Bharat Rakshak

ravig wrote:

SwamyG wrote:CNN IBN reporting a skirmish in Nathu La between Chinese and Indian troops. India army denies it.

Was in Gangtok on Wednesday. the local driver mentioned some plans that 'the main highway 31A to Gangtok and furthur to Nathu La would be blocked for 3 days' as Indian Army would be transporting some heavy goods...

dont know if both are linked...

GoI states that there are land slides, thus the blockage!!

narayanan wrote:

CNN IBN reporting a skirmish in Nathu La between Chinese and Indian troops. India army denies it.

Now pls kindly read Dr. Santhanam's statement again, very carefully.

N cubus Maximus 2012 in the making.....

Raj Malhotra wrote:BRF will be glad to know that BSNL is in the process of awarding the worlds biggest telecom contracts to chinese companies & no doubt the equipment will be maintained by the chinese.

IIRC, GoI at the same time wants higher ups to be Indian citizens - for security purposes (taping, etc).

Yup, chaiwala khabar from a sikkim. NH31A linkinh Gangtok (and further, Nathula) to Siliguri has been closed to civilian traffic. Military vehicles plying heavily only. many mistook this to be just another gorkhaland agitation strike/rasta oko. But something more ominous is brewing seems like.

I put NathuLa in Feb'08. Heavy work on widening the steepy hairpin bends and roads was on at multiple locations using nimble earrthmovers back then. Hopefully, that work has been completed by now.

Hari Seldon wrote:Yup, chaiwala khabar from a sikkim. NH31A linkinh Gangtok (and further, Nathula) to Siliguri has been closed to civilian traffic. Military vehicles plying heavily only. many mistook this to be just another gorkhaland agitation strike/rasta oko. But something more ominous is brewing seems like.

I put NathuLa in Feb'08. Heavy work on widening the steepy hairpin bends and roads was on at multiple locations using nimble earrthmovers back then. Hopefully, that work has been completed by now.

dont know abt your source, but the highway was open for civilian traffic today.atleast from the gangtok end of the highway...

Nathula road was being widened officially because of a 'need' for a proper two lane road like on the Chinese side for trade purposes...its still going on at most places...nowhere near completion..atleast one more year for it to be fully operational....

atleast one more year for it to be fully operational....

Wonder why they can't put more priority on this - like, arrange a visit by Rahul Gandhi. Worked wonders when his dad visited my nbd in bangalore, Kerala many saal ago to inagurate an Amul dairy station. Road transformed from potholed goat-track to 2-lane blacktop almost overnight.

narayanan wrote:

atleast one more year for it to be fully operational....

Wonder why they can't put more priority on this - like, arrange a visit by Rahul Gandhi. Worked wonders when his dad visited my nbd in bangalore, Kerala many saal ago to inagurate an Amul dairy station. Road transformed from potholed goat-track to 2-lane blacktop almost overnight.

It will never happen in Bengal.

If Rahul comes, they will organise more potholes!

I am getting a strong spider feel that some form of "yellow matter hit the fan" event might occur in the next 2 months.

STAFF WRITER 21:48 HRS IST

Gangtok, Aug 28 (PTI) Sikkim Chief Minister Pawan Kumar Chamling today held a closed-door meeting with top police officials to review the security situation in the state.

At the meeting lasting more than two hours at the police headquarters this afternoon, Chamling discussed the situation, official sources said.

The chief minister directed the officials to strenthen policing throughout against the backdrop of unsubstantiated reports of skirmishes at the Sino-India border, the sources said.

Chamling also discussed modernisation of the police and equipping them with sophisticated arms with the assistance of central funds, they said.

Earlier in the day, Chamling, in reply to a question by mediapersons, had laughed off reports of the skirmishes on Sino-India border at Nathu La.


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Sporadic exchanges of fire between Indian and Chinese armies in Sikkim PDF Print E-mail

NEW DELHI, Aug 28 (APP): Sporadic exchanges of fire between the Indian and Chinese armies have been reported in Sikkim since Tuesday.The “Hindustan Times” quoting a senior Defence Ministry official in Kolkata said clashes had taken place at Nathu-la pass “ 54 km east of Sikkim’s capital Gangtok. India’s Eastern Command is based in Kolkata.
The defence official based in Kolkata said “the gunbattle intensified during the early hours of Wednesday. There are, however, no reports of any death or serious injuries.”

However, the Indian Ministry of Defence in statement has denied any shooting in Sikkim.

The daily quoting the official further said all civilian traffic had been stopped. However, the Defence Ministry statement said the roads had been closed in the area because of landslides.

“The skirmish caused concern as at a special joint meeting in New Delhi both sides reaffirmed their resolve to strengthen the existing friendship,” the official said.

China and India recently held a meeting here to discuss the boundary issues.
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Even after Kargil the Indian Army doesnt have official spokesperson? Are they still in burkha mode of Britsh Army in 19th century?

And the CM of Sikkim is taking steps and doesnt know what for? Confusion will add to the problem.

Just hit me what must have happened!!!

Shiv posted his Northern Arunachal vacation pictures on GoogleMaps and GoogleDuniya. Esp. the one showing the PLA general looking out of his Command Post at the base of Mt. Gopalankutty. No wonder the PLA is under fire.

What is the deal with that North Korean ship? That is one puzzle that seems to be getting less attention in Indian media than it deserves. Did it have stuff that showed the reason why Pakis are ramping up plutonium production like there is no tomorrow (a stark reality in their case)? Why is the ship being taken to an Indian port, if the ship was only about Noko? Is there going to be a perp-parade or a "brochure display" at the quayside for the sake of India's global "partners"? AQKhan got absolved of all crimes today. Am not getting into Shree Santhanam etc. but.... wow!

For those who about Indian timidness, isnt it wonderful the way these Noko ships magically lose their steering and suddenly appear in Indian areas of influence for a check up? X-files territory

ramana wrote: And the CM of Sikkim is taking steps and doesnt know what for? Confusion will add to the problem.

Counter-intel. This is no fun

my inlaws are scheduled to pass thru north bengal tomorrow night by train. hope they get through
chicken neck safely.

NRao wrote:
GoI states that there are land slides, thus the blockage!!

that's not necessarily incorrect, there are landslides on those roads all the time, especially this time of the year.

so far imo, they must have sneaked in, occupied some empty territory and now we detected and responded with small arms.

it cannot be left like that. they must be evicted using heavy artillery and airpower without delay. so long as they are in our territory, even retreating forces must be mercilessly attacked - no more of the old Indian failing of letting retreating enemies go scot free onlee to return next summer.

Singha wrote:so far imo, they must have sneaked in, occupied some empty territory and now we detected and responded with small arms.

it cannot be left like that. they must be evicted using heavy artillery and airpower without delay. so long as they are in our territory, even retreating forces must be mercilessly attacked - no more of the old Indian failing of letting retreating enemies go scot free onlee to return next summer.

In this very thread a few posts back, I had predicted that China will do a Siachin on us i.e. that they will capture some area. The GoI will just give up and deny everything rather than using IAF

Does anyone have access to SPOT5 imagery?
S

Raj Malhotra wrote:

Singha wrote:so far imo, they must have sneaked in, occupied some empty territory and now we detected and responded with small arms.

it cannot be left like that. they must be evicted using heavy artillery and airpower without delay. so long as they are in our territory, even retreating forces must be mercilessly attacked - no more of the old Indian failing of letting retreating enemies go scot free onlee to return next summer.

In this very thread a few posts back, I had predicted that China will do a Siachin on us i.e. that they will capture some area. The GoI will just give up and deny everything rather than using IAF

indian govt will deny chinese or paki presence even if their army would be sitting just 1 km away from south block.Remember they tried to hide kargil too untill bodies arriving back in india in huge numbers.only thing our govt can do is to ask lata mangeskar to sing to celebrate defeat and eunuch politicians to shed crocodiles tears on lataji's sweet song like in 1962

Just out of curiosity - how come the news of such things can stay quiet? Aren't there doodhwallas / paanwallas or shepherds etc in that region, and doesn't news get around fast if there is enemy action? Is all the fighting in places where ONLY soldiers go? Smoke and sounds of firing can't be heard? Why are there so few reports coming out?

I also tried to see if China News was saying anything, but nothing there either. I hope that is a good sign, in that they are getting a "bloody nose, befitting reply" etc.

RC is already at the front. There wont be any war. The PLA will do uphill skiing.

well there are many border areas where nobody is allowed to proceed and shepherds dont have
benefit of cellphones to call anyone because cellphone coverage is blacked out in such areas.

for instance certain roads leading towards aksai chin are check gated by the army. even on the tourist
trail, all vehicles need permits and I suppose someone sits everyday to take inventory if all came back.

so if yellow matter hit fan in daulat beg oldie, demchok or north sikkim it can be hidden. nathu la
being a trading post might have more settlements.

Unless the border is at least 5 to 10 miles away from nearest civilization, artillery and rising smoke must be observable?

Gurus, are we even sure that something is happening?

Reports from Nathu La spoke of small arms engagements. Check out this report for wierdness:

New Delhi, August 28:

Indian and Chinese armies are reportedly exchanging fire in Sikkim since Tuesday night, said a senior Defence Ministry official in Kolkata. This clash has come a few days after both sides committed to strengthen relations.

As reported by an Indian national daily, that clash is on at the Nathu-La pass, 54 km east of Sikkim’s capital Gangtok. The Defence Ministry confirmed that the gun-battle intensified during the early hours of Wednesday. No death or injuries have been reported so far.

He said that the civilian traffic in the area has been stopped as a result of the ongoing fire-exchange.

The Ministry of Defence has, in a statement, denied any such clash on the India-China border saying the roads were closed due to landslides.

Nathu-La pass is India’s highest international border, and an important trade post.

>Unless the border is at least 5 to 10 miles away from nearest civilization

there are streches of tens of miles in ladakh with no civilian population at all.
and whatever little there is can be blacked out by GOI ordering the local police
to hold them in protective custody for a while and cut the phone links.

the first instinct of a cowardly and incompetent GOI is to cover up and deny,
they will admit only when TV channels breach the perimeter or casualties pile
up too much to simply pass off as 'landslide/avalanche victims'

Worked wonders when his dad visited my nbd in bangalore, Kerala many saal ago to inagurate an Amul dairy station. Road transformed from potholed goat-track to 2-lane blacktop almost overnight.

There is a basic engg. limitation to mountain raods, one has to wait atleast one full monsoon season before anything stabalizes.

It will never happen in Bengal.
If Rahul comes, they will organise more potholes!

Comparing Bengal & Sikkim is like comparing Lahore & Amritsar...

GoI states that there are land slides, thus the blockage!!
that's not necessarily incorrect, there are landslides on those roads all the time, especially this time of the year.

There were some land slides...one stretch was being operated as one way for some time...but it was never completely blocked...

Just out of curiosity - how come the news of such things can stay quiet? Aren't there doodhwallas / paanwallas or shepherds etc in that region, and doesn't news get around fast if there is enemy action? Is all the fighting in places where ONLY soldiers go? Smoke and sounds of firing can't be heard? Why are there so few reports coming out?

I also tried to see if China News was saying anything, but nothing there either. I hope that is a good sign, in that they are getting a "bloody nose, befitting reply" etc.

Unless the border is at least 5 to 10 miles away from nearest civilization, artillery and rising smoke must be observable?

Media presence in sikkim in extremely thin...AFAIK there is only one 3 page english local daily...
and besides people generally have lotsa sustainence issues to ponder about rather than some skirmish miles from their homes...

http://www.sikkimexpress.com/
http://www.sikkimtimes.com/
http://voiceofsikkim.com/
http://sikkimreporter.com/
http://sikkim-news.newslib.com/
http://www.haalkhabar.com/
http://www.sikkimonline.info/

Oh and

The Army brass at New Delhi (again!) insisted that that peace and tranquility is maintained at the nation’s borders and there is no troop buildup in Sikkim.
That whatever reports and rejoinders are being tossed around between national media and the Army is taking place at New Delhi even as Sikkim continues to reel under confusion completes the charade of ‘rumours’ and ‘unconfirmed reports’.
So much that a local private FM channel was asking to its listeners what they will do in case such travesty occurs along the Sikkim Theater. One reply was ‘taking out the kukri to fight’.

From the first source (gotta admire their attitude).

Question is, will GOI allow the army to use heavy mortars or field arty if required or persist with it's gandhian NFU policy even in this case.

Indian tanks move in Sikkim after Chinese activities
Headlines Today
New Delhi, July 28, 2009 So something has been brewing for more than one month.

There is trouble brewing on India-China border in Sikkim. The Indian army has moved T-72 main battle tanks to a remote area in north Sikkim after China increased patrolling in the strategic Finger Area.

China now plans to build a road through the Finger Area.

The Indian army is strengthening defences in the area by deploying heavy tanks and armoured personnel carriers. The mobilisation took place after repeated Chinese transgressions last year in the Finger Area -- 1 km stretch of land in the northern tip of Sikkim that overlooks a valley called the Sora Funnel.

Finger Area is considered a strong defensive position. The army has also increased surveillance capabilities in the region. At least two Long Range Observation Systems have been set up in the Finger Area.

The strengthening of defences has taken place partly after the re-induction of 27 Mountain Division to north Sikkim.

The Finger Area came under focus after the Chinese increased patrolling and even planned to build a road through it. While the area was always under Indian control, the army held only a few traditional defensive positions.

Raj Malhotra wrote:Indian tanks move in Sikkim after Chinese activities
Headlines Today
New Delhi, July 28, 2009 So something has been brewing for more than one month.

There is trouble brewing on India-China border in Sikkim. The Indian army has moved T-72 main battle tanks to a remote area in north Sikkim after China increased patrolling in the strategic Finger Area.

China now plans to build a road through the Finger Area.

same thing (finger area) discussed in atleast one chinese news media site. Here is a english translation of the article in chinese: http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... kim&swap=1

Pranab to take up Sikkim border dispute with China


Posted: Jun 04, 2008 at 1413 hrs IST (Three months back)


Foreign secretary Shiv Shankar Menon revealed that discussion on the disputed ‘Finger Point’ area in Sikkim will be the top agenda of External Affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee’s visit to China. Mennon told a TV channel that there are issues as to how the two nations “manage the border together”.

Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee visits China this week, under pressure at home for "appeasing" his country's powerful northern neighbour over a long-running border dispute and over Tibetan protests.


But a border dispute, which dates back to a 1962 war, still festers. Indian officials in border areas complain of more aggressive Chinese patrolling and encroachment along the Himalayas in the past year, although the central government and senior generals have been at pains to play down the incidents.


"The government's craven response to all these endangers India -- for it tempts China," the BJP said after a meeting of its top leaders on Monday, referring to Chinese "incursions".

"That temptation is compounded by the slavish attitude that the ... government has repeatedly demonstrated to China e.g in handling the Olympic torch matter and by the way it is trying to muzzle His Holiness the Dalai Lama."

It is a criticism echoed by local commentators like Bharat Bhushan in the Mail Today, who accused the Indian government of "bending over backwards" to China without any apparent dividend, and accused Mukherjee of "making an ass of himself".

"On Tibet, the kind of public scolding Pranab Mukherjee heaped on the Dalai Lama was astonishing," he wrote.

But Shashi Tharoor, a former U.N. Under Secretary General, author and commentator, argued that India could not afford to alienate a large trading partner and an emerging superpower.

"India will continue to balance delicately on the Tibetan tightrope," he wrote in Pakistan's Daily Times. "Few observers believe the BJP would have conducted itself differently."

China claims large swathes of the northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh and occupies land in Ladakh in the northwest claimed by India. But a fresh dispute emerged in recent weeks when Chinese officials reportedly laid claim to the northernmost tip of the Indian state of Sikkim.

An Indian official admitted there were "areas of concern" in the relationship but said he would rather not focus on them.

Instead of getting into the nitty-gritty of the border dispute, which is the subject of separate talks by special envoys, Mukherjee may be more interested in getting Chinese cooperation over water, he said.

Important Indian rivers like the Brahmaputra rise on the Tibetan plateau, and although China said it has no plans to divert them, New Delhi would like to share hydrological data to better manage water flows downstream.

Chinese claim on Sikkim tip minor: India

May 19th, 2008 - 8:48 (Four months back)
New Delhi, May 18 (IANS) India Sunday described as “minor and local” a Chinese claim on a northern tip of Sikkim adjoining Tibet, saying such issues were not new. “It is a minor and local issue,” an official source here said.

“These problems will happen,” the source added, speaking on condition of anonymity.

“India and China have the world’s longest peaceful border even though this is not settled,” the source pointed out.

The latest flashpoint in the otherwise warming India-China ties lies in the northernmost tip of Sikkim and appears on the map like a protruding finger and has thus been named Finger Area.

It contains several stone cairns or heaps of stones that demarcate the India-China frontier. China has now threatened to demolish these cairns, a move that has surprised New Delhi, which says that such a move would violate a pact to maintain peace and tranquility along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), as the frontier is referred to.
At a scheduled border personnel meeting at Nathu La in Sikkim Thursday, India served notice it would not permit Chinese troops to enter the area.

A day earlier, at a Beijing luncheon meeting between an Indian team led by Indian Ambassador to China Nirupama Rao and a Chinese team led by Assistant Foreign Minister for Foreign Affairs He Yafei, an Indian diplomat was informed of Chinese objections to New Delhi’s stance.

“China is following the right procedure in informing us of its stance,” the source said.

“If an issue cannot be resolved at a flag meeting, it is taken to a higher level,” the source added.

The build-up to the row began last year when Chinese troops began to frequent the area and even constructing a road that crossed the Finger Area.

India then lodged a diplomatic protest in February after which the road construction near the area came to a halt. India also started strengthening its positions and constructing pathways in the area - a move that prompted China to re-emphasise its claim to the area.

“Issues will arise whenever you rub shoulders with each other,” the source said, pointing to the “live and let live” policy the two armies had adopted on the LAC.

“Since the boundary has yet to be defined, there is often a lack of perception on where it lies. Sometimes, their troops come into what we perceive as our area and sometimes our troops go into areas the Chinese perceive to be theirs,” an army officer who has served in the area said.

Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony and Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor have often spoken in similar vein, pointing out that the two countries have a mechanism in place to resolve their boundary row even as they move ahead in improving their political, economic and cultural ties.

The Indian and Chinese armies also conducted their first war games in China late last year. Another joint drill is to be conducted in India later this year.

Now lets start rebuilding the fancy scenarios in which IAF will bomb the base depots, roads, bridges and railway network of China. Lets face it, IAF & Navy will not be used. Army will have to do all the lifting, War with China will be replay of 1962. And our Army modernization as well as infrastructure is in dismal state.

I am beginning to think, that a little border with China may not be a bad thing.

We need to get out of the slumber. It may just shake us out of it. The other countries also need to know that China is a global menace, and there is going to be no such thing as a peaceful rise.

USA may at first simply giggle at the siege on India, but I am sure there will be generals in USA who would be able to impress on Obama, that America should not pamper China. China is a dangerous adversary, and it ought to be treated like that, by containing it, building alliances, and taking a military build-up seriously.

All of trade with China deals with India selling raw materials and buying finished products. Is that trade? We are having $24 billion trade deficit per year. Is that trade? This trade needs to end here and now.

China is an enemy and the sooner the Indian public is reminded of it, the better.

A little border war is not bad. Better for India to choose, where it takes place.

Ah! THIS is what this is all about? Chinese MOVIES are coming in to Indian TV sets. That's why there's so much noise!

From today's Sikkim Express:

Direct terrestrial cable link through Nathu-La announced, Chamber of Commerce terms it landmark success
... Sikkim Chamber of Commerce has congratulated Reliance Communications and China Telecom for having announced the opening of the first direct terrestrial cable link between the Chinese and Indian domestic markets through Nathu-La.
The cable passes through the inhospitable terrain of the Nathu-La Pass, linking Yadong in China to Siliguri in India. The cable will provide direct, enterprise class connectivity between all major Indian and Chinese locations as well as expanding high-bandwidth coverage to more rural regions and cities in both countries.
A press release issued by SK Sarda, president, Sikkim Chamber of Commerce adds that Reliance Globalcom, the global arm of Reliance Communications can now offer the additional protection of two separate cable routes between India and China with considerable less risk from natural disasters.

Note date:

Nathu La trade resumes after one year
Aug 26,2009 00:00 by the Statesman
GANGTOK, 24 AUG: The Indo-China border trade through Nathu La resumed today after remaining closed since 1 August due to landslides along the JN Marg, connecting Nathu La with Gangtok.

The road leading to Nathu La border was completely washed off near the Mandakini falls during the landslide. According to officials of the state commerce and industries department, 17 Indian traders used the alternate route RN Marg through Rongli in East District to reach Nathu La today.

It was also reported that 38 traders from the Chinese side visited Nathu La today. {each carrying an AK-56}

According to customs department reports, Indian goods worth over Rs 10 lakh were exported in August last year, while this August the volume till date stood nil due to road closure. Similarly, no transaction was reported for the months of May and June this year.

The total exports for July this year is Rs 9.24 lakh, while last year the exports were Rs 7 Lakhs in the corresponding period. The Indo-China border trade between Sikkim and Thiruvanthapuram Autonomous Region (TAR) takes place from May to 31 November every year.

It is also informed that the Sikkim government has repeatedly approached the Centre for revision of the list of tradable items.

As per the bilateral agreement in 2006 only 29 items can be exported to the TAR from the Indian side while the Chinese traders can export only 15 items as per the prescribed scheduled items allowed for the border trade. Traders from both sides have been demanding the revision of tradable items, saying that the present items listed in the schedule are obsolete and do not have commercial value. SNS

But.. here's www.haalkhabar.com

Chamling reviews security in Sikkim
Gangtok, August 29 (IST 5:28): Sikkim Chief Minister Pawan Chamling today held a closed-door meeting with top police officials to review the security situation in the state. At the meeting lasting more than two hours at the police headquarters this afternoon, Chamling discussed the situation, official sources said.
The chief minister directed the officials to strengthen policing throughout against the backdrop of unsubstantiated reports {mostly on the notorious Bharat Rona-Dhona Forum} of skirmishes at the Sino-India border, the sources said. Chamling also discussed modernization of the police and equipping them with sophisticated arms with the assistance of central funds, they said.

Sir,
While checking this area on Google Earth, came across this wonderful sight at the same area being discussed - coordinates 27° 22' 27.49" N 88° 48' 57.09" E.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4865515

Jai Hind.