Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 29 Aug 2009 19:03

Is it facing north or south?

suneels · Post by **suneels** » 29 Aug 2009 19:15

narayanan wrote:Is it facing north or south?

It's facing North-East, perfect view for any cheenee sat..

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 29 Aug 2009 21:46

RajeshA wrote:I am beginning to think, that a little border with China may not be a bad thing.

We need to get out of the slumber. It may just shake us out of it. The other countries also need to know that China is a global menace, and there is going to be no such thing as a peaceful rise.

USA may at first simply giggle at the siege on India, but I am sure there will be generals in USA who would be able to impress on Obama, that America should not pamper China. China is a dangerous adversary, and it ought to be treated like that, by containing it, building alliances, and taking a military build-up seriously.

All of trade with China deals with India selling raw materials and buying finished products. Is that trade? We are having $24 billion trade deficit per year. Is that trade? This trade needs to end here and now.

China is an enemy and the sooner the Indian public is reminded of it, the better.

A little border war is not bad. Better for India to choose, where it takes place.

Better make india the joint colony of pakistan and china.I think there is nothing wrong in it afterall india was british colony for 150yrs.and in 150 yrs british contributed to indian progress a lot according to our very own people.Atleat china will give it great language to india and its manufacturing ideas as british contributed by teaching us indians english and gave railway.meanwhile pakistan can teach us how to suck upto its masters and even double cross them.when people in india themselves were put china above indian interest when its own govt lies to people like 1962 then better let be another jewel in crown.let this time be china's crown.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Aug 2009 21:53

tripathi ji,

I was looking for an alarm-clock, and you are telling me, that a few explosives fixed to the ceiling is just as effective, when the ceiling comes down on me. I'll rather take the alarm-clock, thank you!

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 30 Aug 2009 00:49

suneels wrote:Sir,
While checking this area on Google Earth, came across this wonderful sight at the same area being discussed - coordinates 27° 22' 27.49" N 88° 48' 57.09" E.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4865515

Jai Hind.

I have seen something similar on my trip to nathu la paas. It was surely on indian territory. I tried to take a pic of this but was very brusquely shooed away by a sipahi ji.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 30 Aug 2009 02:16

So this faces Mt. Gopalankutty, which is about 60 miles to the northeast.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 30 Aug 2009 03:45

tripathi wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I am beginning to think, that a little border with China may not be a bad thing.

We need to get out of the slumber. It may just shake us out of it. The other countries also need to know that China is a global menace, and there is going to be no such thing as a peaceful rise.

USA may at first simply giggle at the siege on India, but I am sure there will be generals in USA who would be able to impress on Obama, that America should not pamper China. China is a dangerous adversary, and it ought to be treated like that, by containing it, building alliances, and taking a military build-up seriously.

All of trade with China deals with India selling raw materials and buying finished products. Is that trade? We are having $24 billion trade deficit per year. Is that trade? This trade needs to end here and now.

China is an enemy and the sooner the Indian public is reminded of it, the better.

A little border war is not bad. Better for India to choose, where it takes place.
Better make india the joint colony of pakistan and china.I think there is nothing wrong in it afterall india was british colony for 150yrs.and in 150 yrs british contributed to indian progress a lot according to our very own people.Atleat china will give it great language to india and its manufacturing ideas as british contributed by teaching us indians english and gave railway.meanwhile pakistan can teach us how to suck upto its masters and even double cross them.when people in india themselves were put china above indian interest when its own govt lies to people like 1962 then better let be another jewel in crown.let this time be china's crown.

Mao hu Akbal!!
Rawalpindi or Lahore sir?
should we not come under Mughal Rule again sir? Before the pritish didnt Aurangzeb the grait unite Inida and sve us from Brahminiccal tyranny?

ravig · Post by **ravig** » 30 Aug 2009 07:35

kumarn wrote:
suneels wrote:Sir,
While checking this area on Google Earth, came across this wonderful sight at the same area being discussed - coordinates 27° 22' 27.49" N 88° 48' 57.09" E.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4865515

Jai Hind.
I have seen something similar on my trip to nathu la paas. It was surely on indian territory. I tried to take a pic of this but was very brusquely shooed away by a sipahi ji.

This pair of quotes is actually inscribed on two mountains..pics in links...
Photos

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Aug 2009 11:12

Warmongers in China and India miss the mark

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Sep 2009 12:46

Relations between India and China are being jolted by atmospheric turbulence. Some recent writings reminding India of the folly of confronting China, and warning that no concession will be made on the border issue as a recompense for not joining anti-China groupings, have increased Indian misgivings about China’s intentions. Worse, an article on a Chinese strategic issues website, timed to appear during the August visit to India of the Chinese special representative, Dai Bingguo, mentioned that India’s national unity being weak, China could support separatist forces and split the Indian federation into 20 or 30 sovereign states. “There cannot be two suns in the sky,” said the article, strengthening suspicions that China will do everything possible to thwart India’s rise as a rival power......

n a country like China with a controlled press, the political connotation of such articles is difficult to ignore. Such writings have appeared in the Chinese media after many years, and at a time when China’s position on boundary differences has hardened, provoking speculation that China may well stage some border incident to deflect attention away from mounting internal economic and social problems caused by the global economic downturn. China’s leaders like Ziang Zemin had a certain degree of contempt for the Indian military’s fibre. A few suitably intimidatory articles, it might still be thought, would send a salutary message to India’s cautious political leadership.

An unequal strategic equation is at the root of India-China problems. For India, China is the principal strategic adversary; for China it is the United States of America. China is principally preoccupied with the situation in the Taiwan Straits, while India’s preoccupation, apart from Pakistan, is with its border with China. China already has deterrent capabilities against India, while India is still developing them. China has a much greater capacity to intervene in India’s neighbourhood, and can impose punishing costs on India by supporting internal insurgencies, especially in the Northeast. China has expanded its military infrastructure in Tibet, while India has neglected it on its own side. India has irrevocably recognized China’s sovereignty over Tibet, that China exploits to make further territorial demands on ‘southern Tibet’ (Arunachal Pradesh).

China’s posture on the boundary issue is explained by this imbalance. The 1993 and 1996 border agreements on peace and tranquillity and confidence-building measures suited India as the weaker side at a time when the Jammu and Kashmir situation had deteriorated seriously, and the stronger Chinese side as well, as it signified India’s political acceptance of the ground realities. The subsequent attempt to demarcate the LAC failed because China reneged on the understanding reached with India, and abandoned the process in 2002 without explanation, after exchanging maps of the respective versions of the LAC in the central sector.

THE AUTHOR IS FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY OF INDIA SIBALKANWAL@GMAIL.COM

More at:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090901/j ... 434603.jsp DIFFIDENT DIPLOMACY
- China continues to outmanoeuvre India

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 01 Sep 2009 13:51

All said and done India and China are neighbors and have to live together for eternity so the long term view always has to be that of peace with them , unlike the Pukes they are a much more pragmatic people and India cannot afford to engage in a cold war which lasts decades and drains us of meaningful resources.

If China were to become aggressive and use it's military then we have no option but whats in our control is to deter them and engage in further CBM's . Trade is just one facet of this relationship and if it gives a comparative advantage to China then so be it because in the long run a $100 billion comparative advantage will be too much of a deterrence and risk for China.

Power projection in the right places is the other strategy which GoI has followed rather well , if our media goes ballistic over Chinese intrusions then that's good and it lets them know that we're well aware and prepared.

the joint exercise of commandos was a very positive move and the Chinese destroyer making a port call was significant too , military diplomacy has a very key role to play and the quicker we move to joint air and naval exercises the better , if Chinese insist on joint ops. in IOR then what stops us from requesting the same in South China sea.

"Cultural Invasion" as the pukes like the call it is another facet , although closer to cultural exchange , it was good to us taking the bollywood bandwagon to Macau and similar moves should be encouraged from the Chinese.

Unlike us and the pukes , there is enough space for China and India to rise and exist peacefully if and only if we make the right moves at the right time , not to mention that friendly relation with China basically makes TSP handicapped.

P.S. - very sorry for taking this topic far away from tibet and complete derailing the thread but I thought this was the most appropriate thread to put my thoughts

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2009 02:04

I guess its not over Tibet but "southern Tibet"

from Nightwatch, 31 August 2009

India-China: China violated Indian airspace 21 June when two helicopters dropped canned food in a barren region at Chumar, northeast of Leh, along the border, Indian Express reported 31 August, citing an Indian Army spokesperson. "It has happened. This is confirmed. But there is nothing alarming in it," said Col. Kachari of the army's Northern Command.

Perhaps more alarming is a development at the eastern end of the Himalayas. On 19 August a weekly Chinese publication devoted to international affairs stated Chinese claims to “southern Tibet”, which is now part of Indian national territory. The journal article rejected Indian claims that the McMahon Line is now demarcated, instead of the disputed boundary trace between China and India, among other assertions.

For reasons that are not yet clear, the Chinese appear to be putting pressure on India along the two disputed regions of the Himalayas – in the Aksai Chin area in far northeastern Kashmir and north of Assam in eastern India. Chinese pressure in these disputed regions is always a reminder to India to not press Pakistan too hard on security issues. Pakistan is China’s primary proxy in South Asia.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 04 Sep 2009 03:54

For reasons that are not yet clear, the Chinese appear to be putting pressure on India along the two disputed regions of the Himalayas – in the Aksai Chin area in far northeastern Kashmir and north of Assam in eastern India.

[/quote]

There could be 2 reasons for that:
(a) The Chinese have found that Dalai Lama has at most 5 years to live and next Dalai lama would come from Tawang and is therefore an indian citizen.
(b) The decision has been made to divert Tsangpo-Brahmaputra waters and this needs a minor local battle victory(like 1962) so India does not raise this issue.

In a short war, China could succeed in getting what it wants i.e. Tawang. However, in a long war, China may lose Tibet as it's supply lines would become like German supply lines at Stalingrad.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 04 Sep 2009 05:31

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Could this be the flash point again...?? Also, check out the slide show!

TAWANG, India — This is perhaps the most militarized Buddhist enclave in the world.

A Contested Frontier in the Clouds
Perched above 10,000 feet in the icy reaches of the eastern Himalayas, the town of Tawang is not only home to one of Tibetan Buddhism’s most sacred monasteries, but also the site of a massive Indian military buildup. Convoys of army trucks haul howitzers along rutted mountain roads. Soldiers drill in muddy fields. Military bases appear every half-mile in the countryside, with watchtowers rising behind concertina wire.

A road sign on the northern edge of town helps explain the reason for all the fear and the fury: The border with China is just 23 miles away; Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, 316 miles; and Beijing 2,676 miles.

“The Chinese army has a big deployment at the border, at Bumla,” said Madan Singh, a junior commissioned officer who sat with a half-dozen soldiers one afternoon sipping tea beside a fog-cloaked road. “That’s why we’re here.”

Though little known to the outside world, Tawang is a flash point in relations between the world’s two most populous nations. It is the focus of China’s most delicate land-border dispute, a conflict rooted in Chinese claims of sovereignty over all of historical Tibet.
In recent months, both countries have stepped up efforts to secure their rights over this rugged patch of land. China tried to block a $2.9-billion loan to India from the Asian Development Bank on the grounds that part of the loan was slated for water projects in Arunachal Pradesh, the state that includes Tawang. It was the first time China had sought to influence the territorial dispute through a multilateral institution. Then an Indian general announced that the Indian military was deploying extra troops and fighter jets in the area.

The growing belligerence has soured relations between the two Asian giants and has prompted one Indian military leader to declare that China has replaced Pakistan as India’s biggest threat.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Sep 2009 06:31

equal-equal again

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 04 Sep 2009 13:47

self deleted. already posted

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 04 Sep 2009 14:01

This sounds like immediate war preparations.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 04 Sep 2009 14:11

US has plenty of interests in India and China knows that.It is wary most of the time, and is being troubled enough from within(uighurs,buddists), to pressurise it to attack neighbouring countries. The chances of China taking the leap is limited to minor skirmishes, I doubt they will try to go all out and send their Navy this way.The other scenario is "IF CHINA STRIKES" and we got to prepare for that eventuality with care.

suneels · Post by **suneels** » 06 Sep 2009 19:44

narayanan wrote:This sounds like immediate war preparations.

This is getting serious
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 978371.cms

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Sep 2009 20:38

This to my mind is to create some crisis so that the Uighur problem goes into the background and the Chinese are 'united' to face a common enemy!

I do hope we have 'friends' amongst the Uighurs and have cultivated them. I have an uncomfortable feeling that we haven't!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Sep 2009 20:43

China intrudes again, we do it too, says India

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 07 Sep 2009 22:32

RayC wrote:This to my mind is to create some crisis so that the Uighur problem goes into the background and the Chinese are 'united' to face a common enemy!

I do hope we have 'friends' amongst the Uighurs and have cultivated them. I have an uncomfortable feeling that we haven't!

We should cultivate friends among Uighers and also ask them to extend their brotherhood to oppressed Tibet

Siddhartha · Post by **Siddhartha** » 07 Sep 2009 22:34

RayC wrote:This to my mind is to create some crisis so that the Uighur problem goes into the background and the Chinese are 'united' to face a common enemy!

I do hope we have 'friends' amongst the Uighurs and have cultivated them. I have an uncomfortable feeling that we haven't!

Yes...neither we have frnds in Baloch nor in Uighur..We have frnds in Tibet but we dont recognize them...God help us...

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 07 Sep 2009 22:47

Chinese troops entered nearly 1.5 kilometres into Indian territory in the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir on July 31. Intruding Chinese soldiers painted boulders and rocks with red spray paint, writing the word ‘China’ in Cantonese, official sources said on Sunday.

Shiv, did u manage to post the photos of your vacation at Mt. Gopalankutty? I checked Google the other day, and find that everything west of the Rajasthan border has inscriptions in Urdu. But inside India it in Angreji onlee. This needs to change. How to get the proper Malloo and Sanskrit inscriptions onto the mountains of lakes of North Sikkim etc? What can Han Commies appreciate of the beauty and legends of Manasarowar?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Sep 2009 05:35

X Posting Mr. Muppalla from the Yindoo Nook Thread:

Muppalla wrote: This is a serious statement by an Army chief. Something is really bothering the armed forces and MI and their goals and thoughts are not same as GOI. I suspect a confrontation of thoughts is happening between Political+Babu and MI+Armed Forces+Nuke Scientists.

The messages are blurred but not that blurred for a keen eye.

I agree that the above statement is a very important one and potentially has some serious implications.

I also think that the above statement is exclusively aimed at you know who

bcoz when the no first use policy came around it was primarily aimed at our friend on the western border with whom we enjoy greater geographical depth, a massive qualitative and quantitative advantage, and in general have a lot better cards on the table as compared to them.

But then when the Dragon comes into the picture as it has been in the past few years where proactive encroachment of ze border has been time and again displayed the no first use policy becomes well questionable IMVHO to say the least.

Firstly we may hold a qualitative advantage but quantitative advantage becomes a slightly more complex problem. Also Geographical Depth becomes another one where they enjoy similar or more depth than us. The threat perception of the Dragon is far ummm higher than Porkistan in which case I think we now need to think that if ya'll push us we push ze "red" button.

I do think that as the "situation" develops/detoriates on our eastern borders the no first use policy will in time become redundant.

One thing that will hold great importance in shaping or changing the first use polciy is as ze Ncubus Maximus pointed out MAD doesnt hold true in our situation as compared to the USSR, the Dragon has sensitive nerve centres which once struck push the country back in the coal ages...

Bear with me on this but I think in a way we have to think like the Porkis when they think of us as an aggressor. If the no first use policy is indeed changed then it will IMHO prove to be another important point that the Dragon will have to think about when creating any sort of mischief.....

Disclaimer: Ze above post has been done after crunching number for 3 hours, having two coffees and reading the Nook and Kaveri Injun thread.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 08 Sep 2009 06:52

I do not think we can think of answering such questions yet. Unless there is a preparedness to confront for a war there need not be a talk about the war. For me Indian government particularly congress sufferred a lot due to Communists support last time. This time the congress is not bothered about anything including a strategical checkmate for Chinese and so the Chinese have started using their regular fear creating tactics on India. China is already at proxy war with India by putting pressure. Congress government does exactly what China wants to do thinking that Chinese influence will not be there but it is utterly follish on COngress government part to take up such policy. For example in the case of Myanmar Congress went on supporting the present military regime while Chinese make their influence straight away inestablishing frontier army posts in Myanmar against India. In spite of India's support Myanmar seems to favour Chinese that also enables them to maintain their status quo of oppressing and destroying their own people. In Srilanka the same case alongside Chinese supply India also did support but then Srilankan government did not listen and do not want to listen to Indian govenrment in anyways. Now Pakistan government got interest in reinventing terror games with India because of their support from China again.

There is already a proxy war by China against India. They have made their influences around and checkpoints already. International influences do favour Chinese. Even if China takes over Arunachal Pradesh, there will be a few sympathisers.
Manmohansingh and company do not have a courage to stand up to China to push them backwards nor have they developed a defence mechanism to defend our country. Politically Communists would not mind those things. But it is the lack of will on the one hand and no one is really bothered about defending India or strategically placing India for long term goals in South Asia within Congress government. So once again our army folks are put down by our govt both in incursions and by not updating our armed forces with sophistication.

My suggestions are:
Indian government needs to set up a strong group of intellectuals and experienced people to develop a long term strategy in relation to China and our neighbouring countries. First we need to become to some extent powerful in arms. At present we are not. We also need to make sure that proxy war is countered by another proxy war. Democracy is what Chinese government is afraid of. The clearly strategical relationship with Japan and any other countries arond China will also be good.

Myanmar needs to be democratised. Chinese think that both in Pakistan and in Myanmar they get good support only if the military government rules. AS the democratic government is seen as weak in their eyes they would even not mind in bringing down the democratic govts. Engagement in Tibet needs to be done in a way Tibetians fight for their own freedom. There should not be supply of arms to Tibetians rather Tibetians should be properly motivate for freedom and let them fight Chinese with their powerless protests and let the world know. This is what the Chinese are afraid of. China needs more democratic thinkers too. As Chinese dumped all marxian books and material into India to spread this ideology we should also spred the ideology of democracy.

Once this is done China will never think about incursions.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Sep 2009 07:35

http://publication.samachar.com/pub_art ... id=5446859

If China needs one more proof of its violation of line of control with India, Ladakh's Shepherds have alleged Chinese soldiers of entering into the Indian boundaries and threatening them.

Deputy commisioner of Leh has divulged this in his letter to India's Foreign Minister S M Krishna, asking for some action against such invasion. In his letter he informs that Shepherds of Ladakh have complained that Chinese troops entered into the Indian boundaries as far as their settlements and threatened them effecting their daily lives and work.

The Chinese soldiers asked Indians to get out from Ladakh warning them of dire consequences.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 23 Dec 2009 09:32

Arms sale to Pak justified as India buys from US: Chinese official
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 366909.cms

My comments: Chinese have openly with this issue. It shows the Chinese logic very clear. If US and RUssians supply arms to India and so China wll supply arms to India to keep the balance. Then who will keep China in Balance? Or what right China has to keep things in balance?

Then the Chinese logic can go beyond. to keep Asia in balance, US and others can supply arms to Taiwan and make them to select presidents in favour of independence. Also supply arms to Japan to keep China in balance. Supply India to keep China in balance?

or even for this? India is justified to supply arms to Tibetians to keep China in balance as China has done for many year with humanitarian heart supply arms to Naxals and also to North eastern folks unofficially.

India has to use the same logic for many things. I think unless Tibet become buffer zone with some autonomy or independent without chinese army in there the peace in Asia will not be achieved nor the competition for arms race will stop. It is China who is responsible for the arms race in Asia and also tensions in South Asia by inducing the Pakis. It is China who is threatening all the surounding countries to occupy inch by inch and thus trying to take over making space on earth through power as it has used on her own people the same power to eliminate any insurgence within.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Dec 2009 13:35

From Delingha the DF-21 is in range of northern India (including New Delhi) and three Russian ICBM fields and a bomber base.

The Defense Intelligence Agency estimated in 1996 that the DF-21 was expected to complement and possibly take over the strategic targeting role of the DF-3 by 2000. But introduction was slow. Whether this is now happening, and whether the DF-21 is also replacing DF-4s in some roles is unknown. The DOD’s annual report on China’s military power for years showed great uncertainty about the number of DF-21s, the 2006 report listing a range of 19-50 missiles on 34-38 launchers. The 2007 report, however, lists 40-50 missiles on 34-38 launchers, which suggests the DOD believes the number of missiles has increased while the number of launchers has stayed the same.

Delingha (Tibetan: གཏེར་ལེན་ཁ་]] is the capital of Haixi Mongol and Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture in Qinghai.

From Asia Times

"China's positioning of its intermediate range missiles such as DF-4s and DF-21s in Tibet, and reports which suggest that China could also deploy DF-31 and DF-31A ICBMs at bases such as Delingha near Tibet, raise serious concerns. Both the DF-31s and DF-31As are road mobile and use solid propellant engines. Placing medium-range ballistic missiles in Delingha which can hit targets approximately 2,500 kilometers away can put all of northern India at risk, including New Delhi," said Dr Rajeswari Rajagopalan, senior fellow in security studies at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.

From Free Tibet:

The Chinese military presence in Tibet includes, 17 secret radar stations and 14 military airfields, 8 missile bases, and at least 8 ICBMs, 70 medium-range missiles and 20 intermediate range missiles.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 23 Dec 2009 15:48

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/dec/ ... er-nsa.htm
Brajesh Mishra states it loud & clear while MMS continues to sleep bissfully.

A_Shankar · Post by **A_Shankar** » 30 Jan 2010 16:03

at the risk of sounding naive I would suggest that Indian foreign policy "experts" (including those operating off the armchair here) need to tone down on China and seriously consider building bridges with that country. To clarify, I am NOT suggesting we go back to singing Hindi Chini bhai-bhai. But a situation devolving towards confrontation has no upside for India while it helps our sworn enemy Pakistan.

Chinese World View
The babus in-charge of Indian foreign policy should for once earn their perks and seriously try to understand China and its world view. The Chinese party wants to take China to its days of ancient glory (whatever that means) and they see Tibet and Taiwan as part of Greater China. Of course that also includes parts of India. But then a lot of this Indian territory was simply annexed by the British (damn them!) and transferred to India after '47. Indians had little or no conception of these lands as an 'integral part of India'.

I am not saying hand it to them on a platter but just to consider the possibility that their position could be as genuine as ours. And unlike pompous Nehru who flatly rejected the Chinese claims (as opposed to negotiating), India needs to work with them. Denying it or dismissing it as Imperialism or being overly defensive over a bunch of barren mountains that no one goes to is not worth the conflict and its consequences.

Tibet and Democracy and the USA
Spreading democracy and safeguarding freedom are marketing slogans of the world's only super power and they are of course notorious for their politically expediency in using it. India should reject any such self righteous positions on Tibet and do what suits our broader national interests best. If that means exiling Dalai Lama to make peace with China then so be it.

I totally understand why China would hate India for this reason alone. It's like Pakistan shelters the LeT and JeM. These guys are freedom fighters in Pakistan and terrorists in India.

Also India should be careful about 'aligning' too much with the Americans lest they play us off against China the same way they played Pakistan against the Russians in Afghanistan. Again only suggesting that before the lines are drawn with China, India should be careful not to precipitate the situation. Rivalry with China may not cost us as much as friendship with the USA.

Pakistan
China is currently happy to aid and arm Pakistan to the teeth because unlike what Pakistanis might foolishly believe, Pakistan's importance to China is only in being the hitman or the family hammer or whatever you call a hired assassin. Credit to the Pakistanis for being played like a pawn for the Nth time but that's another story..

The point is that instead of cementing that relationship, India should work towards breaking it. Here is a choice - A non-threatening China and an isolated Pakistan vs hostile China using Pakistan against us.

And logically speaking (without sounding like Nehru) I see no reason why the Chinese would want to be the last country in the world to prop Pakistan when the relationship with India could be quite rewarding for them too. Unless of course they perceive territorial threat from India or are in fact as Imperialist as we imagine them to be..

Bottomline
The Indian establishment needs to open its mind to the possibilities that exist out of a good relationship with China. Pakistan is our main enemy. But an enemy's friend does not have to be an enemy..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Jan 2010 16:15

what is the price of a 'good relationship' with China?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jan 2010 16:21

Moreover, I do not see why the Chinese have a better case for Tawang and Aksai Chin than us.

They have already given nuclear weapons and missile technology to Pakistan. Isn't that sufficient?

It is probably unfair to compare Dalai Lama to LeT/JEM.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 30 Jan 2010 16:22

^^^ Non existence as a nation

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jan 2010 16:25

While the USA is not perfect, it is difficult to make the case that the Chinese are better than the Americans (for us).

A_Shankar · Post by **A_Shankar** » 30 Jan 2010 16:36

@Lalmohan
I would say that depends on what they ask for on the negotiating table. But in order to help open our minds I was wondering - what is India willing to give up for an isolated Pakistan that is not being supplied by arms and nukes and money by China. Along with a peaceful eastern border. And support in international forums from a UNSC member. And a healthy trade relationship with soon to be the worlds second largest economy ??

@abhishek_sharma
I never implied that Dalai Lama is LeT. My only point is how the Chinese view him. My guess is they call him a separatist and they have insane hatred of him!!!
Also what land belong to who is not that important if the parties across the table trust that they don't threaten the other's existence.
And I am only warning against playing into the "friendship with America" at the expense of the friendship with China. I am not saying one is decidedly better than the other. But a hostile China is really really bad for India because it is right next to us and it's friends with a country that does want to destroy us.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Jan 2010 16:45

peacemaker: I do not want India to give up anything. I want India to take back all that we have already lost. period.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 30 Jan 2010 16:48

peacemaker wrote: I would say that depends on what they ask for on the negotiating table. But in order to help open our minds I was wondering - what is India willing to give up for an isolated Pakistan that is not being supplied by arms and nukes and money by China. Along with a peaceful eastern border. And support in international forums from a UNSC member. And a healthy trade relationship with soon to be the worlds second largest economy ??

We don't want to give up land.

What do you mean by "healthy trade relationship"? I think our trade relationship is perfectly fine.

Again, China has already transferred nuclear technology to Pakistan.
How much aid do they give to Pakistan?
Pakistan's conventional weapons do not bother me.

Also what land belong to who is not that important if the parties across the table trust that they don't threaten the other's existence.

Really?

And I am only warning against playing into the "friendship with America" at the expense of the friendship with China. I am not saying one is decidedly better than the other. But a hostile China is really really bad for India because it is right next to us and it's friends with a country that does want to destroy us.

I don't think friendship with America has colored India's China policy.

A_Shankar · Post by **A_Shankar** » 30 Jan 2010 16:55

Lalmohan wrote:peacemaker: I do not want India to give up anything. I want India to take back all that we have already lost. period.

well, I appreciate your patriotism but that line of thinking is no different than the chest thumping Pakistanis who keep losing wars and sound like brash kindergartners when making threats. meanwhile Pakistan is the only winner if India doesn't deescalate with China..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jan 2010 17:47

The babus in-charge of Indian foreign policy should for once earn their perks and seriously try to understand China and its world view. The Chinese party wants to take China to its days of ancient glory (whatever that means) and they see Tibet and Taiwan as part of Greater China. Of course that also includes parts of India. But then a lot of this Indian territory was simply annexed by the British (damn them!) and transferred to India after '47. Indians had little or no conception of these lands as an 'integral part of India'.

So India needs to relook at claims to parts of its territory because the Chinese says so? Now I've seen this argument before with the Chinese and Pakistanis. Go for the maximum claim, even if it outright ridiculous, shout from roof top about it ad infinitum (objection to visit of PM to AP/paper visas) and make it stick as "the dispute". The other party(read India) than starts from the backfoot and by accepting your position as dispute, has already surrendered the ground.

Similar is the argument of British carving the frontiers of India and historical claims of China.If I extend your logic, Mongolians should lay claim to the entire stretch from Siberia to Central Europe?Right. And as for the conception of the lands, I'm sure every chinese went to every part of the kingdom from time immemorial and handed down the tales of the greatness of the kingdom down the ages.And hence, every chinese has great nostalgic feeling about the previous portions of the great chinese kingdom

I am not saying hand it to them on a platter but just to consider the possibility that their position could be as genuine as ours. And unlike pompous Nehru who flatly rejected the Chinese claims (as opposed to negotiating), India needs to work with them. Denying it or dismissing it as Imperialism or being overly defensive over a bunch of barren mountains that no one goes to is not worth the conflict and its consequences.

I'm quite sure you're smoking something great or think we're on a high.What Nehru is guilty of is not reading the janus faced nature of the chinese and not of 'not negotiating'.The chinese strategy during the whole facade of dialouge process was to buy time till they completed the Xinjiang-Tibet highway.Once that was complete, the gloves were off. and as for the barren mountains angle, let the chinese, the new sun of the universe, be the magnanimous power and withdraw from Aksai-Chin and accept the Mcmohan Line.And wouldn't that be great, hain ji?

Tibet and Democracy and the USA

Spreading democracy and safeguarding freedom are marketing slogans of the world's only super power and they are of course notorious for their politically expediency in using it. India should reject any such self righteous positions on Tibet and do what suits our broader national interests best. If that means exiling Dalai Lama to make peace with China then so be it.

I totally understand why China would hate India for this reason alone. It's like Pakistan shelters the LeT and JeM. These guys are freedom fighters in Pakistan and terrorists in India.

You're preaching to the choir here as far as the democracy and HR shenanighans of the west are concerned.And as for the broader national interest of India are concerned---it is a buffer state between Indian frontiers and China.And please don't compare HH The Dalai Lama with pigs from LET and JEM.One is a reverred figure by the millions across the globe, an apostle of peace and other are scumbags and excuse of a living being. Your analogy about terrorist and freedom fighters is down right ridiculous.

And logically speaking (without sounding like Nehru) I see no reason why the Chinese would want to be the last country in the world to prop Pakistan when the relationship with India could be quite rewarding for them too. Unless of course they perceive territorial threat from India or are in fact as Imperialist as we imagine them to be..

And as for the adjustment with China, let me tell you something. It is not about the real estate or Dalai Lama.It is about the supremacy of the Asia and thence, world. Even if after showing utter spinlessness in dealing with chinese, running down our defence preparedness in the Western/Central/NE LAC, Indian leaders not visiting AP and dealing with the way we do with Tibetans, Chinese are not satisfied/percieve us to be a threat and arm the TSPA, nothing that we do will set the things right.And wait!remember what I wrote in the beginning of the article....start from a position of maximum claim.So, here I am explaining why India should not work towards accomodating any chinese concerns.Has China ever tried to adjust Indian concerns?Any body remember any such magnanimous jesture?Nope.What we get is revelations about the actual transfer of atom bomb design, pearls of string strategy, M-11 missiles delivered to TSPA etc.And you think all this has happened because of some real estate in some corner of the world?How sweet!!!!!

Added later:I'm using this gem of post by Philip(used to explain the indo-pak scenario) to explain the present nature of relationship between GOI and chinese goons:

We actually display the virtues of a dog that has benen repeatedly thrashed by its master and keeps on wagging its tail,cringing in behaviour,hoping that its master will throw a few crumbs to it if it displays such a "non-violent" attitude! In real fact,only if it threatens to bite or bites its violent master,will its master be more careful and considerate in treating his dog.I do not see any chance that under our good doctor and peddlar of snake-oil and the "peace" pipe,will we display any other vritue other than that of the cringing dog.

And Mr.Peacemaker wants us to be more servile in our attitide than we already are.