US and PRC relationship & India

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Nov 2011 20:43

Prabu, Again its not a zero sum game with PRC. Lets not get bogged down in Western games.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 25 Nov 2011 01:47

From the Heritage foundation event which featured Bharat Karnad, Apparently a US official in 2009 went to Asia saying that just as UK handed over the leadership to US, US was starting the process of handing over leadership to China. Goes to show why India should be wary of US motives in Asia.

Another thing a US expert said was that China started taking India seriously only after US inked nuke deal and defence cooperation agreement with India in 2005. That is the reason India should forge a partnership with US. What kind of logic is that?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2011 05:23

That is know as the 'sucker' logic.
Only suckers will go for this such as 'G2' and fall into the trap.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 25 Nov 2011 07:03

The other thing I got from the Heritage foundation discussion is that US wants to sell weapons and derive economic benefits from India. But Ashley Tellis had said in an interview that US does not need India to take care of China. They had taken care of USSR earlier. From their point of view, they would like India to be a Japan. It will help to perpetuate their supremacy economically by offering its market and buying arms. At the same time, if India's autonomy is eroded, then they will use India strategically as well. The military agreements like CISMOA etc will help in eroding autonomy.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Nov 2011 07:11

They really dont need India.
They need to contain India ( 1972-2005) or to coopt India to make it a vassel state like Japan.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 25 Nov 2011 07:50

Exactly. That what's I meant in my earlier post. Recently Panetta talked about threats from China and India. Keeping them divided helps them. China also helps them in that by its boorish behaviour.

The only reason I can think why US still panders Pakistan inspite of its perfidies is because of its importance in containing India. What other reason can be there?

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 25 Nov 2011 16:53

^^^^
Totally agree. Pakistan's most important utility to countries like China and US is containment of India. That is why even after being stabbed in the back by the Pakis US will not abandon it. After all Afghanistan, according to many Yanks, is a small prize. The bigger prize is China and India.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Nov 2011 17:25

Inferiority complex haunts India: China

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Nov 2011 18:16

Seriously, how can anyone having any amount of IQ regard normal business dealings and competition as a sign of 'inferiority complex'?

I am having a hard time figuring this one out. Is it that the PRC government ability to express themselves in English sucks bigtime or is there a more basic problem with their logical faculties ?

hulaku · Post by **hulaku** » 25 Nov 2011 18:33

The original Xinhua article

India's undue worry about China results from inferiority complex

Why India appears so impatient to take more agreeable strategies in its periphery is still beyond understanding. But one thing is certain: Today's India, no matter how anxious it intends to lead the region and even the world, is far from potent and prosperous to act of its own accord----By currying favor with China's neighbor, in particular, those who have brewed disputes with China, India would assume, it could instigate these smaller nations to engage in a gang fight against China and contain China's growing clout in the region.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/i ... 266603.htm

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 25 Nov 2011 19:12

^^^
If the Chinese truly believe this BS about inferiority complex/jealousy, they are totally clueless. If they say this so as to feel superior or just to taunt India, it only betrays their insecurity and nervousness that India might catch up with them or perhaps even surpass them.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Nov 2011 00:47

hulaku wrote:The original Xinhua article

China's undue worry about India results from inferiority complex

Why China appears so impatient to take more agreeable strategies in its periphery is still beyond understanding. But one thing is certain: Today's China, no matter how anxious it intends to lead the region and even the world, is far from potent and prosperous to act of its own accord----By currying favor with India's neighbor , in particular Pakistan, those who have brewed disputes with India, China would assume, it could instigate these smaller nations to engage in a gang fight against India and contain India's growing clout in the region.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 26 Nov 2011 01:14

What stupid logic from the Chicom folks. What explains China's deals with Pakistan Bangladesh etc. Super inferiority complex. Inferiority complex making them aggressive, seeking revenge for their past humiliations.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 28 Nov 2011 07:25

John Garver's paper on Chinese anti encirclement efforts. Focuses on US India and Japan.

http://www.chinacenter.net/about/associ ... ruggle.pdf

I think he makes one error in assuming that Vietnam has agreed to Chinese supremacy. The paper is Chinese centric as if it is the responsibility of other nations to keep China happy so that there is no confrontation.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 28 Nov 2011 09:48

He makes a much larger error in identifying India as the weak link in the alliance. That Japanese official made it clear when he said words to the effect that Japan was saved when India decided to enter the compact.

India has access to a 1000 km front in Tibet, as well as almost 2 million military and paramilitary. Unlike Japan it can control certain events in Tibet that are a little more central to China's view of its self and its role in Asia and the world beyond. Japan has no long range air power comparable to the IAF. India is building an aggressive and formidable missile inventory from Brahms block III to Shaourya boost/glide (waverider?) payload, to long range CM, to a ballistic missile defense. Indians are culturally driven to be conciliatory and even placatory but they are not guileless. That would be a gross misinterpreting by the Chinese.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 29 Nov 2011 15:37

US angry at ISI continued support to Haqqani network: McCain

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 29 Nov 2011 21:58

Prabu wrote:US angry at ISI continued support to Haqqani network: McCain

McCain what exactly can you or your country do in this regard? Nothing.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Nov 2011 22:12

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Prabu wrote:US angry at ISI continued support to Haqqani network: McCain

McCain what exactly can you or your country do in this regard? Nothing.

He and through him his country took the only action they can by giving that statement.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2011 23:02

csharma wrote:Exactly. That what's I meant in my earlier post. Recently Panetta talked about threats from China and India. Keeping them divided helps them. China also helps them in that by its boorish behaviour.

The only reason I can think why US still panders Pakistan inspite of its perfidies is because of its importance in containing India. What other reason can be there?

PRC/TSP for US is like the goonda/dacoit that the zamindar maintains to make sure the villagers run to the zamindar for help.

Only thing is the goonda and the dacoit are colluding now and the zamindar wants the villagers to help reduce the power of the duo.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2011 23:17

ramana wrote:
PRC/TSP for US is like the goonda/dacoit that the zamindar maintains to make sure the villagers run to the zamindar for help.

Only thing is the goonda and the dacoit are colluding now and the zamindar wants the villagers to help reduce the power of the duo.

goonda and the dacoit want to take over and rule the world now.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 29 Nov 2011 23:25

After the withdrawl will the Americans be forced to start the dirty game inside Pa_istan? Dirty as in manipulating the Pak army ranks, colour revolutions, bribing the individuals instead of the institution of Pak army, supporting the underdog, getting the good ghazi and bad ghazi to do fight it out, assasinations. I mean they already do most of that but what I am asking for is the mean streak.

A country born out of manipulation sustained through manipulation, can only go out through manipulation.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 29 Nov 2011 23:26

ramana wrote:PRC/TSP for US is like the goonda/dacoit that the zamindar maintains to make sure the villagers run to the zamindar for help.

Only thing is the goonda and the dacoit are colluding now and the zamindar wants the villagers to help reduce the power of the duo.

For me its goonda/rhandi combo. The rhandi has 3.5+ patrons, including the goonda and zamindar, and always tries to score brownies points over sati.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 23:29

^ And they think the scenario Kishore Mehbubani explained is already here. I hope they lose a leg and a hand along with Zamindar's wisdom teeth.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 30 Nov 2011 00:10

PRC is not goonda, he is a wannabe zamindar. He is cultivating his own set of rowdies like NoKo and Iraq. He has influence over the local drunkard/rowdy pak. Intrestingly the pak plays both the present zamindar(US) and the wannabe(PRC) and milks them both.

India is the big bro of the paki. Paki seperated from him and bears lot of malice towards the big bro, India. Now, the paki is addicted to alcohol(islamism) and does not do a single day's hardwork. But, he still wants to be on par with his big bro who is hard working and honest. This paki has been adopted by zamindar and wannabe zamindar by giving him trinkets.

The paki does not care for his wife or children(masses). So, the zamindar has to bear that burden. Wannabe also chips in.

India, the honest guy, has the potential to carve out his own future without having to depend on zamindar or wannabe. He can even prove to be a potential competitor to both.

Lousy Paki's jealousy against his elder bro is used to make him a thorn in India's path to pre-empt his rise.

One of the thorns is a property dispute called kashmir. Some of it is under big bro's custody and some of it is occupied by the paki.

However, paki's addiction is growing out of bounds. Zamindar tried to get him to give up the alcohol(islamism). He failed. Wannabe realised that paki will die soon, so he must quickly use him before its too late. Wannabe is trying to make himself party to the property dispute. As a first step, he is now 'renting' the paki occupied part of kashmir.

Meanwhile, India is steadly growing rich. Supporting the paki is giving diminishing returns for the zamindar. Also, the zamindar is growing through a financial crisis. But the paki is frustrated that zamindar is not meeting his increasing needs and threatens to jump into wannabe's camp. Also, zamindar's attempts to make paki reduce his addiction have only enraged him(paki) further.

Paki seems to be headed for a certain death due to his addiction. Zamindar is also realising that paki is a hopeless case. The ruthless wannabe is only intrested in making the most out of paki before he expires. The wannabe does not even try to make him give up the addiction.

Intrestingly, India is trying to keep the paki alive. Because, it fears that if paki dies, he will have to take care of paki's wife and kids(masses). India hopes that someday paki will give up his addiction.

Will the paki live? Can he give up his addiction?
Will the zamindar continue in his position? Or will he be replaced by wannabe?
What will be the fate of India?
Dekheye break ke baad...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2011 00:19

Based on your summary best if elder bro makes the wife and children knock/beat some sense in the rowdy.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 30 Nov 2011 00:22

It is okay if the wife and children kick rowdy out of the house.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 30 Nov 2011 00:31

ramana wrote:Based on your summary best if elder bro makes the wife and children knock/beat some sense in the rowdy.

Wife* is also quite trecherous and plays her role in helping her drunkurd hubby.

They dont realise that if he does not give up alcohol(islamism), he will die. Zamindar tried to knock this sense into them, but he failed. Infact, he has earned their ire and distrust for his efforts.

Do notice that complete reformation of paki is not in zamindar's intrests. He only wants paki to reform to the extent that he can be kept alive and does not create nuisance near zamindar's homeland.

*such wives do exist.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 30 Nov 2011 02:14

what is the goal zamindar/wannabe w.r.t to the big bro in this story?

what is the goal of big-bro in all this?

can we find a model for such a story from our history?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2011 02:19

Problem is the elder bro is in the clutches of his DIE gumastha (INC) who keeps advising feeding the rowdy, while stealing the elder bro's khazana. Situation is such that the gumastha thinks he is elder bro.

He needs to fire the gumastha.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 30 Nov 2011 11:12

US steps into India's retail FDI maelstrom, enrages Oppn

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fdi-i ... us/882318/

Welcoming the decision of the Indian government to allow foreign direct investment (FDI) in the multi-brand retail sector, the United States said that it will "deepen" the India-US economic co-operation.

The statements made did not go down well with the Opposition parties in India with the Left and BJP coming out strongly against America's habit of interfering in India's domestic policies, alleging it violated sovereignty.

CPI's D Raja slammed the American ambassador for overstepping his brief, saying that India's policies should be 'independent'.

"We welcome India's decision. We think economic reforms such as these will further strengthen business-to-business ties between our two countries," State Department spokesman, Mark Toner, told reporters.

"It's going to create new economic opportunities and it's also going to lead to more choices for Indian consumers," he added.

FDI in the retail sector was one of the wish list of the US companies and the US had been pushing for it for quite some time now.

Terming the opposition to the FDI in retail by various political parties as "a reflection of a vibrant democracy that India has", he said "this is part of a vibrant democracy where, you know, opposition parties can speak their mind and voice their concerns. But, you know, we view this, as I said, as a way to deepen our economic ties with India."

Last week, Corporate America had hailed the Union Cabinet's decision in this regard saying these bold economic reforms would benefit Indian consumers by bringing efficiencies and productivity to the farm-to-fork supply chain, while tamping down rising food prices and inflation.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 30 Nov 2011 12:57

No pro-China tilt in Bangladesh, says Bangladesh Army Chief

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 01 Dec 2011 20:12

Just in case anyone misses the sound of MKB's flatulence:
Hu Jintao’s secret plan for India

While Indians went about pursuing their hard life, they failed to take note that as the curtain comes down on 2011, India has begun overtaking China. It is a decisive leap over China, too. Of course, the info needed to be provided to us by the Americans who seem to know us better than we ourselves do, what we are capable of, despite the pervasive gloom and pessimism about the way things are going in our country.

The Foreign Policy Magazine complied a list of 10 world events which escaped humanity’s attention in the hurlyburly of life through 2001. Topping the list is - hold your breath - SHINING INDIA. Yes, India’s remarkable progress in the past one year in overtaking China in militarization. Not only China, but we have overtaken the rest of the world too in securing the covetable rank as the “world’s largest weapon importer”, accounting for 9 percent of the entire world’s transactions! Bravo!

The performance over the Indian Navy stands out as stupendous. The FP says: “India is focusing on sea power, a crucial new area of competition [with China]. The country is planning to spend almost $45 billion over the next 20 years on 103 new warships, including destroyers and nuclear submarines. By comparison, China’s investment over the same period is projected to be around $25 billion for 135 vessels.” But then, this is not surprising. After all, China is a mere Far Eastern sub-regional power bogged down in debilitating squabbles in the South China Sea, whereas, we have the immense responsibility to secure the entire waters of the Indian Ocean and western Pacific all the way from the Gulf of Oman to Vladivostock.

A passing thought crosses my mind. If we have such fantastic native middle class resources to give China a run for their yuan, why don’t we take on that communist country across the board and just overtake them everywhere? Say, for instance, in poverty alleviation so that we all become ‘middle class’. China just announced that it is upping by over 80 percent its ‘BPL‘ (that’s how we simplified it in Kerala’s local idiom - ‘Below Poverty Line’) index.

China, it seems, will now onward consider all those below 2300 yuan ($362) annually as poor people. Why don’t we also up the BPL index by 81 percent (one percent over China’s) in India? Why don’t we also declare all those Indians as ‘unlucky BPL guys’ who presently don’t have an income of $363 annually?

China’s president Hu Jintao has announced 2020 as the cut-off year when all Chinese peoples will be living in a “comprehensively well-off society”. No more BPL for China by 2020. In that case, shouldn’t we work for abolishing BPL in India at least by 2019 - just 12 months ahead of China?

The spirit of ‘competition-cum-cooperation’ with China shouldn’t be selective - or left only to our ‘China hands’ to determine. PM Manmohan Singh once wanted to make Mumbai look like Shanghai. But this is where the real competition lies - poverty alleviation, so that 500 million Indians do not go to sleep on an empty stomach. Maybe, PM should put our able ‘China hands’ on the job to analyze what is on Hu’s mind, what is Hu’s secret success story. The FP story is here.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 02 Dec 2011 08:23

The pivot of change in Asia: Shri Shyam Saran

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 06 Dec 2011 18:58

With China on mind, India, US, Japan to hold trilateral meet

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 06 Dec 2011 20:36

johnee g, that was brilliant! I have already copied and pasted your article to my relatives and friends, hope you don't mind

. It really lays out the situation wrt to Pakistan, India, the US and China.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 07 Dec 2011 00:51

"Totally agree. Pakistan's most important utility to countries like China and US is containment of India."

How does the US rationalise to itself and most of all, its people, the containment of India idea? Let's say there is a large panel discussion in which the general public is present. How would this discussion progress?

What exactly is the US containing when it contains/tries to contain India? We can dismiss right away military dictatorship, theocracy and communism. That has never been an official or even unofficial motive. It would be seen as ludicrous by any sensible or half-sensible person. India is not advocating, promoting or pushing any of these ideas or systems on anyone. So reducing Indian influence in Central or West Asia is not going to prevent dictatorships from emerging in those regions. A cunning or demagogic commentator( of the likes of Eric Margolis or Barbara Crossette) might raise the issue of caste and gender inequality within India, as well as corruption. But could they convince anyone that India is promoting these things in foreign countries, in such a way that significantly impacts those countries' internal policies. That would be reaching, to say the very least. What about the involvement of countries the US deems inimical to itself ideologically, such as Russia traditionally, and India's ties with those selfsame countries. There's nothing to suggest that India directly encourages those countries to become involved, is responsible for those countries' presence, or that any such putative collaboration endangers the US in some way.

By process of elimination, what is really left is the US dislike of Indian economic influence and competition in those regions, India acting independently, obtaining some influence over the resources of those countries, and the example of India encouraging and inspiring other developing countries to act independently particularly with respect to their own resources. And to perhaps become more democratic and pluralistic again inspired by India's example. This is what the US appears to be 'containing'.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2011 00:55

Varoon, Have you read the Sci-Fi Foundation series by Issac Asimov. Atleast read the wiki version and comeback.

US sees India as its long range comeptitor in ideas, culture space.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Dec 2011 01:39

ramana garu,

a great enlightened civilization would try to have an able counterpart civilization with which it can carry out a dialogue, a civilization which can act as a mirror to it, and help it grow. In isolation everything withers.

They should understand this. It is important for them.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Dec 2011 01:53

A great point Rajesh... That has to be the way forward.

And it would be foolhardy of us not to recognise that the US is capable of understanding this.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Dec 2011 02:40

before statements about being "foolhardy" are made, we should perhaps see for evidence that this is happening.....otherwise, we'll be chasing after delusional fantasies. I'll believe in the "enlightenment" of the US when I see it. till then, words like "foolhardy" will be used to make us sing "kum ba yah" with someone who doesn't want it, nor cares for it.....