Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

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Jarita
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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 10 Jan 2010 23:20

Just spoke to some folks. Seems the maximum territory loss was under BJP and UPA governments. This erosion was nada to min under IG and even RG/PVNR.
Please dont ask me to post links. I don't have any. This is based on phone calls.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 11 Jan 2010 04:35

^^^ Is there a particular reason why this thread is not seeing more action. We LOST territory guys. LOST it for a song.
Can we shift focus from the occupied North Western territories of India

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Sanjay M » 11 Jan 2010 06:39

Jarita wrote:Just spoke to some folks. Seems the maximum territory loss was under BJP and UPA governments. This erosion was nada to min under IG and even RG/PVNR.
Please dont ask me to post links. I don't have any. This is based on phone calls.


To me, this sounds like a false diagnosis. I don't see that IG/RG/etc were more vigilant on security than BJP. To me, it looks more like China got more nervous and more proactive, once they saw real nationalists come to power in India.

If China wasn't as active on land-theft during IG/RG/etc, then those leaders were simply getting a free ride, and not necessarily doing more for national security than BJP.

The problem is that there is no market for international security in India. Nobody really cares.
If it was the United States, they would be up in arms over the slightest encroachment.

But not us - this is the reality that pierces our "shooparpawar" bubble.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Sanjay M » 11 Jan 2010 06:46

Jarita wrote:^^^ Is there a particular reason why this thread is not seeing more action. We LOST territory guys. LOST it for a song.
Can we shift focus from the occupied North Western territories of India


It's quite the farce, isn't it?

We'll spend billions on aircraft carriers, because these are supposed to give us credibility through a "blue water navy".
We spend money on nuclear weapons and IRBMs, because these are supposed to give us a "credible minimum deterrent"

But when the Chinese are stealing our land right out from under our noses, then what kind of credibility do we really have? Which "shooparpawar" allows this?
Who would really take us seriously, when we simply let others walk all over us?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby pgbhat » 11 Jan 2010 06:51

:((

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 11 Jan 2010 06:59

Wow! One person is bothered abt territorial losses.
Frankly, I don;t give a damn abt what the world thinks of us - superpower or not, as long as we can protect our territory, allow our people to live like human beings by feeding them and protecting their honour. That's it.
There is too much hot air floating around (it started in the 90's) about superpower, silly liberal concepts etc.
This is all and well once a country is over the hump - sovereignity, food etc. But it is a bit much in India given our stage of development and the threats we face.
Any self respecting country would have given China a kick in the ass. Hey, even Vietnam is resisting China.
We have not. Big reason could be corruption of politicians as I am hearing through people. They don;t care abt this country. Just care about the billions in their bank account and the lives of their descendents in Europe and America.
Problem is that we have not made these guys accountable. Any traitor or person who compromises our territory/sovereignity should have a big brand on their forehead that says "Traitor" as should all their descendents. They need to feel the fear.
Anyways, I digress. The point it how to we "f&*k" China so that we get our territory back. They are busy importing perishable raw materials from India (and we are sending it to them). When those raw materials are gone we will ave to import them from ROW.

Also would be great if we put some of the energy we put on occupied western territories of India on China. It will be productive

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Sanjay M » 11 Jan 2010 07:09

It's not corruption of politicians, who some on this board like to refer to as "a breed apart"

No, the corruption is at the grassroots level - the people themselves don't have the ethics to care about theft of our land. To them, it's some distant abstract issue which doesn't immediately touch their lives.
When the people themselves don't care, then why should we expect the politicians to, when the people aren't going to hold them accountable for it?

The only thing to do now, is to wait for China to take another inch, and then pounce on them for it. Then that will be the moment to fight over the yards and miles.

Yes, we might lose a lot of people, but at the same time it will show the Chinese that their "take by inches" approach can't hold its ground with us.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 11 Jan 2010 07:12

What is stopping us from taking our inches back by following their approach

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 11 Jan 2010 08:09

Last year, Chinese troops had entered nearly 1.5 km into the Indian territory on July 31 near Mount Gya, recognised as International border by India and China, and painted boulders and rocks with "China" and "Chin9" in red spray paint.


Is it fair to assume that the maximum depth of incursion is 1.5km ?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 11 Jan 2010 08:41

Growing up my mother used to tell us kids about this inch by inch incursion of the CHinese. She kept hearing about it through family.
if my mother knew about it, for sure the govt knew about it. What were they doing?

Anyways, I am struggling with this right now but could someone actually create a map of India and highlight the territory that is occupied. It will go a long way in setting baselines.

Thank you in advance

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chanakyaa » 11 Jan 2010 09:00

The only thing to do now, is to wait for China to take another inch, and then pounce on them for it. Then that will be the moment to fight over the yards and miles.

Yes, we might lose a lot of people, but at the same time it will show the Chinese that their "take by inches" approach can't hold its ground with us.


Sanjay sir,
Everything you are saying is 100% correct but the problem is when another inch is taken from us, who is going to tell us that that an inch was taken. May be some similar report will come out after 20 more years when another 20 km depth of land is taken by PRC. I bet the authorities knew all along that we were loosing the land but nobody bothered to do anything because GoI probably didn't even know what to do with such inch-by-inch invasion by PRC, so they didn't even bother to tell the people.

No party has any guts/backbone to raise arms against TSP or PRC. Wars are destructive and can put back several decades back on the path of economic prosperity. Nobody wants to take ownership of such task. And, so does PRC, and that is why those f*$kers are bleeding us inch-by-inch. And, may I add, raising arms against is PRC is not very easy not on the grounds of capabilities of armed forces but unkil wants absolute stability in PRC at any cost. They may hate PRC but would not want business in PRC disturbed and if that means telling India to shut up. Remember 70% of good flowing to unkil comes from PRC and unkil has as much interest in protecting it as much as PRC.

Wouldn't it be nice to have underground sicret societies of desis who utterly, devoutly love their country, influence micro and macro decisions in India through like minded politicians and bureaucrats. That is the only way to save the border and save the country from impotent politicians and thugs. I understand it is a tough task but what are the alternatives?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2010 09:07

nothing is going to change until we make an example of a particular sector and wipe out a couple hundred PLA incursive soldiers one dark night.

until then, everything is useless.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chanakyaa » 11 Jan 2010 09:24

Okay but, Sir, who is "we"? There is no "we" and that is my whole point. Are we counting on MMS or Madam to undertake this glorious adventure? Forget 100, why not start with 1 soldier. Let keep things simple.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby RamaY » 11 Jan 2010 09:36

I am curious to know RayC-ji's response to this news item.

What is BSF doing all these years? Do they really need GOI approval to do their basic duty?

PS: he is the only known person to me from armed forces. Nothing personal.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby negi » 11 Jan 2010 09:48

Come on guys this is just sensationalism and a case of storm in a tea cup , DDM is known to raise a hue and cry over small incursions by the PLA . Trust me GOI will come out with a 500 page report and debunk all this and explain how the area under question was never ever a part of India as GSI or whoever is in charge did not have the area mapped :eek: :lol: or even better the area under question is arid ,inhabitable or treacherous and would have incurred the exchequer crores if manned by IA or ITBP so it is the PLA which is now bearing the cost of manning the area. All in all a chanakian ploy guys . :mrgreen:

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 11 Jan 2010 09:50

Another version

New Delhi January 10, 2010


The area along Line of Actual Control with China has "shrunk" over a period of time and India has lost "substantial" amount of land in the last two decades, says an official report. At a recent meeting held in Leh which was attended by officials from the Jammu and Kashmir government, Ministry of Home Affairs and Army, it was agreed that there was difference in the maps of various agencies and that there was lack of proper mapping of the area. The meeting was chaired by Commissioner(Leh) A K Sahu and attended among others by Brigadier General Staff of 14 Corps Brig Sarat Chand and Colonel Inderjit Singh.

While the absence of proper map was agreed upon, the meeting all the same felt, "however, it is clear and be accepted that we are withdrawing from LAC and our area has shrunk over a period of time." "Though this process if very slow but we have lost substantial amount of land in 20-25 years," it was said at the meeting held last month. According to the minutes of the meeting, it was also identified that "there is a lack of institutional memory in various agencies as well as clear policy on this issue which in long run has resulted in loss of territory by the India in favour of China." The meeting was called to ensure proper protection to nomads who move with their cattle to Dokbug area of Nyoma sector during the winter months every year. In December 2008, Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) had damaged their tents and threatened them to vacate the land.

"They (Chinese) have threatened the nomadic people who had been using Dokbug area (in Ladakh sector) area for grazing since decades long, in a way to snatch our land in inches. A Chinese proverb is famous in the world-better do in inches than in yards," a report filed by former Sub Divisional Magistrate (Nyoma) Tsering Norboo had said. Norboo was deputed by the state government to probe complaints of incursion of the Chinese Army in Dokbug area and threats to the local shepherds to leave the land as it belonged to them. The area has been used by the shepherds to graze their livestock as the area is warmer compared to other parts of Ladakh.

The SDM contended that it was another attempt by the Chinese to claim the territory as disputed in the same fashion as they had taken Nag Tsang area opposite to Phuktse airfield in 1984, Nakung in 1991 and Lungma-Serding in 1992. The area of Dokbug and Doley Tango was frequented by shepherds and nomads from December to March every year during which their young lambs were capable to walk. The SDM has also highlighted the fact that Army stopped these nomads from vacating the land. The nomads were terrified by the Chinese threats.

Last year, Chinese troops had entered nearly 1.5 km into the Indian territory on July 31 near Mount Gya, recognised as International border by India and China, and painted boulders and rocks with "China" and "Chin9" in red spray paint. The 22,420 ft Mount Gya, also known as "fair princess of snow" by Army, is located at the tri-junction of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir, Spiti in Himachal Pradesh, and Tibet.

Its boundary was marked during the British era and regarded as International border by the two countries. Before this, Chinese helicopters had violated Indian air space on June 21 along the Line of Actual Control in Chumar region and also helli-dropped some expired food.




http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/78519/LATEST HEADLINES/'India+has+lost+lot+of+land+to+China'.html?page=0

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 11 Jan 2010 11:01

A JNU Prof said to CNN-IBN that China has occupied 60,000 sq km. of Indian land w.r.t. the boundary declared by India in 1957. He says China has controlled it since 1980s.

The area of Aksai Chin is 37,250 sq km.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Singha » 11 Jan 2010 11:27

did he provide details on areas and sectors?

thats a massive area...the size of a small state like manipur :eek:

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 11 Jan 2010 11:45

Singha wrote:did he provide details on areas and sectors?

thats a massive area...the size of a small state like manipur :eek:


He didn't talk about the sectors. That clip will probably be played for many hours today on CNN-IBN. (No link is available on CNN-IBN's website.)

The area of Ladakh (not including Aksai Chin) is ~87,000 sq km. Therefore, he is implying that China has occupied Aksai Chin and ~23,000 sq km (i.e. 26%) of Ladakh.

However, I think Indian Army may have better information regarding these issues.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Aditya G » 11 Jan 2010 23:48

Unless China has built fortifications or permanent outposts, how can we say they have "nibbled" the land? Just because they venture further than earlier doesn't mean that we have lost our land. :roll:

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 12 Jan 2010 10:30

The govermand is saying no land lost.. Covering up huh!

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_no ... re_1333726

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 11:22

On satellite maps it does look like the Chinese have encroached land. We also need to include the Shaksgam valley north of Siachen which Pakistan illegally transferred to China.

This is the South J&K area.
The blue line is the Indus. The problem for India is that east of Indus is occupied by the chinese upto demchock, with the indian forces not being able to get across the Indus.
Image

Area under Chinese occupation (Shaded Red)
Image

They intend to build several trading posts in Demchock and Chang La where they intend to trade animals etc with the local ladhakis building goodwill amongst them. That road across the Jara La is a 3 or 4 lane road of international standards that the chinese are building to supply their military camps.

The comparable Indian roads are laughable single lane ones mostly.

Vivek_Ahuja saar knows that area very well. Saar need your inputs on this one.
Last edited by Gagan on 12 Jan 2010 11:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby pgbhat » 12 Jan 2010 11:27

^ :eek: So close to Fukche. :shock:

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2010 11:36

Gagan you may be right about the part in 1st image bounded by red line, indus and yellow line (the south part of the area) but the northern part - Chang-la pass and onward to the western part of pangong tso is still very much in indian hands. my wife visited pangong tso last summer! I also have pix of the party drinking free tea in chang-la provided by the army.

even 3 idiots movie end part was shot in pangong tso last summer.

so fukche looks safe to me.

and the roads in that part are reasonable...nothing like the se-la tawang road.

ps.. maybe there are two chang-la ? the one I know leads from leh side to pangong tso
and appears to be much further north than this south-east corner? the one in your image
could be some other pass or a nakli duplicate right on the LOC.

here is a pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hardik_8/3820383176/

the asli changla is here, middle of right border of map....quite near leh
http://www.ladakhtourism.net/map-ladakh.html

but this still doesnt take away the occupation of indic territory if true. names are not important :evil: :evil:
Last edited by Singha on 12 Jan 2010 11:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 11:43

Area under Chinese occupation
Image

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 11:53

GD saar,
Chang La, Chushul, Pagong Tso are way north of the area i've indicated. This is the area you are talking about. This is well in Indian hands.

Image

The really sad part is Rezang La - The last stand of Major Shaitan Singh and his men. He was given the PVC. They really fought to the last man and the last bullet.

Here, Spangur and Rezang La are in Chinese hands today. The part of Pagong Tso in Indian hands is the western most part which extends north in this pic.

From google earth maps, the northern end of the Fukche airfield appears to be ~ 2.5 Km at the closest to the area that the chinese hold. Further south a range of hills hides it from chinese view. That having been said, it is well within artillery range, perhaps even large caliber mortar range.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Jan 2010 12:05

Given these maps, it appears that we have not lost "significant" land mass after 1962.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 12:22

1962 started with the chinese building a road across aksai chin. Here is what they have been upto this last decade. GOI knows this. I had posted this a few months back, the road that the chinese were building on Indian territory in the Demchock sector. From GE it appears that the infrastructure they intend to develop is much superior.

The Chinese Road on Indian Territory (Marked by a yellow line in previous pics)
Image

Comparable Indian Road (Note the road width and also the quality of the road)
Image

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 12:26

The J&K, Himachal, Tibet Trijunction where the recent troubles have been. This is indeed difficult territory for India to defend. The border that India has is inaccessible for India.

I'll post this tomorrow.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2010 12:27

As we saw to our detriment at Kargil,even small creeping acts where vital high ground and other features that impinge upon the tactical and strategic picture,affect the military equation very badly."Possession is 9/10ths of the law" ,goes a famous saying and the Chinese are using that principle to cheat India out of its territory.Looking at a map with a scale where one inch is to 100 miles which cannot highlight the actual ground reality and saying that not much has hapopened is meaningless.What are the Chinese actually doing?Answer:They are stealing Indian territory,like brigands rationalise rightly so, because our powers that be are acting like the eunuch's eunuchs,where we are merely wringing their hands and whispering to the media "don't over react" ,more wiorried about media reporting when Indians are being attacked,murdered and set alight in brutal racist attacks Australia because it might damage Indo-Oz relations! No wonder the Chinese are continously creeping into India when they see what pathetic guardians of Indian territory and Indians are at the helm of affairs!

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 12:37

There is more:
The contested boundary of the Uttranchal - Tibet border. Thankfully all of them are in Indian hands - I think.
Image

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Singha » 12 Jan 2010 13:02

the road comparison was very illuminating. even in non-mountainous areas we inevitable build a shabby 2 lane road and they seem to be building 4 laners, with rest areas and medians :((


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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chanakyaa » 12 Jan 2010 20:23

Thanks Gagan for taking time to clarify.

Just curious, any knowledge of when Jara La pass road was built? Also, interesting why jawan posts are concentrated to the south of Demchok?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 12 Jan 2010 20:25

^^^ Naive question probably, but why have we not built roads there in the last 48 years

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby kshirin » 12 Jan 2010 20:32

Cross posting from Military forum:

China plans for world's highest airport in Tibet
http://article.wn.com/view/2010/01/12/C ... n_Tibet_6/

Is this something new? I was looking at earlier pages of discussions on the infrastructure required for military planes based in Tibet, and wonder if anyone has some information/comments on this issue wrt the above item.

I dunno where to post the following, but it may be significant:

Balochistan halts $3.5bn copper project
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LA12Df03.html

"Local authorities in Pakistan have canceled an agreement with an Australian company for the exploration of copper and gold in the Reko Diq area in southwestern Balochistan province at a time when a feasibility study for the project was near completion.

Some analysts believe the Reko Diq mine may now be developed with the help of China, which is engaged in extracting copper from the Saindak mine in the same district. They also warn that the government should learn from its experience at Saindak. Metallurgical Corp of China (MCC), which acquired Saindak on a 10-year lease in September 2002, is overmining in the area at the cost of the mine's estimated life of 19 years, say local experts. They also point out that copper extraction creates various toxic wastes, but there is still no reliable data available on the production and environmental impact at Saindak"

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 21:35

Dagring is located at 31° 17' 0" N, 92° 14' 0" E. The town of Nagqu is a little to the north west of this location. This area is north east of Lahsa, there is a railway station at Nagqu.

The airport will probably be built some 30-40Kms away from the town of Nagqu.

The Bangda Qamdo airport being talked about has the world's longest runway at 5.5 Km to allow for MTOW at high altitudes. This is located some 270 Km north of Arunachal's easternmost tip.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 12 Jan 2010 21:45

chanakyaa wrote:Just curious, any knowledge of when Jara La pass road was built?


From google imagery date, there was no such road on Aug 29 2004, But the road is in advanced stages of construction on Oct 20 2005.

Between Sept 2004 - end 2005 the Chinese feverishly built that ~15-20 Km 4 lane road, and improved the connecting tibet highway too. IIRC they were spending something like > $ 5 billion annually on improving Tibet's infrastructure - Roads, Railway, Airports (With advanced CAT-3 landing capabilities - mind you perhaps only IGI Delhi has that in India), Telecom etc.

All this the result of rapid economic development, and special emphasis to assimilate Tibet once and for all.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 12 Jan 2010 21:47

Does anyone on this forum know Mandarin? We need to get on to their forums and read what they are saying

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 13 Jan 2010 11:59

Antony dismisses reports of China grabbing Indian territory

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Antony-dismisses-reports-of-China-grabbing-Indian-territory-/articleshow/5439776.cms

"There is no change in the Line of Actual Control," Antony said while referring to the LAC that serves as a border between the two countries.

"There is only a difference in perception," he told reporters, referring to a meeting he held with the army corps commander in Ladakh on Tuesday.


"I told them (the army and administrative officials) to study the situation in detail," he said.


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