A look back at the partition

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Prem
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Prem »

Book on penultimate viceroy in India launched

Ganga Din lives
KARACHI: A book titled ‘Wavell and the Dying Days of the Raj — Britain’s Penultimate Viceroy in India’ by Dr Muhammad Iqbal Chawla was launched at the library of the Pakistan Study Centre, the University of Karachi, on Friday.
Dr Chawla, who teaches history at Punjab University, said while Dr Ahmed’s point about the socioeconomic factors was valid, he’d been studying Lord Wavell for the past 20 years. He explained that there were studies aplenty on leaders such as Mr Gandhi and Mr Jinnah therefore he had thought he should inquire the role of British viceroys. He remarked though Churchill had tried to use Lord Wavell as the nightwatchman, Wavell turned out to be a thinking being and tried to settle disputes between Hindus and Muslims. He said much had been written on Mountbatten and Linlithgow, and there was scope to inquire about Wavell. There was a research gap and Wavell had not been studied by prominent historians.
On the second question, Dr Chawla answered that when the British were leaving India, the Cold War had just begun. The US was putting pressure on Britain to grant independence to India. British economy had become so weak that it couldn’t afford to remain in power in India, which was why they left Sri Lanka despite the fact that there was no resistance.Responding to a question asked by a member of the audience, Dr Chawla emphasised that the British did not make or engineer Pakistan. It was the power of vote that resulted in its creation.In response to yet another query, he argued the Cripps Mission had failed because the Congress wanted, among other things, to have control over the defence aspect of the country, which the British couldn’t allow because a World War was on.Prof Shariful Mujahid was the last speaker of the event. He commended Dr Chawla for his work and commented it was a result of painstaking research and analytical vigour. “He has filled an important gap in our historic narrative.” He asked, if a plethora of books on Mr Jinnah could be written in India, why couldn’t books on Mr Gandhi be penned in Pakistan? On the issue of the votes cast in the 1945-46 general election, he said it was a unanimous verdict.Highlighting the importance of the book, Prof Mujahid said all the major events in Indian constitutional history took place in the four years when Lord Wavell was viceroy (1943-47). Wavell wanted to do justice to Muslims and Mr Jinnah. Lord Mountbatten followed up on whatever had happened before him, he added.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by A_Gupta »

Any help on this event (pointers to more original sources, etc.) from January 1915, would be most appreciated. Please read the material and see if the conclusions the historians have come to are warranted.

http://thepartitionofindia.blogspot.com ... story.html
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

^^If we subtract Jinnah's opening lines about "unity" - it will look as if MKG was being insensitive, or not diplomatic enough. In that sense, the critical approach of the two does appear to be unwarranted and unfair.

Tactically speaking, was MKG making a blunder - even if he was only responding to Jinnah's pointed barb about "unity"? I think he was. He should have avoided responding to the question of "unity", but emphasize the need for nationalism where all other identity claims should take secondary roles.

The aggressive ideological pre-emptive strike should have been to try and make any subidentity claims as equivalent to betrayal of the nation and those who made so should have been painted as traitors. Given MKG's rhetoric at that stage, such strong words would be unexpected and unlikely.

But it should perhaps been avoided in response to Jinnah. In a way, if Jinnah was playing foul - MKG fell into the trap of accepting Jinnah's so-called "distinct" categories.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

MKG cannot be accused of personal cowardice. I find it unjustifiable about the alleged hint about French front. MKG had faced ambulance duties in SA. He survived. Even where I suspect him to have avoided steps that might have endangered his personal life - there is insufficient evidence for me to rule out the possibility that he took such decisions for the sake of larger politicl objectives : he felt it was necessary for him survive to fight another day, and had specific political visions at the time of such decisions. [One gets the hint of such possible plans by his consequent or follow-up actions].
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Those days there were no antibiotics etc. So MKG with pleursiy going to the front ot nurse wounded soldeirs would have been counter-productive.
Wolpert is another Raj warrior from US.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

X-Post....
jamwal wrote:THE PAKISTAN ARMY IN EAST PAKISTAN-1971 WAR
UNDERSTANDING THE 1971 CRISIS

COMMENTS ON BOOK REVIEW OF AHMAD FARUQUI ON GENERAL NIAZIS BOOK
PUBLISHED DEFENCE JOURNAL KARACHI JUNE 2000
BY

MAJOR AGHA H AMIN (RETIRED)

http://indopakmilitaryhistory.blogspot. ... istan.html


Bengal did not become independent because of Bengali Hindu fears about being in a Muslim majority independent Bengal. Thus the connection with “Two Nation Theory” was not the reason why Bengal was divided in 1947. Mr Jinnah saw in 1946 i.e the inadvisability of having Bengal in Pakistan without Calcutta. Something that the Pakistani policy makers failed to grasp till 1971! It is to Jinnah’s credit that he brought Bengalis in the army by raising the first two battalions of the East Bengal regiment. A process, which was stopped by Ayub from 1950 to 1966, as a result of which Pakistan Army instead of becoming a broad based national army like the post 1947 Indian Army, remained, a Punjabi dominated army. A factor which contributed a great deal to the separation of East Pakistan. The Two Nation Theory was created due to certain reasons which at that time were valid albeit relatively. It did not exist in 711 AD or in 1857 but was enunciated in the period 1860-1940. In 1971 it was no longer valid at least for the Bengali Muslims and they rejected it.
My second contention pertains to the author’s quoting a Pakistani General stating that “Never before had a Muslim army surrendered before a Hindu army or the assertion that the Pakistan Army was a bearer of traditions of the early Muslim conquerors of India! This assertion is absolutely false ! The problem is that we have to get out of this “Martial Races Syndrome”. The vast bulk of Pakistan army consists of men with Hindu or Buddhist ancestry! As a matter of fact the Hindu Rajputs of the north of Chenab area from where the vast bulk of Pakistan army is recruited were far more difficult to govern before they were converted to Islam!

The only positive connection that these races had with the Muslim Turks was the fact that one of their members killed Sultan Ghauri! Even the Pathans, the second largest group of Pakistani soldiers, had little connection with Turkish invasions of India! Babar did not like the Pathans and the Pathans generally remained in conflict with the Muslim governments in Delhi! Many Muslim forts surrendered to the Hindu Marathas during the Maratha war in the south. The Marathas captured Delhi long before 1971 in mid -18th century and held it with uneven gaps till 1803 once the British captured it. As a matter of fact the problem is that most of our worthy generals have not read military history of the sub-continent. The Pakistan Army is not the descendant of the Turk armies that invaded India! Of course with the exceptions of some genuinely Mughal villages like Lehr Sultanpur etc! The Pakistan Army is a chip from the block of the old mercenary British army with its origins in the “Mutiny Loyalty of Punjabi Muslim Pathan and Sikh soldiers” who attacked Delhi for the first time in September 1857 and in phenomenal staunchness of Punjabi soldiers while facing the Muslim Turks in WW One! The Punjabis once totalled as Muslim Hindu and Sikh, as an ethnic group became the largest single group and the vast bulk of the British Indian Army in the period 1883-1911.

The only positive connection that these races had with the Muslim Turks was the fact that one of their members killed Sultan Ghauri! Even the Pathans, the second largest group of Pakistani soldiers, had little connection with Turkish invasions of India! Babar did not like the Pathans and the Pathans generally remained in conflict with the Muslim governments in Delhi! Many Muslim forts surrendered to the Hindu Marathas during the Maratha war in the south. The Marathas captured Delhi long before 1971 in mid -18th century and held it with uneven gaps till 1803 once the British captured it. As a matter of fact the problem is that most of our worthy generals have not read military history of the sub-continent. The Pakistan Army is not the descendant of the Turk armies that invaded India! Of course with the exceptions of some genuinely Mughal villages like Lehr Sultanpur etc! The Pakistan Army is a chip from the block of the old mercenary British army with its origins in the “Mutiny Loyalty of Punjabi Muslim Pathan and Sikh soldiers” who attacked Delhi for the first time in September 1857 and in phenomenal staunchness of Punjabi soldiers while facing the Muslim Turks in WW One! The Punjabis once totalled as Muslim Hindu and Sikh, as an ethnic group became the largest single group and the vast bulk of the British Indian Army in the period 1883-1911.


In 1883 there were about 34.09 % or 120 Punjabi companies (25 Punjabi Muslims, 18 Punjabi Dogra Hindus and 77 Punjabi Sikhs) and 15 Pathan companies out of the total 352 infantry companies of the Regular Bengal Army. By 1911 the Indian Army was a more than 50 % Punjabi army although never a Muslim majority army. In 1929 thanks to Pathan and Ranghar defiance of the British in WW One the Punjabi percentage (divided into roughly one third Muslim Sikh and Hindu) of the Indian Army rose to 54.36% if the Gurkhas were included and to 61.8 % if Gurkhas were excluded. The Pathan share at this time stood at 4.02 % out of which all were not ethnic or linguistic Pathans. (Refers- Map on page-96 - Report of Indian Statutory Commission-Volume One- Calcutta - Government of India - Publication Branch - 1930). The low caste Hindu Marathas militarily defeated the Mughals long before 1971 and their hold on India was finally successfully challenged not by any Punjabi or Pathan Muslim army but by the Bengal and Madras armies of the English East India Companies at Laswari and Assaye respectively in 1803!

The problem is that we have forgotten that all territory west of Aligarh district (including Aligarh), including Delhi Agra Punjab and Frontier was under Hindu Maratha or non-Muslim Sikh rule till 1803 or as late as 1849!

There were no martial races in Muslim majority Punjab, at least to rule Punjab till 1849! So much for the martial traditions of Muslims of Indo-Pak! It was all situational, there being no martial races! But somehow in Pakistan by 1950s myth became mixed with reality and myth finally gained the upper hand ! The winter of our discontent finally came in the killing fields of Bengal in December 1971!
Punjab later dubbed as a martial province with a Muslim majority was firmly under Sikh domination despite the fact that the Sikhs were a 8 or 9 % minority! During Sikh rule mosques were often used as military magazines, including the famous Badshahi mosque and some times plastered with cow dung (Pages -347 to 360— “Lahore -Past and Present” - M.Baqir, Punjabi Adabi Academy, Lahore—1984)as happened with the Golden Mosque of Kashmiri Bazaar Lahore ! So much for the martial traditions, just 122 years ago, of the largely Punjabi Muslim army that surrendered in East Pakistan! The problem ironically was the fact that the same West Pakistanis, who despised Bengalis as non-Martial race in March 1971, at least were not as martial in 1849, as they became in 1914, because of British recruitment policies and situational reasons!



This blog, even it's written by a Paki ex-serviceman is worth every minute spent
:rotfl:

Read it all
Aditya_V
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Aditya_V »

brihaspati wrote:MKG cannot be accused of personal cowardice. I find it unjustifiable about the alleged hint about French front. MKG had faced ambulance duties in SA. He survived. Even where I suspect him to have avoided steps that might have endangered his personal life - there is insufficient evidence for me to rule out the possibility that he took such decisions for the sake of larger politicl objectives : he felt it was necessary for him survive to fight another day, and had specific political visions at the time of such decisions. [One gets the hint of such possible plans by his consequent or follow-up actions].
Why did not INC leader including MKG go to Karchi, Lahore of Dhaka, when violence erupted and preach peace. MKG states Hindus should not fight but present themselves to be killed, why didn't he along with Nehru and other Congress leaders Practice what they preached.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

MKG was killed when he was ready to got to Lahore.
There are many news reports of how JLN was in the thick of crowds trying to stop the violence.
By that time those cities were already in foreign land.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by devesh »

Gandhi should be accused of believing one's own coolaid. in American terms, "falling for your own BS".

we have lot to learn from Gandhi. we can copy some of his rhetoric as external face. but if we start believing it, we'll face the consequences.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Non-Violence is a tool or a weapon for a context: particular time, place and world situation. To use it blindly all the time like Nehru and his cohort did is like the carpenter with a hammer who thinks every fastener is a nail.

Lal Bahadur Shastri dropped it when he ordered the Indian Army across the International borders to attack Lahore in 1965.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Bear with me a bit.

First the link:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1339710

The relevant quote:
In earlier times, Muslim preachers insisted that democracy was not consistent with Islam. They denounced it. The great change in the past two years is that Imams, encouraged by Turkey's Prime Minister Erdogan, have come to understand that democracy may be rationalized with ultra-conservative Islam as a pathway to a caliphate, by choice of the voters.

To paraphrase Erdogan, democracy is a station stop, not a political end-state in itself. Even conservative Imams now seem to understand Erdogan's wisdom.

Islamists, Salafists and the Muslim Brotherhood are using elections to advance their objective of creating Islamic governments in the Arab Spring states. Islamic monarchies will be the next targets after the Islamic democracies consolidate power, provided they can. After that, Israel is the target.
In Indian sub-continent the first act was the 1916 Lucknow pact brokered by Jinnah. This enabled separate electorates and proportional representation. It effectively eliminated INC from Muslim majority areas and led to the Partition.
The gist of the pact was INC withdraws opposition to separate electorates. In Muslim majority areas, the Muslims will not seek dominance and allow minority candidates. In same manner in Hindu majority areas the Hindus will not seek to dominate and will allow more seats than the population numbers usggest for Muslims. The ML went on to get Pakisatan but those old electoral rules are still there in India!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Aditya_V wrote:
brihaspati wrote:MKG cannot be accused of personal cowardice. I find it unjustifiable about the alleged hint about French front. MKG had faced ambulance duties in SA. He survived. Even where I suspect him to have avoided steps that might have endangered his personal life - there is insufficient evidence for me to rule out the possibility that he took such decisions for the sake of larger politicl objectives : he felt it was necessary for him survive to fight another day, and had specific political visions at the time of such decisions. [One gets the hint of such possible plans by his consequent or follow-up actions].
Why did not INC leader including MKG go to Karchi, Lahore of Dhaka, when violence erupted and preach peace. MKG states Hindus should not fight but present themselves to be killed, why didn't he along with Nehru and other Congress leaders Practice what they preached.
That was not cowardice - as I said, that was tactical move. The end points of trouble on both sides of the GV - that gave so much trouble initially to the Brits, and for which the Guj-UP lobby was lllowed to come up, had to be tarumatized and politically broken, especially the Hindu and Sikh militancy had to be broken to make any future UP based imperial dynasty feel safe in power. Had MKG not played the game - he would have been assassinated probably long before he was actually.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Prem »

brihaspati wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Why did not INC leader including MKG go to Karchi, Lahore of Dhaka, when violence erupted and preach peace. MKG states Hindus should not fight but present themselves to be killed, why didn't he along with Nehru and other Congress leaders Practice what they preached.
That was not cowardice - as I said, that was tactical move. The end points of trouble on both sides of the GV - that gave so much trouble initially to the Brits, and for which the Guj-UP lobby was lllowed to come up, had to be tarumatized and politically broken, especially the Hindu and Sikh militancy had to be broken to make any future UP based imperial dynasty feel safe in power. Had MKG not played the game - he would have been assassinated probably long before he was actually.
+7200
First attempt on Gandhi was done by Pahwa.

Exclusive
'I Regret I Wasn't The Man To Kill Gandhi'
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?204997
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by A_Gupta »

ramana wrote: In Indian sub-continent the first act was the 1916 Lucknow pact brokered by Jinnah. This enabled separate electorates and proportional representation. It effectively eliminated INC from Muslim majority areas and led to the Partition.
Right, and this no doubt was the fault of Gandhi, Nehru and Nehru. Kind of before their time, but since we are into villifying Gandhi, let's blame him for it anyway.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Virupaksha »

A_Gupta wrote:
ramana wrote: In Indian sub-continent the first act was the 1916 Lucknow pact brokered by Jinnah. This enabled separate electorates and proportional representation. It effectively eliminated INC from Muslim majority areas and led to the Partition.
Right, and this no doubt was the fault of Gandhi, Nehru and Nehru. Kind of before their time, but since we are into villifying Gandhi, let's blame him for it anyway.
Without agreeing or disagreeing with your statement, Gandhi came back in 1914-15. Both Jawahar Nehru and Gandhi were in congress by this pacts time and infact the initiation of that pact started in Nehru (Motilal) house.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Its not about vilifying Gandhi. Everyone here knows I have a lot of respect for him. So take it easy.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by nakul »

I have seen that a lot of westerners believe British were kind and gracious for not killing Gandhi. They don't know that Gandhi was shrewd enough to make a case where keeping him alive was seen as a better option. The British did kill a lot others when they considered them a threat.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

The problem is that typically when we describe a historical event we often forget to write about all the persons involved, and all the relevant reactions or steps. What we leave out may reveal a lot more about ourselves than the historical event itself.

The Lucknow Pact did not happen in a vacuum. Jinnah went for the pact - true, but who were the most keen ones to sign on from the INC side? The pre-Lucknow pact period of INC history was an all out fight between the so-called moderates and so-called extremists. These terms have been invented by later hagiographers with a particular purpose.

Instead based on what they actually stood for a better term pair is collaborationist versus anti-collaborantionist. Gokhale represented the see-saw of the collaborationist side [interested people can look at the fight that broke out in the 1907 Calcutta session of the congrez] versus the anti-collaborationist Lal-Bal-Pal side.

The result of this 1907 fight was that the Brits came down heavily on the anti-collaborationist side - Tilak sent off for 7 years, Pal broken, Rai broken. The Brits however did nothing to physically or otherwise harm the collaborationist side. The over-enthusiasts will probably try to use my above sentence to claim that I imply that the collaborationists were in cahoots with the Brits. That is not what is implied by my statement - just a fact on the ground that the Brits treated sections of political opposition way too leniently than they did others.

Pal remained adamantly opposed to what resulted in the Lucknow Pact. In a way, it was the collaborationist dominance of congrez scene after the Brit cleanup of anti-collaborationists that went for the pact. People should be able to look up who went into the meeting, its connections to the parallel Lucknow congress session, who was there the first day of the meeting and who left the meeting - so that another set of individuals sat on the second day and agreed to the "Pact".
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Virupaksha »

At the precise moment of the pact, Gokhale (the then public face of collaborators) had died. Tilak (who was kicked out and leader and part of lal-bal-pal non-collaborator triad) had just rejoined Congress. In this fight, Gandhi tried to balance off both sides but it was clear that his sympathies were with collaborators.

The balance of power as shown by Congress presidents (if they are not dummies like how Gandhi made later) at that time was with the collaborators, The president in 1915 was Lord Baron Sinha (one of the authors of 1919 reforms against which Jalianwala Bagh took place) and 1916, east bengal zamindar, Ambica Charan Mazumdar. It was not until around 1919 that the overt collaborators were sidelined from prominence. It wasnt until 1929 that overt collaboration became at least semi non-grata in congress.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

After the 'purna swaraj' was declared the overt collaborators were sidelined from prominence.
Many collaborators did not want Purna swaraj. The modern version of these collaborators right now want to continue the same thing
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Virupaksha »

Did Gandhi rise precisely for this reason - the compromise between overt collaborators and non-collaborators, i.e. neutral outsider. A person who is from outside and who had a history of both opposing and collaborating with the British.

What role did the Gadar conspiracy play - which was at its peak at precisely this moment?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Virupaksha wrote: [...]
The balance of power as shown by Congress presidents (if they are not dummies like how Gandhi made later) at that time was with the collaborators, The president in 1915 was Lord Baron Sinha (one of the authors of 1919 reforms against which Jalianwala Bagh took place) and 1916, east bengal zamindar, Ambica Charan Mazumdar. It was not until around 1919 that the overt collaborators were sidelined from prominence. It wasnt until 1929 that overt collaboration became at least semi non-grata in congress.
Baron Sinha was a member of the Sadharan Brahmo Samaaj and close to the Thakur family.

As for MKG, we shoud forever remember the immortal arguments in favour of contextual violence - as long as it helps the empire : (this was 22nd June, 1918)
The Government at present wants half a million men for the army. They will certainly succeed in raising this number somehow. If we supply this number, the credit will be ours, we will be rendering a service and the reports that we often hear of improper methods adopted by recruiting agents will become things of the past. It is no small thing to have the whole work of recruiting in our hands. If the Government have no trust in us, if their intentions are not pure, they would not recruitment through us. The foregoing argument will show that by enlisting in the army we help the Empire, we qualify ourselves for swaraj, we learn to defend India and to a certain extent regain our lost manhood.

I admit it is because of my faith in the British people that I can advise as I am doing. I believe that, though this nation has done India much harm, it is to our advantage to retain connection with it. Their virtues seem to me to outweigh their vices. It is painful to remain in subjection to that nation. The British have the great vice of depriving a subject nation of its self-respect, but they have also the virtue of treating their equals with due respect and of loyalty towards them. We have seen that they have many times helped those groaning under the tyranny of others. As their partners, there is much we can receive and much that we can give and our connection with them based on that relationship is likely to benefit the world. If such was not my faith and if I thought it desirable to become absolutely independent of that nation, I would not only not advise co-operation but would on the contrary ask the people to beware, advising them to rebel, and paying the penalty for doing so. We are not in a position today to stand on our own feet unaided and alone. I believe that our good lies in becoming and remaining equal partners in the Empire and I have seen it throughout India that all those who demand swaraj are of the same view. I expect from Kheda and Gujarat not 500 or 700 recruits but thousands. If Gujarat wants to save herself from the reproach of effeminacy, she should be prepared to contribute thousands of sepoys. These must include the educated classes, the Patidars, the Dharalas, the Vagharis and I hope they all will fight side by side as comrades. Unless the educated classes or the elite of the community take the lead, it is idle to expect the other classes to come forward. I hope those among the educated classes who are above the prescribed age but who are able-bodied will be eligible to enlist themselves. Their services will be utilized, if not for actual fighting, for related purposes and for looking after the welfare of the sepoys. I hope also that those who have grown-up sons will not hesitate to send them as recruits. To sacrifice sons in the war ought to be a cause not of pain but of pleasure to brave men. Sacrifice of sons at this hour will be a sacrifice for swaraj.
To the women, my request is that they should not be alarmed by this appeal but should welcome it. It contains the key to their protection and their honour.

There are 600 villages in Kheda district. Every village has on an average a population of over 1,000. If every village gave at least twenty men, Kheda district would be able to raise an army of 12,000 men. The population of the whole district is seven lakhs and this number will then work out at 1.7 per cent, a rate which is lower than the death rate. If we are not prepared to make even this sacrifice for the Empire, for the sake of swaraj, no wonder that we should be regarded unworthy of it. If every village gives at least twenty men, on their return from the war they will be the living bulwarks of their village. If they fall on the battle-field, they will immortalize themselves, their village and their country, and twenty fresh men will follow their example and offer themselves for national defence.

If we mean to do this, we have no time to lose. I desire that the fittest and the strongest in every village should be selected and their names forwarded. I ask this of you, brothers and sisters. To explain things to you and to answer the many questions that may be raised, meetings will be held in important villages. Volunteers will also go round.
It summarizes almost all of the key self-justifications used in congrez thinking of the period to bolster elements of collaboration. Note that similar justifications about the violence/bravey/sacrifice of life etc woud not be applicable to Indians if they applied violence against the Brits.

Subsequently this line would never again be so strongly expressed openly. In the WWII case, the formal resignation from ministries, was done on the logic that the VR had declared India's partcipation in the war without consulting the congrez and its legislative representatives - not because war was immoral/non-violent.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Bji, Gandhiji might also have seen the opportunity the WWI presented to re-martialize the village populations after the severe restrictions to join the British Indian Army after 1857
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Virupaksha »

ramana wrote:Bji, Gandhiji might also have seen the opportunity the WWI presented to re-martialize the village populations after the severe restrictions to join the British Indian Army after 1857
With that logic, would he have closed down an entire national movement for an incident like Chaura Chouri?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

ramana wrote:Bji, Gandhiji might also have seen the opportunity the WWI presented to re-martialize the village populations after the severe restrictions to join the British Indian Army after 1857
The question is - why deprecate all other attempts at martialization? Understanding the context of congrez refusal officially to participate in the British war effort in WWII [there is a theory that the resignation was a political step to solve the impossible pressure by the congrez left in upper GV over working class movements and the rich guyz club who were keen to supply for war and profit], most other cases of "violence" seems to have been condemned on ideological/moral grounds. It seems also to be a remarkable coincidence that all such condemnations appear also when the violence was directed at the British.

Bose was thoroughly condemned by MKG for having taken the wrong "method" of fighting the Brits.

This again is a remarkable coincidence in MKG's approval of violence in favour of British empire but not against it -and the observable paranoia in the Brits against appearing to have been militarily thrashed anywhere. It could have been astute political sense in MKG [that was blind onlee in certain directions like choosing successors and over Islamism] that he wanted to avoid arousing the paranoid reaction of the British fearing military defeat.

But then again, what would be so wrong if the Brits suffered a catastrophic military defeat outside or on Indian soil? Brits themselves never give up on revenge, and they have repeatedly shown to what subhuman depths it can sink to - to exact revenge, so it should have been fair if India's unfinished revenge on the Brits was made good! One cannot escape the feeling that MKG genuinely loved the British as a nation - in an abstract mental-construct sort of way, as Rabindranath consoled himself too - that there are "great Englishmen" and "small Englishmen".

Such magnanimity seems to come easily to those who did not have to face that much of British physical or mental sadism, I guess.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by A_Gupta »

http://observingliberalpakistan.blogspo ... l-dna.html

There were 3 murders of "blasphemers" in the late 1920s, in Lahore, Karachi and Calcutta.
The Lahore case was Rajpal murdered by Ilamuddin (and I have the dates & details).
(e.g., http://observingliberalpakistan.blogspo ... e-157.html )

Does anyone know the names, dates, details of the cases in Karachi and Calcutta. If you come across them, please post them here.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Rajpal's Rangila Rasul was a reply to Sitaka Chinala—a pamphlet written by a Muslim alleging that Sita was a "prostitute".

I think I have read somewhere, but cannot remember source that Abdul Quayum of Karachi, the Muslim who had murdered Nathuramal on charges of writing a supposed attack on Muhammad, was exectuted on 19th March 1935. The DM and a police party went to hand over the body to relatives but were met by a mob (25/30,000) at the cemetery outside the city and wanted to take a procession into the city. The police having failed a British army platoon was called for which had to open fire, and I think (47?) killed. Is this the case you are referring to?

Not sure about Calcutta "blasphemy" case before 1947. There were continuous riots from 1917 - and well recorded. Many on the excuse that Hindus had criticized/lampooned/mocked Muslims/Islam. Whenever possible Muslims tried to gang-rape the wife/daughter of the accused Hindu. Many lurid and gory reports survive even as reported by investigating officers.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote:One cannot escape the feeling that MKG genuinely loved the British as a nation - in an abstract mental-construct sort of way, as Rabindranath consoled himself too - that there are "great Englishmen" and "small Englishmen".
+1008 Bji.

The C-System and it's elite are forever indebted to the founder of INC, the British. We see the same reverence, submission and sycophancy to till date. Our MMS is also forever indebted to his masters that gave him this one in a billion life times opportunity.

In return the C system never hesitated to hurt the native population in order to please their masters.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

C system = Congress system?
And not other possibilities
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RamaY »

yes Rji. It also is part of the Colony-system
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Dec 25, 2012

Post by member_20292 »

Lalmohan wrote:
dyer would have been a young man at the time of ulundi, but he would have grown up in a mindset of using an 'iron-hand' to deal with surly (and unworthy) natives
To be honest, I am surprised at the lack of massacres that the British committed in India. Their experience here seems to be far removed from , say , their experience in Kenya, or Uganda or South Africa.

In India, they sort of, found a easy going subdued native, who was easy to deal with. They were basically able to trade and deal with us Indians (and enrich themselves) in a distinctly peaceful manner.

You had almost no opposition to the British coming in, making their alliances and deals with the Nawabs, then surreptitiously becoming number 1 in the market full of crumbling old powers. I don't think that the British ever had absolute control, but, rather like the India of today, they held sway in northern India and some important parts of southern India.
The rest of the geography were all brit-friendly princely rulers ruling over poor peasants and eager to have British arms ammo and army defending himself from the lampost and his neighbouring nawab.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Dec 25, 2012

Post by shiv »

mahadevbhu wrote: I don't think that the British ever had absolute control, but, rather like the India of today, they held sway in northern India and some important parts of southern India.
This is incorrect apart from being off topic for this thread.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by RajeshA »

When the British left the Subcontinent, they left it in exactly the way that suited its interests:
  • In Pakistan they set up a regime of hard Islam, which would do Britain's military bidding - provide a geostrategic foothold in Asia and be Britain's non-empire actors.
  • In India they set up a regime of soft Islam, which would do Britain's cultural bidding - facilitate British economic interests in the Subcontinent and deracinate the Hindus
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Dec 25, 2012

Post by abhijitm »

mahadevbhu wrote: In India, they sort of, found a easy going subdued native, who was easy to deal with. They were basically able to trade and deal with us Indians (and enrich themselves) in a distinctly peaceful manner.
This statement is historically inaccurate.
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Re: The off-topic thread

Post by Anujan »

mahadevbhu

Please look up Bengal famine, how many millions died and compare it with the holocaust. Also please lookup experiments to see how few calories a man can consume before he can't do manual labor. This was in the madras presidency and killed thousands.
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Re: The off-topic thread

Post by member_19686 »

Anujan wrote:mahadevbhu

Please look up Bengal famine, how many millions died and compare it with the holocaust. Also please lookup experiments to see how few calories a man can consume before he can't do manual labor. This was in the madras presidency and killed thousands.
He could read these if he can be bothered instead of prattling mleccha nonsense about their benevolent and peaceful rule:

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/20 ... du-empire/

http://jambudveep.wordpress.com/2011/01 ... -in-india/

Edit: To the poster varunkumar, in Haiti it was way worse than 1857, almost all goras got wiped out.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

The horrible Jallianwala Bagh massacre marked the begining of the end of British rule. After that it was matter of when and how and not if the Brits would leave India.
The uppercrust Brits are still in denial as to their brutality as seen by the remarks separated in time by the Queen Consort and the British PM Cameron.


I distinctly recall in Richard Attenburgh's film "Gandhi" there were machine guns setup to shoot at the assembled crowd.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by SBajwa »

1857 is when East India Company gave control to the British Empire. 1919 is when Empire tried force but could only keep it up till 1947. So 90 years of British rule in my opinion should have ended in 1920s i.e. around 60 years., they extended it by 30 years. These last 30 years were heavy for us.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

mahadevbhu wrote:
To be honest, I am surprised at the lack of massacres that the British committed in India. Their experience here seems to be far removed from , say , their experience in Kenya, or Uganda or South Africa.

In India, they sort of, found a easy going subdued native, who was easy to deal with. They were basically able to trade and deal with us Indians (and enrich themselves) in a distinctly peaceful manner.

You had almost no opposition to the British coming in, making their alliances and deals with the Nawabs, then surreptitiously becoming number 1 in the market full of crumbling old powers. I don't think that the British ever had absolute control, but, rather like the India of today, they held sway in northern India and some important parts of southern India.
The rest of the geography were all brit-friendly princely rulers ruling over poor peasants and eager to have British arms ammo and army defending himself from the lampost and his neighbouring nawab.
The resistance to British was in 1801-1805 - Marattha, 1848 - Sikh Kingdom and other fringe areas.
1857 was the first large scale planned war against the British army/EIC army to break the EIC stronghold.
The British Queen took over after created a govt based rule instead of a company based rule.

The British used a combination of trade advantage making the Indian traders to concede (loose the trade/ and trading rights) and to crush all resistance against the British/colonial troops.

During resistance British used any group which would help them against the attack/resistance/freedom fight.

During each of the war in the subcontinent from 1750 till 1860 the British formed an alliance with others.
Some of them was local Indian troops from Sikh, Bengal or smaller kingdoms.

After Independence they followed exactly the same model of creating alliance to keep United India down.
They have used trading blocks to isolate India from the global trading system and put India inside a currency black box.

First with Pakistan till 1971 and now with PRC in a geopolitical alliance. Brilliantly planned strategy which has worked for 300 years
Last edited by svinayak on 22 Feb 2013 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
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