Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

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Jarita
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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 14 Jan 2010 03:51

^^^ Does this mean that the officials in Leh are lying? Frankly, I believe the officials more than I believe INC

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Karan Dixit » 15 Jan 2010 07:32


India did not lose any part of land to China, says Army Chief


http://www.newkerala.com/news/fullnews-30764.html

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2010 08:38

officials have been told to fall in line or else expect a punishment posting heading a trade mission to a warlike nicobari tribe on a isolated island with rice,fish and coconuts for food and swarming with mosquitoes and tropical ailments.

and no dish tv either.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 15 Jan 2010 21:50

Thanks for the maps.

Is it possible to get an objective view on what is happening on the border? No smoke without fire and unfortunately I do not believe this governments proclammations

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby abhishek_sharma » 17 Jan 2010 16:03

China moving with "specific design" to control Indus in Leh

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/China-moving-with-specific-design-to-control-Indus-in-Leh/articleshow/5455648.cms

Army officials in Leh were a part of a meeting convened by the Jammu and Kashmir government that agreed that China was encroaching into the land with "specific design" to grab a particular area to extend its control till Indus river.

"As per all maps and evidences, the Dokbug pasture (in Northeast of Leh) land undisputedly belongs to India and China is moving with specific design to grab this area to extend its control till Indus (river)," according to an official report.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 17 Jan 2010 20:40

^^^ Surprised at how quiet the govt. is.
It is not possible that this happened without someone knowing abt it and getting remunerated

Unless we create buffer countries Uighurs and Tibet between India and China, we will not be safe. China has massive territorial designs and will continue to encroach on our territory.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 17 Jan 2010 21:03

Problem is that as a nation we are obsessed with Pakistan. Unless we collectively shift focus to China, we will not be able to secure our boders and strength in the world.
I am convinced that we can handle a conventional attack by Pakistan if it so happens. The proxy war will continue unless we take the jaichands out of our pol/bur system and tighten our intelligence.
China is where we have to focus as a nation. We need to learn mandarin and understand their culture, benchmark our defence expenditure to theirs.
This is a big blindspot as you can see on this forum itself. There is a huge buzz around the Pakistani thread but little around this.
What if Pakistan had encroached on our territory - remember Kargil?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Bheem » 18 Jan 2010 09:47

First we have reports that land lost, then GoI says no land lost and then semi-official leaks that some land recovered. Reminds me of historical lessons that we had 10 years of warnings before 1962 but we just slept at the driving wheel. I think China is slowly but surely moving with predetermined intentions like a tortoise but our babus are behaving like a sleeping cow patty.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 18 Jan 2010 10:47

We need to invest more in dealing with China than we do currently - and quickly at that.
A war is inevitable if we do not protect our borders and create buffers

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby AdityaM » 18 Jan 2010 11:46

China retreats, shepherds back
More than 300 families of grazers have reached the pasture, which is 25-30 km long and 3-13 km broad, with 30,000 livestock — mostly Pashmina goats, yaks and horses — and pitched their tents for more than two weeks, after the Indian army convinced its Chinese counterpart to withdraw.

The Indus is considered the LAC in the area. Over the years, the river has changed course, pushing into India, by 500-1,500 metres every year, thus allowing the Chinese side to claim large swathes of territory on its side of the river.
But this time, the Indian side convinced the Chinese — at a series of border management meetings — to recognise the original course of the river.
“The incident of December 2008 was strongly raised and repeatedly asserted during the flag meetings held in January 2009,” said Brig. G. Murali of the Northern Command.


Absurd report!!
All is well on the border, right! there have been no incursions, remember! It was all our perception, got it!

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 18 Jan 2010 12:57

Slightly older news, but I wonder if these were posted. Most of these areas correspond to the area around the Fukche - Demchok sector east of the Indus River I had posted a picture of on the last page:
Enter the dragon, and it spits fire
In Ladakh's Dokbug area, the locals had complained of regular Chinese threats and even assaults by the People's Liberation Army.

Now, Dokbug and Skakjung in Ladakh, which border with Tibet, are favoured winter pastures. An area of 60 kms north of Indus, where grazing is prohibited during summers, and the grass is preserved for the winters. The nomads, who were using the pastures, were threatened by the Chinese army, their pitched tents removed and firewood burnt. And the latest, the road workers in Demchok were verbally threatened by their Army, and the construction work was stopped.

The locals in Ladakh say that similar tactics were used by the Chinese in the past to grab portions of Indian territory in the region. Till 1984, Indian had claims over the Nang Tsang area, which is opposite Phukste air field. Now, its in Chinese terrority.

The Nagking area was again under Indian occupation till 1991, and now is on the other side. Similar claim was laid over Langma Serding area, which was a part of Indian territory till 1992.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Neshant » 18 Jan 2010 13:00

A war is inevitable if we do not protect our borders and create buffers


I agree with this.

A war will become inevitable if this continues.

It will be a repeat of 1962 all over again.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 18 Jan 2010 13:07

The thing to remember is that the Chinese Army has replaced the chinese border police along the LAC in J&K since September 2009.

China ‘replaces’ police with army along Ladakh border

A collection of news reports along the LAC: Link

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 18 Jan 2010 13:10

The chinese are also starting construction activities north of the Karakoram pass. This area is north of the Siachen Glacier. Note that the Shaksgam valley that pakistan illegeally transferred to china lies to the north of the Siachen glacier.

Chinese taking land by inches and not yards;const in Karakoram
Leh, Sep 13 (PTI) The Chinese army has done some construction activities along the international border across Karakoram ranges in Ladakh sector for the first time since the 1962 stand-off between the two countries with a report of Jammu and Kashmir government saying that they have been taking "land in inches and not in yards".

The Chinese Army ? PLA ? has been engaged in construction activities across the Karakoram ranges which could be used for either stationing of additional personnel or mounting a camera for monitoring Indian troop movement, official sources said.

The Karakoram pass falls precisely on the boundary between India and China's Xinjiang Autonomous Region, marking northern end of Sino-Indian border, known as the Line of Actual Control.

Sumir Kaul PTI

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 18 Jan 2010 21:57

On the issue of roads, or the lack of quality roads on the Indian side.

These road projects are the preserve of the uber sarkari Border Roads Organization. While to their credit, they have built roads across some of the MOST inhospitable terrain known to man, the fact is that in the 21st century, they remain an ill equipped and ill funded organization.
Their methodology of constructing roads along long winding streaches by mountainsides reeks of the procedures followed in the 19th and 20th century.

While the world including as we are seeing, the chinese, have moved on to modern methods, wider roads with shoulders, and gentle bends and slopes, using tunnels and bridges to shorten road lengths, BRO still remains entrenched in the methodologies of the past.

There is urgent need to revolutionize this organization, with modern equipment, the ability to attract the best talents and most importantly adequate funding for the missions that it undertakes. All this is government responsibility.

I will be posting google earth pics of the road infrastructure comparison of the chinese and indian border areas.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Gagan » 18 Jan 2010 22:57

The road infrastructure comparision between the Indian side and the Chinese side of the LAC and in Arunachal is like a set of bad dreams for India. This has only been possible because of neglect by various arms of the government. Perhaps part of the problem lies with the fact that on the LAC front in J&K information tends to get lost in the corridors of power in Srinagar where the emphasis is on the happenings in the kashmir valley. Nevertheless the neglect is glaring and easily visible in these pictures.

The chinese have built wide proper 2+ laned roads across the most difficult terrain, not sparing any cost to ensure that the area under their control is well patrolled. Comparitively, many indian areas don't have roads yet, depend on mud tracks and the abilities of the 4 wheeled drive jeeps and mules and porters to supply the outposts. With such a reality, it seems obvious that border patrolling can't be comparable on the two sides. Which is why news such as the chinese having taken over sever square kilometers of Indian territory are "discovered" by Indian forces routinely, and the chinese manage to intrude upto 1-2 kilometers into indian territory before they are again "discovered".

These are the areas I am covering.
Image

Kongka La
The chinese have roads all along the LAC, and they can conduct patrols easily by just driving along the LAC. No such road on the Indian side. Although the terrain on the indian side is much more difficult with hills all the way, no roads are visible at all to patrol that area. I guess that means that the soldiers mount foot patrols all the time.
Image

Image

Rezang La.
Today the chinese have this road over rezang la easily monitoring indian movements in the Tsaka La pass below from the heights above. Rezang La was the place where Major Shaitan Singh and the 123 men of the Charlie-company of the 13 Kumaon fought 1000+ chinese soldiers in 1962. The indians suffered 114 dead and the chinese 500+ dead before the chinese over ran the indian position. The company refused to abandon its positions and exhausted all their ammo before they were all killed. Major Shaitan Singh was awarded the PVC posthumously. The memorial to this epic battle reads:
How can a Man die Better than facing Fearful Odds,
For the Ashes of His Fathers and the Temples of His Gods,
To the sacred memory of the Heroes of Rezang La,
114 Martyrs of 13 Kumaon who fought to the Last Man,
Last Round, Against Hordes of Chinese on 18 November 1962.


"When Rezang La was later revisited dead jawans were found in the trenches still holding on to their weapons... every single man of this company was found dead in his trench with several bullet or splinter wounds. The 2-inch mortar man died with a bomb still in his hand. The medical orderly had a syringe and bandage in his hands when the Chinese bullet hit him... Of the thousand mortar bombs with the defenders all but seven had been fired and the rest were ready to be fired when the (mortar) section was overrun.".

Image

Bum La
Just 20 Kms north of Tawang. All the chinese posts here are linked with 2+ lane metalled roads. The Indian infrastructure is comparitively much lesser, and atlest on the google earth pictures is either under construction or consists of dirt roads. The defense minister has promised matching border infrastructure on the Indian side.
Image

Coming later: The battle for Chushul - on google earth. From the BRF Monitor article.
The Battle for Gurung Hill - Major Dhan Singh Thapa was awarded the PVC here in 1962.
Image

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 20 Jan 2010 09:51

India spars with Pakistan, China over water

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/asiase ... over-water

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Dhiman » 06 Feb 2010 12:19

link without explanation deleted.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Jarita » 16 Feb 2010 20:08


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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby jagga » 26 Mar 2010 01:45

China showing a tendency to project unreasonableness

An Indian diplomat, who has studied the India-China border problem very closely, in a discussion with P Rajendran
Could you discuss the strategy China is using on border issues with India?
In the past the Chinese overall position vis a vis the boundary question was that provided the two countries are able to accept the need to adopt a policy of what they called 'mutual understanding and mutual accommodation and mutual adjustment', which was one of the major undergirdings of the understandings during the Rajiv Gandhi visit in 1988, it would be possible to work out an agreed resolution of the boundary question.

It was understood that if there was difficulty in reaching an agreement during actual discussions of the territorial implications of such 'mutual accommodation and mutual adjustment,' this could be left to succeeding generations to handle.



That's only Arunachal (Pradesh, on India's northeastern border), right? Because in Aksai Chin (bordering Jammu and Kashmir), there are few people.

No, it's not only necessarily Arunachal; it would be a principle for the entire boundary. In the middle sector there are areas -- there are very small areas but important ones. So you needed to follow the principle of settled populations not being disturbed in various areas.



So do you think China is pushing the issue?

I think they are pushing the issue a little more now, not so much in establishing facts on the ground in terms of territory but in terms of trying to strengthen the arguments they have been making. In that sense the arguments they are making regarding Arunachal Pradesh would seem to follow logically because they've always taken a position that Arunachal Pradesh is disputed and that certain areas are even more disputed.

In certain areas -- Tawang comes to mind -- they are trying to strengthen their effort to establish a certain alternate kind of perceptions of where accommodation should be made by the Indian side. This argument (the Chinese) have been making earlier too but they are pressing it a little more persistently now.



Today, for example, you have much improved survey systems -- satellite surveying, etc -- and you might find that the description of our borders in that area may be quite out of tune with what the actual (topographical) features on the ground are.(so just donate the land to chinis :roll: )


But India has even a bigger issue because any government that effects a compromise will be accused of going against the resolution (in Parliament) right?

There have been many governments in the past -- both BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party) and Congress governments -- who may have been willing to look at that. There is, of course, a strong perception that any Indian governments will fall if it were to move in that direction.

My own sense is that they will not if they take a very strong and politically reasonable position based on a need for us to reach a long-term and stable settlement of the issue. :evil:

But the fact is we've not reached there because there is a large load of emotional baggage. I do not say this in a negative sense. Because we have a good case. Certainly, in the eastern sector it is a very good case.



But there's no real gain, right? Aksai Chin (is an icy desert).

I don't know how you can say that just because Aksai Chin is a barren area.

But in a sense you have to accept realities. And that's what (1988 did for us. Then prime minister) Rajiv Gandhi's big first step was to accept that we needed to (get) a much greater sense of reality, and proceed on the basis of the need to have to eventually make some kind of adjustment. Some kind of adjustment has to be made.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby jagga » 03 Apr 2010 15:53

'China's positioning on the border is very aggressive'
"There seems to be some coordination between China and Pakistan in order to keep India engaged in South Asia so that India does not play a role in the rest of Asia," Mishra said.

"China's positioning on the Line of Actual Control has become very aggressive," he added.

China has taken up "so called development projects in Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir".

All this, he said, has "created a situation where India needs to be prepared militarily to defend on two fronts if they (Pakistan and China) become active simultaneously"

"At last, the government is beginning to prepare militarily for a situation where we have to defend on two fronts at the same time," Mishra said, adding that former Army chief General Deepak Kapoor and the new Army chief, General Vijay Kumar Singh, and even Defence Minster A.K Antony are talking about the problem of China.

He added, "They are using diplomatic language to address the issue."

Emphasising the need for military development, Mishra said the Sukhoi squadron which has been moved to the North-East, the mountain divisions that have been created and the upgrading of the Ladakh airfield were positive developments.

"I hope it (modernisation of the military) goes fast enough, because we don't have more than three to four years (to act) if this happens," he said.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby jagga » 04 Apr 2010 19:45

China grabbing land in Ladakh, alleges BJP
In the wake of reports of Chinese incursions in the Ladakh region, the Bharatiya Janata Party deputed a delegation of its national leaders for an on-the-spot survey after which they demanded that Government stop the practice of issuing inner line permits but open up the area to tourism to defeat the "Chinese design of grabbing the land by inches"

This is the first national-level political delegation to visit the far flung areas of this Himalayan town. "The most shocking and frightful site was when we met those nomads and Ladakhi people. They are craving for every inch of land which they see has been encroached since 1962. "The most stunning revelation was that most of the incursion that has taken place from 1965 to 1995 and the Chinese army had come and established posts," said Rudy

"They are fighting a war through nomads and grazers. There are no conflict zones or day-to-day confrontation with armed forces but they are fighting the battle through nomads on grazing pastures...they are pushing nomads here and there. "Its all about pasture land and gazers and they stand solidly behind these nomads....so they are inching through grazing land," he said.

"This isolation is a very very dangerous situation. Why can't Indians move to these areas which are thousands and thousands of miles. By merely visiting these areas and people in the area we can certainly change the complex of the area," he said.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 06 Apr 2010 08:22

X-POSTED: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion --&-- Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

I hope this is not OT for this thread, but it is a story from Canada that has defence relevance for India (and someone here at BRF inexplicably decided to put the 'Cyberwarfare' thread in the 'Trash Can' archive -- leaving me no better option).


Canadian researchers reveal online spy ring based in China
Espionage network is breaching servers of dozens of countries and groups and focusing on India and the Dalai Lama

Grant Robertson
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

Canadian researchers have uncovered a vast “Shadow Network” of online espionage based in China that used seemingly harmless means such as e-mail and Twitter to extract highly sensitive data from computers around the world.

Stolen documents recovered in a year-long investigation show the hackers have breached the servers of dozens of countries and organizations, taking everything from top-secret files on missile systems in India to confidential visa applications, including those of Canadians travelling abroad.

...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tec ... le1524228/

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 06 Apr 2010 19:51

^^^^^^^^

X-POSTED: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion --&-- Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

A follow-up article, also from Canada's 'Globe and Mail' newspaper


Spies reach deep into India's defence
Government has been reluctant to discuss the matter publicly

GRANT ROBERTSON
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Published on Tuesday, Apr. 06, 2010 5:16AM EDT
Last updated on Tuesday, Apr. 06, 2010 9:51AM EDT


When Greg Walton began sifting through the files recovered from one of the biggest Internet spy rings ever cracked, the evidence didn't immediately strike him as a high-stakes espionage case.

The first stolen file Canadian researchers unearthed seemed innocuous. It was an e-mail sent from people in the tiny village of Pooh in India to the Dalai Lama. The small Himalayan enclave was sending 34 boxes of “our finest apples” to the Tibetan leader to wish him a long and healthy life.

“Nothing Earth shattering,” Mr. Walton said.

But soon, Mr. Walton and his colleagues found far more dangerous e-mails in the recovered files that were linked to servers in China.

The spy ring linked to China had Indian national security files, including details of the Pechora missile system, an anti-aircraft, surface-to-air weapons project. Other documents contained data related to the Iron Dome missile system, and Project Shakti, an artillery combat system.

...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tec ... le1524425/

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby mnag » 06 Apr 2010 21:47

Not exactly related to the title of the thread, but something close.
Saw this on rediff page http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/apr/06/slide-show-1-chinese-agents-hack-into-indias-top-secret-documents.htm

Have been hearing a lot about chinese hackers these days ranging from google incident to others. Do you gurus believe that there is truth in this?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 07 Apr 2010 02:11

^^^^^^^^^
Read the full report on 'Scribd'.... SHADOWS IN THE CLOUD Investigating Cyber Espionage 2.0
NB: You can also download a PDF of the report with the free sign-up of a Scribd account. I just read most of it while online, and the report has obvious -- primary -- relevance for Indian defence.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29435784/SHAD ... ionage-2-0

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2010 10:16

Samachar has this headline article by Bharat Vema:

Nightmare 2012;Chinese take Siliguri


and suggested counter

Two key question for New Delhi:
1. Will India go nuclear if its territorial integrity is threatened? France’s stated policy is that it will use the nuclear option, if Germany is attacked. Germany is not likely to face a nuclear adversary, yet France will use nuclear option if it is attacked. India faces threat from two nuclear powers in its vicinity. Will India shift its stated position of second strike to first strike, if the territorial integrity of the Union is under threat?

2. Will New Delhi have the gumption to order the Navy to retaliate and stop the flow of cargo in the Indian Ocean being freighted to China? Or will it order the Air Force to conduct offensive and decisive strategic strikes inside Tibet?



Lets take the questions one by one:
1.Indian nuke doctrine is core deterrence i.e nukes are to deter use of nukes by challengers. This implies high conventional forces superiority to ensure the use threshold is high. Other nuke powers have expanded deterrence i.e to nukes will be used to prevent aggression. This implies first use which is contrary to Indian NFU. So in reality Bharat Verma is asking for a change to the Indian NFU doctrine. If so it will lead to more demands on the strategic scientific community as regards to reliability and yields to ensure escalation control.

2. Its not a case of gumption which is simplistic. Its a question of bearing all resources to keep the threshold high. In 1962 Nehruji under advise of US Ambassador Galbraith to not escalate, did not use the IAF to attack the PRC dregs even though India had better air force. It wont be the same in future engagements.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Karan Dixit » 20 Apr 2010 10:40

As Mrs. Gandhi would have said. "I do not know what needs to be done but I do know that something needs to be done." So, something will be done and that may or may not include nukes. The decision will be based on needs not gumption.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 20 Apr 2010 12:14

This post may seem to start OT, but I do bring it back on-topic before the last paragraph.

It has been said that the first casualty of war is the truth. Surely, the second casualty must be the war plan. Indeed, it is also said that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. I believe that India’s NFU policy may be an example of this. Let me explain why.

The strategic and tactical value of India’s stated NFU policy is to forestall a nuclear arms race that could be sparked in non-nuclear weapons states that are or may become fearful of India’s nuclear arsenal. The point is that India does not want to provide a threat that would encourage further weaponization in the region. The NFU policy is meant to reassure non-nuclear weapons states that they don’t need their own nuclear weapons in order to counter India, because India also pledges not to use her nuclear weapons against non-nuclear weapons states.

Vis a vis nuclear weapons states – namely China and Pakistan – the NFU posture is meant to raise the threshold of first use by both of these countries, to help contain the possibility of a nuclear conflagration, particularly an accidental one. But, I would suggest that a careful reading of this NFU policy – which also promises ‘punitive counterstrikes’ – and with due consideration given to India’s proclamation of her mastery of sub-kiloton devices (as tested during Pokhran II; the Shakti III, IV and V devices, all of which were sub-KT); gives strong indication that India’s stated NFU policy probably has a disclaimer attached, reading that India would not use nuclear weapons in an initial attack *on Chinese or Pakistani soil*.

This raises the possibility that India might be the first to use nuclear weapons in a war with Pakistan or China, if the target were large formations of Pakistani or Chinese forces occupying Indian soil. For one, such a first use on one’s own (sparsely inhabited, and underdeveloped) soil during a state of war with an occupation under way, would seem to have inherent defensive legitimacy. Secondly, if the weapon used were small, sub-kiloton, it could conceivably destroy an invasion force and not much else. Third, such a first use would in all likelihood put an end to the invasion and the war, and so could be seen as a viable option, all things considered (including radioactive fallout – which would be of greater concern for Pakistan-facing sectors, than for China-facing sectors, due to prevailing winds). This outlook may offer an additional explanation for the lack of development in the border areas near China, in particular.

Therefore, I believe, if Indian soil were invaded, and that soil was deemed to be of significant strategic value, for the protection of access or resource (particularly high ground or water); and if that invading force were large enough to represent a substantial deployment of the enemy’s conventional forces such that its destruction would alter the overall balance of military power between India and her adversary, that India would probably consider using a small nuclear weapon on her own soil, to achieve a tactical victory and favourably alter the balance of power.

On the other hand, if the invading force was too small (in number of soldiers) or too lightweight (lacking armour), India would probably prefer a conventional response, if this was available to her -- countering a 'pin prick' with a 'stitch'.

Of course, China knows all this, and doesn’t really want a hot war with India, unless it could help direct Chinese public opinion against an external power (such as India), rather than the internal power that actually oppresses them on a day-to-day basis.

Furthemore, my reading of the current situation in China indicates that there is no factional advantage to be gained by any power center in China, to start a hot war with India (unlike in 1962, when war with India embarrased and fatally undermined the visiting Chinese Premier, Chou En-Lai). JMT

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 20 Apr 2010 23:08

You should develop this as an eassy. Will cause some browning in TSPA and duplicity think tanks.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 21 Apr 2010 13:20

^^^^^^^^^^
Dear ramana, Sir;

I am flattered and humbled by your suggestion that I expand my post above into an essay.

You can be sure that I will think about it.

I sincerely appreciate your encouragement.

Thanks,
Ravi Karumanchiri

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Apr 2010 14:15

It a kind of idea which is inherently flawed-'to use sub KT ' within the border to destroy a large enemy formation.

1. How large a formation should be to draw that response?
2.Do we withdraw towards our hinterland to draw out the enemy formations deep inside( and how deep should that be) before deliberately nooking them
3.Do we get butchered and enemy thrusts deep inside our territory?
4. Is enemy is deep inside , what happened to our resources? Will they still be in usable condition? Would enemy not destroy that before moving beyond certain line?
5. What happens if ceasefire is declared before IN uses that option?
6.What areas could be used for such tactical and battlefield use of Sub KT?
7.Is it away fro large population center or are we considering to nook Thar desert or Hilly NE region?
8. What happens to nook radiation fall out.?
9. Do we do it at a time when wind is flowing westward on Western border or eastward in NE region.
10. Whether enemy would not factor weather and wind pattern while advancing ?
11.Could we use this option in Punjab? Amritsar?
12. What about civilian population centers. The area which is nooked would become unavailable for thousands of years.
13.what happens if radiation clouds drifts towards delhi or kolkata and then to central india.
14. Do our forces go on cleaning job in nooked areas.?
15. What happens to river/canal structure radiation contamination of water bodies?
16. If enemy is deliberately drawn inside our territory leaving our stockpiles intact can't we use traditional ammo to wipeout the formation like modern day Chakravyuha.

Inflicting self injury to hurt enemy is not a novel idea but using nook to do it certainly is.


many more but to start with enough to ponder.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby biswas » 21 Apr 2010 14:57

chaanakya wrote:It a kind of idea which is inherently flawed-'to use sub KT ' within the border to destroy a large enemy formation.

1. How large a formation should be to draw that response?
2.Do we withdraw towards our hinterland to draw out the enemy formations deep inside( and how deep should that be) before deliberately nooking them
3.Do we get butchered and enemy thrusts deep inside our territory?
4. Is enemy is deep inside , what happened to our resources? Will they still be in usable condition? Would enemy not destroy that before moving beyond certain line?
5. What happens if ceasefire is declared before IN uses that option?
6.What areas could be used for such tactical and battlefield use of Sub KT?
7.Is it away fro large population center or are we considering to nook Thar desert or Hilly NE region?
8. What happens to nook radiation fall out.?
9. Do we do it at a time when wind is flowing westward on Western border or eastward in NE region.
10. Whether enemy would not factor weather and wind pattern while advancing ?
11.Could we use this option in Punjab? Amritsar?
12. What about civilian population centers. The area which is nooked would become unavailable for thousands of years.
13.what happens if radiation clouds drifts towards delhi or kolkata and then to central india.
14. Do our forces go on cleaning job in nooked areas.?
15. What happens to river/canal structure radiation contamination of water bodies?
16. If enemy is deliberately drawn inside our territory leaving our stockpiles intact can't we use traditional ammo to wipeout the formation like modern day Chakravyuha.

Inflicting self injury to hurt enemy is not a novel idea but using nook to do it certainly is.


many more but to start with enough to ponder.


If the above scenarios were weighed against the calamity of losing a significant part of India, which would you choose? Tactical nook for me

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Apr 2010 18:38

biswas wrote:
If the above scenarios were weighed against the calamity of losing a significant part of India, which would you choose? Tactical nook for me



I don't know apart from PK and CN which other country would like to invade India in near future. Certainly PK and CN would not be in a position to take a "significant part " of IN and hold it at this juncture. Unless of course you mean Aksai Chin and POK, which are already in respective countries control. Your proposition would only mean that IN has not learnt their lessons well.

What is the size of force are we talking about in this scenario which would alter the balance of power. Is it a Corps or a Division or a battalion ? What is the area covered by each setup's deployment? What area would be covered by Sub KT nook? Are we going to invade and take and hold twice of thrice the land of enemy or whole of it ( China is ruled out then). Are we going to administer or make another state appoint our Governor etc. once balance of power is in our favour and we do get more area than lost in Nook radiation no go zone except for specially suited and trained forces but unfit for ordinary habitation?

May be we can draw them up to central india and do it to them? Like MP and CHTGH , Maoists also will be taken care of in same stroke as well as poor underdeveloped tribals. No body has any rights here if he lives in sparse and underdeveloped area. Great .

Tactical Nook is good for fighting in other countries( if at all) like Unkil did or plans it not to nook your own territory. This theory offers only advantage of
first use on one’s own (sparsely inhabited, and underdeveloped) soil during a state of war with an occupation under way, would seem to have inherent defensive legitimacy


Or may be , under developed areas, sparsely populated areas like Rajasthan and agricultural fields , Rann of Katch offer good advantage. Poor people whose destinies are fixed here with a nook any way deserve to be fodder of a wonderful policy. In any case they may die of other causes as well and they breed fast and strain our meager resources so good riddance.

It would be instructive to know what areas are in mind before a call is taken.But its worth elaborating further as worst case scenario.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 21 Apr 2010 18:45

biswas wrote:If the above scenarios were weighed against the calamity of losing a significant part of India, which would you choose? Tactical nook for me


And do answer these questions since we can't really rule out any scenario. We might have to nook some areas under certain situations.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby ramana » 21 Apr 2010 20:51

Ravi, Thinking is not enough. Please set yourself a deadline of three weeks and convert into an essay with refs etc.

Meantime, will x-post your thoughts in the deterrence thread in lieu.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Sanjay M » 22 Apr 2010 09:05

China Admits to Building Dam Project on Brahmaputra

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 842624.cms

Time to build up that Agni arsenal, to make China understand that water is existential for India.

It's a question of Issue Saliency.

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 22 Apr 2010 12:22

chaanakya, Sir;

I must strongly (and *respectfully*) protest and rebuke several of the comments you have posted above. Your question; “Could we use this option in Punjab? Amritsar?” quite simply appals me to the utmost. Your remark that; “Maoists also will be taken care of in same stroke as well as poor underdeveloped tribals” disgusts me to no end. Your purely reprehensible musing that; “Poor people whose destinies are fixed here with a nook any way deserve to be fodder of a wonderful policy. In any case they may die of other causes as well and they breed fast and strain our meager(sic) resources so good riddance”; expresses a contemptible attitude towards your fellow countrymen that should rightly cause any thinking and patriotic Indian to recoil.

Kindly notice that I have targeted my rebuke directly at the words you have written and the thoughts you have expressed – academically, not personally.

  • I don’t know if you feel free to express the worst impulses that come to your mind, simply because you are hiding behind an anonymous internet moniker and you feel as though you have nothing to lose.
  • I don’t know if the obvious sense of impunity you get from anonymity has intoxicated your thinking and expression, freeing you to vent the darkest and basest thoughts you have.
  • I don’t know if you were being sincere or if you are some kind of ‘agent provocateur’ intent on denigrating and downgrading the discourse here on BRF.
  • I don’t know if you think you are among like-minded people here on BRF, but I can assure you that I STRONGLY REJECT YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

What I do know is the following:

  • It is far beneath my dignity to address the questions or comments of yours that I have quoted in this post.
  • These comments of yours indicate a very immature attitude and inhumane mentality that does not reflect well on you in any way. Moreover, I am of the opinion that your comments reflect very poorly on this entire thread and on BRF as well. If it were up to me, I would expunge these comments of yours – but I will not presume to tell the moderators what to do. After all, I also believe you have a right to be wrong.

Please consider – everyone who reads this, I beg you – consider that:

  • Anything that divides Indians weakens India. India will achieve her full potential only through unity.
  • India’s historical enemies sought to subjugate India by ‘divide and conquer’ tactics and strategies. For any Indian to participate in this should be considered as aide and abetment to the enemy.
  • India’s present adversaries openly ponder about cutting-up India into many different pieces. For any Indian to think, speak, write or act along similar lines, is to be anti-India in the purest sense of the term.
  • Without overcoming this divisive mentality – without removing it entirely from the Indian mindspace; no clever doctrinal posture nor any amount of sophisticated weaponry or cunning use thereof; can secure India from destruction.

My fellow Rakshaks: We have met our true enemy, and he is us.

FURTHERMORE: Although you have also put forth some legitimate tactical considerations, I will not address them either, because to do so would prejudice both the necessary intellectual flexibility and required uncertainty of intent that are needed for successful warfighting. Even if I had the means to properly address your questions, I would not do so because it would be a mistake in itself.

I hope you will consider this post carefully and take what I have written to heart. I wrote it from my heart.

Respectfully,
Ravi Karumanchiri

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby kittoo » 22 Apr 2010 13:14

^^^^Chaanakya sir was being sarcastic only ji.
What is going on here?

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Re: Chinese incursions into Indian territory: News and Analysis

Postby chaanakya » 22 Apr 2010 14:38

Well well... Hold one please, before you hang me dear Ravi.

First of all, no sirs please.

I have referred to your ideas only and what could be underlying assumptions, though one may not realise or understand it explicitly.
It does not mean that I hold that view or ascribe that view to you.

These are simply the underlying assumptions (or could be) or possibilities of taking care of more problems than one ( if one elaborate further) , of course sarcastically as Kittoo ji aptly put it.

You may find it appalling and good since you , perhaps, didn't realise it could lead to it. It is meant to evoke strong response from you before you finally write your piece in three weeks time.

However, Ideas are not developed just by agreeing to everything what is put before us.Neither Democracy meant that nor an academic discourse?

So instead of replying or analysing further your idea, you are using words worthy of Dictators 'worst impulses', 'sense of impunity', " ‘agent provocateur’ intent on denigrating and downgrading the discourse " . Rest assured my identity could easily be deciphered by moderators here and I would happily let them know but that is besides the point. And this monikor (and like so many of other member) does not deprive me of my intellectual honesty and right to discuss matters here. You are absolutely free to rebut them. My thoughts are expressed in serious vein. Don't take shelter behind patriotic veil.

So you " STRONGLY REJECT YOUR POINT OF VIEW". I humbly beg to differ. These are not my point of view but likely assumptions of such a doctrine. So you may be rejecting your own thesis.

Well I am the ENEMY because I have raised some questions then so be it. Perhaps Hitler would have similar idea.Contrarian point of views are met with irrational responses. Being a Lawyer you might understand the meaning of Natural Justice, opportunity to be heard and Evidence beyond any reasonable doubt.

You happen to ack "legitimate tactical considerations" but not do it " Even if you had the means to properly address your questions, you would not do so because it would be a mistake in itself." Perhaps you would not have heard such ideas from among indian elites who even find traveling economy class as "cattle class". I have heard it so often and find that people lack intellectual ability to decipher what their statement means or could actually lead to. And rest assured it is not confined to the thesis under consideration
in Military planning and strategic thinking but in development areas law & order etc. We are just hiding our own inadequacies of thinking through a problem to find best compossible solution.

I have not taken your post to my heart, and would continue to post if there is something I would like to say here as long as I am not rebuked by Moderators or banned for being enemy.

I also beseech you to take all factors into consideration and develop this idea further and do not let this inappropriate post of mine deter you.War is a serious business and war gaming is to understand all possible ramifications of a doctrine.

Do continue if you have the means to properly address my question.

Don't let this post become a flame.

If you feel hurt I sincerely apologise and stand by my post most humbly, though it may remain unanswered.

Yours faithfully

Chaanakya.



ps:-Moderators are free to delete the post if it does not meet the required legitimacy of discourse. I have nothing to complain.


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