Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

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vsudhir
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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby vsudhir » 10 Jul 2009 23:24

While all this hope and change for PRC's oppressed minorities is very nice, I doubt any minority has a real shot at challenging PRC territorial consolidation. The PRC can and will wipe out, as in programmed genocide, the entire popn of the irksomes to catch the 2% of armed revolutionaries among them. End of the day, just like there were no Canaanites to mourn for Canaan, there will be no ethnic minorities to mourn human 'rites' in PRC. /Just my pessimistic reading of the situ.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby Anujan » 10 Jul 2009 23:28

vsudhir saar - you are right. This is nothing when compared to cultural revolution, leap forward or tinamen. How many weegours ? 20 million ? Kill 5 million, send 5 million to gobi le-education camp, and the remaining 10 million will willingly pile into a bus to work in a sweatshop in socks city.

In other news. The story of weegour reactionary splittist rapists.

This "mass incident" was precipitated by fatal attacks on Uighur workers, mentioned above, due to an "unintentional scream" of a female Han Chinese worker who now admits being startled when she mistakenly walked into a male Uighur workers’ dormitory.


BTW

There are 1000,000,000 cheeni forces in Xinjiang with 2 soldiers per weegour house. There is a permanent ban People below 18 and those who are in the employment of the cheeni guvrmand from going to mosques. There is a temporary ban on everyone from going to mosques. Still no love for the ummah from the leading light of the ummah ? No pledges for moral political and diplomatic support ? Will this be the new dual-core issue now ? Pakis disappoint me :(

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 01:47

Gawdless Commies nevertheless have sense enough to keep their bus fleet from going the Bangalore way
China bans Friday prayers at Urumqi's mosques
As part of its efforts to restore order in riot-hit Urumqi, China has ordered mosques in the city to stay closed for Friday prayers.


shiv: how come the Faithful in Bengalooristan haven't yet renovated the buses in response? Friday must be over there by now..

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby a_kumar » 11 Jul 2009 03:19

Turkey attacks China 'genocide'

What got Turkey's goat? That is pretty harsh language against a budding "superpower"!!

"The event taking place in China is a kind of genocide," Mr Erdogan told reporters in Turkey's capital, Ankara.
"
There are atrocities there, hundreds of people have been killed and 1,000 hurt. We have difficulty understanding how China's leadership can remain a spectator in the face of these events."

The Turkish premier also urged Beijing to "address the question of human rights and do what is necessary to prosecute the guilty"

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby paramu » 11 Jul 2009 03:30

Xinjiang = East Turkestan :twisted:

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby a_kumar » 11 Jul 2009 03:57

paramu wrote:Xinjiang = East Turkestan :twisted:


Aha!!

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 04:06

We have difficulty understanding how China's leadership can remain a spectator in the face of these events."


Of course they are not remaining "spectators". They have not just sent the Army, they have also unleashed their vigilante Han mobs to help beat up the "wiggels".

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby ashi » 11 Jul 2009 06:57

Urumqi: criticism and credit for the Chinese police
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterfoster/100002643/urumqi-criticism-and-credit-for-the-chinese-police/

A note on the performance of the Chinese police during this crisis: from what I’ve seen they have been highly disciplined and professional under extremely challenging circumstances and deserve real praise for this.


I don’t claim to be an expert in riot control, but I have reported on mass protests in many different cities around the world - in the UK (football riots in London), in Africa (Harare and Lagos), in Pakistan (Lahore, Karachi, Peshawar) and in several cities in India - and I’m happy to say that China’s police have showed far greater professionalism, discipline and restraint than I’ve observed in many of those places.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 07:02

They do have a lot of experience driving those tanks sooo professionally over the children, too...

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 08:24

Here is one reason why the Oiropeans are in no position to patronize the Chinese:
Marwa is already dubbed the “Hijab Martyr.” Many believe she was murdered because she’s Muslim and wears her religion on her head in a Hijab, the Muslim head cover. Her heinous cold-blooded murder in a Germany courtroom has sent shockwaves across the Middle East and now it is spreading across the world.

Marwa was 31 and three months pregnant, when she appeared at a Dresden courtroom to testify against a man who had already been convicted of verbally attacking her by calling her a “terrorist” at a playground with her 3-year-old son. Instead of justice, Marwa and her family were met by a tragic fate.

On July 1st, in the Dresden courtroom, the same man identified only as Alex M. stabbed her 18 times in front of her son and husband. As her husband tried to defend her, he got his share of the stabbing and he was shot by a police officer who mistook him for the assailant. Marwa later died in the hospital. Her husband is still in critical condition.

Two Egyptian researchers at Dresden University, Mohammed Ahmed Khalif and Magdi Khalil, told CNN that on that fateful day, their trust in Germany was shattered. “We have fear about our family here, about our children” said Khalif. He said he is disappointed by what he believes is a muted response by the German public and its politicians.

Khalil agrees with Khalif. He adds that some people in Germany could possibly harbor an anti-Muslim sentiment. He suggested twisting this around to see how people would react to the same story. “What do you think if we have an Egyptian guy who kills a German woman in a court? What do you think would happen,” he asked.

Germany’s government spokesperson Thomas Steg stressed, with his nose getting longer by the second, that, “In Germany we cannot tolerate, right wing extremism, hatred of foreigners nor Islamophobia.”

For many in Egypt and across the Middle East, this response came late and wasn’t enough.... Underneath the sadness of mourning, anger is brewing at what people in the Middle East call a hate crime. They are moved by news reports of how Marwa died. Many have taken to the streets, waving banners that call her stabbing death a hate crime and that it’s racially motivated. They say Marwa was killed because she’s Muslim and wore the Muslim headscarf. (Of course, Egypt is one of those Islamic Paradises where race/religion based hatred is completely unknown.., and they believe so strongly in fairness and justice towards minorities - such as the Coptic Christians.. :roll: ).

When they felt their calls for justice were going unnoticed, Egyptians along with other Arabs and supporters from around the world, took to the Internet, which has become the voice for the voiceless in the Middle East region.
They accused the media of failing to highlight the murder. They criticized Europe in general and Germany in particular for becoming increasingly extreme towards minorities, especially Muslims.

And on Facebook, they asked for justice; calling for the harshest possible sentence for the assailant and an apology from Germany. They created pages where people can pay homage to a woman who has now become known simply as the “Martyr of the Hijab.”

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby pgbhat » 11 Jul 2009 10:49

China's flood of fortune seekers unsettles Xinjiang

Code: Select all

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-fg-china-west11-2009jul11,0,2641204,full.story

Liu-uddin's story.
Wearing a dirty striped T-shirt, scuffed loafers and dusty cargo pants, Liu Xiuyi arrived in Urumqi last week after a 56-hour train ride that took him from the east coast to the farthest reaches of China's northwest.

Like the young Americans who in the 19th century followed Horace Greeley's imperative to "Go west, young man," the 26-year-old Liu left home in search of a job, space and opportunity. He knew nothing about the Xinjiang region except rumors that you could make more than $400 a month here, almost twice as much as back home in Jiangsu province.
"I heard everything was great here, but when I got in, everything was scary," Liu said in a thick country accent.

What Liu didn't realize when he boarded the train was that ethnic tensions in Xinjiang were exploding, fueled in part by the westward migration of people like himself.

Liu, the fresh-off-the train migrant, is a case in point. Although the job he'd planned on fell through, the day after he arrived he lined up another -- collecting flowers for a manufacturer of herbal medicines.

"It's possible they hate us because we're taking their jobs," said Liu, pointing nervously down an alley near the railroad station where he'd heard that bodies had been discovered. "I'm really scared of the Uighurs now. When I look into their eyes, I see wolves."

The Chinese government doesn't release figures on unemployment among ethnic groups. But a leading Uighur intellectual, Ilham Tohti, an economics professor at the Central Nationalities University in Beijing, has estimated that 1.5 million Uighur workers -- the equivalent of half the adult males -- are unemployed.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 17:37

The LATimes analogy is exact, and they should know. The American West was mostly empty, with a few buffalo hunters and corn-growers comprising the entire population, precisely because water was limited to a few places, the seasonal changes are harsh, and the expanses great. The entire western half of China is essentially empty today, with a few "natives" clinging to their "ancient culture" as an excuse for their utter failure to advance. The parallels are correct in other respects as well:

1. Tibet was the "forbidden land" where they were so Holy and Pure that they did not allow foreigners to pollute the air of their capital city. Until the PLA rolled in and flattened it.

2. Xinjiang was populated by people who were far worse invaders than the Chinese are. What business have Turkish Islamists in Xinjiang, one might ask. Xinjiang is Islamic, precisely because any ancient civilization that they may have had in the heyday of the Silk Road, was crushed when the Turkish invaders came down the road meant for trade.

Both Tibet and Xinjiang are on the Silk Road, linked to the rest of the world for the past "8 million years" as per PRC Tourism propaganda. They failed to use these links to advance their societies, preferring to remain reclusive and backward.

3. The notion that either Xinjiang or Tibet was at any time "non-violent", is utter nonsense. The Tibetan regime was pretty brutal. The entire history of Tibet is about as bloody as that of Scotland, all about this tribe coming in and torturing this other king's entire family to death and dumping their bodies in a cave, and enslaving their subjects. The "Forbidden" part of the "Forbidden City" was enforced through extremely painful death for anyone who tried to get in.

What we are seeing is simply another small chapter in a long and brutal history, but this one may be very long. With modern technology, the deserts of Xinjiang and Tibet can become habitable, and with the resources far below their surface, they may become the equivalent of Los Angeles in the not too distant future.

Urban sprawl, Great Wall to Great Wall. All mandarin-speaking. The PRC has airplanes and helicopters, and they already have excellent highways and railways. They don't have to ride like Custer's Cavalry. There won't be any "Lhasa" or "Urumqi". There will only be "Rasa" and "Wulumuqi".

So.. any official reactions to the happenings in Xinjiang should be tempered by that long-term vision. SOMEONE is going to populate Xinjiang and Tibet. Its not going to be Bhadrachalam Sukhvinder Singh Mishra who does it. So would you prefer that it is Abdul bin Kabul or Weigh Poo that populates it?

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jul 2009 18:06

narayanan wrote:So would you prefer that it is Abdul bin Kabul or Weigh Poo that populates it?
I personally don't have anything against Abdul bin Kabul! Abdul bin Kabul cannot be the dominant power in Asia. Rizald can be, and make the life of elephant difficult.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby Tilak » 11 Jul 2009 18:28

Chinese authorities will restore normalcy soon in the Xinjiang Region – Sri Lanka
Published by editor Sri Lanka Jul 11, 2009

Colombo, 11 July, (Asiantribune.com): Sri Lanka Governmnet has voiced confidence that efforts being taken by Chinese authorities will soon restore normalcy in the region.

In a statement released by the Sri Lankan Foreign Ministry revealed, “The People’s Republic of China and Sri Lanka enjoy abiding friendship and respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty. The Government of Sri Lanka considers Xinjiang as an inseparable part of the People’s Republic of China and that the situation there is an internal affair of the People’s Republic of China. While being concerned about the recent riots in Xinjiang in northwest China, the Government of Sri Lanka is confident that efforts being taken by Chinese authorities will soon restore normalcy in the region.”.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby VikramS » 11 Jul 2009 19:01

RajeshA wrote:
narayanan wrote:So would you prefer that it is Abdul bin Kabul or Weigh Poo that populates it?
I personally don't have anything against Abdul bin Kabul! Abdul bin Kabul cannot be the dominant power in Asia. Rizald can be, and make the life of elephant difficult.



Second that.

N^3 seems to forget that Pakiban would not have been the nuisance they are had it not been for the Lizald's nuke proliferation policy.

The Pakiban have strong survival instincts; they will let you live as long as you pay the Jaziya. The Lizard, in Mao's own words, would be happy to see the rest of the world destroyed as long as long as half of China can survive the war and dominate what is left of the world.

N^3 is missing the forest while being obsessed with the Islamist tree. The Islamists are just one weapon in the Lizard's arsenal. Obsessing about them while forgetting about the rest is dangerous.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby shaardula » 11 Jul 2009 19:10

suppose rizald is cut down to size. will it simply roll back all its designs and simple go and sit in the corner and let the elephant be? or will it only serve to make it more dependent on the pig?

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jul 2009 19:11

VikramS wrote:N^3 is missing the forest while being obsessed with the Islamist tree. The Islamists are just one weapon in the Lizard's arsenal. Obsessing about them while forgetting about the rest is dangerous.

n³ often speaks in riddles, and he puts so much sand on the ground, that one has difficulty in finding solid ground for one's arguments to stand on, still one needs to try ... :wink:

There were some rumors that n³ was wandering in the Gobi desert, so I wander whether he even found a tree there, let alone a forest. :)

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby VikramS » 11 Jul 2009 19:25

shaardula wrote:suppose rizald is cut down to size. will it simply roll back all its designs and simple go and sit in the corner and let the elephant be? or will it only serve to make it more dependent on the pig?


The issue is not what the lizard's intent will be. The issue is the lizard's capability.

A PRC which is forced to reconcile its internal schisms is less likely to succeed in its imperial efforts than a PRC with no internal schisms. If in our life-time, India is successful in converting Tibet into a demilitarlized buffer zone, the civilizational balance will be restored.

The pig is a tool in the lizard's arsenal. However even the control exercised over the pig is a correlated to the lizard's power. The non-Dharmic world respects only one thing: power. A weaker lizard can not exert the same influence over the pig as it could exert in the absence of any challenges.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby Philip » 11 Jul 2009 19:37

The BBC had some excellent pics of the Han police quietly beating,punching kicking and dragging away a few Uighars who had defied the ban and worshipped at the mosque.If this was the punishment on the sidelines ,one can imagine what those in detention are being subjected to! Good to see the Turks enter the verbal fray.I am usre that in the coming months,the "Weegers" will be getting some presssies from the bretheren worldwide with whcih to take on the Hans.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby Atri » 11 Jul 2009 19:40

Who populates Xinjiang - Abdul bin Kabuli or Huang ho liu is irrelevant to Bhadrachalam Sukhvinder Mishra until his access to central asia is blocked.

Whoever lives in Xinjiang and adjoining regions, now OR in past or in future; he will bear animosity towards elephant until he is sure that elephant can't reach his home to trample it down.

The tribal mentality of central asia is eternal enemy of the Dharmic elephant. Xinjiang and adjoining province is on the highway which promptly shows the directions towards India. As long as that highway is one-way, all the occupants of that region will detest the elephant.

Once the highway is made two-way and residents living in that region are absolutely sure that if they try to mess up with elephant, the big guy and reach their home and trample them, Huang Ho liu OR abdul bin kabuli OR mikhail Dostoevsky OR Daniel Martin OR Temujin Ghengis Khan, whoever the resident of that region might be, won't think of bothering elephant.

It all boils down to conquest of Northern areas and PoK and bringing Karakorum highway under complete Indian control...
Last edited by Atri on 11 Jul 2009 20:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jul 2009 19:43

shaardula wrote:suppose rizald is cut down to size. will it simply roll back all its designs and simple go and sit in the corner and let the elephant be? or will it only serve to make it more dependent on the pig?


Well there is a saying, and some Indians who forget the story of Krishna and Sudama, are great believers in it, that friendship can happen only between equals, and then one sees all the socializing restricted to same class membership onlee.

Otherwise one makes the decisions and the others just go along, i.e. if the weaker guy is lucky. If less lucky, it is one gives the orders, and the other has to follow. If one has the luck written by an donkey's 'pen', then the stronger simply exterminates the weaker, as is happening up north in Xinjiang.

So either the top guy is a believer in Dharma of Krishna, which puts the responsibility on India's shoulders to strive to be the top guy. :wink: , or India has to ensure that she is an equal of China, because only then can there be mutual respect and friendship and peace and samosas and chow mien. Otherwise we all are in deep shit.

So we have to strive to be an equal of China for the sake of 'Asian peace and harmony' :twisted: . For that they need to be cut to size and we have to grow strongly in the next decades.

Now the Uyghurs have raised their hands and said, "Hey you Indians, we will help you to cut the Lizard to size. We can bite one of its wings and sink our teeth in one of its legs. Would you like that?. The thing is, we will be using the only method, that seems to be promising, and that is Islamism. Hope you don't mind!"

To which I say, "Yes do it! I am fracking wild and ecstatic about being friends with the Dragon. When the Dragon is always in the air, we, the elephant and the dragon, can hardly be friends. So it is good if you bite off one of its wings, just nail it to the ground! Use as much Islamic toothpaste as you like for your teeth, no problem!"

As for the pig, it is going to roll over in so much of its own shit, nobody will be able to recognize it in the future! One feels pity for it, that its equal-equal could not succeed and its dreams of being friends with India were left unfulfilled. :((

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 20:20

It all boils down to conquest of Northern areas and PoK and bringing Karakorum highway under complete Indian dominance...


Conquest of POK/NA will result in Arunachal Pradesh becoming Weigh Poo Province. Well.. NOT doing anything about POK/NA is having the same result too, but that's another issue.

But a quiet deal where India suddenly realizes China's Internal Matters and Right to Ensure Peace and Tranquility in Xinjiang, and China looks the other way as NA is liberated, may be a good deal. There needs to be a solid uprising in NA, where the resident Faithful have far less rights than the weegers have.

OTOH, the reality of POK/NA tells us another solid reason why keeping quiet and avoiding further embarassment is a good idea for the elephant. If you can't do anything about the rats bothering you, what's the point in trying to scare the Big Lizard?

As 4 the non-danger from Islamism, well... consider that the best way out for US/UK from the Fak-Ap-Eyerak mess is to form an alliance with the Taliban. Read yesterday's YAWN about TSP facilitating talks between Mullah Omar and Mullah Obama. The writing is on the wall - the Fak-Ap-Eyerak Withdrawal and the Fak-Ap Offensive are both running into major disasters.

So what would be TSP's price for getting the Khanomy and Poodlenomy out of these cookie jars? Very simple. US/UK stay out of Central Asia or, even better, facilitate the Rise of the PUKISTTAn Caliphate. All of Central Asia dominated by the Greatest Al_lie of America and UQ in Asia. Allied with US-friendly Eyerak, against Iran and China.

Where does this leave India, and what do you see as a greater threat to the existence of India than this alliance?

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jul 2009 20:25

narayanan wrote:OTOH, the reality of POK/NA tells us another solid reason why keeping quiet and avoiding further embarassment is a good idea for the elephant. If you can't do anything about the rats bothering you, what's the point in trying to scare the Big Lizard?

But what is the need to throw scorn upon the rats, when they go after the Big Lizard? May be the Big Lizard would be more open for a grand bargain with the elephant, when it is sufficiently tormented by the rats!

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 11 Jul 2009 20:28

The rats are the Pakis. The weeghers are not even gnats for the Rizald. The level of violence in Xinjiang would not even make the international news if it were happening in India. Compare to the Naxal activities in Jharkhand, Orissa, WB and Andhra. And J&K has already been effective rid of the "coastal immigrants". This whole thing is a non-event, not some great watershed in Chinese/Central Asian evolution. Let's track where this thread is, say, on August 11.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby Atri » 11 Jul 2009 20:38

RajeshA wrote:
narayanan wrote:OTOH, the reality of POK/NA tells us another solid reason why keeping quiet and avoiding further embarassment is a good idea for the elephant. If you can't do anything about the rats bothering you, what's the point in trying to scare the Big Lizard?

But what is the need to throw scorn upon the rats, when they go after the Big Lizard? May be the Big Lizard would be more open for a grand bargain with the elephant, when it is sufficiently tormented by the rats!


Because the rats which are bothering the elephant are fed by the big lizard. This bribe makes them conveniently ignore the big lizard who is indulged in hunting the distant brothers of the PoK rats. The rats which are bothering elephant won't go after big lizard. Furthermore, their services are required by the eagle to trouble the pig.

It should be in elephant's 10-year agenda to strengthen its NE (which he is doing) and clear the NA/PoK of the Rat and Lizard influence.

Once access of elephant to CAR is firmly established, the partition is undone...

I was under impression that bhaarat did nothing about arming Tibetan refugees. But Rahul M's link dispelled my ignorance. I wonder, for which operations and purposes were the SFF (tibetan regiment) utilized by the elephant. With the hold of Dalai lama decreasing on Tibetans, I guess the time for using them is approaching.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jul 2009 20:47

Rats or Gnats, I understand, that they will not be able to wrench East Turkestan free from the clutches of PRC. That is not on the agenda for Indian Foreign Policy. One should acknowledge what are UNREALIZABLES in the foreseen future.

The agenda for India is to hope for a realignment of forces in Central Asia. Up till now China and Islam have been good pals. Uyghur Uprising is important only as far as it can break that partnership, which is important for India. So if the Gnats are doing something useful for India, why heap them with scorn!

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby Anujan » 11 Jul 2009 21:20

narayanan wrote:So what would be TSP's price for getting the Khanomy and Poodlenomy out of these cookie jars? Very simple. US/UK stay out of Central Asia or, even better, facilitate the Rise of the PUKISTTAn Caliphate. All of Central Asia dominated by the Greatest Al_lie of America and UQ in Asia. Allied with US-friendly Eyerak, against Iran and China.


N^3 you must be kidding here. TSP as of now and in the next decade would have scored a major achievement by staying intact and not losing too many to poverty and malnourishment. The country is in the ICU economically and is teetering on a precipice politically. One sunroof lever at the right place at the right time is enough for a coup. And you are talking about Pukistan dominating Central Asia ! Apart from the pious book, they have no cultural or ethnic shared values with *any* of the CARs. Neither do they have the political or military muscle to work out a Quid Pro Quo with any of them.

Leaving capability alone, if I were a Khan agint, I would need guarantees to make sure that the Pukis never again work against Khan interests. You let the Pakis dominate central asia and they will spread pakistaniat there and convert it into one big pakistan. Along the lines of the smaller pakistan the Pakis set up in A'stan. I would argue that the pakistan in A'stan is not that big a mess - people there have no money, very little people for the scale of attacks the mullahs keep having wet dreams about. On the other hand, now just imagine a very big pakistan (whole of central asia), except the piping there carries oil and is strategically located in the middle of the mall, so everyone needs it and every mullah in there wants to deliver a personal JDAM. Imagine the mess !

Unkil may be making chain-aman-allie-equal-equal noise in the media, but no fool there believes that eye-ass-eye and the paki jernails (Mushy inclusive) had nothing to do with keeda or the bunnies. There was a serving jernail who wired money to Atta and there is this story of this jernail whose mission was to convince mullah omar to let OBL go, but went there and convinced MO about how the mahdi is going to arrive soon and he has nothing to fear. There is *no* indication that Unkil has *any* support among the Paki public, the mullahs or even among the politicians or the Jernails. Unkil knows that they are GUBO-ing while wincing and will turn around and give a IEDmubarak the instant they dont need Unkil's money.

Where does this leave Unkil ? The utility of the pakis is limited to ratting out their ummah brothers who are plotting JDAM in foggy bottom. That can be purchased through a few carrots and one nicely oiled stick. No grandiose central asia domination here.

Central asia is the playground of the biggies. Russies/Unkil/Cheenis. Maybe even Saudis. Certainly not Pakis.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby SwamyG » 11 Jul 2009 21:32

I am willing to place some bet that if a Uighur came to this thread to read s/he would be little disappointed to read our thoughts. We Indians are treating them as chess pieces in a game. And we talk about Unkil, Ukstan and others using us in their game as chess pieces or as the end victory.

Obviously we are here to discuss the bharat perspective of things; but the title 'Understanding the Uighur Movement-1" seems to be misleading now. Choti mooh badi baath, maybe the title could be 'Uighurs China relations - What is in it for us?"

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby RajeshA » 11 Jul 2009 22:50

SwamyG wrote:I am willing to place some bet that if a Uighur came to this thread to read s/he would be little disappointed to read our thoughts. We Indians are treating them as chess pieces in a game. And we talk about Unkil, Ukstan and others using us in their game as chess pieces or as the end victory.

Obviously we are here to discuss the bharat perspective of things; but the title 'Understanding the Uighur Movement-1" seems to be misleading now. Choti mooh badi baath, maybe the title could be 'Uighurs China relations - What is in it for us?"

The Uyghurs as a culture, as an identity will soon be extinct. The writing is on the wall. The only thing left for them to decide is the style in which they want to make their exit from the world stage! That is the level of avarice of the Big Lizard.

They have my heart felt sympathies, but there isn't much one can give to them. Even if that was possible, it would still sound and look egoistic.

If they want, they can deposit a few artifacts with the National Museum in Delhi before they go. Disclaimer: It sounds a bit cynical, but what can one say!

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby shaardula » 11 Jul 2009 23:57

#1. the rizald is chiehanese, just like the pig is pakjabi. the rizald is not going to suddenly become enlightened and sing rang roop bhesh bhaasha chaahe anek hein and make love anytime soon. they have nurtured their country by stroking the han mijjile and i dont think they are going stop that anytime soon. so even if chiehanese win this round, as they will, they will have costs.

#2. i dont think anybody else is going to even try to break the status quo. turkey can shout because turkey has no consequences. it looks west. and china cant do much to it. but for other ME states china is a potential customer. they will keep shut. and so will the rest of ummah, who are just carriers of arab imperialism. so this thing is not going to boil anytime soon.

#3. indic sphere of influence, dharmic sphere of influence is all fine, some shankracharya sitting on that side of kaveri may perhaps still be telling us stories about our connections to those people from pre-vedic days, but it is also a fact of life that atleast for a couple of millenia we have had neither contact nor have had any influence on them. so lets keep it real.

only reason we could prolly stick out is to earn some brownie points and get even for all the tang-aDau that china does when it comes to india. but, really, what are the chances we are going to be effective? somebody here at brf said, dont unsheath your knife unless you are going to use it.

the world has always been big enough to accommodate both china and india.

swamy, this conundrum arises because you confuse dharma as moral. dharma is not as much a moral order as it is a natural one. any and all morality that arises from dharma is a consequence of the natural order that it primarily represents.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby SwamyG » 12 Jul 2009 01:20

You talking to me? Where did I say anything about dharma here?

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 12 Jul 2009 02:18

ArrahoAkbal!

Finally the news has made it to YAWN: MOSQUES SHUT DOWN AHEAD OF FRIDAY PRAYERS IN URUMQI!

This is a direct insult to the Honor and Dignity of Pakistan.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby VikramS » 12 Jul 2009 02:57

N^3, the Pakiban's ability to wear out the AmirKhan does not translate to a green light to expand its strategic depth. Pakiban may facilitate a truce, which might allow Hussein to pull back some troops, but Hussein will be a dead man if he lets AQ thrive again.

I might be underestimating the brilliance of duplicity, but very much doubt that after 9/11 and the decade of GOAT, Pakiban will be allowed to flourish in the old way.

Further even if Pakiban is given some more space to operate, India is in a much better situation to tackle the mess, and more importantly, respond in kind. Certain boundaries were crossed in Mumbai. Since then the situation in TSP has been getting worse every day. GOI response may not have provided the immediate gratification that everyone in the civilized world may have desired, but the screws have been tightening on the RAPE.

Coming back to the topic: A lizard which has to confront its internal schisms will likely slow down its empire building campaign. They have been slapping all their neighbors without impunity; especially when it comes to India. They truly believe that they are destined ruler of Asia; their response to the reallocation of Indian defense forces highlighted their cavalier imperialistic attitude.

Further, from purely a military POV, I am not sure they have the capability to conquer AP in the face of any resolute Indian reaction. Their supply lines are stretched; the new rail and road links can easily be disturbed with a few strikes in key areas. India for its part needs to ramp its on the ground network within the Chinese empire and develop the ability to strike behind the lines, and give a bloody nose to any Chinese misadventure.

The key thing to remember here is that the PLA/CCP can not afford to get even a bloody nose, if they start a military adventure, since any failure will weaken their hold on the empire. The CCP tries to play the role of the perfect God; any loss of face can lead to a lot of unintended consequences. As long as India maintains a credible deterrent with the declared will to give the PLA a bloody nose, any Chinese misadventure is likely to cause more harm to the PLA/CCP than the Indian state.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 12 Jul 2009 03:48

I would prefer not to get into a discussion of all the "bloody noses" and "befitting replies" that India has been giving and will give the PRC in the Northeast, Nepal, Ladakh, Karakoram region, Aksai Chin etc. since 1950. Causes me severe depression. Most recent news item was that a nice railway has come up right across from Arunachal Pradesh - or is it INSIDE the Former Arunachal Pradesh boundaries? No one will know for sure for another 10 years before we see a map published by the CIA, just as Indians remain(ed) ignorant of the true LOC in J&K for decades. India is being systematically and industriously outsmarted and basically left in the dust by PRC's infrastructure programs. Compare the reality in Arunachal Pradesh or Ladakh on the Indian side, to what the PRC has done even in Tibet and Xinjiang. Even today, uppity Plains Injuns go to these areas and put on acts like the Gora Sahebs of yore, with the locals condemned to be porters and hotel clerks and tax drivers.

I cannot honestly defend the Indian approach and callousness and sheer bloody incompetence. Enough said.

Inspired by Guru Acharya, I suspect that the Xinjiang situation is a direct response to the North Korea nuclear shenanigans (which is very obviously a puppet show run out of Beijing). Remember that about a week ago there was a pow-wow between POTUS and Czar? I wonder if there are any tensions developing on the Vietnam/Lizald border... or the Siberian border, but Khan influence in either of those theaters is rather dubious.

The connection to "right across from the White House" was waaaaaay too clear. Such an organization would not be allowed to sit so close to the WHOTUS and do what it did, without some VERY high level blessing. Note that the official Uighur liberation organization was put on the Foreign Terrorist list by the Dubya regime to appease Beijing.

OTOH, the cyber-attack against US and South Korea last week was pretty clearly Lizald-based. The "North Korean origin" was very obviously a thin cover meant to convey the message clearly -inside it actually said "From China". For instance, the virus was spread through internet pages, most conspicuously if someone clicked the stories covering the Xinjiang crackdown like on Yahoo.com. (I spent much of the week formatting HD and re-installing software.. :evil: )

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby VikramS » 12 Jul 2009 04:28

N^3 the pussilanimity of the past should not be an excuse to be deferential to the lizard in the future, unless it sheds its imperialistic ambitions.

The development of road-rail rinks shows the lizard's intentions. However, thanks the hundreds, if not thousands of miles these link have to traverse, they are very easy to disturb.

It is true that most Indian roads end 10-20Km from the border while the Chinese roads might as well end inside the Indian border. However the road has to reach somewhere. India needs to focus on the ability to cut off these road/rail links to make them meaningless in any sustained offensive. If AmirKhan's experience in Afghanistan is any lesson, defending those links is not easy against a determined adversary. What India needs to develop is the ability to fight a localized was on a sustained basis.

The past 20 years were a uni-polar world. It is now at a turning into a multi-polar world with China leading the wave. China is flexing its muscles and they have no qualms about it. India can either kneel down and pay homage as she has been doing for the past 50 years, or stand her ground. I feel it is time for India to stand her ground or risk being marginalized for a long time to come.

The time is ripe:

From an economic perspective, India is much better positioned to weather the current economic storm than China is. The entire Chinese model of export driven growth is at risk, not only from falling consumer appetite in the West but also from protectionist backlash. With their huge hoard of fiat currency, the Chinese are tied at the hip with the West and however much they detest it, they too will sink if the West sinks. Further unlike India where the GOI is seen as the last entity to foster economic growth, the CCP's hold on power is based on the economic miracle of the past few decades. As the economic growth falters, that hold is likely to weaken and the schisms likely to surface. The riots in the South China toy factory might have been engineered to drive the Uighur labor competition out of the Chinese heartland.

A runaway China will be a lot more difficult to handle than the European imperialists. The Europeans were in for the money; the Chinese are in for it for the land. The Chinese pose a fundamental existentialist threat to all its neighboring civilisations, because their system does not have any checks and balances in place to rein in an adventurous general; they have no qualms about millions of casualties and a brainwashed population which has no other choice but to worship the CCP.

India needs to assess the tools in its arsenal and start investing in them. The current political borders of the imperialist China run thousands of miles from its cultural borders; they provide ample space for a determined adversary to operate. The Chinese have done everything they can, even exporting the bomb, to undermine India; it is time for India to step up her efforts.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 12 Jul 2009 05:50

Interesting points, Vikram. I don't disagree with the aspirations, but I think the time has come, even on BRF, to make realism "halal".
It is true that the Chinese need land. It is true that the Chinese urgently need a new mass labor project to take up the slack in export-idled factories, because a major Depression is staring them in the face due to worldwide collapse of consumer demand.

Don't count the Lizaldonomy out. Their specialty is to mass-manufacture things of Western design, at prices a tenth of what they cost in the West. So demand for THEIR goods has not gone down nearly as much as demand for other people's specialties. Wal-Mart is actually rolling in $$$$$, and hiring massively.

But Tibet-Xinjiang poses the solution: they can launch the biggest development project in human history and do the "How the West Was Won" with Chinese efficiency. Like the US in the 1930s, China is self-sufficient. Under the deserts and mountains of the West, they have immense natural resources. Unlike the US, China also has unlimited human resources, and they are well-educated, and trained to the minute in manual labor and in technology, and they respond to organizational discipline.

As far as what India should do - I think India should turn inwards and embark on massive quality improvement, and infrastructure development. Time is very very short. As in 1989 (which was TWENTY YEARS AGO!) the first impression that most Indians get when they see pictures of those "poor, repressed" Chinese out on the streets, is:
Look how well-dressed they are! Look at their modern cities!
This Urumqi, a town in the middle of nowhere, with a small population base, supposedly 50% unemployment, seems to have wide boulevards, tree-lined streets with nice walkways, apartment blocks equal to any coming up in Bengalooru (except that Urumqui has paved roads unlike the paddy fields through which Bengalooru's newest apartment owners must stomp every day), and everyone looks like they have good clothes to wear. They don't look very hungry or malnourished. The gleaming high-rise buildings are not just there because land is short - it is not.

It's a desolate land, but they have high-speed roads and rail lines.

Their riot policemen all have good protective gear, more than they have guns. Are they really so uncaring about their people, more than India is about Indians? Their people (including the Uighurs) don't look ALL that afraid of the police, they seem perfectly OK walking by the armed riot police.. (yes, I read about the raids and the men being dragged away to the torture camps, the executions to come, etc. etc. - are these so different from what India is forced to do in West Bengal, Orissa, Andhra, J&K, Punjab and Jharkand, Mizoram, Tripura, Assam? Did you read about that youth getting tortured and then shot at point-blank range by Police in North India? The differences, when it comes right down to what people experience of the government, are not that large, Vikram. In fact they may not exist at all...).

In 1989 we rationalized that Freedom was worth being dirt-poor for. And not having roads or basic amenities. But 20 years later? What's the excuse?

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby shaardula » 12 Jul 2009 07:29

narayana,
it is precisely because they dont have to wade through paddy fields like people of bengaLoor, keraLa that china could have a potential problem. as you said earlier, culture, language, self respect etc are a pre-occupation of the middle class. it might just be 150 people, and most of them might not be weegar. but they have their their tummies filled just enough to remember and martyrize those who did. the rizald has to work overtime to fill that void and there is only so much cement and concrete can do to fill that void.

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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby enqyoob » 12 Jul 2009 07:49

True, true. But what I am getting at, is that we should perhaps not rush to join the mob attacking the PRC on this Uighur situation. Because
1. The PRC is going to win this
2. The other side does not deserve all that sympathy
3. There is good, solid reason to believe that the riots were not entirely spontaneous
4. The reaction of the PRC, when you look at it calmly, is the only smart way of handling such a situation
5. There is no Indian interest in getting into this, and every reason to stay out.
6. The PRC is not about to collapse economically, socially or politically, just because US consumer demand is down
7. Maybe the PRC is not really treating its citizens nearly as badly as the anti-PRC crowd claims
8. Just maybe .... PRC is treating its citizens better than India is treating its... :oops:

After all the thread is about Understanding the Uighur Movement. Maybe this is as far as I want to go in stating that the Uighur Movement is not very indigenous, and not in the long-tem interest of the people of Xinjiang - Uighur, Hui or Han.
.....


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Re: Understanding the Uighur Movement-1

Postby shaardula » 12 Jul 2009 08:49

VikramS wrote:The key thing to remember here is that the PLA/CCP can not afford to get even a bloody nose, if they start a military adventure, since any failure will weaken their hold on the empire. The CCP tries to play the role of the perfect God; any loss of face can lead to a lot of unintended consequences. As long as India maintains a credible deterrent with the declared will to give the PLA a bloody nose, any Chinese misadventure is likely to cause more harm to the PLA/CCP than the Indian state.


well put sir. they have no valves and yet have to make the perfect kichadi every time. also, to be honest bangalores in various keralas across india have no immediate consequences that we are not conditioned to in this issue. the day will come but it is not today.


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