Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

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Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Amitava » 11 Sep 2009 09:36

Chinese choppers dropping food (special agents already on the ground?)
Two Chinese helicopters have reportedly violated the Indian air space in recent months in Leh area of north Jammu and Kashmir during which they air-dropped some canned food in barren land at Chumar, northeast of this Himalayan town, along the border.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News/india/China-violates-Indian-air-space-made-many-incursions-in-Leh/Article1-448535.aspx

China makes ‘inroads’- Beijing paves patrol path, India stuck in red tape.
New Delhi, Sept. 10: China has built roads well into India’s territory at a time Indian road construction to the Line of Actual Control (LAC), particularly in Arunachal Pradesh, is caught in red tape.

Beijing has constructed motorable roads running parallel to the LAC and has paved approach roads into Arunachal Pradesh, Indian sources have disclosed, elevating the nature of alleged transgressions from the usual incursions to building infrastructure.
.....
By the time India constructs roads reaching the LAC, the character of the actual line would have changed irreversibly, it is feared. ....
“With approach roads on their (Chinese) side and the absence of them on our side, their patrolling parties have more opportunities to collect the stuff and dump it back on what they perceive as the LAC,” said an official.


http://telegraphindia.com/1090911/jsp/frontpage/story_11480339.jsp

Beginnings of a gradual push for a permanent change?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory

Postby Bhaskar » 11 Sep 2009 09:43

I realize that these instances of Chinese troops invading into Indian Territory are rising and these incursions must be taken seriously, but I would still IB4TL this thread.
Maybe the Mods can move this post by Amitava to the right thread.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory

Postby Vikas » 11 Sep 2009 09:55

Why would chinese drop food packets in Indians territory that too in an uninhibited region and that too in J&K of all the places ? Something does not add up.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory

Postby Ricky » 11 Sep 2009 09:58

We must do something, CHina continues to eat into our land from Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh, saw in news the other day, a guest from Leh said that China has already taken up 90 Km in length and 18 km in width of our land in Ladakh and where China used to be not seen for 25 KM in the past, they are at 150 mts distance now, so we losing our land to China literally every passing moment and we are either doing nothing or we cant do anything :cry: :cry:

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory

Postby Rishi » 11 Sep 2009 10:00

Let us keep this thread for a while. Please post news of incursions. And let us not have the :(( and hysteria of the Chinese Horde is coming, IA is unprepared, OMG, OMG! :eek: kind.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby RayC » 11 Sep 2009 10:44

None of this:



Image

:rotfl:

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby RayC » 11 Sep 2009 10:46

Instead, something like this:

Image

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ricky » 11 Sep 2009 11:13

Why cant our troops have permanant positions up on those mountains? It is a must till the time we have developed roads and infrastructure to know of any Chinese adverse designs :( :cry:

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MEA, Army react differently over Chinese incursions

Postby Amitava » 12 Sep 2009 06:04

From ToI, 7 Sep 2009:
While Army officials admitted that Chinese soldiers ventured into India and promised to take up the matter, the foreign ministry stated that this wasn't an issue at all and that India and China shared "one of the most peaceful" borders.
...
"Let me go on record to say that this (border with China) has been one of the most peaceful boundaries that we have had as compared to other boundary lines with other countries," stated Krishna, ...

A senior Army official said though the Chinese used to leave behind signs of incursions in the past too, this is for the first time that they painted "China" over rocks with red spray paint. Last week, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor had said that India had lodged a strong protest with the Chinese authorities on the issue of recent incursion of a helicopter into Indian territory.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/MEA-Army-react-differently-over-Chinese-incursions/articleshow/4983271.cms

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Amitava » 12 Sep 2009 06:30

Ricky wrote:Why cant our troops have permanant positions up on those mountains? It is a must till the time we have developed roads and infrastructure to know of any Chinese adverse designs :( :cry:


You can slice a mango in more than one way.

One way of slicing is

slice 3: lack of planning, which in turn is due to
slice 2: lack of decision, which in turn is due to
slice 1: lack of will

We as a nation, (or people) need to have a collective will on where we want to go. Only when we know our destination will we know which direction to travel, and then we'll know where to pave the road and which brook to bridge.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory

Postby Bhaskar » 12 Sep 2009 07:12

Rishi wrote:Let us keep this thread for a while. Please post news of incursions. And let us not have the :(( and hysteria of the Chinese Horde is coming, IA is unprepared, OMG, OMG! :eek: kind.

Thank you for keeping this thread...

Anyone wondered if Pakistan and China have both joined forces and are pressuring India one by one? China invades into certain parts of our country meanwhile Pakistan shoots rockets into the Indian territory. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 001451.cms
Signs of a new war?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Rishi » 12 Sep 2009 10:47

Beware: Dragon Trap

Dragon’s war dance

India is in serious danger of sliding into a 1962-type dragon trap. It needs high-quality statecraft to ensure that it does not get caught in China's elaborate efforts to ratchet up border tensions, says Brahma Chellaney

DNA newspaper, September 11, 2009

The 32-day surprise Chinese invasion in 1962 lasted longer than the 1965 and 1971 wars with Pakistan and claimed the lives of more Indian soldiers than any other aggression faced by India since independence, with the exception of 1971. Yet the myth still being peddled internationally is that 1962 was a brief war. Today, as Chinese cross-frontier incursions grow and border tensions rise, the situation is becoming similar to the one that prevailed in the run-up to 1962. The several parallels raise the spectre of another Chinese attack.

First, like in the pre-1962 period, it has become commonplace internationally to speak of India and China in the same breadth. The aim of “Mao’s India war”, as Harvard scholar Roderick MacFarquhar has called it, was large political: To cut India to size by demolishing what it represented — a democratic alternative to the Chinese autocracy. The brute force with which Mao Zedong humiliated India helped discredit the Indian model, boost China’s international image and consolidate Mao’s internal power. The return of the China-India pairing decades later is something Beijing viscerally loathes.

Second, the Dalai Lama’s flight to India in 1959 — and the ready sanctuary he got there — paved the way for the Chinese military attack. Today, 50 years after his escape, the exiled Tibetan leader stands as a bigger challenge than ever for China, as underscored by Beijing’s stepped-up vilification campaign against him. With Beijing now treating the Dalai Lama as its Enemy No. 1, India has come under greater Chinese pressure to curb his activities and those of his government-in-exile. The continuing security clampdown in Tibet since the March 2008 Tibetan uprising parallels the harsh Chinese crackdown in Tibet during 1959-62.

Three, the present pattern of cross-frontier incursions and other border incidents, as well as new force deployments and mutual recriminations, is redolent of the situation that prevailed before the 1962 war. According to the Indian army chief, “This year, there were 21 incursions in June, 20 in July and 24 in August.” Such is the rising graph of Chinese cross-border forays that such intrusions nearly doubled in two years, from 140 in 2006 to 270 in 2008. Little surprise the defence minister warned as early as April 2008 that there is “no room for complacency” along the Himalayan frontier.

Four, the 1962 invasion occurred against the backdrop of China instigating and arming insurgents in India’s northeast. Although such activities ceased after Mao’s 1976 death, China seems to be coming full circle today, with Chinese-made arms increasingly flowing into guerrilla ranks in northeastern India, including via Burma. India has taken up this matter with Beijing at the foreign minister-level. Indeed, Pakistan-based terrorists targeting India now rely on Chinese arms — from the AK-56 assault rifles to the Type 86 grenades made by China’s state-owned Norinco firm. To add to India’s woes, Beijing has blocked efforts to get the United Nations to designate as a terrorist the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Muhammad group chief, Masood Azhar.

Five, then-Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru’s slogan, “Hindi-Chini bhai bhai” (Indians and Chinese are brothers), is today matched by the “Chindia” concept, which — disregarding the rivalry and antagonisms — blends the two Asian giants together.

Sixth, just as India had retreated to a defensive position in the border negotiations with Beijing in the early 1960s after having undermined its leverage by accepting the “Tibet region of China” through the 1954 Panchsheel Agreement, New Delhi similarly has been left in the unenviable position today of having to fend off Chinese territorial demands. Whatever leverage India still had on the Tibet issue was surrendered in 2003 when it shifted its position from Tibet being an “autonomous” region within China to it being “part of the territory of the People’s Republic of China.” Little surprise the spotlight now is on China’s Tibet-linked claim to Arunachal Pradesh than on Tibet’s status itself.

That explains why Beijing invested so much political capital over the years in getting India to gradually accept Tibet as part of China. Its success on that score narrows the dispute to what it claims today. The issue in 1962 was Aksai Chin; the issue now is Arunachal, particularly Tawang. But had Beijing really believed Tawang was part of Tibet and hence belonged to China, the Chinese military would have held on to that critical corridor after its capture in 1962, just as it kept the territorial gains of that war in Ladakh.

With India in serious danger of sliding into a 1962-type dragon trap, the country needs high-quality statecraft to handle the present situation and ensure the nation is not again told what Nehru stated the day China attacked — that Beijing returned “evil for good.”

Brahma Chellaney is professor at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Rishi » 12 Sep 2009 11:31

Excellent summary:

http://www.idsa.in/publications/stratco ... 100909.htm

What do Chinese intrusions across the Line of Actual Control Tell India?
Pushpita Das

September 10, 2009

A number of Chinese border intrusions across the Line of Actual Control have been reported in recent months. One such event near Mount Gya in the Chumar sector of Ladakh saw Chinese troops intruding 1.5 kilometres inside Indian territory and writing “China” on the rocks with red paint. The intrusion was first noticed by an Indian patrol team on July 31, 2009. An earlier incident of Chinese intrusion in this area reportedly took place on June 21st, when two Chinese M1 helicopters violated the Indian airspace and air dropped canned food at Chumar. While admitting that such an intrusion has indeed taken place, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor played down the episode saying that the intrusion might have taken place because of navigational error. He also went on to state that such intrusions are not new and have been taking place for years. Minister of External Affairs, S. M. Krishna, also said that the border between India and China in the Ladakh sector is ‘most peaceful’ and such cases of intrusion would be sorted out through the ‘inbuilt mechanism’.

This ‘inbuilt mechanism’ is the Border Personnel Meetings/Flag Meetings, which take place at regular intervals. The establishment of this mechanism for resolving such border transgressions can be traced to the Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquillity along the Line of Actual Control in the China-India Border Areas of 1993. As far as the recent case of intrusion is concerned, it is reported that the regiment posted in the area under 14 Corps had taken up the matter with their Chinese counterparts during such a border meeting in August and had also lodged a formal protest. The Chinese side, however, denied the charges and maintained that border patrols by Chinese troops were ‘strictly conducted according to the law’ and they had never violated India’s land or air space. Despite Chinese denials, the fact remains that China has been intruding inside the Indian territory all along the LAC. The Indian Army has reportedly recorded 270 border violations and nearly 2,300 cases of “aggressive border patrolling” by Chinese soldiers last year. The point to note is that earlier such intrusions were frequently reported from Arunachal Pradesh, while lately incidences of Chinese border transgression are increasingly being reported from Sikkim and Ladakh, hitherto considered as peaceful sectors of the LAC.

The reason behind the heightened Chinese incursions has been falsely attributed by many to the on-going strengthening of Indian military capability along the LAC – the deployment of Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter jets in Tezpur, raising of two additional mountain divisions for the defence of Arunachal Pradesh, the landing of AN-32 transport plane at Daulat Begh Oldhi, the proposed deployment of an AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) plane as ‘force multiplier’ in the Ladakh sector, and the construction of 27 strategic roads along the India-China border. It is being argued that Chinese border intrusions are a reaction to these developments. The reality is, however, quite different. China does not need any of these excuses to transgress the LAC. It has been doing so in the past and will continue to do so in future. The unsettled border and these incursions are nothing but a manifestation of the uneasy relationship which the two countries share. The slow and steady emergence of India as a strong power in Asia is not looked upon favourably by China. And this sentiment also adversely impacts on the attempts to resolve the border dispute amicably.

China has had serious border disputes with many of its neighbours, and it chose to resolve those disputes only when it felt that the concerned neighbour was weak or when the latter acknowledged China’s superior status. In the early 1960s, in a bid to demonstrate to the world that it was a responsible country and a good neighbour, China concluded border agreements with Burma, Nepal, Afghanistan and Pakistan. These countries were militarily weak neighbours and did not have any serious ideological or political differences with China. Notably, many of those border agreements were preceded by Chinese propaganda and border incursions by Chinese troops. At this time, however, China did not settle its borders with India, Bhutan, Soviet Union, Vietnam and Laos. It even engaged in wars with India in 1962, Soviet Union in 1969 and Vietnam in 1979.

As is often said, the best indication of strained relation between two countries is tensions across their shared borders. In the case of India, China felt threatened by India’s standing in the international forums and especially by its leadership role among the third world countries. This feeling of unease was compounded by the Khampa rebellion in Tibet and the subsequent flight of the Dalai Lama to India in 1959. The strained relations between the two countries were manifested by Chinese territorial claims and increased skirmishes along the border, which culminated in the border war of 1962. As regards the Soviet Union, the ideological split and China’s attempt to supplant the USSR as the leader of the communist movement led to deteriorating relations, heightened border tensions and border clashes in 1969. Vietnam’s closer affinity for the Soviet Union gradually led to the souring of relations with China, which eventually culminated in the 1979 border war. China could not settle its borders with Bhutan and Laos, which chose to be guided by India and Vietnam, respectively, on the border issue.

The second phase of Chinese border settlements with its neighbours started with the break-up of the Soviet Union in 1991. Negotiations to settle the border with Moscow began in 1987, and China and Russia concluded the border agreement in 1991. China also negotiated separate border agreements with Tajikistan, Kyrgystan and Kazakhstan. Border negotiations with Vietnam had resumed almost immediately after the 1979 border war, and a final agreement on their land border was signed on December 30, 1999. Incidentally, the text of the Land Border Treaty is not available in the public domain. China also signed a border agreement with Laos in 1992. The point to note is that all these border settlements resulted only in minor territorial changes, despite China’s extravagant territorial claims.

Now, India and Bhutan are the only two countries with which China is yet to settle its border. In the case of Bhutan, news reports hinted that during the border talks in July 2005, Bhutan might have relented to Chinese pressure tactics and accepted a package deal. In 1996, Beijing had proposed the exchange of the 495 square kilometre area of Pasamlung and Jakarlung valleys in the northern borders of central Bhutan (which China claims) for Sinchulumpa, Dramana and Shakhtoe with an area of 269 sq km in north-west Bhutan. China has also been applying pressure tactics like large scale intrusions by Tibetan herdsmen and also by the PLA to keep Bhutanese border guards in tenterhooks and has also resorted to construction of roads inside Bhutanese territory. It appears that Bhutan is under pressure both from China and its own people to arrive at a final solution to the festering border problem, but till now there is no indication that it has been successful at arriving at an acceptable solution. {Was not aware of the Bhutan border talks and this "exchange"}

Intrusions by Chinese troops into Indian territory are signals meant to assert China’s growing political and military stature as well as means to test India’s resolve. Given India’s gradual emergence as a powerful military and economic power in Asia, China is unlikely to be keen on settling the border issue till such time India slumps into a period of weakness. Thus, for the foreseeable future, the India-China border is likely to be characterised by tensions, incursions and skirmishes, interspersed with endless border negotiations. Given this, India needs to be prepared for any eventuality and calibrate its responses to Chinese intrusions.

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Postby Amitava » 13 Sep 2009 18:31

From Tibetan Review last week

New Chinese intrusion into Ladakh first since India’s independence

(TibetanReview.net, Sep07, 2009). Chinese troops had entered 1.5 km into Indian Territory in Ladakh and put red paint marks and written "China” on boulders and rocks in an apparent lodging of territorial claim over the area, reported Indian newspapers and news services Sep 6. They said the apparent signs of intrusion were noticed by an Indian border patrol on Jul 31.

The intrusion had taken place near the 22,420-ft Mount Gya, situated at the tri-junction of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir, Spiti in Himachal Pradesh, and Tibet.

Mount Gya is said to be recognised as international border by both the countries since the days of British rule in India. The red markings were found as deep as 1.5 to 1.7 km of the Indian territory, reported the PTI news agency.

The border patrol discovered the red paint markings on various rocks and boulders along the Zulung La (pass) on July 31 and the Chinese had entered into the area and written "China" all over the place, the report cited official sources as saying.

An Indian Army spokesperson had declined to comment on the issue, while senior Army officials were cited as saying the issue was being downplayed as three of its Generals were currently in Beijing and Lhasa under an exchange programme.

However, this incident was said to have been viewed with seriousness by Indian officials as the Chinese had made foray into these areas for the first time since the country’s independence in 1947.


http://tibetanreview.net/news.php?id=4282

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby RayC » 13 Sep 2009 22:06

They have now intruded into Uttarakhand!!

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby SwamyG » 13 Sep 2009 22:08

Here is the news item on China's incursion in Uttarakhand

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2009 22:35

I hope our babus have made the 500+ page dossier ready.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Muppalla » 14 Sep 2009 05:04

Construction by Chinese army across Karakoram: J&K report

LEH (J&K): The Chinese army has done some construction activities along the international border across Karakoram ranges in Ladakh sector for the first time since the 1962 stand-off between the two countries with a report of Jammu and Kashmir government saying that they have been taking "land in inches and not in yards".

...
...
While Army tried to downplay this development, they, however acknowledged that some digging activity had been noticed. "There has been no report of concrete huts being built across Karakoram Pass. However, some digging has been noticed well inside Chinese territory," an Army spokesman said in a written reply to PTI.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby jaladipc » 14 Sep 2009 06:56

Rajnath questions govt's silence on Chinese 'incursions'
Demanding that the government come clean on the issue, Singh said, "India has suffered once in 1962 when the then government was not ready to accept (Chinese incursions into Indian territory)."

India had to face a humiliating defeat in the war that ensued after China encroached on Indian territory.

Singh reminded that then PM Jawaharlal Nehru had said there was nothing to worry. "They tried to push everything under the carpet for which India had to face consequences," Singh said.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Bhaskar » 14 Sep 2009 07:08

It would be foolish of China to attack India. Even though India might lose the war, India would be pushed for an alliance with the US, which I am sure China wouldn't want as it would not want it's two most powerful enemies combining forces.

China and India are both developing at a very close rate. China just wants to show who is the boss in Asia.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby jaladipc » 14 Sep 2009 07:38

Bhaskar wrote:It would be foolish of China to attack India. Even though India might lose the war, India would be pushed for an alliance with the US, which I am sure China wouldn't want as it would not want it's two most powerful enemies combining forces.

China and India are both developing at a very close rate. China just wants to show who is the boss in Asia.

And you think that US is coming to rescue us if we are at war with China?
And what sort of help you are expecting from US? monetary or military?

You might have to check with other possibilities of china checking US from not being part of the Indias defence against china just like we signed a treaty with russia during 71 from not letting china enter the game.

At this point China is a majority stake holder of US debt.It can simply arm twist US as per its own moves.
We gotta have to count on our age old partner .no other option left on the table.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Bhaskar » 14 Sep 2009 07:45

jaladipc wrote:And you think that US is coming to rescue us if we are at war with China?


Most certainly not, US would love India losing the war. As it would lower its competition and push India back a few years in Development. US would only give India some verbal support. After the war is over, India and US are going to be allies as India would want to be prepared to counter China the next time and US would want to stop China to get bigger than the US. In other words, US would use India to topple China as China is a greater threat...

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 14 Sep 2009 08:07

What is the need to bring the US into the picture here?
Why not talk of bolstring the armed forces troop numbers and its firepower? And transplant a pair of ball$ and some gray matter into our netas. The mentally rearded netas are responsible for the Indian army having 400 pieces of 155mm artillery in its stockpile.

Imagine even some tinpot dictatorship would have more 155mm howitzwers in its stockpile. Add to this about 60 numbers of Smerch launchers and probably lesser numbers of Pinakas, and the overall impression we get is that both the IA and the MOD were sleeping on their asses, and joining them was the MEA which did not see that the chinese were only trying hard to get India to accept "Tibet as part of China" in return for Chinese non interference in "Kashmir is a part of India", but had more sinister designs.

There is no way India is going to fight a modern war in arunachal or across the LAC. It is going to be another dukh bhari kahani of our soldiers dying because our politicians and top army brass to some extent did not feel the urgency to give them the equipment they needed.
India's army chief had said during kargil "we will fight with what we have", we all know what he meant.
I am willing to bet that more than a decade later, our army chief will be saying the same line if we go to a border war with china

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Y I Patel » 15 Sep 2009 09:34

China is approaching a critical moment in its internal politics - it is preparing ground for Chairman Hu's successor, with the possible nomination of Vice President Xi Jinping to the number two post on China's military commission (number one would be the Chairman himself).

Article from NYT on China's upcoming leadership transition

Few know of factions within Chinese leadership, but human nature being what it is, there are bound to be competitors to Xi Jinping, who may want to queer the pitch before he assumes a make or break office. In other words, someone may have been stirring the pot on LAC in hopes that Jinping will have to deal with the fallout.

The stakes are just not high enough, unlike in an India-Pak border situation, so a cross-LAC skirmish would have very little chance of escalating into something bigger. And a limited conflict cannot but end up achieving limited objectives, as Gen Malik pointed out after Kargil. The aftermath of such a skirmish would be very ambiguous, even if China were to end up with a marginally upper hand. Such an ambiguous outcome would present fertile ground for those who stand to lose out on this upcoming succession. For them, it would be a controllable risk and a promising opportunity to shake up the existing hierarchy in the ensuing internal turmoil.

Taking a long view, this is why business relations are so important - when politics cause relations to sour, there will be sufficient vested interests to get them back on track. So this will be a test of those in China and India who have a different vision of how the stalemated relationship should develop. They will be the ones who point out opportunities where China and India can and should cooperate - such as in the upcoming negotiations on Carbon caps during the Copenhagen meet, and in the perennial North-South slugfests on GATT. For the sake of the two, one hopes that the quiet voices urging cooperation over confrontation prevail.

But if they don't, this will be a 1962 in reverse. China's actions stem from an exaggerated sense of importance and power. Arrogance like this caused Nehru to over-extend India dangerously against an adversary who chose a deliberate and painstakingly prepared response. This time, China will be the one who ends up with a bloody nose and a bruised ego.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Bhaskar » 16 Sep 2009 04:04

This news gives me the shivers... It almost feels like it is the calm before the storm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjACK71QQ-w


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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby AnimeshP » 16 Sep 2009 05:46

Y I Patel wrote:China is approaching a critical moment in its internal politics - it is preparing ground for Chairman Hu's successor, with the possible nomination of Vice President Xi Jinping to the number two post on China's military commission (number one would be the Chairman himself).



I think Xi Jinping's appointment to the CMC post has more to do with how they handle Internal Security (possibly a fallout of the Urumqi riots) .. reposting an old ATimes article with relevant excerpts ...
It is believed that when Hu left Beijing he entrusted Vice President Xi Jinping to oversee state affairs. Xi heads an ad hoc group set up after the riots in Tibet in March of 2008 to maintain political and social stability. As such, Xi should have been the top leader involved in the handling of the Xinjiang violence. It would have been an important opportunity to navigate a complicated situation.

But Xi, despite his sixth-ranked position in the nine-member politburo standing committee, has no authority to command PLA troops.

In China, the top command of the armed forces is the Central Military Commission (CMC), of which Hu is the chairman. In this system, only the CMC chairman or a vice chairman, with the authorization of the chairman, can give an order to mobilize the PLA. The two current CMC vice chairmen, General Guo Bohiong and General Xu Caihou, are not members of the politburo standing committee.

And while Xi is higher in rank, he has no authority over Guo or Xu. Under the circumstances, had Hu authorized Guo or Xu to move troops into Xinjiang, there would have been confusion in coordinating the crackdown. Only Hu's return would solve the problem. (In 2001, Hu had full authority to handle the Sino-US air collision incident, which involved the PLA, because he was also the first vice chairman of the CMC.)

The ethnic riots in Urumqi have revealed a loophole in China's political and military structure. None of the politburo standing committee members except Hu are CMC members. As indicated, when PLA troops are needed to maintain public order, problems occur if Hu is unavailable. To solve this dilemma, some analysts believe a politburo member, presumably Xi, will soon be appointed CMC vice chairman.


link

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby AnimeshP » 16 Sep 2009 10:31

Bhaskar wrote:This news gives me the shivers... It almost feels like it is the calm before the storm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjACK71QQ-w


The news report does not shed any new light on tensions in the border region. The conjecture by the journalist that there seems to be tension along the border because of heavy IA presence seems kinda uninformed. The IA has always had a heavy presence in Ladakh especially around Pangong-Tso lake.

But honestly, I am kinda confused with all the contradictory reports coming out (unsourced reports saying that border violations did occur and official sources saying that it is routine).

On the one hand, one thing I do remember is that when I visited the Pangong-tso lake region in the early 90's, the folks who were posted there also mentioned that chinese patrols strayed over into Indian territory and vice-versa due to lack of unmarked borders.

On the other hand, our 1962 experience and Sumdorong Chu incident make me think twice of the Chinese motives.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby csharma » 16 Sep 2009 10:38

Good discussion on NDTV on the China incursion thing.

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_p ... id=1157351

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2009 21:19

Please help by posting short synopsis as to what it says. If you took the trouble to watch you can also post a short three line summary.Thanks, ramana

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby anishns » 16 Sep 2009 22:53

Basically, the MEA represented by Mr. Tharoor claiming that the media is over reacting whereas the other panel of analysts including Mr.Parthasarthy and Rear Admiral Mr. Menon that we are under reacting to the perceived threat from the Chinese side as they are not interested in territory but trying to impose their might on India ("Teach a lesson") as well as other nations including Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia etc. especially since the advent of Obama. So, these panelists are suggesting that for God's sake India should not be complacent and do whatever it can to thwart off this threat including fast & transparent acquisition of Artillery and MMRCA.

According to an internet poll by NDTV 70% of the voters said that India is over reacting as opposed to 30% who claim that its only the media which is creating a frenzy

ramana wrote:Please help by posting short synopsis as to what it says. If you took the trouble to watch you can also post a short three line summary.Thanks, ramana

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2009 22:59

Thanks. We need to make short summaries of the PRC pressure and Indian reactions and try to see whats happening.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Tamang » 17 Sep 2009 00:16

anishns wrote:According to an internet poll by NDTV 70% of the voters said that India is over reacting as opposed to 30% who claim that its only the media which is creating a frenzy


IIRC 70% was for India under-reacting.

BTW in other news

Indian army on 'Operation Alert' along China border

NEW DELHI: The Indian army has mobilised its troops to forwards posts in Jammu and Kashmir and along the northeastern border with China in an exercise named Operation Alert, a defence official said on Wednesday.

"About 50% troops on the Line of Actual Control have been mobilised to forward posts. The mobilisation would last for nearly a month," a senior Indian army official said.

The mobilisation of Indian troops has come close on the heels of a high-profile war game launched by the Chinese army. China had deployed close to 50,000 troops in its biggest cross-country tactical mobilisation exercise that has sent alarm bells ringing in India as it is seen as Beijing's efforts to improve its ability to deploy troops in Tibet whenever reinforcements are required.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby anishns » 17 Sep 2009 00:40

oops! Tamang that's right....70% of them said that India is under reacting to the threat posed by China

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2009 00:42

Op-ed from G>Parthasarathy in Pioneer

EDITS | Thursday, September 17, 2009 | Email | Print |


Rhetoric is best avoided

G Parthasarathy

One abiding feature of our relations with China is our propensity to swing from elation and ecstasy to despondency and despair. Shortly after the visit of Prime Minister Wen Jiabao to India in April 2005, our media, China scholars and sections of our Mandarin speaking Mandarins proclaimed that the festering ‘boundary question’ with China was all but resolved. The Manmohan Singh-Wen Jiabao Declaration asserted that India-China relations had acquired “global and strategic significance” and that the two countries would establish a “strategic and cooperative partnership for peace and prosperity”.

An Agreement laying ‘Political Parameters and Guiding Principles’ for resolving the border issue said that while respecting the Line of Actual Control, India and China would reach a boundary settlement which shall “safeguard due interests of their settled populations in the border areas”, while using “modern cartographic and surveying practices and joint surveys”. Our ‘scholars’ and media ecstatically proclaimed that the reference to settled populations in border areas meant that China had given up its claims to Tawang in Arunachal Pradesh. They were in for a rude shock. Within a year, China started regularly and aggressively asserting that the whole of Arunachal was a part of ‘South Tibet’.

While talks on resolving the border issue have continued regularly after the visit of Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi to China in December 1988, the problem of Chinese intrusions into our territory arises from the fact that while the Line of Control is defined and demarcated by mutual agreement between India and Pakistan in Jammu & Kashmir, the Line of Actual Control, which both sides have pledged to determine and respect, along the China-India border has never been demarcated. It was decided that the issue of demarcation would be addressed by India and China exchanging maps about the precise location of the LOAC and reconciling differences through negotiations.

But, while maps were exchanged on the Central Sector (adjoining Uttarakhand) and India provided its maps on the LOAC in the western sector (Ladakh) to China in 2002, the latter has refused to provide maps outlining its version of where the LOAC lies, either on the western sector or on the eastern sector (Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh). In the face of this impasse, it was decided in 2003 that the two countries would seek a political solution to the border issue.

Despite having agreed in principle that there could not be any change in the status of populated areas in 2005, China is now insistent that it would expect territorial concessions in Arunachal Pradesh, if it is to agree to Indian claims in Ladakh. It is because of the importance of Tawang as a Buddhist Monastery town where the sixth Dalai Lama was born that China seeks control of this area to secure a fig leaf of legitimacy for its rule in Tibet.

India has firmly rejected Chinese claims to Tawang with senior Government leaders like Mr Pranab Mukherjee asserting: “Any elected Government in India is not permitted by our Constitution to part with any part of our land that sends representatives to the Indian Parliament”. Thus, as long as China remains insistent on its claims over Arunachal Pradesh, there can be no settlement of the border issue. India has also indicated that it intends to improve communications along its road borders with China, boost its military presence in Arunachal Pradesh and strengthen its eastern air defences.

The entire problem of border intrusions today arises because China wishes to keep its options open by not spelling out where in its view the LOAC lies so that it can continue to intrude into populated areas in Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh at a time and place of its choosing and undermine public confidence in our border areas in New Delhi’s will and ability to defend our territorial integrity.

Apart from border issues, China has made every effort to undermine Indian security interests in recent years. Pakistan is being assisted by China in its boosting of nuclear weapons capabilities by supply of Plutonium reactors and reprocessing facilities. Chinese supplies of ballistic and cruise missiles to Pakistan continue, as does the supply of fighter aircraft and frigates. China assists Pakistan-sponsored terrorism by blocking moves in the UN Security Council for action against the Jamaat-ud-Dawa’h and the head of the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed.

While pledging aid for hydro-electric projects in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, China sees to block assistance for economic development in Arunachal Pradesh in the Asian Development Bank on the ground that its status is ‘disputed’. More ominously, there is now evidence that China is using areas controlled by its protégés in the Kachin State of Myanmar to arm and train north-eastern insurgent groups in Manipur and elsewhere. In its Yunnan Province, China similarly seeks to undermine India’s relations with Nepal. Despite this, our Mandarins talk glibly of a ‘strategic and co-operative partnership’ with China.

There are areas like climate change, WTO issues and the development of a multi-polar world order, where India and China have shared interests. China’s actions along and across India’s borders and its efforts to undermine India’s regional influence by its policies in countries like Pakistan and Nepal will, however, remain sources of differences. We courted disaster in 1962 because we glossed over realities and misled public opinion, domestically and globally. Our Mandarins in South Block will do well to remember this when misrepresenting and avoiding a focus of attention on the realities of our relations with China.

We should, however, avoid resorting to rhetoric that escalates tensions. Rather than talking about how we propose to increase troop levels, or modernise our defences along our borders with China, we should upgrade road communications along our borders and expedite the long-delayed procurement of essential items like fighter aircraft and artillery, so that China and the whole world recognise our determination to safeguard our territorial integrity. In the meantime, there needs to be continuing dialogue with China to ensure that incidents do not occur along our borders that could escalate tensions.

We should remember that China still has festering disputes on its maritime boundaries with Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia and that China settles its border disputes only when a weakened neighbour succumbs to its pressures. The Chinese respect national power and will respect India only if our economic and military strength warrants respect for us as a people and as a nation.



Except for the added item of freezing the current status quo this is what B. Raman also said.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Sep 2009 02:08

The Chinese respect national power and will respect India only if our economic and military strength warrants respect for us as a people and as a nation.



You mean they are not cognizant of the fact that Chinese have killed more Chinese than Indian, Japanese, Americans, Russians, Vietnamese put together in the last 70 years. That they feel India owes them respect for shiny empty buildings in Shanghai. Yes those Indians who are intimidated by Chinese roads will give them respect. And I see where India's roads are dusty, Chinese will not respect them.

At the risk of being cynical, Indians don't need a war with China-the Chinese are doing a fine job of killing Chinese, and more efficiently than Indian soldiers ever could.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Pranav » 17 Sep 2009 08:24

Take all precautions, improve infrastructure. But one needs to be wary of the press making a mountain out of a mole-hill, beating the war drums etc. That was the gist of the B. Raman article a few days back.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Sep 2009 08:53

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 019445.cms

"About 50% troops on the Line of Actual Control have been mobilised to forward posts. The mobilisation would last for nearly a month," a senior Indian army official said.

The mobilisation of Indian troops has come close on the heels of a high-profile war game launched by the Chinese army.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby anishns » 17 Sep 2009 10:42

So, Sanjay no offence but, are you in anyway implying that since the chinese are doing a fine job of killing their own people, we as dharmic Indians should just stand on the side and watch the show. What if the chinese have already killed all those who were against the China of today and now the rest that are left are vying for some Indian blood.....something to think about....no?

sanjaykumar wrote:At the risk of being cynical, Indians don't need a war with China-the Chinese are doing a fine job of killing Chinese, and more efficiently than Indian soldiers ever could.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby anishns » 17 Sep 2009 10:53

Here you go guys!!! More Chai-Biskoot......thanks to the Indian Tax-Payer

India gets serious, NSA calls meet over Chinese incursions

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 021212.cms

I am just hoping against hope that the following adages apply:

"Der Aaye Durust Aaye!"
"Subah ka bhoola jab shaam ko ghar aa jaaye to usko bhoola nahin kehte"
"Kaal kare so aaj kar....aaj kare so ab"

:roll:


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