Strategic leadership for the future of India - II

[Rahul M]

How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?

Anything else is OT and will be deleted. repeat offenders will be warned and banned.

[Prem]

Rahul Sir ji

Please let me know if this is OT. My confusion is about the future of Bharat in India. How important is for future leadership of India to have Bhartiya roots or strictly flourish on Westphalian concept? Can both be mixed or one must die at the alter of other, i mean how much revival of India be a civilizational revival or be like Japan ,China and Korea with break from ancestral past reserved for majoirty people only . Finally why cant we have both way and change the current (West induced) paradigm and uplift the soul thought of humanity with wholesome development.

[Rahul M]

on topic of course.

but why 'Sir' ?

[RamaY]

self deleted

[Muppalla]

Rahul Sir ji

Please let me know if this is OT. My confusion is about the future of Bharat in India. How important is for future leadership of India to have Bhartiya roots or strictly flourish on Westphalian concept? Can both be mixed or one must die at the alter of other, i mean how much revival of India be a civilizational revival or be like Japan ,China and Korea with break from ancestral past reserved for majoirty people only . Finally why cant we have both way and change the current (West induced) paradigm and uplift the soul thought of humanity with wholesome development.

I am not confident that a decent discussion is possible in the current BR season for the above lines of thought. Sorry to disappoint as this line invariably gets into thread disruption as we are all worried of B.Raman's future comments on BRF. We have to wait for a new BR season when that predicament is solved and permanently decided.

Meanwhile, the "encirclement" I have talked of in the "future strategic" thread seems to be proceeding at full pace. The realignment of forces around the perimeter states of Rajasthan, Punjab, Haryana,Uttarakhand,UP, Bihar, WB, Orissa, Andhra, Karnataka, Maharashtra and Gujarat - are interesting. They are all more orless converging to similar agenda, slogans, public-"issues". Increasing regionalism, xenophobia, homogenization towards the INC, revival of political Islam with tacit allowance and no criticism from the media, resurgence of Maoist violence, separatist pressures in J&K and NE, posturings by PRC and TSP.

This is the best few-liner that describes the discussion point towards the topic of this thread. We can contribute towards this line of thought and expand it in this second version.

[ShyamSP]

Rahul Sir ji

Please let me know if this is OT. My confusion is about the future of Bharat in India. How important is for future leadership of India to have Bhartiya roots or strictly flourish on Westphalian concept? Can both be mixed or one must die at the alter of other, i mean how much revival of India be a civilizational revival or be like Japan ,China and Korea with break from ancestral past reserved for majoirty people only . Finally why cant we have both way and change the current (West induced) paradigm and uplift the soul thought of humanity with wholesome development.

I'm not sure Westphalia concept has to be orthogonal to nation's roots. In fact, Westphalian concept was to give power to the leadership having roots in respective independent states and do away with external influence (then Roman Church)

Within India it had its own Westphalian balance based on language that gave stability and backbone to the Nation besides Hindu culture. Currently all the factors that give commonality and backbone are under attack with its own men and women falling into the external influence.

Until there is widespread understanding of one's own culture and collapse of current leadership mindset, there will not be much change in the way country is progressing. Both social and economic models that those in leadership position are dependent on Western concepts and influence. The Western forces continue to tweak and condition any departures from balance that they seek and hence suppression of anything related to Santana Dharma. India leadership lacks courage to depart from its conditioned path as any such changes may bring short-term misery in the Nation. Even economic prosperity may not change the conditions as the current models can still leave large population in perpetual poverty and leadership legs are tied to challenge conditioned path.

[Umrao Das]

Lets us be bluntly pointed ( Bata Shoe advertisement when Beetles pointed shoes went out of fashion and blunt front shoes became fad of the day in late 1979.... )

Some moderators are reading through the post and often having Bo{u}rn identity crisis.

Now bagh back to Nukkad and sit quietly with out popcorn!

[Pranav]

How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?

First of all make sure elections are honest. EVMs are the key. [Note for Newcomers: there is a big thread on that in the Tech and Economy forum.]

[enqyoob]

The answer is that as long as there is (or will be) a free press and intelligent minds, those elected will reflect the notions of "loyalty" etc. of the voting population.

There is no way to ensure that the voting population will want to be "loyal" to the same entities that we may define as the right path/form/shape for India. But them the collective wisdom of the voters may take India in directions that we may be completely unable to imagine.

Vox Populi, Vox Dei / Fa**t Idioti

[Pulikeshi]

But them the collective wisdom of the voters may take India in directions that we may be completely unable to imagine.

Yes, it did take Germany into the hands of a dictator!

[vera_k]

Introduce right to recall, initiatives, referendums and primaries.

[RayC]

Strategic leadership and the future Of India is an issue that is connected with electing capable and loyal leaders.

The issue is what is 'capable' and what is 'loyal' and its co-relationship with 'strategic leadership'!

After all, this is a thread on strategic leadership, the future of India and not merely elections!

I wonder in a free-wheeling democracy as ours, where there is poverty and illiteracy, can we really have capable leaders, hopefully loyal?

If not, how do we in this scenario ensure that our country progresses? What should be the strategy? What should be the leadership?

[Umrao Das]

We dont need Strategic Leadership
We need Leadership with strategic thinking {for India}

[RayC]

We dont need Strategic Leadership
We need Leadership with strategic thinking {for India}

And what should be that?

That is the issue!

[Umrao Das]

Thinking

[vera_k]

Civics education should be revamped. Every student passing 10th grade should know -

1. How taxation works and how government uses taxes to pay for services.
2. Procedures under Right To Information Act.
3. Salient features of IPC and how to register a FIR with the police.

Every student passing college should know -

1. Features of the constitution and reasons why features were adopted.
2. How elections happen and how political parties operate.

And introduce term limits so there is never another Indira Gandhi type leader who starts off right but then feels free to turn to the dark side.

[Bharath.Subramanyam]

I am just posting this as I think posting about leadership of India's principal opposition party might qualify for Strategic leadership for future of India. If the moderators think otherwise, please delete it.

For all people who follow BJP a lot:
The problems in BJP now are more organizational than ideological. They have incompetent people in BJP. That is why they are suffering a lot. Arun Shourie has also explained that.

One of the most important position in BJP is "General Secretary -Organisation". Right now Ram Lal is holding the post. He is not up to the mark. He can't even understand UP politics properly. Some people in RSS want Muralidhar Rao to become next "General Secretary -Organisation". They think as Muralidhar Rao is a close to Govindacharya and Gurumurthy, it will be good. But he is far more worst than Ram Lal. This Muralidhar Rao is a total crap in understanding political issues, situations, developing new strategies for growth of party etc

For many of the problems in BJP, RSS is also an factor (may be not the only factor in BJP crisis). RSS itself doesn't have many people of good calibre. For example Ram Madhav is pathetic. Even the so called "intellectual" Tarun Vijay is found wanting in most issues.

BJP is having a problem with two kinds of people:

1. Competent people - there are lots , but many of them nurture only personal ambitions like Arun Jaitley.

2. Incompetent people - there are lots and they sitting as dead weights in the party (this includes some RSS appointed people as well and not just aya rams & gaya rams) Rajnath Singh, Sughanshu Mittal, Muralidhar Rao etc

BJP's only hope is people like Modi, Manohar Parrikar, Nitin Gadkari. They are competent & also put organisation first. BJP's issue is not a ideological crisis. Nor it is about the role of RSS.
It is plain & simple : incompetence in various levels.

[Sanku]

It is plain & simple : incompetence in various levels.

Actually Congress isnt particularly better as far as that is concerned is it? Or most other parties, or do you think BJP has higher amount of incompetency, if so why?

[svinayak]

I am just posting this as I think posting about leadership of India's principal opposition party might qualify for Strategic leadership for future of India. If the moderators think otherwise, please delete it.

Dont post something which people cannot understand here.

[Rahul Mehta]

[To prem] but why 'Sir' ?

I dont know, Your Highness . But Prem is calling you sir perhaps because Your Highness is one of The Administrators who can click on ban button?

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How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?[/size]

Anything else is OT and will be deleted. repeat offenders will be warned and banned.

The citizens should expel, imprison, execute those leaders, IAS, IPS, judges etc who are disloyal to nation, and also confiscate their wealth. I have proposed the DRAFTS of the laws for recall over about 150 positions such as PM, CM, District Police Chief, RBI Govt, SC-Cj, HC-Cj, District Education Officer etc. And i addition, I have proposed law using which citizens can imprison or even execute neta, IPS, IAS using mahority vote, and also confiscate all his ill gotten wealth. But since "citizens expelling leaders, IAS, IPS etc" aka "Right to Recall" aka "Procedure to Recall" are highly un-kosher in this forum, I will not discuss this any further.

----

First of all make sure elections are honest. EVMs are the key.

Pranav,

You know that I am 100% anti-EVM just like you are. But lets not bring EVMs here. And even if EVM is bad, EVM is the outcome of corruption, not a cause.

----

Introduce right to recall, initiatives, referendums and primaries.

AWMTA .

[brihaspati]

With all due respects - Rahul M ji,
I find the topic outlay quite strange and frankly - not well thought out.

How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?

How do you define "loyalty to the country"? It depends on your definition of "country", or the particular leader's definition of "country". To a certain group and its chosen leader - country could imply "Dalit country" only, or an Islamic Republic only, or a "People's Republic" only. It could even be defined in negation - it is a country which does not contain "Hindutva" only. "Loyalty" then can mean vicious attempts at destruction of what others define the country to be in a different perspective.

You can perhaps try to bypass the problem by defining country specifically in terms of the existing "Constitution of India". But that Constitution has not been able to prevent Maoist violence, Jihadi violence, fatwas galore, communal violence. That Constitution, more importantly, has not remained "constant" and "unaltered" since its inception. So "loyalty" is to an entity, that does not remain constant itself - and its most substantial alterations took place under a regime which is well recognized to have been one of the most authoritarian in the history of the Republic - a regime "elected" too.

Election does not guarantee choice of capable leadership. In fact under many circumstances, elections will guarantee mediocre capability in leadership - and specifically eliminate more capable leadership. Capable leadership more often than not is "imposed" from "above" or "outside". Elections are limited by the envisioning capacity of the electorate.

Election can also lead to choice of dictators - a fact formally recognized and codified even from the times of the early Roman Republic. Both Hitler and Lenin were formally elected in the then relevant broadest possible/feasible representative body (Hitler and his party swept the elections to the Reichstag, Lenin and his party dominated elections to the peasants and workers Soviets).

Finally "how to elect capable leadership" is meaningless in logical consistency. Elections are elections. The fundamental assumption in the validity and justifications of elections is simply that "electors know best", and "electors deserve what they choose". This is the single justification that legitimizes "elections". Your proposition perhaps reflects the subconscious position in many of us - that "elections" are a mere tool, which should be convenient manipulator of the system to establish a leadership or framework that we desire - and that "electors" cannot in general be trusted to choose "rightly".

I think you will not be able to allow discussion trying to clarify the "definition of country" - for that will lead back to what is preceived in certain quarters (or claimed to be so) as "Hindutva through the backdoor". So the entire expression "loyal to the country" becomes vague and meaningless or useless for discussion.

On the other hand, "how to elect capable leaders" is an insult to the electorate who are thereby being dismissed as beings incapable of choosing "rightly".

That leaves us with discussing procedures of "elections" - which can perhaps be merged with the EVM dhaaga and does not need a separate thread.

Sometimes trimming the tree to make it grow in one obsessively desired direction becomes overtrimming that kills the tree. Strategic leadership, as a topic, in general was framed with a much broader context in mind - if you read the very first starting post - mentioning even the Satyam episode.

I think the real reasons as to why that thread had to be closed, should be discussed at the admin level first, and responsibilities fixed with an internal system of compulsory self-restraint/withdrawal from relevant thread by those in admin responsible. Otherwise sooner or later the same tactic will become apparent here again, leading to hardening of schisms. Also consider, whether this type of driving off or silencing a certain "school of opinion" is good strategy even for those who want to erase that "school" - isn't it better to let those "opinions" play around openly before the eyes?

Until this attitudinal issue is sorted, let us not post any further in this thread.

[rkirankr]

How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?

What strategy? It is a replication of EVM dhaaga now. No more strategy.Above post by Brihaspati is excellent and I totally agree with him. I for one do not understand how one can discuss something as leadership or furture strategic issues involved with the leadership without discussing/analyzing the present and the past. While doing that in Indian context, I do not see how religion/culture can be kept away. It will be like jholawalla's history and analysis.
Anyways I will miss the original strategic leadership dhaaga. It was good while it lasted.No more posts on this thread from me (though my contribution was minimum)

[Pranav]

With all due respects - Rahul M ji,
I find the topic outlay quite strange and frankly - not well thought out.

How does Indian society make sure that it elects leaders who are capable and loyal to the country ?

Without going into philosophical issues of what "country" is, one can say

country == citizens of the Republic of India
loyalty to the country == loyalty to the interests of these people; this would sometimes call for delivering what the people want, and at other times it would call for helping the people see what is in their long-term interest, even if it is bitter medicine that the people don't want.

The election machinery itself is the subject matter of the EVM dhaaga.

But there is also the issue of procedures which can ensure that the choice of the leader actually reflects the will of the electorate. Currently, the PM is nominated by the party high command, and is not elected by the people. The continuance in office of the PM does not depend upon the will of the people, but rather on shady back-room deals, issues such as distribution of loaves and fishes, protection of certain corrupt interests from prosecution.

[Rahul M]

I find the topic outlay quite strange and frankly - not well thought out.

I agree. I did the best I could given that I'm not a regular on this thread.

if you were around yesterday you might have known that we had a 'situation' on our hands.
please do have a look at the archived part-1 of this thread and the spurious stuff that I've had to snip which currently resides in the trash thread in trash forum.
there I requested people for the objectives of this thread and later for a proper opening post for this thread but there was no reply I could use.
I had to lock that thread ASAP and start a new one before everyone had managed a soosai blast ! hence the less than elaborate setting of agenda.

if you (or anyone else) are willing to pen a concise and lucid opening post for this thread I would be more than happy to incorporate it in the opening post.
regards.

On the other hand, "how to elect capable leaders" is an insult to the electorate who are thereby being dismissed as beings incapable of choosing "rightly".

on this I disagree. the electors do the best they can choosing between one crook and another.
it is the parties themselves that give election ticket to undeserving candidates, that is no fault of the electorate per se. if the parties themselves stick to a minimum acceptable standard while choosing candidates, it is my 'belief' that the electorate will do a decent job most of the time.

[Rahul Mehta]

How do you define "loyalty to the country"?

TRIVIAL.

1. Loyal to Constitution as interpreted by citizens (not judges)
2. Loyal to Indian citizens
3. hunts down external enemies
4. hunts down internal enemies - violent criminals, tax evaders and corrupt
5. No corruption

Election does not guarantee choice of capable leadership. In fact under many circumstances, elections will guarantee mediocre capability in leadership - and specifically eliminate more capable leadership. Capable leadership more often than not is "imposed" from "above" or "outside". Elections are limited by the envisioning capacity of the electorate.

------

the electors do the best they can choosing between one crook and another.

AWMTA .

it is the parties themselves that give election ticket to undeserving candidates, that is no fault of the electorate per se. if the parties themselves stick to a minimum acceptable standard while choosing candidates, it is my 'belief' that the electorate will do a decent job most of the time.

The anti-democracy people say that parties pick candidates who are most likely to win. And parties pick bad guys because people want bad guys. Pls note - it is their logic, not mine. My logic is : when judges are corrupt, the bad guys will thrive and good guys will flee away. And so parties will have no choice but to pick one of the bad guys who are still left in the field. So unless we fix laws first and get rid of bad guys, elections wont improve. And we citizens *can* fix laws without waiting for next elections. But all that is OST and so I will stop.

Election + Recall guarantees BEST avaialble procedure to get the best men in place.

[brihaspati]

Rahul Mehta
brihaspati wrote:
How do you define "loyalty to the country"?
TRIVIAL.
1. Loyal to Constitution as interpreted by citizens (not judges)
2. Loyal to Indian citizens
3. hunts down external enemies
4. hunts down internal enemies - violent criminals, tax evaders and corrupt
5. No corruption

RM, no intention of fencing with you. I don't think its that simple. "Interpretation of Constitution" by citizens will depend on individual citizens, or subgroups - there is no guarantee of uniformity of interpretation. And you will also need to specify the order of preference/priority/precedence that exists between 1,2,3,4,5. Loyalty to an Indian citizen comes lower in priority when that citizen has been judged an "internal enemy" - 4 >>2 ? There can be cases where different ordering become necessary? Will not that ordering be itself the result of values not stated here? Can such value-systems be guaranteed to be uniform? What is the resolution procedure for contradictions between two value-systems? If you really want to clarify, please do on NBJPRE thread.

I do seriously think, that Rahul M should be given the opportunity to resolve the actual issue that led to disruption of the previous thread. The thread itself was not at fault, but lack of restraint from quarters over which the general poster has no control - was primarily responsible. Unless that is sorted out internally, the same thing will happen again. Any greater detailed outlining of the topic basically closes off avenues of possibly rational and relevant discussion.

[RayC]

What constitutes capability?

What constitutes loyalty?

What constitutes a country?

What constitutes Leadership?

What constitutes Strategy?

And what is the Future that one is aiming at?

These are the basic issues which are not being addressed!

Unless these are addressed, it would not serve the purpose of the title of this thread and confining it to elections would be skirting the periphery or else the title should have been made appropriate to elections and its importance to building a robust country.

History and culture is an important backdrop for the conditions of the present. It also impacts the future. However, they are not, to my mind, the sole criterion to what should be the path to the future.

One has to have vision to chart the path to the future and not merely dwell in the past.

What is that vision?

Since the past is known, one likes to dwell in it with sagacity and elan. The future to my mind is what is important since it affect us as a country!

Resolution of the contradictions from the past that manifests itself in the present is necessary to have a bright future!

[RayC]

Quote:
On the other hand, "how to elect capable leaders" is an insult to the electorate who are thereby being dismissed as beings incapable of choosing "rightly".

On this I agree with Rahul M.

I would indeed be surprised if the average Indian understood what Montek Singh Ahluwalia is stating or even the effects of the Nuclear deal or the issue of the Maoists!

And yet, his vote decides!

I would like to appreciate realities and not what should be the reality!

I would like to say that it is typical Arundhuti Roy statement. Good upfront but totally bogus!

[Rahul M]

just for the record, ^^^ that is not my comment.

[RayC]

just for the record, ^^^ that is not my comment.

Sad what?

Such comments gets attributed and sticks!

And then one gets tar and feathered!

That is how the pennies fall!

[Umrao Das]

The problems in BJP now are more organizational than ideological. They have incompetent people in BJP

That in itself is Strategic short coming. no?
So what future does it hold to itsellf forget India. no?

[SwamyG]

there I requested people for the objectives of this thread and later for a proper opening post for this thread but there was no reply I could use.

Sorry I saw your request late. Though a good summary is appropriate, sometimes quoting the gurus straight keeps things simple and clear. So here are three posts that I like to quote:

Here is a good post from the previous avatar that defines the terms. Shiv saar as usual does a good job of setting up things.

Two words there

1) Strategic
2) Leadership

I will leave out "leadership" as self explanatory.

"Strategic" is the ability to think strategy. This cannot be explained simply but I will try.

A man with a shotgun aiming at a flying bird needs to quickly imagine in his mind's eye where the bird will be in the air at some future point in time and aim for that point.

Aiming for a desired effect at a future date, taking as many variables into consideration is "strategy". So one definition of strategy would be the ability to accurately aim at a moving target to be reached at a future date.

What would the "target" be for India, and at what date would be two pertinent questions to define strategy for India.

A target for India would have to be a national goal. Such goals clearly exist for civil India, but I do not see a concomitant urgency in backing up those civil goals with the necessary military power and robust (honest, just) governance required. This is due to both abject ignorance and condemnable corruption among our leadership.

In addition, my personal "punga" with strategy in India is not the lack of national goals, but a degree of "naivete" - perhaps even stupidity in my view, shown by the leadership with regard to known culprits like Pakistan, China and KSA. India has shown wariness with regard to the US, but has been terribly naive about Pakistan.

I believe that the "naivete" about Pakistan has certain psychological roots, including Indian suspicion of its own Muslims and a political inability to address Indian Muslims without thinking that they want bribery, sops and a misplaced feeling that all Muslims will be happiest (and not riot or run to Pakistan) if they are compelled to be 400% Islamic, pray 5x times daily and go to Madrassas. I think these are active mistakes that have been made in India. Indian politics has attempted to make Islamic poster-boys of Indian Muslims rather than citizens by dealing kindly but firmly.

Just my view.

And the creator of the first thread - Brihaspati - agrees with Shiv

Hats off to Shivji, again, for putting it in simple terms.

Strategic Leadership is a term frequently used by so-called business leaders. But it already is adpatable to military/geo-political scenarios as quoted by RayCji.

A simple starting point for "strategic leadership" in Indic context is a long-term, and India-wide clear perception of obstacles and objectives, and a long term commitment, will and capacity to carry out necessary steps. To a certain extent this does mean a difference in scale of thinking and operations, duration, compared to just "leadership" - leadership which simply thinks in short-term, localized, tactical terms - like our illustrious revolutionary Mr. Soren, perhaps. Just "leadership" looks at issues on a reactive basis, on a day-to-day basis, on an immediate local basis, cannot see or identify core problems or is not willing to solve them fearing the costs. Just "leadership" does not take any real initiative to solve fundamental problems thinking of pain and hardship or initial reverses and difficulties.

Examples of modern period past strategic leadership would be Abraham Lincoln, Gandhiji, Kemal Ataturk, Winston "racist p**" Churchill for Britain during WWII, Ho Chih Min for Vietnam, (there can be others....).

But foremost Brihaspati started the earlier version with these words

The idea for this thread comes from persistent laments in many threads about the lack of desired leadership, or desired qualities in a leadership seen to be necessary for India. However I see no thread to specifically concentrate on this issue, which is surprising if the lack of appropriate leadership is felt to be such a persistent itch.

Substituting the obvious management terms and entities of businesses and companies or rmultinationals, with groups, forces and ideological positions within India we can easily see that, very similar concepts can come up for discussion in our national life.

(1) Innovation as Strategy-The Indian Story : how should the future leadership of India innovate? how should we innovate to get future leadership?
(2) Globalisation of Indian Inc. : What should be the future strategy of leadership in this arena as applicable in the field of international politics? what type of leadership do we need? How do we create/prepare/get them?
(3) Strategy and Leadership-India in the 21st century.. The high velocity of change in the Indian setting, unique elements of the Indian environment, and key attributes of culture have engendered a different model of strategic leadership...The Indian style of [...] leadership, when compared to the developed counties, has one differentiating factor - the extent of coordination required by the CEO’s, and the need of getting into the trenches.”....that family business is still very under-researched, and that Indians are very family oriented and so leaders have to find out efficient ways of involving families and manage the interface of families. ( so relevant )

... value-creation in its essence is a transformational process.... is all about identifying transformational opportunities that creates something of significance....all are leaders and nobody is a follower.” (definitely - unique representation of what current leadership strategies mean by value creation )

“The central problem that India is facing is that of poverty, and it cannot be resolved by just volunteering or giving occasional advices. Fairly early, I decided that that’s a task I am going to address to, but as a professional,”.....

all important issues for the future strategic leadership - please do post all you want from your future leaders, how do you think such leaders can be found or trained or brought up, and what strategy should be followed by them in various arenas India as a nation will be expected to perform - internally as well as internationally.

[Umrao Das]

My friend sent his (variginal) contribution




All of the above needs leadership and followers.

Who When What Where and With what resources are to be addressed.

Mind you the execution part is recursive, circular, self evaluating, with feed back and feed forward, most importantly has to be agile, capable of learning, rsourceful, adpative, autonomus for quick turn around.

[KLNMurthy]

I don't think I need to say this to people on this forum, but still, since it hasn't been mentioned, I'll say it.

I hope we understand that when we say "we" should ensure this or that wrt Indian politics, that "we" is largely notional. "We" don't have enough power to change the social system, which is mostly organic and automatic and drifts in complex ways. Even powerful persons like PM, Sonia et al have limited ability to make change. Sure, one individual can make a decision that leads to massive and instant change (usually negative, e.g., a person with a JDAM can cause change) but the seeds for that effect to occur have been sown long back.

What we can do is to study and understand the various forces and factors that influence the survival and prevailing of India, in the sense of the land and the people and the states of mind, "as long as the moon & stars & sun shall shine." To me, this is the challenge of 'loyalty' is to make decisions that affect the long term, versus giving in to short term, localized success. If we are lucky, the study will present some practicable levers that can then be wielded with great effort and patience.

Maoists and other enemies of India do this kind of "study and understand" all the time, albeit with an eye to finding weaknesses that they can exploit to bring the system down. They have the methods and mindset to do this kind of thing, what they call "objectively understand", which is Maoist-ese for figuring out how they can win their war.

Since we are doing the opposite of waging war on India, our challenge is much much more difficult. Probably due to entropy or something.

Just some thoughts...

[Pulikeshi]

The first step in fixing something broken:
Identify what is broken and what the fixed version would look like.

It is not clear to me if the objective is to fix India -
The secular democratic country and the leadership that runs this entity.

or

is it the end goal to fix the civilizational substrate of India aka Bharat -
The leadership in the civilizational space that is the cradle of the current nation-state.

What is broken? What needs fixing? Riddle me this?
Right now we are targeting everything, perhaps everything is broken!

[Umrao Das]

Nothing is broken.... ( hwo? because! we are like that onlee)
we need updates/ revamp the system
we need a little bit of integrity is scoiety

thats all.

[Bharath.Subramanyam]

"Actually Congress isnt particularly better as far as that is concerned is it? Or most other parties, or do you think BJP has higher amount of incompetency, if so why?"

Quote:
The problems in BJP now are more organizational than ideological. They have incompetent people in BJP
That in itself is Strategic short coming. no? So what future does it hold to itsellf forget India. no?

When I mean competency I meant the cleverness & shrewdness in understanding how people vote, managing perceptions, managing media etc. Congress is awesome in understanding of castes and it use in electoral politics, it manages media & perceptions (though many people might not agree to the way these things are done by Congress party). Even by unethical methods political parties retain power and expand their base.

When I mean competency in BJP, it should have the shrewdness in expanding it geographical base without much corruption. For that you need people who are smart & who think practical ways of growing.

Mao Se Tung & his Chinese communist party are not paragons of virtue. But they captured power in China and then consolidated it. Now they also are moving to take on entire Asia.

I will share some information I got yesterday on how some people in BJP are clever &shrewd (don't know whether it will help them electorally):

=============================================

Advani is refusing to resign his post till once of his coterie is made the President. It looks like Mohan Bhagwat is fighting a losing battle. Though Mohan Bhagwat has said that the president will come from outside of Delhi in Aaj Tak interview, he may have to eat his words.

RSS is trying to negotiate that it will give it President Post to Advani’s supporter but it can be only Narendra Modi. It looks like Narendra Modi himself will be asked by the powerful Delhi group to convince the RSS that Jaitley should be made President.

It seems to stop the RSS effort to changing the BJP leadership, Advani camp came up with a brilliant idea where it said that ruling Chief Ministers & deputy CMs should vote as they bring the mass support. In that, the Advani camp managed to get the votes of Sushil Kumar Modi (Bihar Deputy CM), Punjab BJP president & Modi. The Chief Ministers of Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh & Himachal Pradesh were not in favor of Advani camp. So it became 3 – 3 tie between Advani & RSS. The remaining Chief Minister of BJP is Yeddyurappa was expected to go with RSS as he is in very close to RSS leadership & way of work.

Then Advani camp did a smart engineered crisis in Karnataka to cut Yeddyurappa to size. Yeddyurappa was naïve and got tricked.

Karnataka crisis:
Ananth Kumar meets Reddy brothers and tells them what to do and then goes to meet Jagadish Shettar. Ananth Kumar who is from the same town of Jagadish Shettar (It seems it is Ananth Kumar’s mother who got Jagadish Shettar in to BJP many years ago) meets and tells him what to do. After the crisis starts, the most amazing move is to make Yeddyurappa to come to Jaitley for help. Yeddyurappa is naïve and believes that Jaitley can help him and asks for help.

This is where Advani camp is very smart. Swapan Dasgutpa also pitches in and helps. Instead of going to RSS, Yeddyurappa who didn’t understand the trap went to Delhi. Already it had been decided that this crises will be solved on “Nov 8th – Advani Birthday”. Slowly Yeddyurappa understands that it a trap but it is too late. The crisis is resolved on Nov 8th with Advani gracing it on his birthday.

V.S Acharya is a nice guy, so he escaped. Shobha Karandlage has done excellent work as Rural Development minister. She has learnt from Narendra Modi’s work. Of course there are ego and personality issues. But she has brought in thousands of Check Dams, irrigation facilities in a short time. She is actually a good candidate for coming years. Let’s hope that somebody will continue her good work.

Outcomes are: Yeddyurappa who was getting into dynasty mode has been stopped on Dynasty politics. Now those Reddy brothers know that their name has been tarnished by media so badly every where they would really have to build the houses they promised. They would also have to work to get a name back. Sushma Swaraj will head the co-ordination committee and will keep Yeddyurappa in check.

The RSS has been out maneuvered.

The most amazing stuff in all these things is that Advani stubbornly refusing to quit unless his nominee is made President. His earlier nominee Venkaiah Naidu was not up to the mark. Many a times he was a rubber stamp for Advani. Then during 2005 Jinnah crisis, Advani brought in Rajnath Singh. He has been a disaster.

But Arun Jaitley has shown that he has competence and has proved it many a times. But their ruthlessness might alienate some party members. They are so hungry for power that they many a times compromise ideology in front of cameras.

But if Arun Jaitley stops his leaking habit & his habit of planting new against other BJP leaders, then he can gain credibility. If Jaitley works to get BJP broaden its geographical base in Andhra, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc it will be great. Jaitley has competence and listens to good advice.
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[vera_k]

The RSS has been out maneuvered.

Eh? Who would vote for the BJP if the RSS asked people to back other candidates? The RSS needs to become savvy and publish its endorsements.

[Manish_Sharma]

It is plain & simple : incompetence in various levels.

Actually Congress isnt particularly better as far as that is concerned is it? Or most other parties, or do you think BJP has higher amount of incompetency, if so why?

I think in Indian Subcontinent for any party to rule, they need an Icon/Star. This is the main difference now between BJP and Congress. With ABV retired, the BJP doesn't have an Icon anymore.

If Gandhi clan had not decided to join active politics after PVN then Congress would be in same position. See when PVN became PM then Arjun Singh, Pawar, ND Tiwari etc. started rebeling on the lines of why not me? There personal egos start clashing with each other. Gulam Nabi won't be able to stomach Jayram Ramesh or PC or Kamal Nath becoming PM, same regarding each of them. But all of them will be willing to work under Gandhi Clan or somebody blessed by Gandhi Clan.

Now ABV was not only unchallanged Icon in the party but also a mass leader loved by all....... well almost all. A charismatic loved uncle like Utpal Dutt, Om Parkash or Dileep Kumar in Karma. People would never get tired of these charismatic personalities.

Advani is an Icon within the party, but not a mass leader so couldn't get necessary votes + plus concentrated too much on making his own image in the eyes of electorate as not so hardliner, thus failing to campaign on highlighting the failures of Govt.

The second thing is the funds available to Congress from CIA + Vatican channels. I remember how after pokharan the whole media went agog with high prices of onions during ABV. I think that was managed by Unkil money channels. While so much price increase happened during Congress but hardly any shorgul. Some people are also suspecting the rigging of electronic voting machines. I think after POK II, Unkil decided to never let India's so called Right wing Party BJP to return to power.

Just like Congress the leaders in BJP currently Sushma Swaraj, Jaitely, Venkiah Naidu or Rajnath won't accept each other as PM, no and none is very likeable compared to ABV.

[Pranav]

But Arun Jaitley has shown that he has competence and has proved it many a times. But their ruthlessness might alienate some party members. They are so hungry for power that they many a times compromise ideology in front of cameras.

But if Arun Jaitley stops his leaking habit & his habit of planting new against other BJP leaders, then he can gain credibility. If Jaitley works to get BJP broaden its geographical base in Andhra, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Kerala etc it will be great. Jaitley has competence and listens to good advice.
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Arun Jaitley may be ideologically compromised. It was interesting how he scurried off to London amidst the turmoil in the immediate aftermath of the general elections, ostensibly to watch a cricket match. There are a number of Freemasons in the legal fraternity, and one wonders whether he is one. Anything to do with Londonistan is the kiss of death.

I believe there were allegations that Arun Jaitley had sabotaged the sting operation at the time of the nuke deal confidence vote.