Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby rohitvats » 30 Jan 2010 18:00

peacemaker wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:peacemaker: I do not want India to give up anything. I want India to take back all that we have already lost. period.


well, I appreciate your patriotism but that line of thinking is no different than the chest thumping Pakistanis who keep losing wars and sound like brash kindergartners when making threats. meanwhile Pakistan is the only winner if India doesn't deescalate with China..


Hmmm....I think you don't understand the contradiction in your statement...Pakistanis making claims about XYZ is same as Pakistan Army and Gov. having their wet dreams. In case of India, us arm-chair generals making claims somehow does not merit attention of the GOI.After all we;re peace-loving people onlee.How I wish it would.Then IA would not have raised/about to raise 4 Mountain Divisions but the planned 11.You see what the chinese with their constant bickering the rants/raves have done is push the Indian establishment to take some action.Hence, the planned raising of new formations,infra upgrade in NE and Ladakh,tunnel under Rohtang Pass,opening of ALG in Western Sector etc.Now, considering the lethargy, inertia and myopic POV in the Indian establishment, chinese must have done something really nasty to get them to move their ar** and act on the clear and present danger.

Pakistan is more of an irritant which will continue to grow in irrelevance(guess pakis can grow only in -ve direction :P ) for India.That is inevitable.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Jan 2010 18:41

peacemaker - nice try, but c'mon. china is nothing to be scared of. pakistan as rohitvats says is an irrelevance that will go away fairly soon

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby chaanakya » 30 Jan 2010 19:39

peacemaker wrote:

Chinese World View
The Chinese party wants to take China to its days of ancient glory (whatever that means) and they see Tibet and Taiwan as part of Greater China. Of course that also includes parts of India. But then a lot of this Indian territory was simply annexed by the British (damn them!) and transferred to India after '47. Indians had little or no conception of these lands as an 'integral part of India'.


Well , could you tell us which map of China of ancient glory should we accept as forming the legal basis of Chinese claim over territory.Just for reference one could refer to these maps
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/ ... p/map.html
whether other bordering countries would also accept these as forming a common legal basis for chinese claims.
What would be the status of Indian maps of ancient India/northern Indian empire vis a vis chinese maps.

Whether Indians has conception of some pan indian world views or not , look no further then our cultural heritage and scriptures and writings. Maansarovar is treated as part of devbhumi. Till today Indians go to maansarovar and chinese do facilitate these visits. Does it mean they recognise our ancient world view inclusive of Maansarovar ?
Look no further then this for concept of integral india. The concept of political unity is of more recent origins and mostly european.

Could you enlighten us what you perceive to be the underlying principles behind chinese claims , besides geopolitical concerns, valid for both countries? Do we accept these principles as valid and just or simply on the basis of " might is right" ?

peacemaker wrote:
I am not saying hand it to them on a platter but just to consider the possibility that their position could be as genuine as ours. Denying it or dismissing it as Imperialism or being overly defensive over a bunch of barren mountains that no one goes to is not worth the conflict and its consequences.


I am reminded of famous retort by Mahaveer Tyagi to Nehru over debate on Aksai Chin pointing to his bald head
"Nothing grows here ..should it be cut off or given away to somebody else?". Perhaps China should be educated to think on the lines you argue, why should they claim something on which nothing grows? Consequences would be as bad for them as it may be for us.

peacemaker wrote:Tibet and Democracy and the USA
Spreading democracy and safeguarding freedom are marketing slogans of the world's only super power and they are of course notorious for their politically expediency in using it. India should reject any such self righteous positions on Tibet and do what suits our broader national interests best. If that means exiling Dalai Lama to make peace with China then so be it.

I totally understand why China would hate India for this reason alone. It's like Pakistan shelters the LeT and JeM. These guys are freedom fighters in Pakistan and terrorists in India.

Rivalry with China may not cost us as much as friendship with the USA.


Read Mahabharat to understand Indian Position. Righteous position is what prevails at the end. China would love to show that Indians are pragmatist and can change position under pressure from china since their is no underlying claim to righteousness. Any right and just claim can show China in a bad light. Remember Tienanmein ? Could it be justified on political expediency or anything.

It is really ridiculous to compare Let and JeM with Dalai Lama. If you forgot then Tibet used to have independent status till it was occupied by China by force. It is still disputed . Dalai Lama never preached violence and use of force. This is what irks China, it can not show to the world that he is a terrorist as you are implying now, for the first time ever.

India desires nothing but friendship with China, it is for Chinese to reciprocate by deeds. But no friendship can be at the cost of friendship with other countries .

peacemaker wrote:Pakistan
China is currently happy to aid and arm Pakistan to the teeth because unlike what Pakistanis might foolishly believe, Pakistan's importance to China is only in being the hitman or the family hammer or whatever you call a hired assassin. Credit to the Pakistanis for being played like a pawn for the Nth time but that's another story..

The point is that instead of cementing that relationship, India should work towards breaking it. Here is a choice - A non-threatening China and an isolated Pakistan vs hostile China using Pakistan against us.

And logically speaking (without sounding like Nehru) I see no reason why the Chinese would want to be the last country in the world to prop Pakistan when the relationship with India could be quite rewarding for them too. Unless of course they perceive territorial threat from India or are in fact as Imperialist as we imagine them to be..

Its not as if we imagine them to be imperialist. Their craving for days of ancient glory ( as you tell us) makes them expansionist and imperialist, without realising the current situation. But it also helps them in trying to achieve that by growing economic and political strength and ethnic Han unity at the cost of minorities. While it is good for them should others not worry about this and protect their interest?

I see no logic in your claim.Empirical evidence suggests otherwise.

peacemaker wrote:Bottomline
The Indian establishment needs to open its mind to the possibilities that exist out of a good relationship with China. Pakistan is our main enemy. But an enemy's friend does not have to be an enemy..


Pakistan is nothing but a misguided neighbour. Its two nation theory lies in garbage dumps and it has no rerason to justify its separate existence on this basis. One has to wait and see it follow the Berlin episode under the weight of its own contradictions.

Help from China shows chinseser strategic thinking of containing India by keeping us occupied with Pakistan. I see China as the first country to try to prop Pakistan against us , given the history and geopolitical factors. They follow policy of "enemy's enemy, my friend.... "

Our Main concern should be China, if India desires to be a world player worth taking its views seriously by others. And friendship from the position of equality and strength is only thing that India desires and would achieve.Remember the days when IMF was dictating terms to us and we were selling gold to save us. We don't want such a situation to arrive again.Therefore, India desires peace with strength.

India is open-minded and tolerant to the extent of being perceived as soft. We have forgotten the lessons from Panchtantra and Hitopdesa.
"A fearsome venomous snake was terrorising villagers and biting boys. So villagers chased it for killing. Snake ran and entered an Ashram of a rishi , who advised him not to bite anyone. Villagers returned on receiving this assurance. Later snake was stoned by playing boys who had lost fear since snake was not reacting to their stoning it. Snake again took shelter in the same ashram and complained to rishi. Rishi told that he had advised not to bite but did not forbid to show its fangs and hiss."

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby harbans » 30 Jan 2010 20:08

Your talk of exiling Dalai Lama if thats what makes peace with China goes against the fabric of India. Your talk of giving Arunachal (barren mountains where no one goes eh?), if that buys peace again holds no water. India cannot give ArP if not a single citizen there wants to be a part of China. You say we should not harp on Democracy and basic human values in our neighbourhood. You want totalitarian barbaric regimes and value systems in our neighbourhood? That will buy you peace?

You think these are 'border disputes' alone? What sort of value systems would you want to encopurage in the neighbourhood? Naxals in Nepal Ok? Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan OK? You think there will be peace ever in India if totalitarian regimes our all over in the neighbourhood?

WHy not make the Han think about Kailash and Mansarover? They are not even Buddhist, but happen to be the most holy of holy sites for Hindu's for millenia. They lie in Tibet. What claim does the Han have on them?

The tragedy of our country is people like you who think that by placating totalitarian regimes one can buy peace. While the simple truth is that only by standing up to them strongly and proving them ultimately wrong can you get peace.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby chaanakya » 30 Jan 2010 20:48

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 510235.cms

"(So) it is baseless to say that we will not set up any military bases in future because we have never sent troops abroad," an article published on Thursday at a Chinese government website said. "It is our right," the article said and went on to suggest that it would be done in the neighborhood, possibly Pakistan.

"As for the military aspect, we should be able to conduct the retaliatory attack within the country or at the neighboring area of our potential enemies. We should also be able to put pressure on the potential enemies' overseas interests," it said.
.....
...

A Pakistani expert on China-Pakistan relationship has a different view on the subject. "The Americans had a base in the past and it caused a political stink. I don’t think it would be politically possible for the Pakistani government to openly allow China to set up a military base," he said while requesting anonymity. Pakistan might allow use of its military facilities without publicly announcing it, he said.

....
....

"If the base troops can maintain the regional stability, it will be probably welcomed by all the countries in the region," the article said. Beijing is conscious that the move might result in opposition from the US, UK and France which has overseas military bases.

“Thirdly, the relationship between the big countries in the world. The establishment of the troop bases is sensitive to those big countries which have already set up the bases abroad," the article said.


So whats next on the plate? Should India welcome it or see it as a overt threat. Peacemaker , any suggestions?

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Jarita » 30 Jan 2010 22:03

Peacemaker must be from CPIM or NDTV

Let me tell you - as soon as a country concedes land, China will then claim more. That is their policy. I am surprised that we are even entertaining this bozo.
For you a country means barren mountains - that is the level of disconnect you have from the land. For us it is scared. Forget abt why China would want those barren mountains - have you thought abt it.
Even if a blade of grass does not grow, that land is sacred and I want my land back. The concept of scared does not exist for you.

I despise people like Peacemaker. They are the reason why India has lost so much territory since 1947. You are the cause of the drugging of the Indian population. Listening to people like you will lead to the death of the Indian civilization.
For these people is materialistic, from which some utility has to be extracted. India is a free country so they can yak away. Just don't try and meet some of us in person.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby harbans » 30 Jan 2010 22:10

^^^^ Second those sentiments. These people are disconnected from not only our land, but our core value systems. How else do we define a traitor or those who betrayed this nation and it's values in the past?

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Jarita » 30 Jan 2010 22:19

I am so upset by his nonsense that I was running through all the great countries of the world.
No great civilization thought of it's land as a utility. Even the US a young country cobbled with grabbed land - Hawaii, Texas, New Mexico, California does not think of it's land as utility only.
Great civilizations have been sustained through vision, deep love and pragmatism but strongest impulses come from the heart and therefore the atma and not head.
This disease of thinking "practically" as they believe has permeated through our entire elite - Nehru was a symptom. This nonsense is an excuse for emptiness, cowardliness, deep insecurity (desire for approval from western audiences and others considered superior) and also sheer intellectual laziness (inability to contest the enemies point of view).

Our land is already in other hands - we have to take it back and only then will we be doing our duty as Krishna stated. Otherwise, we are nothing. We don't deserve this body.
And those who are proposing to give more of Bharat away only deserve to exist in Pralaykala

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby harbans » 30 Jan 2010 23:29

Agree once again with your sentiments above. The problem is not China. Problem is China's occupation of Tibet. No one for example denies Arunachals links with Tibet, but i will totally deny, (like any one from Arunachal ) it's link with China and PRCs value systems. (Same applies to Tibet). When Communist Han China occupies Tibet it does not understand the depth of spiritual relations, traditional and cultural understanding between India and Tibet for millenia. That's the core problem.

If China was not occupying Tibet, India would have had no border disputes up North. India would possibly have extremely good relations with China too. This is important to understand. People in Arunachal Pradesh have to be not only protected from China, but also people like 'troublemaker' within this land who will not hesitate to barter their freedoms in Sikkim, Bhutan and Ar P to a totalitarian monster.

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 04:02

First, I am not a commie with a jhola. I have deep impulsive hatred of Indian communists. And I tried to say this several times but I think the Indian defensive mindset vis-s-vis China is deep. And we blame Pakistan for the same..

Let me reiterate my claim: China is not as imperialist as Indian politicians/media have made it out to be. We look at the China bogey the same way Pakistan looks at India i.e. "this big country wants to gobble us". But logically speaking the days of traditional imperialism are over. India can no longer be "occupied" and I am sure the Chinese are not that stupid.

All I am saying is resolving disputes with China can be a huge succor to India. We are being held back by the one evil country on our western border and India needs to do whatever can be done to isolate/neutralize Pakistan. The Pakistanis after getting kicked around by the US are now playing lap dog to China. And that hurts India in any number of ways.

India should look at the huge upside of peace with China. The cost of peace depends on how much trust the Indian negotiators can build with China and again I am NOT saying trade Arunachal or accept all Chinese demands. But if they ask for accepting Chinese "sovereignty" as opposed to "suzerainty" over Tibet and shutting down Dalai Lama and his movement then India should be willing to consider that. But India's pre-condition should be that China stop arming and aiding Pakistan and basically give up Pakistan as an "ally".

Of course, no let up in acquiring arms and weapons, just in case...

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 04:10

harbans wrote:Your talk of exiling Dalai Lama if thats what makes peace with China goes against the fabric of India. Your talk of giving Arunachal (barren mountains where no one goes eh?), if that buys peace again holds no water. India cannot give ArP if not a single citizen there wants to be a part of China. You say we should not harp on Democracy and basic human values in our neighbourhood. You want totalitarian barbaric regimes and value systems in our neighbourhood? That will buy you peace?

You think these are 'border disputes' alone? What sort of value systems would you want to encopurage in the neighbourhood? Naxals in Nepal Ok? Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan OK? You think there will be peace ever in India if totalitarian regimes our all over in the neighbourhood?

WHy not make the Han think about Kailash and Mansarover? They are not even Buddhist, but happen to be the most holy of holy sites for Hindu's for millenia. They lie in Tibet. What claim does the Han have on them?

The tragedy of our country is people like you who think that by placating totalitarian regimes one can buy peace. While the simple truth is that only by standing up to them strongly and proving them ultimately wrong can you get peace.


Dude, it is this "fabric of India" kool-aid that we need to stop drinking. And I never said give up AP. Nehru got us into this mess exactly because of this.

Secondly, if you agree that 'power' gets respect, then you also need to respect power when you see it. China is powerful. It ain't Burma. India sticking to its guns and not doing a little readjustment because of "moral values" is simply childish arrogance. Even the shining beacon of the world US is quick to compromise with its values when the right opportunity arises.

And the tragedy of our system is not people like me, it is people like you who live in the world of fantasy (like Gandhi and Nehru) and see things the way they should be instead of the way they are.

pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4128
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby pgbhat » 31 Jan 2010 04:21

peacemaker wrote:Let me reiterate my claim: China is not as imperialist as Indian politicians/media have made it out to be. We look at the China bogey the same way Pakistan looks at India i.e. "this big country wants to gobble us". But logically speaking the days of traditional imperialism are over. India can no longer be "occupied" and I am sure the Chinese are not that stupid.

:rotfl: India's concern with China is not just about occupation. Do read up a bit. ;)
The Sino-Vietnam War-1979: Case Studies in Limited Wars ---- Colonel G.D. Bakshi, VSM
The Teach a Lesson Model
The British military analyst – Maj Gen Shelford Bidwell, has credited the Chinese with enunciating a new form of war. He called this "the teach a lesson model" and stated that the brief Sino-Indian War of 1962 was the world’s first campaign of this genre. This operation was ostensibly designed to teach India a lesson for her perceived support to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan resistance. The border dispute was a pretext conveniently exploited by the Chinese to launch a swift and sudden invasion (that caught the Indians totally by surprise), inflict a humiliating local defeat and then stage a magnanimous unilateral withdrawal that was designed to underline the impotence of the victim nation. It was the same ‘teach a lesson model’ that the Chinese decided to replicate against Vietnam. Unfortunately or otherwise, they ended up learning quite a few military lessons themselves - the first of them being the need to modernise their Army and transit from Peoples’ War doctrine to Peoples’ War under high tech conditions.

The basic doctrinal tenet of this Chinese formulation however remains sound and relevant to this day. The teach a lesson model implies a declaration of intent for limiting the conflict and to that extent, it serves as an inbuilt escalation control mechanism that could permit limited conventional conflict even against a nuclear backdrop. The historical fact is that it worked in the quasi-nuclear backdrop of the Soviet era and prevented a wider escalation of the Sino-Vietnam conflict to a wider war between China and the erstwhile USSR. To that extent the Sino-Vietnam War of 1979 forms a very useful conflict model and constitutes a case study that could yield a harvest of useful and pertinent lessons for our present day context.


A rising China flexes its muscle ---- G. Parthasarathy.
The unresolved border issue serves as a useful tool to keep India on edge and under pressure. China knows that no government in India can agree to its claims on populated areas like Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh and has yet to explain why it reversed the position it took in 2005, when it implicitly acknowledged that while seeking a border settlement, the status of populated areas would not be changed .

Moreover, even though China acknowledged on November 7, 1950 that the “so-called McMahon Line” was the Line of Control in the Eastern Sector and reiterated this on November 21, 1962, Chinese forces increasingly violate the McMahon Line.

One of the greatest failures of China’s Communist Revolution is that despite Han Chinese constituting 91 per cent of the country’s population, the Chinese are paranoid and insecure about their ability to handle 9 per cent of their minority populations in the strategically important Buddhist-dominated Tibetan Autonomous Region and in the Muslim-majority Xinjiang Province, despite bringing in Han settlers to reduce the indigenous populations to a minority.

Tawang is seen as symbolically crucial in Chinese eyes as a centre of Buddhist spiritualism. By laying claim to the whole of Arunachal Pradesh, China seeks to put India on the defensive, diplomatically and militarily. The Prime Minister told his Chinese counterpart in Bangkok that India regards the Dalai Lama as an “honoured guest” and a spiritual leader.

Even as the dialogue with China continues, to maintain peace and tranquillity along our borders India should not buckle under Chinese pressure by reversing its decision on the Dalai Lama’s visit to Tawang. Firmness, together with restraint in rhetoric, and not appeasement, should be the basis for dealing with a growingly jingoistic China.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby harbans » 31 Jan 2010 04:48

Dude, it is this "fabric of India" kool-aid that we need to stop drinking. And I never said give up AP. Nehru got us into this mess exactly because of this.

And your answer is to shunt out His Holiness the Dalai Lama from India to appease the great Power China? Are you out of your mind? India has always welcomed the oppressed and given refuge to them when others have exterminated them. Jews, Parsi's even Bangladeshi's in 71. And you're talking shunting out someone Tibetans consider there revered Holiness because a rogue state illegally occupies Tibet and sends the local culture into a spin? What sort of a peacemaker are you? What are your ethic and value systems? What will India be worth if we do that? Have you any sense of self esteem?

China is powerful. It ain't Burma. India sticking to its guns and not doing a little readjustment because of "moral values" is simply childish arrogance.


And a bully will not stand up to some self adjustment. China may be 'powerful' but it will never be powerful enough to subdue truth. Values may not matter to you personally. It would be OK for people like you without any functional value to defend, to do trade offs with a bully or enemy. But for Indians with an iota of shame that sort of trade off matters.

Yes there are things we cannot do, like physically kicking off the Chinese from Tibet etc. But we cannot compromise on the bullying part. What guarantee do you have that China will lay rest claims to AP, Sikkim, Bhutan stop funding Pakistan if we placate China? None. Once you do, they'll ask for more. Has India not placated China enough?

However if you stand up to the bully he respects you and whimpers. That's how to deal with China. Somdorngchi and 67 should ring a bell. Have you heard or read about it? I have maintained on this forum traitors don't come from a left background necessarily. In history mostly the feudal types made it to the list or the pseudo secular elites with feudal backgrounds and little regards for India's ethos.

And the tragedy of our system is not people like me, it is people like you who live in the world of fantasy (like Gandhi and Nehru) and see things the way they should be instead of the way they are.

No the traitor too thinks by giving away barren land (Bhutan, Sikkim, AP?) and kicking the Dalai Lama he can appease the beast, and do something for the country. Shameful.

Chinmayanand
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2585
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:01
Location: Mansarovar
Contact:

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Chinmayanand » 31 Jan 2010 05:20

peacemaker does not sound like a human name.. :roll:

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 06:32

harbans wrote:Are you out of your mind? India has always welcomed the oppressed and given refuge to them when others have exterminated them. Jews, Parsi's even Bangladeshi's in 71.


Countries are not run by idealists. Gandhian idealism cost us half the country. Nehru's Non Aligned Movement is another example. Consistency in policies is great to have if you can afford them, when you can't it becomes stupidity.

Dalai Lama may be Holy and all but if China is willing to stop backing Pakistan, I think India should offer to curb his political movement for Tibet.

harbans wrote:It would be OK for people like you without any functional value to defend, to do trade offs with a bully or enemy. But for Indians with an iota of shame that sort of trade off matters.


No it does not. If peace with China is at the expense of Dalai Lama's freedom, I say the compromise with "honor and highest moral values" is totally worth it. If you need an example look at the Americans who compromise left, right and center only for money and markets for their companies. For India, the stakes are much higher - our worst enemy (Pakistan) is gaining because of our hostility with China.

harbans wrote:
What guarantee do you have that China will lay rest claims to AP, Sikkim, Bhutan stop funding Pakistan if we placate China?

Of course I have no guarantee. I am not Hu Jintao. But I have a feeling that China would trade its Pakistani lapdog with peace and commerce with India. I have no references or documents or quotes to cite but I think its "common sense" for India and China.

And for the Nth time, I NEVER SAID that we need to hand them AP or Sikkim. But I have a feeling that if we can make a best effort to placate China wrt its territories, the Chinese would act more reasonably.

---------------------------------
Indian foreign policy thinking is very immature. We only see what China is doing to us. We don't see what we have done to them in the past because of our Nehruvian idealism. And in the process we have demonized China.

Of course, the Chinese thinkers are shrewd people who know the Art of War and practice it. Unlike Indian policy makers who are vote hungry semi-educated politicians or just babus who don't know the first thing about strategy or how to wage wars or for that matter prevent them.

vasu_ray
BRFite
Posts: 550
Joined: 30 Nov 2008 01:06

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby vasu_ray » 31 Jan 2010 06:41

peacemaker wrote:We only see what China is doing to us. We don't see what we have done to them in the past because of our Nehruvian idealism. And in the process we have demonized China.


could you explain this a little more how our idealism became their problem? and why hindi-chini bhai bhai slogan didn't work?

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby harbans » 31 Jan 2010 07:00

Of course I have no guarantee. I am not Hu Jintao. But I have a feeling that China would trade its Pakistani lapdog with peace and commerce with India.

So why are you harping on exiling HH the Dalai Lama. Have you even read how he reached India in the 50's?

Why should India seek to follow American morality?

For India, the stakes are much higher - our worst enemy (Pakistan) is gaining because of our hostility with China.


Why will China give up Pakistan after we exile HH Dalai Lama? He is already BTW in exile in India and his political activities curbed if you did'nt know. Unless you are talking the most treacherous thing 'that India hands over HH Dalai Lama to the Chinese'.

If you think India should send HH somewhere else, India is a cowardly nation, unfit and unworthy and possessing no self esteem. If that's what you think India will do, i amongst many will certainly denounce Indian citizenship. You cannot sell India's soul and then say i am doing realpolitik.

And then you say you're no Hu Jintao to guarantee that they will coply in response to your cowardice. I have nothing but contempt for these views, shrewdly hiding behind Nehru and Gandhi's idealistic 'follies'. Ironically it was Hindi CHini Bhai Bhai, recommending China for the UNSC, tolerating brutality in Tibet, ordering entrenched units in Sela to come down, reducing Army expenditure..all measures meant to placate China that got China breathing down Nehru's India. So while you talk against Nehru follies, you are asking us to follow the worst aspects of that. Appeasement of a bully.

pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4128
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby pgbhat » 31 Jan 2010 07:03

This is appeasement being peddled as realpolitik.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby harbans » 31 Jan 2010 07:10

But I have a feeling that China would trade its Pakistani lapdog with peace and commerce with India.

This feeling is wrong. If it has to be prudent about commerce, it will on it's own merit. Why should HH DL be a factor? You are the one talking of repeating Nehru's mistake of appeasement and 'barren land'. Whats your agenda? India's trade with China is booming, obviously with China having a 20 b USD surplus. China has that with every other country. China intends to be a bully. So how much aid it's given to it's lapdog Pakistan? China intends to dominate in the old imperial way. It's a political system in place that see's to that. Pakistan forms a vital cog in the process for China to check India's political and economic rise. HH DL has nothing to do with that and Indians will not forgive any leader who does what you suggest. History will not forgive them. That will be India's most shameful episode for ever..

This is appeasement being peddled as realpolitik.


Precisely. However hope this jerk is not some policy maker sounding reactions on this board.

Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Airavat » 31 Jan 2010 07:34

peacemaker wrote:Countries are not run by idealists. Gandhian idealism cost us half the country.....

Dalai Lama may be Holy and all but if China is willing to stop backing Pakistan, I think India should offer to curb his political movement for Tibet.

But I have a feeling that China would trade its Pakistani lapdog with peace and commerce with India......

But I have a feeling that if we can make a best effort to placate China wrt its territories, the Chinese would act more reasonably.....


Irony of ironies! It is in fact idealists who base decision-making on hopes and feelings. Pragmatic leaders base it on precise data and intelligence. Hence dear Peacemaker, you are an idealist. :mrgreen:

On a serious note, HH Dalai Lama is a useful buffer between the Chinese dictators and the firebrand Tibetan youth who have been uprooted from their homes over the last 50 years. The Dalai Lama is willing to accept Tibet as an autonomous part of China, and opposes violent means to free Tibet. The Tibetan youth on the other hand are more aggressive; removing or retiring the Dalai Lama will unleash the young firebrands and create violence in Tibet and beyond, which will create enormous trouble for the Chicoms.

As for Pakistan, China's links with that country's army are too deep-seated and go beyond the India-China tangle. The only way to break that equation is for India to physically separate the two by liberating POJK.

Klaus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2168
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 12:28
Location: Cicero Avenue

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Klaus » 31 Jan 2010 07:50

The slave mentality does not go away, the British have done their job well, i see.

@ peacemaker, India would be considered a 'banana republic' and a sell-out (even by the West) if it does anything like throwing out HH Dalai Lama. And no, I am not talking in terms of 'saving face' or anything like that. There is something called 'dharma' which has to be upheld.

If the Tibetan cause is lost, then India loses its civilizational identity and basis (along with numerous holy sites such as Kailas and Manasarowar).

In case you didnt know, there is no raising of the white flag option in a game of chess, and a game of chess this is, so there!

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 07:53

harbans wrote:So why are you harping on exiling HH the Dalai Lama.

Like I said earlier, the same reason we want Dawood Ibrahim and Let chief to be handed to India. And like said before, it doesn't matter if Dalai Lama is a God to you, he is a devil to China.

harbans wrote:Why should India seek to follow American morality?

don't follow American morality, follow the path of practical choices that the US makes. There is a reason why they are a super power and there is no shame in learning from the one who has more knowledge and a certificate to prove that.

harbans wrote:If that's what you think India will do, i amongst many will certainly denounce Indian citizenship.

No offense but India is not about you.

harbans wrote:I have nothing but contempt for these views, shrewdly hiding behind Nehru and Gandhi's idealistic 'follies'.

Nehru naivete was in harboring Dalai Lama in his quest to become the apostle of peace and justice. And to top it all, in not being prepared for war. The second part of course is failure to settle the border dispute followed by his school boy appeasement tactics in recommending China for the UNSC and getting nothing in return.

The essence is - Nehru screwed up in dealing with the reality of the day. And today we are doing the same "not dealing with reality".

harbans wrote:Pakistan forms a vital cog in the process for China to check India's political and economic rise.

Airavat wrote:The only way to break that equation is for India to physically separate the two by liberating POJK.

Those to me sound like gay conspiracy theory that Pakistani news media is known for. India China have a lot to gain if they cooperate.

Why would China abandon Pakistan
Because if they don't India is pushed into the arms of the US and India will have no option but to become America's attack dog on China should a situation arise. I bet Chinese already cringe at that prospect and their Pakistan support is as much of a defensive move. China already has US allies Taiwan and Japan on the east, a not so friendly Russia in the north. If I was China, it would make a lot of sense for me to get India on my side or at least not be hostile with it.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Jarita » 31 Jan 2010 08:16

^^^ you don't really understand the concept of Dharma do you?

Let me explain it to you in simple terms - Dharma is what makes the Indian soldier fight to death to prevent the enemy from taking over. The soldier does not capitulate or negotiate with enemy but fights on so that you can spout your adharmic thoughts.
Please read the Param Vir Chakra series to understand what Dharma means.

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/10/31/ ... -chakra-1/

Also, if you can deign to, read something call the Bhagvat Gita. Yes, unfortunately, it is plebian Indian stuff. But it will teach you abouot Dharma.

And because of that Dharma, the Dalai Lama will stay in India.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Jarita » 31 Jan 2010 08:35

appeasemaker may be a business person for whom trade with China is more important than dharma. Met those types too

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21172
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Prem » 31 Jan 2010 08:41

Hi Peacemaker

The fabric of real Indian ,
KING SIBI AND THE PIGEON
http://www.sivanandaonline.org/children ... gsibi.shtm
And we are talking about Dalai Lama is His Holiness who has conquerd his base instincts. Should we send him to Chinese Gulag and pay for the bullet too per Chinese tradition. Going by your "feeling" about Chinese , it is better if Dalai Lama commit suicide in front of Parliament .

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby svinayak » 31 Jan 2010 08:47

Jarita wrote:appeasemaker may be a business person for whom trade with China is more important than dharma. Met those types too

Must be a person who does not believe in Dharma. Must be from some other religion. Those are the only people who hold these kind of views.

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 08:49

Jarita wrote:Dharma is what makes the Indian soldier fight to death to prevent the enemy from taking over.


No, the Indian soldier fights for the Mother Land aka Bharat Mata because that's what his Dharma is.

Unfortunately, the Dharma of a soldier is decided by a politician or a babu. And it would really help the Indian soldier if the Indian foreign policy makers read up a bit on Chanakya.

Jarita wrote:Also, if you can deign to, read something call the Bhagvat Gita. Yes, unfortunately, it is plebian Indian stuff. But it will teach you abouot Dharma.

Bhagvad Gita is a guide to personal conquest. Taking its lessons to a battlefield is like taking the wrong medicine. Chanakya's wisdom is "Don't be upright in your dealings because the upright trees in the forest fall first while the crooked ones survive". Any politician worth his salt has always 'accommodated' when the need arose.

Prem wrote:Hi Peacemaker

The fabric of real Indian ,
KING SIBI AND THE PIGEON
http://www.sivanandaonline.org/children ... gsibi.shtm
And we are talking about Dalai Lama is His Holiness who has conquerd his base instincts. Should we send him to Chinese Gulag and pay for the bullet too per Chinese tradition. Going by your "feeling" about Chinese , it is better if Dalai Lama commit suicide in front of Parliament .

hi Prem. Well it gives me no pleasure to suggest this trade. But then prioritizing is a b!tch and we can't have it all.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Jarita » 31 Jan 2010 08:52

^^^ Guru Tegh Bahadur must be very foolish indeed by your def. He chose to die a very painful death (excessive torture) for what he believed in. What a trade? But hind got a chaddar because of that

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21172
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Prem » 31 Jan 2010 09:03

Jarita,
I was about to give this link about Bhgat Singh to Peacemaker .
http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/research ... oughts.htm
Bahn jina di pakadiye, sar deeje bahn na chhodiaye, Guru Teg Bahadur Boliya, dharti per dharam na chhodiaye"
(If you hold the arm of one, do not let it go even if you have to lose your head.

Peacemaker , i dont think India is so so weak that it cant hold Chinese aggression. Why dont you want Chinese to accomodate Indian concerns if they truly want to be superpower in real term. We can really hurt their chances and push them back few hundred years. This alone is incentive enough for them to put thier Paki puppy to sleep. Only a naive will negotiate with a willy from weaker position.

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 09:13

Jarita wrote:^^^ Guru Tegh Bahadur must be very foolish indeed by your def. He chose to die a very painful death (excessive torture) for what he believed in. What a trade? But hind got a chaddar because of that


Wrong learning from Guru's martyrdom. You are confusing personal sacrifice for a greater cause with sacrificing your countrymen and soldiers for your personal beliefs.

Guys like Nehru and Gandhi suffered at the end of their lives because their foolish beliefs had brought pain and humiliation to their beloved country. They made the wrong choice when it came to 'what is the right thing to do' vs 'what is the best thing for my country'.

Prem wrote:Why dont you want Chinese to accomodate Indian concerns if they truly want to be superpower in real term.

Well of course I do. Just that I am not Chinese so I can't speak to their concerns. But I am Indian and I know a thing or two about Indian sensitivities and thought process. My only suggestion is to set aside our defensive mindset vis-a-via China and engage Chinese towards concrete measures for peace.

To me it sounds more productive than letting China & Pakistan screw us from behind while we go out looking for alliances with the unreliable Americans to start cold war 2.0.

Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Airavat » 31 Jan 2010 09:32

peacemaker wrote:India China have a lot to gain if they cooperate.


Like every idealist Peacemaker is blind to reality. India and China already cooperate on climate change and world trade. They along with Brazil, Russia, South Africa, etc, have a commonality of views on these issues. However they are poles apart in dealing with Pakistani/Islamist terror, border issues, India's status as a nuclear power and India's need for nuclear energy.

peacemaker wrote:Why would China abandon Pakistan
Because if they don't India is pushed into the arms of the US and India will have no option but to become America's attack dog on China should a situation arise......If I was China, it would make a lot of sense for me to get India on my side or at least not be hostile with it.


Sounds like an idealist wet dream :P

A typical idealist reduces complex international relations to childish equations. China+Pakistan=India+US completely forgetting that there is also US+Pakistan and India+Afghanistan. And on climate change it's India+China.

A_Shankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 13
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 05:55

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby A_Shankar » 31 Jan 2010 09:46

Airavat wrote: India and China already cooperate on climate change and world trade. They along with Brazil, Russia, South Africa, etc, have a commonality of views on these issues. However they are poles apart in dealing with Pakistani/Islamist terror, border issues, India's status as a nuclear power and India's need for nuclear energy.


Is it just me or your so called cooperation of India China is limited to fluffy issues while they remain hostile on the fundamental issues that can cause nuclear conflicts??

peacemaker wrote:A typical idealist reduces complex international relations to childish equations. China+Pakistan=India+US completely forgetting that there is also US+Pakistan and India+Afghanistan. And on climate change it's India+China.

I don't know what point you are trying to make if any. But all complex issues start from simple math.

I will take a break, hope to be back :). Will leave you with this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02443.html

Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Airavat » 31 Jan 2010 09:58

peacemaker wrote:Is it just me or your so called cooperation of India China is limited to fluffy issues while they remain hostile on the fundamental issues that can cause nuclear conflicts??


Fundamental issues sounds like Paki speak, and it is indeed Pakis who talk of nuke conflict if fundamental issues are not resolved.

And since when are global trade or saving the environment "fluffy issues"?

peacemaker wrote:But all complex issues start from simple math.


But we are not at the starting point (wherever that may be). You are reducing current complex relations between countries into childish equations.

pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4128
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby pgbhat » 31 Jan 2010 10:04

peacemaker wrote:don't follow American morality, follow the path of practical choices that the US makes. There is a reason why they are a super power and there is no shame in learning from the one who has more knowledge and a certificate to prove that.

Of course there is no shame in learning from Americans or for that matter the Chinese themselves. But opportunistic foreign policy of uncle sam .... 'nuff said. :mrgreen:
I have quoted this from Pratap Bhanu Mehta before and I do so again.
Foreign policy, we know, is not just governed by the cold calculus of interests. It is governed by an amalgam of prejudgments, cultural representations, and ideological constructions.


Is it just me or your so called cooperation of India China is limited to fluffy issues while they remain hostile on the fundamental issues that can cause nuclear conflicts??

There is nothing fluffy about aligning with the Chinese when it comes to climate change. It is very fundamental as it directly impacts our (read China and India) energy security.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby brihaspati » 31 Jan 2010 10:08

Peacemaker,

No why would such concrete "issues" require a nuke-throwing session? If China wants to nuke India because India refuses to give China "cold deserts" what does it say of China? well it says an "irrational" beast of prey - completely gone nuts! Now what makes you so sure that such an irrartional beast of prey is good, and reliable negotiating stuff? If India wants to nuke China, because China is not giving up its demands on "cold deserts", India cannot be rational either in your eyes. Why do you want one or more irrational parties to come to discussion and negotiation?

By your own line, you should not lambast Nehru - for he tried "negotiations" and imagined "Panchsheel" with China, while wryly dismissing away the loss of territories to China after the spectacular success of "Panchsheel" and "Hindi-Chini bhaia bhai" by casually and rationally assessing the importance of virtual cold-deserts where nothing grows - as nil. Same goes for MKG, who had always been for negotiations with the forces that ultimately created TSP.

Jarita
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2466
Joined: 30 Oct 2009 22:27
Location: Andromeda

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Jarita » 31 Jan 2010 10:10

Since Dharma is not important, have you thought about the implications of such moves on how India will be viewed for the next 1000 years by ROW.
Any move India makes will be precedent setting and will create or destroy our perception. And all is important.

Karna_A
BRFite
Posts: 432
Joined: 28 Dec 2008 03:35

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Karna_A » 31 Jan 2010 11:02

Peacemaker,

The gist of your argument is strong and logical.
Pakistan is indeed the worst enemy and India should make some accomodation with China to face the Western threat.
What that accomodation should be is debatable.
Just like how America accomodated with China during Nixon years inspite of fact that China was directly responsile for thousands of American deaths in Korea and Vietnam.

harbans wrote:Of course I have no guarantee. I am not Hu Jintao. But I have a feeling that China would trade its Pakistani lapdog with peace and commerce with India.

So why are you harping on exiling HH the Dalai Lama. Have you even read how he reached India in the 50's?

Why should India seek to follow American morality?

For India, the stakes are much higher - our worst enemy (Pakistan) is gaining because of our hostility with China.


Why will China give up Pakistan after we exile HH Dalai Lama? He is already BTW in exile in India and his political activities curbed if you did'nt know. Unless you are talking the most treacherous thing 'that India hands over HH Dalai Lama to the Chinese'.

If you think India should send HH somewhere else, India is a cowardly nation, unfit and unworthy and possessing no self esteem. If that's what you think India will do, i amongst many will certainly denounce Indian citizenship. You cannot sell India's soul and then say i am doing realpolitik.

And then you say you're no Hu Jintao to guarantee that they will coply in response to your cowardice. I have nothing but contempt for these views, shrewdly hiding behind Nehru and Gandhi's idealistic 'follies'. Ironically it was Hindi CHini Bhai Bhai, recommending China for the UNSC, tolerating brutality in Tibet, ordering entrenched units in Sela to come down, reducing Army expenditure..all measures meant to placate China that got China breathing down Nehru's India. So while you talk against Nehru follies, you are asking us to follow the worst aspects of that. Appeasement of a bully.

Karna_A
BRFite
Posts: 432
Joined: 28 Dec 2008 03:35

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby Karna_A » 31 Jan 2010 11:20

The ROW already thinks India is a soft puppy. When BDR killed 15 of BSF jawans near the Kakripara and all India did was file an FIR was the starting point. Kandahar, Kaluchak, Kargil and 26/11 only reinforced it.
Unless the Indian leaders make Army training compulsory for every citizen like Israel, the soft and weak thinking of general public will continue to be reflected in its leaders.
So India has 2 options:
(a) Make India internally strong with compulsory army training for all specially for all the leaders so Samson option can be embraced. In practical terms it means if Delhi is threatened, so should TSPbad, Beijeeng and Reeyadh.
(b) Or make accomodation with China to take care of TSP threat.
The first option looks unachievable unless a BRF party comes in power!
So the second option has to be thought over.

Without these India will continue to be treated like a softie deserving 3rd row seats like SM Krishna was given in latest Afghanistan conference inspite of doing the maximum and being the best liked country by Afghans.

Jarita wrote:Since Dharma is not important, have you thought about the implications of such moves on how India will be viewed for the next 1000 years by ROW.
Any move India makes will be precedent setting and will create or destroy our perception. And all is important.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby chaanakya » 31 Jan 2010 11:43

HH Dalai Lama may be a devil to you but for Indians he is God, so there is no meeting point of views here. But to compare with Dawood Ibrahim and LeT/JeM shows intellectual bankruptcy of your thought process.

In Realpolitik, he is useful in keeping China on low moral ground. His successor ,coming from Tawang , would prove more potent against Chinese designs. The status of Tibet is disputed and will remain so till it is accepted by the world community. Today China may be in dominating position in Tibet , but things change fast in Realpolitik. So it is in best interest of China to solve its Tibet problem rather than looking for trouble with India, which has a real prospect of bringing Chinese juggernaut to a grinding halt. And yes it is in the interest of USA so if India becomes accessory to USA in so far as China is concerned, so be it, something called convergence of Interest, but then things are not so simple as it seems .

There is a trust deficit in India-china relations, whatever the current bonhomie may be. So China should take first step and withdraw all its claims and perhaps give Maansarovar as a gesture of goodwill and give sovereignty to Tibet then perhaps Indians would recognise China as a real friend . After all these are nothing but barren lands and not having any links to Han ethnicity.Tibetans equally oppose them. Tell us how many of Chinese province would like to separate once commies go, like erstwhile USSR, apart from Uighurs.

So peacemaker , these advises as you give to indians, do peddle them to chinese and let us know their reactions. Lastly , India and China is still at war caused by Chinese aggression of '62. Its official ceasefire only. China keeps meddling with LAC and the real danger is that a small incident may turn into big , causing unintended harm to both.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Could China and India go to war over Tibet?

Postby chaanakya » 31 Jan 2010 12:12

I remembered when I was assigned to one Chinese Professor from Beijing University ( it was better known as Peking University at that time in 1987,though he insisted it as Beijing) during one international conference at DU. I first expressed surprise at his tall height , strapping over 6`. He told they are not small as depicted in popular movies.Talking about India China relations , he told there was groundswell of goodwill among ordinary chinese folks, but same was not reflected in ruling elites and the party in power. Only if democracy is installed , real will of people would be reflected in its policies towards other countries.

So biggest hurdle is the commie ruling elites, which has caused greater development disparities.Though Tienanmen happened subsequently and I don't know what was his fate since I lost touch.

I could think that chinese system is kept in power by PLA unlike India. Their system is inherently unstable without reflecting the will of its people. So India can do only ad-hoc business with them untill proper system is put in place by Chinese truly reflecting their will.

And peacemaker , it is in India you can voice your opinion so freely and debate it, in China things would have been different.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: saip, srin and 44 guests