Political will and speed of emergency response

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RayC
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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 04 Sep 2009 22:16

chetak wrote:[

RayC saab,

Local authorization is good enough our Armed Forces types.

For choppers and transports it freely given at least in the IN, as they have regulations to familiarize non aviation personnel with aviation activities. Takes much hustling to ride any of the others.

Similarly the submarines and ships will also generally oblige.

Army and others are warmly welcomed.


I am not talking about the 'Old boy net'.

I have done enough of that and more.

However, to fly in a helicopter, you required clearance from the HQ Command!

For flying in an IAF tranport ac, you required clearance from the Air Command except the regular ferries.

Chetak,

Time you read up and boned on Aid to Civil Power and see if 'local authorities' can whistle up the armed forces!

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby SwamyG » 04 Sep 2009 22:21

Timeline from DN&A
{source: PTI}
Hyderabad: Following is a blow by blow account of the missing helicopter of Andhra Pradesh chief minister YS Rajasekhara Reddy:

September 2, 2009:
08:35 AM - Twin-engined Bell 430 AP government helicopter carrying the chief minister takes off from old Begumpet airport.

The helicopter was also carrying chief minister's principal secretary S Subramanyam and chief security officer ASC Wesley, heads for Chitoor district.

09:35 AM - Helicopter, flown by two pilots, loses contact while possibly flying over Nallamalai forest ranges, a stronghold of the Naxalites, in the Rayalaseema region.

Prime minister's office, Union home ministry and defence ministry alerted. Office of Congress president Sonia Gandhi in touch with the state government.

Four helicopters, including three belonging to IAF pressed into search operations, but no contact established because of strong winds and inclement weather.

Two IAF helicopters from Hakimpet air command in Secunderabad return because of inclement weather, while three from Bangalore air command and one private helicopter from Nellore were involved in search operations.

An unmanned aerial vehicle from the defence ministry also pressed into service.

04:00 PM - Finance minister K Rosaiah addresses press conference in Hyderabad to say no word on the chief minister.

Time for carrying out search operations runs out as sunset approaches.

05:30 PM - CRPF personnel and army jawans enter Nallamalai forest with night vision devices.

06:30 PM - Search called off due to poor light and bad weather.

07:00 PM - IAF Sukhoi-30 MKI with thermal imaging devices deployed.

Remote Sensing Agency's pilot-less aircraft deployed for aerial search during night.

September 3, 2009:
05:00 AM - Sukhoi aircraft and a pilot-less low-flying ISRO aircraft scour the forest area to locate the missing chopper in a 5-km radius area.

06:30 AM - Search operations resume with the help of four choppers. Union ministers Veerappa Moily and Prithviraj Chavan reach here from Delhi to monitor the operations.

08:30 AM - Ill-fated helicopter located 40 km east of Kurnoor in the hills of Nallamalai ranges.

10:00 AM - Bodies of chief minister and four other persons accompanying him and the mangled remains of the helicopter found on Rudrakonda Hill, 40 nautical miles east of Kurnool.

10:30 AM - Congress president Sonia Gandhi, prime minister Manmohan Singh, senior ministers Pranab Mukherjee, AKAntony, P Chidambaram and senior Congress leader Ahmed Patel meet in the core group.

12:30 AM - Home minister P Chidambaram announces the death of YS Rajasekhara Reddy and four others in the helicopter crash.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shravan » 04 Sep 2009 22:25

Swamy Ji,

Can we get the timeline from local papers ?
Last edited by shravan on 04 Sep 2009 22:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby Jagan » 04 Sep 2009 22:25

RayC wrote:I am not talking about the 'Old boy net'.
I have done enough of that and more.
However, to fly in a helicopter, you required clearance from the HQ Command!
For flying in an IAF tranport ac, you required clearance from the Air Command except the regular ferries.


John Snow made a hit and run post about a Su-30 giving a joyride to the son of a VVIP and had not substantiated it with any source. (yet). We are pulling too much hair because of an unsubstantiated report.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby chetak » 04 Sep 2009 23:29

RayC wrote:
chetak wrote:[

RayC saab,

Local authorization is good enough our Armed Forces types.

For choppers and transports it freely given at least in the IN, as they have regulations to familiarize non aviation personnel with aviation activities. Takes much hustling to ride any of the others.

Similarly the submarines and ships will also generally oblige.

Army and others are warmly welcomed.


I am not talking about the 'Old boy net'.

I have done enough of that and more.

However, to fly in a helicopter, you required clearance from the HQ Command!

For flying in an IAF tranport ac, you required clearance from the Air Command except the regular ferries.

Chetak,

Time you read up and boned on Aid to Civil Power and see if 'local authorities' can whistle up the armed forces!



Saab ji,

Neither am I talking of the old boy network. Many times I have been manifested and boarded a military aircraft just on the say so of the captain. Manifested makes it as official as you can get.

In kerala, the CM hires Naval choppers and is duly billed and promptly pays. Such amounts are deposited in special RBI accounts.

Have people forgotten how the MOD was chasing after devegowda and other politicians to clear long pending payments for use of Air Force aircraft?

Ever wondered why madam always traveled with shivraj patil or mms by air? and always to destinations that did not have anything to do with patil's or mms's duties. These gents have their own dedicated official planes. Other ministers can use other such aircraft if available.


Easy, when you know how. :) And no bills to pay.

New Delhi: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Congress president Sonia Gandhi and party general secretary Rahul Gandhi will leave for Hyderabad today to attend the funeral of Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy.

According to official sources on Thursday, the three leaders will leave for Hyderabad today morning to attend YSR's state funeral.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby SwamyG » 04 Sep 2009 23:53

shravan wrote:Swamy Ji,

Can we get the timeline from local papers ?

You mean vernacular (telugu) press? I don't know telugu - I wish I knew it though.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby John Snow » 04 Sep 2009 23:59

We have a rich tradition in India. The current hoop la about a CM helicopter missing is nothing new.

Many of our members might not have been born to see this head line of India Express Bombay/Pune edition on August 4 th 1979

Indian Airlines Avro 748 crash all passengers killed No VIP dead.

"An Indian Airlines HS.748 crashed into mountains near Bombay during
monsoon rains while on a scheduled flight from Pune on August 4. There
were no survivors among the 41 passengers and four crew members."

The paper next day was blasted for that head line as it did not say no "VIP or VVIP dead" instead of just VIP. :mrgreen:

*****************

What about remote sensing sat deployment, did ISRO launch a new one?
What about Amerikhans help in locating the a/c why not Russia? Is it because The Bell was made in USA?
Last edited by John Snow on 05 Sep 2009 00:07, edited 1 time in total.

RayC
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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 05 Sep 2009 00:01

Ever wondered why madam always traveled with shivraj patil or mms by air?


New rules you are indicating.

Who can and who can't is laid out.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby John Snow » 05 Sep 2009 00:09

Ok all three musketers flying to gether is dumb, what if...

remember the incident when two major generals (IIRC AVM Pinto died) and AVM were killed in copter crash, since then the rule was changed no more than one / two senior ranking in the same flight... or like that.

One composite last question before I retire

"how is it possible for Central minister to get State funeral"?
The estate of the dead dictates the state funeral?

TIA

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby chetak » 05 Sep 2009 01:12

RayC wrote:
Ever wondered why madam always traveled with shivraj patil or mms by air?


New rules you are indicating.

Who can and who can't is laid out.



she has no "official" status in the govt hierarchy. Govt machinery cannot be used for party work. The audit guys or the press will pounce on it as has already happened in the past.

her presence in a govt aircraft is not governed by any applicable regulations. As an "ordinary" mp she can always take a lift.

taking a lift means no bill to pay.

In reality, the primary movement is planned and shivraj or mms or whoever, accompany as courtesy.

personal aircraft as befitting an empress.

style bhi aur bachhat bhi.

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby SwamyG » 05 Sep 2009 01:19

chetak wrote:style bhi aur bachhat bhi.

Jaan ki bachhat bhi, hain na?

RayC
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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby RayC » 05 Sep 2009 06:13

chetak wrote:

she has no "official" status in the govt hierarchy. Govt machinery cannot be used for party work. The audit guys or the press will pounce on it as has already happened in the past.

her presence in a govt aircraft is not governed by any applicable regulations. As an "ordinary" mp she can always take a lift.

taking a lift means no bill to pay.



OK, now I get the drift of your post!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 05 Sep 2009 15:02

a waste of su-30 to locate a politician -agree 1/10 th of the effort would not have been mounted if a civilian airliner crashed -all goes to show in a democracy the politicians are new rajas -prajas remain the same

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Avarachan » 05 Sep 2009 20:33

Shankar wrote:a waste of su-30 to locate a politician -agree 1/10 th of the effort would not have been mounted if a civilian airliner crashed -all goes to show in a democracy the politicians are new rajas -prajas remain the same


Shankar, I disagree with you. I agree with you that currently, not 1/10th of this effort would have been mounted for a civilian airliner. However, this search effort reveals what the Indian government is capable of, and that's important. Now, it's up to the people of India to demand that the government perform at this level consistently. But I agree with the other posters: the contrast with Mumbai is eye-opening, and very sad.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby arunsrinivasan » 05 Sep 2009 20:39

^^ re the contrast with mumbai .... am not trying to justify or support the government, IMHO, but it does seem like having a pro-active home minister made the difference (at least partly). I think it shows how important is it to have competent people at the top & not old fuddy duddies.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 05 Sep 2009 20:58

arunsrinivasan wrote:^^ re the contrast with mumbai .... am not trying to justify or support the government, IMHO, but it does seem like having a pro-active home minister made the difference (at least partly). I think it shows how important is it to have competent people at the top & not old fuddy duddies.


PLEASE!!

There is a separate thread for this.


Kindly post views on there - not on here.I will start reporting any further discussion of that subject here to admins for deletion

This is the thread

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5163

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Sep 2009 22:49

One reason why "so much was done" was to cover up the fact that "nothing was done"

---

Allow me to explain.

1. Blackbox etc transmit the signal which can give location of the chopper within minutes. So location was known minute the chopper crashed.

2. The location was kept hidden from public, and a small team was sent to check that accident was successful, and if not, ensure the success of the accident.

3. And meanwhile, to show that "hectic" efforts are being made to locate YSR, Sukhoi plane was called, and 100s of commandos were dispatched and so forth.

.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 06 Sep 2009 08:21

Rahul Mehta wrote:One reason why "so much was done" was to cover up the fact that "nothing was done"

---

Allow me to explain.

1. Blackbox etc transmit the signal which can give location of the chopper within minutes. So location was known minute the chopper crashed.

2. The location was kept hidden from public, and a small team was sent to check that accident was successful, and if not, ensure the success of the accident.

3. And meanwhile, to show that "hectic" efforts are being made to locate YSR, Sukhoi plane was called, and 100s of commandos were dispatched and so forth.

.


You being sarcastic or something??

Anyways, if blackboxes can do that, why did it take 4 days for the recent air france crash wreckage to be located in the atlantic??

And who are u accusing of causing the "accident"?

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby shiv » 06 Sep 2009 21:24

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... it-happens
Apart from anything else, four other lives were lost along with YSR's. Nobody has paid the slightest attention to the sorry plight of their families. Whose decision was it to take the doomed flight into hostile terrain in miserable weather? Do the loved ones of the pilots, group captain S K Bhatia, captain M S Reddy and the relatives of YSR's principal secretary S Subramanayam, plus his chief security officer A S C Wesley, have no right to question authorities, demand explanations? Or are their lives less valuable, somehow?

Watching the coverage across TV channels, it was distressing to note that the disaster was covered in such an insensitive and lop-sided manner. Granted, a VIP was killed and deserved extensive coverage - but to the exclusion of the others?


It's a shame that it takes a tragedy to raise tricky questions. But going by the sms-es doing the rounds, here's one that needs to be addressed in the spirit of fair and free enquiry - "Billed as 'India's biggest ever search' 5,000 jawans, an ISRO remote-sensing aircraft, a Sukhoi, 14 search and rescue choppers, the forest department police, paramilitary forces, Chenchu tribal guides.... all mobilized within three short hours for a missing CM. Was the Central government sleeping during the 60 hours of Mumbai terror attacks on 26/11?"

Saach ka Saamna, anyone?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 07 Sep 2009 16:29

Rahul Mehta wrote:One reason why "so much was done" was to cover up the fact that "nothing was done"

---

Allow me to explain.

1. Blackbox etc transmit the signal which can give location of the chopper within minutes. So location was known minute the chopper crashed.

2. The location was kept hidden from public, and a small team was sent to check that accident was successful, and if not, ensure the success of the accident.

3. And meanwhile, to show that "hectic" efforts are being made to locate YSR, Sukhoi plane was called, and 100s of commandos were dispatched and so forth.



Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. They come crawling out like unwanted bed bugs :)

What sort of "blackbox" are you referring to, that """ which can give location of the chopper within minutes """?



A bit of restraint and understanding of facts is called for.


The helo VT-APG, carried a dual frequency Emergency locater transmitter (121.5 vhf distress / 243.0 uhf distress)

There is a DGCA circular to say that 121.5 MHz would not be monitored from Feb 2009 onwards. So that left the helo with only 243.0Mhz.

So if there was indeed an automatic ELT transmission from the helo on impact or otherwise, it would have automatically been picked up on the satellites and there after this transmission would have triggered an international response with ICAO and others getting involved.

A NOTAM would have very quickly been issued and international and other flights transiting overhead the vicinity would have been alerted to keep a special watch for any distress signals. Many international flights overflying India on their way to and from eastern destinations would have easily been able to pickup such a signal and there would have been an immediate response and activation of emergency services. Distress frequencies are often automatically and continuously guarded on aircraft radio sets. The alarm from such a distress signal pickup cannot be ignored and will invariably set off a chain reaction that starts when the pilot picking up such a signal reports it to the ATC.

243.0 MHz is a line of sight transmission and the line of sight from 35-45,000 ft is some hundreds of kilometers. Per your conspiracy theory, pilots of many nationalities randomly flying overhead would have to be paid off.

You don't seem to understand or appreciate the immediate response that results when a distress signal is monitored.

Pilots respond instantaneously and instinctively to the distress of another pilot. The airwaves would have been filled with this news and the resulting chatter between pilots warning other pilots to watch for and monitor the distress would have been enormous.

Since the emergency services did not respond to a satellite alert, ergo, there was no transmission from VT-APG, impact or otherwise.

406 MHz transmitter was not carried or fitted on this helo


http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:LEZ ... clnk&gl=in

3. Indian Ground System

A typical ground system consists of an antenna to receive the signals from the satellites, a RF (Radio Frequency) system to strip the signals from the downlink frequency (1544.5 MHz), computers to determine locations, and collate & distribute satellite derived information to the appropriate agencies. The antenna, RF system and processing computers are generally grouped together to form a LUT. The computers, which collate and distribute location information to Rescue Coordination Centres (RCCs) are generally grouped together to form a Mission Control Centre (MCC). Fig 2 represents the Indian LUT - MCC block diagram.

Two LEOLUTs (Low Earth Orbiting LUTs) were set up by ISRO, one each at Bangalore (1989) and Lucknow (1990). The Indian Mission Control Centre (INMCC), responsible for coordination with the rescue coordination centers, and other international MCCs is co-located with the Bangalore LUT. The Indian GEOSAR (Geo-stationary Earth Orbiting SAR) system with one GEOLUT at Bangalore and Indian satellite INSAT-2A became operational in 1992. The INMCC is connected with 4 RCCs of the Airports Authority of India (AAI) situated at 4 metro airports (Chennai, Mumbai, Delhi and Kolkata) and Maritime Rescue Coordination Centres (MRCCs) of Coast Guard situated at Chennai Mumbai. The INMCC operates 24h a day, 7 days a week and relays the distress alerts to RCCs and MRCCs using Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunication Network (AFTN) communication system provided by the Airport Authority of India (AAI). INMCC also implemented Internet based data communication system using “FTP” and “Email”, which is already operational with external MCCs.

As the satellites orbits the earth, they receive any signal being transmitted in the emergency bands by distress beacons operating on any (or all three) of the distress frequency bands 121.5 MHz, 243 MHz and 406 MHz. Once received, the signals are immediately retransmitted back to earth in a process referred to as the "bent pipe" (repeater) mode. In this mode, the satellite must be in the visibility of a LUT for the signals to be received and processed, or else the information is essentially lost. Because the 406 MHz signals contain identifying data, they can easily be stored and then later processed. By tagging each unique 406 MHz signal with the time, the ground based computers can determine locations anywhere in the world. Hence, the storing and subsequent transmission of 406 MHz data is referred to as the "global" mode.

The location of beacons is determined by Doppler principle using the relative motion between the satellite and the beacon. With the precise measurement of Doppler and the knowledge of satellite orbit, position of distress signal can be estimated. The accuracy of Doppler location is within 20km for 121.5/243 MHz beacons and within 5 km for 406 MHz beacons. The new generation 406 MHz beacons are capable of providing GPS location within 100 m accuracy.

2.1 User Services

INMCC, ISO 9001/2000 certified, provides operational support through an organised system as per international Cospas-Sarsat standard. The system is designed to operate automatically with minimum operator interaction - manned only during office working hours (09:00 – 17:30 hrs, local time), Monday through Saturday. The availability of system is maintained higher than Cospas-Sarsat specifications (LUTs > 95%, INMCC > 99% in a year). INMCC at Bangalore provides following services to user community:
Satellite based distress-alerting services to marine, air and land based users in the sub-continent, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 365 days in a year.
Maintenance and operation of national beacon registration database to provide information on vessel, aircraft or person in distress to national and international SAR agencies
Necessary training to rescue agencies and organize system awareness and promotional activities for various user communities/segments
Support and planning of beacon and system test exercises as per requirements
Allocation of serial numbers, maintenance of an inventory, and necessary support and guidance to users for beacon coding

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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby ramana » 11 Sep 2009 23:05

Shoba De in TOI




It's a shame that it takes a tragedy to raise tricky questions. But going by the sms-es doing the rounds, here's one that needs to be addressed in the spirit of fair and free enquiry - "Billed as 'India's biggest ever search' 5,000 jawans, an ISRO remote-sensing aircraft, a Sukhoi, 14 search and rescue choppers, the forest department police, paramilitary forces, Chenchu tribal guides.... all mobilized within three short hours for a missing CM. Was the Central government sleeping during the 60 hours of Mumbai terror attacks on 26/11?"


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Re: Political will and speed of emergency response

Postby AnimeshP » 11 Sep 2009 23:22

I have always believed that in India the problem is of Political Will and not of capability. The Indian state has enoromous capability (in terms of administrative & security infrastructure) but it is the political will that falls short in most cases.
Wherever political will matches the administrative capability, we see the results (e.g. NaMo in Gujarat, Nitish in Bihar, even YSR in AP just to name a few).


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