A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

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karthik
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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 02:20

JE Menon wrote:>>Either way after decade of reading closely i will take such stuff with a pinch of salt.

Do you also take the Pak's allegation with a pinch of salt? If so, then there is no need to discuss this at all is there? Unless you are saying Gen. Kapoor is less credible in your eyes than the Pak guy (where is this Q&A anyways?)...


I atleast take the info coming from our side with a pinch of salt but I dont even consider the paki side capable of any honest debate. I am done with talking with them, their version of peace is to prepare for battle. Some times people on our side mirror them, they are Hindus who converted to fanatic islam,they just pray to a different name but their paranoia borders their enemies word for word.

I understand now that the right wingers in any country insult the left wing liberals, When Bill Maher calls Americans stupid for electing George Bush for a second term the right wing Republicans call him unpatriotic and a commie. This is the same case here.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby RajeshA » 17 Aug 2009 02:57

karthik,

there is no left-wing, liberal yada yada in India, and there is no right-wing yada yada in India. This is all stuff invented in the West for Western audiences.

In India, there are only those who understand Indian national interests and those who don't.

The question remains, which method to take in achieving one's goals. Should one take the 'peace' path or the 'confrontation' path?! That is something people can differ on!! But even that is a non-issue. One takes the 'peace' path as long as there is justified hope that it can work, otherwise one goes a notch higher on 'extremism' ladder, every time one learns, that that the concerned level of consideration for harmony is not effective or sufficient to exact a change.

The next question is how does one determine, whether a level of 'harmony' or 'extremism' is insufficient, whether there is justified hope. For that one provides proof and arguments. But such a discussion is hardly serious enough to sustain a philosophical outlook on the lines of 'liberal', 'fanatical', etc. This is no black and white thing. This ought to be be a rational analysis and determination.

There are many in the 'chauvinist' camp who do irrational things, but all in the self-proclaimed 'liberal' camp are in cuckooland. India is by nature a 'harmony' loving nation, and all Indians as a rule are in favor of 'peaceful' means for solving problems. A 'liberal' lobby in India is as such completely useless and superfluous. But to prove otherwise, the self-proclaimed 'liberals' go to excessive lengths of Paki-appeasement, to lengths beyond rational thought or rational justification.

The self-proclaimed 'liberals' in India do not occupy any moral higher-ground, than the aam-aadmi or for that matter even the aam-BRFite, who really consider violence to be an option of last resort.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby JwalaMukhi » 17 Aug 2009 06:25

karthik wrote:Either way i just cant get my head around why our COAS had to back down from that embarrassing show down. If he was confident then he should have thrown the evidence on his face.


COAS did his job extremely well. There is no need to release any hint of information that will squarely fall under "Official Secrets Act" or classified information, which would be part of the process in procuring evidence. These secrets and other nuances cannot be cast in front of every Barkah Dutt types; so they can provide succor to enemies by providing such information as live coverage of coordinates of the NSG personnel while defending the Nation. For every sundry questionnaire, the COAS should not be immediately opening his data bank and knowledge that is vital in the interests of nation. Well, it is good that the questionnaire is left in limbo and hope the citizen if he/she needs to change the nature of official secrets, be well advised to work within the framework of constitution to get it changed.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 17 Aug 2009 06:53

karthik wrote:Dare i ask this but how are we to be sure that those encounters at the border are true? The recent fake encounter at manipur and the army chiefs deafening silence when an Pakistani embassy man asked him the proof at an press conference all seems to create some doubts and skepticism in my mind.

Hope no one slings mud at me for this but some one needs to ask the though questions.


The the first clod of mud I am going to sling at you is to request you to post this question in the appropriate thread.

A rhetorical reply is to ask the counter question would be how are we, the people whom your question is aimed at, to be sure that you are not a Pakistani intent on maligning the Indian army that i trust and admire.

I claim that I have proof that the Indian army's action is genuine and would like to see proof from you before I offer an answer - if only to make sure that you are not just another common-or-garden troll who is less interested in a real answer and more interested in rabble rousing and trolling.

This is a serious reply and I hope my request for proof from you is not met with either more trolling on the wrong thread or a deafening silence. Please link your reply on here after posting in an appropriate thread.

TIA

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 17 Aug 2009 07:16

karthik wrote:If your wrong, you must know your insulting your own country men and cheating him out of an honest debate! <snip>

This is dumbness beyond repair.


Exactly who is insulting whom? And who is dumb? Could you clarify please.

Who is cheating whom?

I had not seen this reply when I read your question but your question is the classic "You farted" allegation. I presume that you on BR are familiar with the "You farted" game. In case you are not, let me educate you:

The "You farted" game.

The "game" or trick is to get a person on the defensive with an unprovoked accusation. The agenda and tone is set by the accuser and the passive personality goes on the defensive right from the start.

A group of people are sitting together - say 6 or 7 friends in a dorm. Suddenly the foul smell of a fart wafts up.

An accuser personality (call him 'A') picks out a passive personality ('P') and says "Hey P, you farted"

P protests "No I did not"

A: "Yes you did"

P: "Shut up and stop accusing me"

A:"Heh Heh. It's OK. No need to cover your guilt by getting angry. I know you farted. We don't mind - just warn us next time.

What happens in this exchange is that the Accuser 'A' has the initiative all the time. He sets the pace, and he sets the Agenda. He may actually have farted himself, but he gets away giving the impression that "P" is guilty.


In this case, you have intruded on this thread to accuse the Indian army.

Any reply made to your post is a rhetorical victory for you because any reply serves as a successful derailing of the topic of the thread as well as a calling to attention and increasing debate about the primary "You farted" accusation that you made - that is "The India army is guilty of wanton murder". Your topic gets discussed by force because of the exquisite timing and wording you use, backed by a healthy pretence of pompous innocence on your part.

You take the initiative and position yourself in a way by which you are protected from criticism ("Oh I know people are going to sling mud at me") while holding the moral high ground, even as you play victim an claim that YOU are being "cheated" out of an honest debate.

No my dear friend. It does not work that way.

It is you who are trolling. It is still possible to discuss your doubts about the Indian army's murders in an appropriate thread but I put it to you that your intention was never to actually have a debate but to corner people into a rhetorical box by introducing a new topic into an existing discussion and then claiming that YOU are being cheated.

Shush troll. Don't do that. I promise to out-troll you.

If you really have the guts to go beyond "deafening silence" please take your question to the Indian Army thread in the other forum minus the "prophylactic" emotional trash about "knowing that you will be critcized". The minute you say that you are once again setting up rhetorical victory for yourself - because when you are criticised - you can say "See - I told ya!". This is trolling. Not debate.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 12:43

JwalaMukhi wrote:
karthik wrote:Either way i just cant get my head around why our COAS had to back down from that embarrassing show down. If he was confident then he should have thrown the evidence on his face.


COAS did his job extremely well. There is no need to release any hint of information that will squarely fall under "Official Secrets Act" or classified information, which would be part of the process in procuring evidence. These secrets and other nuances cannot be cast in front of every Barkah Dutt types; so they can provide succor to enemies by providing such information as live coverage of coordinates of the NSG personnel while defending the Nation. For every sundry questionnaire, the COAS should not be immediately opening his data bank and knowledge that is vital in the interests of nation. Well, it is good that the questionnaire is left in limbo and hope the citizen if he/she needs to change the nature of official secrets, be well advised to work within the framework of constitution to get it changed.


The thing is he did not do his job well that day, the COAS was in an seminar addressing how the ISI was involved in the attack and the Pakistani military attache placed in the press crowd the ISI agent, asked COAS the proof of ISIs involvement This was not an sundry questioner, this was a pakistani military attache from the embassy. For which the COAS could not give him any proof and backed down and gave him a clean chit, that was embracing.

You turn up in an seminar to show the evidence of ISI involvement and when the ISI asks what evidence then backing down leave anyone wondering whats happening there.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 12:52

shiv wrote:
karthik wrote:Dare i ask this but how are we to be sure that those encounters at the border are true? The recent fake encounter at manipur and the army chiefs deafening silence when an Pakistani embassy man asked him the proof at an press conference all seems to create some doubts and skepticism in my mind.

Hope no one slings mud at me for this but some one needs to ask the though questions.


The the first clod of mud I am going to sling at you is to request you to post this question in the appropriate thread.

A rhetorical reply is to ask the counter question would be how are we, the people whom your question is aimed at, to be sure that you are not a Pakistani intent on maligning the Indian army that i trust and admire.

I claim that I have proof that the Indian army's action is genuine and would like to see proof from you before I offer an answer - if only to make sure that you are not just another common-or-garden troll who is less interested in a real answer and more interested in rabble rousing and trolling.

This is a serious reply and I hope my request for proof from you is not met with either more trolling on the wrong thread or a deafening silence. Please link your reply on here after posting in an appropriate thread.

TIA


I also trust and admire the IA but that does not mean my emotions cloud my logic. There has to be an barrier of cold logic that seprates emotional respoce which would be counter productive.

The guy who asked the question in the Press conference was not a troll he was an Pakistan military attache. Do you even get that?

Calling me a pakistani because i ask a doubt or a question that needs clarification should not make me a troll. Hate is only fear with an attitude. Just to hate me without any obvious reason does not display any intelligence on your part, only your fears or inability to face a problem without resorting to condemnation or insulting.
Last edited by karthik on 17 Aug 2009 13:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 13:17

shiv wrote:Exactly who is insulting whom? And who is dumb? Could you clarify please.

Who is cheating whom?

I had not seen this reply when I read your question but your question is the classic "You farted" allegation. I presume that you on BR are familiar with the "You farted" game. In case you are not, let me educate you:


This was not aimed at you, this for people who called me a Pakistani. Just because i questioned our army does not make me a paki, you might as well insult me with bad words than call me a paki. That has become an predictable attitude.


In this case, you have intruded on this thread to accuse the Indian army.

Any reply made to your post is a rhetorical victory for you because any reply serves as a successful derailing of the topic of the thread as well as a calling to attention and increasing debate about the primary "You farted" accusation that you made - that is "The India army is guilty of wanton murder". Your topic gets discussed by force because of the exquisite timing and wording you use, backed by a healthy pretence of pompous innocence on your part.

You take the initiative and position yourself in a way by which you are protected from criticism ("Oh I know people are going to sling mud at me") while holding the moral high ground, even as you play victim an claim that YOU are being "cheated" out of an honest debate.

No my dear friend. It does not work that way.

It is you who are trolling. It is still possible to discuss your doubts about the Indian army's murders in an appropriate thread but I put it to you that your intention was never to actually have a debate but to corner people into a rhetorical box by introducing a new topic into an existing discussion and then claiming that YOU are being cheated.

Shush troll. Don't do that. I promise to out-troll you.

If you really have the guts to go beyond "deafening silence" please take your question to the Indian Army thread in the other forum minus the "prophylactic" emotional trash about "knowing that you will be critcized". The minute you say that you are once again setting up rhetorical victory for yourself - because when you are criticised - you can say "See - I told ya!". This is trolling. Not debate.



Guts to go beyond silence? This is amusing. Where is the threat and who is threatening me, you? What exactly is your threat? Do you want to meet me in person? I guess your in bangalore, i should have meet you years back but i could not make it. May be next time i would make it and anonymity wont make us talk like little kids on you tube, hurling abuses. I suppose face to face there would be more understanding.

This is all your assumptions of me, anyone who knows me in person would not say that i am interested in cornering anyone, if for instance we are talking over dinner and someone brings up the the recent attacks on LOC and the ISI connection and i want to clarify what happened in the COAS meeting or question the authenticity of some of these encounters am i going to get kicked out of the dinning table? or would people argue sensibly and learn something over that conversation. Why is that not happening online? In an real life discussion we would be more patient to other peoples POV and discuss rather than just accuse him for asking a question.

I dont want to be accused of being a pakstani, you rather abuse me with bad words.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby RajeshA » 17 Aug 2009 13:34

karthik wrote:Do you intend to be insulting anyone who is out of sink with your POV, the guy who asked the question in the Press conference was not a troll he was an Pakistan military attache. To you even get that?


In that Press Conference, the "Pakistani Military Attache" was a troll, and the COAS treated him that way, without dignifying a troll with a response.

Here you are the one acting like a troll, so don't expect others to treat you differently!

karthik wrote:This is all your assumptions of me, anyone who knows me in person would not say that i am interested in cornering anyone, if for instance we are talking over dinner and someone brings up the the recent attacks on LOC and the ISI connection and i want to clarify what happened in the COAS meeting or question the authenticity of some of these encounters am i going to get kicked out of the dinning table?


Not if you are dining with Pakis, then you would get an extra portion gosht!

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby RayC » 17 Aug 2009 13:38

karthik wrote:
This is all your assumptions of me, anyone who knows me in person would not say that i am interested in cornering anyone, if for instance we are talking over dinner and someone brings up the the recent attacks on LOC and the ISI connection and i want to clarify what happened in the COAS meeting or question the authenticity of some of these encounters am i going to get kicked out of the dinning table?


Anyone who knows Deepak Kapoor in person would know he is an introvert and rarely wishes to take on a fight!

It is better to ask his father in law or his wife and they will plaster all!!

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 14:00

RayC wrote:
karthik wrote:
This is all your assumptions of me, anyone who knows me in person would not say that i am interested in cornering anyone, if for instance we are talking over dinner and someone brings up the the recent attacks on LOC and the ISI connection and i want to clarify what happened in the COAS meeting or question the authenticity of some of these encounters am i going to get kicked out of the dinning table?


Anyone who knows Deepak Kapoor in person would know he is an introvert and rarely wishes to take on a fight!

It is better to ask his father in law or his wife and they will plaster all!!


Well, i guess that explains a lot, but its sad that the Paki got away with that, they are putting up that video on youtube, so i was curious to know, if i cant talk and clarify such stuff on BR where else are we supposed to go!

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby Bhima » 17 Aug 2009 14:29

karthik wrote:Well, i guess that explains a lot, but its sad that the Paki got away with that, they are putting up that video on youtube, so i was curious to know, if i cant talk and clarify such stuff on BR where else are we supposed to go!

Take your queries, concerns and fabulously absurd allegations to the Indian Army Thread. It's over here.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby tripathi » 17 Aug 2009 15:18

karthik wrote:Dare i ask this but how are we to be sure that those encounters at the border are true? The recent fake encounter at manipur and the army chiefs deafening silence when an Pakistani embassy man asked him the proof at an press conference all seems to create some doubts and skepticism in my mind.

Hope no one slings mud at me for this but some one needs to ask the though questions.

those were the innocent kashmiri mujahdeen sitting atop kargil heights having picnic there in kargil spring when all from pakistan from its president to pm to ambasador to army chief all were shouthing that they were not their men.

//sarc off

man u must ask proof from pak embassy staff not the indian army.every week indian armymen r dying at loc and u r asking for proof sitting on ur butt in chennai.even 26/11 was a fake encounter.those who save ur butt daily u r asking from them just coz a 2 bit paki asked for it when they themselves send terrorists in india.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 17 Aug 2009 16:17

karthik wrote:
This is all your assumptions of me, anyone who knows me in person would not say that i am interested in cornering anyone,
king a question.
<snip>
I dont want to be accused of being a pakstani, you rather abuse me with bad words.


You are cornering the discussion on this thread with your off topic accusation (about the Indian army) and by playing victim. Please take your question about the Indian army to an appropriate thread. You have the opportunity to have a fair debate on your accusation and I repeat that it is not your intention to actually debate the topic. You can prove me wrong on that count.

Drop the subject on here please because it remains trolling. I cannot use "good words" for what your are doing although it is likely that you do not realize just how offensive your posting style appears and how pathetic your whining after that is pointed out.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 20:44

Its surprising i troll only when i ask skeptical questions but i am not a troll in other threads or when i post comments that condemn Pakistan. That sort of narrow view enforced by threats and caning by the head master is not likely to keep me from asking things that you dont like. Its better all of you know that, I am not likely to ever change my skepticism,you people can get used to it. May be in the next BR meet i could explain myself.

For those paranoids who accuse me of being a pakistani, here is my facebook ID. Add me there as proof. Its funny i am the only one that shows my Location as Chennai while all the brave supposed Indians dont even care to keep their real name let alone their location.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=ho ... ef=profile

End of my comments.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 17 Aug 2009 20:53

karthik wrote:Its surprising i troll only when i ask skeptical questions



1) You knew well that your "skeptical question" would cause offence. You said so yourself
2) You then proceeded to derail the thread.

How come you are "surprised" now?

I am surprised that you do not want a fair discussion of your "skeptical question" in the Indian Army thread despite repeated requests for you to take the discussion there.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby harbans » 17 Aug 2009 20:56

Karik chill dude.. :D
Folks just asked you to take this up in the IA thread. I too don't agree with calling just anyone a Paki or a troll. But do take it up in the right thread..and Why the **** are you sitting on a rail track lookin so depressed? :eek:

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 21:08

shiv wrote:

1) You knew well that your "skeptical question" would cause offence. You said so yourself


Ans. I dont care if it offends you, get it? Its not about you and your sentiments it about whats happening out there, when you plan a strategy in war the first thing is that you leave behind is emotions, becoz emotions have an way of screwing up judgment. If you cant even get that basic stuff,i regret i asked that question.

2) You then proceeded to derail the thread.


Ans. My question was in sync with your post of infiltration. Its your emotions again that has brought this thread so far.

How come you are "surprised" now?

I am surprised that you do not want a fair discussion of your "skeptical question" in the Indian Army thread despite repeated requests for you to take the discussion there.


I am not surprised, i myself have accused a lot of people of being pakistani because they had different views. Now i know better, atleast i see both sides of the coin, now.
Last edited by karthik on 17 Aug 2009 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby tripathi » 17 Aug 2009 21:10

karthik wrote:Its surprising i troll only when i ask skeptical questions but i am not a troll in other threads or when i post comments that condemn Pakistan. That sort of narrow view enforced by threats and caning by the head master is not likely to keep me from asking things that you dont like. Its better all of you know that, I am not likely to ever change my skepticism,you people can get used to it. May be in the next BR meet i could explain myself.

For those paranoids who accuse me of being a pakistani, here is my facebook ID. Add me there as proof. Its funny i am the only one that shows my Location as Chennai while all the brave supposed Indians dont even care to keep their real name let alone their location.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=ho ... ef=profile

End of my comments.
Id can be lifted too :wink:

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 17 Aug 2009 21:20

karthik wrote:
shiv wrote:

1) You knew well that your "skeptical question" would cause offence. You said so yourself


Ans. I dont care if it offends you, get it?


This is why you are a troll. Why the deafening silence on the Indian Army thread? You don't really want to discuss your "skeptical questions" do you? Maybe you are finding out the truth that you shot your mouth off before checking your facts.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 21:40

shiv wrote:
This is why you are a troll.


When you throw out logic over emotion what do you have to discuss? emotional soap operas? So look in the mirror.

My point stands, If India is 90% correct, Pakistan is 90% of the time wrong, that 10% is fodder for our enemies to use and stir up the problem be it in Kashmire or Manipur. So I am interested to see that in a rational way and not cover it up because some people dont have an handle on their emotions and attachments.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby harbans » 17 Aug 2009 21:54

My point stands, If India is 90% correct, Pakistan is 90% of the time wrong, that 10% is fodder for our enemies to use and stir up the problem be it in Kashmire or Manipur. So I am interested to see that in a rational way and not cover it up because some people dont have an handle on their emotions and attachments.

And that is very correct to quite an extent (won't put a sure figure 90 or more), but yes it is that 'exception to the rule' that our neighbor exploits to the fullest advantage. However if you'd stated that in an earlier post and in the correct hread, i am certain the responses would be much different. So lets forget this now, and i support Shivjs effort in keeping this thread alive and relevent.

Karthik, try and start a thread on these lines: Are our neighbours exploiting the exception to the rule and should we be more proactive eliminating those exceptions/ what are we doing about it/ is or PR adequate/ what improvements we have to make..or something more concise as a headline to that effect. And see when someone deviates from the crux and talks about something else how it feels. Try it, am sure one person here who can create really relishing relevent threads here is Shivji..

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby RajeshA » 17 Aug 2009 22:01

karthik wrote:My point stands, If India is 90% correct, Pakistan is 90% of the time wrong, that 10% is fodder for our enemies to use and stir up the problem be it in Kashmir or Manipur. So I am interested to see that in a rational way and not cover it up because some people don't have a handle on their emotions and attachments.


Karthik,
what you don't understand is that there is no rational way to discuss Pakistan's problems with them.

Now you have seen the propaganda going on in the Pakistani Media, that Baitullah Mehsud is an Indian agent. There is zero proof of this, but when have Pakistanis ever been discouraged from fabricating lies if it suits their ends.

The problem is you want to go on the defensive and let others (the Pakistanis) set the terms of the discussion with their accusations. Your arguments don't count, if it doesn't support that what Pakistanis want to hear.

At the least you are being naive, and at the most you're a Pakistani yourself, reading what you have written.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby karthik » 17 Aug 2009 22:39

harbans wrote:My point stands, If India is 90% correct, Pakistan is 90% of the time wrong, that 10% is fodder for our enemies to use and stir up the problem be it in Kashmire or Manipur. So I am interested to see that in a rational way and not cover it up because some people dont have an handle on their emotions and attachments.

And that is very correct to quite an extent (won't put a sure figure 90 or more), but yes it is that 'exception to the rule' that our neighbor exploits to the fullest advantage. However if you'd stated that in an earlier post and in the correct hread, i am certain the responses would be much different. So lets forget this now, and i support Shivjs effort in keeping this thread alive and relevent.

Karthik, try and start a thread on these lines: Are our neighbours exploiting the exception to the rule and should we be more proactive eliminating those exceptions/ what are we doing about it/ is or PR adequate/ what improvements we have to make..or something more concise as a headline to that effect. And see when someone deviates from the crux and talks about something else how it feels. Try it, am sure one person here who can create really relishing relevent threads here is Shivji..



The problem with in our armies attitude has hurt us more than any of the enemies bullets or bombs, "lately".

There is no way Pakistan can defeat us in combat but that said we should not be oblivious to the gun powder next to our cigarette. Thats all i am saying, its so hard to contain the emotions of Indians before making them see the point. We are not perfect and never will be, so lets not pretend that our army is 100% perfect, the enemy has already changed the strategy to blaming us for our faults, his new weapon is blame, its no more about how many tanks or terrorist they have crossing the border, its all about how many irresponsible soldiers we have on our side, helping them pour fuel to the fire burning on our side.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby vera_k » 17 Aug 2009 22:57

kartik wrote:We are not perfect and never will be, so lets not pretend that our army is 100% perfect, the enemy has already changed the strategy to blaming us for our faults, his new weapon is blame, its no more about how many tanks or terrorist they have crossing the border, its all about how many irresponsible soldiers we have on our side, helping them pour fuel to the fire burning on our side.


Again, this is not a new weapon. I very well remember the Pakistani protests about human rights violations in Kashmir from the 90s ably backed by the Western press and human rights industry. All this is par for the course. We have to understand that some such incidents where the blame is with us are unavoidable when dealing with a war-like situation. However that should not blind us to the justness of our cause.

The one thing I'd fault our side for is in not playing the propaganda game. I mean, what is the need for Gen. Kapoor to address the press unless it is from his forward HQ in Karachi? What is the Information&B ministry doing and where is our propaganda division that employs the best social scientists we can produce?

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby RayC » 17 Aug 2009 22:58

I am not too sure of irresponsible soldiers, but there sure are irresponsible people around here, who have no clue of the reality and instead pretend to be sãbjantas (know alls)!!

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby SwamyG » 18 Aug 2009 00:03

S Karthik: For you own good, I say this. Create a new thread or ask your questions in the relevant thread. Else you will get banned. It might not matter to you if you are banned or not. But your points will not be heard. You have registered in 2000, and you know how things are here. Just like you say about Pakistan exploiting 10% of Indian weaknesses, your insistence to discuss the points in this very own thread can be used against you. All the gurujan are asking is raise the points in the appropriate thread. Good luck.
Last edited by SwamyG on 18 Aug 2009 07:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby SwamyG » 18 Aug 2009 00:10

harbans wrote:Karik chill dude.. :D
Folks just asked you to take this up in the IA thread. I too don't agree with calling just anyone a Paki or a troll. But do take it up in the right thread..and Why the **** are you sitting on a rail track lookin so depressed? :eek:

I suspect he could have served in the armed forces.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby JwalaMukhi » 18 Aug 2009 03:30

^^ The standards of credibility required of others is not maintained in the unnecessary link given to facebook. Well, the credibility of the link can stand onlee if the conversations that occured here, gets uploaded as is on the facebook account. Even then, one could easily create fake accounts. Only redemption factor in such a excercise, is the poor guy's facebook link is not being maliciously linked. This is to just ensure that the owner of the facebook account is not jeopardized. Mechanism without cross verification are best scribbled in one's own personal diary and not flaunted as proof of verification on a public forum.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2009 03:47

let him be. His message is getting lost int eh way he is presenting his message- India needs to nail the ISI/paki liars where ever they can.
We can argue about his style etc but cant disagree with the core message. The only disagreement is that Gen. Kapoor is not the right person for this.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby JwalaMukhi » 18 Aug 2009 05:01

karthik writes in Reference list thread:
Heart wrenching pics man..! Everyday even if i dont get worried about my own business, i invariably cant seem to stop worrying about India and her social fabric being torn apart! Tragic indeed. If i was a Pakistani i would have taken a AK-47 strapped on bullet proof west and said AOA and wrecked havoc in some indian city.! To bad i am an Hindu who believes in Advita!


Ramanaji, agree with you there is definitely problem with the style. But am not sure about the intent behind the postings. For example, the above post done in other thread, needs to be parsed. Is it sarcasm? Not sure what was the need to make commentary in a reference list thread, when BENIS thread is widely available?

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby Rahul M » 18 Aug 2009 18:38

if a person was serious enough about the issue he/she would have first done some basic reading before jumping to conclusions and hurling allegations at the army.

the alleged encounter killing in manipur is by the manipur police commandos, how is the IA responsible for that ?

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby harbans » 18 Aug 2009 20:08

Well, the credibility of the link can stand onlee if the conversations that occured here, gets uploaded as is on the facebook account.

I realized it. And as Ramana ji said, let it be. There is a problem in phrasing, but the core is that we do tend to neglect that little 5%. PR part. ISRO does a fab job, and messes up on the PR. Our exceptions get expolited as a rule and popularized as such. We'll get better on that front too pretty soon. Presently its so easy to pay anyone 5000 Rs and say to pretend marrying a dog or snake. And when that happens get a photograper and sell the story in the West Yes also i realize that the facebook link can be easily proved genuine or otherwise. ..Just ask him to change to post a pic decided here instead of the one sitting melancholically waiting for the train.. :mrgreen:

Anways back to the topic, how do we convince others that a split Pakistan is best for them too! Makes thing easier for us if they are on baord too.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby archan » 18 Aug 2009 22:00

Folks, stop accusing people of being pakis.
I was called a paki on my first day of this forum and it has left a deep scar on my psyche and I have lost all self confidence... I cannot even look into the mirror without hearing the word "paki" reverberate in the atmosphere.. :cry:
Seriously, enough with the accusations. Karthik, what RajeshA did is not an offense that gets a warning according to our rule book, but I could have permanently banned you right away for that colorful response of yours. I am only giving out a warning. Learn to manage your temper or soon you will not be posting here anymore.
EDIT: oops, looks like another predator hit your cave. :oops: Goodbye and have fun!

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby Rahul M » 18 Aug 2009 22:04

thread cleaned up.

karthik, I'm being extremely lenient and not serving a permanent ban this time.
cool down and come back in a month's time if you want to.

as for the confusion regarding your identity, I don't doubt that you're an Indian. most of my fellow members are having a hard time digesting the fact because they associate Indians with a minimum level of intelligence and understanding of Indian affairs. I'm however under no such illusions, hence ready to believe your country of origin.
Rahul.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby RajeshA » 19 Aug 2009 02:47

karthik,

if you're Indian, I am sorry for having caused you any hurt! My apologies!

You must however know, that this hurt is nothing compared to the hurt to the families of all those jawans of India's security forces who have fallen to terrorist infiltrators from Pakistan, a fact you seem to be 'suspicious of'.

Over and Out!

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby Rishirishi » 19 Aug 2009 04:39

Have to disagree with the heading of this thread. If TSP ever became a stable and prosperous country it would definately be a good thing. Because any stable and prosperous countrly would want to maintain a peace. Just look at Turkey and Greece. They hate each other, but have learned to live with each other. Their prosperity works as a wested interest.

But the wast people are not going to get educated, prosperous overnight. And as we know, any prosperity in TSP will be snached by the TSP army and used against India. Sad to say it, Indias best bet is to work against the TSP economy.

Karthik:
I honestly hope that there are liquidation squads in IA, IB and RAW that "take care" of people who are woking against Indian Interests. Be it on the border, inside TSP, India or any other country. If anything, I wish such groups were more active.
Have you ever heard of Human rights in TSP? Was the Mumbai attack in accordance to Human rights? Do you think SIMI would care a damn about human rights? Have you ever heard of Deoband complaining about human rights for non muslims in Saudi Arabia?
Human rights should be reserved for those who behave like HUMANS.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 19 Aug 2009 07:22

Rishirishi wrote: If TSP ever became a stable and prosperous country.



Maybe you need to approach this from another direction.

What would it take for Pakistan to become a stable and prosperous country?

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby shiv » 19 Aug 2009 07:39

Rahul M wrote:if a person was serious enough about the issue he/she would have first done some basic reading before jumping to conclusions and hurling allegations at the army.

the alleged encounter killing in manipur is by the manipur police commandos, how is the IA responsible for that ?


Well I am glad to note that there is at least one person who knows the difference between one gun toting man and another. If a person cannot differentiate between the chain of command, leadership, discipline and ethos of a police unit and the army, I wonder if that person would be able to differentiate between an Indian army Jawan and an LeT operative.

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Re: A stable, prosperous Pakistan is NOT in India's interest

Postby Rishirishi » 20 Aug 2009 02:17

shiv wrote:
Rishirishi wrote: If TSP ever became a stable and prosperous country.



Maybe you need to approach this from another direction.

What would it take for Pakistan to become a stable and prosperous country?


TSP or any other Middle east inspired Islamic nation will never become stability because of the cultural/religious bias against accepting others right to think differently. Accepting the rule of majority as well as focus on wealth creation, rather then wasting the lifte to enter jannath.

Without the oil, middle east would be on the same level as Sudan or Rawanda.


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