Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

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Johann
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Johann »

surinder wrote:Johann,

No need to clarify, I knew you were not equating their worth, just their anti-colonialism. Iqbal might have caused anti-colonialism down the stream, but was hardly that himself. He was, as far as I can tell, docile and a loyalist. He never took any revolutionary work nor fought for independence (either peacefully or with violence). Call him the "as anti-colonial as it gets" equates his non-existent or negiligible anti-colonialsim with those who put their life down.
Surinder,

I have never heard anyone describe Iqbal as a loyalist - his poetry was consistantly anti-colonial throughout, which is why Saare Jahan se Achha became one of the nationalist anthems. Iqbal's journey was from an Indian nationalist to a Muslim nationalist.

It was an anti-colonialism of the pen and intellect like Tagore (whom Dinkar listed as one of his inspirations along with Iqbal), rather than the anti-colonialism of leading marches or picking up weapons.

Amongst the middle class in particular, it is the shared experience of powerful ideas and words that make mobilisation possible. Otherwise its very much a case of standing alone and dying alone.

Understanding Iqbal is I think the key to understanding the idea of Pakistan- he supported the Khilafat movement (unlike Jinnah), proposed Pakistan before Jinnah did, and turned anti-Ahmadi in the 1930s.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Keshav »

Johann wrote:Understanding Iqbal is I think the key to understanding the idea of Pakistan- he supported the Khilafat movement (unlike Jinnah), proposed Pakistan before Jinnah did, and turned anti-Ahmadi in the 1930s.
This is not speculation. While Jinnah is Quaid-e-Azam, Iqbal is considered the ideological founder of Pakistan. He was the first to put forward the idea of the two-nation theory.

Although these quotes are from Wikipedia, it is cited properly and from a respectable source. You can view it yourself in the article:
Sir Muhammad Iqbal was elected president of the Muslim League in 1930 at its session in Allahabad, in the United Provinces as well as for the session in Lahore in 1932. In his presidential address on December 29, 1930, Iqbal outlined a vision of an independent state for Muslim-majority provinces in northwestern India:

"I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single state. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated Northwest Indian Muslim state appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of Northwest India."
As described by Nobel prize winning V.S. Naipul:
In his speech, Iqbal emphasised that unlike Christianity, Islam came with "legal concepts" with "civic significance," with its "religious ideals" considered as inseparable from social order: "therefore, the construction of a policy on national lines, if it means a displacement of the Islamic principle of solidarity, is simply unthinkable to a Muslim."

Iqbal thus stressed not only the need for the political unity of Muslim communities, but the undesirability of blending the Muslim population into a wider society not based on Islamic principles. He thus became the first politician to articulate what would become known as the Two-Nation Theory — that Muslims are a distinct nation and thus deserve political independence from other regions and communities of Indian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Airavat »

Some of Jinnah's rationalization for the creation of Pakistan. Record of Interview between Cabinet Delegation, Field Marshal Viscount Wavell and Mr. Jinnah on Thursday, 4 April 1946 at 10 am:

"The Delegation invited Mr. Jinnah in the first place to give them his reasons why he thought it better for the future of India that India should have a Pakistan.

Mr. Jinnah said that throughout her history from the days of Chandra Gupta there had never been any Government of India in the sense of a single Government. The Muslim Moghul Empire had had the largest control but even in those days the Mahrattas and the Rajputs were not under Muslim rule. When the British came they gradually established their rule in a large part of India but, even then, India was only one-third united. The big States and sovereign States were constitutionally and legally already Pakistans.

The only limitation of this is the Paramount Power of the Crown. The effect of Paramountcy is that the Paramount Power in the last resort maintains internal order in the States but as a counterpart of this has a duty to prevent gross maladministration. Nowadays we talk of British India and say India is one. Mr. Jinnah considered that that could not stand examination for a moment. India is really many and is held by the British as one."

And on Jinnah's desire to include Hindu-majority Calcutta in Pakistan:

"The Secretary of State pointed out that the inclusion of any considerable area in which there was majority of non-Muslims might very well not strengthen but weaken the viability of Pakistan. Mr. Jinnah said that he was not opposing the view but said that suppose it were suggested that Calcutta should be added to Bihar he would say that that was an impossibility.

He contemplated that there would be territorial adjustments, but he could not agree that Calcutta could be taken away merely because it was a Hindu-majority city. Much of the Hindu population of Calcutta was not indigenous but brought there from outside. Sir S. Cripps said that the Hindus might say it was impossible for them to live without Calcutta but Mr. Jinnah replied that they had Bombay and Madras and could have a new port in Orissa. Pakistan without Calcutta would be like asking a man to live without his heart."
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Vishal_Bhatia »

Airavat wrote:Pakistan without Calcutta would be like asking a man to live without his heart."
This is quite true Sir; Jinnah was desperate to get Calcutta. He needed the port and also the industry and commerce of the city.

He also wanted Amritsar to be included in Pakistan, the reason being that the Sikhs would stay inside Pakistan if their holiest cities (Lahore and Amritsar) remain in Pakistan.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f13DINzvXSE

Ghazwa-e-Hind
Greater Pakistan

This was the ultimate vision of Muslim League leadership
SSridhar
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SSridhar »

Johann wrote:Understanding Iqbal is I think the key to understanding the idea of Pakistan- he supported the Khilafat movement (unlike Jinnah), proposed Pakistan before Jinnah did, and turned anti-Ahmadi in the 1930s.
Keshav wrote:This is not speculation. While Jinnah is Quaid-e-Azam, Iqbal is considered the ideological founder of Pakistan. He was the first to put forward the idea of the two-nation theory.
During the last two decades of the nineteenth century, there were two influential thoughts among the Muslims of India. One could be attributed to Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan of Aligarh and like-minded people and the other to Jamal-ud-din-Afghani.

Sir Sayyid's idea was to remain friendly with the Christians who after all were Ahl-e-Kitab and trustworthy. He even attributed the Crusades to political war-mongering and not religious. He therefore preferred to be ruled by the Christians rather than the Hindus.

On the other hand, Afghani, an original thinker of great repute, was an anti-imperialist to the core. He came to India after the 1857 uprising and found the despondent mood among the Muslims very disturbing. He inspired the Muslims to militantly fight the imperialists as he did at other places like Egypt, from where he was expelled to Hyderabad, India once again.

Iqbal probably bridged these two streams. He was in awe of Hitler. He hated democracy. His argument that Islamic nationalism cannot be restrained by mere geographical borders since Prophet Muhammad himself migrated from Makkah to Madinah to setup/consolidate his Caliphate, probably is at the foundation of his two-nation theory.

But, as I said before, such ideas caught on easily among Muslim elites and later the masses because the foundation had been laid in 1906 by Viceroy Minto.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Paul »

An interesting insight on how the subcontinental muslim elites played both sides of the fence after partition.

Princess Sarvath, wife of prince hassan of Jordan who almost became king after hussein died was niece to former Indian VP Hidayatullah.

these relationships are kept well alive in the cobweb of the INC heirarchy.
Mohammed Ikramullah
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Mohammad Ikramullah was a prominent figure in the administration of Pakistan at the time of independence. As a member of the provisional government of Pakistan, before the independence, he was Secretary and Advisor at the Ministries of Commerce, Information and Broadcasting, Commonwealth Relations and Foreign Affairs. After the independence, he was appointed the first Foreign Secretary of Pakistan in 1947. He also remained the Ambassador of Pakistan to Canada, France, Portugal and the United Kingdom. He was married to a leading figure of Pakistan independence movement Shaista Suhrawardy Ikramullah, and father of Princess Sarvath of Jordan.

Contents [hide]
1 Biography
1.1 Personal life
2 Notes
3 External links


[edit] Biography
During his Indian Civil Services (ICS) career, Ikramullah served as Advisor to the preparatory commissions of the United Nations in London and San Francisco, and at its first general assembly, between 1945 and 1946. In July 1947, when States Departments were established, Ikramullah was appointed from ICS as Secretary, States Department, Provisional government of Pakistan.[1] Subsequently in October the same year, he became the first Secretary of Foreign Affairs of the Government of Pakistan. Ikramullah played key roles in establishing the Commonwealth Economic Committee and had been nominated as Secretary-General of the Commonwealth at the time of his death.


[edit] Personal life
His brother, Mohammad Hidayatullah, was Chief Justice of India from 1968-70, Vice President of India from 1979-84, and served as acting President of India twice. He married Shaista Suhrawardy in 1933 and had four children:

Inam Ikramullah
Naz Ikramullah (born 1938)
Salma Sobhan (August 11, 1937 - December 30, 2003) - former barrister and professor
Sarvath (born July 24, 1947) - now Princess Sarvath of Jordan
Until these umbilical relationships are broken decisively, we cannot expect indian leadership to identify and act on indian interests clearly.

note for all INc supporters on this forum.
Airavat
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Airavat »

The above claims that the Jarral clan, based in the western Jammu region, were converted in the "11th century". However there are still Hindu Jarrals to be found. Similarly the Minhas/Manhas are a branch of the Jamwal Rajputs of Jammu. Hindu Manhas still live in Jammu and eastern Punjab; (Mithun Manhas of the Delhi Daredevils cricket team is from Jammu).
Kaimkhanis: "They had embraced Islam a few hundred years ago, and are still considered close to Rajputs."
The Rajputs regard them as Muslims and nothing else. Once you convert to alien ideologies, and give up the traditions of your ancestors, you are no longer a Rajput.
"Hasan Khan Mewati organised Rajputs under Rana Sanga against Babur."

:rotfl:
Mewati was a Delhi noble who organised Mahmud Khan Lodi's followers and joined the Rajputs under Maharana Sanga! The different aims of the Muslims and Rajputs, and the use of artillery by Babur, led to the the break-up of the former alliance.
There are a lot of Hindus and Sikhs who are members of the Sudhan tribe, most of these live in Kashmir.
They live not in "Kashmir" but in Jammu.

Another clan of western Jammu not mentioned above are the Chib; many of them converted but others stayed Hindu. Funny thing is that the Hindu clans of western Jammu are classed as Dogras but the Muslims were considered akin to Punjabis by the British!

At the time of partition, and the division of the British Indian Army, Muslims from western Jammu were transferred to the newly-created Pakistan army, and this helped greatly in the Pakistani invasion of J&K state.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Dhaval_D »

** Deleted as irrelevant post **
Last edited by SSridhar on 26 Jun 2009 18:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Dhaval_D, please be careful about what you post and whether it has any relevance to the thread topic. Besides, we are not here to discuss juicy, titillating tidbits except when its involves Pakistanis.
JE Menon
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by JE Menon »

Now you know why the BJP lost :rotfl:

Incompetence.

Just received this email eh? This pointless idiocy has been floating around for years on the web. What, "Maneka... wearing just a towel"... Sonia "just an au pair"... Gandhi did not disclose his name-changing game with Feroze "why :(( "???

"He was the son of another Muslim gentleman, Mohammad Yunus."... who no doubt went on to found Grameen Bank in Bangladesh. Well, why not, since we've started now.

Now let's wait for Feb. 14 next year to tear up some Valentine's Day cards... yeay!!! :twisted:

Shameful incompetence.

The antecedents and intentions behind such transparent propagandistic bullsh1t are so obvious it's embarrassing even to people who may generally dislike the dynastic nonsense being perpetrated by the Gandhi family... And we have curled our toes hard enough and cringed quite enough over the past two months. So please, spare us such emails Dhaval_D...
ramana
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Link to blog on Q Hyder's forecast on TSP and a summary of her famous book Aag Ki Darya(AKD : River of Fire)

http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2007/1 ... ain-hyder/

x-post..
SSridhar wrote:In this TFT article, extracted below, the author describes how the great Urdu writer Qurratulain Hyder, who passed away last year, had predicted the future of Pakistan in the 50s. Qurratulain Hyder migrated to Pakistan, felt totally suffocated and returned to Bombay.
It is not a coincidence that Qurratulain Hyder, grand dame of Urdu literature, is remembered whenever we are faced with crises of state and society. Hyder was not just a fiction writer but a chronicler, for her sense of history remains unparalleled in the annals of South Asian vernacular literature. Her magnum opus “Aag Ka Darya” (AKD) was written and published in the highly contested milieu of the post-partition Indian subcontinent
. . . a passage in the novel when one of the English characters, Cyril Ashley, while traveling on a steamer to East Pakistan encounters an army officer. The scene is quintessentially Hyder. The ambience, the pace of the steamer are almost palpable. The army officer of a united Pakistan turns around and tells Ashley that he would celebrate the day West Pakistan got rid of the Eastern wing. This scene was set in the 1950s when the independence movement for Bangladesh was nowhere in sight.
“Islam! Islam has had a rough ride here. If the Pakistani team begins to lose at cricket, Islam is endangered. Every problem in the world is ultimately reduced to this word Islam. Other Muslim countries resent the fact that the sole contractors of Islam are these people from Pakistan. Everything is being upholstered with narrow-mindedness. Music, art, civilisation, learning and literature, are all being viewed from the perspective of the Mullah. Islam, which was like a rising river whose majestic flow had been augmented by so many tributaries to turn it into a cascading force, has been reduced to a muddy stream which is being enclosed from all four sides with high walls.”
The seeds of Islamism and its hideous manifestations had been sown long before the barbarism of today, which is its ripened and bitter fruit.
This passage from AKD is sadly fresh and relevant: “The joke is that those who raise the slogan of Islam with the loudest voices have nothing to do with the philosophy of this religion. The only thing they know is that the Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years, that they ruled Bharat for a thousand years, and the Ottomans kept Eastern Europe subjugated for centuries.”
In these passages, Hyder also foresees the Mohajir identity and how politically explosive it was. This was of course much before the rise of Mohajir politics. There are references to militarism when the characters recount how the new Islamic state was going to find a saviour in the form of a military ruler. The ultimate capture of Pakistani state-power by the military was also hinted at. It is as if Hyder were an oracle.
and
AjayKK wrote:
SSridhar wrote:In this TFT article, extracted below, the author describes how the great Urdu writer Qurratulain Hyder, who passed away last year, had predicted the future of Pakistan in the 50s. Qurratulain Hyder migrated to Pakistan, felt totally suffocated and returned to Bombay.
Qurratulain Hyder was lucky. She returned back from the Land of the Pure after living only a few years.
The fate of Josh Malihabadi was worse.

During the time 0f 46-47, Urdu magazines had a huge Pak leaning.
It was being said in these that Urdu and Mussalmans would have no future as everything would be Hindi-ised. Sardar Patel thought about breaking the monopoly of the Pak leaning Urdu magazines and their grip on the Urdu speakers. He wanted an Urdu magazine/newspaper with a Bhartiya nationalist outlook.

The Urdu news paper AajKal was financed and its editor was to be found. Josh Malihabadi, an alcoholic was a comrade poet of the times. He was given editor's job for AajKal. By 1951, Sardar was gone but he had succesfully completed his project of an Indian Urdu magazine. and Josh Malihabadi got fame and appreciation and established himself as a nationalist. He was awarded the Padma Bhushan in 1954.

When Iskander Mirza came to power around 1956, he started the "Poach Indian Muslims" project by which well known and not so well known Muslims were asked to settle in Pakistan in lieu of cash, land an some licens es fo some industry. They were portrayed as true believers who rightfully chose Pakistan over India as the home of Muslims. So Josh Malihabadi , who was comfortably living in India, one fine day migrated to Pakistan. Nehru knew before hand but did nothing to prevent him. Iskander Mirza was again delighted having score one more point over kuffar Indians. Josh Malihabadi got 50 acres and some cinema house permit.

As things happen in pakistan, Ayub Khan sent Iskander Mirza packing and our poet Josh Malihabadi fell out of favour. He was branded as Indian agent ( :lol: ), all his licenses got him no businesses as financers were afraid to back him, his publisher backed out and his 50 acres of land got confiscated. More here.

Enlightenment on him, he decided to come back to India, but none was prepared to recieve him. All the light of Ummah could not save him. Finally, he met his 72 in a sad way.

and...
RajeshA wrote:It is indeed amusing to learn about these personalities, who dallied between Bharat and Pakistan. In fact stories of people like Qurratulain Hyder and Josh Malihabadi should serve as reminders to Indian Muslims who may have a soft heart for Pakistan. Perhaps these stories should find home in some Thread on the lines of "Formation of Pakistan: The Real Story"; either the same thread or another one: Indian Muslims and Pakistan: A History of Disappointment.

Just my two eurocents!

Dont price yourself low for there are others who will do it for you.

Thanks for the suggestion.

ramana
Abhi_G
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Abhi_G »

Old news - Ghazal singer Mehdi Hassan and the bounced cheque:

http://karachi.metblogs.com/2009/03/22/ ... ced-check/
It is being reported that the President Asif Zardari and the chief minister of Sindh have provided Rs1 million and Rs250,000, respectively, for the treatment, while a cheque for Rs500,000 that was received from the Punjab government after the then chief minister Shahbaz Sharif visited Mr. Hasan at the hospital could not be cashed due to the imposition of the governor’s rule in the province. In the aftermath of these events, the bounced cheque did go through but during the time being Mehdi Hassan’s son was told to meet with the governor of Punjab [Salman Taseer] to ‘sort out the matter’
ramana
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

X-posted.. Wish we retained the Understanding TSP psyche thread.
Kakkaji wrote:Paki 'expert' compares Paki and Indian visions, and says there is no meeting ground.

From this week's TFT:
Different strokes for different spokes

Moeed Yusuf

Indian and Pakistani visions are structurally out of sync and thus not only this thaw but all future thaws are likely to hit dead ends at some point

President Asif Ali Zardari’s meeting with Indian Premier Dr Manmohan Singh offers the first thaw in Indo-Pak relations since the Mumbai attack and raises the obvious question: will the next phase of talks be any different from previous rounds or will they remain shy of normalisation?

Short answer: the latter is more likely. Here are the reasons.

To understand the complexity of the bilateral relationship, it ought to be studied at three distinct levels – the conceptual, the strategic, and the tactical.

The rub is in the way the two sides view themselves conceptually. Consider that the South Asian region is one where member states are bound by a hub-and-spoke model. Historically, culturally, and geographically (with the exception of the Maldives), India can be envisioned as the pivot with the spokes leading to each of the states on the periphery.

Inter-state relations within the region have tended to follow a rather elegant logic. Accounting for almost 76 percent of South Asian GNP, 64 percent of the export trade, and 74 percent of the region’s population, India justifiably sees itself as a hub that ought to be allowed to retain substantial influence over the foreign policies of the periphery. Indeed, whichever state on the periphery has fallen in line with this logic has managed to improve ties with New Delhi, albeit at the cost of substantial interference by the latter.

It is remarkable how neatly the trajectory of Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Nepalese, Bhutanese, and Maldivian relations with India fits an inverse relationship with the level of assertiveness by the states on the periphery at any point in time.

The only country in the periphery that has persistently attempted to stand up to the hub is Pakistan (others have only done so at particular moments). Indeed, Pakistan’s regional policy has been driven by this singular goal: not to allow India hegemonic influence over itself, and even the region. Conceptually, then, Pakistan’s stance creates a fundamental disconnect, thereby throwing the hub and one of its spokes out of harmony. While the hub supports a hegemonic coexistence on its own terms, one spoke wants to defy exactly that.

The conceptual feeds into tangible strategic decisions taken by both sides: throughout history, India and Pakistan have been involved in one-upmanship, each attempting to force the relationship in a direction that would suit its conceptual outlook. In fact, a number of key strategic decisions are easily traceable to the conceptual.

The direction of strategic alliances is a pertinent example. The Pakistani and Indian tilt towards opposing camps during the Cold War was a means to balance the other. Pakistan’s all-weather friendship with China was also conceived as a mutually beneficial arrangement aimed at keeping India at bay. Further, Pakistan’s excessive attention to Indo-centric defence expenditures is borne of the same logic, as is the fact that Pakistan and India have always opposed the expansion of each other’s clout at world fora. Pakistan’s objection to India’s UN Security Council bid and India’s reluctance to allow Pakistan entry into groupings such as the Indian Ocean Rim Countries Association are obvious examples.

Next, Pakistan has traditionally favoured a ‘look west’ policy in a quest to escape the South Asian hub-and-spoke model. A self-portrayal of the polity as a Middle Eastern rather than a South Asian one is one of the aspects of Pakistan’s identity crisis and an outcome of the obsession to avoid Indian hegemony. Pakistan’s recent reluctance to allow integration of the two economies can be explained through the same lens. Success of liberal peace theory, which argues that trade could push all other concerns to the backburner, would amount to a failure of Pakistan’s vision of itself as more than just a “peripheral” entity.

As for India, there has been no let up in attempting to establish influence over Pakistan and punishing it for not falling in line. The break-up of Pakistan in 1971 is a good example of an instance where New Delhi saw cutting Pakistan to size as a major achievement. From New Delhi’s perspective, it was one step closer to weakening Pakistan to the point that it would be forced to behave like a pliant spoke. The current Indian policy of reaching out to Pakistan’s western neighbours – the encirclement policy as perceived in Pakistan – while aimed at extending Indian presence westward also squeezes Pakistan’s manoeuvring space as a diplomatic spin-off for New Delhi.

Finally, the strategic disharmony in outlook means that both sides have seen stirring trouble in the other’s territory as perfectly legitimate. For much of their histories, support to insurgencies and periodic acts of violence perpetrated against the other have been a major part of the terms of reference for intelligence agencies on both sides.

The causal chain is completed by the third-tier of analysis: tactical policies on specific issues. If the conceptual thesis has merit and if the inferred strategic implications are valid, then tactically, a disconnect on major issues is inevitable.

Kashmir is undoubtedly the bone of contention. Traditionally, maximalist stances flowed out of concern about the hub-and-spoke model. Giving up on Kashmir would in and of itself have meant an irreparable loss to the loser’s South Asian vision.

Interestingly, the severity of divergence on the issue is evident from the fact that when Pakistani domestic troubles have forced it to show considerable flexibility and essentially leave it amenable to solutions that provide a face-saver, the Indian calculation still does not warrant any concessions. The fact is that Indian political realities do not support any solution that involves a Pakistani role in Indian-occupied Kashmir. India’s progression in terms of its global stature has made it even less accepting of balanced negotiations with Pakistan. Moreover, with most external actors weighing in on its side, it sees no need to alter the status quo. Stubbornness on its part strengthens its vision of the South Asian hub-and-spoke model; concessions would imply a weakening of the pivot.

Trade between India and Pakistan is another much-debated concern. For one, realising that the integration of economies on India’s terms is a non-starter, New Delhi has sought to punish Pakistan by isolating it from the trade regime. Consider that all sub-regional or extra-regional trade arrangements involving India keep Pakistan out. Pakistan on its part has looked westward and engaged bilaterally with regional actors to avoid Indian clout.

Also, trade complementarities between the two sides are not a foregone conclusion. Despite widespread rhetoric, a number of recent studies point to the similar production structures of the two economies to dampen some of the euphoric pronouncements.

For Pakistan, the bad news is that the short run will entail disproportionate gains for India. While long term balancing is possible, this may require a virtual transformation in production structures across various sectors with attendant domestic negative spin-offs. Not to mention, given that a bulk of the near-term gains in bilateral trade are likely to come through the switching of current trade relationships to new customers within the two countries, in a scenario where past experiences point to unreliability of the adversary in terms of fulfilling trade obligations, business communities in Pakistan (and for that matter India) are sure to consider such diversion a high-risk proposition. In short, enhanced trade does not fit Pakistan’s South Asian vision neatly.

To cite another current example, India’s transit trade facility to Afghanistan is contentious for the same reason. Rhetoric aside, India itself is reluctant to use the land route without extensive guarantees by Pakistan. This is understandable given that under no circumstances does it want to be held hostage to Pakistan. Neither does it want to give Pakistan such a central position in its outreach to Central Asia. This is why India has chosen to invest in an economically uncompetitive land route from Iran to Afghanistan, thereby foregoing the available option of utilising the Karachi port.

On transit trade, Pakistan’s concerns are the opposite. It would be amenable as long as it is not asked to furnish any special guarantees to India. Doing so would imply losing an important leverage point vis-à-vis New Delhi. Moreover, even a successful arrangement would ultimately imply increased Indian clout in Afghanistan, a possibility Pakistan is highly allergic to at present.

Let us now come back to the question posed at the outset: is the current thaw different?

The above analysis provides a clear answer: Indian and Pakistan visions are structurally out of sync and thus not only this round but all future rounds are likely to hit dead ends at some point. How can this change?

There are two possibilities: One, the Indian vision succeeds in that Pakistan becomes so weak that it has no option but to fall in line. The Kashmiri status quo would then become permanent, trade would be liberalised, transit trade with excessive guarantees provided, and so on so forth. Judging by Pakistan’s obsession not to allow this to happen despite its life-threatening problems at present, such a scenario would require a further deterioration of the Pakistani state. Essentially, we are talking state collapse.

This can be ruled out for the time being for two reasons. First, militarily, nuclear weapons and India’s growing concern about projecting maturity as a global actor have taken away all force-based Indian options. Second, the world, including India, realises the consequences in terms of the spread of terrorism should Pakistan implode. No one is willing to take that risk.

The second option is that Pakistan asserts itself successfully by closing the gap between itself and India’s might. Here, India may see the need to alter its South Asian vision lest it be permanently held back from its global aspirations, thanks to continuing tensions with Pakistan.

By all accounts, India’s growth trajectory makes this unrealistic. Pakistan is even unlikely to be able to keep its current level of disparity vis-à-vis New Delhi in the coming years. In short, outright conflict remains unlikely; yet complete normalisation is a far cry at the moment.

The writer is a research fellow at the Strategic and Economic Policy Research (Pvt Ltd.) in Islamabad. He can be contacted at myusuf@sepr.com.pk
JE Menon
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by JE Menon »

A typical cockeyed analysis.

An unfortunate inability to recognise realities, articulating wish rather than fact. It does not reflect the reality that Pakistan has never been able to do anything other than make a series of ad hoc arrangements - to help others further their strategic ambitions, and suffered the consequences thereof. It has allowed itself to be used and abused. Its only fixity has been an anti-India and anti-non-Muslim ethos... All in the name of Islam...
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SSridhar »

That article above cross-posted by Ramana, captures what troubles Pakistan right from the time the demand for Pakistan arose seriously in circa 1940. It is all about how to equal or exceed Bharat and how to destroy Bharat. It has never been about Pakistan itself, it has never been about how to improve the lot of the hapless millions of Pakistanis. The singular goal is 'destruction of Bharat'.

As usual, it lies. India never tilted during the Cold War era because of its calculations vis-a-vis Pakistan. What the Pakistanis fail to realize that notwithstanding India's dhimmitude, Pakistan is no match for India. Has never been and increasingly more so in the coming years. The Pakistani intellectuals, Generals and politicians have tended to look at India through their own attitudes and behaviour and of course the characteristics associated with dhimmis.

Phrases like 'Indian hegemony' or 'Pakistan more than just a peripheral entity' betray a mind of inferiority complex. This will only grow as months roll on. That's why Kashmir/Junagarh/Mongrol/Hyderabad/Indus River System were never the 'core' issues as Pakistan has been portraying to hoodwink the rest of the world and WKKs.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by kshirin »

[quote="Airavat"]For this thread an excellent book is The Shadow of the Great Game by Narendra Singh Sarila. Many of our BRF members have read this amazing book including Shiv and Johann.

The summary of this book is that the British administration in India allied with the Muslim League to keep the nationalist movement for Independence under check. They helped Jinnah against his Muslim rivals in the Punjab, UP, and Bengal, forcing these leaders to apply for dual membership to the League. But they stopped short of agreeing to the formation of Pakistan.

It was the Second World War, which started the process of the unravelling of the British Empire. It saw the emergence of the Soviet Union as a global power, once again reclaiming its postion in Central Asia and pressing south into Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan. To protect the oil wells, controlled by western companies, from falling into Soviet hands, the British Empire needed a reliable partner in northwestern India from where military and spying operations could be carried out against the Soviet Union.

If WWII had not occured, the British had plans of continuing their occupation of India well into the 1960s. Jinnah and his Muslim League would have been happy to continue as serville partners of the British in this situation, all their claims for Pakistan forgotten. With the war forever destroying Britain's global standing, the British administration in India and the UK, followed a policy of violence and intimidation against the nationalists (the massacre of civilians in Bombay during the naval ratings mutiny, the brutal use of military force during the Quit India movement where people were straffed by machine-guns from aircraft).

By contrast, to the planned communal terrorism of the Muslim League the British adopted a policy of: look the other way, take no effective action. NPA Smith, director of the Intelligence Bureau, wrote in a memorandum to the Viceroy Wavell who forwarded the same to London:

Grave communal disorder must not disturb us into action which would reintroduce anti-British agitation. The latter may produce an inordinately dangerous situation and lead us nowhere. The former is a natural, if ghastly, process tending in its own way to the solution of the Indian problem.[/quote]
Another excellent book by the same author is the Untold Story of India's Partition. Read with Prem Shankar Jha's Kashmir, C. Dasgupta's War & Diplomacy in K, these give a comprehensive and lucid analysis of the denouement. Sarila's book emphasises:

1. Britain's geopolitical imperatives (they knew India under Nehru would not be a military ally and he traces the genesis of the idea of Pakistan to these considerations in some British minds). He also thinks Congress leaders were naïve not to anticipate the geopolitics of the situation. Apparently they were not aware of the US role in pressurising the UK to concede Independence.
2. He concurs about Wavell's role BTW crediting him to be the brains behind India’s partition.
3. A point which caught my eye was the fact that though all TS papers are now declassified, the Mountbatten papers still are not.
4. He also outlines how the hatred most British civil servants came to harbour the nationalist movement titled them to favour Pakistan and its creation.
5. And yes, the trickery by which NWFP was subverted into Pakistan despite an anti Pak government there is described. Jha says that Hari Singh saw the carnage that partition and ML wrought next door and that led to his decision to join India.

Fascinating. BTW I couldn’t find the e-book that Ramana has posted, can you pl repost the link? I do think someone could make a brilliant case study blow by blow of this whole situation for teaching in schools and even make a movie out of it, like 13 Days, which is a brilliant movie on successful diplomacy.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by deWalker »

Johann wrote: Surinder,

I have never heard anyone describe Iqbal as a loyalist - his poetry was consistantly anti-colonial throughout, which is why Saare Jahan se Achha became one of the nationalist anthems. Iqbal's journey was from an Indian nationalist to a Muslim nationalist.
The story of Pakistan is of Independence from "the majority", not the British. The Iqbal of 1904 (when SJSA was published) was not the same Iqbal who cozied up to the British in the 30's, in which period he was quoted as saying "I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single state. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated Northwest Indian Muslim state appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of Northwest India." (See here). I fully agree with your earlier post that Iqbal and Jinnah's goals were at odds - my point here is that Iqbal was comfortable with continuing under British rule as long as it implied freedom from "the Hindus".

This is also true for the other leading light of Pakistan, Sir Syed. Again, a directly attributable quote pasted from here :
"At this time our nation is in a bad state in regards education and wealth, but God has given us the light of religion and the Koran is present for our guidance, which has ordained them and us to be friends. Now God has made them rulers over us. Therefore we should cultivate friendship with them, and should adopt that method by which their rule may remain permanent and firm in India, and may not pass into the hands of the Bengalis… If we join the political movement of the Bengalis our nation will reap a loss, for we do not want to become subjects of the Hindus instead of the subjects of the "people of the Book…"[19]

These Muslim leaders (and I do not include the majority of Muslims who *at that time* supported Indpendent United India) would rather live under British dominance than countenance a free and representative society in united India.

Diwakar
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

Johann wrote: Surinder,

I have never heard anyone describe Iqbal as a loyalist - his poetry was consistantly anti-colonial throughout, which is why Saare Jahan se Achha became one of the nationalist anthems. Iqbal's journey was from an Indian nationalist to a Muslim nationalist.
This dicotomy of Iqbal is not really explained. Pakistan historians keep blaming the Colonial Britain for their loss and early history during Partition but carefully omit the history where Jinnah and Iqbal were loyal to British for the ultimate aim of securing their goals. They also do not mention the larger goal of the greater Muslim region which Jinnah was planning. This loyalty to the Crown was there even when Jinnah was in Congress passing resolution against the colonial British. When he left Congress he went back to London to practice law instead of staying in India. He joined Muslim league only later when the British gave assurance.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote: This dicotomy of Iqbal is not really explained. Pakistan historians keep blaming the Colonial Britain for their loss and early history during Partition but carefully omit the history where Jinnah and Iqbal were loyal to British for the ultimate aim of securing their goals. They also do not mention the larger goal of the greater Muslim region which Jinnah was planning. This loyalty to the Crown was there even when Jinnah was in Congress passing resolution against the colonial British. When he left Congress he went back to London to practice law instead of staying in India. He joined Muslim league only later when the British gave assurance.
Cognitive dissonance is a hallmark of Pakistani thinking. Are we surprised such contradictions are the intellectual basis of the country known as Pakistan?
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by KLNMurthy »

Acharya wrote: This dicotomy of Iqbal is not really explained. Pakistan historians keep blaming the Colonial Britain for their loss and early history during Partition but carefully omit the history where Jinnah and Iqbal were loyal to British for the ultimate aim of securing their goals. They also do not mention the larger goal of the greater Muslim region which Jinnah was planning. This loyalty to the Crown was there even when Jinnah was in Congress passing resolution against the colonial British. When he left Congress he went back to London to practice law instead of staying in India. He joined Muslim league only later when the British gave assurance.
We should look at the feudal / aristocratic / undemocratic aspect of the Pakistani intellectual foundations. Their idea of Pakistan was a blend of domination of Muslim aristocracy over the Hindu counterparts as well as the masses, and a sense of identification with the British aristocracy / upper class. So, they wouldn't have any problem in switching between assertion of Muslim dominance (meaning muslim feudal dominance) and loyalty to their British peers / suzerains. It is the same dynamic that operates between vassal lords trying to become free of their suzerain--there is a lot of push and pull, give and take.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Paul »

Airvat, Ramana...a feast for your eyes.

Punjabi Musalmans
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Paul wrote:Airvat, Ramana...a feast for your eyes.

Punjabi Musalmans
Thanks a lot. Its amazing that this SDRE(moi) is considered an expert on the subject!
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

The Telugu TV channel TV9 had a program called Rahasyam(Secret) today July 4 where the anchor rehashed the Partition and the British perfidy in demobilising their troops while there were clear signs of riots. He also blamed JLN for not understanding the issues. The footage of Punjab riot victims was heartbreaking.

The anchor's last words were history will judge the Brits, the Indian and Paki leaders in poor light for their actions and inactions in the greatest massacres on the Indian sub-continent.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Op-Ed Pioneer
OPED | Monday, July 6, 2009 | Email | Print |


Pakistan’s wages of sin

Premen Addy

Mumbai yesterday, London tomorrow! This is the message sent out by BBC’s investigative reports on 26/11 which have revealed Pakistan’s skulduggery in its starkness. Terrorists have been called terrorists, not ‘militants’. Violent Islamism has been ruthlessly exposed

Mumbai’s 26/11 tryst with Islamism and its hours of terrorist hell were shown in vivid detail on prime time British television. The first was a half-hour report on BBC’s Newsnight programme with a commentary by Richard Watson. The second was Channel 4’s hour-long Despatches documentary. Both films drew heavily on tape recordings of the instructions from controllers in Pakistan to their Pakistani terrorist charges in India — compiled by Indian intelligence listening in — and snatches from the interrogation of the captured terrorist Ajmal Amir Kasab, together with the traumatised voices of Mumbai’s bereaved and injured and the narratives and reflections of ordinary policemen and senior officers. With the scale of the Pakistani skulduggery revealed in its starkness, nothing was fudged. Terrorists were called terrorists, not ‘militants,’ as the media in Britain are wont to do. The story was told, step-by-blood-stained step, nothing extenuated along the way. The BBC film proved an appetising trailer.

The Channel 4 film — more satisfying in sight and sound — its words delivered at a perfect pitch and exquisitely crafted, carried an appropriate emotional charge. Some 10 million and more British viewers were brought face-to-face with a primal force, with evil incarnate. Mumbai today, London tomorrow was the message. Both films were at one relating the role of the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba in the commando-style attack, operated with military precision.

The Pakistani military and intelligence hand was self-evident. Nothing was left to the imagination. The terrorists, illiterate zombies all, were programmed by their masters back home and directed on the ground by controllers with satellite phones. There were jihadi exhortations, reminding the faithful of Islam’s war against unbelievers, of martyrdom and the paradise awaiting those falling in battle for the cause. And so the spree of murder and mayhem moved from setting to setting, the perpetrators convinced that a greater glory would be theirs to savour.

In this remorseless tide of depraved blood lust, two incidents stood out. A Turkish couple, held hostage in the Oberoi Hotel, owed their lives to the recited Quranic sura for the dead uttered by the man as those around him lay dead. Realising they were Muslims, the gunmen spared the pair as ‘brother’ and ‘sister’. They were in shock when they recounted their traumatic ordeal.

The second incident relates to the Jewish Chabad Centre at the city’s Nariman Point. The controllers directed their killers to the building and ordered them to shoot the resident Rabbi and his pregnant wife — which act was duly performed, but not before the doomed couple were subjected to horrific tortures. The assassins had been told that the life of a single Jew was worth 50 other human lives, that the Jewish people were Islam’s foremost enemies. It is a familiar cry on the Arab street and beyond, from the slums of Karachi to the salubrious, leafy cantonments of Lahore and Islamabad and immigrant ghettos in London, Paris, ,Amsterdam, et al.

Meanwhile, Kasab had been taken prisoner; his controllers were desperate to see him freed. An elderly Jewish woman hostage, a visitor at the Nariman Point centre as it happened, was brought to a terrorist’s phone. The man at the other end, speaking fluent English, as is the custom with senior Pakistan military officers and bureaucrats (the terrorists were restricted to Urdu), asked the lady to call the Israeli Consulate with an appeal to the Government of India for a swap: Her freedom and that of her husband for Kasab’s release and getaway. The fruity voice assured her that she had nothing to fear and would soon be on her way to celebrate the Sabbath.

The exchanges between the gunman and his controller grew fraught as the hours ticked by. Eventually, the voice, having lost patience, issued an order that the Jews be shot. The gunman appeared to procrastinate. The summons sharpened and his resolve weakened. Came a loud gunshot, then a chilling silence. In the milling crowd outside was the Indian nanny clutching the dead Rabbi’s little child. It was an unforgettable image, one that will surely endure for those who witnessed it first-hand and many millions more in television audiences throughout the globe.

Whatever the contrary wails of pusillanimous, overblown celebrities such as Nobel laureate Amartya Sen (the cross of Jesus was light in comparison) and his show pony Martha Nussbaum and their loquacious, self-serving ilk, truth is that Islamism is at war with the civilised world: A war of the worlds unlike HG Wells’s in its concept but bearing more than a passing resemblance in subtext. The late professor Samuel Huntington, of Harvard University, was reflexively pilloried by many of the lazy Left-liberal great and good for exploring a subject they had consigned to purdah.

British Foreign Secretary David Miliband, an incredible hulk of arrogance and insensitivity, preached Kashmir to his Indian hosts in the aftermath of 26/11; the harridan Oxford don Maria Misra, whose anti-Indian diatribe in The Times pointed to the Mumbai carnage as just retribution for the country’s alleged oppression of Muslims; and the cadaverous Polish American Zbigniew Brzezinski whose boast, that as US National Security Adviser in the Carter Administration, he had brought militant Islam into play against the Soviet Union: These invite our scorn and contempt.

In seeking to crucify Russia, Mr Brzezinski has instead dug a snake pit for America. Such are the wages of sin, whose toll includes peace of mind.

Islamism, once a trusty instrument in the perpetuation of British imperial power in India and West Asia, and its destructive uses by America in the Cold War, is much like an awakened science fiction dinosaur coming home to roost. Mohammed Ali Jinnah was surely the original Islamist Dracula, his successors, vampires of the night.

Pay heed to Islamism’s 20 primordial calls. “I shall cross this sea to their islands to pursue them until there remains no one on the face of the Earth who does not acknowledge Allah.” (Saladin, January 1189.)

“We will export our revolution throughout the world... until the calls ‘there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah,’ are echoed all over the world.” (Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini,1979.)

“I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his Prophet Mohammed.” (Osama bin Laden, November 2001.)

Do not say we weren’t warned.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Have we read this book already?

Pakistan: Its ideology and Foreign Policy by Arif Hussain.

google books.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Have we read this book already?

Pakistan: Its ideology and Foreign Policy by Arif Hussain.

google books.
Image
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Related to this thread. Wish the psyche thread wasnt trashed.

The hills grow distant - K. Subrahmanyam
After the end of the Kargil war, a veteran Pakistani journalist and confidante of Field-Marshal Ayub Khan wrote a series of four articles in the Pakistani daily Nation titled “Four wars, one assumption.” The four wars he referred to were the the Kashmir conflict 1947-48, the Indo-Pakistan war of 1965, the war of 1971 and the Kargil war. He asserted: “The point is that all these operations were conceived and launched on the basis of one assumption: that the Indians are too cowardly and ill-organised to offer any effective military response which could pose a threat to Pakistan. Ayub Khan genuinely believed that as a general rule Hindu morale would not stand more than a couple of hard blows at the right time and place.”

...
In the Kargil war, Pakistan presumably set out to test a number of its assumptions. After becoming a declared nuclear power, they wanted to try out what the US strategists termed in the fifties as “salami slicing” tactics, as holding good in the sub-continental context. When the US was excessively focusing on building up nuclear arsenals in the fifties, the then US army chief of staff, General Maxwell Taylor, raised the issue whether nuclear capability could succeed in preventing a similarly armed nuclear adversary to salami-slice one’s territory through limited actions under a mutually deterred nuclear situation, discouraging escalation on the part of the attacked nation. The Pakistanis were already committed to their basic assumption that India would be deterred from escalating once they had occupied the Kargil-Dras heights. They relied on their assessment that the NDA government in New Delhi was relatively inexperienced and in the previous few years, under Narasimha Rao, the defence budgets had been cut in real terms. They were already wedded to their basic assumption that the Indian response would be inadequate once presented with the fait-accompli. They expected the matter to go to the Security Council and with a consequent ceasefire leaving them in possession of the captured territory. Kashmir would also have been brought to the international agenda since the secretary-general was for removing Kashmir from the UN agenda as it had not figured in any discussion for decades. Lastly, even a nominal victory in terms of altering the line of control in their favour would have been a big morale booster for the jehadi terrorists in Kashmir.
...
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It speaks volumes about the gullibility of our political leadership that they continued to believe in Sharif’s innocence for quite some time thereafter. Our leaders should have heard of the Ribbentrop-Molotov or Matsuoko-Molotov pacts where the signatories, even as they signed the pacts, were aware they were going to break them. This experience has some relevance to today’s situation when Pakistan’s political leadership assures India of its intention to take action against jehadi terrorists.

The Pakistanis, as they had earlier, woefully miscalculated. They failed to take note of the fact that mutual nuclear deterrence deters both the aggressor and aggressed from escalating, but the international community was not likely to consider it an escalation if the victim used superior force to evict the aggression and refrained from entering the aggressor’s territory. For this very correct evaluation of the international opinion credit must be given to Vajpayee and his advisers. After the initial delay the Indian armed forces rapidly mobilised to signal to Pakistan that India was ready to use necessary force to evict the aggression. The use of the air force was critical. Kaiser Tufail’s account reveals that the Pakistani air force was not in a position to confront the Indian air force.
...
...
This sense of manifest destiny, and their own myth-making, their overconfidence in their ability to outwit the US, gave them as they did to the Nazis — a sense of their superiority and the inevitability of them emerging victorious. This is not a universally shared feeling in the Islamic world. But this cult intensely believed in by the Pakistan army and the ISI led to the Kargil war and poses an international threat in the Af-Pak region. Kargil was an episode in the campaign of this jehadi cult.
...
I think we should expore the Nazi business a little more and see how the Pakis are the new Nazis. the parallel is the superiority complex- eg. TFTA complex versus SDRE Hindus and 1 TFTA soldier equals ten Hindus etc., and the inveitability of emerging victorius (millienial complex). In addition a siege mentality of a minority sorrunded by impure others. And the vast admiration for Germans and reciprocated- note AQK and his stolen German Dutch centrifuges.

Above all the idea of being the vanguard of a new faith(islam in sub-continent) or revival is the core similiarity. The Nazis had a similar idea of being the new Christians for the new era- without Rome, without Jews etc., etc. A de-Hebrewised Christian society that was Hitler's message and lurks in every European.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:I think we should expore the Nazi business a little more and see how the Pakis are the new Nazis. the parallel is the superiority complex- eg. TFTA complex versus SDRE Hindus and 1 TFTA soldier equals ten Hindus etc., and the inveitability of emerging victorius (millienial complex). In addition a siege mentality of a minority sorrunded by impure others. And the vast admiration for Germans and reciprocated- note AQK and his stolen German Dutch centrifuges.

Above all the idea of being the vanguard of a new faith(islam in sub-continent) or revival is the core similiarity. The Nazis had a similar idea of being the new Christians for the new era- without Rome, without Jews etc., etc. A de-Hebrewised Christian society that was Hitler's message and lurks in every European.
Ramana, I had posted earlier my comparisons between the Nazis and the Pakistanis. I can post again if you want.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Please do so. Due to the Holocaust trauma, the study of Nazis by non-Judeo Christian peoples is a much neglected discipline. The Nazis inspired many other exclusivist movements all over the world. What is not clear is what drove the Nazis? We can study that in the Non-Western World view thread.

But please do post the similarities between TSP and Nazis here.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by p_saggu »

Well shrilleen's read all your thoughts on this subject, and has come up with the line "muslims are the new jews of ouirope". :roll:
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

p_saggu wrote:Well shrilleen's read all your thoughts on this subject, and has come up with the line "muslims are the new jews of ouirope". :roll:
Not only that she has learnt her lessons well: The oppressor claiming to be the oppressed!

Seriously we need to take this aspect into account.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by RajeshA »

The Muslims love to play the victims. It is the only way they try to justify the nature of the beast, that is Islamism.

The Muslims are so immune to logic and facts, that perhaps the only thing that can help is if one can publish a link to all the lies, trickery and barbarity of Islamists. A sort of a Wikipedia of Comparative Study of how Muslim societies treat minorities and those of weaker Islamic sects and how others societies treat their Muslims - a Satyapedia!

Any Satyapedia page can contain taking the example of Danish Cartoons:
  • Context and Facts of Event
  • Justification and Clarification of Event by the Initiator or Involved Parties
  • Reaction of non-Muslims of the Area (activities & media)
  • Reaction of non-Muslims of the World (activities & media)
  • Reaction of Muslims of the Area (activities & media)
  • Reaction of Muslims of the World (activities & media)
  • Basis of Complaint by the Muslims
  • References from Qu'ran, Hadiths, Sunnah, etc.
  • Statements from Ulema
  • Defense of Event on the basis of Ijtehad (& comments)
  • Defense of Event on the basis of Individual Freedoms & Local Law (& comments)
  • History of similar violations of principles (lying at the heart of complaint) by Muslims wrt other Muslim sects, and reaction of Muslims to them
  • History of similar violations of principles (lying at the heart of complaint) by Muslims wrt non-Muslims, and reaction of Muslims to them
  • Quantitative Comparisons
These Islamic Crusaders like Shireen Mazari thrive on lack of such a Satyapedia.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Please do so. Due to the Holocaust trauma, the study of Nazis by non-Judeo Christian peoples is a much neglected discipline. The Nazis inspired many other exclusivist movements all over the world. What is not clear is what drove the Nazis? We can study that in the Non-Western World view thread.

But please do post the similarities between TSP and Nazis here.
One animated woman showed me a book on Nazi Hitler yesterday and said it contains all the information how the civil society was indoctrinated into the propaganda. She met Germans who were kids during that period and who now recall how naive they were and believed in all the things said by Nazis. Lot of these information was suppressed and now they are open.
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SSridhar »

A comparison of Pakistan and Nazi Germany
It has been said that the Nazis were radicals in the garb of the traditionalists. They placed emphasis on such things as honour and dignity as well as Christianity. In their scheme of things based on the Aryan Master Race, moral obligations are owed only to them but not to the inferior races. The Nazi attack on the Jews stemmed from the fact that they were superior and were committing all atrocities (which to them were glorious deeds) for the common good of the superior community.

Similarly, Pakistanis and their regimes were also religious fundamentalists in the disguise of “traditionalists”. Having sliced a secular Bharat into two to get his Islamic country, Jinnah could not have reasonably expected anything other than religious fundamentalism as time passed by, especially as Islam does not have the concept of separation of the Church and Caesar. On the contrary, Islam pervades every aspect of individuals, societies and governance. The traditional society that Pakistan inherited was already used to placing ‘honour and dignity’ above anything else and the federal government could not stop crimes being committed on that account. Barbaric practices of honour and dignity such as Wani, Swara, Karo-Kari thrived and were not curbed. ‘Honour and Dignity’ was used to inspire terrorism against India and possibly even other infidel countries.

Both placed too much dependence on the military might to achieve their goals. Both of them believed in their racial superiority and eliminated the minorities in their respective countries, Jews in the case of Germany and Hindus, Sikhs and Christians in the case of Pakistan. In fact, some of the hardline Deobandi clerics, like Zafar Usmani who wanted a separate nation felt that a union with the Hindus will erase their cultural identity and only when the Muslims were the rulers they could wipe out the majority Hindu’s culture.

Both Pakistan and Nazi Germany felt stifled by their geography and needed to expand space. It was ‘lebensraum’ in the case of Germany and “Muslim J&K” and ‘strategic depth’ of Afghanistan in the case of Pakistan. Both relied on a massive propaganda of half-truths and naked lies to not only hoodwink their own people, but the rest of the world as well. Both created a mass hysteria among their peoples to achieve the goals of a scheming few. Both misused religion to achieve their narrow ends, Germany, by condemning one religion and Pakistan by extolling one to the total exclusion of others. Both employed extensive, sometimes subtle and many times blatant, social engineering to condition the minds of their peoples. The Nazi Germans believed that their actions were morally correct helped by the intelligentsia and academic who justified Nazi actions. Same has been the case in Pakistan where the mullahs incite people and justify jihad, terrorism and suicide bombing.

Both were evil powers bent upon death and destruction. Both talked of 1000-year wars. Both indulged in genocide and massacre, Nazi Germany those of the Jews and an Islamic West Pakistan, the Muslims and Hindus of East Pakistan and Christians all over the world. Both developed WMDs (V2 rockets and almost a nuclear weapon in the case of Germany and nuclear weapons and missiles in the case of Pakistan) with the sole intent of using them, not merely for deterrence. Even their tactics bear a lot of resemblance. For example, both resorted to circulating fake currency in their enemy countries to destabilize them, both spewed out lies to their own countrymen and the rest of the world etc.

Both were racists, Hitler’s Germany believing in their Aryan master race while Paksitan believed in their own martial race and held the Indians and the East Pakistani Bengalis to ridicule for being cowardly, dark, short and mostly rice-eating. Interestingly, both referred to their countries as “Fatherland”. Both gave international covenants and practices a go by and indulged in reckless actions. Both were appeased early on by world powers, by Neville Chamberlain of Britain in the case of the Third Reich and successive US regimes in the case of Pakistan, much against saner counsel from others. While Germany turned against Britain later on, we are yet to see Pakistan do the same against the US overtly. However, a large majority of Pakistanis, including influential members of the Pakistani intelligentsia and the armed forces, see the US as a villain. Both countries entered into “alliances” with others with the sole intent of pursuing their own war ambitions. Both of them wanted to rule the world. While Hiltler’s Germany believed that as the master race, they had the mandate to rule the rest, most Pakistanis felt that they were the uncrowned leaders of the ummah and hence were legal descendants of the Islamic caliphate. The rulers of both the countries conducted plebiscites to consolidate their power. Hitler conducted one on Aug. 19, 1934, after the death of Chancellor Hindenburg, to be ‘accepted’ by the Germans as the head of state or Führer (leader) and Reich Chancellor, both rolled into one. The Army rulers in Pakistan also resorted to the same tactics. Both Pakistan and Nazi Germany had an affinity for “Thousand Years”. While Nazi Germany’s Third Reich spoke of a “Thousand Year Rule”, Pakistani leader Z.A.Bhutto spoke of a Thousand Year War with India.

Both nations blatantly violated international treaties or norms of diplomacy. Germany violated the conditions of the “Treaty of Versailles” and annexed Saar region and Rhineland, thus gaining valuable economic and industrial strengths. Again, in blatant violation of the Treaty, Hitler built up a huge Army and Navy. The European Powers simply registered verbal protests and did nothing beyond that. In fact, Britain went to the extent of appeasing Hitler by entering into a naval pact with Germany. Similar was the case in Pakistan. In blatant violation of the India Independence Act, Pakistan wanted to annexe Kashmir under the pretext of that area being Muslim-majority while the real reason was economic and security. Again, in blatant violation of international treaties, it proliferated missiles and nuclear weapons. The US and the friendly Western powers simply kept quiet but for occassional objections of a routine nature.

There are other similarities as well, like their belief in and propagation of a “bogus history” leading even to “fabricated” civilizational aspects. While the Nazis made their people believe in a superior Master Aryan race, the Pakistanis tried to inculcate among their people a myth that they belonged to races from Central Asia or even the Middle East. The attempt in both cases was to segregate and elevate one set of people from the others leading to xenophobia. The Nazi Germany went to great lengths to identify certain racial features that made them superior to the others. As Hans F.K. “Rassen” Gunther, a reputed Nazi anthropologist of those times describes Aryans in his The Racial Elements of European History, “talented and beautiful...slim, broad-shouldered, narrow hipped...chiselled features, shining skin flushed with blood etc..”, so too many Pakistanis believe that they are “tall, fair, well-built and handsome with longer penises” compared to Indians who are generally “short, dark-skinned and possessing shorter penises”. Similar to the Nazi obsession to introduce racism even in science by calling their brand of Physics as ‘Deutsche Physik’ and science as ‘Aryan Science’ and harass such brilliant physicists as Heisenberg or Einstein because they were Jews, the Pakistanis under Gen. Zia-ul-Haq introduced ‘Islamic Science’ and they also hounded out a brilliant and the only Nobel-prize winning Pakistani physicist Dr. Abdus Salam because he practised a brand of Islam unacceptable to the Sunni majority.

Again, like the Nazis, especially Hermann Goering, the Pakistani top generals also looted precious antiquities from Afghanistan after 1992 when the Taleban had captured major cities. The atrocities committed by their Armies are despicable. The Pakistani army launched Op. Searchlight in the then East Pakistan on March 25, 1971 and implemented a pogrom of genocide. Nothing exemplifies the brutality of the Army more than what its top most commander in East Pakistan, Gen. A.A.K. Niazi, said of the rapes there insensitively: “You cannot expect a man to live, fight, and die in East Pakistan and go to Jhelum for sex, can you?”. Both Nazi Germany and Pakistan employed terror as a tactics by the State organs to make their people submit to the will of the State. While the much feared Gestapo and Schutz Staffel (SS) were the instruments of terror in Nazi Germany, Pakistan employed various intelligence agencies like the most powerful ISI, the Intelligence Bureau (IB) tasked with internal political activities and the Federal Investigative Agency (FIA) tasked with investigation corruption cases. These Pakistani agencies regularly kidnapped and murdered hundreds of Pakistanis and only a suo motu step by the then Chief Justice of Pakistan, Mr. Iftikhar Chaudhry, in circa 2006 saved many of them. Both Nazi Germany and Pakistan have also employed the intelligence agencies extensively within their countries to suppress dissension, force disinformation and forcibly extract support for Government’s policies.

After the Potsdam Agreement of Aug. 1945, the victorious Allies, especially the Western powers, started the denazification process purging the bureaucracy and the military of these evil people. An almost similar process has been started in Pakistan as well after the 9/11 incident with the Western Powers, led by the US, have forced the Musharraf to start the process of “enlightened moderation” including altering the curricula being taught to the students. Though the detoxification process was more easily and verifiably implementable in Germany as the Western powers were occupying the land, the same is not happening to an equal measure of success in Pakistan for obvious reasons including the duplicity of Gen. Musharraf. It is no wonder therefore that the most widely respected clergy of Pakistan, Maulana Mawdudi of Jama’at-e-Islami (JI), admired the German Nazi and the Italian Fascist parties for their ‘blind faith’ and ‘totalitarianism’ because in an Islamic society as well, there can be no distinction between private and state’s affairs and masses must simply obey their rulers.

The student wing of JI, Islami Jamiat Talaba (IJT) terrorize campuses in the same way the Hitler Youth Brigade of Nazi Germany ran rampant across the German academic institutions. The Waffen SS, the criminal organization that under the control of the Wehermacht indulged in war crimes and the Holocaust, had a parallel organization in Pakistan, the jihadi Islamists. While Waffen SS had about a million strength, Pakistan had three million jihadi Islamists.

One of the most striking similarities between Nazi Germany and Pakistan was in the way they both handled the judiciary. Both of them dismissed the judges who were not compliant with the State’s ideology. In the case of Pakistan, such behaviour was not restricted to just the military rulers though they were the ones who directly dismissed and threatened the judges. The civilian rulers like Nawaz Sharif and Ms. Benazir Bhutto also indulged in such behaviour. While Nazi Germany’s judiciary went by the three cardinal principles of the Fuehrer, superiority of the Nazi Party and the superiority of the Aryan master race, the Pakistani judiciary went by the cardinal principles of the superiority of the Army and the religion of Islam. There were some exceptions, in the Supreme Court, for the latter though. Every Army rule required the Judges to take a fresh oath under the Martial Law or the Provisional Constitution Order (PCO). Anybody who refused to oblige was summarily dismissed. Gen. Musharraf’s handling of the Chief Justice, Mr. Iftikhar Chaudhry, is chronicled elsewhere here as well as the handling of Chief Justice Sajid Ali Shah by Nawaz Sharif. For her part, Ms. Benazir Bhutto, during her two tenures as Prime Minister, had suspended 42 judges for various reasons.

Even in the field of art, music and dance, there is a close parallel between what happened in the Third Reich under Hitler and in the sixty year history of Pakistan. The Third Reich frowned upon ‘degenerate art’, that is any art that was not furthering the Master Aryan Race and/or Germany. So also in Pakistan, all forms of art, music and dance were discouraged that were not in conformity with Islam. The people of Pakistan inherited the same forms of music and dance that India had been well known for thousands of years and yet these art forms practically disappeared in Pakistan very quickly. Gen. Zia-ul-Haq banned music, drama and dance as they were considered haraam in Islam. However, there is another angle to discouragement of art forms in modern Pakistan. The reason is similar to that of Nazi Germany where art forms that were construed to be ‘not belonging’ to the same class as the Aryan race were explicitly banned. Similarly, most of the art forms of the Indian subcontinent have the Hindu or Buddhist heritage and were thus anathema in the Land of the Pure. For this very same reason, such historic civilizational sites as Harappa, Moen-jo-Daro, Taxila have been in a state of total neglect.

In circa 1959, Ayub Khan setup the Auqaf Department to manage the waqf properties. The management of shrines and temples belonging to the religious minorities was also handed over to the Auqaf. During the regime of the pseudo-secularist Z.A.Bhutto, the powers of the Auqaf were enhanced manifold. The Auqaf has totally neglecetd to preserve the Hindu temples and Sikh gurduwaras scattered all over Pakistan. In many places, once magnificent temples have been leased out to commercial activities bringing in money for the Auqaf which will be spent on other Waqf properties. This is very reminiscent of how the Nazis razed down Jewish synagogues and used that space for building parks, apartment complexes etc.
abhischekcc
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by abhischekcc »

These Islamic Crusaders like Shireen Mazari thrive on lack of such a Satyapedia.
RajeshA,
I think we can start such a site ourselves. If you are serious about this, then I can contribute my time in setting up and maintaining it.

While at it, we might also document British atrocities. This has not been at all, and one of the reasons Anglo Saxon imperialists like Niall Ferguson are able to peddle their wares without any sense of shame is that there is not enough info to contradict them.
abhischekcc
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by abhischekcc »

The Muslims love to play the victims. It is the only way they try to justify the nature of the beast, that is Islamism.
Not just the Muslims. Most of the aggression has been justified in the name of defence. Even Cecil Rhodes thought he was defending British values and society by expanding the empire (basically robbing people who had never heard of Britain).
Paul
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Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Paul »

X-post

Something interesting I read in a website while googling...The Brits wanted to keep Balochistan as a independent state initially. The Baloch declearation of independence in august 1947 even had Caroe's blessings. The Pakistani takeover of the Khan of Kalat's state was not part of Caroe's plans.

They wanted to keep this area as a base for their forces and navy to keep a watch on the persian gulf and keep the Russians from getting to the "WELLS OF POWER".

It could be possible as the Pakistani state (Caroe called it NEW INDIA ) was an unknown entity in 1948 and in typical British fashion and they may have wanted to hedge their bets.
ramana
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

I am working on a org chart of the old Caliphate and see how the TSP state represents it. Can we have some refs to Islamic state organization in history: Arab, Persio-Arab, Ottoman and Sultanates in India.
Umrao Das
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Re: Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Umrao Das »

was not Kgoan garu who also returned with same thesis that majority are responsible for minority whip lash. Some what in the lines of SHirleen madam. I might be totally wrong like the idiot in Ryan's Daughter movie as delcared in Ms world 00 gang.. :mrgreen:
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