Political will and speed of emergency response

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 04 Sep 2009 13:46

Steve fossett was not a CM nor a Congress Loyalist .

If reports are to be believed , the entire state and center resources was used to find the wreckage , including satellites , fighter planes and what not , they say its first of a kind search effort in India.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 14:45

Sorry to be a wet blanket. The crash site was apparently found by sending an SMS to the phone of one of the dead people and then using cellphone tower locations to triangulate and locate the wreckage.

geeth
BRFite
Posts: 1195
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: India

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 04 Sep 2009 14:52

I have my doubts..what are the chances for one mobile to survive the heat of burning kerosene. It is reported that all bodies were charred.

unless ofcourse the mobile phone flew off the chopper and was intact. Still, how good would be the range of the nearest tower to pick up signal from a mobile phone lying in the middle of the forest?

Being in the middle of the city, I have problems with getting signals inside my house. BSNL Zindabad!

abhiti
BRFite
Posts: 248
Joined: 26 Apr 2009 00:39

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby abhiti » 04 Sep 2009 17:59

Austin wrote:Steve fossett was not a CM nor a Congress Loyalist .

If reports are to be believed , the entire state and center resources was used to find the wreckage , including satellites , fighter planes and what not , they say its first of a kind search effort in India.


While there was no plane available to carry commandos to Mumbai for almost 12 hours, it seems for xCM everything was available soon. Sonia connection can get unthinkable done.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 18:10

abhiti wrote:While there was no plane available to carry commandos to Mumbai for almost 12 hours, it seems for xCM everything was available soon. Sonia connection can get unthinkable done.


An excellent point that needs to be emphasized and remembered!

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 04 Sep 2009 18:15

abhiti wrote:While there was no plane available to carry commandos to Mumbai for almost 12 hours, it seems for xCM everything was available soon. Sonia connection can get unthinkable done.
Excuse me, what makes you think there was no plane around for 12 hours during 26/11? With all due respect, please get your facts right before you throw frivolous claims around.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 20:17

pandyan wrote:the point abhiti is making is during terrorist attacks...logistics and decision machine machinery always becomes a bottleneck...however, when a politician is in crisis, all resources are magically whipped out of thin air...in a remarkable swiftness


Correct and this is the spirit in which I saw the statement. In fact a minister was saying "These things happen" when the Mumbai attacks started. Nothing of the sort here.

IAF, Army, ISRO, NSA, UAV, Helos, Paracommandos and everyone was available to search a remote and inaccessible area.

But Mumbai? How remote and inaccessible is it?

Goes to show how our politicians think and how their sycophants and possibly babus work overtime.

Sorry. Wrong thread

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Sep 2009 20:22

indeed amazing how much of resources were mobilized in a matter of hours to search for the site. I dare say even if a B737 filled with sick babies had gone down without a trace somewhere in india, nothing like this would be done.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 20:34

In the Su 30 thread - which is the wrong thread for discussion the following point was made by a member regarding the rapidity with which resources were mobilized to locate the missing helicopter that crashed killing the Andhra Chief Minister.

While there was no plane available to carry commandos to Mumbai for almost 12 hours, it seems for xCM everything was available soon. Sonia connection can get unthinkable done.


I think this is an excellent observation - explained by the following comment:

the point abhiti is making is during terrorist attacks...logistics and decision machine machinery always becomes a bottleneck...however, when a politician is in crisis, all resources are magically whipped out of thin air...in a remarkable swiftness


In fact a minister was saying "These things happen" when the Mumbai attacks started. Nothing of the sort here.

IAF, Army, ISRO, NSA, UAV, Helos, Paracommandos and everyone was available to search a remote and inaccessible area.

But Mumbai? How remote and inaccessible is it?

Goes to show how our politicians think and how their sycophants and possibly babus work overtime.

Another related comment made was:
indeed amazing how much of resources were mobilized in a matter of hours to search for the site. I dare say even if a B737 filled with sick babies had gone down without a trace somewhere in india, nothing like this would be done.


I think this is an issue that needs highlighting because it smacks of the political class holding themselves as more important than the people of the country.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 20:34

Singha wrote:indeed amazing how much of resources were mobilized in a matter of hours to search for the site. I dare say even if a B737 filled with sick babies had gone down without a trace somewhere in india, nothing like this would be done.

I have started a new thread about this here
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5163

John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby John Snow » 04 Sep 2009 20:37

The solution is only when Indian VVIPS die in terrorist attacks then the real speed and responsiveness will be displayed.

Also note that Su-30 was used because all other a/c were grounded and some VVIP son wanted to sit in SU30 co pilot seat any way it was going to be empty.

Also note NSA chief did notr wait for Chef to make his appearence on the scene. General Chai Biscoot Samosa were all forgone, bit of supreme sacrifice for AP CM. Makes all Telugus proud. Eh...

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 20:40

John Snow wrote:

Also note that Su-30 was used because all other a/c were grounded and some VVIP son wanted to sit in SU30 co pilot seat any way it was going to be empty.


explain this more please? its not so easy to get joyrides. would like to see a reference for it

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Austin » 04 Sep 2009 20:43

Another Irony is along with CM 4 people died in the crash , 2 pilots and 1 Senior IAS officer .

But no one in media every tried to figure out whats happening with their family or near and dear ones.

All channels keep telling us how great the CM ( God bless his soul ) was and how sad every body is

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 20:48

I honestly worry that the government respond slowly or not respond to a nuke attack if one of their own are not touched - of if an opposition party state gets nuked.

I will link the "Jingopura nuked" story here

viewtopic.php?p=730419#p730419

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 20:58

Austin wrote:Another Irony is along with CM 4 people died in the crash , 2 pilots and 1 Senior IAS officer .

But no one in media every tried to figure out whats happening with their family or near and dear ones.

All channels keep telling us how great the CM ( God bless his soul ) was and how sad every body is


Not really austin. I dont know about the national coverage, but the local tv stations have tried to do their bit.

Some press reports as well. for example http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11403 from Tribune talks about the pilot.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 20:59

Here is the timeline
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11396

September 2; 08:35 am:
Twin-engined Bell 430 AP government helicopter carrying the Chief Minister YSR, his Principal Secretary S Subramanyam and Chief Security Officer A S C Wesley, takes off from old Begumpet airport for Chitoor district.

09:35 am: Helicopter loses contact while flying over Nallamalai forest range.
PM’s Office, Home Ministry and Defence Ministry alerted. Four helicopters, an unmanned aerial vehicle pressed into service.

04:00 pm: Finance Minister K Rosaiah addresses press conference in Hyderabad to say no word on the chief minister.

05:30 pm: CRPF personnel and army jawans enter Nallamalai forest with night vision devices.

06:30 pm: Search called off due to poor light and bad weather.

07:00 pm: IAF Sukhoi-30 MKI with thermal imaging devices deployed.
September 3; 05:00 am: Sukhoi aircraft and a pilot-less low-flying ISRO aircraft scour the forest area.

06:30 am: Union Ministers Veerappa Moily and Prithviraj Chavan reach AP.
08:30 am: Ill-fated helicopter located 40 km east of Kurnool in the hills of Nallamalai ranges.

10:00 am: Bodies of the chief minister and four others and the mangled remains of the helicopter found on Rudrakoderu Hill.


Helicopters and UAVs were pressed into service soon after the helo was reported missing.

To be fair, is this a question of good organization and quick reaction by the AP leadership, and hopeless organization by the Maharashtra government on 26/11. or is it a case of "CM is one of us and is more important than some hotel guests and people in a cafe or station"?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 21:03

I was surprised to find army involved in the burial of this gentleman.

Was it a State i.e. Federal funeral?

I thought only Presidents and PM are accorded this honour and not any other chap.

I was however impressed to see part of the 'champion of the poor' estate where he was buried.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 21:05

"Law and order" is a state subject - so the central Govt may have sat on its backside on 26/11 waiting for the Maharashtra govt to do something. It turns out that the maharashtra government too sat on its backside and the police chief was not where he was supposed to be.

A helicopter crash (I am guessing) comes under the civil avialtion ministry which is central govt. I am willing to give the AP govt credit for asking for help soon. OK Ok the Su 30 NSA and UAV may have been the effect of politico vs aam aadmi.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 21:06

RayC wrote:I was surprised to find army involved in the burial of this gentleman.

Was it a State i.e. Federal funeral?

I thought only Presidents and PM are accorded this honour and not any other chap.


Could it be because of security for Rajmata, Rajkumar and Pradhan Mantri?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23287
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby chetak » 04 Sep 2009 21:06

Jagan wrote:
John Snow wrote:

Also note that Su-30 was used because all other a/c were grounded and some VVIP son wanted to sit in SU30 co pilot seat any way it was going to be empty.


explain this more please? its not so easy to get joyrides. would like to see a reference for it



Almost impossible for an Indian (or any other) civilian to joyride an Indian Armed forces airplane. Except for press on pre approved missions and even this happens very rarely.

Flying in an ejection seat aircraft requires special training for use of the seat in emergencies.

There are however approved rates for hiring of military transport aircraft / helicopters in emergency by state and central govt for use by chief ministers or other govt functionaries and no accident liability of any kind is accepted by the GOI.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23287
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby chetak » 04 Sep 2009 21:11

shiv wrote:
RayC wrote:I was surprised to find army involved in the burial of this gentleman.

Was it a State i.e. Federal funeral?

I thought only Presidents and PM are accorded this honour and not any other chap.


Could it be because of security for Rajmata, Rajkumar and Pradhan Mantri?



Also I thought that 21 gun salutes were only for heads of (nation) state.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 21:13

shiv wrote:
RayC wrote:I was surprised to find army involved in the burial of this gentleman.

Was it a State i.e. Federal funeral?

I thought only Presidents and PM are accorded this honour and not any other chap.


Could it be because of security for Rajmata, Rajkumar and Pradhan Mantri?


I wonder.

A State CM has nothing to do with the Army! The Army is an instrument of the Centre. Police is the instrument of the State.

Searching for the helicopter is fine but not being involved in the funeral or burial of a State functionary!

I found it disgusting to see a CMP (Mil Police) jawan being pushed around by the crowd. And the jawans foolishly and most unmilitarily like ambling around in the crowd. As it is, the Army is becoming very civilian like, losing their discipline.

The army must be kept far from these political jamborees, lest they get an inkling how power is important for success!

I wonder which clot allowed the Army to get involved in this political jamboree. We will soon go the Police way and then some Chief will start having ideas of greater glory!

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 21:22

RayC wrote:

I wonder.

I found it disgusting to see a CMP (Mil Police) jawan being pushed around by the crowd. And the jawans foolishly and most unmilitarily like ambling around in the crowd. As it is, the Army is becoming very civilian like.

The army must be kept far from these political jamborees, lest they get an inkling how power is important for success!

I wonder which clot allowed the Army to get involved in this political jamboree. We will soon go the Police way and then some Chief will start having ideas of greater glory!


There seems to be a tedency here to view this as a political event. It is anything but that

The atmosphere here (yep I am here) is totally non-political (for now). for the first time, I am seeing people refer to him as 'our CM' rather than 'congress CM'.

so yes, this is a state funeral - because ths is the first time a CM in AP died in harness (and an untimely one).

There should be no surprise on the involvement of the IAF Helicopters and Dhruvs from Yelahanka or Hakimpet - they ahve been called for support in the past in quick time. I remember when a female flying pilot from Hyderabad flying club got lost, a HS-748 from begumpet was diverted to search for the aircraft and sheperd it in. And this was the result of cooperation by the Civil ATC with the IAF. helicopters diverted for flood relief ops are not unusual. Remember the Hyderabad Floods - the Mi-8s came fom yelhanka to airlift people from their flooded homes.

What was 'extra' was the deployment of the MKIs with their SARs or Litenings. I am guessing the involvement of the AAR tankers was because the Squadrons in Pune do not have the experience of using these tools? otherwise you dont need to refuel if you were flying in from Pune.

I agree that the funeral arrangements have been a bit botched , even the CM's family members were jostled around. I would susspect someone in the police dept would get a rocket for the haphazard arrangements

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 21:23

Almost impossible for an Indian (or any other) civilian to joyride an Indian Armed forces airplane. Except for press on pre approved missions and even this happens very rarely.


Even an Army person cannot fly in an IAF aircraft without authorisation!

What is happening?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 21:28

Jagan wrote:
There seems to be a tedency here to view this as a political event. It is anything but that

The atmosphere here (yep I am here) is totally non-political (for now). for the first time, I am seeing people refer to him as 'our CM' rather than 'congress CM'.

so yes, this is a state funeral - because ths is the first time a CM in AP died in harness (and an untimely one).

There should be no surprise on the involvement of the IAF Helicopters and Dhruvs from Yelahanka or Hakimpet - they ahve been called for support in the past in quick time. I remember when a female flying pilot from Hyderabad flying club got lost, a HS-748 from begumpet was diverted to search for the aircraft and sheperd it in. And this was the result of cooperation by the Civil ATC with the IAF. helicopters diverted for flood relief ops are not unusual. Rememer the Hyderabad Floods - the Mi-8s came fom yelhanka to airlift people from their flooded homes.

What was 'extra' was the deployment of the MKIs with their SARs or Litenings. I am guessing the involvement of the AAR tankers was because the Squadrons in Pune do not have the experience of using these tools? otherwise you dont need to refuel if you were flying in from Pune.


He maybe 'our' CM for Andhra, but he surely is not India's CM.

It is not material if he was the First Andhra Pradesh CM to die in harness. He still is a State functionary and the Army is not responsible for organising his funeral.

I am referring to the funeral and not the search.

The use of all resources, civil, military or even the US is fine, but not the funeral for a State functionary since the Army is an instrument of the Centre and not of the State.

The Army is responsible to the Centre and not the State!

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 21:37

RayC wrote:He maybe 'our' CM for Andhra, but he surely is not India's CM.

It is not material if he was the First Andhra Pradesh CM to die in harness. He still is a State functionary and the Army is not responsible for organising his funeral.



The use of all resources, civil, military or even the US is fine, but not the funeral for a State functionary since the Army is an instrument of the Centre and not of the State.

The Army is responsible to the Centre and not the State!


Here is a quote from Traditions and Customs of the Indian Armed Forces by Major General Chand N Das
A State funeral, apart from a purely military funeral, is accorded to any dignitary, when ordered by the Central Government


If the Army has been ordered to give the state funeral, then there is nothing wrong or unlawful with the presence of the Army. They are following a lawful order given by the civilian government.

the thing to debate is if it is the prerogative of the Central Government to order a state funeral to a Chief Minister of a state? I would like to see any documentation that says it cannot. The government can certainly say it is its prerogative and that the CM does anyway come above the Chiefs of Staff in the order of precedence. So whats wrong?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 21:42

Jagan wrote:
Here is a quote from Traditions and Customs of the Indian Armed Forces by Major General Chand N Das
A State funeral, apart from a purely military funeral, is accorded to any dignitary, when ordered by the Central Government


If the Army has been ordered to give the state funeral, then there is nothing wrong or unlawful with the presence of the Army. They are following a lawful order given by the civilian government.

the thing to debate is if it is the prerogative of the Central Government to order a state funeral to a Chief Minister of a state? I would like to see any documentation that says it cannot. The government can certainly say it is its prerogative and that the CM does anyway come above the Chiefs of Staff in the order of precedence. So whats wrong?


It is not material what is the order of precedence.

I presume that the Army should organise the funeral of all above the Chief in the order of precedence!

Has the authority directions under which the General Chand Das has given the idea of the Central Govt can run wild?

Will they give Jyoti Basu a similar funeral, after all he can go any minute!

The order of precedence, if I am not wrong states:

Chief Ministers of States (within their respective states)

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2009 21:46

Didn't Gandhi get a state funeral? So I guess a state funeral could be ordered by the central government. But that would make it a political event alright - especially with the involvement of bigwigs like the PM and Sonia.

I think it would be deceit to ignore that Andhra is a very important state politically for the Congress and the YSR was the single most important cog in that political equation.

That makes the contrast with Mumbai even more stark and the irony just that much greater. The parties fortunes have to get just that wee bit more priority than the misfortunes of people facing a terrorist attack.

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 21:47

RayC wrote:Have you the authority under which the General Chand Das has given the idea of the Central Govt can run wild?


I dont know but the foreword is written by the Army Chief of Staff (of that time) General T N Raina. who I suppose was of sufficient integrity that he would not write the foreword if Maj Gen Das was sloppy to write stuff that was not valid.

While we are at it

From Regimental Colours and Ceremonials of the Indian Army by Brig T B Kapur

Details of Entitlements of Escorts for State and Military Funerals

a) Serving PResident, visiting head of state.....etc. etc.. 1500 ranks
b) PM, PM of a visiting state, ambasadors...etc.etc 1000 ranks
c) any other VIP on orders of the Government of India 500 ranks


500 ranks is what a Maj Gen, Brig or Colonel is also eligible.

Gun Salute VIPs (Civil)

(Nothing given for VIPs - but my guess is a 7 gun Salute)

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 21:50

RayC wrote:
The order of precedence, if I am not wrong states:

Chief Ministers of States (within their respective states)



He died in AP didnt he? ;)

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby munna » 04 Sep 2009 21:56

RayC wrote:Will they give Jyoti Basu a similar funeral, after all he can go any minute!

The order of precedence, if I am not wrong states:

Chief Ministers of States (within their respective states)

Chief Ministers of states are equivalent to Union Cabinet Ministers in the warrant of precedence hence I do not feel GOI is wrong to have ordered State Funeral through army. Its our/GOI's army and not an army for its own sake. click

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 21:59

Jagan wrote:
RayC wrote:Have you the authority under which the General Chand Das has given the idea of the Central Govt can run wild?


I dont know but the foreword is written by the Army Chief of Staff (of that time) General T N Raina. who I suppose was of sufficient integrity that he would not write the foreword if Maj Gen Das was sloppy to write stuff that was not valid.

While we are at it

From Regimental Colours and Ceremonials of the Indian Army by Brig T B Kapur

Details of Entitlements of Escorts for State and Military Funerals

a) Serving PResident, visiting head of state.....etc. etc.. 1500 ranks
b) PM, PM of a visiting state, ambasadors...etc.etc 1000 ranks
c) any other VIP on orders of the Government of India 500 ranks


500 ranks is what a Maj Gen, Brig or Colonel is also eligible.

Gun Salute VIPs (Civil)

(Nothing given for VIPs - but my guess is a 7 gun Salute)


We all know how Forewords are written and I am not aware what Gen Raina wrote. I am yet to see any Foreword which is critical of the author.

Who is this Chandra Das? Haven't heard of him.

As far as Army funeral for their personnel, he does not have to be a Flag rank. Even a jawan gets a military funeral. It is not the question of being just eligible, it is the very little a comrade can do for his comrade in arms! It is from the heart and not directed by orders.

A funeral for a State functionary, sets a bad precedence and allows room for bickering and bad blood if another CM dies and nothing is done for his funeral.

We are dividing the Indian society into various segments!

Did NTR, who was more charismatic a leader of Andhra Pradesh get a State funeral with the army in attendance?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 22:01

Jagan wrote:
RayC wrote:
The order of precedence, if I am not wrong states:

Chief Ministers of States (within their respective states)



He died in AP didnt he? ;)


He did, but the Army is there not because they are govt servants of AP.

AP does not pay their salaries etc!

You are entitled to your views as I am.

My only worry is that the Army is getting politicised and that is dangerous!

As it is they are getting more concerned of their rights than their duties!

If you all are comfortable with that, what is my problem.

There will come a day when retired personnel including General don't go on dharnas over their pensions!

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Austin » 04 Sep 2009 22:05

Jagan wrote:Not really austin. I dont know about the national coverage, but the local tv stations have tried to do their bit.

Some press reports as well. for example http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11403 from Tribune talks about the pilot.


Thankfully some one cared to write about the pilot( God Bless his soul and his family sad tragedy for them :cry: ) , what about the other two guys ?

The national media gave no coverage for the rest of the soul who died in the tragedy , except for those scrolling liners which says other 4 have died as well

R Vaidya
BRFite
Posts: 128
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 12:31

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby R Vaidya » 04 Sep 2009 22:06

Central cabinet can take a decision to give State Funeral to any citizen of the country.
It has got nothing to do with central or state leadera.
Mother Therasa got a state funeral as decided by Vajpayee cabinet. MGR got one.of course Jyothi Basu will get one.
Rvaidya

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54776
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby ramana » 04 Sep 2009 22:07

Folks please discuss the thread topic:
Political will and speed of emergencey resposne in this thread.

All issues of protocol and other people's death can be discussed in the YSR thread in GDF. No need to go off topic.

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 22:08

RayC wrote:We all know how Forewords are written and I am not aware what Gen Raina wrote. I am yet to see any Foreword which is critical of the author.

Who is this Chandra Das? Haven't heard of him.


Maj Gen Chand N Das. He is no more. Well known in military litterature circles - his books are not the fluff that you normally see nowadays . If you have friends in the USI, you may want to check about him through them.

RayC wrote:Did NTR, who was more charismatic a leader of Andhra Pradesh get a State funeral with the army in attendance?


I dont think he did. But he was not a CM in harness when he died. He was deposed by CBN by that time. However NTR did get a 'NTR Ghat' in a prime area in the middle of the city where he was cremated ;). The only ex-CM to do so.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23287
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby chetak » 04 Sep 2009 22:11

RayC wrote:
Almost impossible for an Indian (or any other) civilian to joyride an Indian Armed forces airplane. Except for press on pre approved missions and even this happens very rarely.


Even an Army person cannot fly in an IAF aircraft without authorisation!

What is happening?


RayC saab,

Local authorization is good enough our Armed Forces types.

For choppers and transports it freely given at least in the IN, as they have regulations to familiarize non aviation personnel with aviation activities. Takes much hustling to ride any of the others.

Similarly the submarines and ships will also generally oblige.

Army and others are warmly welcomed.

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 22:13

Last one on Chand N Das (we can stop questions on his capabilties I hope)

Image

Image

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16148
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby SwamyG » 04 Sep 2009 22:16

Timeline from Hindustan Times. {source: Hindustan Times}
Here is the timeline of how events related to Andhra CM YSR Reddy's disappearance unfolded since Wednesday morning.

8:30 AM: CM YS Reddy boarded Bell 430 chopper from Hyderabad airport on Wednesday morning.

9:35 AM: Chopper went off the radar of ATC Hyderabad

10:15 AM: The chopper lost all contacts

11:30 AM: Initial reports of chopper making forced landing at Kurnool spread.

12:15 PM: Reports of YSR missing

1:00 PM: Home Ministry said Andhra CM untraceable

1:30 PM: Unconfirmed reports in media said YSR safe, landed in Kurnool forest

2:00 PM: Andhra government, Home ministry said to have been monitoring situation

3:00 PM: Andhra govt confirmed CM had gone missing, search ops on

3:30 PM: Congress in press meet called it crisis situation

6 PM: Search operations by ten helicopters on in six district

Late night: Night vision surveillance on; ISRO and Sukhoy fighter plane assisted in search for the chopper

9 AM: YSR's chopper found in mangled, burnt state

10 AM: Survivors after the chopper crash unlikely

10:30 AM: 5 dead bodies found from the chopper; No official confirmation

11:00 AM: Andhra CM YSR declared dead


Timeline as per Times of India {source: IANS}
NEW DELHI: The following is the timeline of the search operations to locate the helicopter carrying Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister Y.S.
Rajasekhara Reddy:

Wednesday, Sep 2:

8.30 a.m. - Bell 430 helicopter carrying YSR and four others takes off from Hyderabad's Begumpet airport.

9.35 a.m. - Radio contact lost with helicopter.

1 p.m. - Indian Air force receives request for search and rescue operations.

1.15-1.20 p.m. - Two Chetak helicopters take off from Hakimpet training base in Secunderabad.

3 p.m. - A Mi-8 helicopter takes off from Bangalore's
Yelahanka air base. It starts scanning the area indicated by state government agencies.

4.30 p.m. - A Dornier aircraft takes off from Yelahanka. It flies from Yelahanka to Kadapa, Srisailam, and Chittoor before returning to base. It was equipped with a synthetic aperture radar that can look through heavy cloud cover.

5 p.m. - An Avro aircraft and two Chetak helicopters take off from Hyderabad. An operation room is set up at Kurnool.

6.45 p.m. - Decision taken to press into service Sukhoi SU-30MKIs combat aircraft for mapping the densely forested area in which the Bell 430 is believed to have crashed.

8.40 p.m. - Two SU-30s and an IL-78 midair refueller take off from the Bareilly air base and land back at midnight.

Thursday, Sep 3:

2.15 a.m. - A SU-30 and an IL-78 undertake another mission that lasts till 8.30 a.m.

6.30 a.m. - Chetak helicopter resumes search mission.

8.30 a.m. - Wreckage of crashed Bell 430 spotted.

9.28 a.m. - Paracommandos slither down to the crash site from a Mi-8 helicopter as no room for chopper to land.

9.30 a.m. - Three more commandos slither down from a Dhruv advanced light helicopter.

10.45 a.m. - Bodies of YSR and four other passengers of the crashed helicopter are winched up to a Dhruv and a Mi-8 helicopter in bags.
Last edited by SwamyG on 04 Sep 2009 22:22, edited 2 times in total.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Avinash Rav, george, Google Feedfetcher, TKiran and 65 guests