Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by brihaspati »

Sarma wrote
after extensive reading on the partition issue, I do not believe, as many "historians" and "authors" make out, that any particular event or sequence of events, any particular personality or a group of actors have the power or the force to alter the inexorable march of history. It is only in this sense, and in none other, that one cannot put the onus for partition on Jinnah.
Yes, this is how it appears and the tragic irony of all historians' attempts at understanding who start out trying to unearth the multiplicities who end up being forced to assume a "hidden inexorable hand of history". The problem in trying to go back to the source of each motivation and individual action that adds to collective action we end up in a never ending chain of actions which we can never gather into a coherent logical chain that predicts why a particular event happened the way it did. So in the end it appears as if a hidden hand of history has forced it all to happen. ML could only be ML because Islam was invented by Muhammad and was carried into India. Muhammad invented Islam because either it was really revealed to him as he claims, or that he adopted pre-existing Judaic motifs and memes to pursue personal and group ambitions. Muhammad could not have done this if the Juadic sects had not appeared before in the Levant as well as awhole lot opther circumstantial factors. These could not have happened if the Israelites had not interacted with the Mesopotamian traditions and the Egyptian monotheisms etc...ultimately we will go back to the formation Homo Sapien Sapien..
But there lies the problem. We can only take this chain back because we have skipped vital focus on individuals involved at each stage. Then and only then can we see why an individual's choice from several multiple options open to him channeled events in a partyicular direction. It is by focusing on individuals and how they interact with the collective that we begin to understand why events took a certain direction and not the other. Human choice at critical junctures is critical.
That is to say, it would be some other Abdul in place of Jinnah, if not Jinnah himself. Dr. Ambedkar says it best, and I paraphrase here, in his book Pakistan or Partition: "The demand for Muslim nation is not something new that has arisen in the last few decades (referring to the 1900s). It has always been there as an undercurrent. It first manifested itself as the need to form a separate and parochial organization, namely the Muslim League. Then, the undercurrent took the form of the demand for safeguards. Subsequently, it morphed into reservations in the legislative bodies and the executive. But, this too was insufficient, and hence the demand for effective representation, a euphemism for disproportionate representation for Muslims, i.e. 33.33% when their population was only 23% of the overall population. But, this effective representation too fell short when the Muslim leaders realized that they would still be in minority. Then came the demand for parity, but that too wasn't the final solution that the Muslims were seeking. Only late in the game did it dawn upon them that what they were after, all these years, was a separate state where they can rule the roost."
This again is a highly debatable issue. First simply because other eventlines did not take place. And we have not yet reached the stage in historical sociological analysis where we can predict like in physics say, with a high degree of probability, what the outcome is going to be. This is an old debate and stalwarts exist on both sides of the debate. Eric Hoffer, regarded by some as the non-academic founder of modern academic sociology, writes in his "True Believer" that, without "Lenin", the RSDLP would most likely have gone towards a less radical democratic setup for Russia. Similar controversies about the impact or non-impact of individuals exist in many other cases. The tendency to postulate a blind "inexorable" force of history is common in the Hegelian school, including its derivatives like the Marxists. But even they have been unable to predict outcomes without factoring in role of individual choice.

"It has always been there as an undercurrent." - Is that so? By the arguments of "inexorable forces of history", there must have been a force behind this "undercurrent" that predated the undercurrent? So individual Muslims had no choice in shaping and starting this undercurrent - or even in stopping it? This seems to go against everything that JLN writes about Islam in general and Islam in India. For JLN, Islam's separatist tendencies of a separate "religious homeland" could not be true - he attributes all the barabarity to particular ethnic and race culture, all use of Islam to promote identity as being sourced form ethnic past and motivated by non-religious drives. Amalendu Misra summarizes this imagination of JLN - "Nehru engaged himself in imagining the coming of Islam to India through its original followers - the Arabs. the hatred against Islam in the Indian psyche and the denigration of Afghan and Slave rule, Nehru conceded was because Islam did not come India 'proper'. By proper he meant Islam in its original undiluted form" (Misra, Identity and Religion: foundations of anti-Islamism in India, p121). JLN actually speculates that if the original Arab culture had come with early Islam the rising Ara culture would have intermixed with previous Indian culture and enriched each other. There goes the "inexorable force of history" - for here is acknowledgement of choice.

I provided the above historical context so that we can all stop blaming Nehru ji, and Gandhiji and all the "Congresswallahs" for partition. Believe me, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Knickerwallah and Kamalwallah. But, after a careful reading of the original sources to the extent possible, I've realized that blaming our own leaders Nehru and Gandhi for the partition is the worst thing we can do as Indians. These people have served our nation to the best of their capabilities selflessly and tirelessly. The most cliched and uninformed thing we can say about Nehru, in particular, is that he wanted to become the PM, and his career ambition came in the way of settling with Jinnah. An emphatic No. Only a shallow and superficial reader of history can reach this conclusion.
JLN had started his reconstruction of Islam as a religion in the Indic sense, and diassociated all barbarity from the faith, much earlier than 1937. Moreover he tried to strip off all claims of a separate identity for Muslims in India at the same time. Here however, at one go JLN does an impossible conjuring trick. While he wants to deny the political and the military component of Islam, and ascribes a higher, "purer", culturally advanced origin for Arabic Islam he is elevating Islam to the status of a competing culture to the Indic but not of Indic origin. But at the same time by denying the nationhood of Islam he contradicts this very same separate and equal or high cultural status compared to the Indic. Liaqat Ali reacts "The Muslims are a nation and not a community. It would be a travesty to dismiss 90 million people with a glorious past as a community."

He among all the other Congressites, is instrumental in promoting the absurd theoretical dichotomy of making the Islamic a high culture equal or competing to the Indic but of non-Indic origin, while seeking to deny the natural fallout of such a status in the aspiration for a separate nationhood - creates all the memes and excuses for ML to flourish. Nehrus writings and his practice itself reveal a deliberate and conscious pretension in his attitudes towards the Islamic.

On the one hand he ignores all reality of Islamic rule, sometimes omits passages or claims from narrative sources that conradicts his construction programme. He portrays Islamic taking of Hindu wives as a sign of syncretism - but remains silent on the lack of reciprocation from the Hindu side. On the other, he demands that Muslims relinquish their notions of attachment to Arabia.

It is actually a simplistic portrayal to say that JLN was patriotic and nationalistic in all his motives in a "secular" "non-communal" sense. Only considerations of power based on Hindu imagery of plurality and the consciousness of identification with the Hindu, could have made JLN viciously attack the aspirations of a high culture for self-assertion - a culture which by his own construction had no inherent violent expansive tendencies.

JLN was doing a JS in his reconstrucion of the "Muslim" - he did not unfortunately yet have a Jinnah to focus on. They both have done it for the same purpose, to make use of a reconstructed Islamic identity that can be safely slotted into a power structure that they wish to impose. After acknowledging such high culture and non-violent non-expansive core for Islam, there was no reason to be scared of allowing the ML to have its pound of flesh in the 37 elections - and only one factor explains the fear, a clear recognition that the ML has the power to disrupt weilding of power by the Congress, and in the dynastic milieu of north Indian networks, it meant personal power.
John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by John Snow »

narayanan wrote:131 posts, 155 :(( . Has anyone read the book yet? :rotfl: :rotfl:
Ha N guru, isnt "Kanji Vellam" not enough to tell about the rice (cooked)? :mrgreen: Hindi गांजी ganji telugu
(is not गांजी ganji enough to tell you about the rice?)

What ever little we know, and shri Jasoo Mithaiwala uvacha on his kriti, we can say what raga (kadana Khuthuhalm) his kriti is set to dont we.

Reaction has been in Andolika ragam as expected and BJP now considers him Sankarabhranam ( ie a snake around its neck)

Meanwhile for folks on BRF it is all the way Kapi ragam ( copy ragam, or coffeee/chai ragam, Kapi in karnatic and Chai actually misra kapi in Hindustani music)
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by svinayak »

Check the BBC psy ops

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters ... innah.html
Listen to Mr Jinnah before the formation of Pakistan, raising the spectre of Hindu majoritaranism: "We Muslims have got everything - brains, intelligence, capacity and courage- virtues that nations must possess. But two things are lacking, and I want you to concentrate your attention on these. One thing is that foreign domination from without and Hindu domination here, particularly on our economic life that has caused a certain degeneration of these virtues in us."

Or listen to him after a meeting with Egyptian and Palestinian Arab leaders in 1946: "I told them of the danger that a Hindu empire would represent for the Middle-East ... If a Hindu empire is achieved, it will mean the end of Islam in India, and even in other Muslim countries."
Look at the fascinating vision of Jinnah talking about the middle east and rest of the muslims of the world. This kind of fear is what the Pakis use when they talk to the ME arabs and try to get money and support from them.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by shiv »

If you take Sarma's post and Surinder's post as both being correct - it only shows why the issue is contentious.

In my view these discussions and such dissection is necessary to come to terms with history.

I am sure the the issue of "Nehru's ambition" and "Gandhi's ambition" again can have two views:
1) Yes they were ambitious and pushed through an egregious compromise with disastrous consequences at the last minute
2) Given that they had devoted their lives to mobilizing India and creating ferment, they found a weak Britain after World War 2 and decided to go for the kill and get the self rule that Indians had not got for centuries. The compromise was inevitable given the three three forces acting.

History is history and a dissection will reveal the weaknesses and disagreements of all parties. But it is moot whether "things could have been different"

In fact going through Nirad Chaudhuris view of things - he is fairly critical of Gandhi and his tactics and believes that Gandhi created needless ferment although it was clear (to him) even from the 1920s that Indian independence was inevitable.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by brihaspati »

Even for looking forward, a proper burial or satkar is needed. With the deliberate policy of censorship and erasure followed from 1948, we have not faced history. Without facing it can you bury it? Well we can guarantee that Indian side and the non-Muslim side forgets it by coming down heavily on all such memories. But India does not control Pakistan - it has no control over how Pakistan perpetuates its memories of victories, lording it over Hindustan, and Partition and all its ravages as Ghazwa to be celebrated. Given the pious declarations, India is not in hurry either to do anything that helps to do the same erasure on the TSP side. So while we will forget it thanks to forward-looking and Nehruvism, TSP - whose protection and continuance appears to be a responsibility of the GOI, will continue to regenerate its national memory of winning the battle over the infidel Hindus and doing all the right things by the Kaffir during the Partition - all such acts to be proud of in the true spirit of Jihad.

The same blindness that constructs complete piety and pacifism in a theology and then exclaims "oh we didnt know they could be so vicious" in the weeks of Partition, will again succeed in removing any memory that prepares the non-Muslim what in reality to expect from the theology. So no effort or national will develops to clear off the source of repeatations of partition-riots forever. So jihad can go on in perpetuity, and the sadism can repeat endlessly.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59808
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by ramana »

Exactly whether by intention or otherwise Jaswant Singhji has reopened a 'closed' chapter and a needed catharisis of the evils of Partition is happening. BTW, log time ago I said there is Punjabi in all of us and people wonder what I am alluding to. Well the evil or nightmare of Partition is in all of us whether we acknowledge it or not. What it did was cut us of from our ancestral lands for ever. And that has to be reversed eventually.
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by munna »

The partition was a signal event in the history of Eastern and Western flanks of India. Punjab defied the diktats of Nehru-Gandhi combine by unleashing the same fury but with more vehemence on the opposing belligerent. We all as inheritors of the legacy of Ranhit Singh and Nawab Kapur Singh (not literal) cannot bear to consider the current boundaries of Indian Punjab as the final ones, we shall again rise from our ashes to bring back what was ours! India and Punjab shall have its flag from Ropar to Khyber. For reopening the sealed chapter of our partition and doing a col. soosai act against the grain of Indian historical discourse Jassooji deserves full credit.
John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by John Snow »

So in conclusion

Ganghi ji was a wimp.
Nehru the Raas( as in hindi) put in.
Jinnah the villian
Patel no Bismarck or Loha Purush who is kadak but Taamra purush who is Malleable
Edwina Mount (battered) is celestial Urvasi.
Mount batterd the threatened Indra ( as in puranas)
Pakistanis the Lost tribe ( still loosers)
Hindus the cunning SDREs (like devas in puranas)
Jassoo the Hero
Lkg the zero


Khani Khatam, please send the cost of the book to Kargil Jawans funds.
Thank you
Dhanyavaad
Jai Hind.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Prem »

Thanks to JS, long wanted National debate might happen on on JInnah, Nehru,Islamic ideology behind partition , secular blindness of Indian government and the dark side of PSs and the truth may come out unleashing the righteous energy of sons of soil. Kahani will be khatam when for every one life taken gets avenged with thousand of them.For this we should never forget but not consumed by it. lets serve the sweet revenge cold and Kadva.
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by surinder »

Prem, Ramanna, Munna, Samuel, Sarma, Brihaspati: you all have made some great and touching points. I feel the pain and hurt in your posts. Ramanna, I like the "eich bein Punjabi" (or to be exact: "Main bhi Punjabi haaN") spirit.

I want to propose something here: We should have a full thread on Partition. Brihaspati has made some astoundingly shocking posts on the mystery surrounding partition; they should be preserved. They are scattered in many threads (2 on JS, 2 on leadership & future). They should be consolidated. Prem, Munna, Samuel & myself & others have many stories & impressions on partition. Ultimately the discusssion has been less about JS, or his book, but more on Partition.

The thread can be called "Partition, the Indian Holocaust" (because that is what it is. The death toll from it is yet to finalized because more deaths will occur in future. Maybe even a nuclear war. Mankind has not seen a more devastating division, and perhaps will not see in future. We should not keep a silence, like Urvashi Butalia alleges we do.)

(I know there is a thread on the story of TSP creation; I hope it is evident that I am asking for a fundamentally different thread.)
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Philip »

I've spent several hours last night reading the book.Here are my first impressions of it.I do not find any overt attempt to turn Jinnah heroic.He is rightly criticised for his attitude where neccessary.JS has attempted however to look at Partition and events and personalities leading up to it from a neutral perspective and tries to see events especially from the perspective of Jinnah.

My views and comments are given with an asterisk (*).I always spell "Partition" with a capital "P",because to us it is India's equivalent of the "Holocaust" of WW2.
Part 1 deals with the key British characters who ruled India at the end,Wavell and Mountbatten and back in London,Churchill.

Part 1:

The crucial dates for the decision were the 14th and 15th of June 1947,when the AICC met ,with all the tallest leaders of the freedom struggle to discuss the "Mountbatten Plan for Partition".We see here immediately the true architect of Partition,or rather the executioner,the butcher of Blighty,sent out to dismember India at the whim and fancy of the master strategists of "perfidious Albion".

Mountbatten's predecessor,Field Marshal Wavell,was a man who spent many years in India,loved India and its people,was sensitive to it and was a soldier through and through.He never had the approval of London,especially from Churchill,who "hated India".Wavell recommended that a speedy withdrawal of the British from India would result in chaos and wanted instead a more gradual withdrawal.His strong stand on the issue led to his dismissal and Lord Mountbatten was sent out instead.

Wavell's last report to his king is a masterpiece.
"Our power in India has always depended upon prestige rather than on numbers and it is the decline in our prestige rather than the lack of numbers that has reduced our control in India to its present state of something approaching impotence.The damage done to our prestige was done in the First World War and in the years that followed it.In this last war it has of course still ruder shocks by our loss of Singapore and of Burma,and our subsequent recaptue of it did little to re-establish it."

"Politically,the Cripps Mission in 1942 marked a stage in our retrocession from power which it was never possible to retrace.Our repression of the 1942 Rebellion showed that our prestige and power were still high,where we chose to still exercise them....It seems remarkable to me how even at this present time,when our power has been so greatly reduced,the momentum of our prestige still enables us to influence events to the extent that we do."
Wavell's farewell specch had these last words for India,"coming from my heart".

"You have hard dangerous and difficult years ahead,but you will overcome them.I have always believed in the future of India.I thank you and wish you good fortune.Goodbye and may the world go well with you."

* This last sentence shows that the British still had the power to decisively influence events (to suit their grand strategy) and did so through Mountbatten.

Mountbatten's war record was one of unmitigated disaster wherever he served.According to Field Marshal Lord Allenbrooke,Churchill's Chief of Imperial General Staff during WW2,has made some keen observations about him.Captain of the Kelly and during 18 months in command...
,"he almost capsized,collided with another destroyer,was mined once,torpedoed twice,and finally sunk by enemy aircraft....His time as Chief of Combined Operations was marred by the woeful disaster of the Dieppe raid of which he must shoulder some of the blame.."
Zeigler,Mountbatten's admiring biographer,painted this picture of him.
"His faults were on the grandest scale,.His vanity,though child-like was monstrous.His ambition unbridled.The truth in his hands was swiftly converted from what it was to what it should have been.He sought to rewrite history with cavalier indifference to the facts to magnify his own achievements.."
*With such an ability to bend the truth,Mountbatten's version of events leading to Partition must therefore be taken with a bagful of salt,especially his view of Jinnah's intractability.This conversation with Churchill on May 27th 1947 is very illuminating.

It starts with Churchill asking if Nehru has accepted "Dominion " status if power was "transferred this year".
Mountbatten:
I replied in the affirmative and added that I had given a copy to the PM.I pointed out that I had been unable to get a written copy from Mr.Jinnah.(To which) Churchill expressed great surprise."By God",he said, "he is the one man who cannot do without British help".
When asked how he should proceed if Jinnah was intransigent,Churchill after some reflection said,
To begin with you must threaten.Take away all British officers.Give them military units without British officers.Make it clear to them how impossible it would be to run Pakistan without British help".
*From this it is also clear that the British had plans to "run Pakistan" through their military men and that right from independence,Pakistan would be a "client state",a "rent boy" which it still is today! Churchill's ba*tardry had little equal in the world of realpolitik!

There is an interesting story of Nehru being reportedly so struck wwith Mountbatten's authority,that he asked him if he had been given "plenipotentiary powers",to decide on his own what best course to take.Mountbatten replied,"what difference would it make?",Nehru then said that he "would succeed where all others failed".But Mountbatten had no such powers and actually "submitted to London his draft plan,flying there to modify it and present his case."

*Therefore,Mountbatten was acting on British orders and his showmanship was required to dupe Indian leaders into accepting Partition which had already been decided by the British.

Part 2 will deal with Mountbatten's manipulation of the Indian leaders and the views on Partition of all the top leaders at the crucial AICC meet.

PS:From the above it can clearly be seen hat though British "prestige" had diminished in the aftermath of two wars,it still had the power to influence events in India whichever way it wanted.Field Marshal Lord Wavell wanted a more graudal departure,but "London" instead,wanted a rapid one,whereby the principal charctares in the Indian freedom struggle would be given a "fait accompli".Lord Mountbatten was given strict orders to "butcher" India by a rapid transfer of power to two states India and Pakistan.One of his main tasks was to also see that they remained "dominions" of the British Crown.
Last edited by Philip on 22 Aug 2009 15:18, edited 3 times in total.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Abhi_G »

Philip,

your comments about Wavell and his love for India is a bit surprising for me. The impression that I have got from Sarila's book is that Wavell was singularly responsible for propping up Jinnah. Actually, the idea of having a part of the Indian subcontinent as a military base against Soviets had been in picture for quite sometime. INC was ambiguous in its stand in WW2, whether or not to help the brits, although that did not affect the recruitment of forces for the Indian army. Jinnah was unequivocal about support for the brits in WW2 under the promise of a part of India for IMs that he could let the brits use after their withdrawl. So Wavell found Jinnah pretty handy in this situation - as a force against INC as well as a pawn to play the great game against Soviets. History would turn out in that way after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent jihad from pakistani territory under support from unkil.

Linlithgow had his fair share of propping up Jinnah before Wavell. While Linlithgow had an impression that the brits would stay in India for a far more time, Wavell was more pragmatic, maybe from his debacle as a commander of the british forces that were retreating under Japanese attacks from Singapore. He knew very well that they had to eject, but having a strategic base in India, more precisely in the northwestern parts of current Pak were clear to him and also in the minds of his bosses in London, be it Churchill or Atlee. Wavell had already made maps for the partition much before Mountbatten, that are in Sarila's book. In fact Atlee also was one of the key players who did a masterstroke, of using the "charming" Moutbatten to create a situation, where partition of India would be seen as an action by Indian leaders themselves and not britain. So in public, brits would espouse Indian unity while behind the scenes, they would make sure that future strategic interests in the Indian subcontinent is preserved in the form of pakistan.
Last edited by Abhi_G on 22 Aug 2009 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
faraz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 63
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 04:29

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by faraz »

Moderators:

It is good to have a discussion on Partition here in this Topic. But, can we have another thread especially for Partition.

I am sure it will be a hot topic for years to come.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17169
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Rahul M »

faraz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 63
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 04:29

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by faraz »

Rahul M ji, Thank you very much for the answer.

Can we move some of the posts to that thread ? Isn't it the right time to wield you 'Danda' :D ?
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by RayC »

faraz wrote:Rahul M ji, Thank you very much for the answer.

Can we move some of the posts to that thread ? Isn't it the right time to wield you 'Danda' :D ?
That is what upsets me.

Why the 'danda'.

Can we not appeal for good sense and people are equally understandable?

Why do we only require a 'danda'?

Are we that obtuse?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59808
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by ramana »

He means baton of authroity to move the posts.

The danda can be also be seens as the "mantra danda" (what gave authority to the mantris) of the moderators.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59808
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by ramana »

X-posted...
SSridhar wrote:Jinnah was a secular man: Jaswant
Former Indian External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh has said that Muhammad Ali Jinnah was a secular man, and that he had initially opposed the division of Bengal and Punjab.
Now, JS is making two points, among the several, to Ejaz Haider. Not having seen the interview or even the transcripts, I am not sure if the above are being quoted out of context. Just going by the two points alone, several questions must be raised in the minds of the Pakistanis.

It is my understanding that Jinnah displayed a Dr. Jekyll-and-Mr. Hyde kind of split personality. There are many instances where this quality shone through. For example, even while severely opposing the separate electorate for Muslims, he had no compunction in standing for elections through one such reserved constituency and winning handsomely. Even after condemning Gandhi for his dangerous pan-Islamist pampering through the Khilafat movement, he indulged in just the same after the return from his self-imposed 'exile' from London. Etc. etc. Leave them as they are. Can Pakistanis take any solace from the above two points emphasized by JS ?

Being secular is considered an anathema in Pakistan. The term 'secular' is somehow associated with 'atheism' in the Land of the Believers and the Purest. That is a deliberately misleading twist given to religiously gullible Pakistanis (which is practically the whole country) by the Establishment. That was why a self-proclaimed 'secular socialist' like ZA Bhutto had to beat a hasty retreat when the ulema ganged up against him and he was forced to announce all those Islam-pasand regulations. Pakistanis, like Ejaz Haider or his boss Najam Sethi, cannot derive satisfaction that they have extracted from JS, belonging to a hardline Hindu party, something that will be a 'cognitive dissonance' for Indians as far as Jinnah went. More than any 'cognitive dissonance' for Indians, will the Pakistanis accept that their tallest leader, the Quaid, was a secular person ? Mawdudi, whose creed have spread thick and fast among the nooks and corners of Pakistan displacing the relatively more secular and ubiquitous Sufi order, condemned the Congress party for its 'secular' platform. Let's remember that the clergy called Allama Iqbal as kafir and Mawdudi himself termed the Quaid as 'Kafir-e-Azam'. Mawdudi considered 'idol-worshipping democracy' or 'secularism' as far more pernicious than the Imperial rule by the British who were after all part of 'Ahl-e-Kitab'. Will today's Pakistan, which is far more fundamentalist and even extremist than in the 1970s, take kindly when Jinnah is described as a secular person ?

Pakistan today may proffer all kinds of reasons for its creation, such as the frustration of educated Muslims, Gandhi's use of Hindu symbols in the freedom fight etc. But, both Jinnah (and his Muslim League by extension) and Mawdudi (and the clergy by extension) invoked the Muslim symbols and slogans and the fear of Islam being swamped because they were not for the power to pass into 'secular (read, godless)' INC from the British. That was why Mawdudi, for long, was unable to accept a 'nominal Muslim' like Jinnah as leader even though he was better than 'secular' Congress leadership. Now, if a hardline Hindu suddenly accepts Jinnah as a secular person, and the Pakistanis welcome it and gloat over it, that is 'cognitive dissonance' for common-folk Abduls of Pakistan.

Secondly, the division of Bengal and Punjab. Bengal was divided in c. 1906 when Jinnah was deeply enamoured of the INC and especially leaders like Gokhale et al. As I posted earlier, he opposed separate electorate for Muslims, Khilafat and the Muslim League party itself until the Mr. Hyde part came into the open in mid-30s. He fully believed that the end justified the means and was willing to clutch at any tactical line thrown at him so long it had no conflict with his own personal agenda of what he wanted in the end. He was willing to be flexible, and unafraid of looking inconsistent. Therefore his Dr. Jekyll part cannot be seen in isolation and in fact it is the Mr. Hyde part should be how Jinnah should be characterized because it is the most evil streak that detremines how good a person is.
Awesome SSridhargaru.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by RayC »

ramana wrote:He means baton of authroity to move the posts.

The danda can be also be seens as the "mantra danda" (what gave authority to the mantris) of the moderators.
Danda is a crude way to control.

Knowledge is better and more powerful!

You are well versed in history and I wonder if anyone is better than you.

My request is handle this thread with your vast knowledge and enthusiasm so that we learn.

I have much to learn on Partition and to be frank, in the interactions of late, I was surprised that I knew so little since I had to research for links for what I knew as hearsay and which would have not been believed!

Please handle this thread well with you vast knowledge and let us learn beyond the petty parochial visions!

We, as Indian, have suffered and we must learn from our suffering, even if the majority of us were not directly affected.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote: That was why Mawdudi, for long, was unable to accept a 'nominal Muslim' like Jinnah as leader even though he was better than 'secular' Congress leadership. Now, if a hardline Hindu suddenly accepts Jinnah as a secular person, and the Pakistanis welcome it and gloat over it, that is 'cognitive dissonance' for common-folk Abduls of Pakistan.
There is deep desire for the Paki RAPE after 60 years to be recognized and their role model Quaid to be accepted by anybody. Any Indian group which would have accepted them was sufficient for them.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by svinayak »

Abhi_G wrote:
your comments about Wavell and his love for India is a bit surprising for me.
Indians should never mistake the British. They will always love India but want India under the dominion status and geo-politically favorable to them.

In fact Atlee also was one of the key players who did a masterstroke, of using the "charming" Moutbatten to create a situation, where partition of India would be seen as an action by Indian leaders themselves and not britain. So in public, brits would espouse Indian unity while behind the scenes, they would make sure that future strategic interests in the Indian subcontinent is preserved in the form of Pakistan.
This is the most important message from JS book if it is highlighted and should be understood by the Indians.
All the this blaming INC, Nehru and Gandhi was futile and the anger at Gandhi and his assasination was falsely directed by the cunning colonial British leaders.
Last edited by svinayak on 23 Aug 2009 01:42, edited 1 time in total.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7113
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Muppalla »

I do not know if this post is relevant to thread. It is slightly political.

A welcome release from politics

MJ Akbar

Has the BJP lost the plot or has a plot lost the BJP? Curiously, both might have happened, though successively, rather than simultaneously.

The BJP missed the central point of this year’s general election. Its miscalculations began after the terrorist attack on Mumbai in November last year, when it misread the impact the carnage had upon people. Every section of India may have wanted Pakistan punished for that outrage, but that did not translate into an excuse for confrontations within India. A decisive section of the electorate did not want Indian Muslims punished for what some Pakistani Muslims had done. Obviously, the Indian Muslim voter did not want to be tried for a crime he had not committed and so mobilised against a BJP which began to get more strident by the month. But a decisive section of youth had no appetite for the politics of conflict creation; it wants conflict elimination, or at least conflict resolution.

The BJP, judging by the promotion of Mr Narendra Modi as a future Prime Minister and Mr Varun Gandhi as a rising superstar, was still investing in conflict, not resolution. That switched enough seats to leave the BJP far short of its intended tally. The Congress, abetted by some amazing foolishness on the part of the Third Front, went far ahead of its expected numbers.

It is a rare leader, and an even rarer party, that can avoid rebellion in decline and defeat. This of course is only true of parliamentary democracy. In a presidential system the leader swims until he sinks; there are no real mid-term gasps for breath. Britain’s Gordon Brown was showered with adulation in his first three months; got carried away; turned too-clever-by-half; and has faced nothing but rebellion and disdain ever since. Indian party politics is far more stable than its British mother-version.

Rebels come in three categories after a defeat. There are those who believe that their political careers are over, and therefore there is nothing much to lose. Age could be a reason, or simply the accident of personal proximity to the defeated leader. Who remembers a Congress politician called Bhubanesh Chaturvedi? The political class barely knew who he was when PV Narasimha Rao made him one of the most powerful men in Delhi. The meteor disappeared into a black hole the instant Narasimha Rao was defeated. But the BJP is also passing through a generational transition. It is not just Mr LK Advani who will not contest the next general election; his peers will be too old as well. Since he has not been able to ensure that his peers spend their last years in politics in ministerial offices, they can risk the frisson of some controversy. I imagine Mr Murli Manohar Joshi might discover he has a few things to say if all the temptations that could keep him silent and patient get exhausted by December.

The second reason is less subtle. There are rebels who are, in effect, cheerleaders of an alternative leader. This is normal politics, and you can hardly grudge such activity. Those who feel they have been sidelined by any leadership will exploit the opportunity offered by change. It is obvious that some of those who were unhappy with loss, vented their spleen on Mr Advani.

Mr Jaswant Singh’s detractors (whose numbers must have multiplied since his expulsion; that is the culture of Delhi) will put both reasons in the charge-sheet against him, but they will be wrong. Obviously, he would have preferred to spend this term as MP in high office, rather than in a publisher’s office. But the reason he published his book on Jinnah was passion, not ideology. He is a liberal of the old school, and proud of both, liberalism and the old school. Values and honour mean much more to him than a mere dictionary can convey.

Pakistan is both physically and emotionally close to him, and the many contradictions of partition have affected him deeply, as they have so many others. He has relatives in Pakistan. The ruling clan of Umarkot, in whose custody the Emperor Akbar was born, is his kin. He has spent many years, in the silence of his impressive library, examining the depth, trajectory and implications of his roots. He may not have admitted it, but in his personal scheme of things books overtook politics as his principal priority. The evolution may even have been unconscious, for one does not measure change on a periodic basis.

Jinnah was an obvious attraction, for he wanted to know how myth had overtaken facts in Pakistan, and demonology had diminished Jinnah in India. It is not possible to invest many years of one’s life in a biography without being fascinated by the subject. On a few occasions, this fascination is akin to being entranced by the venomous power of a snake, as Hitler’s biographers were. But Mr Jaswant Singh discovered, as many others have done, that Jinnah was in the hero-mould, and deserved admiration despite his mistakes, no matter how awesomely expensive those mistakes proved to be.

In his personal preferences, Jinnah was a liberal-intellectual that a fellow liberal-intellectual could empathise with. It may not be entirely accidental that Jinnah’s Indian grandson is a friend of Mr Jaswant Singh. Any biographer fond of his subject will give him the benefit of any doubt, and the road to freedom in 1947 was cluttered with doubt, misdirection, accidents and betrayal as much as it was resplendent with vision, courage and sacrifice.

Mr Jaswant Singh did not set out to change his party through his book. Neither did he expect his party to change him because of this book. He thought he had served his party with honesty and commitment; and the party would show the grace to give him his space as an author. It did not. Perhaps it could not. You could not survive in the Shiv Sena after claiming that Shivaji had any flaw. And life would not be happy in the Congress if you carped against Nehru. Politics needs its certainties even when those certainties are historically uncertain. Politicians are wary of books, because they are aware that knowledge can be injurious to their health.


The world of books welcomes Mr Jaswant Singh’s release from politics.
hasmukh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 19
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 21:27

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by hasmukh »

Kicked out editor sympthasing with kicked out politician.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59808
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by ramana »

There are many spin meisters out there trying to spin their way out of oblivion. I think we should approach the facts from where ever they come and be as Krishna says "stitiha pragna" and let as Mundaka Upanishad says "Satyameva Jayate".

We need to learn a lot about what happened so we can be more resolute in our Indianness and not be led astray by tempters.

(Note I didn't say Lord Krishna fro to me he is personal god and such being the case I do not need to be overly reverent to him.)
enqyoob
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 06 Jul 2008 20:25

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by enqyoob »

I think I'll go back to the LMU - this place is getting distinctly Holy. :shock: :eek:
Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Sanjay M »

Let's look at the latest spin from the TOI-let paper:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opi ... 924248.cms
For decades, Congress and BJP have jointly nurtured the myth that Britain teamed up with Jinnah to impose Partition on India, to institutionalise divide-and-rule even after leaving. No, says Jaswant Singh in his new book. Partition was largely due to Nehru and Sardar Patel, who insisted on a centralised India and vetoed the loose federation favoured by Jinnah.

The BJP has expelled Jaswant, and, outrageously, banned his book in Gujarat...
OMG, we've been living a lie! To hear Swami Aiyar tell it, partition was totally our fault! Just like Pakistan becoming an Islamic Republic under a military dictatorship was also our fault! And Baluchistan is our fault too! And the greatest threat to Pakistani democracy comes from activist lawyers beating up the policemen over there.

What a crock of lies. What a lousy little rat this guy is.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32423
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by chetak »

May be OT but is there a connection?

Shades of a not so secret manchurian candidate :-o

' Key Advani aide Sudheendra Kulkarni quits BJP’
Talking to a TV channel, Kulkarni said his decision had nothing to do with Jaswant Singh's expulsion. "I have ideological differences with BJP," he said. "BJP is going through a drift," he said.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/pol ... 04190.html


Red flags to saffron scarves - what next for Sudheendra Kulkarni
June 12th, 2009


New Delhi, June 12 (IANS)He was once a diehard Communist preaching against Hindu communalism and then key advisor to the BJP top brass strategising on policy and plans. Now, as he finds himself at the centre of a raging storm in the party and questions its Hindutva ideology, Sudheendra Kulkarni’s friends wonder if he is reinventing himself one more time.
The 58-year-old IIT graduate-journalist-political backroom boy, who was close to former prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and played a vital role in L.K. Advani’s prime ministerial campaign in the 2009 general election, has created a flutter in the usually regimented BJP with his criticism of the party’s leadership and its ideological fountainhead, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS).

No wonder, he has come under attack from within the BJP, with sections of the party questioning how a former crusader of the Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M), the BJP’s sworn foe, has come to wield so much clout.

The otherwise communicative Kulkarni politely declined to speak to IANS about the latest controversy surrounding him, flowing from his advice that the BJP cannot be wedded to a hardline Hindutva ideology.

Writing in the Tehelka magazine, he urged the party to introspect on its humiliating defeat and said: “The RSS needs it no less. Its leaders must ask themselves, and answer the question honestly and earnestly. Why is the acceptability of the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad limited in Hindu society itself?”

He said the party “did nothing” while its allies started moving away because of the 2002 communal violence in Gujarat that left over 1,100 people, mostly Muslims, dead.

He also said the RSS did not back Advani in a way that Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi backed Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

His opinions were denounced by the party leadership, including Advani who distanced himself from it.

From Left to Right, from Marx to Hindutva, Kulkarni has indeed come a long way.

Kulkarni’s former friends remember him as a former committed Communist who saw salvation in Karl Marx.

CPI-M members say Kulkarni began as an activist of the Students Federation of India (SFI), the CPI-M student wing, before joining the party.

While in the CPI-M, Kulkarni even visited Moscow, when it was capital of the former Soviet Union.

“We were all shocked at his conversion from Marx to (Lord) Ram, but no longer so,” says a former friend with whom Kulkarni used to paste stickers in Mumbai’s suburban trains promoting secular values.

“Probably he is reinventing himself all over again,” the friend added.

A 1980 graduate from the Indian Institute of Technology, Mumbai, Kulkarni helped build several anti-communalism campaigns.

A founder-member of Journalists Against Communalism, Kulkarni and his former friends, journalist Javed Anand and peace activist Teesta Setalvad, used to put up anti-RSS and pro-secularism posters in Mumbai. Kulkarni then worked for The Sunday Observer in Mumbai.

“I remember one Sunday when we carried 10,000 posters and pasted them in every compartment of the trains,” recalled Javed Anand. “Sudheen was very much a part of it.”

This was before Teesta Setalvad formed the group Sabrang, which later played a key role in rehabilitating victims of the 2002 communal riots in Gujarat.

By then, Kulkarni had travelled in the opposite direction, attracted by the increasing appeal in the early 1990s of the Hindutva ideology.

Once he joined the BJP, Kulkarni impressed everyone with his hard work and commitment. And he soon found himself close to the party’s ideological star, Advani.

In 1998, he became a director in the Prime Minister’s Office when Vajpayee was prime minister. He was named BJP national secretary in 2004, and later became secretary to Advani.

This is not the first time Kulkarni has courted controversy.

In 2005, he accompanied Advani on the latter’s first visit to Pakistan where he called Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the country’s founder, a secularist -comments that angered the party and the RSS no end.

Kulkarni was blamed for this and he even offered to resign. Even then, sources close to him say, he maintained that “there should be a delink of the BJP from RSS”.

Journalist Mayank Chhaya, who was Kulkarni’s contemporary in Mumbai when the latter worked for Blitz, told IANS: “His attraction to BJP could be because both (BJP and Left) have a regimental ideology and structure. But he was never a hardline Hindutva person. He is a thinking rightwinger.”

“You could also call him a ‘closet liberal,’ a city-bred BJP man,” Chhaya said. “But I don’t think he was driven by the BJP’s hardline ideology and would not mind re-inventing himself. He could well join the Congress.”
faraz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 63
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 04:29

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by faraz »

Journalist Mayank Chhaya, who was Kulkarni’s contemporary in Mumbai when the latter worked for Blitz, told IANS: “His attraction to BJP could be because both (BJP and Left) have a regimental ideology and structure. But he was never a hardline Hindutva person. He is a thinking rightwinger.”
Both Hamas and Likud has regimented ideology. Then Ariel Sharon should join Hamas. Or else, how about Stalin migrating to the USA or the UK.

Sudheendra Kulkarni is either confused or an opportunist
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4001
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by vera_k »

I can't tell if this is from the book or Meghnad Desai's own independent research.

Ghosts that haunt India
Liaqat Ali Khan as Finance Member moved a budget with severe taxation of profits quoting Nehru’s fiery socialist speeches in defence. The Congress was outraged. The interim government was paralysed in acrimony.

It was at this point that with Mountbatten as the new Viceroy, the idea came to the Congress leaders that they would not be able to share power with the Muslim League. Gandhiji’s romantic suggestion that Jinnah be made Prime Minister was too shocking for Mountbatten for him to put to Patel and Nehru. Patel by this time—mid April 1947—was convinced that Partition was the easier way out. Then Mountbatten convinced Nehru. By June 3, 1947, Partition had been accepted by both the Congress and the League.
rohiths
BRFite
Posts: 404
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 21:51

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by rohiths »

People can split hair on whether Jinnah was a secularist, pragmatist, great leader etc etc
People can continuously argue and think what exactly happened during 1945-47.
From my point of view
JINNAH DIVIDED INDIA AND CREATED THE TERRORIST STATE OF PAKISTAN.
Anyone who loves India can never praise such a person period.

It does not matter what kind of a person Jinnah was, what he believed, what happened etc.
The end result is what matters. There is a state on India's borders that exists whose sole purpose is the destruction of India and Hinduism. That is what Jinnah created. No one can deny that he was not the father of pakistan
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by RajeshA »

rohiths wrote:No one can deny that he {Jinnah} was not the father of pakistan
Sometimes you father someone else's child.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32423
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by chetak »

rohiths wrote:People can split hair on whether Jinnah was a secularist, pragmatist, great leader etc etc
People can continuously argue and think what exactly happened during 1945-47.
From my point of view
JINNAH DIVIDED INDIA AND CREATED THE TERRORIST STATE OF PAKISTAN.
Anyone who loves India can never praise such a person period.

It does not matter what kind of a person Jinnah was, what he believed, what happened etc.
The end result is what matters. There is a state on India's borders that exists whose sole purpose is the destruction of India and Hinduism. That is what Jinnah created. No one can deny that he was not the father of pakistan


The malevolent state and it's tubercular creator have both troubled and reviled the ethos of the Indians.

“The evil that men do lives after them, The good is oft interred with their bones.”

If there was ever any good in this case, even the frenzied researches of moronic BJP leaders have failed to unearth it.

rohiths is very right. The end result is what matters.

Focus on the eye and forget the rest of the diversionary sideshow put out by the commies and the isi sleepers that seems to have lulled the somnolent Indians into an even deeper slumber.

Maybe the best to hope for is a speedy and untimely but well deserved demise of our unlamented neighbor.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Sanku »

Okay I read the first 100 pages

Some first reactions

0) There is nothing in that book so far which has not already been discussed by Ramana, Achayara and Brihspati
1) 90% of those claiming that JS said this or that in the book or praised Jinaah are talking through their hat.
2) Islamism DOES not get a clean chit of health.

The book reminds me of the Sholay episode where AB goes to ask for Hema Malini's hand from Aunt for Veeru...

He describes Veeru as "He has XYZ... faults, but he is a good guy only"

The above description can be aptly used for both Islam and Jinaah's role in the book.

---------------------

Oh and for the book? I got my copy from my book shop that I had reserved it at, and it was the only copy left. 4 other book shops next to each other had sold out their copies in the first few days itself and the book is hard to get now.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote: JLN was doing a JS in his reconstrucion of the "Muslim" - he did not unfortunately yet have a Jinnah to focus on. They both have done it for the same purpose, to make use of a reconstructed Islamic identity that can be safely slotted into a power structure that they wish to impose.
Brihaspati Ji, you should read the book, none of the charges that you hold against JS's book are remotely true.

He starts the discussion of Partition from Raja Dahir of Sindh and how he stopped Bin Quasims entrance. He asks -- why is the Muslim invasion called the muslim invasion but the British and the Spanish Colonisalism not called the Christism invasions when they were clearly similarly motivated by faith.

He explores the rise of deoband and Barelawi and how 1857 destroyed the Persio-Islam with its refinements and created a new system where the Ashraf mentality of the Persio-Islam married with with the old Hardline muslim behavior to create a potent brew.

He talks how it was the Maratha's who destroyed the Mughals...

He talks how foolish it is for Muslims to claim that there is a muslim nation when they have many more divisions than the Hindu society.

He talks how the Brits realized that post 1857 the Muslims joined the rebellion LATER, when they hopped on the bandwagon to try and get back to the past or that vehicle and then used the existing fault lines to keep the Hindu India down (he claims 1857 was planned and spearheaded by High caste hindu's)

In the fist hundred pages he is still talking of Syed Ahmad Khan and the Aligarh movement and how Ashrafs moved their loyalties to the British as a move to gain from British without changing the core ideology.

He says the Indic root is core and the reason for separateness of Muslims is that they have refused to integrate them selves to a VEDIC CORE and prefer to seem themselves as different.

Of course he is sugar coating some of these pills in heavy language but it is a book extremely harsh of the Islam's presence in India.

The book in its first 100 pages is a masterstroke.
sunnyP
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 16:52

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by sunnyP »

Thanks,

It's good to hear from someone who has actually read the book.

Looking forward to further updates.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25099
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by SSridhar »

I am posting here excerpts from an article written in a neighbourhood newspaper in Chennai.
Jaswant Singh's sudden enlightenment on the bloodiest chapter in Bharat's history and his misplaced exoneration as well as eulogising of Jinnah may seem as just historical nitpicking at best and a typical publisher's ploy to push and peddle his book at worst. But, it reflects a deeper malaise: If even the Advanis and the Jaswants with their known ideological baggage are eager to de-demonise and indeed 'angelise' the likes of Jinnah, is there not something wrong with the nation's genetics ?

A word of caution: Gandhi, Nehru, Patel and Jinnah were great individuals who gave their all for public causes at immense personal risk. For that very reason, they cannot also escape the scrutiny of the retrospect vis-a-vis their methods, motives and mistakes. . . .

In fact, a year before, in 1946, he conducted a dress rehearsal of the deadly drama in the offing. His call for Direct Action is dubbed a watershed for the impending bloodshed: the violence unleashed on unsuspecting Hindus on and from Aug. 16, the Direct Action Day, particularly in Calcutta, which became a 'city of the dead', the resultant Hindu backlash in Bihar, and the spread of communal flame to other provinces burned up all hopes of a united India, in keeping with Jinnah's script. With a rank communal call of 'Islam in Danger', Jinnah inaugurated the jihad against India that haunts us till date. His Muslim league described the Direct Action as "the holy war against the enemies of the Muslim Nation". "We are no believers in ahimsa", the league leaders proclaimed and Jinnah himself said, "I will not discuss ethics", when quizzed about the violence. . . . With such origins, is it surprising that Pak is the epicentre of global jihadi terror today ?

. . . But, Jinnah will continue to haunt, not on account of the jihadis he had unleashed for perpetuity. Every terror attack, every communal riot, every appeasement gimmick, everyday in Kashmir . . . would bring to fore the birth pangs of partition. Over to the address of Acharya Kripalani, the then Congress President at the the 1946 AICC session in Meerut: "Had Jinnah's scheme envisaged a total and wholesale transfer of populations and the concentration of all the Muslims in (undivided) India in one compact territory (Pakistan) so that no Hindu, Sikh, Christian or Parsi is left in the Muslim state and no Muslim left anywhere in India, the scheme might at least have the merit of being a logical solution to the problem, however costly, tragic and inhuman it might be to carry out. If the Muslim League claims Pakistan on religious and communal grounds, let it face all implications and not try to eat the cake and yet have it". Ambedkar even argued that Jinnah's Pakistan was futile because the Muslims who were most desperate for separation actually stayed back in Bharat !

Author: T.R. Jawahar
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by harbans »

The pain of partition is a one way street. Pakistan does not feel it one bit. They were the perperators and the reason is clear:

1. The popular slogan in Pakistan..."Has ke liya Pakistan..lad ke lenge..."

2. They are still hankering for partition via meddling in Kashmir.

3. They are actively working and looking forward to another partition of India. Consequences be damned.

The above article posted by Sridharji also proves it:
Jinnah inaugurated the jihad against India that haunts us till date. His Muslim league described the Direct Action as "the holy war against the enemies of the Muslim Nation". "We are no believers in ahimsa", the league leaders proclaimed and Jinnah himself said, "I will not discuss ethics",
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Sanku »

SSridhar wrote:If even the Advanis and the Jaswants with their known ideological baggage are eager to de-demonise and indeed 'angelise' the likes of Jinnah, is there not something wrong with the nation's genetics ?
Sigh...... JS is not de-demonizing Jinaah, he is actually chronicling how the power of Islamism shaped a good man into the monster.

In India for too long people have naively attempted to lay the blame of partition on Jinaah and call it quits or at most extend it to Nehru (JS says that he finds the convenient lets make Nehru the scape goat trifle naive) this is a brave attempt to look at the whole picture and go beyond the person.
Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Re: Discussion on Jaswant Singh's book on Jinnah

Post by Sanjay M »

Jinnah was a communal egoist, to be sure. But Pakistan wasn't created due to the defects of one person. The fact is that the entire Muslim community are to blame, because their attitude is "what's mine is mine, what's yours we share"

This myth of the "tolerant, pluralistic Islam facing pressure from monolithic, homogenous Hindus" is absolute garbage.
Post Reply