and were sending messages seperately.
plus used another vehicle to send messages. meanwhile Karkare seems to have been communicating trhough his mobile - but I have not seen a reference to them NOTING that they are sperated from their operators

this may be the reason Maria was not sure where the hell Karkare et all were

To me it seems a mistake on Karkare as well his operater - not indicating that they are not together.

Question:
Does the control room plot positions with time?? how accurate can it be if someone says Cama!!! which side , which direction

Also the general reference to location in a city where addresses are already too generalised.
Seems a lot of procedural changes need to be introduced in communications and control

How are other city control and comm procedures? Notably Delhi??

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Nov 2009 09:35

On the Ms. Vinita Kamte accusations

Mr. Maria has taken exception to these accusations in the book and met Additional Chief Secretary (Home) Chandra Iyengar to voice his feelings. Ms. Iyengar told journalists on Friday that Mr. Maria did indeed meet her and “he was very upset and legitimately so. I feel his point of view deserves attention and I will convey his views to the Chief Minister and the Home Minister,” she said. Mr. Maria refused to comment on this issue.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Nov 2009 09:37

ShauryaT wrote:A PBS video on 26/11. Please watch, even if it is focused on westerners. It is still a Victim's perspective.

What a bunch of M**fcukers the media walahs are. These chaps were relaying exact locations showing the hostages trapped on each floor, and saying "This is the 19th floor"

and all this info was going to the terrorists!!!

Even the massacre at the 'Chambers' at the Taj can be directly attributed to the minister who gave an interview to the TV channel, and the TV channel telecast it live, with the idiot reporter asking,"Sir, tell me your exact location" and netaji told him his exact location along with the fact that he was hiding with 200-300 people there.

The terrorists were immediately given this info by their handlers they promptly arrived and killed several people.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Nov 2009 14:14

Surya

since the Atocha bombings, City of Madrid police have deployed a C3I system. All vehicles and emergency services assets connect via wireless datalink to report their current location. They can also receive orders via the same system. Not sure what the level is in New York or DC, but in Europe AFAIK only London and Madrid have anything of this level of police sophistication (driven obviously by major incident experience). It will be a while before India can do this... or maybe not?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 28 Nov 2009 17:22

Jt Secy (Judicial) to depose on sanction to prosecute Kasab
Saturday, November 28, 2009

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Nov 2009 19:31

well even BMTC(volvos) and Meru cabs seem able to keep track of all their assets via GPS. the Meru cabs I have seen receive the details and address of the customer on a LCD screen no sure how.

so it seems simple asset tracking and relaying of textual messages is very much feasible and not too expensive. one doesnt need a MBT style battlegroup BMS.

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 28 Nov 2009 19:51

Pakistan cannot prosecute Hafiz Saeed: Qureshi

Pakistan cannot prosecute Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) founder Hafiz Saeed, the alleged mastermind of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, as there is insufficient evidence against him, the country's foreign minister said Saturday, even as he urged New Delhi to resume the sub-continental peace process.
"On Hafiz Saeed, honestly, the evidence provided is inadequate," Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi told Indian TV news channel CNN-IBN on the sidelines of the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting at the capital of Trinidad and Tobago, where he is leading the Pakistani delegation in the absence of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.
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He accused India of being "myopic" when reminded of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's statement in Jammu and Kashmir that if Pakistan abjures violence New Delhi was ready to meet more than half way on talks.
"I think we have to get out of the old mindset. We have to realise that there is a great opportunity coming our way. If you want to limit the dialogue that will not be acceptable to Pakistan. Let us sit and talk and talk as neighbours who have to co-exist.
"We have to help each other. The challenge is too large. I think you (India) are being myopic. You are being narrow-minded. You have to look at the broader picture and the broader picture demands cooperation and not confrontation," Qureshi maintained.

In New Delhi, Minister of State for External Affairs Shashi Tharoor reacted angrily to Qureshi's comments, saying India cannot negotiate with Pakistan while having a gun pointed at its head.
According to Tharoor, there had to be adequate progress by Pakistan for India to return to the table. India had frozen the sub-continental peace process after the Nov 26-29, 2008 Mumbai carnage that claimed the lives of 166 people, including 26 foreigners.
"We know that there is gun pointed at your head, but you still got to talk to us. Will you first get the gun removed from our head, then we will talk to you happily," Tharoor contended.

"If we can see some real action on the two things that we have been asking for in a year, we would be very happy to persuade the public and parliament that we need to engage in serious talks".
On Saeed, Tharoor said that any evidence that had to be unearthed against him had to be done in Pakistan itself.
"Surely the evidence is available in their country, where the man has been conducting his nefarious activities. So, it seems to me that in saying that the evidence is not enough, the Pakistani government is essentially saying that its own investigative capabilities are not what they should be," Tharoor contended.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Nov 2009 20:18

Singha, you are quite right. A lot of taxi operators now can provide a basic level of asset situational awareness that the Indian police could easily emulate with very little outlay. a necessary 2nd step would be to relay tactical information. perhaps a cell phone based system might be more appropriate. the third level of command and control would need to be more sophisticated, with built in redundancy and multi-nodal control, in case of control centres being hit, etc., or vehicles being hijacked. You can cascade it down to the pandu level on cell phones.

the spanish also have a narcotics smuggling monitioring system across the sea from the gibralter area that can radar and video track fast boats from the moroccan coast and then dispatch air and naval intercepts with real time live video feed to a command centre in madrid. this is not exactly new technology, but it is deployed and not just in labs. there is a big push now on for C3-C4IS technology into the police/border guard environment across europe

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Nov 2009 07:28

26/11 Accused Pakistanis to challenge indictment in Lahore High Court

The indictment of LeT leader Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and six other suspects by a Pakistani anti-terror court for planning and helping to execute the Mumbai attacks will be challenged in the Lahore High Court, Lakhvi’s lawyer said on Sunday.

They keep going back and forth between the ATC and the regular court to delay the whole process.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Nov 2009 13:29

Kasab's lawyer sacked by court

Judge ML Tahiliyani terminated Abbas Kazmi's appointment at defence counsel for Kasab on the grounds of "non-cooperation."

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 30 Nov 2009 13:45

Surya et.al,

Thiruvananthapuram City Police have installed GPS systems on their police vehicles. This system sends in periodic updates indicating the vehicle position. These are plotted on a city map at the Police Control room. The control room staff can easily find out the nearest vehicles in case of an emergency and alert them.

This system was introduced to stop the patrolling policemen from acting too smart. Very many times, they used to give wrong information on the wireless when asked where they were positioned.

BTW, I do not understand why there should be a specific 'wireless operator' with an officer or in any police vehicle. The wireless sets used by the city police are on the VHF/UHF band. These sets can be operated by any person with bare minimum training. Of course in case of HF sets, and Morse code etc. we required specially trained policemen.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Nov 2009 15:38

I dont think any of the Mumbai police vans have morse code sets. They were upgraded some years ago and use Motorola VHF/UHF sets.

How does the Mumbai Police control room currently track their assets? It must be a manual method, but since inputs can come from the cellular network, the UHF/VHF network and the PSTN network, how do they build a picture of what is happening? Especially in a crisis situation when the amount of calls coming in is exponential?

My guess is this is where things fell to pieces, and it is fool hardy to blame Maria for it.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 30 Nov 2009 16:01

Tanaji wrote:They were upgraded some years ago and use Motorola VHF/UHF sets.

Yes. HF sets are generally only used for communications between District HQs or from Police HQ to district HQ. They do use morse, and bit a of cryptography as well. At least this is how things work in the socialist republic of Kerala. Intra-district, and communication with vehicles is purely using simple VHF sets.

It must be a manual method, but since inputs can come from the cellular network, the UHF/VHF network

I guess they would have a kind of roll-call say once every 1/2 hour and manually note down the position reported by each vehicle/patrol unit.

My guess is this is where things fell to pieces, and it is fool hardy to blame Maria for it.

True. Rakesh Maria could have only used the existing system. He certianly will not have time to revamp the system during the course of the tragedy. I guess some people are trying to settle scores with Rakesh Maria. If I am not mistaken, this officer also have a huge net of informers.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Nov 2009 19:14

Sachin

Pretty sure no morse is used - encryption I doubt too

But plotting I am sure was non existent

they may have plotted generic locations

so for eg. Cama hospital

but there could be quite a difference between front back , 1000 yrads away

In the congested city - a position 100 yards away is pretty much non visible

I agree with Tanaji - it is stupid to blame Maria for it and his enemies are firing off vinitas shoulders

someone should be played the cacophony of messages in real time and see if they can figure out

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 30 Nov 2009 21:27

a) well the meru taxi service has better situational awareness of its assets than mumbai police ..seriously.. if u ring meru service they can locate taxi closest to your location in seconds.. maybe Mumbai police should hook on meru taxi service n/w

b) CNN IBN reporting contents of Ram pradhan committee which investigated lapses on 26/11 and some of its main findings are f...... contradictory..

"Rakesh maria did a wonderful job in the police control room"
" 3 police officers..Salaskar, kamte and karkare ... were at Cama hospital by chance"

now if mr maria was doing a wonderful job in the control room how did all three officers converge at cama hospital by chance?

I would like to ask the pradhan committee , if the mumbai police ever do a dummy drill involving movement of forces to multi threat situations, raido coordination, response times etc etc etc... " .. i think the entire senior police leadership are acting like a bunch of buffons... coupled with jokes like RR Patil etc..

c) Hasan gafoor has been criticised without his name being taken... !!!

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 30 Nov 2009 21:30

just because maria has a huge set of informers does not reduce his guilt as far as 26/11 is concerned.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Nov 2009 22:07

I did not see Maria being responsible for dispatching the 3 officers to Cama

that was Karkares decisions - so why fault Maria for it???

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 30 Nov 2009 22:15

more and more it seems like Kamte, Karkare and Salaskar were led into an ambush. Who asked these three to proceed to Cama, was it someone in the intelligence agencies ?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Nov 2009 22:26

manjgu wrote:just because maria has a huge set of informers does not reduce his guilt as far as 26/11 is concerned.

What "guilt"? How do you assign "guilt" when nothing has been proven yet?

Karkare was ATS, Kamte was ACP for Eastern region while Salaskar was a sub inspector. How did the 3 with disparate backgrounds end up in the same vehicle?

Raju wrote:more and more it seems like Kamte, Karkare and Salaskar were led into an ambush. Who asked these three to proceed to Cama, was it someone in the intelligence agencies ??

Are you seriously stating that RAW or IB colluded with Kasab and Ismail and killed 3 serving, senior members of the Mumbai Police? Is that really your accusation? Can you please also let us know why they did so?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 30 Nov 2009 22:37

the nodal officer in these agencies interacts with the state police officers. Also note the other discrepancy in that security cordon around Taj was withdrawn just the day before the attack. The state police doesn't take such decisions unilaterally.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Nov 2009 22:42

Raju wrote:the nodal officer in these agencies interacts with the state police officers. Also note the other discrepancy in that security cordon around Taj was withdrawn just the day before the attack. The state police doesn't take such decisions unilaterally.

Again, are you stating that a nameless officer in I&B and RAW murdered 3 service police officers?

The control room was manned by Maria. Hypothetically, To co-ordinate the ambush, and to get the 3 police officers to obey the order, the order MUST have come from someone in authority or someone like Maria. If someone said to the 3 "I am nodal officer Raju from RAW, go to Cama" do you really think they would have listened?

You are still not answering the main question :

What was the motive for RAW and IB (as per your theory) to murder 3 serving police officers?

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 30 Nov 2009 22:45

What was the motive for RAW and IB (as per your theory) to murder 3 serving police officers?

May be as suggested by that retired IG of Mahrashtra Poilce.

Just kidding.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Nov 2009 22:46

It must be noted that at the time these officers were killed, the extent of the attacks and their nature was not clear. Mumbai Police was working with the assumption that a gang war was in progress.... which kind of explains Salaskar's involvement. It was logical for Karkare to be there as well since he was ATS.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 30 Nov 2009 22:48

IB officers assigned to the particular state give intelligence inputs directly to ranks of SP and above. Junior level officers will have their own network or are given inputs from their seniors on basis of information from central sources.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 30 Nov 2009 22:51

Giving input =/= giving operational orders.

Secondly, IB officers give intelligence estimates on a general basis, NOT to-the-minute orders (which is what was required if the ambush theory is to be credible) on movement. Not even MI is that capable.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 30 Nov 2009 22:52

Input is always advisory unless accompanied by directive from Home ministry. The officers can act as per their discretion.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Dec 2009 06:59

manjgu wrote:b) CNN IBN reporting contents of Ram pradhan committee which investigated lapses on 26/11 and some of its main findings are f...... contradictory..

"Rakesh maria did a wonderful job in the police control room"
" 3 police officers..Salaskar, kamte and karkare ... were at Cama hospital by chance"

now if mr maria was doing a wonderful job in the control room how did all three officers converge at cama hospital by chance?

Seriously, how are you linking these two statements ? I do not see a link at all.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2009 08:05

Ssridhar... what is the role of the control room? to coordinate, marshall , organise, deploy the troops ( police here).... as per quite a few versions this did not happen .... while i am not totally clued about sequence of ops ( coming togther of 3 high profile officers ) by chance looks very suspicious to me. though i am not sure what led to this chance coming together... is it so hard to piece this story ??

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Dec 2009 08:33

manjgu, what I do not understand are these: Even granting that some mysterious hand directed the three top officers to go to Cama hospital, why are we assuming that this was done to trap them ? Are these three officers incapable of defending themselves ? Aren't police officers supposed to go to places where violence and terror are taking place ? Did that mysterious person also tell them they should travel together ? Amidst all the mayhem that was happening, could an elaborate plot have been drawn up for the ambush of these three officers ? Is it the suggestion that Kasab and his partner were asked to wait in ambush for these three top police officers ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Dec 2009 09:39

manjgu

do not assume based on your known definition of control room

once again there is no indication in logs that Maria asked the 3 to go to Cama - nor was it Gaffoor

Vinita seems to suggest that it was Karkares decision to collect the other 2 and it was logical because of the skills of Kamte and Salaskar. Note - she is not accusing Maria of sending them to that location- just that she believes that help was not sent to them quickly

So every evidence points to a decision by Karkare.

also come on - how stupid can you one get.

A couple of terrorists charged with mayhem would actually wait for a specific officer???? especially cops from diff areas with no specific positional task?? other than a cop vehicle they had no clue who it was and it was just another notch on their belt.

Raju

Seriously do you have anything useful to contribute to this forum. be it munaf or nukkad or this
You intentionally take a asinine position so that you can get others inflamed.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2009 10:53

No, i dont think it was to trap them... i am not for the conspiracy theory really.... what i meant what the "so called" control room utterly failed in directing / controlling the movement of the police force. i am curious to know which senior officers were at the other 2 locations ie Taj Mahal hotel, Trident... also there was no operating procedures/ designated roles for various officers. I mean though Salaskar was a inspector so he could be in thick of the action but Kamte, Karkare as very senior officers and should be more involved in directing and organising though they then could have been accused of shying away from action. I also believe that all three were targets of oppurtunity ... who were together in a vehicle which happended to cross the hiding terrorists??

should it be so hard to reconsturct the sequence of events given that all calls are recorded? my other gripe is just like the kargil committee report no heads rolled if there were so many mistakes... the only head RR patil which rolled is back again !!

surya...what is your definition of control room??.. ( my definition is that its the central node in the communications n/w.. from where directives etc are issued for deployment etc..)

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Dec 2009 11:18

manjgu wrote:just because maria has a huge set of informers does not reduce his guilt as far as 26/11 is concerned.

As others have pointed out, how can we conclude Rakesh Maria is "guilty". If I remember it correctly, Rakesh Maria had not explicitly asked these three officers to move to Cama Hospital in order to get them killed.

Yes, there could have been serious lapses in communication procedures, command and control and coordination. But Rakesh Maria is not the only person responsible for it.

I mean though Salaskar was a inspector so he could be in thick of the action but Kamte, Karkare as very senior officers

My gut feeling is that Kamte and Karkare went forward thinking this was an attack by the under-world. They may not have realised that this is a full-fledged terrorist attack.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Dec 2009 11:38

manjgu wrote:No, i dont think it was to trap them... i am not for the conspiracy theory really.... what i meant what the "so called" control room utterly failed in directing / controlling the movement of the police force. i am curious to know which senior officers were at the other 2 locations ie Taj Mahal hotel, Trident... also there was no operating procedures/ designated roles for various officers. I mean though Salaskar was a inspector so he could be in thick of the action but Kamte, Karkare as very senior officers and should be more involved in directing and organising though they then could have been accused of shying away from action. I also believe that all three were targets of oppurtunity ... who were together in a vehicle which happended to cross the hiding terrorists??

See my earlier post. You are right about confusion but it is understandable when urban warfare of this magnitude happens for the very first time in the whole world. We are a country unprepared for the smallest disaster and we do not learn from past mistakes. Even if we learn, procedures are not implemeted, grilled into people through repetitive training etc. But, these are all another matter when people mix them with fantastic conspiracy theories to muddy the waters.

As for any other officer, DCP (or ACP) Patil was inside the Taj for 5 hours and his repeated requests for back up (only another constable was inside with him) were ignored. I posted this in the previous page. Again, whoever was sent later, took up positions outside the Hotel and were unwilling to enter. They were even asked by Ghafoor (IIRC) not to work under a joint command with others. Officer Patil had to be rescued by the Fire Brigade after the Taj was set fire to. I don't know if any other top-ranking police officer was involved in the Trident similarly.

As for Kamte & Karkare not required to be present at the place of terror, I disagree with that view. They may not be expected to lead from the front unlike Salaskar, but their presence close to the spot is not unexpected and probably even desirable. Remember that they went from CST, which was the scene of massive terror.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 01 Dec 2009 11:41

possibility is that this could be wheels within wheels. Kamte, Karkare could have been targeted by underworld and the pakistanis come to know about this and stage their own terror attack simultaneously. SO that in case of any investigation responsibility would fall initially upon local underworld or atleast keep the silly kuffar confused for some time.

In any case is there any evidence that those outside Nariman House and the 3 hotels were also using VoIP to communicate with their handlers in pakistan. This is significant.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2009 11:55

Sridhar.. i agree with you broadly that for reasons known to us there was complete failure ( though this conspiracy theory is really hard to digest) but then how can the committee conclude that Mr Maria did a wonderful job . What i am saying is that a committee of experts should be formed which should reconstruct the events in much detail and pin responsibility. if a particular force did not reach its intended place then it should be investigated ( where did it get lost and did the control room verify if it has reached intended destination or not?? etc..) .. if some officer did not do what was expected of him, it should be investigated else how does one learn for the next time.

My comment about mr maria ;s guilt was in response to some posters comments that Mr maria has a large base of informers . the point is mr marias informers have no bearing on his conduct or misconduct on 26/11 and should not be factor while pinning responsibility. these informers are paid by gov of india and not mr maria...

While it is true that this was urban terrorism on a large / unimaginable scale, yet as B Raman was saying on a TV show yesterday that there were repeated intelligence on an attack espciailly by sea borne terrorists on bldgs facing the seafront... and there was precious little ( though this is really irrelevant now)...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Dec 2009 12:05

Look all the P-Sec media is trying to is somehow connect BJP, VHP to Karkare death. They will say even the SUn rose inthe west. Arent the Javed Sheihk encounter and Banerjee committee, Samjauta express claims enough evidence of this. WHy do we need to debate this.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Dec 2009 12:35

thats quite true Aditya_V .... there was definetly an attempt to connect BJP, VHP to karkare as he was heading ATS... but i think that has died down of late.

there were lot of lapses both on account of incompetence of officers and magnitude of incident ..

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Dec 2009 18:44

manjgu

what I mean is for eg. in my fancy view of a control center - all positions of vehildes and men are mapped with coordinates

But I cannot assume that the Mumbai police control center plots it the same way. I just do not know.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 01 Dec 2009 19:38

http://www.mumbaipolice.org/helpline/main.htm

In addition to the main control room:

Each Region, controlled by an officer of the rank of Addl. Commissioner of Police, has its own Control Room.

Obviously Maria was in the main control room. But who knows which control room the vans were in touch with? I would think it would be the regional one, unless told to do so otherwise.